Adil Amarsi — Tactics And Formulas To Write Amazing Sales Copy

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float Shark with your boy.

My boy, Matt Wolf. Joe.

Hey, what's up, everyone?

Hi.

Welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast.

Yeah, we're so polished sounding.

What was that? That was like a.

Well, you know what it was? I started listening to Conan o' Brien Needs a Friend.

Oh, it's so good.

And I listened to the one with Jeff Goldblum, and he.

Oh, I've been listening to that one.

Yeah, he is. Yeah, yeah. And he does this.

You're kind of creeping me out. Cause you're doing a face along with it.

That's exactly what he does.

How can you see him?

Because I've seen enough YouTube videos and movies of him. He does that.

All right.

He calls himself very jazzy, and he does it with all of his body and gyrates, everything.

Interesting.

This is literally what he sounds like.

I've not listened to the Jeff Goldblum show, but Cody o' Brien needs a friend. Second best podcast I've ever heard.

And you'll love all the ads, too, because he actually makes them fun.

Oh, the ads are amazing.

Even though we don't have ads like he does. But. But even though he always says, I want to pay off my beach house. Yeah.

He literally says, this is a section I call Pay off Conan's Beach House.

And then he hears eagles in the.

Background, and he pays off his ads for his house with ads.

Well, one day we'll be, I don't know, running ads like him or something. But yeah.

You know what we should talk about today?

Yeah. Probably today's episode, huh?

We should talk about copywriting.

I guess we could.

You know, we. This is.

Do we have an expert or something on this show today?

Yeah, today we're talking to Adela. Marcy. Correct.

Directo Mundo.

And Joe always gives me crap. Cause I always mispronounce his name.

What do you say?

I always pronounce his name right when I'm talking to him. When I'm not talking to him, I always call him a deal.

That's true. Or Advil.

I've never called him Advil.

Okay, but it's Adolf. Shit. I correct him every time. I'm like, it's not because it bugs me. It's because Adol is a sensitive man.

Oh, you'll hear how sensitive he is on this episode.

It's total bs. But, yeah, we're talking Adol today. This dude, we were on his show last month, and he claims he's been chasing. I think you More than me. Which is totally fine. Cause you have a secret admirer.

I've been the object of his eye, his desire.

Desire.

For like five years, he said.

Yeah.

And I don't know how you've avoided him for that long.

I've never avoided him. I just don't remember seeing these messages. My gatekeepers must have been too good.

Of a job, all those gatekeepers.

All my gatekeepers.

Ankle biters. Yeah. So we, you know, somehow Adol paid us off enough to go on our ship. And I'm not going to disclose how much he paid, but it's a freaking shit ton of money.

Totally. Not really.

And.

But yeah, this turned into a masterclass in copywriting. That wasn't how it started, but that's.

Well, there's. I mean, we talk about daily routines and habits and kind of getting into a good flow with your day and things like that. And then we shift into like copywriting talk. And we've had other episodes in the past about copywriting, but this is probably the most tactical copywriting episode we've ever done where he literally gives you copywriting formulas to follow. Like when you write a headline, write it like this. When you write bullets, write them like this. When you structure a landing page, structure the copy like this.

Don't use this word. Don't. Yeah, all these different little subtle formulas and kind of principles that he uses for copywriting. And you know, of course he has deeper dive trainings and whatnot, but in this podcast, this masterclass, basically you're gonna walk away with all that stuff.

So if you've ever struggled with writing great copy for your product, you need to listen to this. And if you don't listen, you could be leaving a lot of conversion percentage on the table.

I'm sure you would be. Because even if you're not a great copywriter, if you don't wanna be, it still helps you be a little bit more persuasive with everything you do.

I may or may not have used some of Adoles copywriting techniques in those statements.

I like it.

You know what? You know what else we talk about on this episode? We talk about our traffic book for a minute.

Oh, hey. Yeah, we did.

Yeah.

Adol brought it up because he loves it.

Well, we asked what his favorite book was and obviously that was the one he mentioned.

First one, the Evergreen Traffic Playbook. And this thing is. Yeah, basically just lines out in great detail our traffic strategies because we have multiple little subtleties to all this stuff. We interviewed a ton of people. So the guests and their Favorite traffic strategies are in the book as well, and we're actually getting ready to update it. We are going to update it.

So by the time you hear this, there may be an updated version or it will be coming very soon. And we'll email you about it when it's ready.

And yeah, just make sure that it's totally free. If you just go to evergreen profits.com trafficbook no spaces or dashes. It's evergreen profits.com trafficbook and one more.

Time for good measure, evergreenprofits.com trafficbook you.

Notice that, like, Conan on his show, too, and he's not a marketer or anything, but he, like, says the aura like four or five times.

That's because he has marketers who work for him 100%.

But it's just funny to hear someone like him who doesn't do any kind of ads. And, like, he gets all, like. I don't know, some people just get really awkward and stuff. And it's. It's like he's like.

He embraces it. He leans into that shit.

He does. But he's like a total podcasting newbie. So it's kind of entertaining to. Just because I'm like, I knew what he's going through here.

Yeah, for sure.

But, you know, we're pros here.

Evergreenprofits.com trafficbook we're going to go talk to Adil Amarasi.

Oh, man. Adel, you can kick his ass. You have my permission. All right, let's go protect him.

Let's go talk to Adol.

Hey, adolescent. We're live.

Yes.

Yeah. Are you ready for this?

I think we need to tell people about the discussion we were just having before we hit record.

How do we describe that said discussion?

I think we can sum it up by singing like Day Man.

No, it was a conversation about all we study in Philadelphia. Now we all have this song, Day man, stuck in our head.

And Matt and I will learn that on guitar and serenade everyone.

Joe, can you sing it for us real quick? How does it go again?

I'll do the AA part, but I.

Don'T know the other part.

I don't either. Pal knows.

I'll join in. Where? I know. It's like Damon.

Protector of the night man.

Champion of the sun.

He's the master of karate.

It's been too long. I don't remember where the. Oh, let's go in.

Yeah. That's really all I remember. All right.

Anyway, that's a good start.

It's a good start. All right, Adol. Thanks. For hopping on the show. This is fun.

You guys are welcome.

You guys are in for a ride.

Oh, man. If this is going to be anything like our show together on my podcast. Yeah, you guys are going to have so much fun.

Most likely it will. And we should link that in the show notes as well.

Yeah, that's not even out yet.

Actually. It's not released yet.

It's not released. I think it'll come out around the same time this one comes out.

That'll be cool. So if the episode we did on your podcast is out at the same time, we'll post it in the show notes, and if it's not, we'll post it in the show notes when it is out.

Yeah, yeah, same here.

But pretty much anytime the three of us get together on a call, we don't get together in person. Cause you're not allowed to get together with us by law yet.

Soon, soon.

We always have a good time. We end up talking about stand up comedy and other fun stuff that we won't get into right now.

Now people are gonna be interested, like, why is he not allowed? And we don't leave it.

We should just leave it at that.

Oh, no, exactly. I wanna leave it like that.

Yeah.

He's not allowed in the United States right now.

He', man. No, he's not. He's not.

He's not. There are so many avenues you guys are teeing me up for. I can make jokes for, but I'm like, just don't do it, man.

All right, so you guys just caught up with me.

All right. There'll be plenty of times to slip them in throughout this conversation.

You should. You should.

Yes, I purposely said slip it in.

Let's go ahead and let's get right into it, though, and let's talk about your backstory. We're curious.

How do we describe atl? I don't even.

How do we describe them? We don't need to describe him. He'll describe himself.

Okay, cool. And then we'll figure out how to describe him.

I think they'll get a very clear idea of me at the end of this episode. Perfect.

All right, let's do this.

So let's.

Let's get into your story. How did you get into the world of marketing and copywriting and all the stuff you're doing now? Kind of tell us that story arc there.

Okay, so I'll try and keep this brief because I know I can kind of go off on tangents. So essentially, for my preamble, basically, my dad was paralyzed when I was 5 to about 7 years old, from the waist down, he had a herniated disc, if I remember correctly. And I have an older sister. She comes into like partial reason of this part of the story. You don't really hear from her part of the story for the rest of this. For what I'm going to say anyway, she basically used to. So the 90s had two channels in the UK that like you just basically fought over. You had Cartoon Network versus Nickelodeon. You had those in the us but in the UK they were like the big deal. Yeah. Me being five years old, I wanted to watch cartoons. My sister being several years older than me, I'm not going to reveal her age book because she might slap me. Love you too, sis. If you listen to this. She basically used to always beat me up and watch Nickelodeon. So I came with this idea that I'd sit down and watch whatever my dad was watching for as long as he was watching. And then when he moved, I would change the channel. And then he couldn't get mad at me because I'm like, dude, it's like six o'. Clock. Let me watch some cartoons.

Right?

So it was fine. But my dad's favorite shows were down to three things. The first one was a game show called 15 to 1. It was like trivial pursuit but with 15 people. Like, you ask them questions, they get eliminated over rounds, that kind of thing. Think Weakest Link, but far more Trivial Pursuit and more like higher level intelligence because they were asking really hard questions. The other game, the other show that he loved watching was a show called Countdown. I don't know if you guys have that in the us.

Don't know that one.

Don't think so. I'm not familiar with it.

Yeah. Basically the rules are you get.

There'S two. There's two contestants and they have three overall rounds. I think it's like they have four mini rounds, like inside the. Inside each of the bigger rounds. So basically it starts off with. They take turns where they ask for either consonants or vowels up to like nine letters. And then they have 30 seconds to make as many words up with those nine letters with the highest point percentage, like point potential. So eight words, or if you get nine, you get 18 points or six or five. I think the smallest you can go was four. You can get lower than four.

So my dad's entire obsession with that and me watching it obviously helped me come up with the love of words. But there was also mathematical component where you'd be able to pick either you get, I think it was six numbers. And you can either have small numbers which are 1 to 10, or big numbers, 25, 50, 500. They'd make up like a random number and you had 30 seconds to solve it using the numbers that were given to you. So like, okay, cool. High level problems to actually solve right then and there.

So. And the third one, which throws everyone for a loop is actually where I get most of my salesmanship from, is my dad loved watching home, the Home Shopping Channel at qvc. Literally watch Billy Mace for two hours a day. So like for six days a week, two hours a day for two years I had Billy Mace basically being drummed into my head. So obviously I learned a lot from him.

Did your dad ever buy anything or was he just like, I just love this dude. I just want to listen to him sell me shit?

Yeah, that. And it wasn't just him. There was like a few others, but Billy Mace was the main one. But yeah, that was like the huge thing back then. I was like, really? Why do I have to watch this? But I just sat through it and then I was like. When I was 12, when I was 11, 12 years old, my school teacher basically pulled my parents aside and said, your son is, he's smart, he has potential. But the problem is that he writes very, very slowly. He'll get to the bottom of the page. Like once I get to the bottom of the page, if I accidentally put like the comma or whatever, any, any punctuation at the end of a page, if I don't put it perfectly the way that I Very, very much so in my mind, I get so frustrated, I just rip the page out and start again.

Oh, wow.

Start the whole page again. So my teacher was like, that's kind of a problem. But they didn't diagnose me at the time. But if I went to school now, I'd get diagnosed almost immediately. But like back then, no diagnoses given, which is lovely. They just told my parents, please get him to write more. And that would just get him to practice how to write quickly. So my dad took this as a challenge. At this point, again, he could walk. He'd been running a company at this point. He'd been like doing some imports and exp.

In that business with one of my uncles. Basically. They used to get me to write stories for them about whatever was in the office, whatever I'd see, whatever I could think about. I just have to write a story about it. Around a year later, my parents separated for a little bit. So me, mom and my Sister moved to another neighborhood. My dad lived in another neighborhood entirely. But my school was in my dad's neighborhood. So my time to go to school was. I think I took like 30 to 40 minutes to walk to school and walk back total to now two hours a day. I had to do an hour on the bus each way. Bit of a socially awkward kid. So I just sit there and basically write down a bunch of notes and stories for my dad and just write about them all the time. This went on for years because I'd submit these, I'd give my dad these stories all the time. Fast forward to me at 18 years old. The way I got into marketing was my old Thai boxing coach actually introduced me to network marketing. First. I grew my downline team really quickly and then there was like a little infighting between me and him. It was just a bit, it was a bit weird.

So I turned to trying to get out of his downline. I wanted to start my own whole thing. So I went online and started looking at traffic exchange websites.

I think Traffic Swarm was one of them really way back in the day.

Built up my mailing list, wrote a blog post about the network marketing company I was with at the time and had 10 unique people view this page. Still a little blogger page that I had going.

I had seven of them pay me money and join my team. Like seven people. I had no idea who they were. They just joined my team. I'm there 18 years old going, what the hell just happened? It's a good feeling around this, around this time, a couple of months later, I end up going to Mark Anastasi's event in London on Traffic Generation. I was like, well this would be cool. At this point I still don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm like, what do I do? I know there's a couple of cool people, I know about Frank Kern, blah blah blah. But I'm just a dumb kid. I don't know what's going on at this event. I get really close with a lot of the speakers who end up eventually becoming clients. And I also realized at the time that I wanted to be a copywriter because the inkling started to begin because I was like, oh, people page. Right words. That's interesting. Cool. And then again they started doing door to door sales. Tried to do different things while actually trying to support myself. And then it all changed. A couple of months, a couple of days before my, I want to say my 19th, my 20th birthday. It was my 20th birthday. I got. It was a Couple of months after that first event, I was at this other event and I got to crew for the green room and the guy asked me, what are you good at? I told him the story about like 10 people to see my site. Some people paid me, they're like, oh, you're a copywriter. I was like, what the hell's one of those?

What is that?

You get paid tens of thousands of dollars to help people sell their stuff. People do that. I was like, cool. So like so excited I went out. But I had like low self esteem so I charged as little as possible because I was like, why would anyone pay me money? I'm a guy with no name. I was really good at networking. So I got a lot of like people just being very interested in like working with me, helping me train me, letting me run promos for them. And this all built up very quickly. So like 19 years old, going through it, did door to door selling for about six months at the time.

And still running like, you know, trying to write copy, trying to get clients. And at the time I was like cranking out full sales funnels in six hours.

Jesus.

Like you'd write, you'd be like, hey, I need a clickbank sales letter email sequence for the swipe file, launch page, upsell, downsell and thank you page for customers after they bought. How long will it take you? I was like, oh, I can get that done in two days or get that done in one day. I don't know if you guys remember a guy called Dax Aroot.

I remember the name.

He had this really cool. It was groundbreaking at the time because it was a WordPress theme that was like two grand for the word.

I do remember him. He was partnered with Jason Moffat for a little while.

So at the time I connected with him, I wrote a letter for him and in about six hours, it was overnight. So he sent me a thing, wrote it in six hours. That letter went out to his list for a monthly continuity. We did $25,000 the next morning on one email that we sent out, sent out. And that was monthly. That was a monthly 25 grand recurring. It was a $49 product. So I was like, cool. So I got my chops, I know what I'm doing. And this continued on. Then I started to build up really quick wins to the point that I think my first million dollar client I had was a real estate training company that heard about me. They paid me three and a half thousand pounds at the time. This is ten years ago at the time, it was around six Seven thousand. I think six and a half thousand dollars or seven thousand dollars.

I was like, wow, that's amazing because I'd never been paid that much money before.

Yeah.

But they also factored in that I'd get 3% of the first week of mailings. So whatever came in the first mailing in the first week would be give. I'd get 3% after that. It would be like their profit. But it was a 15,000 pound course. It was like nearly 30 grand to do this one year long course and have people train you or whatever. I wrote this letter, mailed it out. I remember I was still doing door to door sales at the time and I remember getting. I was in debt as well. I was knocking on the door and my phone rang. It was my bank asking me for money. I was like, I'll send you guys some money as soon as possible because I'm a commission only salesman. So I'm not very good at my job because I don't like being told no and it feels weird. Anyway, fast track that through. I'm literally there.

20 minutes later, I get another phone call, say hi, yeah. And they're like, oh please, Mr. Amasi. I was like, yeah. Could you please confirm your name? Cool, great. All your address. Like just to make you aware that there is a very large payment coming into your account. We will be putting it under review. But if everything verifies and checks out, which it looks like it will.

Will basically release the money to you inside a week. I was like, oh great. I get a call. I immediately get a call from my client, like a couple of minutes later. I was like, hey man, what's up? He was like, yeah, just double checking. The bank has said that they're gonna need you to verify some documents, but we just sent you a payment. I was like, oh cool. You guys mailed the whole thing. So I didn't even track it. So like yeah.

If I remember correctly, the figure was they did 5 million, 6 million in sales in the first week after factoring because in pounds, about half. So about 3 million sales in the first week. Factoring the refund rate and everything else like that, I basically walked away with about $150,000 at the end of that day.

There you go.

I had about 80 grand in my account at the end of that day. I was like, yep, that's a good number for me. How happy with this. Quit my job, started going down the copywriting path and just basically I wouldn't say I've never looked back because I have looked Back a couple of times, but since then I've just gone on to constantly develop my craft.

That's pretty awesome. Wait, so you were working a job? So that was the last time you worked for anyone else? Right. And you've been full time copywriter?

No, no, no. I did take one last job. I think I was 22 and I worked the Christmas period.

For a retail company. That was the last time I had a job was working for a retail company seven years ago.

Got it.

So I have a question, but I'm a little worried to ask it because I feel like it'll come across as a dicky question.

So here's one thing I've always wondered about really, really great copywriters. When a copywriter gets amazing at their craft and they're really, really good at selling stuff through the written word or through scripting videos or that sort of thing, I've always wondered why wouldn't that copywriter go and take their skill and instead of writing copy for other people, take that skill and either write copy to promote affiliate products or write copy to, you know, create their own courses and sell that course. Why? Why do so many like world class copywriters go and sell their service instead of using the skills that they have to just, you know, had their own bank account?

I can't answer for other copywriters, but I can answer for me. For me, it. Like I mentioned earlier, I had really low self esteem. So it took me a really, it still takes me a really long time today to actually even be okay to say what my results are. Need to give you guys an idea. Like we're recording this in March. As of now, I've done like 570 something million for my clients in the last 11 years of being a copywriter.

Those are not bad results. Those are actually extremely great results considering the bulk of that only came in the last four years. But the reason I can't is why didn't at least for a long time was I did do the affiliate promo route. I did actually start using. Do you guys remember Sniper sites?

I remember the name like the Google.

Sniper, like George Brown Google Sniper stuff.

George Brown, yeah, yeah, I remember that.

Yeah, yeah. So I made a killing on that.

Yeah, I could see that.

The funny thing is that system, the sort of Google Sniper kind of concept where you're creating content and raking it for SEO and then promoting affiliate products off the back end of that stuff, it still works. It's the same system that we use to make most of our money today. We just Added PPC advertising into the mix as well.

Yeah, it's a proven system. It works for sure. I think after a while I just got tired of like having to write content constantly. So I didn't want to because it wasn't in my mind, it wasn't quick enough money because I was young and I was trying to. Again, we had this discussion before where when you're young in the advertising world, sometimes you want to put your name on everything, but as you mature, you kind of want to take your name off everything.

100%.

Yeah. So like that was basically me. I was like, yeah, let's do this. And I was like, I want to like mature out and just be known for being this copywriter. But I didn't want to just be a copyright one, do all these other crazy things as well. But the reason I didn't was I have a really, I had a really hard time because I started so young. I had a hard time finding my voice. So whenever I wrote copy, even content, if you go back to like, if you look at the last three years of my social media posting or any of the video whatever, I don't put a lot of stuff out there. It's not because I. Again, it's not like I don't have anything valuable to say or I don't have anything that could teach people because I do love teaching the stuff. The problem I had was I didn't know how to put it out there in my voice and it making an effect to everyone because I try and say it but come out weird when I wrote it down. Like the concept would be really strange for people to understand. So I was like, how, how the hell do I do this? So that's why it took me so long. And now obviously I do have my own training course. I've rewriting sales letters to that and all the email promo stuff and that's going out in around the same time this show goes live.

So yeah, I'm actually moving towards that whole thing where I'm basically starting to pad out my own bank account.

But that's cool.

The other, the other other reason to why I actually still write and offer my stuff as service. Like how, you know, possibly like how other people I really care about want to work with. Honestly, it's experience. And the other is I get bored. Like I'm going to swear for a second, I get bored shitless. I get really bored. So that's why I usually have about four or five projects going at the same time.

No fucking swearing on our show. Please.

Yeah, Hel know.

Yeah. How dare I swear. Fuck.

Broke the damn rules. No, dude, I like what you're saying because I could relate to this because I think you and I are similar in the fact that we did it. Like, I did a crap ton of client work back in the day and very similar. I didn't know my voice for a long time. I didn't do a lot of public stuff because I was so interested in doing the work that I was doing. But I was demanding, you know, at first, very little money, but then a lot of money for these projects. And I'd be like, oh shit, this is a lot of money. So then like, for me, I wasn't thinking about the stuff like Matt was doing, which was training, growing an email list, doing the affiliate stuff. Like, I was just so fricking in on the client stuff.

And see, I've always been like that opposite spectrum to kind of speak into this whole conversation a little bit. I've always been really good at, you know, building funnels, doing tech stuff, doing written content that's not persuasive, just like, you know, how to tutorial type content.

Like, I've always sort of had a good grasp of the technical, behind the scenes stuff. The copywriting was always sort of my blind spot. I've read a lot of copywriting books. I have, I've bought a lot of copywriting courses. And to this day, I think all that stuff has really done for me has gotten me really good at looking at existing copy and finding areas to tweak it. But I still can't write copy from scratch to save my life.

Yeah, which is why you have me.

Exactly. No, it's true. I'm decent at kind of getting something going, but definitely it's not the skill set. That's why the three of us are talking and tomorrow.

I always think there's a weird thing that happens too, where when you run your own business, writing copy for your own stuff is the hardest copy to write. You're so close, you're so attached. There's a very emotional attachment to stuff that you create yourself. That creating copy to sort of sell your baby, that you've poured all this time and your heart and soul into, like that is the hardest copy in the world to write is the stuff that you have that strong emotional attachment to.

Right. And something that John Benson said to me when he was reading through one of my sales letters that he was helping me with was, he was like, dude, why are you writing? If you read this, it just reads like you're trying to prove to yourself that you're worthy to sell this thing. I was like, really? He goes, yeah, it sounds like someone is not convinced. Like you're not convinced that you're as good as everyone else says you are. And it's true. Like, because in my mind, I'm like, oh, God, I don't know what I'm doing all the time. And then just ideas flow out. And every so often I have that genius moment when I just stand up straight like, I'm the champion. And then two days later, I'm like, what the hell am I doing with my life? More like 12 minutes. But still, you know, I want to say two days in that time, I.

Feel like that's a typical entrepreneur right there too. So you're normal, because I know.

I feel that normal is relative.

Normal is relative. You're.

Yeah, I was going to say, but something you said, Joe, that really fascinated me was, I actually still have a hard time charging a lot of money, but a lot of money is relative because back in the day, I was charging 500 bucks for a full funnel, and today I say some, but most of my clients pay me upwards of 15, 20, 30 grand plus percentage to actually do things. But at the same time, I do take on clients that if I want to work with them, I will cut a deal with them. Like, just because it makes my life a lot simpler. It makes their life a lot simpler. And I'm like, I actually want to work with you because, again, I want to hang out with these people and get to know them because I get along with them.

Right.

And as an entrepreneur, anyone that says that this doesn't happen, as an entrepreneur, you do get a little bit lonely if you're hanging out with people that have nine to fives, because you're like, you cannot understand the shit that I go through.

Yeah, you can't, really. There's a lot you can't relate on.

Yeah. It's also like, why are you working late today? Oh, it's 2 in the morning. I've got to get this thing done as a deadline. Why? Because. Well, I said so. And they're like, well, why can't you do what we do and blow it off and do it in the morning, get up really early? I was like, because I can't. It needs to be done.

That's actually a pretty good segue into the next question and sort of topic I want to get into is, what does your day to day look like when you wake up in the morning? Do you have any sort of morning routines? What does your typical workday look like? What kind of processes do you have in place to make sure you're getting done what you need to get done? Do you have a nighttime ritual before you go to bed? I'm just curious if you can kind of quickly walk through what a day in the life looks like.

Yeah, sure. And I'll say this. I'm gonna give you guys two variations. One is when I have a lot of client work on board, like I do at the moment, versus when I'm relaxing and researching a little bit more. Because there's always two phases. And this has only recently become a thing for me, because before I used to gunslinger like crazy. Like, no, screw it. Got to work, like, six days a week and take no breaks on my Sunday. I got to make sure it was ridiculous.

So what I would do is I found that my most. The best way I can actually get everything I want to get done in my day is I have to write it down. So a typical day for me starts at 5 to 6 in the morning or 10 to 6 in the morning. The first thing I do, get out of bed, grab my jiu jitsu bag, literally run. I grab my clothes, my jiu jitsu bag, and my shoes, and I run to my bathroom, close the door behind me, get dressed, brush my teeth, do the whole thing, and literally out the door. If I don't do it that way, I won't get out of bed, but I'll just not go.

So you literally run like you're. That's awesome. I'm getting this visual. I'm like, I thought that was just a Met. No, you're actually legitimately running to get yourself.

I thought you were gonna say something else, like you have to run because you have to pee so bad in the morning or something. So that's why you're running or something.

I wish. I wish that was the case, but, no, it's never that case. Well, rarely it is, but I run straight to the bathroom. I take everything. And the other reason is because I got to get there before my cats jump down from my refrigerator. They're in the kitchen, and they know when I wake up, both my cats have this weird ritual. They know I'm going to go to the bathroom, and they race me there. If they get to the door beforehand, I've got to push them away and get in the bathroom, because if I don't, they get into the bathroom as well, and they jump in the tub, and then it's like a Real pain in the ass trying to get them out because I'm trying to leave.

I go train, I finish up my morning classes there. I get back because this is going to change after the move. So getting back to central London is a bit of a bitch. Getting back to some moving further outside of central London, it's going to be a little bit easier. But I get home around 9:15, 9:30. I take a shower at home because I don't like taking showers at the gym. Take shower at home, get dressed, have a banana. And this again is changing, but only marginally. As of now, I still train with my PT from 10:30 in the morning to 11:30. I come home, take my second shower and then I eat something and get started around midday. The new schedule that I'm going towards is in that day is once I finish training and have I shower like after Jiu Jitsu that turns into I've got to make myself breakfast and then it's spending an hour and a half just reading or drawing or creating. Basically I need something creative to get my day and my brain going after that midday till about I usually have it set to about 8pm, but the reality is from between midday and 8pm that's copywriting work is built into that. Like if I'm writing something then I go right between these hours. If I'm researching or research between these hours, then it's social media posts. If I have to make any emails, write any follow ups with any people, podcasts, I have to put together, just anything that I've got to do that's technical. Of course I'm not going to be like, yeah, I don't have the TV on, I have music on, I have Netflix going. Sometimes I take a full half hour off just to watch a really dumb show or whatever it is just to distract my brain and then come back and recharge. Usually playing with my cats. Around this time.

Around 5 or 6pm I'll have some food and get something to eat and then it's as I reach around 7 most times. Most people don't actually book anything for 7pm for me, like it's 7pm is around the time that I get shut down. If I'm on a deadline, I will work through until about 10 or 11 o'. Clock. If I don't have a deadline, I'm just chilling out. Then 7pm, everything switches off.

Just have some food, I put on a good movie, I read if I want to read, I listen to an audiobook or I go for a really long Walk. Basically anything to stimulate my brain.

And just speak to friends. I text them, I call them. I see how to catch up with people I really want to catch up with and care about. And then yeah, it's just lights out. Well, I say lights out. Usually I'm in bed for around 11, like 10:30, 11:00 clock is the time I do we want to go to sleep. But the reality is I usually don't get to sleep until about like midnight slash 1am Last night it was like 3:30 in the morning.

Oh wow.

I was up at 6, so gotta.

Get that sleep, bro.

Yeah, yeah, you guys, you guys can handle that. I'm still sub 30, I'm still under 30 so I can get away with it for like another six months.

Old men over here.

Yeah. I think the day after, like October 1st, the day after I turn 30, like that sleep deprivation is just gonna age me. I think that's what happens with. And I'm gonna be a little racist and I apologize, but I think that's actually happened. What happens to like Asian men? I'm actually Asian as well, by the way. But like not, not Far east Asian, I'm South Asian, whole thing. I have to like specify that for Americans because in England it's like, it's oh, you're Asian, so you're Indian as well. Yeah, we get that. I'm mostly Indian. So, you know.

That'S what just ends up happening is like that hustle that need to succeed that you get born with from a very young age of its expectations from my family and stuff.

You won't be loved unless you succeed. Totally a thing.

Dude, that's rough. Yeah, I can see how that's, that's a driver. But at the same time it probably knocks you down.

You're like, God, where do you think the low self esteem came from? That's like where it was born.

Of course that's where all usually everything's from. The parents or whatever they were raised, you know, it's this like freaking onion.

You'Re trying to get through societal and cultural as well. Yeah. So like going through that entire process. What was my point? What was my point? Yeah, that was so basically like you just get really tired. Like you save up all that time that you're tired and then the day after you hit it's either 30, like the day after 30 or 50 in some cases. Like the day after you hit 50 you just age terribly, like so quickly. And one of my friends from Thailand, and he's half Thai and half Chinese, I Love him for this. We were watching Kill Bill and Kill Bill Volume 2 and Paimang. Like the dude with the long, wispy white hair and stuff? Yeah, he was like, I guarantee you guys, that'll be me on the day after my 50th birthday. I look normal, I'll go to sleep normal. I'll wake up looking like that. I was like, seriously, you have no idea how much stress I have going on. I was like, damn, dude.

Yeah, I'm just getting great rituals, dude.

I'm like, I'm almost 36 and I swear if I get like seven hours of sleep, I'm groggy.

Is that too much or too little?

Yeah, that's too little.

Too little? Yeah.

No, I get about eight hours every night. I rarely, rarely get less than eight hours. But when we're like traveling for conferences and stuff, we'd never get eight hours. And I swear I'm like, groggy if I drop below seven.

Oh, yeah. Like we were at Pod. What? We were at podfest and just. Yeah, any conference, anytime, like, even tnc. We're like so proud of ourself to be back before midnight. So we can. We're just like, wow. We are. I don't know if older or we're just getting smarter or priorities. We were very.

We were like giving ourselves pat on the backs because there was like parties going on every night and we decided to not to go to them.

It's like, I could go to this, but then tomorrow I wouldn't feel great. I know. Smart, adult thinking, right?

I think this is the very first year we're like, oh, wow. This is how it's supposed to feel like smart adulting.

As we get older, the FOMO effect is like less and less. Like, I don't care what you're doing right now.

So I'm curious, is your routine, like, is there a purpose behind it? Like, you sound very structured, even though I know you get bored easily. So I'm sure you change it up. How does that work?

So the way I have it, it's very. Okay, so this is quite a fun little segue. So just a little self promo warning, guys. So the way that I teach copywriting is the exact same way that I have all the structures in my life.

They're quote, unquote rules. More like the guidelines. The guidelines on what I want to do. And then I get to fill those times with whatever the hell I want to do. So my mornings are always structured that I want to train, I want to do some form of Movement, even if it's just the reason I do Jiu Jitsu is because, honestly, it's. I just. It's my place to meditate. It's my place to let myself just be myself and creative. And I live in a big city where a lot of my friends don't live nearby anymore. So a lot of my friendship circle has, like, shrunk significantly. So Jiu Jitsu is just another way for me to connect with other people and other humans and not be like, cooped up and be like, what the hell? The world is passing outside, I want to see it. But this is a great way to, like, meet people and, you know, train my body and everything else. So Jiu Jitsu is kind of like, that's my health in the morning. And I realized it was only like, until like last September after my birthday, I realized the reason I really like working out in the morning and I don't like doing any work before midday is because most of my clients don't wake up until midday because they're in other parts of the world.

Right.

Secondly, I'm not really at my sharpest in the morning. Like, I want to kind of relax and put myself first and put my. Get my mind right, not really worry about the stresses of life. And again, Jiu Jitsu, I can't check my phone. So that. That serves as a double purpose and giving that myself time to actually, like, choose myself. So it's like you can have another training session. You can watch a movie in that morning. You can read a book, you can play a video game. You can do whatever the hell you want. You can. That. That time of my morning is all mine. I can do whatever the hell I want and go for a. I can go for a really long walk and sort out furniture buying stuff.

That's a big issue of yours right now.

Yeah. Yeah, right now. It really is. You have no idea. You guys know, because we had this discussion. I did not realize that that was my realizing that I'm maturing as an adult when I realized I'm buying my own furniture. That's kind of like a thing.

Well, and here's a little side note just for folks listening. We told ADOL about how most of the furniture is really made from one manufacturer. And Adam Ruins Everything is an amazing show to just probably piss you off a lot, but you'll learn a lot. Yeah.

And you learn about how the furniture industry is basically fixing prices to screw.

People over in pretty much every other industry in different ways. But, yeah, carry on. Just want to Throw that out there.

No, no, I. I agree. Like, you guys told me, and that blew my mind. I was like, God damn it. So much sense. Again. It's the part that, like, you hate them, but also you're like, I totally respect your hustle here. It has to be done.

But the way I look at it, like, after that, my eating pattern is something that my PT and everyone keeps telling me off for, because I've never really had a good eating pattern, but I just know I don't eat at least three or four hours before I go to bed. I like to eat and then wait a couple of hours and go to bed. My day for working in the afternoon, I realize that's where I'm most productive. When the sun is up, that's when I like to work. When the sun is down, that's when I don't like to work. I'm just like, I can do podcasts in the evening. Like, I try and schedule my shows throughout the day, but if I. That's the reason my schedule runs till about 9pm Like, 8 till 9 is my last slot for any of my shows. And I'll take calls then because it's like, I'm talking, it's okay. I'm doing a podcast. Entertaining.

Like I said, those rarely happen. The evening is just fun time. It's like, do things that are interesting, that are fun. What can I do to relax? Am I going to go see friends? Am I just going to, like, chill out with my cats and play with them? Am I going to play video games? Am I going to play my piano? Am I right? Am I going to, like, just. Am I going to find a way to, like, express myself artistically in any single way, or am I just going to try and get some more work done? Because that's an option as well. If I'm on deadline, that's an option. But nine out of ten times, yeah, evening time comes, I don't want to work. Yeah, sort of. Like, that is my time to chill the fuck out. That's my time to, like, completely unplug and send you guys really random messages that get really, really mean. And, like, I've got to find a way to respond to these. So you guys get. You get fume Cade.

Yeah, it is random oddball hours. I'm like, dude, it's like, you should probably go to sleep. Like, yeah, you do. You.

But you guys will figure this out as well. Like, you will. Like, when I'm writing, like, if I'm writing for something with a client and Stuff. I know that it's going to be like a launch thing rather than Evergreen. Sometimes you'll get emails from me at like 3 or 4 in the morning, like from my time. And you're like, is he still awake writing? I'm like, yeah, I can sleep.

Well, I'm just interested in that because it's funny. We haven't really touched a lot. Touched a lot. We haven't touched a lot on copywriting tactics and all that stuff, but would you say that this, what we're describing now, your routines and your habits and the way that you free your mind, is that a good foundation for everybody to kind of just get in the right mindset to write? I mean, for business.

It just seems like this is kind of. You're more passionate, it sounds like, about this. Or maybe it's just because we're asking the questions about this. Yeah.

We haven't even gotten into the copywriting tactics, which was the next avenue we're gonna go down.

We could do that.

Thanks, guys. Just Joe's like, wait, I thought he would. No. Okay, that's next.

It's interesting because I think this is something that a lot of folks don't talk about.

And I feel like this is good foundational stuff for no matter what you're doing. Right. Like, we're getting into copywriting and talk about some copywriting tactics with the last 20 minutes we have here. But.

As far as, like, setting a foundation for any business, I think having good habits, good routines, good sort of a morning routine and like some sort of health routine that you kind of get in the habit of doing and you have your hours that you kind of have figured out that this is when my. My brain is functioning at the highest level.

Well, that alone right there is so damn, like, smart. A lot of folks don't even figure that out. It's like, when should I work? And I'm thinking writing. I mean, that's like the most important thing you can be figuring out.

For me, it's like, if I have to do any sort of creative writing or persuasive writing, if I'm going to put my head down and write, it's not going to happen in the morning. It's going to happen at maybe starting two in the afternoon. And then my brain starts to fire on all cylinders where I'm like, all right, I'm in writing mode now, but I can't write before, like, noon. It's just not going to flow out of me same.

Yeah, I sometimes can, but again, it just takes it out of me. It's like, whenever I write anything, it takes time to build up.

It just takes a lot of time.

But one of the things that you did mention, Joe, that I really just want to answer is everything I do. I wouldn't say it isn't a bad foundation. It's a good foundation. But it's also because I've already done all the hard leveraged work that I had to do in my early years to get to this point.

So there is. There are three practices that I'll just tell everyone if you guys want, on how to. Just, like, three practices. I get every one of my younger copywriter, like, my copycubs to go through to, like, really start understanding how to write.

Yeah.

Do you guys mind if I just share those? Let's do it, like, real quick. Number one, pick a movie or a book or a video game that you are emotionally attached to. Like, when you play this, you get really emotional to it. Like, it really draws you in. Two, if it's a video game, find the cutscenes to it. Basically read that book, watch that movie, or watch the cutscenes that of that game. And write down where the emotional markers are for you and what comes up. Like, pause it, write it down. Keep a journal. What this does, it starts telling you exactly what you emotionally respond to. And if you can understand why you will respond to that and what it is that's drawing inside of you and how that arc is connected, you now have the ability to use that same emotional.

Well, I wouldn't say resonance, but the presence that you have to that emotion inside your copy, you can. Like, you're consciously putting it in, right?

Because it's typically like, it's a subconscious feeling that you're not really expressing. You just internalize something. But now you're kind of. You're really starting to analyze this.

Exactly. It's like the whole thing with. I went to watch Captain Marvel, the Stan Lee tribute at the start of the Marvel credits, that. That made me very, very teary, but not. I didn't cry, but it made me feel teary. But the one that really got me was when I was playing the Spider man expansion game Foot, like, on the. On the PlayStation. As soon as I finished this expansion game, it just had a picture of Spider man and Stanley and going, thank you, Stan, for creating this universe. And I was like, that's touching, because Spider Man, Stanley were, like, really close. And that's like a grandfather, son create a child kind of relationship. And again, that kind of roots back down to like, the reason I feel that is because of the relationship I have with my father.

Interesting.

So I have a lot of that stuff going in my own mind and that's really where it becomes really powerful for me.

And how I understand. So that's the first like task that I give every copywriter that I train. The second is to pick up a book called if you're not into this, I do have like alternatives, but nearly everyone they teach is into some form of crime drama.

So I get them to pick up a copy of Chris Carter's Crucifix Killer, which is one of my favorite books, and I tell them to read through it. And the reason is because, like, I have little tasks for them. They have to like report back to me after they've read like 10 chapters, which doesn't even take long because like, like the chapters are tiny and short. So they send me a message and the response I write back for them is three check marks. And the first check mark is, okay, do you have any idea what's going on and like, who the killer is? And they're like, no, okay, or yes, they do. They have some theory of what it is. Second is, do you feel like going to look for the spoilers? Like, yeah, it's like, what emotional is that? What emotions are you feeling? As the third, and what this does, it allows them to really understand how to set up expectation in story based copy, but also in actual reading stories. It shows you how to, to create like setups, create that emotional wanting, that constant draw, that want of pleasurable release, but also keeping someone on the tender hook just there. Like, I really want to check the spoilers, but I won't because I really want to read this book. So it's like, you won't, you won't spoil it for yourself because you, you actually want to read it. So it's, that's the second practice. The third.

Is actually really, really, really simple. And I think every copywriter tells people to do this. And I'm very similar in the sense get out a notepad and pen, not a digital notepad and pen, a literal notepad and pen, a legal pad if you must, and just start writing headlines. You know, just start writing headlines after headlines. Look at old direct response ads, write their headlines out, see how you could tweak them. And all this really kind of like it breaks down to really understanding how to write the 85% of the copy. Like that is the most powerful part, is how do I create a headline that allows people to keep reading? And how Do I start building that story up now? Of course, my copy cubs at this point, they know my system of how I write with my structure. So they know exactly where the headlines have to go, where the sub headlines go, what the story parts open to. So they understand that creation, the creativity that I have in my mind. So if you combine those three things, which is understand what the emotional markers are in your favorite movies, books or games, read Chris Carter's book and understand how to build anticipation. Want an actual desire? You can do this with Stephen King as well. But I say Chris Carter because it's a little more modern and it really hooks you in from the very get go. And the third, which as I said is basically get good at practicing headlines because that's exactly what will draw people in. So those are three very powerful things.

I like that.

Almost immediately, I love it, I love it.

Can you quickly break down headlines just for folks? Maybe a simple formula you have so people have an idea of how to start practicing these things.

Okay, so the first one that you guys know because we spoke about it on my show is never use the word learn in your headlines or any of your copy actually. And you guys can go listen to my show with Matt and Joe. Basically like just dissect that because it's a whole rant. But take my word for it, we've tested it. Just don't use that word.

Yeah, basically. In short, learn is like another effort. It's another thing you have to do.

And it's another pain that's very subconscious to people that are entrepreneurial and we avoid pain. So they're going to avoid you.

So there are three things that I teach. They're my three go tos for my headlines and they are discovered if then and revealed. So dead simple would be discover how Matt and Joe figured out their traffic, figured out how to create thousands of unique visitors every single day using this very simple traffic source, whatever it is that could be it and the sub headline to that it gives you with leaves you with revealed or if then. And I like to pair them up so you can go with discover this whole thing about like getting thousands of unique people using this one traffic source. Because if you're an entrepreneur or business owner or just an affiliate looking for a way to actually expand your reach, then you need to read every word below. If then headline perfect. If it's a revealed headline, it's 1000 uniques sub headline will be revealed. The dirty insider secrets that marketers truly don't want you to know. Brought to you by Two people who corrupted the system. Very simple as a way to actually create that story. The formulas are those three. Essentially, the discover headline has its own mini formula, which is thing that they're about to discover. Brought them down into a benefit that relates to them while also giving some credibility to you. So like, one that I would use would be.

God, give me a market. Just any market, I don't care what it is. What would be a good market?

Jiu Jitsu, since we're talking.

Okay, excellent. Let's go with like very basic beginner course for someone in Jiu Jitsu. Or actually let's do an intermediate one. Because beginner is really easy because that's self defense. Let's go with intermediate to get them to buy a course. They already like Jiu Jitsu practitioners. Why would they spend money on a course? It's dead simple. It would be because Jiu Jitsu can be broken down into eight. I think it's like six. Six to wait, hold on guard, half guard, side control, mount, back mount, and the stand up. So there's basically six positions in Jiu Jitsu that you really need to understand because there's top and bottoms of this, but 12, but still you want to understand them. So 6. You'd pick one thing. So you'd pick with like say, takedowns for Jiu Jitsu and what you do, dead simple. For that would be a headline. Let's see if you'll get. If you're getting jitters before. Shoot. If you're Sorry. If you're talking yourself out of going for a takedown against your opponent every single time you start standing, then read every word below. Revealed the three or like the 18 simple takedowns that anyone can do, even if they only. Even if they're a lowly white belt or an advanced black belt to truly round out their game. And then the opening paragraph would just basically start off with like, well, this is how I came up with this idea. The discovery statement or the opening statement to. It's like.

So that's like, you know, rat out that game.

One of the worst, two of the worst words that I used to face in class was start standing. When my. When my coach said start standing when we were sparring. The reason being I knew I could take guys down, but I was always scared of shooting for the double and overthink it. And next thing I know, I'm on my back in a weak position. I'm on top in a weak position. I'm not controlling the tempo. And of course, this really Used to screw me up at competition time. It really made everything I did a lot harder. That was until I started to discover how.

There are 18 little takedowns that you can pick up right away, implement into your. Into your game, and start reaping the benefits almost immediately. And you can be from a very, very, very low level white belt all the way to an advanced black belt. And I guarantee you, you will not know the full nuances of the system we're about to show you. The reason being, we brought in elite wrestlers to teach this while simultaneously applying it to high level competition and analyzing what makes it work. The grips, the movement, everything is broken down. But before I get into that, let me introduce myself and tell you my own story of how I went from being scared of takedowns to taking down every one of my opponents at will, no matter how good their wrestling is. And then that's when you start the story. So you have like the headline, sub headline, opening paragraph.

That's pretty damn impressive, man. Do you dictate your copy all the time?

Well, not all the time. Like I usually do it when I get hyped. Consultants.

Yeah, that's impressive, man, because you were just breaking down that formula.

But now do you use pretty much the same formula for writing bullets too? Because I've heard a lot of people kind of describe bullets as just you write a shit ton of headlines, and a bunch of those headlines, if they don't become the main headline, they can become bullets.

No, I have a different formula for bullets. The bullet formula I use is quite simple. Point out the obvious and then give them a reason. So if like, let's just say for instance, if we were looking at the same Jiu Jitsu course, like module one, for instance. Because the thing that I don't do is I don't write bullet points in my actual main copy. I put bullet points specifically in just the areas where it counts, which is when I'm making lists, when I'm telling them what they're getting. That's it. I don't do bullet points on like trying to summarize whole sections of story. Because I'm like, that doesn't need to be summarized.

The way that I look at it, at least where. And by the way, this is like a breakthrough for me right now while I'm telling you, because I'm like, oh wait, no, I really don't do bullet points. And the whole reason for it is it feels like an interruption in a story. If your story is good enough, then people read all the way through until you get to the boring parts and that's when you summate them them.

So how would you combat like the skimmers, the page skimmers. Is that where subtitles come into play?

Subtitles, yes, but it's also how you write the story. I mean people do this all the time. It bugs the shit out of me. They have this thing where they write paragraphs as if they were still at school. They're not conversational. Like if you ever read any other copy I put up, I rarely use two sentences in a paragraph. I usually use one sentence paragraphs or one line paragraphs. So the most I'll go to is four lines and turn that into a sentence and then start a new paragraph.

So it's just totally. Is that readability? For the most part, yeah.

It's literally just to ensure that when people skim through, they get the very, very, very important key things they need to understand. And all the parts that are bolded like really just get them going. And again, going back to the whole bullets thing, just very quickly I tell people what they're getting. Bao's expand. So for instance, with module 1, the correct hand grips, in this module you will uncover how to place your hands properly on a GI and no GI opponent in order to initiate the takedown. In this module, we're specifically going to cover where to place your hands on your opponent. Because placing them in the wrong place and this is in parentheses. Placing your hands in the wrong place even by an inch actually changes the power dynamic entirely. Second bullet point would be foot placement and footwork. Five drills you need to have start that you can start today. That will heavily improve your foot speed. Take down, take down offense and take down defense. And then your third bullet point or even fifth would be. And so much more. I always write in three fives and sevens, three five sevens and nines. And the last one is always and so much more because it's an expectation and it really like paddle it. It pads out, but not fully pads. It pads out in someone's mind. If you're having a hard time like finding your bullets, it just get the main ones out and let the and so much more. Let it expand in the person's mind what the other stuff could be. So when you actually create it, you know there's more than what you've actually said. You just couldn't put it into words. And this is like a little sneaky shortcut there. And coming back to the skim reading thing, people, the way I say it, like people will Skim read. Because they either know you or they're not really interested. Like, the headline is going to catch their interest. If there's a video, I'll catch their interest. But nine out of ten times the way I look at it and the way I'm actually going to be testing it is if they know you, they'll skim through to see what the product is. And that's fine. Just make it very abundantly clear where the product is, where the order button is and everything else. And they'll go by remove as much fair as possible. If they're new in their skim reading, that means your headline hasn't really done that great of a job, really. But yeah, they'll skim through. But if they don't come back and read it later, they're not interested. Your headlines failed you. Your copy is not really like keeping that engagement the way it is. And you've lost. You potentially lost a customer there. Yeah, that's the third way.

No, go ahead. Go ahead and finish your thought.

I was just gonna say the third way that I look at it as well is that, like, if someone reads your headline and it's actually a really good headline and they come back later, again, like I said, very similar to the first point. They'll come back and read it and they'll buy. And the thing I'm testing against, this is my original third point. I don't even remember. The thing I'm testing against is anytime I send an email to a very, very warm part of my list, I want to. And this is something. I build it for myself and my clients. I want to send them to a sales page that is just a summary page. It's like, here's everything getting. Here's why it's important. Click this button and buy. And it's no more than two pages of copy.

The headline is like, hey, I'm selling this thing. Read the reasons why below and here's what we'll do for you. That's just the headline. And then underneath that, no story, no nothing. Just bam, bam, bam, bye.

And that's. Those are the people that already know.

You then know, like, and trust you. So they're the most biggest skimmers that you'll find. And the ones that basically, like, need a lot more convincing and stuff like that, they'll get sent to the other one that has more information.

Yeah.

And that's something I want to test against. I want to see which one combats bad.

Yeah. One of the guys that I worked with pretty closely A couple years back is a guy named Travis Sago. I'm sure you're familiar with him.

Love Travis.

Yeah, yeah. One of the things that he taught me to do is kind of like you said, you can actually have two different sales messages for the people that are already sort of a warmed up audience that already know you versus just driving cold traffic to it. So he had this concept of essentially making a sales page that was nothing but like a headline, you know, 10 bullets and like two testimonials. And that's your entire sales page. And those work extremely well to warmed up audiences. But that won't work well to, you know, if you're just driving cold traffic from Facebook or something like that. And we've experimented with it quite a bit. We've even experimented with like putting the checkout right on that same page. So you have, you know, a headline, maybe a sub headline, seven or eight bullet points, two testimonials, and then the checkout button.

Embedded. Yeah, the checkout.

Right, embedded on that page. So it's all on a single page, like a one page funnel. And those have worked really, really, really well for us to warmed up audiences that already know that we exist.

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. I love this formula that was, that was good.

How does this same. Some of these same concepts translate to video? Or are you kind of, you know, are you like pure written sales letter?

Oh, no, they've transformed to everything. Like it's the way I look at it is when you understand. So I've alluded to this a lot, but the only reason is like I can run through like parts of it very quickly for you guys. So the way that I write my formulas, there's like 17 steps all the way through. And once you understand this formula, it's basically the Rosetta stone. And then you can go look at other things and apply this formula to all of them. So like the headline, sub headline, that's just going on the page. But if you're doing a vsl, the straight thing that you do is many people have different formulas. And that's just the truth I'm starting to understand fully is Hollywood has different genres that you have different writers for. Right. You can't have this. You can, I guess have the same director who is known for directing high world class action movies, like high octane action movies, then turn around direct a period drama.

Right.

It's usually not really heard of. So same thing happens in copywriting, except for instead of like niches, what we have is like we just pick niches but the truth is, if we have genres, there's different styles. So John's John Benson, who is the godfather of the vsl in my opinion. Factually, actually he does this thing where one thing that he likes to do is grab attention and he has the nightmare story and all of that. It's a brilliant formula. The way that I have mine set out is once I have the headline, sub headline, which is to tell them to watch the video, I go directly into that opening paragraph. So my headline say, for instance, would be discover how you could create copy in less than three hours using a very simple formula. If you've ever struggled to write your copy, I'm going to take you from complete novice to C class copywriter inside five hours. Watch the video below. And the video is immediately going to go into meet Mark. Mark was one of my students who really didn't understand how to shortcut his copywriting chops. In fact, after he finished my training, he ended up getting his first $1,200 close almost immediately. And he wrote that letter in record time. And it converted better than anything else he wrote. In fact, I have a whole hoard of these testimonials. But before I get into telling you what the formula is, let me introduce myself. So I've used the exact same formula, but I've done it in video.

And then just it's tweaking one or two little things.

Yeah. And I would assume webinars are similar, you know, it's just maybe drawn out a little longer.

Yeah. Emails are the only ones that are strange because emails you gotta kind of like, like landing pages are different as well. Landing pages are just like headline, sub headline, bullet points, opt in testimonial. And this is a reveal, by the way. I started playing with this model back in 2013, 2014 for like putting testimonials on the landing page. I'm still consistently getting 50, 60% opt in on like lukewarm and about 30 to 40 on cold traffic for opt ins. Even to the point where one of my friends had 90.6% opt in on his webinar. Wow. Which is like Mike Filsane called him and asked him how he did it and he's like, no, my friend adult did that. I was like, oh shit, that's cool. But the formula, that's the formula for Landers. The formulas for email is a little bit different. You've got to have like a subject line that's basically engaging and then you have to have an email style that's like story based and quite interesting. Like, Matt, you and I have discussed this very, very quickly where I gave you, like, a very quick outline of how I would write an email.

And the only reason I can kick that off of my mind and just go through that congruency is because I understand. Okay, where is the person that's going to read this? Where are they? So it's always knowing your avatar. And how do I specifically use the formula I have in my mind to find the story that matches them and to find the story. You guys, sorry. I'm going to give you guys a heads up. This is where I go supersonic and crazy, and it's insane. So the way that you find your story, this is another formula. Is you ask yourself three steps of questions. Number one, what was my greatest defeat? Number two, what's my greatest victory? And number three, how did I get there? When you chart that course, you have multiple little checkpoints. And each one of those little checkpoints had their own defeat, victory, and how I got over it. Stories. Figure those out. You will never run out of content.

That is gold right there.

I love that.

One of the things Joe and I talk about, and I'm sure I've probably told you this off recording before, is we try to write an email to our list every day. We want to have a daily email go out. And for me, I'm fairly good at writing the emails once I've got the concept in mind. But it's having the ideas for a daily email that I tend to struggle with. And just what you said right there is kind of like, all right, there's my sort of writer's block cure for emails.

Oh, dude. We could hash out, just brainstorm based off of that right there.

Yeah, you have to go all day long, different places you can work, and everyone has these. You might be saying that thing. I don't have that many struggles of what I did. If you're a yoga teacher, why are you a yoga teacher? Ask yourself that. Because I love yoga and it's happy. Okay, but why did you go into yoga? What was the key reason why? My back hurt and I did yoga and it really helped my back, and I started helping my mom and she started get better. And then, like, you have all these different, like, road checkpoints. So you just basically hit to get to the point where you're a yoga teacher today and the whole reason you did it was because you had a bad back. Now, guess what? You can specialize in helping people heal bad backs, and you have a business that's thriving because you just did that. That was your starting point.

So here's a question. It's super selfish and it'll be obvious why in a second. How would you suggest doing that? When promoting podcast episodes, Do I tell our guests journey or do I tell a journey about the insights I got from the guest? What would you recommend in that area?

You. It depends on familiarity. If you have huge familiarity with your guests, like you, me and Joe, we're friends.

That was such a bold assumption, Adam. But still, maybe.

Yes.

Well, I guess we are.

We are confirmed.

We're friends.

Yes. Yay. Happiest day. That was like the first time we spoke as well, that we just both went, did we just become best friends? I think we just did.

But what I'm saying is, like, so like, with us, I let anyone that knows me that I know that can, you know, we've had conversations. They've seen what I do, how I just pull copy out of the. Out of my mind just easily. Like, they've seen all this stuff about me. I actually prefer them to write an email that's kind of like, if we were promoting this podcast, I'd just want you guys to like, hey, so this is Adil. Adil is. And then just give like, a quick outline of how you know me. It's like he's this copywriter, and we met through our buddy Brad. In fact, we put out this Facebook post, and once we got on his show, he just basically ripped me for like 10 minutes before the show, saying how he's tried to get me on his show for four years. Ha ha. That kind of thing. Yeah. So we actually, after we had that call, we realized that we wanted him on our show. So we asked him, he said yes. And now here it is. And this is what we cover inside the show. So it's familiar based and it sounds like a friendly email reminded from a friend saying, hey, you need to go check this out. Whereas if it's someone that you don't really know all that well, like you've hung out with them or you spoke to them, like you know of them, you've not really got to know them. You got to know them on the show, like a little bit. You know, you've had guests where you're like, oh, this. This person's cool. But I don't think I'd speak to them like, every day if. Or like every week. I don't want to touch base with them every week. Yeah, they're just like, they're a cool person, but they're Busy. We got our own life.

Right.

We all have those people. Clearly. What I would do then is I would use, I would use my experience with their story so it'd be something along the lines of hey, so just a quick heads up, today's guest went from. And then go. They went from complete poverty, had no idea what they were doing.

Imagine you interviewed Steven Pressfield. He was a quote unquote ne' er do well until he was 40 years old, had no idea what he was doing and then things just clicked into place for him after 40 and this is all the stuff that he did and he's gone to write these amazing books. In fact, when he had him on the show, these are some of the things that we covered. And then you put three to five bullets points and then you just say also tomorrow what I'll do is I'll send out a reminder email kind of gleaning off what I picked up from this interview, what Joe and I picked up from this interview. But send us an email back to this address or just hit reply or post on our social media page and tell us what you picked up from this recording with Steven Pressfield and you have the links throughout. Now what that does, it also creates engagement, it creates social interaction. Basically makes you look great with email service providers and ultimately it builds in another reason to email them the next day. Because when you send them the next day you're like so yeah, yesterday we had some great feedback or if you haven't put any feedback, go here and leave us some feedback and listen to the show. These are some of the things that I picked up while talking to Steven Pressfield and just was really cool like this. Now you've hit them with two separate promotions about the same person over a two day period and they're completely different approaches to get people to listen.

I love that. Yeah, no, that's just knocks out even two more emails every week, the follow ups. And you can always tie it back into, you know, another product or something else that's going on in our, whatever we're doing.

Yeah.

And yeah, it relates us to that, that guest.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because with our, with our list, you know when I mail about offers, right. Like if, if I'm saying hey, here's a cool tool that we use, here's a promotion we're doing on one of the thing, one of the courses that we sell, we get like insane response rates. We get amazing opens, amazing clicks whenever I'm promoting like something for people to buy for whatever reason. When I promote podcast episodes and I'm like, hey, here's the latest and we use a very similar formula to what you kind of laid out of like hey, if we know them real well, hey, here's how we know them. Here's you know, some of the stuff we talked about. Here's like a bullet list breakdown of some of the cool takeaways you'll get. Go listen here. Kind of a similar kind of formula, but we get like 50% of like the click through rate on on podcast episodes and just content than we do when we're actually trying to sell people something. Which seems very counterintuitive to me, but I think it just shows we have a list of people that enjoy our recommendations and buying stuff, but they're not necessarily always in the mood for content from us.

Possibly. But what are your subject lines generally when you're like sending out an email for a podcast?

Oh, I mean it's all over the place on test every different stuff all the time. I don't have any sort of subject line formula for emails.

It's just a lot of how to's involved typically.

It used to be yeah, you stopped doing those because we stopped getting response from them on our list.

Right.

But a lot of times now it's kind of more blind subject lines.

I'm trying to think of an example, but it's kind of like blind to what the topic is to try to get the the email opened. Once somebody gets into the email, it's kind of a more breakdown of here's what you're going to learn on the episode. Our open rates stay pretty consistent between promotional emails and podcast emails. It's our click through rate on those emails that take a big nosedive whenever I'm trying to drive traffic to content versus something for sale.

So that's just to give you guys a quick little idea of a simple fix. And by the way, welcome everyone else to the same conversation that's going to take part. You are. This is a fly on the wall conversation.

Really?

Because I would tell them this in private, but hey, it's content will be great for you guys.

That's right.

So something you can literally take from this email and turn to a subject line would be.

If your CTR suck, listen to this. Or if you don't know how to find your. If you don't know how to find your voice or if you don't know how to create your own hero's journey, here's how. Like listen to this. Or click here. Whatever the bland headline is when you write through the copy, when you start like, so this is how we know. And blah, blah, blah. By the way, you can even throw in, like, real senses of humor in this. And like, hey, hey, Adol, just sending you this email letting you know that we actually, like, we met this other guy, he's a blah, blah, blah, great guy, whatever. And you say, by the way, you might want to listen to this if your business isn't doing these things, if you don't know what your store is, if you don't, if you're not getting at least a 10% conversion rate on your sales pages to your warm list, if you're having trouble getting whatever it is, if your webinars aren't converting at 30, 40, 50%, if give them any reasons of where they're failing in their business in relation to what that thing, what they're teaching, or what they're talking about. On the podcast that gets the click through. And you have to make sure and highlight those with hyperlinks. Put those as the hyperlinks.

Oh, got you. So you're saying if you're struggling with ctr, you need to listen to this. That's the actual link in the email.

Exactly.

If your landing page copy is less than 30% on cold traffic, not even listen to this is like, you just have that. What we cover in this interview is why landing page copy below 30% sucks. And then that's the hyperlink.

You don't tell them to click. You just put the hyperlink in the word and then you have like one very strong cta, which is like, hey, go ahead and listen to this. And this is why. So, like, go ahead, click this and listen to this podcast real quickly. If you don't, this will happen. Or if you do, this is what you'll expect on the show. You give them, like, benefits. Not just so much like what we talk about, like benefits that they could apply right away.

And it just, it's just one of those things, like, for this thing, you can even say, like, how this conversation started out really hilarious and fun and then just became like, holy shit, this is a master class that he's just like, riffing off everything that he knows to give to you.

Yeah, I like that whole. It's almost like the negative spin on. And it's not like, here's what you can get out of this. It's like, no, let's look at what you already have. And if it's not actually meeting these benchmarks that we put in these hyperlinks, people are like, oh, well, one of the things I'm intrigued now. I gotta fix myself.

Well, just speaking into that point, one of the things that Travis Sago used to always say and probably still does. I just haven't talked to him in a while, but he always said that people are way more willing to spend money to move away from pain than they are towards pain. Pleasure.

Yep, there you go.

So if you're. If we're writing copy, that's essentially like, if you miss this, here's the potential consequences. I think that's way more powerful than. Listen to this. Because here's what you're going to get from it.

Yeah. And I have a thing like, these people are in the game already. You know, they want to improve. It's not like, here's what I can do. It's like, it's great. I don't really need it, but like, no, I got something and shit ain't working right.

Yeah. But here's the real powerful aspect. You want to only make that. Here's what you're going to be missing out, like 10 to 20% of the copy, and the rest being the other way of what they'll gain.

It's a blend. It's one of the reasons why my sales letters do come higher than most others. It's because I follow Jay Abraham's law process. Like, I'm not going to stab you in the back and make you feel like you're shitty and then you have to buy from me to relieve this pain. Rather, I'm going to make you aware that you're, you know, if you don't take care of this, these are the consequences. But the rest of the copy is going to be telling you about the promised land. Like, it's not all gloom, doom and hell. It's like, hey, here's all the reasons why you want to go to heaven. But, hey, just a quick heads up. These are the things that will get you to hell.

Yes.

Oh, it's like a dynamic of conversation. They get both sides. And that's what causes buying frenzies.

Yeah.

I love it.

And it's relatable, too. You. You understand the issues they're going through and, and what they're possible, you know, capable of.

Yeah, I like it.

I love this. I know. I'm sure we can actually probably carry on for another hour and a half, but due to other time constraints we have today, unfortunately, we're gonna have to wrap up. But I can almost guarantee with no doubt in my mind that there'll be a Round two at some point. I'm pretty positive, if you're open to it. That is a strong assumption I'm making on my part.

So strong.

I'm sorry. I made the assumption that we were friends and that worked out. You made an assumption that we're gonna be on a podcast? Yeah, it's pretty much golden.

That's a gimme right there. The friends thing he was going for.

Yeah. I mean, he took a risk, put himself out on a limb, and it paid off. I think.

I think it paid off. It's cool.

We're still talking more. So it's also in public record now, so. Yeah.

Oh, shit.

You know we have editors, right?

Yeah, but we've admitted it like seven or eight times.

We're just going to dub it. No, we're friends, right? Right. No. And then just move on with the conversation and never address it again. Like, editing is magic, dude.

True. But then again, I also am relying on the propensity to know that you guys don't like editing.

You're accurate in that fact.

Yeah, you found our hell right there. We do not edit on this podcast.

Once we were joking around when you walked away for 20 seconds, Al could probably just like. Or if we walk away for 20 minutes, Adam is going to switch, spit random crap, promote his stuff, and we're never gonna know because it just goes live without us actually hearing the podcast.

You know what's really messed up? If you listen back to a transcript of this. I think I actually did that for, like 20 minutes. It just went off on a rant.

Sorry.

It's cool. If we weren't enjoying it, we would have stopped you. Trust me, that is true.

Matt and I did not look at each other and be like, what the.

Not yet.

All right, so I got a couple last minute questions before we wrap up here. You actually already mentioned one book in the Crucifix Killer by Chris Carter.

Yep.

By Chris Carter. Yep. Any other books that you highly recommend our audience go check out or that you tend to refer to often, or that you recommend often?

The Laws of Human Nature by Robert Greene. That just came out. That's an excellent book to understand how people think, act, and really is in depth.

Ooh, I like that.

I'd suggest getting the audiobook version because it's 28 hours of content. Get both. Like, use it as a reference manual. Trust me, it's worth the. If you're on audible, it's like one credit, so get a trial membership. So it's like, worth, like, the 25 bucks that you pay cool or pay dividends. The other one also pick up 48 laws of power, but you can get that on YouTube or whatever.

I've read the 50th law. That's the only Robert Green I've read. And that was the one that was referencing 50 Cent, but it was actually really good. I listened to it on audiobook and 50 Cent actually voices his parts in the remake.

Yeah, it's an excellent book. Basically every Robert Greene book is one of my favorite books. Just everything that he's ever done. So if I had to recommend one, start with Laws of Human Nature because it's brilliant.

Don Leslie does the voice for the 48 laws of power. And you guys would love his voice. It's so well for that book genre, but. Okay, moving on. Another book that I'd actually recommend everyone pick up and read.

That'S actually more to do with story based understanding is Wired for Story by Lisa Cron. That C R O N. What was.

The name of the book again? Can you repeat that?

Wired for Story.

Wired for Story.

Wired for Story. Okay, got it.

Yeah. It's a great book. Like absolutely amazing. She basically teaches you how to hook a reader in from the get go when writing a book. And you take those same principles and put them in your business. You're ready to go. But yeah, those are the books. Oh, and another one, the Evergreen Traffic thingy. What's called Evergreen Traffic?

Oh, the Playbook.

Yeah. That's a really good book to read. Like, I hear the authors like a little bit, they're a little jerky sometimes, but you know, you get along with them. They're fine.

They can be. They can really be dicks.

Yeah, but they're pretty trustworthy. I think they know what they're doing.

The prima donna's. Their egos are like insane through the roof.

There is no roof on Matt's house anymore because our egos just busted through it. There you go. It's crazy.

Do you have any, like, tools or software or anything like that that you. You just kind of can't live without now that you use them?

God, there's so many. Let's go with.

Oh, slack is pretty good though. I'm still not a huge fan of it. But I do like slack on my phone.

Slack's good. You gotta have something better than that.

Yeah. Oh, I have. Like, don't worry, I'm getting to it. Like, so Brain FM is one of my favorites.

A good one.

Yeah.

I'm surprised. I don't think I've heard anybody else Recommend that in a long time, but Brain FM really good.

I love that kind of stuff. Yeah, Brainwaves.

They've got a great update coming up, by the way, and I'll tell you guys why very quickly after the show.

Although I actually tend to do more of that Brain FM stuff just through Spotify, because Spotify has a whole bunch of that kind of stuff on it now.

I use different apps, but I'm curious about what the update is.

Send me the goddamn links to the Spotify stuff, guys. Another, like, a really, really fun app I do like to use is pornhub.

They don't have an app for that yet.

He knows.

I'm actually the guy that's helping them. Like, come on, guys, we need to do this.

You're really missing the boat here, guy. Although it wouldn't get approved onto the Apple Store.

That's probably true Android though. I don't care.

These other two apps, three apps, are for iPad only and they are Notability. Great for taking notes by hand. I actually use it for my day to day journaling as well.

Are you an iPad pro and pencil guy?

I actually got the iPad 9.7 because I realized you can use a pencil on that as well.

Oh, okay.

That's actually. You guys actually pushed me towards it because I was gonna get the Remarkable, but then you guys like get an iPad. I was like, fine, I'll get an iPad.

Which is funny because neither of us have iPad pros with eye pencils yet. We know a lot of people that do and we both have talked about getting them and we just haven't done it yet.

There hasn't been a burning desire yet or need. All right, what else you got? So that was notable, right?

Notability.

Notability.

And the last one is Procreate on iPad as well, which is an artist app. It's just really good for drawing and sketching. My thing to relax. I watch Bob Ross and I try and paint along.

That is awesome, dude.

All right.

I can totally see doing that myself. Actually.

I've used Procreate on my sister's iPad. She's an artist and I found it absolutely amazing. I did a. Yeah, I did it. It was like three hours. I was just freaking sketching my dog. Cause he could trace over a picture and yeah, it was amazing. And then Bob Ross, we were on a plane actually going to Orlando and I watched an episode of Bob Ross. I'm like, holy shit. He's just like. He just makes you feel good. I just forgot about it. And it was like 83 or something. And I could see. Yeah, everything's in layers. You kind of see the steps in procreate. It's a perfect example of how you can implement that. Now that's rad.

Oh, I agree.

Perfect meditation practice, too.

All right.

Yeah.

Well, wrap it up then.

Well, what, was there another one? Well, how about your courses? I know you mentioned that. Where can people go find this?

If they go check out the copywritersroom.com by the time the show comes out, it should be at its actual price, which is 495. If it's, for whatever reason, still at 995, just enter the key at the coupon code. Husk, Hustle. Or actually, yeah, just put hustle. And you'll basically get, like 500 bucks off. So it'll be 495 for you to actually get in. And that's divulging. All my knowledge on how I write sales copy, including 10 different niches were actually on there, like 10 different businesses. And I actually. On what I did with you guys, where I decided. Dictating copy. Yeah, I started dictating, copying different markets for them, like, one after the other. And they were like, how are you doing? This is like, I'm just making it up. And. And it works. One of the best ones was a newborn photographer. She was like, how would you sell newborn photography? She messaged me afterwards and said, I started crying. That's why I had to leave. I had to mute myself. I was like, why? She was like, because that was the story that I gave my. Like, that's the story of how I feel like when I used to do it and why I actually trained my son to do it. Because I want him to capture these moments of pure joy and beauty for the parents and families. And that generated, like, 100 grand for, like, their business.

Wow, that's amazing.

What was the. That's the copywritersroom.com yeah. Dot com.

The copywritersroom.com answer.

Hustle.

And we're also gonna make sure we link up to your podcast. Your podcast is called Adel Amarsi Unplugged. Adel Amarsi Unplugged. Check it out. They have some amazing guests coming out this month who don't have egos at all.

No, no egos. They might be an author of a traffic book that is really good, but have egos.

So we'll make sure we link up to the podcast. Hopefully that episode's live around the same time this one goes live so we can sync it all up and for.

Sure and, yeah, it'll be good because we have the same person that does our release schedule, so I'm sure I can just speak. We can speak to them. Be like, hey, that is true.

Well, that's right. You work with Tiga, too, right?

Totally forgot about that.

Yeah, just like. Just, dude, can you make sure, like, all our shows, like, release at the same time?

Well, Tiga's hearing this right now, so.

Tiga, make it happen.

All right, Adol, thanks for having me on, man.

Of course. Yeah, we'll talk soon.

Take care, guys.

All right, thank you. And I hope you just enjoyed this episode you just listened to. Now, right now, before we sign off, I have a few things I would love for you to do. So the very first thing is to go find our guest on Facebook and tell them that you loved their episode with us. That's going to help them just feel good about themselves, but also it's going to spread the word a little bit more for us. Go find them on Facebook. Everybody's on Facebook. And go say that you love their episode and maybe one cool thing that you learn there. The second thing is to go to itunes and subscribe to our podcast. Just look up Hustle and Flowchart and hit the subscribe button. And the very last thing, the third thing, is to leave us a review on itunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast and help us spread the word more. That's how more people are going to get this awesome knowledge, this. This cool podcast training, and a whole bunch of other cool, free training that we give out@evergreen profits.com so that's about it. Go find them on Facebook, go subscribe on itunes, and leave us a review. You would be amazing if you did that, but you're always amazing. So thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.

You're awesome.