The Exit Engine Podcast Episode 52: Meet Svenja Floberg Thiel

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Welcome to the Exit Engine Podcast, episode 52. Svenja, one of the things that I loved about our discussion was your approach to working with founders and business people in terms of their ability to be able to Now, I'm going to say it this way, in a kind of an American thing, but it's like, you know, to check themselves, right? There's this— there is a, uh, a very— exit planning, exiting, okay, is a highly emotionally charged situation that most people are never prepared for. There are all kinds of people out there, and some are tougher than others, and some are obviously more in touch with their own feelings and their own selves and others and all that stuff. So it does kind of fall over the map, right, John? But at the end of the day, I think that most people are not prepared for emotionally for the loss and, uh, and the change, right? Is, is that been your experience?

Yeah, because it's not, I don't sell my business every day, right? So, um, right. It's for some people, um, it's a once in a lifetime event. So, and, um, I think the main issue is that so much of our identity and so much of who we are is tied to our business, is tied to our status, is tied to our work. And, um—

Very true.

Yeah, why we are not, um, prepared for is now everything where I found my identity is lost. And who am I without my business? Who am I without my work? Incredible.

And what do you— what's your answer to that? You know, what is your answer to people when they, when they sort of hit that realization or they think about it before or they deal with it after?

Most, most deal with it after, if they deal with it, right? This is the main problem. So sometimes I don't have an answer. Sometimes I just sit with them. And think about really this situation of I tied my self-worth, my identity to something external. And do I want to continue with this? So if the decision is yes, I want to, then let's find something new. But what if we use this moment of truth? this moment of pause to think about, OK, do I want to continue this? Or is it a moment to find my self-worth, my identity inside myself?

Right, right.

Outside this, outside the participation in a job or something external, is you're looking to find that sort of drive or things that motivates you sort of intrinsically or internally.

Yeah, so, and you can see it right now, right? There are a lot of people who don't sell their business in the moment, but there is a lot of insecurity in the world right now because so much is tied to our businesses. And most of the people out there don't have grown really deep roots in themselves. So, and now everything which gives me structure and security is shaking, and what do I do now? Yeah. So, yeah.

Even when it's a positive, and this is the thing, I think people, everybody thinks of this as a positive thing, right? Yeah. When you're selling your business, and obviously, by and large, it is. It's, it's, it's money. It's, you know, it's, uh, it's relief sometimes. Um, right. Certainly, uh, you're, you're, you're, you might be moving into a new challenge or a new situation in your life. Maybe you're gonna travel, maybe you're gonna spend more time at home, whatever that is. Um, and that transition Right, can be a little sticky.

Right.

The one of the things that we counsel our clients through all the time is, is to have a plan first.

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's the best case, right? But it's like when most people think, oh, I want to sell my business, it's probably they want to do it now and not in 2 or 3 years, right?

So exactly right.

When we think about small and medium business owners, so not every one of them really has the foresight to say, hey, I want to do it in 5 years. Can we start today to make it really a smooth transition?

Right. Yeah, that's exactly the way that we sort of, we'd like to work with business owners. But the reality is, is just what you said, is they have some type of, we have the 5 Ds, we have burnout. There's all sorts of triggers that come along with That when people get in touch with us to say, oh, I want to, you know, I'm burned out, I want to sell my business. And that's the exact time that you can't do it, right?

That you're—

when you're burned out, you don't want to sell your business when you just want to get it done, right? You want to sell your business in a very purposeful way to think about it, to say, to maximize the value you get.

Yeah, yeah, true.

So guys, welcome to the ExitEngine Podcast. Where founders, owners, and entrepreneurs come to unlock the secrets of building, growing, and ultimately exiting their businesses on their own terms. I'm your co-host, Jo Stapleton, along with my partner in crime, as always, Jon Kniff. Hey, Jon, how are you today?

Jo, how are you?

Awesome. Very cool. We are the founders of ExitEngine and also the co-founders of a firm called Exio Advisors. And every week we're sitting down with business leaders, advisors and visionaries to talk about what it really takes to design an exit that aligns with your goals, your values, and your life after business. Today's guest is someone who brings rare depth and resonance, really, to the entrepreneurial conversation. And I think that one of the things that's so cool about Svenja and why it's so important is that this is not the— I don't think this is the typical thing that business people are often talking about or in a room to discuss. And that is this notion of the emotional side of selling your business. And I think particularly for men, right, John? It is a sticky wicket, should we say, in terms of the ability to be able to kind of wrestle with that stuff, those feelings and things like that, especially because as men, normally we have a hard time kind of dealing with that stuff. But traditionally, I think women probably have a better handle on it, but still, We've just been through a deal, right, where there was incredibly high kind of emotional weight to it. And so we've got a lot of firsthand experience on that. So we'll touch on that a little bit today. But let me introduce Svenja first. So today's guest is Svenja Floberg-Thiel. She's a transformational coach, identity strategist, and founder of Roots and Wings, a coaching and retreat experience designed to guide founders and creatives through their deeply personal journey of building businesses that align with their values, identity, and energy. She works at the intersection of business and soul. I love that, right? Where scaling a company doesn't mean burning out and where your brand is an expression of who you truly are. Svenja's work speaks directly to the dark night of the soul. And we're going to talk about what that is in depth.

I love that.

Many founders face this, right? I have been there. You have been there. We have all kind of faced this and we're putting a name on it. And I think we'll talk about that in depth. But that dark night of the soul is that moment when outward success no longer feels aligned with inward truth, right? It doesn't— what I'm doing no longer seems to match who I feel like I am or what I want. It's a reckoning, a quiet but powerful invitation to rebuild from the inside out. So Svenja helps leaders not only build what they want but become who they need to be to sustain it. So if you're a founder, Who's ever felt trapped by your own ambition or confused about what's next? Then I suggest you listen to this entire episode from beginning to end. Let me welcome Svenja Floberg-Thiel. Svenja, thank you so much for being on the Exit Engine podcast.

Thank you so much, Joe, for inviting me, and thank you, John, for inviting me. And I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Thank you so much. Let's let's just jump right into this dark night of the soul because. This is just— this is something that I've written about and the thing, it's something that we kind of bonded over.

Yeah.

And so many people go through this and they really don't know what it is. I think a lot of people will refer to this kind of feeling or this kind of episode as a midlife crisis.

Hmm. Yeah.

And I'm not sure that's a good name. And I think it's also— I think what comes along with this kind of idea of finding yourself, right, becomes a matter of— it comes with age, it comes with looking back. potentially, and seeing where you've come from and where you are right now, where you still have to go, the decisions that you've made, the things that are around you right now. There's so much stuff that kind of enters into this. But talk about what you're— what you feel is the dark night of the soul and what it means to found in the founders context.

Hmm. I think the main, the main issue is that we separate our professional life from our private life.

Mm-hmm.

And I think especially in the Western world, we are really highly focused on our work and outcomes and effectiveness. And we, at some point in history, we separated this spiritual part of our human nature from our professional part. And what we lost on the way is to understand that humans are a part of nature, which means we are designed to grow our whole life. It's not that I decide for a job or a business and then I do this till I go to the grave. So, and to keep this in mind is To, to put this in the right place with the dark night of the soul, to understand this is a process of growing roots, growing wings, for example. And I will experience this a few times in my life. And the less resistance I have against this time, the easier or the smoother it gets. So—

Let me jump right in there. Because I think there's something I want to tease this out. This is something that's really important, I think, So, A, it does happen kind of like more than once, potentially, especially for high-performing people.

Yeah.

And I think that's one of the things. And you talked about the Western world and our belief in value, creating value and productivity, right? And that kind of thing and the way that we've separated ourselves and kind of compartmentalized. And of course, we'll get into this too, I think, but there is definitely a difference in terms of the way it's handled between men and women.

Right.

But at the same time, I think one of the biggest things that, that, that jumps out to me is the fact that this is the kind of thing that you just— what you just said was the ability to not resist it.

Yeah.

Is actually the secret to being able to deal with it effectively.

Yeah. Right.

And it's— and as a human, it's the— especially with a feeling thing, and especially as a man, it's probably one of those things that potentially you, you, your natural proclivity is to try to, uh, to resist it, right? Is to push it away, to deny it, right? As opposed to— and it's very hard to be able to let it actually happen, right? It's— there's so much that I, I think I'm in control of, and this, this feeling feels very much like I'm out of control.

It's out of control. And especially, I think especially men think in this phase I have to become someone else. I need to change. And we all know if men don't want to change, they, they don't change.

Right.

And I think it's also a challenge for most people. They are afraid what comes next. Will I, will I lose my wife? Will I lose my job? Will I lose my business when I allow this refinement process? through. So, because in the end, the dark night of the soul is, for most people, it's 3 stages. It's this awakening or this disrupting moment, then you have a purging moment where everything gets cleaned out, and then you have expansion. And it's always these 3 steps. So, and to understand, okay, probably now I'm in awakening. So after the business contract is done, okay, Oh, now I'm without my business. Who am I now? And then you go through this purging moment. And then after this, when you have cleaned up everything, then you have this expansion moment. And there is a lot of time when you don't know what comes next. There's a lot of time when you can't control what comes next. And especially for men who have a natural tendency to be the one who's in control and in charge.

Yeah, right.

Well, let me ask you about that exactly what you just said, uh, Svenja. So, so when you're— you said 2 things that really interest me is some people change during this period and they think that they— that men are not men, but people, they change drastically during this period. So like, what's an example of that? Or how does that sort of manifest itself in sort of your experiences? What are they changing into and what are they sort of either hoping to control or sort of get away from?

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Pick up these mail What I experience is that people realizing in these moments, oh, the people who surround me, probably my wife, my partner, or the people I spend time with, my friends, don't fit me. So I don't have something in common with them. So when they really stop and pause and look around and see, okay, what is going on here? They realize that they are in the wrong story, for example.

Huh.

So this happens often because we follow all the rules, we follow all the checkboxes, and we do everything right without checking in with ourselves. And also sometimes what happens is each human have a specific type of needs. So, and we are not really good in touch with our needs in our current world right now. So when I live the wrong story, I have always this feeling of dissatisfaction. Most people have this. And in the moment when you are in this purging moment, when you realize, okay, what are my needs really? Oh, the people around me don't suit my needs. Then you have to decide, what do I do? Do I continue this or do I change it?

And so the purging that you're talking about is, is purging either yourself or the people around you, the world around you, of, of what? Just, just expand upon that a little bit because I'm not quite clear about when you say purged, what is being purged and sort of what is being reborn or, or rebirthed?

Um, I would say the whole process of, of the dark night of the soul is like a rebirth. Purging is from me and what I experience in my work is more about how do I spend my life and my day from every day, and does this fit the life that I want to live?

Right.

And most importantly, what are my needs, truly my basic needs that I really need? Some people, for example, spend the whole time with, with big friends groups, and they realize, okay, no, I just want with one person, for example, but I lived it, and I'm wondering why I'm drained the whole time. So to really get to understand what are my needs and what, who, and what does, um, this fill.

I think too, to, to be clear, I, I don't think— Svenja is not recommending that you purge the people in your life, right? Or that you get rid of your wife.

That's not—

but the feeling Okay, and this is why what happens during midlife crises, okay, is that because people start to wander, they start to go towards things that they're finding are somehow— they feel are somehow more in alignment with where they are right now compared to the person that they have been with for 20 or 30 years, okay, where there are conflicts and there are things and there are, you know, who knows, everybody's marriage is different and things like that. But the reality is that that's This is what is happening is this notion of the feeling of, I feel out of alignment with my soul purpose. And it's easy to look at when I start to examine my life, which is what happens. Okay, you start to sit there whether you want to or not and start to go, okay, why am I feeling like this? What do I do? I go and I buy, you know, buy the— I try to go and relive childhood experiences, right? I try to go back and Let's go. And, you know, there are ways that you can do this that are like healthy, right? And then there are ways that most people do it, which are kind of unhealthy, which are go fill my life with stuff and cars and, you know, an affair or whatever keeps me— because it makes me feel alive and new and revitalized, right? And so I think what we're talking about today is how do you avoid that, right?

Yeah.

It's so easy to go down that path. And I think what Savenia's teachings does is say, hey, look, let's think about this ahead of time, right? And let's understand that this is going to happen, or if it is happening to you, there's a way through it that is healthy, right? Right. Makes sense, Savenia, right?

Yeah, it's, um, it's exactly what you said. Most people right now deal with it— I change my partner, I change my friends, I buy the Harley-Davidson, I buy the cars, and probably I move in a different city and hope everything will be fine, is directing myself with new hobbies or something like this. And when I talk about the purging phase, it's more about to really get truth what you want, what you experience, and what you need. And then instead of changing everything in the outside, start to communicate what you need. So this is a way how you transform, for example, your environment with you. So they don't have to stay in the same place like you. They can grow with you in the moment when you start to say, hey, I know we did it the last 20 years in this way. I realized my need in this area is exactly this, and I would like to express it more. Can you help me with this, for example? Or what do you think about it? So it's not about to skip everything and to change everything. It's more about to recognize What is truth for you? And then to communicate this in the external world. This is the expansion phase, after you realize, okay, this is what is true for me. And then find ways to communicate this in a gentle way in the outside world. This is how you really transform into this new version.

Well, yeah, because again, it's a radical change for the individual going through. transformation. But it can be even more of a, of a radical change for the people around that person, right? Because it's, it's almost like you think the person, your partner, thinks that they know who you, who you are, what motivates you, what drives you. And if they've been with you for 20 years, as an example, and then all of a sudden, not all of a sudden, but over the course of a year or so, you sort of, you, because you appear different during this During the purging phase, you're doing things differently, I should say, and you're growing in a different way. So that, that can be sort of traumatic for people around the person going through this transformation, right?

Yeah, yeah, because the— you have a security with the other person, for example, also, and then out of a sudden the other person acts in another behavior. So I'm sure this creates insecurity and instability in the relationship, and We are not really relationships experts, most of us. So instead of talking about it, we start to get— develop grudges and arguing and all of these things.

That's right.

And we are not— it's this knowledge around the Dark Night of the Soul is not that you can hear it every day in the television or in the news, for example. So There's a lot of unknown ground around it.

It's, it's so— it's what's so difficult about it is that you don't know what's going on, right? So you are in this thing where you're like, so what we're trying to do today is, is to give this a name so that people can understand that they're in a thing. Oh, oh, okay. That's what this is, right? And that's because that's the first thing is the understanding. The next thing is to know that this is— it is a wake-up call. By the way, I truly believe this. I think that the reality is this is your inside you going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, look where you are. What? How did you get here? And where are we headed? What is happening?

Right.

And I think that when we— the disturb, as you bring up correctly, John, is to say, hey, look, all these people that I've had around me who I've been bringing with me, and if I'm an entrepreneur and I'm that kind of person who is You know, an out-front person who has got a lot of ideas and executes on those ideas and is self-motivated and all those things, right? That's— that is a— that is a person that seems from other people to be in control.

Correct.

I feel in control until I don't feel in control anymore. And now that's scary to me.

Yeah.

Now I'm afraid. So how am I reacting to that fear situation? I am going to convince myself, uh, it's somebody else doing this to me, or that I haven't been, uh, you know, that maybe that, that this is— that this has been wrong the entire time, and that I've, I've put up with all this stuff. And I start to look at excuses. I start to look for reasons, right? And those reasons, I don't start with me, right? I start with other people outside of me, and I start to look at them, and I start to say, you did this. And I resent you now for not showing up in the way I needed you to show up, except that I never told you how I wanted you to show up, mostly because I didn't know.

Yeah.

So now we're in a situation where because of this, and again, how do we tie this back to the business thing? Just to be clear, is that this happens a lot and is the cause for people to start thinking about, I want a different life than I have right now. And that causes people to start thinking about who own businesses to start thinking about their exit from their business and what they can do and what they can do next and everything else. And I think what we are trying to get through today, what Savenia has been so good at, is, as she said, we said, it's like, let's tie your soul, okay, who you are at your core, okay, what your purpose is with that, with the business.

Yeah.

Right? If you can, from the beginning, if you're lucky enough to be one of those entrepreneurs who from the beginning understands themselves to the point at which they can guide everything they do from who they are and into, you know, and kind of keep it in track on their, in terms of their, what they believe is their purpose and that alignment, everything kind of stays good. And maybe you don't get into a dark night of the soul situation. However, you still do, right? Because yeah, I mean, Sven, you tell us. Yeah. I mean, the reality is that that's, that's no matter what, even the question is recognizing it. And being able to deal with it in a healthy, productive way that's going to be best for everybody. And look, that doesn't mean you're— that doesn't mean you're with the right person. I'm not saying that, you know, everybody's individual thing is different. The question is a matter of just saying, but you have to get to a point where you say, I am clear on who I am and what I want. The next step is, can I communicate it to the people around me? Right. Understanding that it's a change and it's a process.

Right.

And can I get them on board the way that I got them on board with everything else I've done over the years? Right? Right. And so, but I've got to be clear first. And I think that's the hardest. Is that the hardest part, Svenja?

I would, yeah, I would say this is the hardest part, especially this communicating it with your close ones. Sure. Because there is a lot of insecurity. And finding the courage to speak up to them to say, hey, I'm in a phase, I don't know where we are heading. I don't know what is going on. And maybe I don't know who I am right now. But I will work through this. And hopefully, we will do it together.

And how do you recommend, like, or what's an example from, from your experience, Vinya, of, of working through that, right? Is the person's in that stage, how do they work through that and figure out sort of what they want to do next? What's the, what's the best way to do that? Or what's your What's your advice to do that?

Most people start in with a question, what do I want? And in this phase, this question is really big. And especially with today's multiple opportunities, it's mostly overwhelming. And I try to start really small with them and to say, okay, don't make it so big. Just let us focus on 3 months or a year, for example. And instead of asking, what do you want? ask yourself, what do I want to experience? So tie it really, um, connect it really to specific outcomes. And most of the business owners and founders are really good to, okay, I have a goal and I tie it to an outcome, because this is something where you can work towards, and it's not like this big, for example.

Sure.

And, um, the next one that I recommend is to think about in this specific moment, who do I want to become? It's really interesting that when I work with people on this topic, a lot of people know, oh, there are some specific characteristics that I would love to develop. And this is— I let them write it down. And how do I know, how do I feel when I am this person, for example? So, because most of us, we are really good in knowing our own weak points and the things that we don't do well. And most of us know also, oh, there are some things that I really want to embody. So, and just start with these 2 questions. What do I want to experience with my family, with my kids, in my private life, with my friends, in free time, maybe in business or in work? And the next step, who do I want to become? Are there any skills left that I would love to develop?

Very cool.

And these become very important questions as you start to, because I think a lot of times the process is this: I don't know what's wrong. What is this? I'm starting to lose my mojo. OK? And what is the mojo? That is the, you know, I'm not really, I'm showing up to work and I'm not really I'm not driven by it anymore, right? I don't feel the same get-up-and-go that I had. You know, they say that I got my get-up-and-go, got up and went, right? But the ability to be able to say, or to recognize that I'm in a place where what I'm doing for a living right now, the business, the whole thing, isn't— it feels unfulfilling anymore, right? It feels like there's more. I'm not getting the same feeling out of it that I was getting from the beginning. And maybe that's the excitement in the, you know, there are so many things. Some people are adrenaline junkies. Some people like the, you know, like to live on the edge. Some people like, you know, feel like their natural place is to be comfortable and make sure that everything's in order. So there's a, there's a different, you know, kind of personality type, you know, across the board. The same thing kind of can still happen. But I think what we're saying is This is feeling-driven. And I think that many people— this happened to me, you know, a few years ago, was the same thing where I realized all this thinking I'm doing with my brain. And okay, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm thinking about how to take all these disparate things or make people happy or do all this stuff all kind of at once. And the reality is it's very difficult to kind of like solve all this stuff kind of like in one shape, especially when you're unclear about who you are and what you want. And when Svenja says what you want, what she really means is what do you want to feel, right? The experience that you have. Do you want to feel more what? I want to feel closer to my family. I want to feel, I want to feel like I am, I have, I'm victorious. You want to feel like you are, like you are, you know, are there things that you wanted to experience out in the world that you haven't gotten to yet, like traveling or whatever those things are, right? The point is, is that whatever those things are for the individual, the notion here is I've got to, before I do anything, what I really should be doing, just like in exit planning, is sitting down and as part of my exit, we, Jon, we make it the first thing, right, in our process, in what we call exit mindset.

What are your goals, right? Like you just said, Sonny, you said you have to write it down, right? And we love when people write things down because you write things down, you put it on paper, You put it in a document and then you either go towards that and try to achieve that goal or you avoid it. And then if you avoid it, well, you kind of have your answer. If, if you didn't achieve something in 6 months you wanted to achieve and you wrote it down 6 months before, you didn't do it, well, there's a reason for that.

And what I really recommend is, um, write down everything on paper, really on cards, and hang it around your apartment so that you can really see it every day. And especially when you think about an exit, um, and you ask the question, okay, after the exit, do you have a strategy? Do you have a plan? What are your goals after this? Write it all down, put it on your kitchen shelves or something like this, and allow yourself also to change. Even if you write it once down and you thought, maybe I want to sail the world, and after 4 weeks I realize, okay, I don't want this, it was a stupid idea. Allow yourself To change it every time.

We're borrowing—

yeah, sorry, we're borrowing that. Sorry, we didn't interrupt. We're borrowing that. We're going to write it down and put it up all over our apartment. We will give you credit, but we are going to write— we're going to do that because I, I love the idea of me— like, it's almost like when you're trying to lose weight and you put yourself— my dad did this at one point. He put a picture of himself— he was trying to lose weight— he put a picture of himself when he had like 20 extra pounds on him on their refrigerator. So every time you open the refrigerator, he'd be like, wait, I don't want to do this. And I like the idea of seeing it. Like, you look on your wall, you look in your kitchen, you look in your office, and with the knowledge that you certainly can change it. But like, that's your goal at this point. And if you review it and you want to change it, that's fine. But have something written down. I love that.

Especially when you think about people who are, for example, 40 years in their own business. And now they sell their business and they really don't know what's next. What I recommend is write down your ideas, and every time you have an idea, put a Post-it on the wall and look at all of the Post-its, all of your ideas, a few times a day. After a few days, you realize something because you realize, oh, the ideas from the first day, no, I don't want to do this. But this idea from day 3, Yes, this is something that I want to do. It helps our mind to calm a little bit down, not to be overwhelmed with everything that is possible, and to just allow myself in this in-between process to get in touch with the things really that are really for me in this next phase.

Yeah, well, because it's interesting, because what I think what you're describing too, and, and maybe I'm just making this personal to myself, into myself, is it's almost like what you're advising people to do is really understand what they want to do, not what either society or other people think that you should be doing, right?

Yeah.

So it's like, should I, should I, you know, go after, you know, whatever? Should I run my own business? Should I, should I sell this business now because my partner wants to retire, or whatever it happens to be? And should I look to Externally the things I should, I should be doing, or do I really need to refocus and think about the things internally that really would make me happy with the next stage of your life, right? Because a business owner naturally, I think the natural extension for a business owner, and we, we see this all the time, Joe, is like, all right, what are you going to do next? Okay, I'm going to buy the next business. I'm going to sell this business and I'm going to buy the next business. Where in reality, what the— what you're advising, I think, is you sell the business. What do you want to do next? You have an opportunity, the perfect opportunity to pause and sort of refocus everything to think, maybe I have to start a not-for-profit. Maybe I want to retire. Maybe I want to travel, do those things. Maybe I do want to set up a new business, but like really be, be, be conscious about what that next step is for the entrepreneur.

Even, even if the next step is, I don't know if I want to start a new business yet.

Yeah.

Right? You, you don't have to know for sure. Well, I think what Svenja is saying is, but here are the things that are possible. And what I would recommend on top of that, I think, Svenja, you might back me up on this, when I look at those things, it's not about a thought, right? It's about how does it feel in my body?

Yeah, yeah. I think, um, we have to understand there are needs and wants. And most of us, we are so trained to follow and chase wants and forget our needs. And when you look at the, at the mental health state of men, no matter if they're founders, if they're business owners, but we have a tremendous rate of really a chaotic state of mental health for men. And men are, I don't know, 3, 4, 5 times higher in suicide than women.

Wow.

Then we have to— I don't know exactly the, the, the numbers, but it's really higher than women. Then we have to understand, okay, there's something fundamentally wrong in our systems. And maybe it's because we trained men so much on chasing the wants, the next big thing, instead of understanding their own needs. And the moment when someone sold this business that's really a moment where you can ask yourself, okay, I built what I thought I wanted, and maybe now it's time to build what I need.

Mm-hmm.

So, and really to use this moment of stillness to understand what do I as a man really need. So when I really, when I work in this topic, I focus first and foremost on the 3 stages of the hierarchy of the needs. Most people know this, you can Google it probably online. And when people come to me and say, oh, I'm so dissatisfied, dissatisfied, I don't like my job, I don't like my wife, I don't like my wife, I don't really work with them in the first moment. I just ask them, okay, when was your last right meal? When did you exercise the last time? When did you spend time outside in the nature? When did you spend really quality time with your family, with your friends? And first, we really focus on these areas before we do anything else, because most of the time when we fix the, the needs in these areas, most of the problems really dissolve themselves. So you don't have to buy a Harley, you don't have to change your partner, you don't have to change your apartment.

Mm-hmm.

You just have to fill your cups. And this is something that we are really bad in our society. It's also when you think about it from a systemical perspective, unfilled cups is the driver of our economy. So most business models are based on that people are in the need deficiency. Is that the right word? In the need deficit?

Yeah, there's a deficit. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. No. It's not the wants, it's the needs that are unfulfilled.

It's the needs, yes. And if you understand this, and especially for men, um, and you, you really get into this, you can change the whole story.

So yeah, it's, it's so interesting that, yeah, that when you think of it from the needs and the wants perspective, right, like when people are, are constantly seeking, or they think that they, they confuse those 2 things, right? They confuse the needs with the wants. And when they're Just acquiring things and doing things and just being, you know, thinking that they're getting their needs when they're actually just sort of acquiring different things. That's, that's a huge problem.

And this moment of the dark night of the soul, I believe that this is also its cause, that we are denied our needs for too long. And then there's this moment where our body, our soul said, no more. I'm out of this game. So we have to change something.

Sure.

Right. So talk a little bit about, uh, about Roots and Wings, um, you know, in terms of a kind of an approach and that kind of thing. I, you know, I, I love what you're doing that, you know, you work particularly with creative entrepreneurs, right? Like, um, what is about this kind of like, you get in the same context, The pause, right? The ability to, before you move on to the next thing, right? Like you said, it's the purge, it's that kind of stuff. But the reality is, what you, what you recommend to most people is that they, that they just, they actually just stop and wait, right? Maybe sometimes action is not the right thing to be doing.

I think roots and, oh no, roots and wings is my, the approach, how I coach people, how I work with people.

Mm-hmm.

And I was in this situation 2017 or 2016. I had everything. I had a beautiful apartment in the city of Munich. I had a relationship. I had a leadership position in the insurance industry. And I felt something is off and this is not the right life. So, and I quit my job and said to myself, or I promised myself, I will figure out how to live a life in alignment that it feels good. So, and I realized, I mean, I'm one of the first Generation Y, and I realized something, there's something different in work. And I really couldn't make sense out of why should I work 40, 50 years in a job that doesn't really fulfill me, and then I'm in retirement for when I'm lucky, 20 years. It doesn't make sense for me, really. It was so confusing, and this was a moment where I started to think about, okay, is it possible to completely rethink the business approach or the work approach in the typical industries, for example, insurance industry, and to focus on our unique needs and values and gifts, talents, and to build a business around this. And this is the Roots and Wings approach to understand first self-knowledge and growing deep roots and building out of this. And since then, I help founders, most of them are creative founders, to think of their business in a different way, to place their human soul without the woo-woo, without being too spiritual, but really the needs, the values, the gifts in the center, and build around this to have a sustainable business over years. And for example, right now I have a coachee. I work with her 3 years, and she's still right now in a slightly phase of, Svenja, I want to skip everything and I want to change everything. So we have again some form of dark night of the soul.

Hmm.

And it's like when I think of this work, it's like you have a plant in a pot. So, and you water the plant and there is fertilizer and the plant is doing really well. So, and then at the moment where you have to decide to change the pot.

Mm-hmm.

So this, this is something that happened in business, right? We face so much challenges and so much problems. We solve it. And every problem we solve, every challenge we solve, it's like a little bit fertilizer on our personal growth. And one day the pot is too small and you have to change it.

Right.

So, yeah.

Well, let me ask you a question. Looking back on sort of what you changed, right? So, so you had this, this realization. You were in Munich. You had this realization. And now you have your life now. So In comparing those two, those two lives, right? Because they're really— you're, you're a, you're a transformed person now versus what you were then. What's like the— what are the 2 or 3 biggest changes that you, that you either are living your life the way that it is now? Like, what changed in your life, uh, in those, in those intervening years?

Um, I founded my own company. This is probably one of the most spiritual paths Ever, um, because I think especially if you're a solopreneur, you are constantly faced with, um, or challenged with several challenges. Um, I would say this is one of the biggest ones. Um, and the other one is that I show up differently.

Yeah.

I really— and it's a constant process. And I'll allow myself to develop this furthermore and furthermore, but more and more to get in touch with who you really are and how to communicate this in a gentle way with the world around you. And yes, this means sometimes you have to set boundaries in a new way, for example. Or what, what makes the biggest difference in my business is that Um, I can't work anymore in projects where I have the feeling we only do this because it's nice on the paper, or we have budget, for example. This is probably one of the biggest changes, to really be true to transformation and to understand, okay, this is who I am to the core. You only work with me if you really mean it serious. I can't do this Change makeup things, right?

So this must lead you— sorry, one more follow-up question. So this must lead you to reject a lot of clients, um, or no?

Not, not a lot, because after, after 8 years, a lot of people know exactly how I work and that I have, um, like these, let me say, work boundaries. So But in the beginning, when you're not really clear on the value that you create for other people, yes, it happens sometimes.

Yeah. It's just funny that, you know, we—

so we're—

I'll speak for myself. I'm going through a transformation in this business that we're running now. And the fact that, like, you know, I always joked with Jo and joke with other people, it's like we're not a real business until we start rejecting clients and stop, like, deciding deciding that we don't want to work with somebody because, A, either we can't help them, or B, they don't want to commit to working with us in certain ways. So it's just, it's funny that I see a lot of your philosophy in a lot of the, you know, the boundaries that you set are like guide rails, right? It's like, I want to work with this set of clients, and if you don't want to work with me, that's fine. But like, Yes. this is the way that I work, and I'm not going to do something just to put it on paper. I, I, I can help these people. I can't help these people over here. And it's— boundaries is a good— is a— is a good way to think about it in my mind.

And, and by the way, also, we're not gonna just do it for the money. And I think that's, that's one of the biggest—

Exactly. Yeah, you said it. That, that's a much better way than I put it. You're exactly right.

Being able to say— I, I think the thing that we got to— and, and again, this is, you know, John and I've been around, you know what I mean? This is 30 years of, of business stuff and being, you know, in and out and whatever. We've all had our kind of ups and downs and the you know, that kind of stuff. I, I'm— I've been made no secret about my journey and the way that, you know, that, uh, and Savinia, you and I spoke specifically about it, um, you know, where, where there was a, you know, a very prolonged period of not understanding exactly who I was and where I was. And there was some trauma and some things, you know, that were at the root of that stuff and the ability to be able to get that stuff cleared out. Um, and then, and for me, I think the big thing for me personally was just the ability to be able to say, hey, look, I can— I know who I am and what I have, right?

Yeah.

What I'm going to do is I'm going to align myself. I'm going to allow the people that align with me to align with me and not try to chase people who don't, right? And that one thing, John, it was what led— it's what led me to John, frankly, you know, was I didn't— I was like, I don't care who shows up to this thing. I want these people to show up, you know, back at our old company, whatever. It's like, this is, this is whoever shows up. And guess who kept showing up? Right? And John kept showing up. Right? And, and we kept showing up together and we kept showing up in the same way. And so, when you talk about how you show up differently, that is, that, that's what that means, which is to say, hey, look, now I'm in a point where I am not going out and chasing people who don't, if you don't understand what we're trying to help people do, Right? And you don't think it's valuable. Well, yeah, I don't want you here because you're not— not only you're going to be— you're not going to get anything out of it, I'm going to feel not like I'm unfulfilled because I'm not helping you. And also, you're going to disrupt everybody else, right, who is here. It's like you don't want the kid in the classroom who's jumping up on the desk and making and disrupting and telling him how much that you don't want to be there, right? So, for us, it's— and that's kind of an extreme example, but I think overall, it's a matter of, yeah, if you— and we've gone through things, Jon, like, you know, I'm sure Svenja has too, and lots of people out there have, which is where you're saying, hey, look, I'm going to charge this much to do something. And people go, no, I don't want— that's too much. So, charge me less. And you say, okay, I'll charge you less. Guess what you've just done? Yeah.

Right?

You've just gone against your better angels, right? You've just basically put yourself in a position where now what you're doing— and again, your decisions often feel like life and death. And so I don't want to take those away, right? Because when you are in the middle of those things and you're trying to make a business go and you're in a— or grow and everything is tied up in that and you feel as if every decision you make could be a make-or-break situation, that's a very uncomfortable place to be.

Mm-hmm.

And what Savenius pointed out to me was that you don't have to be in that place, right? You don't have to be in that place.

I think, um, this moment, as we have this as a main topic of the dark night of the soul, is really, um, to understand truly who you are and for whom you create value.

And whom do I serve?

Also, also to learn to separate your self-worth from your value, because these two are different. And this moment really gives you the chance to understand who am I in this world and who do I want to be. And what you, you touched it in your conversation right now with healing also the trauma In the moment when you start in this process of purging, also releasing trauma, healing trauma, a lot of people work and work really hard and hustle really hard because this is the only way they feel validated.

Yeah.

Seen. A lot of men especially, the only way they feel seen is when they work hard, and when there is no hard work, They completely lost their sense of feeling seen and approval. Yeah. So, um, this, this unravels a bunch of other things that—

yeah, places where you don't want to go and feelings you don't want to have and stuff like that. And that starts— this is where it all starts to kind of fall apart, right?

Well, yeah, you're like, like the hustle culture, right?

The hustle culture is completely created out of trauma bonds and dysfunctional family systems. systems, and I don't know, the 1,000 topics more. So, and to, um, to add one specific point, John, what you asked me before, what really changed— I changed in the way I act with my clients. This is something really also what pops up when I heard about what Jo said, because when you understand who you are, you have a different kind of inner peace.

Mm-hmm.

And you have a different kind of communicating also with your clients. In my first life in the insurance industry, there were so much moments where I had a value conflict, in really big value conflicts. And I promised myself when I started my business, I will never again be in this value conflict for clients.

Yeah.

Not for people on the outside, not for my family, it's different, for my friends, but not for clients. I will never be in this position again. So, and it was a lot around type money especially, but, um, this is something that really changed. And this dark night of the soul helps you to develop a strong core, strong roots to stand behind and to act in integrity.

And right, to act with integrity, just like you said, and to say, this is what I will do, and this is what I will do with clients, and this is what I will not do for clients. And staying sort of, you know, staying firm on that when you've had experiences. And I think we've all had experience. I'll speak for myself. I've had experiences where clients wanted me to do something. It's like, no, I'm not going to. I'm not going to do that. But, but, you know, in my mind, I was saying that. But in the reality of it, I wish I could say that I said no, but I didn't. You know, I said, okay, yes, you know, we'll create a campaign to, you know, for baby seals, to club baby seals. I mean, terrible example, but like, I've never done that. But something where you feel horrible about afterwards or so bad about afterwards that you'll— you have the realization you're not going to do that again, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's that. And look, that Any of us who have been in the service business, right, we know what that's like when you are saying— you're saying no, screaming no in your head, and your lips are saying yes, right? And you're out there because why? Because you're afraid. You're afraid you're going to lose the business. You're afraid that they're going to think whatever, that you're— you've got other partners around you who are, you know, who are relying on you to make sure that this thing stays. There are all kinds of pressures, right? There's no lack. of pressure when you are a business owner. Okay? There is the pressure of the business itself in terms of sustaining it and all that stuff. There's the pressure of keeping your employees fed. There's the pressure that comes into play in terms of your own family. The pressure, you know, how much do we talk about work-life balance and what that is that doesn't exist? I prefer the term work-life integration because I think that's really closer to what it has to be, right? But the point is, is that these are what— these are the things out there, these pressures, these individual little things that are all kind of around us all the time. And a lot of them are created by society, right? They're human inventions. They are not natural situations, right? They're not created by, you know, the universe, right? They're not. They are all things that have been made by man. And we've backed ourselves into these corners. And then we want to scream about productivity. And the reality is, is that, you know, what we think we've, we've taught, we've taught all of our males in particular, is that if they are unproductive, meaning that they do not contribute directly to society in a meaningful way all the time, that they are valueless.

Yeah.

And that is a singular problem, okay, that has been created by man. Okay, I'm pretty sure that in every version, no matter what religion you subscribe to or whatever, you know, you know, uh, you know, kind of, uh, uh, whatever, um, you know, soul practice or whatever. Yeah, yeah, right. You, you look into, they will all boil down to this one thing, right? Which is that you are supposed to be in a line— alignment with your God, okay? Whatever that is. And the reality is most of us aren't. And there are— there will be times during the day when we are, when we are not. Right? Whatever. That the more we're not, the more problems we have.

Yeah.

Right. Those problems will show up in, in, in not as problems internally. They will show— they will, but you will ignore them. They will show up as problems in your business. They will show up with conflicts you have with other people. They will show up. Right. Those are the places. That's what those things are. Right. Misalignment.

Yeah.

And so what we've practiced here at ExitEngine is Between us and, you know, John and I have been not only alignment between us, but alignment in everything that we're doing. It's like, it's like, you know, I did a lot of brand work and the brand guide, right? You always want to make sure that the ideas that you created this big brand book and these are the rules around how you brand and what you said and how you talk and how you— where it looks and where it can be and where it can't be and all those things. And when you follow those guidelines, then you are protecting the brand and you are keeping it in alignment with what the stated purpose is. Well, why don't we be— why aren't we doing the same thing as human beings to ourselves?

Right?

Create your own My Jo Brand Book. This is who I am. Right? I'm going to write it down. And I'm going to— and then I'm going to play from that playbook.

Yeah.

If the thing doesn't align with this, then the thing doesn't happen. And that can work just as well in business and in, in, and, and in life. And that really, that's the crossover right there.

Yeah, it's— I really, I did a lot of research because I really wanted to understand why are we so bad in knowing ourselves. Um, but there is no really research around this. It's We have a— most of us have really amazing education, probably the best education ever in human history, with everything external, and we are so underdeveloped in our internal education.

So I, I think it's like, I think it's all the content, and I don't want to blame sort of content creation at this stage, but I think there's, there's so much knowledge in the world and there's so many people that are out there talking about what other people should do and what you should be doing that I think it's a little bit overwhelming to the self, right? The self has a, you know, you have your internal clock that you know, like, you know, you should be doing certain things and you shouldn't be doing things. But I think in the last 15 or 20 years is you have all the books of creation, all the knowledge of creation, all of the people that you see on TV and on social media Of telling you what you should be doing. You should be exercising more, you should be eating more. It's like it gets overwhelmed. The self gets overwhelmed by all those other voices. At least I'll speak for myself. That's what happens to me is like, wait, should I be doing that? Should I be walking 10,000 steps a day? Should I be eating more fruit? Should I be having more fiber? Should I, you know, all that type of stuff. It's, it's a little bit overwhelming to the internal clock of saying like, oh no, John, just keep doing what you're doing.

Keep doing it. This is the But this is the outside stimuli, right? And Savania's point is that, that, that conversation isn't about an outside world conversation yet. It will be a conversation you'll have with your spouse or with your friends or whatever about how you're going to now show up.

You got to do the internal stuff first, Joe, is what— yeah.

That's it, man. You know, and, and the ability to feel that stuff first is what is really key. That's the hardest part, I think, because it's— we've, we've spent our entire lives as males pushing that part of us down and away, right?

What were you gonna say, Sven?

Sorry. I, I think the main problem is that we are— most of us have a resistance for people who telling us what to do, especially as adults. So this is like, who you are telling me that I should walk 10,000 steps?

Me. Sorry, I'll raise my hand again.

And, um, I think the, the this era of gurus and people telling us what to do is really over. And what I was missing when I founded my own business was, okay, who are the people who, who lead differently? So, and I couldn't barely find people. And yes, you find some in the spiritual world, but this was on some level too woo-woo for me because I really love a business. I really love to be ambitious, and I love to be ambitious with my soul. It's really interesting when you connect. your spiritual soul and your professional knowledge, this is where really the magic happens. Because then is business more effortlessly— that doesn't mean you have to put the work in it, but it's really a different level of inner peace and outer satisfaction.

Right.

And this was the reason why I thought, you know, let me try this. Let me put values in the center. Let me try to put my purpose in the center, and then let me walk from there, and let's see if this works out. Because what I see is that we need more real-life examples, especially in the business world, from people who do it differently. So we need real-life examples from people, for example, who planned their exit a year or 3 years before and said, you know what, one day I sat down and wrote my whole plan after the exit, and this is how it looks People need to see that it's possible from real-life people and not from some-called experts who sometimes don't follow their own advice.

Right. That's an excellent, excellent point. We have always— and, Joanna, we, we've talked about this all the time, and we, we, we've absolutely strived, right, to be that. Like, we're not sitting here telling people what to do, right? We are saying— I think we've, we've consciously trying to make, make a way and make a Make the discussion happen, right? Let's have the discussion. Let's talk to the experts. Let's talk to people, you know, like Svenja and the guests, other guests we've had on the podcast. Let's collaborate with these people and get them— get lots of people's opinions on stuff, right? Because the reality is that it's always at the end of the day going to matter, going to be what aligns with your what resonates or what aligns with you. And there are different ways of doing things and different approaches. And that's why at ExitEngine, you know, our advisory partners are there and are put in front of people based on and allowed to resonate with those people in the whole thing, right? Because not everybody resonates, right? Not everybody's gonna pick up what Svenja's putting down, right? And that's okay. Eventually, there might be somebody else down the line because they've heard Svenja talk that maybe they feel more in line with, that has a similar or different approach to the same thing. And so it's a growth thing. It's steps, you know, along the way. It's, oh, I never thought about this before one day, and then 3 months later, there's another piece that pops up in my head. And now, and this is how I'm kind of formulating and starting to change. And, you know, over time, right? It's not, it's not, it's not an overnight thing. And this is what we've been trying to say to everybody, John, right? Which is that— Exit planning, like all this stuff, okay, is not about an overnight situation. It's not something that you decide one day and the next day you execute it. It can't happen that way. If it is happening that way, you either got really lucky or you're getting really shafted and you don't know it.

Yeah.

So let's— the lesson here is, again, is that you— we, we need to understand ourselves more than ever. And we are constantly bombarded right now on social media and with the sociopolitical climate and everything else in the world and everything else that's going on, war and famine and people hurting each other and all this stuff, right? There's yet, yet there has never been, I've seen, never been a bigger movement right now than right now, perhaps, in terms of the movement towards understanding ourselves more, looking inside about what are the things that get us going and trying to align ourselves. And guess what we'll learn? What we'll learn when we all do this is that everybody actually wants and wants to feel the same things because they are human things to feel. There are only 17 ways to feel about anything. That's it. I'm using 17. I don't know if there's 15, whatever. But those are their emotions and their sub-emotions and those kinds of things. Right. But that's it. What do we all want to feel? We all want to feel like we're meaningful. We all want to feel like we've got Something that we're offering somebody else that's helping people somewhere, right? That, that is probably the reason we exist. Now, not going to get all hoopy and God in it, whatever. All we're saying is though, isn't it interesting how when I align myself with those things that I feel better? When I am actively serving people, when we are doing this podcast and giving away what we do for free, It's because we believe very strongly in what we're doing here and that, and that more people, we can help a lot of people if they would allow us to help them. And that's, that's what we're trying to do, right?

And I'm just going to quote, you know, we talked about the hierarchy of needs and everyone, probably everyone's heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but it's, it's not, it's not simple, but it's, you know, when someone puts it down on paper, it's physiological needs, safety needs, love and belonging, esteem, and self-actualization. Shout out Maslow. But, but check that out if you, you know, if you want to see. And there's good— there's a couple good charts out there. But yeah, all— everyone needs the same things in order to be happy. And, and, and to your point, Jo, sometimes forget the noise, you know, follow social media, but realize that they're, they're probably trying to sell you something. Whereas if you get more in touch with what you really want internally and what you, you want from an individual standpoint, um, and what will make you happy, all the rest of the things will take care of itself. But you got to get that set first.

Yeah, yeah. It's— in the end, we all have these 3 questions to our outer world: am I seen? Am I worthy? Do I matter? That's what you said, Joe. So, and, um, this moment of dark night of the soul, what we talked about is exactly To find answers to these 3 questions.

And it's popping up. It's popping up. If you are going through this, okay, and understand that, again, there's lots of things that go into it. People are going to look, you know, for therapy. They're going to look to the psych— you know, to the psychology world for help and things like that. That's fine. Some people, you know, meditation's my thing. You know, I found that incredibly helpful. There's somatic thing. We're gonna have somebody on in the next couple of weeks, John, actually, who does like some like breathwork.

Yeah.

Which is always a good way to do stuff like that too, and learn how to do that. We have no idea. You have no idea how much people do not know how to breathe. It's insane.

It's breathwork. It's one of the, probably one of the tools that helped me also the most in the last years. Yeah. And my clients too.

So yep, absolutely. These are the things that go on. So there's so much more to get into on this. Topic. You know, we have like an hour has gone by so fast today. So yeah, this is so cool. I mean, yeah, I wish, I wish if I had one wish, okay, I, I would spend it this way. I would wish that everyone knew what you and I and John and now the listeners of this podcast now know about how it, how we can be fulfilled and what this warning alarm bell is that we call the dark night of the soul, or we call it midlife crisis or whatever, and what it really is and how to deal with it. And the fact is that Savenia's got, you know, 3 steps, man, okay, to be able to do this, right? It is understand who you are first, right? Figure out how it is that you want to feel. And now you can go and start to communicate that out into the world, right? And to be able to set yourself up for This isn't about, you know, cutting people out of your life, right? We're not talking about that. We're not making recommendations of that. Please don't send us letters about how your husband left you. That's not what we're talking about here. What we are talking about here, however, is you're— as a man in particular, it's going to take a little bit more, okay, than what you are comfortable with. And what I mean is, you're going to have to be willing to You need to get out of your own way.

All right?

You need to sit with yourself. You need to feel the things you didn't want to feel since you were a kid. Right? You need to process the trauma, and you need to basically allow yourself to align yourself with who you really are and where and what it is that you do well. Right? And maybe growing a business is what you do well. Maybe despite whatever business it is, there are people out there, John. We know them. I mean, you know that that are. All they're good at is getting this business to succeed. Right? And that's fine. Maybe that's what your purpose is. But I think that the big takeaway here is there's an alarm bell that's going off. It's meant to be listened to. It's an emergency, but it is not a do or die. It is about taking the time To listen to yourself. Listen to yourself for once.

Yeah, I really enjoyed our conversation, Svenja. Where can— if someone wants to get in touch with you, where's the best place for, for people to find out more about you, your consulting practice, either website, LinkedIn, whatever it happens to be? What's the best place?

At the moment, the best place is LinkedIn because we're currently moving the web page and it takes a little bit longer than expected. So the best place is LinkedIn. Yeah.

Excellent. So Svenja Floberg Thiel, you'll find her on LinkedIn. If you will have all this, all this obviously will be in the show notes and all that stuff, as it always is. You'll have a direct link to her LinkedIn account. You can get in touch with her as well. Svenja, thank you so much for being on the show today. We're going to do this again because there's so much more. Yeah, we've just talked about one kind of topic in here. this dark night of the soul. But the reality is there's so much more to aligning yourself, um, with, you know, kind of with your purpose and being able to figure out what that is, no matter what stage of business you're in. We're talking about exits, you know, that's what we talk about. But the reality is, is that you, you can and should be, you know, this should be something that you've got to, you know, that you're thinking about, you know, no matter where you are, you know, in life. Because this is the kind of thing that the earlier that you can get this done, The more successful you're going to be, frankly, in all walks of life, which I think is really important. Svenja, thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you so much.

Jon, we've got some cool stuff happening at ExitEngine that we're going to start talking about. And one of the things that we want people to do is to be able to get on our waitlist because there's some cool stuff happening and we want to put that out to people and we want to be able to start emailing them and be able to talk to them about what's coming up.

Yeah.

And so, if you go right now to myexitengine.com, you're going to see basically nothing much more than an email form right there. Give us your email address. Promise that we won't do anything untoward with it. All we want to be able to do is communicate with you about what's happening in September. Okay? And there will be more. We will talk more specifically about what this exactly is happening. But right now, Please go to myexitengine.com, put your email address in there, and let us start sending you some information about what's upcoming, because I think it's going to be something that's going to hopefully change what we're doing here for the better. We are consultants. That's what we've always been, but we've got a new way of, we think, of being able to put this stuff out into the world, right, Jon? And we want to share it with everybody.

Yeah. And if this is the first episode you've listened to, check out our other episodes. It's podcast.myexitengine.com. And you can see other people that we're interviewing very similar to what Svenja is— not, I shouldn't say similar to what Svenja is saying because she's got a unique voice in our archive of people, but they're business-related podcasts, they're personal-related podcasts. And what we try to do with all of our events and all of our podcasts is, you know, take a smidgen of what we think is interesting and what is relevant to business owners. and expose them to it for an hour, right? The last hour that we've had with Svenja is so interesting and sort of a different take on a lot of what we, you know, it's not the go, go, go revenue, profit, EBITDA, margin expansion.

Correct.

That can all come, but again, it gets back to you got to know yourself and you got to know your individual, what your wants and what your needs are and not just what your wants are. So it just, you know, there's other people in our archive that sort of have a discrete topic. So check those out when you get a chance. Again, podcast.myexitengine.com, and let us know what you think.

Absolutely. Again, you can find us if you have a question. If you have any time, at any time, you can email us directly. It's Joe, jo@myexitengine.com, or you can email John, johnjohn@myexitengine.com, anytime. Find us on YouTube, on LinkedIn, You will find us on this podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, wherever you get podcasts, whatever. Please share it, like it, subscribe wherever you can. Share it with a person that you, a business owner that you love. Thank you so much, Svenja. Thank you one more time for being here today. Thank you so much. We will see you again for sure. And John, as always, buddy, have an awesome day and thank you so much for being my partner.

Thank you for today and for being my partner as well.

Got it. All right, guys, have a great one. We will talk to you very soon. Thank you so much.