Aaron Fletcher — How To Build And Grow A Thriving Membership

Hustle and Flowchart.

What is up, everybody? Matt Wolfe here with the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. I'm here with my business partner, Joe Fear. And today we're bringing back a second time guest. Today we've got Aaron Fletcher on the show. And Aaron's first episode with us all about how to pretty much automate everything in your life, has been our single most popular episode of the podcast to date. And since he's been the most popular episode, you know, you guys have voted, basically. You've basically told us this is the guy we want to hear more from. So we're bringing him back again for a second episode. Now, I need to warn you about this episode. This one's going to be a little bit more on the silly, fun side because we went to lunch and we had a few beers before we record this podcast, and then we're actually drinking a few beers while recording this podcast. Kind of the first time we've ever done a podcast like that where we were, you know, we had a little buzz going and we drank some beers while we were doing the podcast. Haven't done that before. So this one's going to be a little interesting. We do get a little silly and goofy at times, but it's fun and there's a lot of great, valuable takeaways. Aaron has just a killer, killer membership site that he's putting in, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of new members every single month. So we wanted to take this opportunity to pick his brain on exactly how he's building, how he's loading up his membership, how he's retaining members, pretty much everything around how he has such a successful membership site. And, you know, he gives us some of his Facebook ad strategies, some of his retention strategies, some of the, you know, the angles that he takes on promoting his membership site. It's a very, very wide ranging, very sort of buzzed, had a few beers in us conversation. So it should be fun, it should be entertaining, but it also should be super educational because once you get a couple beers and Aaron, he's gonna be open to telling you about anything in his business. And this was, this one was perfect. So Enjoy. Here's episode 45, how to Build and grow a thriving online membership with Aaron Fletcher. All right, so we're here with Aaron Fletcher, our first ever repeating second time guest.

Technically, it's a trifecta.

Yeah, yeah. Technically it's the third time we've had them.

Tri Fletcher.

I like that. Good branding.

This is actually the first time we've done a Podcast with beers.

Well, that's on video.

At least. Anybody else knows about local swamis.

Cheers, man.

Cheers.

Here's to all the dead markers.

Yes, dead markers.

Can I pour some out? I don't think in the middle of Aaron's office.

Gary Halbert.

So, yeah, we're hanging out in Encinitas, California.

Lunch at. We had a paleo vegan lunch.

Oh, yes, Buffalo, if you want to call that.

With my French fries and my cheeseburger.

And we did two CrossFit classes back to back just to prep for the podcast.

Cross fat. Yes. And we'll do CrossFit later.

Joe Williams.

I'll probably die.

I'm gonna go home and probably have another beer later while Joe's at CrossFit.

Oh, man.

I'll send him a text.

How you feeling, bro?

So what are we doing here?

This is why I want to have a Joe Rogan style podcast where we just talk about whatever pops up, but our listeners wouldn't probably listen.

I like Joe Rogan. It's good.

Rogaine. Yeah, no Rogaine. Speaking of that, did you see the.

Back of your head?

Oh, no.

You're looking all right. All right, cool.

You're fine.

I just wanted to check.

This camera. Really add 30 pounds.

Yeah, no, you're just pushing it out.

We got to figure out how much of this we're actually going to edit out later and how much of this.

You love this, right?

This is live without a net. I mean, the amount of value we've provided in the first five minutes is worth. Is worth the price of admission alone.

Well, this might go on our customer, like, flash drive so they can see us.

That is totally around. I'll edit this. I offer to edit this. We won't even have a Tiga.

We won't even pass this one through.

Tiga. No.

All right. Sorry. T Gu.

He's our podcast editor. Yeah.

So what we want to talk about today was actually membership sites, because you have probably one of the most successful membership sites that we are aware of with the Fletcher Method.

Yep. And you're aware of like three.

Well, we've got the EGP letter. The Fletcher Method.

I think it's about it. Right.

Maybe there are other membership sites.

I think there's a couple membership sites out there. Yeah. And I have. I think Netflix. Mine's like the second best.

Okay, so Netflix and then you.

Yeah, Netflix would be first, and then comes a fun Fletcher Method.

What about Hulu? Hulu's like.

No, no, no, no. That's all Cosby Reruns and that's kind of creepy.

No one likes them these days.

Just take the pill.

Oh, man.

So what the hell is the Fletcher Method?

So the Fletcher Method is a method of acting like you have your own method for doing something.

Well played, sir.

No, it's basically we have a membership where we just help people that are trying to launch online business get from 0 to 10k with an automated marketing system. So it's folks that are typically entrepreneurs, coaches, consultants, software companies, and they just haven't been able to piece it all together. So you guys remember. It's hard to remember when you guys started out because you guys have been doing this for 10 years now.

Right? Right.

When you start out, you're. I mean, when I started out, I was like, I bought this course, went to this seminar, I went to the product that and the launch this and, and bought all these courses for two grand. But I couldn't piece it together into a strategy. So I just said, what if I put into a A to B strategy where people can get their customer and their message and their offer and their funnel and their traffic all in one place. Little did I know it would take a lot longer to get it right. And it was about three years of struggling with it, but lately it's been working out really well.

Nice. So with the, with the Fletcher Method, how are you putting new members on? Because when it comes to membership programs where it's like a monthly or an annual fee, that's probably the hardest thing in the world to sell.

Yep.

So what is sort of the sort of tactics advice you'd give people on selling a membership?

Yeah, it's a good point. There's three things that I think right now, given that we're drinking beer, I can probably remember, one of them is the first thing is, is to not sell a membership is to sell an outcome. Right. So most membership sites are like a grocery store where you're selling content. And everyone said content was king. I think that's kind of bullshit because there's no shortage of content. Nobody needs content. They're drowning in content. They need context. So most memberships, and I have a lot of friends that have seven and even eight figure memberships that do that well. And I think that's for more advanced people that know what they want, they know how to get there. Like my friend James Schramko said, my membership is like a grocery store. People come in, they know what they want, they can get content about anything they want. How to do memberships, webinars, content marketing. But my Folks are more like, they don't really know what they want. Like, when I go to a grocery store, I buy Twinkies, you know?

Exactly.

It's obvious.

It's just. Yeah, sorry, it's the camera. It's. It's about giving. So what we do, the number one lesson is give people a pathway instead of a product to say, you know, you're coming here to get an outcome. And the fact that we charge for a membership, we don't sell it as a membership. We say it's an alternative to paying a high price up front. Right. So when you, when you finance a car, you think you're buying a car, but you could say no, that's like a membership. It's a recurring payment. So it's, it's about giving people several thousand dollars in courses or products and saying no, you can pay monthly. Right, got it. The second thing is, is don't believe what all the experts tell you because everybody in the marketing space said you can't sell a recurring product up front. People just want to buy one time. And it's just, you can't fake it because if you have the bottom line with memberships, if you have a shitty product, people are going to cancel.

Right?

So what you're doing is, this is the SaaS company, the SaaS model, right? If you have a good product, you want to get as many people as you can to experience the product, right? If you have a shitty product, you want to charge as much as you can with no refund policy, right? I mean, you want to say it's two grand and once you open it, you know, I'm going to go away and you're not going to ever get a refund. So I was just like, I spent two years selling something for $1,000 one time, and I was like. And I barely made a living at it. And I said, what if I just jack it all the way down to like $49 where they can get access, no content, dripping everything. And. And then the hard part was making cold traffic work. So getting the offer right was first, and then the cold traffic was a different animal.

Yeah, so it's kind of the angle of, look, if you're anything like us and other marketers out there, you're probably buying at least one or two new courses every month. So stop doing that and just come to me. I'll just provide all that for you.

Well, and what you're providing are, like, frameworks and these exact blueprints.

You know, that's another thing. How far away Should I hold this?

Yeah, right around here.

Okay.

Or that.

Like this. That's another thing was.

What'S out there is not only noisy, but people don't bundle frameworks with their training or templates or. So what I do is instead of creating a training course, I start with creating like a one page cheat sheet for the whole course. Like, here's a Facebook ads thing. I mean, here's how it's a really dense, like one page framework. Here's how you do a webinar. Here's how you do Facebook ads. Here's how you do lead magnets, whatever. And then it made creating a. Not only for me, it was a huge hack because then I could just create videos for like, let's say you create a framework, like, here's the six steps to a webinar. Then I can say, okay, well, cool, I'll create six videos and every. Every video points back to the framework. But then the customers love it because they're like, yeah, now I can print this thing out and put it in front of me and I have my whole strategy right in front of me. Instead of what you don't retain, you know, what Good is watching 10 videos for 10 hours if you don't actually retain it?

Right, right. And having those printed frameworks, because we've done the same thing, is give them a system, something in one month, you know, at the EGP letter, we'll say, hey, put this on your wall or put it right in front of you on your desk.

The Evergreen. What do you call it? The Evergreen Blueprint.

What do we call it? Well, when we send out our newsletter, we send out a flowchart.

It. The flowchart, but we call it like our marketing stack or something like that.

The Hustle Flowchart of Evergreen.

I think it's profits flowchart.

Yeah. But it shows how everything's connected, the kind of the systems involved and then how you can kind of.

It's a framework, but we call it the flowchart.

It's basically an evergreen digital knowledge craft blueprint.

Sure.

Yes.

Like that.

We'll trademarked.

We'll TM that later.

Yeah. So I mean, so with anybody with a recurring product, I think the big thing is like they're, they're daunted by the how to sell this thing. And you've perfected the cold traffic part of it. And I'm curious to wonder, like, okay, what's your process there? Like, what's your cold traffic source? Kind of, what's your process? How do you actually do this effectively in roi.

That was, that's, that's actually a great question. It took me a long time to do it and it's so simple that a lot of people won't believe how simple it is. So here's the benefit of. Remember I said, create those frameworks in your membership. You're delivering content. Well, wait a minute. I said, since I've created that framework, if I go and put that into cold traffic as a Facebook ad, you know, Google Ad, Facebook ad, Twitter ad, then you're like, okay, well what people want, let's just face it, as human beings, we want quick fixes. We want to download, to have. We want to solve a problem quickly and easily. We don't want, like, no, no one would respond to a Facebook ad that said, here's a five hour training on how to tie your shoes. People want the quick fix. So what I realized is if I take all the frameworks from my membership, so to speak, and I simply put those into Facebook ads. Now I learned this from Digital marketer, right? They had DM labs, a membership, and what they would do is they realized they had different avatars. Certain customers want different solutions, different problems they're trying to solve. So instead of constantly advertising DM labs, they said, well, no, well, since we have a training on YouTube, let's take a YouTube cheat sheet or a blogging cheat sheet. So everything I advertise is around taking the visual aspect of the framework, the cheat sheet, the template, giving them that, and then the offer is the same. So if I advertise, here's a Facebook cheat sheet. Okay, download it. I'm glad you like it, by the way. Get in this webinar. I'm going to show you how we use Facebook ads. Here's a webinar cheat sheet. Download it. By the way, I'm going to show you how we use that. Right. So let me see if this is.

So what you're saying is if somebody was to like just watch for all of your Facebook ads, they could essentially get all of your courses for free.

Yeah.

So take that and go watch the Fletcher Method. No, that's all right. No, but that's actually Matt, if we're talking about like, you know that videos. We've done some Facebook ads now of us scrolling through our PDFs, which are some giveaways. And that's really effective because people just, for some reason, they love this scrolly PDF thing. It's literally just like a screen capture flowing through.

That's a weird thing I do in my ads. Too, like, yeah, the more visual and visceral and attainable and physical, those ads work better.

Right?

All my members, we have, we have almost 3,000 members and they, they always challenge. Well, I'm gonna try this ad instead. I'm gonna try this Facebook ad and I say no, the whole, the whole lean methodology is like, don't think what you're doing is right. Test, test, test. So I'm like, cool, let me know how it works. I've never had someone beat the ads that I recommend. They use pictures of themselves. They use pictures of like you see all these, these ads right now for Facebook agencies and it's like a picture of a horse or a dog. And I'll say, what are you trying to tell us? If you're a Facebook agency and you're using clickbait, getting clicks doesn't mean getting customers. So you're paying actually more for that traffic. You can't celebrate a high click through rate if it's like 12 year old kids that are clicking on a cat that don't have a business. Right? Yeah. So the ad strategy is like take a physical thing that solves one problem that your customers have and then stretch the gap between that and your whole membership or your whole product that you solve. Show them where that lives in your greater kind of solution and then offer them, you know, and instead of selling, join our membership again. Just say instead of paying two grand for this course, you can get all of our courses for 49 bucks. Like just make it, make it a ridiculous offer. Gary Halbert said your offer. Maybe Dan Kennedy said your offers would be so good that somebody in the Midwest, I guess people still live there.

I don't know. What? No, I'm just.

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Did Joe live in Chicago?

I did.

From Cleveland?

Yes. Cleveland.

No problem. No. So, so that somebody in Cleveland would get off the couch, put on their slippers, walk out their front door in the snow to their mailbox to get your product.

That's right.

So, so it should be so irresistible. So I was like, if I took a thousand dollar offer and made it 49 to get people access, then the conversion rate goes up so much, then you have a good problem to solve. Think about it, what problem are you solving then? Keeping customers. How do you keep customers by having a non shitty product? Like nothing's going to make up for a crap product. Right, Right. So this whole opposite of, you know, when I talk about gurus, they said, well, you're a guru too. You sell stuff online. It's like no to Me, what a guru is, is someone who spends 90% of their budget and time promoting shit instead of creating stuff. Tesla doesn't have to worry about their direct response strategy.

Right.

Actually, the cars are all falling apart now.

They are.

They have a great product.

Yeah. So mainly you're working with Facebook ads then, is really where your cold traffic is coming from.

Yeah, we're trying to push out to, you know, places like YouTube, B2B, email, LinkedIn. But the issue there is, especially with Facebook ads, we should probably talk about how to make Facebook ads work.

There you go.

Is Focus 90. This sounds cliche, but Focus 99% energy on the offer and the hook people are trying to tweak. They're like, oh, let me split test, let me get ad expresso and try a video ad versus an image ad versus this versus Frank Kern versus Amy Porterfield.

And they're trying to iterate and split test on a bad offer. So I run one ad and it usually works and it's very seldom that I have to switch it out because I'm thinking about the messaging.

And the offer connecting the audience to something that they really need. And there's a strategy for that. Since we're just drinking beer, I should talk about that.

Let's talk about that.

I was going to ask, how do you know if that's the right offer?

So what I do is I talk about the category versus the currency. And this is really nerdy. And people freak like, what are you talking about? But most people describe their business based on a category of a vertical or business. What do you do? They go, I. I'm a stockbroker, I'm a lawyer, I'm a coach, and nobody gives a about what you do. But the currency is we force all, we force all of our customers before they place an ad, before they create a webinar to get clear on their target market, their message and their offer. The message is, what's the currency? The one currency. So it's like using the ask method, for example, if you ask your clients 10 problems they're having with their online marketing, with their social media, with their podcasts, with their body fat. I mean, not me, but, you know, whatever, whatever category of business you solve, I'm. And I'm helping you in with investments, with your traffic, with your confidence, whatever it is, what. And you go to an audience, say, what's your biggest problem with that? And they give you a list. And then you, then you take that list of problems and you go to your audience say, if I could solve One of these problems in the next 90 days, which would it be? That's your currency. It could be trap. So people use categories like I'm a business consultant or a coach. It's like, no, I'm a currency and my currency is it traffic, is it roi, is it profit? But I pick one. Most of us don't want to leave stuff on the off on a table. So they go, I help you with your, your business growth, your traffic, your leads.

So it's very vague.

What's one, what do you do? Do you help them with their profitability? Do you help them with their scale? Do you help them with their number of new customers per month? So my first kind of message went from I'm an online marketing coach to I help you double your sales in 90 days without tech overwhelm. Right. That was number one. And now I, I can say I can help you launch and scale a six figure business without ever buying another overhyped guru course. Again. Like that's kind of for our course products. Like what am I going to help you do? A specific metric, a specific timeline. That's my currency. Yeah.

So if you have the evergreen profits letter and the Fletcher method, then you don't need anything else?

Yeah, correcto.

Yeah. If we said the Fletcher Green profits leather.

That works.

Well, Brandon, I'm saying like, like it's, it's once one. What we do with our customers, we break everything down into the foundation, the Funnel, the floodgates. Three steps, 90% the foundation. As you guys know. What do all the marketing products sell? The floodgates, the traffic. Yep. Short term tactics, Instagram profit hacks. Everything has to have three worlds. Like online Pinterest Ninja or Super email.

Profits or Evergreen profits Letter.

No, it is a letter.

It is a letter. So that's legit.

Okay, actually you're describing what it is which is real. Most people say like overnight cash social.

You know, my, one of my first products ever launched was called the Autopilot cash formula.

Oh, you are scammer mad.

Of all scammers, dude, it's always three. It's like the product, it started with the product launch formula.

That's right.

And then it's like the social niche control.

Yeah, but if you say like mass spot control, then we got an issue. And there's a ftc.

We.

Besides Joe's already mastered that.

Hey, now please edit that out.

You guys. I don't know why three fellows can't get together.

That's what happens when beer gets cracked. So, all right, so yes, carry On.

So that was just. It is like the message is super clear. But here's what's ninja. I found out and this happened by accident. It didn't have. It wasn't architected. It happened by accident. I just said I struggled so much with advertising, so what am I doing wrong? Why isn't this frickin working? Spend all this money on Facebook ads. And then I kept going back to these foundational things. Do I speak to the right audience with the right message and the right offer? Now here is no shit. The one thing like if this machine breaks, which hopefully it does soon before people start.

We have a couple backups here.

So yeah, is what we call the signature solution that changed everything. And what it is, if you look at the Fletcher method, instead of us describing our membership or our product, it's a one page map. Right. I could show you on our Facebook group, our membership, every one of our customers is required, not, not asked, required to create a map that depicts what they do, the message, the problem they solve. Like literally. You'll see, it's really cool. One gal teaches people how to be professional cheerleaders. Another one is financial advisors. Another one is like mindset or relationship coaching. Another one might be lead generation for chiropractors. They all create a visual one page pathway or map that shows their customers. Here's how we get you from here to here with the currency that matters to you. Leads, profits, confidence, wealth, love, whatever it is in this fixed amount of time. 30 days, 90 days, one year. And what that does is it's I didn't expect this. And I have to say I learned this from experts like Frank Kern with the launching of Neil Strauss. The relationship model. Yeah. Taki Moore was part of his mastermind. He teaches this. He learned it from a guy named Matt Church in Australia who's a ninja at ip Is like turning your thoughts into a visual model. Once I learned that, I said, well, why wait a minute? That is the Facebook ad, that is the membership, that is the webinar. So like all of our customers take what they know, put it into a visual map. And then all of a sudden I'm like, well, wait a minute. You advertise that on Facebook. Well, wait a minute. What's the Facebook headline? How to get here from here to here in this amount of time without that stuff you hate. So how to double your leads without buying paid traffic. How to lose 20 pounds without giving up beer. Here's the. Here's the weight loss roadmap blueprint. So you create the map that's the Facebook ad. And then my first epiphany was like, that's cool. We just figured out how to do paid traffic for any industry. And then the real aha moment when I said came, I said, well, if you're going to do a webinar, guess what? Those are the three sections of your webinar. Yeah.

That's all the teaching. Yeah.

What do you do in your map? You say, I'm going to show you this, how to get from here to here in this time. This is your webinar. Here's the three main struggles people have. You know, this is like Russell's what's it called?

Perfect webinar Webinar.

And then here's the three main steps to get what you want, how to do or what to do. That's your map. So you show them the map and guess what? Then at the end of the webinar you say I showed you what to do. If you want to know how, buy my stuff.

Yeah.

And then it got deeper. This is like the fucking matrix. And then I became, well, how do I go from one on one coaching or consulting or agency to delivering a leverage program? I said, it's the map. You take the map and create training products and frameworks. Now your customers can go through training and then you can come and show up and tweak that. You know, so what do one on coaches or consultants do? They ask her that. They answer the same damn question for the hundred people. Why can't you answer a hundred questions for 100 people? And everyone gets benefits. So it's like let your, you take that map. It's use it to get customers. You get it. Use it to qualify customers. Because if you're going to interview a prospect, you're going to ask them how you do in all these areas. And then when you serve customers, you can give them frameworks and training to do all the heavy lifting and then show up as a coach once a month or twice a month and just tweak it. Like if I, if one of my steps is like Facebook ads. If I can give you a Facebook ads framework and show you exactly how to set up your ads, you let your ads run for a week. Oh yeah, I can come in and look at your ads. Oh, the click through rate is too low, the relevancy score is too low, the conversion rate's too low. Fix those come back right. Really long answer. But the big takeaway is creating a map. No matter what industry or whatever product or service you sell, create a visual Model that represents what you do.

Hmm, that's interesting. Yeah. So with that, and you were saying that you sell most of your products with or all the products with webinars.

Right.

So that's like the mechanism that, that you use then after you get that.

Lead, and I think you told us earlier that you use mostly Russell Brunson sort of perfect webinar formula.

Yeah, yeah.

And that, that works out well as.

Far as, like, it works great. Yeah. What I, what we do is we use something for members. So the foundation. Right. Is your, your audience, your message, your offer.

The offer is kind of like a.

Visual map and a price. The funnel is the second step. And what I, I have something called the perfect funnel finder or the five minute Funnel Finder, Tongue twister. And it's webinars for me, but for you it might not be. So we just look at.

Beer.

Take a sip, watch it down.

What is your industry pricing? What's your pricing? Your business model, and quite frankly, what's your experience level? Because for me to tell a beginner in online marketing to go to an evergreen launch, they're not going to get it right. They're not going to hold people's attention through four hours of video. But by the same token, if you're selling a $2,000 coaching program, a video sales letter, it's not going to do it.

No.

They need a webinar that drives people to a sales call. So there's like, and there's these frameworks. As you guys know, in all of online marketing, there's probably, you know, three to five core funnels, like a bsl, a webinar funnel, a coaching agency consulting funnel to drive someone to a call. And then there's other tertiary second like quiz funnels and things that are more advanced.

Funnel, whatever.

But the biggest breakthrough for people is focus on one that's right for your business. You see it all the time. People are like, my product's $12. I'm doing a webinar.

You're like, no, webinar for $12.

Lose money.

Yeah. You're probably not going to make that.

Profitable with advertising unless you have some monster upsell that really converts.

Yeah, $12 now, but for $12,000, we'll also give you a car.

And our expenses on that car are $11,000.

It's all about revenue.

So with, with, with. So we were talking. I don't know if we need to edit this out or if you're okay talking about it, but I think you were telling us earlier that you're putting about 600 people a month on your end, your membership.

By the time they listen this, hopefully It'll be like 612.

I'm looking at. I'm looking at a hundred a day on the board. I'm assuming that's your goal.

Yeah, that's the goal, dude. I think as crazy as it sounds.

That's not crazy.

Is that 3,000amonth? Yes.

Yeah, it would be.

Yeah, that's my crazy goal. My big, hairy goal. Everyone needs a big, hairy, audacious goal. I want you to take your goal and 10 exit and see how you accomplish that.

All right, so our goal. Let's. Let's talk about this, because you can. You can just, like, consult for us for free while we're doing this podcast right now.

We're selfish.

We'll work for beer.

We'll work for beer you bought us, actually. But anyway, that's neither here nor there.

After the $100 bar tab.

Other than the three beers before this.

No.

So our big goal before the end of 2017, which we're recording this right now on November 2nd. Third, sure, whatever. Third. Beginning of November. Our goal was to get to a thousand subscribers by the end of the year.

Yep.

So if you were us and you had a membership site with a print newsletter.

Yeah.

Which you have something similar without the print newsletter, what would you do to get to a thousand subscribers by the end of the year?

Okay. The first thing I would do is reverse engineer that number. Obviously, it's easy to do. So between now and December 31st, there are 60. 74 days. 60 days.

Let's just say 60ish days.

Yeah, let's just take. We take the next week and just think about it. And off. Why not 60 serious days? That's how I like to do it. I like to work in sprints. Yeah. So it's for 60 days. How many customers would you need to acquire? How many members do you have now?

We've got it. We're around 300ish, so we want it. We need about 700.

700 members divided by 60 days is 42. 40.

Oh, man, you can make us do math.

This is your game. I can't use my phone. It's recording a video right now.

So I'll tell you. So let's just. Let's. Let's just do another exercise.

It's actually someone listening to the podcast has already figured it out.

Right.

Shaking their heads at us very aggressively.

Well, they. I know, but those are the people that usually take too long to implement. Right. The perfection.

Let's just say it's roughly 12 members a day.

But Matt's probably right. Divided by 60. Yeah. 11.6.

Okay.

He implements fast.

So here's what I'm. So let's talk about the numbers, the metrics and the tactics. So a couple things I need to know to get 12 members a day. And I'm going to say, well, what's the offer? I'm going to sell, I think I told you earlier off camera and video. So I said, okay, well, to sell in a webinar, it has to make sense metrically. You can't sell on a webinar if your membership is just. Even if you want your first payment, even if you know your average member stays for well over a year. I mean, you have a great stick rate for your letter. You have a cash issue. If you're not externally funded, you can't say, I can pay $10,000 this month to acquire $100,000 worth of customers, but I don't get any cash back for six months.

Right.

You don't have that float because you're internally funded. So you have to break even the first month. So to do that, there's two ways to do that. Increase the incremental customer value by bundling the letter with other added value, like, hey, I'm going to give you these two courses that we've sold for two years for a thousand bucks. And on the webinar, you create a visual map about how to get results in something like content marketing. So you don't make it about your letter. You say, this is the 90 day, the way to generate 2 to 10 times more leads without paid advertising. This is a content marketing roadmap. You educate them on that map you created and you say, I showed you what to do if you want to know how to do it. We have this course and this letter. We're going to send you the best content and affiliate online marketing strategies. Instead of charging you to 2 grand, you can get now for $100. So you increased instead of $100, you make that like $300. The second is to sell frequency up front and reward people to increase the lifetime value or at least the cash, the upfront cash flow, by saying, you know, you can get it for $99 a month or you can get it for $500 a year. So it's about half off. So now I can sell that on a webinar, but instead of trying to sell a letter, I'm selling the result a letter from provides, which is how to create a thriving online business and get, you know, look over the shoulder of two successful entrepreneurs and their experiments and guest writers and basically you're taking, you're curating the absolute best strategies on the web into the most condensed, power packed piece of content, delivering it to your doorstep every month. And so that's how you can use cold traffic, is getting it away from the newsletter, making sure the offer is, is a lot. And guess what? You're gonna advertise on Facebook. Not the newsletter, that content marketing cheat sheet, roadmap, blueprint. And then you just tie it into. So you bundle, if you have software, you bundle with education, if you have education it, you bundle it with products or software. It's like how do you solve more of the customer's problems by increasing the incremental order value with stuff that you already have available. Got it, got it.

And that's similar to what we're kind of starting to do, I guess, you know, with our, you know, we're playing with the, the annual offer. We're also bundling it with some thousand dollar products that we have. So yeah, I guess it's stick on the same path, you know, keep going.

Down the same path. We're not actually pitching cold traffic into webinars that pitch a specific outcome. Right where we have, right now, we've got a webinar that pitches our content marketing course.

Yeah.

If you don't buy the content marketing course, then the next selling point is the letter. But I think some of the advice you were giving us earlier when we're sitting, when we may or may not have been sitting at a bar was.

The bar method. Fitness gym Bar method.

Yeah, we're. When we were at the, you know, bench pressing and stuff, we were.

Technical term.

Yeah, yeah, bench pressing. We were over. We were all working out together.

Sounds like us.

We were talking about how we had a webinar that pitched our thousand dollar course. If you didn't buy the thousand dollar course, then we pitched the newsletter and you were saying, you know what, just go straight for the outcome that you want.

You don't want to say like if you don't want to buy a Tesla, here's a keychain. You want to say like, you know, you want to take him kind of up that ladder in my mind, because if you have really good stuff like you do, I mean think about it. People love your letter. Right? So there's. The goal is to get as many eyeballs as you can. The letter. Well, the problem is when you do free trials to do that is, you get the wrong customer who's only there to get a free letter.

Totally.

But if you go from a webinar and you offer, like, let's just say your evergreen profits book, the minimum barrier to create a customer is like a $5 book. When you said, well, when you upsell people to a trial of the letter, they cancel. Then don't. Then upsell them to the normal $99 subscription.

Yeah.

From the book.

So we'll probably have a lower conversion rate, but a lot higher retention rate.

As long as there's an ROI you can scale. I'm looking for that first month for you to break even at worst. And, like, you know what Alex Becker does, The way his formula is very simple. He just has his advertising metrics down where he can wait three months on the cash. He has enough cash. So basically what he would do, what Becker would do, is just say, hey, I know my numbers. I know the average. It's about knowing your numbers. I know the lifetime value of a customer is X. I know the monthly recurring revenue is Y. Know the acquisition cost is Z. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to pay three months up front and lose money. And then the third month, I start making money. Well, that's hard to do if you don't know your numbers or if you don't have a lot of cash. So breaking even is not a bad thing. So if your average cart value, I mean, that's what. That's. What I did with this offer was I realized that if 40% of people pay up front, you know, 297, the rest pay $49, and they stick around for five, six, seven months, and there may be one upsell. So the average card value is like 200 plus. Like, wait a minute. If even if I spent $200 to acquire a customer, I'd still make money on the back end, and that allows me to have control and actually spend. I think I spent $2000, $3000 a day for September, $2000 a day for October. So I've got a better formula down. You know, when I first started Facebook ads, $100 a day freaked me out.

Oh, yeah.

Scared the hell out of. Oh, yeah. You know, and I was doing all this day trading stuff and turning stuff on and off, and I realized, like, I have assets for 500 to $2,000 a day, and I don't look at them for a week because Facebook is optimizing to get me customers and people into my shopping cart. And they, despite I just saw a post today from little dude that was like, you know, don't trust Facebook. They want to take your money. They don't. Yeah, they need that to work. They need to have the best user experience, which is why they look at relevancy score. You have a low relevance score, then you have a bad ad and a bad user experience and they tax you or stop your ads.

Right.

But if you provide a high relevance, meaning people like your stuff, they want you to spend more money. They want, you know, they have the world's most sophisticated algorithm and machine learning.

System to get you results.

Yeah, no, I believe that too because we were running some ads, we're pumping a hundred dollars a day through, you know, one specific ad. And I actually turned that ad down to where we're running like $6 a day and it actually started converting better.

Yeah.

Because we were actually putting less money. And what was happening was Facebook was they try to optimize for the budget you give them.

They do.

So if you try to give them a small like six, seven dollar budget a day, they're going to try to figure out how to get you as much customers as possible from that six or seven dollars if you're going.

They, they are. And that. But the same token, people think if you increase your budget, they're going to make you spend that budget. That's true in the short term until they calibrate. So the way Facebook's algorithm works, there's a learning phase and an optimization phase, which means this is, a lot of people don't know this. This is actually. Let me give you a huge takeaway for Facebook ads for everybody. You need your daily budget to get at least 7 to 10 of your desired events conversions. So what does that mean? If you pay $5 for a lead, if you can't go and spend $50 a day, then you need to bid on clicks because they have a new setting where you can tell Facebook bid on clicks until you get enough learning.

Yes. I've actually. Did you see the Digital Marketer article where they tested that?

Yeah, it works.

Well, they, they actually tested it and said that they actually got a better ROI when they didn't turn that setting on.

But they probably had enough budget where they see. They didn't. They, they had the setting. They just tested the setting for the same budget. They already had enough budget to get enough leads per day.

Yeah.

Talking about a beginner.

Yeah. No, so I, I agree when what we've always done and you know, I think this is the same along the Same lines of what you're talking about. What we've always done is we've run an ad and we'll start. If it's a brand new ad we're just turning on, we'll start it by a post. Engagement. We just want to get engagement on that.

It's called priming the pump. But yeah, so you try to get.

Engagement on that ad for the first like, week or so and then once you're getting some likes and shares, you're going to have some clicks on it. Inevitably you're going to have some clicks on it. So once you have a handful of clicks, you change it to, now I'm going for clicks. Right. Once you've had.

Then you go for.

Once you've had a bunch of clicks and it's working, then you go to optimize for conversions, you have to do.

It within that same ad set.

Right.

So 90% of the learning is within a given ad set. So what I learned is like, bid on whatever you can afford to get 10 a day of, whether it's likes and shares, clicks, conversions. But the biggest takeaway is keep one ad set running, don't specify placements. The gurus tell you to do newsfeed or mobile open it up. Every. Every condition you put as a constraint for the algorithm. If you say, only run my ads on Mondays to people that are this gender, this age. I mean, obviously if you're selling like, you know, penis lotion, it has to be for guys. Right.

But depends on what the penis lotion's end result is for.

Say the times are changing.

I mean, if it's penis lotion, because you're real dried up down there, probably just aim it towards men. Penis lotion because it's more pleasurable. You probably want to advertise to both.

Absolutely. Let's just call it.

Matt's an expert.

Let's just call it mutual enjoyment Shaft cream. So if you're advertising, you might have a demographic like men's running shoes and again, Bruce Jenner combined.

Sure.

I'm saying for anybody. So you might have a product that's clearly like, don't. It's not. Don't be stupid about it. Like, if you only sell a men's product, then filter it out. But in general, the rule of constraints is like, when you. If you don't, if you open it all up and you tell Facebook, here's a lookalike audience of 10 million people or 2 million people that are like my best customers, that's all you need to do. And if you have a good funnel and a good offer. You open up. You don't specify where the ad runs, how long the ad runs for the placements. And I found that over time. Here's the big rub. People don't let their ads run. This takes seven to 10 days. Most people turn off their ads before they see the results.

Got to be patient. Yeah.

And you have to have the budget and be real with yourself. Like, you can't test an audience of. You can't run five different ad campaigns. If your audience. If you have like $20 a day.

Yeah.

You have to like, okay, do something for a week and then do something else for a week to try to beat the performance. You can't split test 10 different variables at once. That takes a huge budget. And most people don't understand statistical relevance. That's big rule number two. They don't understand that you would need 10,000 of something to. To establish relevance. A Thousand is, is 90% accurate. 100 is what we do as ghetto advertisers. Like, got a hundred leads. Here's my conversion rate.

Got lucky.

We don't have big numbers, but Most people get 10 leads and they go, I'm paying too much per lead. Or I didn't get any appointments, or I didn't get any conversions on my webinar. And they stop everything when they have to understand statistical relevance. Like, it takes a long time for the stuff to settle in and work.

Yeah. No, And I agree with you. I think. I think Facebook actually does a really, really good job of optimizing for you over time. But most people just don't give it enough time to let Facebook close.

And then the last. I think the last key takeaway from the last six months for me, which has been bidding down the funnel.

What does that explain that real quick.

Bidding down the funnel is huge. I'm going to tell you how to bid up the funnel, too. What you just said. Likes and shares. Actually, let's have a set.

Yeah.

There you go.

Corey Rudolph.

First info guy that Frank bought us.

That's right.

He died in a car crash driving his Porsche into a telephone pole or something.

Was that the guy from Fast and Furious?

Very similar story.

Or the guy from Jackass?

Did Corey real.

That was a Ferrari, though.

That was Ferrari.

Sorry.

That was the tree.

Here's a key indicator. Did Corey's product have three names?

I could probably look it up.

Super info profits, something like that.

He was OG Though, so yeah, he probably just had one name. Yeah, he can get the domain name.

It was just Called, like, rudle. Yeah. So basically, BMS buy my.

It's cool.

I like that BMS method.

Still. Three words.

Bowel movement syndrome. I like it. Buy my.

Carry on.

Curious how much of this is actually going to stay in the podcast.

All of it. Go on.

So bidding down the funnel is this. Remember when I said your budget should be set to the level that you can get 7 to 10 conversions per day and you have to let 50 conversions happen or so? And this is. This is not guru shit. This is. Is what Facebook tells you. There's a Facebook group. I want you to link in the show notes. That's awesome. No one knows about it. There's like 12, 000 members. It's. It's Facebook engineers do live streams and explain the algorithm and how it works and how to build the auction system.

Four videos they have already, and it blew my mind. I watched them twice.

Nice.

And now I noticed, like, I looked at all the Facebook gurus. None of them are in the group. It's from Facebook.

Interesting.

So now some of them are. Don't be.

But here's bidding down the funnel. Hey, Jenny derose, if you're listening, go join that group.

Yeah.

Yep.

We'll tell you about it.

She already probably is. She's a ninja. So bidding down the funnel is this. Let's say I can afford to get 10 leads a day, so I can spend $50. I do that for a week. I start to get 45, 50 leads. I'm like, cool. I start to increase my budget and it's working well. Now I think about, well, Facebook.

It doesn't mean they're working against you. It's a super emotionally agnostic robot. They don't care about you, but they don't care against you. That's the thing. It's just a machine learning algorithm. So they're going to give you the people that are most likely to become leads, which means people are likely to opt in. Doesn't mean those are likely to be your clients. So bidding down the funnel is saying once I get my budget up to where I get five leads a day, then I'm going to bid on webinar registrations. Once I get five of those a day, because my budget is. Let's say it cost me $10 for some of the rest of a webinar, $5 a lead. And let's say it cost me $20 for someone to show up on a webinar, attend a webinar. Well, I'm going to start bidding on people to attend the Webinar because my budget's big enough where I'm targeting a different layer down the funnel. Bidding down the funnel. What I bid most my my ad sets now is for add to cart. Meaning. Meaning I tell the ad set to optimize for cart views, which means they've signed up for something, they've registered for webinar. They showed up on webinar, they stayed to the end, they saw an offer, they went to the shopping cart. Doesn't mean they're my best customers, but they're the damn closest thing because I don't have yet $8,000 a day or whatever, which I'm trying to figure out how to get to the next 90 days. That's my goal is to bid for purchases when you can reach the holy grail by slowly increasing your budget to where you can bid all the way down the funnel. This is why E commerce works on Facebook. It's why Paul was doing 100k plus a month. Because his offer is, here's an ad, here's a sales letter. It's $17.

Yeah.

27. $27. Well at the time of this printing, it could go up to a monthly.

We don't need the name of the product.

So buy it now. Yeah, it's not designer. So not at all.

With two R's and no E at the end.

With no affiliate link in this podcast. Hey, but no but it's just the, the reason why that works is because you get feedback, right? There's no risk. What's the risk of saying I spent $100 today, I made 150. The risk is if you're doing a huge like consulting thing where they have to take. It's about the sales cycle, the duration.

Like they become a lead today and 60 days they become a client. It takes me 60 days to get ROI on my advertising. Which is why you not to be a nerve. You just your attribution window for your ads. So you're measuring your ads based on the sales side that you have. So you tell your ad set to optimize two things. The goal that the conversion event, the pixel event to optimize for leads, conversions, car views, purchases, whatever. Then you tell the timing. So if I'm bidding on leads, I'm gonna say optimize for 1 day clicks. Cause if someone clicks on the ad and they don't register for a webinar or download something, it's unlikely they're gonna click and then like sit there on their computer for a week.

It's a smaller cycle the sales cycle.

Becoming late is like it's second.

Sure.

But for purchases, I might do seven day, because I'm giving faith, because I'm giving Facebook a whole week to measure what happens. And then at that interval, they're going to look back and say, these are the people that over four or five days, six days became customer leads. So that's a big thing. So bidding down the funnel is huge. But if I could tell someone the first thing, like the simplest thing to do right now, Put your whole Facebook budget in one ad set.

Put three or four ads in there.

A scrolling video ad or an image ad in a video ad.

Let Facebook determine which ads gonna work the best. They're better at the Dr. Put your whole budget in one ad set. And Facebook is gonna find, based on that budget over time, wait for 50 conversions before you touch anything. Because that's their learning phase. Let them figure it out.

So sorry if there was a little bit of audio issue there. We just realized it.

But what other selfish stuff could we ask, Aaron?

All right, so I want to know.

For everyone else too.

All right, so we kind of understand your Facebook ad strategy now. You're. You're sort of bidding down the funnel.

You. You.

You're sort of bidding for each metric you want. And then as that metric works, you bid for the next metric you want.

Yep.

All right, so getting somebody into a membership site. How do you actually pitch a membership? Like, how do you pitch somebody on? Because the hardest thing to sell is something that's a recurring price. So how do you actually pitch that recurring price and make it sound like a benefit to them?

Easy. You pitch it as once and charge them twice.

How does that work?

Explain deeper.

You don't tell them it's a membership. You just say it's $10. And then.

And then you bill them without telling them.

Yeah, no, that's. It's all juxtaposition. Right. So here's the thing. I have to say this with a huge.

Caveat, is that I got the best results of my life when I stopped doing. So here's the thing. There's. There's ads running every day on Facebook that assume customers are really stupid. And it took me a while to know that they are. But they assume.

That'S an East Leper.

No, it assumes. It assumes that a lot of them are stupid. And the point is that there. It's. It's like something. We do these marketing things that we don't think about. And I zoomed out, and I was like, what would happen if I never said, buy this by Sunday at midnight if I never had a fake countdown timer, if I never had fake scarcity and urgency. And I just said, here's what I do. And I actually say that. I say, you can buy it now for $49 or you can buy it in a year. Maybe it'll go up a little bit, but probably $49. You know what I mean? And I. And I kind of just looked at, like, right now on Facebook. I look and people I know are like, I've seen an ad from a guy in Australia that says, like, get this plan.

Runs out today. And I said, it runs out today for like, six months. That makes you look like shit, makes you look stupid, and it makes you untrustworthy. Yeah. So to pitch a membership, I just said, here's exactly the way it's like. It's like us versus them. The old way, the new way. I'm like, here's the way the marketing world usually works. I go make a course that solves one little problem that you have and sell it for $2,000. And then I spend all my money and I go make another course that sells a little problem you have and sell for $2,000 or 997 or whatever. By the way, the seven at the end doesn't actually. There's not a real story.

We don't put seven at the end of our products or nines at the end of our products.

Okay. Mine's 997.9.

You like more money than 7.

Ours is 99amonth, so ours is 49. Like, oh, the annual is 297.

It's just like. The real juxtaposition is this. Here's the way the normal space works. The problem I'm trying to solve for you is to actually get results and follow a clear path. So again, I said the membership should be pitched based on a path with an outcome. Not just a general membership, but you're going to learn these skills in this amount of time. And. Or if it's an evergreen, like, newsletter, great. But every month, we're going to give you one specific outcome that you can put in your business right away. Instead of charging you a whole course around that, we're gonna give you these courses and this right now. So instead of charging you 10 grand, we're giving it to you for a small monthly fee. You can quit whenever you want. So I'm taking away the risk. But that whole stacking thing Russell and everyone else does is, like, that works if it's legitimate, right? So I just. I just. I open up my membership and I say, here's the. Here's the content I created, and people want to know why. So instead of charging you $1,000 to learn webinars, $1,000 in Facebook ads, yada, yada, yada, I just put eight grand. But not bullshit guru stuff value, real eight grand. But to charge separately, I'd have to create eight funnels, eight Facebook ad campaigns, eight return policies, eight customer service tickets. Like, all this mess, I'm like, I'm going to put it on here, and you can get it all now. So juxtaposition is what sells the membership. So it's not that people want to buy a membership. They want to be locked in to paying an ongoing fee for something they don't see the value in. That doesn't solve a problem. They don't want another thing on their credit card. But you can think about what the opposite of that is. You're saying, well, if you don't want to pay 49amonth, cool, you can get it all for eight grand, right? So the risk is on you to offer a member. The risk is on you to not charge a grand. But it's worth doing in volume because most people are good people that actually implement that, stick around, that don't try to steal your stuff, and you win with the lowest barrier to entry. So I literally show them, here's everything in the value, and I'm gonna give it to you for 49 bucks today. You can cancel whenever you want.

Right?

So to just a question that it's something that we, you know, everybody with continuity deals with, and we'll wrap up probably pretty close after this, is keeping people. So retaining your customers. Do you have any things that you do to make sure that people stick around for more than a couple months or a month after they see all your content?

This is a huge membership takeaway. There's a couple things you can do. Number one, give people a reward for buying up front because you can do your best work for them. They're committed. If they pay annually. You can do things like not only give a discount, give additional content. Don't drip content. So the number one reason Stu McLaren says this all the time, the number one reason why people churn out memberships is not lack of value, it's overwhelmed. It's counterintuitive. I'm like, I'm gonna give you everything I have. And they're like, you gave me everything. And I get. They feel bad that it's a lot to go through and you're like, this sounds kind of hard. I'm gonna cancel. Right. So I see that. Reward the heck out of it. Secondly, drip it if you. If it. That works better for you. Because sometimes. I talked to a customer today. He tried the all you can eat thing and didn't work as well. It's weird. He tried to offer people weekly coaching to help them and all of his content up front, and he got higher cancellations than when he dripped his content with no coaching. So it's like, it's counterintuitive that sometimes what's better for them is not perceived to be more valuable to them. It sucks because you, you know, it's going to work better.

Yeah. Our instinct is to, like, give over deliverance as possible. Over deliver? Yeah.

The other thing is, is a term like, so the Facebook dude, Dan Henry said that, that when they sign up for a payment plan, they're not signing up for monthly cancel when you want. They're financing a contract. His terms and conditions say you can pay for the whole thing for a thousand bucks or you can go pay $97 a month. This sounds really weird for the online marketing space, but everybody else does it. If they don't pay. He has a contract collections agency. Good for him because they're not signing. They're not paying. They're not signing up to pay for one month. They're signing a contract and financing it, and he's taking all that risk and then they. They take all his content and don't pay anywhere else in the world. You can't like, get your iPhone and go, I paid two months.

Sure, I'm out. I'm out.

Cancel me, please.

That's an extreme measure. And the whole point is, like, you know, what's the phase is like, avoid it in the first place by making it so attractive to buy up front and by dripping content or not giving bonus content or doing stuff like that. And then. And then when you get cancellations, like, okay, well, why are people churning? Do they have a bad user experience? Poll your audience and say, we always say, why are you canceling? And unfortunately, most time it's a false start. You know, if people cancel before going through the content, that's not, to me, a bad customer experience. That's someone who didn't want it in the first place.

They don't priority straight.

Yeah, they were just like, felt at the time. So in a way, higher prices ensure a better match in the first place.

Yeah, well, I mean, we're so used to the concept of the risk Reversal. Right. So we're so used to all the risk. Yeah, we're so used to like, all right, you can get in for 30 days, no questions asked, guarantee, all that kind of stuff. Reverse the risk to get in where that sort of Dan Henry method you were just talking about is like, no, you're paying for a year. And if you don't keep on paying, I'm gonna send a collections agency after you. Like, I don't quite understand how in the sort of environment that we work in, how that even sells. But he, you know, he's a success story.

Yeah. I don't think he says pay your almost in collections. I think he uses collections. Really don't pay. It's different. It's not like a risk reverse. Like if you don't pay him and I know where you live.

But I mean, we're so used to like pitching it as like, all the risk is on us. It's 99 bucks a month. You can cancel any time.

And people take advantage of all that risk and they go, I tried it for a month. So you already have one key to the equation, which is sending a physical thing.

Right.

That's harder to turn. This like, traditionally, people know that's a stickier thing.

Well, it prevents refunds for sure. It doesn't necessarily prevent churn, but it prevents refunds because we, you know, if somebody was to say, hey, I want a refund on this, we'd say, cool, send it back. You know, and nobody ever does. We've never had a refund on it.

Which would be really cheesy for them to do that. But. So let's zoom out and look at one thing I think is the biggest takeaway is lifetime value of a customer. People think I want to have a recurring business. I don't want to sell things up front. But the truth is the fact that it's upfront or recurring doesn't really matter if the lifetime value of a customer is less. In other words, if someone signs up for a product recurring and they stay for three months and your annual people pay for sale six months. Yeah, yeah. Would you turn that up a little bit, bud? Thanks.

He's kidding.

Teenage sounds are great. So that that's a big thing is like, do I care that I have a subscription based business if my customers pay me way less? So one thing you can do is just timing. You can say when you, if you do a webinar and pitch your membership of the product, you can say it's for only 500 bucks. Now you get it for, you know, five hours per year you get all this stuff. Then you can always come back two days later and say, oh, there's also a payment plan. Yeah, you can de. Emphasize the plan.

Yes.

Or does offer so much more value for people that stick that are serious. Right?

Yeah. So it's kind of like, you know, if, if your average customer is paying you 99 bucks a month and your average customer sticks for three months, well, you're going to. Your lifetime value is 300 bucks.

Yeah.

If you sell an annual option for 500 bucks, you're up on majority of your customers.

I had a three month argument with a CFO of a startup I worked at in Silicon Valley. Thanks, Ben. And so I worked.

Microphones cut out a lot of noise. Luckily.

And he was like, I was like, if you charge a two year contract, let's give them half off.

Yeah.

Because we were selling online advertising to attorneys and there was like, give her two grand up front instead of four grand they pay monthly. He's like, but we're losing two grand. We are. We'll go out of business. No, your current lifetime value is seven months. Right. I'm saying you're going to get that up to two years or one year equivalent by getting half off. You're adding what's 12 minus 7?

12 minus 7.

There you go.

So you're giving five months more. You're increasing your value by almost like 40% by doing that. So yeah, it's about knowing your, the whole moral of everything, whether it's advertising offers webinars, like what are the few numbers you have to know is like what does it cost to get you to acquire a customer and what's that worth to you? And then reverse engineer, okay, so what does it cost me to acquire a lead or prospect and what is that worth to me? And that's how you really do advertising successfully is no, like I'm going to pay Facebook for a lead for $5. If I know that leads worth $8, I'm gonna keep the ads running.

Yeah.

Y so then, then you work to increase the ltv. What most people do with advertising is they're working to drive down incremental cost per lead. They think like I'm getting dollar leads. They're working to drive down leads instead of drive up ltv. Andrew Tweedo, my data scientist buddy, says this all the time is like, focus on making your average customer worth more by saying by offering additional coaching or training or products to those customers, make your customer value greater, which allows you to spend more in Advertising. I can't remember when I looked at my cost per lead. I don't care anymore because you're way higher. I'm just looking at, like, if I'm spending two grand a day, if I know that I'm making three or four grand a day, and hopefully if I don't, if I go on vacation and realize I lost all my savings. That's different. You have to look at it. But that's really the moral of the story is focus on 90% of your energy on that foundation, knowing who your customer is and your offer. Creating a visual map.

Know what you're willing to pay for a customer. Your customer value. Doesn't matter if you're charging recurring or one time. And tweak all your offers to reward people for. For paying up front. Cool.

Bam. I think that was a masterclass in everything. Continuity.

Yeah.

And selling with cold leads.

Well, I think.

Imagine if we did it sober.

Yeah. Well, next.

Next one, this would have been better. And this was better.

Marketing podcast. I think that should be it.

Sober marketers.

No, no. In fact, we've actually talked prior to this about doing a podcast where we're always drunk.

Well, if we had a super podcast, my wife and I'd be mad at me right now for being wanted to be somewhere else.

Supposed to look at a house at 3, and they. I just got 100 calls. Like, where are you?

Your son's here to go to the airport.

I'm supposed to take him to the airport.

I'm not working out like I was scheduled to do by my trainer.

I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be right now.

So no, Matt's gonna be stuck in traffic now.

Yeah.

And we probably got a lot more info out of you, so it's all good. Very cool.

Maybe Stuck in Traffic would be a good name.

Stuck in Traffic.

That could be fun.

All right, so don't be drunk.

What about Pumpkin Chuck, Punk and Chunk?

And we watched videos on it earlier.

YouTube it.

All right, so wrapping up. Just because I know you got to take your kid to the airport and Joe has to get somewhere, and I just got to go sit in traffic for a while. Wrapping up. Are there any current books that you're reading right now that you'd recommend to people?

I recommend the same one for people to get started up and scaling. For people just starting out, I always recommend asking. Nothing's better than figuring out from a target audience the problem you should be solving for them. Getting clear in their language and the one currency you solve. So part of our program, we tell if you don't have existing customers, stop, go do an ask survey, and then we can help you scale that. Number two, the Automatic customer by John Warlow, because he talks about.

That's a new one to me.

No matter what bit or read it, it's awesome. From florist to Amazon to coaches to SaaS companies. He talks about the Recur, the top five recurring models in business and the metrics you should know. And basically challenges anyone to say, show me why you can't have a recurring business. Any business on the planet should be looking at a way to do a recurring.

I agree, I agree.

Doesn't it make life so much easier?

It does. We're here right now. I mean, I.

You want to talk about, like, income, predictability, consistency, job stability, that kind of stuff. Like create continuity.

If you're an entrepreneur out there or if you're an employee, that is. And you're looking for stability. True stability comes with continuity. Not your day job, not your one.

By one, twice a year like clockwork.

Yeah.

But your gym membership gets it monthly.

Oh, they love you.

Why don't I cancel? Because I know that I'm already spent this much. It'd be a big waste.

Yeah. You know, and if I cancel, I get a lot fatter, so I shouldn't cancel.

I'm telling you that Crossfat is the best model.

There is a card in your wallet, so.

All right, so last question. Where should we send people after listening to this?

To Union Tap Room Bar down here.

All right, come meet up with us. We'll be at Union Tap Room Bar. We're not going to leave for the next six months because we're expecting you.

Cheers, guys. Pleasure. All right, man.

Thank you.

Thank you, sir. But go to Fletcher Method. What's the Fletcher method?

Fletchermethod fleshmonster.org fleshmonster.org he said it.

He said it.

All right, well, Google Fletch Fletcher Method because. And the logo kind of looks like a sperm. Just look for that logo. You'll know you're in the right place.

Shooting into your wallet.

All right, guys, we'll see you later.

Hey, thank you, thank you, thank you for listening to this podcast. Now, if you want to learn more and hear from us every single month, which a lot of people do, it's pretty fun. We actually write this thing called the Evergreen Profits Letter, and that is a printed newsletter that we actually send to hundreds of people every single month to your doorstep. So you actually get it in the mail. You can read this sucker you can highlight it, you can dog ear, you can scratch some stuff out. If you don't like that one, you say, no. Joe and Matt, that's not cool for me. But you can take a lot of different strategies, about 15 or so from every single, single issue, and it's really cool. So basically, these are actionable strategies that you can use in your business right away to test out and pretty much build on what you already have going on. So check it out. It's at www.egpletter.com. it's pretty amazing, and you should go check it out, see what it's all about.

Boom.