Servant Leadership - Joe Kim - Episode 06

Hello and welcome to Leaders of Tomorrow. I'm your host, Lee Matera. We created Leaders of Tomorrow to share a little bit of the magic that happens at Camp Rising Sun. Exceptional teenagers are nominated to attend our program on a full scholarship when they are teenagers, and we stay involved in their lives forever. Today I am speaking with Joe Kim, founder of Office Hours, a startup which In our conversation, Joe describes how experiences at Camp Rising Sun have contributed to his success in his career, especially when it comes to feedback, reflection, and communicating across differences. Hi, Joe. Thanks for joining us today. I was wondering if we could just start off by telling us about your work. I know you're busy launching a new company which connects people with information in a way that I find absolutely fascinating. And quite frankly reminds me a lot of Camp Rising Sun.

Sure, absolutely. This is great and I'm excited to be a part of it. My company. So I started Office Hours Technologies, which is a software company based in San Francisco. I started it last year with my co-founders. On a basic level, we help people around the world earn income by sharing their knowledge. You can think of this a bit like if LinkedIn and Airbnb had a baby. But for example, if you— if there's someone in the audience today hoping to start an international nonprofit or, you know, think through how to adapt a camp program digitally during a pandemic, they might go on to office hours and book your time.

Hmm.

And so what we would do is basically facilitate that knowledge-sharing event. You can think of it as like a virtual office hours. You would host your office hours, and this would give that knowledge seeker the opportunity to really ask specific questions about your unique experiences. And you'd be able to talk through, you know, truly from your perspective what you've experienced, and there's value to that as well. You know, the concept here being unlocking this otherwise underutilized asset, which is in this case the collective wisdom of society. And so that's the basic gist of what we're building today.

Yeah, and something that really resonated with me when I was learning about this company you're launching, it brings me back to the Camp Rising Sun program model and specifically the concept of instruction time that we have where our community comes together and offers whatever skills and knowledge and experience they have to others in the form of, you know, let's say a 60 or 90-minute instruction. And the belief in that is a break from the traditional educational model where we believe that educators, teachers have knowledge that they bestow on students, young people. And where we break from that is that we believe that everyone who's part of our community has something of value to share with others. And so we, we create this platform during the summer for campers, staff, visitors to give an instruction. that anyone can participate and learn from. So hearing about your company and especially how you just described it really sat with me that it was very much like camp. I wonder, what do you feel influenced you to launch this specific company? Why do you feel like it's of value and why is it important to you as your passion project?

I think that that's right. Office Hours is based on the premise that we are defined by our own unique experiences and those unique individual experiences experiences that only we have and share an overlap in some ways, but are very unique to us in other ways, has value. Truly, it's a bit of a search-match problem, a connectivity problem, and an incentivization problem. And if you think about the amount of knowledge there is in the world, which is the stuff that is accrued over time through experience by human beings, we're really just in the first innings here in being able to unlock that. I'll give the example. So, you know, if you're writing a high school social studies paper, like the one I wrote on Denmark's immigration policy back at the time when I was in school and how that might compare with, let's say, European countries at the time, you know, most commonly we will go online or back then we even went to the library. You know, turns out back in high school, I was able to reach out to Mads and Ivan. Denmark 2006 campers and get their, you know, direct perspective. They were able to offer perspective unique to them, but truly adding value to sort of the insight that I was creating on Denmark's immigration policy. Now it turns out a total coincidence that, that Ivan's father actually was at the time the assistant to the Minister of Immigration and Integration of Denmark. And so that was quite helpful. Amazing. And I'm sure I got an A on that paper. But it's not because it was well-written, I'm sure, but based on the insight that I was able to develop on unique perspectives. And this is sort of like, I think, in some ways, just the beginning. It's almost like a reaction to the democratization of information with the internet and Google. Everyone has all information at their fingertips, right? With a click of a button, with a search, a lot of noise and aspect. And so in this case, I was able to get sort of an edge by getting unique perspectives that are hard to find and truly come and stuck in people's heads. And in this way, we're trying to unlock a bit of that value. And I think there's compelling potential there. Yeah.

And I'm really taken also by the concept of the matching process, matching need to skills. And over the years of knowing you, I've seen you offer help and leveraging your resources to help Camp Rising Sun. It just seems to be second nature to you, like who you are as a person, to see a need, be able to think about it, reflect on it, and then find a way either through yourself or through other resources to have the need met. And how did that trait evolve in you?

I've had a few of my own unique experiences that helped me understand that everyone is different and therefore everyone has unique value. And those values come from those unique experiences. I think part of that was, you know, growing up in New York City. You know, having a bit of a culture shock and going to the high school that I did, Hunter College High School in Manhattan. There I learned, oh, not everyone, you know, lives and operates and speaks like the friends that I have in Queens. And then, you know, the massive culture shock of going to camp and realizing, wait a second, these are all, you know, 15-year-olds like me and we have very different experiences and different perspectives. Further culture shock going to college. And then, you know, I think, you know, that developed further further as I started to work on teams professionally in my career and realizing, you know, especially when managing others, like, people are different, people are unique, people behave in different ways, and all those unique sort of perspectives and behaviors have value as well.

What parts of Camp Rising Sun do you feel impacted the way that you conduct your work?

You know, maybe— is this the most common answer? Servant leadership, I think. Even throughout there, it's just this continuous theme of discovering and rediscovering servant leadership. My company today, we're a small team. It's almost like a pickup basketball game where everyone's feeling each other out. We just started. This is the founding team. We're figuring out who's taking what opportunity, what role, what responsibilities. Truly, I think my role today has been to to just empower those people, find the right people, empower them, help them find their sweet spots, empower them to do their best work, and then get out of the way. And so a lot of my day is focused on how do I make the rest of my team better? And I think what's going around today in this world at this time, it seems like this concept of servant leadership is more crucial than ever. I think truly strong, effective leadership comes from service, which is demonstrated through your trust, And, and dictates your motivations and dictates the types of outcomes that you want to determine. And so, so yeah, I would say, I would say servant leadership for sure.

So why don't we rewind a little bit and move back to this space when you went to Camp Rising Sun. Paint a picture for us. It's 2006 in Queens, New York, and you're accepted to attend Camp Rising Sun. Tell us about 15-year-old Joe and his life, and, you know, why did you apply? What were you hoping to get out of it? You know, what impacted you most? Just tell us about everything.

Where to start there? Okay, so, well, you know, if I'm 15 years old, I'm probably playing a lot of basketball. I'm commuting to, uh, to school every day, uh, very long commute. I think this was definitely like defining of part of who I am today. I took the— I would have to take the Q12 bus to the 7 train to the N train to the 6 train every day to school, which was about an hour and a half commute each way. Many New Yorkers growing up in New York have similar sort of experiences, but I do think that was sort of a defining, at least memory in my life of doing that as well. I mean, in terms of camp, I think I think I applied through a guidance counselor at our school at Hunter, told me about the program and thought I should apply. I did apply. I was excited. I mean, I had definitely never, you know, summer camp for a lot of New Yorkers is sort of a foreign concept. And so it wasn't on the radar necessarily, but when I— Interviewed and heard more about it and then got accepted. I think part of it was I started realizing even then that like new experiences were interesting to me. I think it kept my mind running. I think, you know, grew up with a single mom. And so we definitely like lived a queen's life, but you know, one thing she prioritized was, was travel, international travel. And so I remember, you know, every year, finally, since I was young, we would go somewhere. And so, you know, hearing that all of these different campers from different perspectives are coming to Red Hook, New York, you know, I was excited for sure.

And once you were there, you know, talk to us a little bit about what your adjustment period was, or what are the, what are the types of things that you remember?

I remember it being, you know, even the first week, just so engaging. It felt like walking into sort of a different society, different norms. You're all of a sudden put in positions that you're not used to as a 15-year-old kid. And Being outdoors for a significant amount of time was a newer concept for me as well. I remember that. But, you know, I think it was a very quick transition. And it was, you know, for me, it was thrilling.

And from those experiences, is there one thing, one takeaway, one big aha factor for you in the way that the program was designed or anything specific that you wanted to share?

You know, I would say if I'm looking at sort of how camp impacted me the most as a, you know, as who I am today, tangibly, intangibly, I think it was to me, I think a unique experience for myself as a 15-year-old to have different opportunities for introspection at such a young age. self-introspection. And so, you know, everything from obviously like staying up late in your tent with your tentmates and sharing about the day and what went on in the day and, you know, basically having a debrief. Uh, I was journaling for the first time in my life as a camper. And so really being able to articulate like, what, what did I feel that day? How did I, how did I behave that day? What, what, what are the experiences that I had? What are the emotions I had? That was pretty new to me. And then, you know, obviously I think this comes from the culture of camp where it's even institutionalized. We have, you know, council every week, which for, for the audience is, you know, that weekly, you know, uh, campfire meeting, uh, in the evening, uh, where we reflect on the week, uh, itself and people, you know, speak their mind. Vigils. I mean, that, that was sort of one of these culminating experiences at camp where, you know, at the end of camp you're You're all alone and maintaining a campfire and writing a letter to yourself that's mailed to you on your 21st birthday. I mean, those are the types of experiences you don't learn in middle school. You don't learn in high school. There aren't that many opportunities for that. And so I think that ability, a trained ability and exposure to introspection and thus self-awareness,

I

think it was crucial.

And so once you went home— for the audience, most of the campers attend our program for one summer. And then, you know, we, we stay connected with them through their life course. You were one of the small group of campers who were selected to come back for a second year and to help create, you know, recreate the community for the next group of people by setting the tone and role modeling and being the leaders to teach the culture of the organization to the incoming campers. I'm just curious, you know, What made you want to come back and apply to be one of the second-year campers? And how was that second-year experience different for you from the first year?

Well, for me, these years blend together a little bit. Fair enough. You know, but I had a lot of these experiences in my first year of camp that I'm assuming, even though we are just, you know, it's just a program of 60 campers in Red Hook. I probably had these sort of unique experiences, conversations, activities that splintered off with different types of folks. One, it was incredibly engaging. So, you know, selfishly, I wanted to go back to camp and experience them again. But 2, I think a lot of it was taking sort of the best moments that I had and trying to share that with a new set of campers as well. And so I think like, Specific examples could be, I remember we did sort of all these different mini trips that actually were really helpful for me. We went to like a Baptist church and a synagogue and a mosque, and we did the hiking trip, and I played a bunch of pranks that were like really exciting that I wanted to play again on camp. And I remember like—

That we don't do anymore.

And so I think to, to be able to share that again in a different perspective with more of sort of what to expect. That was probably interesting to me. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, I think it's such a privilege to have gone a second time, and I would have gone again and again if I could, so.

Right. Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm in the unique position where I do get to go to Camp Rising Sun again and again and again. That's right. And for me, the years really blend together. You know, sometimes I lose track of like what Was that one of my campers when I was a counselor? Or, you know,

right, right.

So let's think about the going home process. So after your first year, and then again for you coming back after a second year, many of our campers experience this transition period where they've just had this life-changing experience. They go home, the people around them didn't necessarily change. Like, they're, they're coming back to the world as it was. It sounds like your mom was worldly and, and, you know, valued learning about, you know, other countries and, and other people. But I'm wondering if there was any sort of transition experience for you, or, or what was it like to come home after this incredibly impactful experience?

I imagine I was telling everyone I knew about the experience and how incredible it was and You know, keeping into this. This is when Facebook, I think, actually started to become more of an international and not just for, you know, college students, but that's how we connected after camp with all my fellow campers was on Facebook. And so I think I was on Facebook a lot. I think myself, I mean, when I got back the first time, that's when I ran for student government. You know, before that, that wasn't sort of on my radar in any way, or even to participate too much in high school other than just, you know, attending classes. But that was my first experience in student government. I ran for office and that kicked off sort of, you know, the next 3 years of doing, you know, sort of like service for my school. I ended up being the president of my high school my senior year, and that wouldn't have happened without camp. That proactivity and that sort of initiative and in the sense of building community. I don't know. I mean, maybe, but I think camp definitely accelerated that for sure. So that's like a very tangible difference, I think. It was definitely an inflection point in my life where I became more— by knowing myself more and what I was interested in, how to sort of like interact with peers and build groups and consensus, that definitely set off sort of at least my high school political career.

Yeah,

absolutely. Yeah,

yeah. And then after high school, I know that you, uh, were very fortunate to receive, if I remember, a full scholarship to Dartmouth. Is that right?

Yeah, I mean, it was, uh, it's a— it was definitely a privilege to— I mean, camp was very similar, I think. I think throughout my life it's defined by all sorts of privilege, the ability to experience and grow in a fortunate way through sort of these different, you know, luck-produced opportunities. And I also, you know, the Camp Rising Sun Scholarship, I think, is also something. I think the Camp Rising Sun Scholarship helped me buy all the things I needed to go to school, including like a very expensive laptop and, you know, all of those things that— Mm-hmm. all of my classmates had, so.

Right. Well, that's great. And what was the college experience like for you?

College experience? I mean, I loved my time at Dartmouth. I think in some ways we consider Dartmouth as an extension of, you know, this culture of camp. It's in the middle of the woods. You're in your basically small isolated community, very tight-knit. It was a wonderful experience and also very worldly. This was, again, in other ways, it was also another culture shock. I think coming from New York City to then Dartmouth, your peers are all of a sudden different, all different types of people. But I think in a similar way to camp, Dartmouth is truly like an equalizer. Like everyone's coming from all different perspectives. And once you're there, everyone's a student. There's no city to go back to. There's no, you know, no parents are close to Dartmouth. And so you can't go back home. I had a wonderful experience.

And then, you know, in your time away from camp as an adult, what has sustained your interest? I know that you've volunteered in a variety of different ways, but why do you keep coming back? Why do you still stay connected with Camp Rising Sun as a, you know, successful independent adult?

Well, I had this great conversation with my team, my company, in an offsite just last month. And we were in deep discussion of this concept of working towards service and impact for today versus service and impact for tomorrow. Particularly in Silicon Valley, there is, I would say, a significant attitude followed by many people here of working hard today, to build for value tomorrow in the future. I think that's incredibly important, and it's important that we have forward-thinking people and necessary to drive progress in our society, but there is of equal importance to, and sometimes overlooked, this focus on impact now, creating value for people today. And it's sometimes, I feel like, missed. And so my partner, Zoe, is a good example. She's a a resident physician at UCSF and my mom, you know, being the teacher and public school principal, like every day they're doing work for their patients and students. And it's— but sometimes there's this discussion around scalability of impact. It's like a utilitarian view of how many, how many people can I touch later on if I build something huge and work really hard to get there? Tying this back to camp, I see camp as truly doing both.

Mm-hmm.

I think it's creating Immense value today, right? Like, I— the value is immeasurable for myself as a 15-year-old, 16-year-old. If I remember, it's full, you know, fully funded, bringing young individuals together in a diverse environment. I mean, that's really— there's soccer and talent shows and chess, but there's also true, like, human growing and building exercises that are happening in real time that impact those people that summer.

Immediately. Right.

But there is also an incredible investment in tomorrow. Like, it's a development in characteristics and traits of, of these young individuals that ideally are empowered and inspired to move the needle for society in the future. There's scale to that as well too. And I think like, it's hard to get both. It's hard to invest in both, but it's— I think Camp is one of those special places where it's absolutely being done in real time. And so I think, I think that there's an extended sort of like value proposition for Camp Rising Sun that I think is unique to, you know, that, that's sort of like a compelling draw that I have to go back to Camp, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. I love that perspective. I'm not sure that I've ever thought about it in that way, and I really appreciate it.

Yeah, sure.

You know, and something that, that comes to mind when I talk about Camp Rising Sun to non-alumni, you know, to the, to the rest of the world, often people make an assumption that our goal is to produce teachers or produce social workers or, you know, people who are directly involved in service, you know, where their careers are directly involved with service. But I try and help them to understand that it's actually— we, we want our alumni to be in every walk of life, in every industry, because we believe that servant leadership is needed everywhere. And so I love that, you know, I feel like talking with you today about your work in the tech industry, we absolutely want someone like you who's an empathic, good communicator who can help bring out the best of people. in the tech field and be an excellent role model about, you know, helping people to be introspective and reflective on their work and who they are, how they work as a team. And on every level, no matter what your career is, you know, we believe that the values that we help teach at Camp Rising Sun will make an impact, and those impacts will ripple into all spheres of life and every industry, every, you know, every part of the world. So As we're wrapping up, Joe, what advice might you give your 15-year-old self?

Hmm, what advice would I give that I would be willing to receive as a 15-year-old? Let's see, this is very personal. It's not a— I don't know if I would give this advice to other 15-year-olds, but for myself, I think I think it's just continually reminding yourself, myself, of your privilege, of all the opportunities that exist, that have existed just by the nature of your situation. I think it's a grounding effect where we can get lost in transition across all the types of things that we're doing and life moving. But I think understanding that privilege and internalizing that— Yeah. And recognizing that that's the case, I think, is truly helpful and part of those things that give you perspective in terms of appreciation and also respect for others. I think it's important to recognize, and it's important to recognize at an early age for myself, and I think hopefully can direct me with the right sort of motivations and attitudes and understanding with all sorts of people.

And just how can our listeners learn more about how to be an expert or a client on Office Hours, your company?

Ah, well, they can visit the website at www.officehours.com. The concept being, you know, you can sign up and create your own Office Hours profile, choose a charity of your choice, and start hosting Office Hours. I think part of our job and commitment is to help you connect to the right people and share your knowledge and help you share that. Thanks for asking. I think officehours.com is probably the best way to find out for now.

That's awesome. Well, have a great day and thank you for your time.

Thank you.

I believe there is no better way of finding hope and feeling good than to help someone out. Think about those in your circles who you can offer a professional boost to the way that several people along the way assisted Joe. Thank you for joining us today, and you can find all the links and show notes for today's episode at www.lajf.org/podcast. Remember to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform to hear more inspiring stories of leadership, connection, and hope.

This has been a production of Twin Flames Studios.