Alex Charfen - Your Business Should Always Be Broken

The mantra in a crisis is, I can grow in this crisis. I can succeed in this crisis. I can help people in this crisis. I can make a huge impact in this crisis. And if you think any other way during a crisis, if your mindset is any other than I'm going to grow and orient towards the future. This is going to take care of you. Like, you will get consumed by the crisis.

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and.

Hello.

Hey, hey, hey.

What is up with you today?

Oh, man, just a tiny podcast, eh? A mini one.

A mini mini sesh. We recorded one podcast and somebody else recorded a podcast with us.

That's right. That's a good day. These are the best of days. But today.

We had a chat that went somewhere that we did not think it would go to. And that's a good thing. That's actually what we always aim to do.

I feel like today we were talking with Alex Charfen and he was introduced to us through Chris Bonetti, who we work with on Shout Out. Shout out to Chris. Thanks for that intro. But Alex was awesome. We really kind of did get into some of the mental game and the struggles that entrepreneurs go through and how to overcome them. And yeah, I really don't think Alex knew what he was getting into when he came on this show because we went in a different direction than I think he probably normally talks about when he goes on podcasts.

For sure. Well, all of us, man. So it was a great one. And Alex has an amazing story from just going to the highest highs in business and then crashing and burning and kind of back to it really quick in a short period of time. But he's also helped out, I mean, potentially millions of people, you know, in. In the US especially, I would imagine. But you'll hear how he actually had a big piece in turning around the big crisis in 2007.

Yeah, the whole housing financial crisis that we went through. He was a part of turning that around and getting things back to normal.

Huge part. So, yeah, that's interesting. But then we get into, yeah, like you were saying, the inner work and a lot of this stuff that I think a lot of us, just as humans, but entrepreneurs bottle up and vulnerability and getting into just talking about stuff you feel like is uncomfortable, all that stuff in general, it kind of led us down a rabbit hole that I think you'll have a fun journey with us, probably relate.

I think this is what people need to Hear. It's the kind of thing where on the surface you might go, oh, they're talking about mindset. That's not that sexy. But when you listen to this episode, the stuff that we talk about is literally the key to our success for sure, 100% what we talk about. This is the reason people pay attention to what we're doing.

Well, this is. I think it was during this episode with Alex. I was kind of giggling like a little schoolgirl at the end of it.

But you do that anyway.

I do.

We nerd out over the weirdest things lately. It's not tactics. It's not the latest Facebook hacks or webinar. Ooh, what's converting the feast in the corner or not? Who the hell cares? We're more interested in, like, all right, how do we hack our bodies or whatever, like breath work and like, how do we optimize the way we're doing things? How do we layer those? How do we, like, go vulnerable? Because we like even more so. And no, you know, talk about therapy type stuff. Like, these are the types of things, the inner work that is like really the system behind the tactics and everything else. It's like a lot of us ignore. What's the core thing behind what actually runs your business or life?

Well, Alex at one point on this episode mentioned that doing this one thing. I'm not gonna say what the one thing is. I'm gonna open this loop here. But doing one thing is the thing that he tells all of the entrepreneurs that come to work with him to do. And it's this one thing that he tells you to do is the thing that sort of cracks open their businesses and makes them uber successful. And it's, I guarantee, probably not what you're thinking it is.

What was it again? I'm just kidding. Don't do it. It was a trick. Anyway. All right, so. And we want to make sure to shout out. He has an amazing masterclass that breaks down. It's a three day event that's. That's basically. It's all you can get all the details. I believe it's totally free, too. Yeah, he said it was free. Yeah. Momentum masterclass.com and that starts October 6th through the 8th. Yes. And yeah, go there. Because after listening, basically after listening to this, you're going to get way more of him, but in like a structured format. This one, obviously it's usually. And you know, we explore all walks.

Of the conversation and we did take notes on this one, as we always do. So if you want those notes go to hustleandflowchart.com or text the word comp to 38470. We'll shoot those notes over to your email inbox and you can enjoy those. I recommend actually going and getting them and following along to the notes while listening. I think that's a cool way to do it.

I don't think I've ever even done that, Matt. You blow my mind.

Yeah, well, you can do that.

This is. Well, it's similar because we use Voice Dream. It's a cool little app, little hack from Rich Sheffrin we learned. And it's a little app where you can read a book but also listen at the same time. And then you could do, like, speed reading.

There you go.

It's kind of like that.

There you go.

Good call. You can even load our notes into your Voice Dream app and listen.

You could. Yeah, because it accepts PDFs. This is not a sponsorship for Voice Dream either.

No, but it's a great idea. It is a good idea. Okay, enough of that.

All that to say, go Download the notes hustleandflowchart.com comp and should we go have a chit chat?

I think we should have a chit chat. All right, Alex, we are live. How you doing, my friend?

I'm doing great. Thanks for having me here.

Of course. Thanks for carving out the time. I know it's wild. Like, right now we're talking about the crisis or Covid and all this. We're just so slammed with call after call. Obviously, we're choosing to be. But you're busier than ever, it sounds like.

Yeah. You know, I think when. When. When the world goes into crisis, I have this. I have this. This policy, almost like this. This mantra. I tell myself, when the world is in crisis, I need to be in momentum. And it's one of those things that I think, you know, offsets what's going on in the world. You know, when. When I look at a lot of the behaviors out there, it's like, when the world is in crisis, I need to go join the crisis. And I think that is the most dangerous thing that an entrepreneur can do. So for me, it's world in crisis. I'm going to get into the highest level of momentum I've ever been in. And so, yeah, I'm busier than I ever have been, not maybe than I ever have been. I'm busier than I. Than I normally am. And I'm doing a ton of zoom calls. I think the person who invents the way to Make Zoom feel less like this is going to win a lot of stuff.

Dang. Right? Zoom's already crushing it, obviously with their valuation now.

116 billion. I just looked at it yesterday. Blown away. Yeah.

I mean, more money made in a quarter than they did all last year or something like that.

Yeah. Wild.

Yeah.

That's insane. Let's get into your.

Go ahead to your point really quick about. Yeah, because I heard a really good quote. Just wanted to reference the whole thing about crisis and being busy and not running towards the crisis. Rich Sheffrin said it in some content to us or something recently. It was like the recession is basically a transfer of wealth from the meek to the bold. And if you're the meek, you're running towards the crisis and consuming on TV and all this other garbage that you shouldn't be cluttering your brain with. So brings up a good point. I think we should touch on it a little bit in the interview.

Well, yeah, I mean, I think Sheffrin's a pretty bright guy. You can tell when you listen to him. He's been there, he's done that. He's not talking from a theoretical or like a learned in a book space. You can tell he's actually been in the trenches, been in the arena, had his ass kicked a few times. And it's so true. Because if you look at any crisis in the history of humanity, that's where there has been the biggest transfer of wealth. Katie and I did exceptionally well in the last crisis. Not at the beginning. At the beginning, we went bankrupt. We got completely wiped out by it. In 2007, we were done down to zero. Within a year of our bankruptcies discharge, we were back to liquid millionaires, cash in the bank. And then within three years, we were number 21 on the inc 500. And the reason we were able to make that massive of a recovery was because there was a crisis. A lot of people are like, how did you do that in the middle of a crisis? I'm like, no, you don't understand. The crisis facilitated us doing that. And I'll give you a couple reasons why I think it's important for entrepreneurs to. To really get context around a crisis and get the mindset around a crisis. Right. Because when you look at it in a crisis, the new product that nobody's ever heard of is expected. That's what everybody's looking for. It's like, oh, we need something new. This is a totally different crisis. In a crisis, the person who's never been in the market before, but can compete with the big guys. That's actually something that happens all day long. And in a crisis, especially one like the one we're in today, so many people are in pain and have had their lives significantly knocked sideways that they need some type of a solution, some type of an out, some type of help, something to get them to the place out of where they are in pain, into the place where they feel like they're back in momentum. And so when I look at crisis, the more people who are in pain, the more that people have been knocked significantly sideways, the more that has been derailed, the more opportunity there is for entrepreneurs. And I think, unfortunately for those who are uninitiated and haven't been through a crisis and seen, like, how much opportunity is here, they tend to kind of fold into, like, the lowest common denominator and start watching the news or chasing conspiracy theories or. Honestly, these days, I'm shocked by how many entrepreneurs have now become epidemiologists or statisticians or clinical experts or like, my sister's an ER doctor and an epidemiologist, and she claims less fact than people who have no experience in either of those.

The marketer man. People want to talk, right?

It's like, yeah, yeah. So I think it's, I think it's, it's, it's interesting. So when, when, when the world's in crisis, you can be in momentum. And if you ever, like, let go of that thought, here's what happens for entrepreneurs, especially when the world's in crisis. If we think, maintain, you're screwed. Maintain means you're gonna be knocked 10 steps backwards. Because the world, you know, businesses have never grown on their own. When I was younger, I used to train women. I was a personal trainer for a short period of time. And, and I didn't do very well with men, but I did. I, I really enjoyed training women. And one of the things that I would get from my clients all the time is they would come in and they'd say, alex, you know, I just want to tell you, I don't want to get too big. And my first comment was always like, listen, that doesn't happen by accident. You're not going to wake up one night and go, oh, crap, I've got all these muscle. This is horrible. Right? And so same for entrepreneurship. Like, I've never, I've never heard an entrepreneur say, like, I just don't want my business to grow too much, you know, because business doesn't just grow overnight, like lifting weights. You have to do it over and over and over again. And so if you're thinking maintain, you're out of the game already. The mantra in a crisis is, I can grow in this crisis. I can succeed in this crisis. I can help people in this crisis. I can make a huge impact in this crisis. And if you think any other way during a crisis, if your mindset is any other than, I'm going to grow and orient towards the future, this is going to take care of you. You will get consumed by the crisis.

Boom. All right, let's take us back, Matt, because this is perfect. That was great, man.

Yeah, we're going to circle back around to that. I want to introduce you to.

I mean, we kind of jumped in, but I caught a vein of something.

I had to say something.

Yeah, we're going to come back around to that vein, but I want to. I want to get the backstory a little bit for the audience to give some more context. So what were you doing before you were an entrepreneur? And then let's. You know, as quick as you're able to, let's kind of go through your journey a little bit, and then we'll. We'll circle back around to some of this.

Yeah, you got it, Matt. So I've been an entrepreneur for as long as I can remember. You know, when you say, what were you doing when you were an entrepreneur? In our company, you know, in our content, we have these. This. This piece of content we call the three awakenings of the entrepreneurial personality type. I feel like there's these three milestones that we step through. The first one is when you first knew you were different. I think every entrepreneur has this time period where they look around and they go, man, you know what? I really am fundamentally different than the people around me. And for. For some people, that's 12. For some people, it's 17. Like, when I go and speak in front of audiences, sometimes I'll get. Somebody says, like, 47. You know, for me, it was as soon as I encountered anybody outside of my family. So I've always been an entrepreneur.

Yeah.

You know, the second awakening is, as we call it, when you realize you have this innate motivation, like the engine is on and you can't turn it off. You guys feel that? Oh, that's.

That's what got me in the game. Yeah. Around 18 or so.

Yeah, you have to. Right. And then the third one is the call of contribution, like wanting to go out and change things and make a difference and do things in a different way. And I had all three of those from a Very young age, like even when I was a kid. And most of the reflection that I got back from the world was that I was not good. Like I was broken in some way or I was like I wasn't a good student. I didn't know how to apply myself. I didn't like all kinds of things that were imposed on me. I still felt different than everybody else. Like I couldn't turn it off. And for some reason I wanted to help everybody. And so that's for me. I was an entrepreneur since I was really small. And my journey was, was like a lot of like I think born entrepreneurs. I sold stuff in school. I had like little businesses when I was a kid. The first real business I had was a window washing company. I started when I was 16. I had to sell it when I was about 17 and a half because all the paperwork I had signed. Everybody assumed I was 18 years old when I found out I was a minor. I had illegal business licenses, illegal insurance. I had to, I had to sell it to somebody else who like took it all over so that I wouldn't get in trouble.

It's good. You got to sell it. At least you didn't just dump it, you know.

Dude, I made nothing. It was horrible. All right, nevermind the business making like 3 to $500 a week. And when you're 16 or 17 years old, 3 to $500 a week is a huge amount of money. And so I had to sell it for a song just to not be in trouble. Then in college, a friend of mine and I started a financial consulting firm which sounds really impressive. We were doing billing and collections for fraternities and sororities. So we didn't have any idea of market scope, market scale. But we wrote this really. My friend Price Givens wrote this really incredible software program for automated billing. So we ended up selling that business and selling that softw. He did very well. I did kind of well. And we sold it to a company that did utility billing. It would have been so much more badass had we just started as utility billing software. Right, right. But we didn't have the vision for that. And then, you know, coming out of that business I became a consultant. And it. And I tell this story all the time and somebody recently pointed out that it was like, it's kind of unbelievable. So let me give you guys some detail. I was, I moved out to. I was living in California with Price when we were running the financial consulting business. I moved out to Florida. I was working through a buyout of the Software with a company called EnviroCheck. And there was a CEO there named Cameron Kuhn who is legendary in Florida. He actually bought like all of Jacksonville and all of downtown Orlando and then had this catastrophic collapse. And he's like responsible for the corruption of Jacksonville and Orlando after I worked with him. But like, that's the level of entrepreneur he was.

You got in his head, so. No, I'm just kidding.

Oh, dude, he did the craziest stuff. He had about a $3 million business and in the first, the eight months I was there, we went out and sold eight or nine million dollars in business. So it was a very small, you know, it was a business that was kind of getting started. We went out and sold a bunch and he tried to deliver it all in like three or four months. And it was a two year delivery plan. It was disastrous. So I ended up leaving EnviroCheck and a friend of mine named Richard Thall was interviewing with Fuji, like fujifilm, the Fortune 100 Fuji. And he's like, hey, you should come on this interview, you know, make me look like I have a bigger team. You'll get some experience of being in an interview like this. So we go and Richard was interviewing to represent Fuji in New York and they had a position open in Florida. But that's not what we were talking about. Well, by, by about 20 minutes into the interview we started talking about Florida because that's where I lived. I got along really well with the two guys from Fuji. And about a week later we found out we got Florida, not New York. And so in about a week I opened a consultancy, became partners with Richard Thahl, and Fuji was my first line. We went and got SanDisk after that. Then we got Fuji Media. So we had Fuji Media, Fuji Digital Cameras and Sandis. So the company that I worked with in my early 20s put the first digital cameras into retail at Office Depot and the first memory cards into distribution at Tech Data.

So it was, it was crazy at 20ish or so. Yeah.

And it sounds so impressive. But guys like, I swear I tell people, you know, as soon as I signed Fuji, I started holding my breath and I learned how to breathe again at like 32 because it was, it was like business and life where I always felt like the water level was here and I was barely getting any oxygen. And so I did well. I built a pretty impressive company, but I almost killed myself. By the time I was 32, I was over 300 pounds. I was on five prescription medications. I was about to be given a six just to deal with the side effects of the first five.

Geez, that's good.

Yeah, it was one of those things, you know. So I'm always careful to tell both sides of the story because I can tell, like, the introduction on stage story, you know. In his 20s, started a $250 million sales company. Multimillion dollar business, you know.

Yeah. And he goes, wow.

And I'm like, yeah, you should see the pictures.

It wasn't so hot. And so out of. You know, I met Katie in my early 30s, my now wife. And I left that business. I sold out of it. Not for anywhere near what I could have. I decided I just didn't want to do it anymore. I had built a business where the entire thing was reliant on me. And I was working seven days a week, 10 or 15 hours a day, and some days, 20 hours a day. And I'm not exaggerating. Like, I really did go to sleep at, like, 1 in the morning, wake up at 5, and keep going.

My gosh.

Yeah, it was brutal.

It was. Was it your wife that really was the catalyst to get you out of there?

You know, not her insistence or anything, but when I met her, she changed my impression of what I wanted my life to be like. Prior to meeting Katie, it was kind of like, you know, I'm working all the time because this is where I feel comfortable. And then when I met her and I would have to travel or leave or I didn't. I couldn't spend time with her. Like, this is. This is not what I want. And we. We almost immediately started talking about kids and building a family and getting married. And I'm like, man, I'm not going to have kids and be gone nine out of 10 days.

Right.

And so. So Katie and I, you know, I sold my business. I retired for, like, five or six weeks. It was horrible.

Well, retiring is kind of impossible for a true entrepreneur. Yeah.

And so it was like. I think it was probably week three where Katie's like, maybe you should find something to do. Because I was like a caged lion, you know, I'm, like, walking around the house all day, like, not knowing what to do. I'm, like, wanting to do something, going on a walk, coming back, getting a glass of water, going on another walk. I didn't know what to do.

So many ideas, but I can't do anything.

Nothing. So. So I ended up, like, I. Probably six weeks in. I ended up buying a house to rehab as, like, to fill my time.

Sure.

So if you're ever in A place where you're looking for a hobby, buying house is not a good idea. Like it was a very expensive hobby. But within a few months, like really within about six to nine months, Katie got her real estate license. She became one of the top realtors in south Florida. I got my mortgage broker's licen since I was doing a ton of mortgages. But where we really made money was we became probably the largest single family home buyers in south Florida. We were transacting, transacting somewhere between 12 and 20 homes a month. And we were some, we were buying some, we were wholesaling some, we were rehabbing some we were holding. And over the course of three or four years, we built this massive eight figure business. And in 2007, you know, it wasn't. The rug got pulled out from us, the floor under the rug collapsed. And then we went through it. Jesus, it was horrible.

And so how many, how many homes were you, I guess, under contract or how many did you own at that time?

We had, gosh, I remember we had something like 80 mortgages that went into foreclosure. But we also owned some properties outright. So I don't remember exactly what the count was, but it was dozens.

That's enough.

It was tens of millions. Yeah, it was brutal.

Wow.

And so we, we ended up, you know, we went bankrupt and in bankruptcy. I started, this is how we got into the online marketing space. This was really how we entered was in bankruptcy. We started getting all these notices from the mortgage companies. And I've started reading the foreclosure notices and thinking like, man, this is not how you should do it. Like, this is not communicating well, what's going on. People are going to start abandoning houses. People are going to start throwing the keys in the door and walking away. And that ended up happening very quickly. And I started writing this, this product, which originally I thought I was going to write a product to help homeowners who were in foreclosure. So I sat down and I'm like, man, this really hurts. It stings. Now that I've gotten this foreclosure paperwork, I'm going to help homeowners in foreclosure because I gathered a ton of expertise on it just by investing in real estate and then by reading and figuring it out. And what ended up happening was that product morphed into the certified distressed property expert designation that we sold to real estate agents in the first year. In 2007, we made about $100,000. In the second year, we 500. Third year we did 7.2 million. Fourth year, we did 9.9. And we were number 21 on the Inc. 500 list. And so over the course of that product's life cycle, it. So we sold 49,700 units. We had about 47,600 people graduate. So our adoption rate was 96%.

Wow.

In the information products world, adoption rates are usually 4%, 96%.

Don't adopt. Flipped it.

Yeah, yeah, we flipped it completely. Over the course of time, it did about $70 million. And in 2013, the US treasury came to our office and we started the company like in bankruptcy in a rented townhome with the saying our slogan was solving the foreclosure crisis one homeowner at a time. And the day that I wrote that on a board, I looked like a crazy person because we were bankrupt. We were literally like budgeting for groceries and gas and stuff. And in 2013, the US treasury came to our office and Lori Maggiano, who was a director at both the treasury and then she worked with the FHFA, said that we had pulled forward the foreclosure recovery five or seven to 10 or five to seven years to get the numbers right. So she actually confirmed that we helped the country recover from the foreclosure crisis.

Just through better educating people.

So here's what happened. We ended up working with most of the major lenders, most of the major brokerages. You know, I was a consultant. So I had this unfair advantage that I understood how to be in a boardroom and I underst how to be in a really high pressure meeting and actually thrive in those situations. I love high pressure and I love where other people are uncomfortable. And so like I was in a foreclosure, Foreclosure and short sale roundtable in Washington where I sat one chair away from director Lockhart. And by the end of that four hour roundtable, he was referring to me almost like he would. Somebody would ask a question and he'd go, Alex.

And so I had this unfair advantage. But the way that we were able to pull for the foreclosure recovery was we showed real estate agents how to help people avoid foreclosure. And by avoiding foreclosure, we sped up the recovery process significantly and calculably. We helped millions of people avoid foreclosure.

That's absolutely amazing, man. Yeah. So you're taking your previous knowledge from all these different layers, but then this new digital marketing training thing, you put out into the world. 49,000. What, 700. Is that what you said? Went through it. But think about the trickle effect that happened from. So, yeah, not only them, maybe they went through the course, but now other people, like the agents, they're all, you know, it's a butterfly effect. It seems like what happened, it was intense.

We also had at one point a$99, like software as a service, marketing and like marketing and information platform. And we had about, at our height, we had 5,600 people on that platform on a monthly basis. So we had the core business and then we had about a $6 million SaaS that sat next to it. So it was a very intense time in our lives, I bet.

Wow, that's so cool, man. And I heard, I think from, I think it was from Chris actually Benetti, who connected us. Shout out, got it. Got to put it out there. Yeah, he is. He's awesome. But the big, big banks were even shouting you out, right? Like they were all referring business your way. Like what the chases of the world.

And all that happened. So this is crazy. So we, we had this three day period where overnight it was like somebody had turned on a faucet and suddenly all these leads started coming in and then all these sales started coming in. And most of the time we could predict like, I'm going to be on Fox News, we're going to get a bunch of leads. Once they filter down, we're going to get this many sales. This was out of nowhere and we had no clue what was going on. I think it was either a two or three day period. It might have been like end of one day to the full day, next day to the next. Morning. We figured it out. Somebody faxed us this letter that Citibank was sending out to anybody who was in foreclosure. And instead of sending the foreclosure paperwork first, they were sending a letter that said there's options, you can avoid foreclosure. Contact a certified distressed property expert. And they gave them from our website.

Whoa.

So overnight we started getting all these people hitting our Realtor pages and then all these realtors were like, oh God, if I don't have this, I can't. Like Citi's telling me that I can't even work with them. So it started to look, this is, it wasn't a requirement, but it started to look like it was a requirement to have our designation. So we got a ton of people that came in that way.

So freaking cool. I mean, so you can't control that, obviously, but it seems like you did the work in the boardrooms and all These discussions and of course, did the work prior to all that, too. And just a perfect blend that happened for you.

Yeah. I mean, but you gotta understand, too, it wasn't. It wasn't always that clean, Joe. You know, in 2009, well, really, 2007, 2008, I was out saying things like, hey, you know, this is gonna last seven to 10 years. And everybody at that time was saying six months to a year. And so I was called crazy and Chicken Little and an exaggeration and. And, you know, don't. That I was not credible. And all of the brokerages and banks that said that I was not credible and crazy and chicken little, by 2009, they were our clients or they were at least taking our advice. And so it was. It was a significant uphill climb at the beginning.

Yeah, yeah.

I kind of want to. I'm just thinking, because I know this is a big part of what you do is essentially teaching entrepreneurs, small business owners, kind of the way of Fortune 500 companies how to operate and all that. How did you stay afloat? I'm sure there was a lot of that going on, but with that influx of people like, like you said you would go on Fox News, you would expect some. Some. Some leads coming in or sales. How did you handle that influx with just like, you saw this unknown wave. Well, you didn't see it. Unknown wave hit you. Now what?

There was a combination of things. Well, first, we broke a lot of stuff, and we were just candid about it and transparent and, like, if somebody complained, we would reach out to them and say, hey, you're totally right. What can we do to make this better? We broke stuff. Stuff all the time, especially in the early days. In fact, I share often this story of a client who's a close friend of mine now, his name's Joe Pryor. In 2000, I think it was 2009, he bought our product. We didn't ship him what we were supposed to ship him. We shipped it somewhere else. He called in, we shipped it again, shipped it somewhere else again. He called in a third time. We told him he already received it. So he hung up on us and was like super mad and went on a blog called Active Rain that's really well known as in real estate. And he made a post that was titled.

Don'T rush to go out and get your CDP designation. And at the time, I had Google alerts set up for CDP. So within 20 minutes of him hitting post, I knew that he had posted. I picked up the phone and called him and I'm like, hey, man, I read your post. You're totally right. We screwed up. What can we do to make this better? And my first, like, right away I said, joe, you know, before you say anything, I just want you to know, like, here's my resolution. I think we should refund your money, send you the materials, let you get the designation, and then, you know, let's, let's just, let's, let's call it that. That is, that's for the pressure and the challenges that you went through, especially at this time. I think that's what we should do. And his immediate response was, you don't have to do that. Nobody's ever called me like this, like, this is amazing. I would. You know, I really appreciate you being candid. And I've been there. I've had trouble in my business before. Do you think you can get me the materials by tomorrow? Which I of course said yes. And then I like hand walked that crap over to FedEx and made sure.

Overnight.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It was like priority overnight with signature.

That's right.

He got it. I could text him and say, hey, did you get it? And he became a close friend because by repairing that way and sticking with him, he actually turned around and he's referred a ton of people to us. So for me, the way to grow a business is I think too many entrepreneurs want to grow a perfect business. I don't. I have this saying that I share with our members all the time. Your business is broken. And if things go well, it always will be. Because a business that has no problems is a business that is out of business. Business reality, that's just how it is. 100% of businesses have challenges and problems. And so for me, it's about building a business that's adaptable, that can overcome market conditions, that can do what it needs to do. And while not one business that I've ever run have I run it perfectly. As I've gotten older, I've gotten better at creating more coherent and congruent teams, getting out of the way more, letting people take responsibility more. And thankfully, at the time where we had that huge growth, we had an executive team that included my wife Katie and I. So there was the two of us and three other people. So the five person team was able to take care of it. Not perfectly and with a ton of challenges, but we were able to get through it and continue growing.

Wow. Wow. So what are some of the pieces like for the not perfect businesses? Which makes perfect sense too. It's almost like this. There's a friend, Angelo Cisco, recently told me. He's like, I'm an 80% kind of guy. I don't try to be perfect. I'm like. And that just impacted me. And I've been living by 80%. I'm like, yeah, I just feel happier. And I feel like business is probably better, too, and everything else. But what are the things you would sacrifice? I guess. And maybe that's not the right word, but, like, what's the 20% or so that you would say? Okay, well, that doesn't have to be perfect to continue on.

Well, it's funny that you use the 80%. So here's how we coach people. So you know, what our company does today is. Well, let me take a step back. What I've always been terrible at in my entire life is process, structure, and routine. And I've always had a hard time getting things done. I've had a hard time, like, showing up to the same meeting twice and treating it the same way. I've had a hard time getting through the morning, like, two days in a row and getting out of the house at the same time. Like those, those. I watch other people do it and I'm like, how do they do that? That's so amazing. They just got ready and they didn't even think about it. I'm like, you know, stuck on the stairs somewhere reading a text message or something. And then I get distracted and I'm on a walk trying to think about it, and then I'm like, oh, crap, I've got a morning that I need to go attend to. And so when I was 10 years old, I got my first written morning routine, right? I created my first written morning routine. It was because I kept. I was late to school perpetually. And so I didn't even realize I was doing something that was going to help. I was doing something that I thought was going to, like, correct how broken I was. I didn't tell anybody about it. I didn't share it with anybody. And it wasn't until I was in, like, my 30s that I realized, like, wait a second now. I've built so much process, structure, and routine. This is what everybody else needs. And so for me, when you say, what 20% do, you leave out. Here's how we coach our clients, and this is how we run our company today. We show people how to create a strategic plan every 30 days. A simple, lightweight, easy to understand strategic plan. And then you do everything you can to finish 80% or more. Because if you ever get to 100. You should celebrate and go buy everybody's stuff and get really excited about it. But here's what we know now. Having worked with entrepreneurs for decades, if you hit a consistent 80% on your strategic plan month after month, you are going to crush your competition, take over, lead your category. You know, and here's, here's the trade off. If you as an entrepreneur want to hit 100% every month, you're going to be running your team into the ground, overclocking everybody. Cortisol, stress, frustration, all that stuff. And so the sooner we get past the perfection thing and we just look at progress instead, that's when we really start to crush it as a entrepreneurs.

That's good stuff, man. And consistency. It keeps you consistent. If you're perfect or trying to be perfect all the time, it's just this undue stress. And like you said, cortisol, I mean, that's where people burn out. They, they have bad things happen to their body. Heart attacks, stroke, whatever, you know, all these stress inducing things.

Shitty. Just like 15 minutes before I got on with you, the two of you, I was making some notes from, from a meeting I was just in and I had, I wrote down a title of a podcast I'm going to record. Not title a subject. I don't know what the title is going to be, but the subject's going to be is how vulnerable conversations. So people know what's going on with you.

Yeah.

And it's one of those things like when there's stress and when there's challenges and issues going on. Most entrepreneurs try and deny all of that. They don't even want to admit it. I'll share something really personal with you guys. So I've been dyslexic my whole life. I didn't know it until I was in my early 30s when I finally saw a therapist who's like, hey, you know what? What you're describing really sounds like dyslexia. It doesn't sound like you get tired when you're reading it. It sounds like you've got something else. And I went and got, and of course I had it. And for me, admitting that to people was one of the hardest things in my entire life. Like saying it out loud was, was so difficult because I was from this consulting world where you never let them see you sweat. You keep the veneer up and that's more important than what's really going on. You know, you, you don't ever admit weakness. You're always showing up with the answer you always have to be on. And that's how I live my. So my whole 20s, I live that way, and it almost killed me. And when I. When I. In my 30s, when I. Like, I remember the day I walked into my team, and I'm. And somebody was like, hey, can you read this and tell us what you think? And I looked at it, and the headline was in script, like, cursive. And I said, I'm dyslexic. I can't read this. You need to tell me what it says. And I think we should change the font so everybody, like me can read it. And I remember, like, having this lump in my throat, like, holy crap, did I just say that out loud? Well, the next day, the designer that we had had redesigned everything so it was way easier to read, had used fonts. He looked it up and said, like, what fonts are better for people with dyslexia? Well, here's what's ironic. They're actually better for everybody. So we started designing everything so that I could read it and so that I could use it, and it actually improved the business. But what was more important was people now understood that, like, every once in a while, if I was reading something and I was slow, or if I wasn't, like, on it, or if they handed me something in an event and I was in front of a big group of people, they're not saying, hey, Alex, read this. And it's in handwriting that I can't read. And so by coming clean on that and telling people what was really going on, I get a tremendous amount of support. For some reason, the type of dyslexia that I have makes calendars like, dude, calendars are like kryptonite to me.

Do they just blend everything together?

I was just explaining it to Brooke, who's somebody who's onboarding in our company right now, and she's helping with my calendar. I was explaining it to her this morning. I said, brooke, when you pull up the calendar, when we pull it up and we're talking about it, I want you to know, as I look at it, the blocks are moving around, and it doesn't really feel right, and I can't really focus on it. And the more focus I put on it, like, I can't really understand, you know, I have to, like, print out a calendar and do it on paper and then go compare it to the screen to understand what's going on. And I would have never admitted that 15 or 20 years ago. And I said that. And Brooke's like, well, I'm really good at calendars and I can't speak like you do. So we're a good team. And, like, you know, it's so funny, we have this fear of being vulnerable, like, oh, I can't tell people what's really going on with me. And if you do, it becomes a non issue. It makes you more human and you actually get the help you need.

Doesn't it feel like everything else in life just kind of momentum, like everything speeds up a little bit easier, there's more flow. If you just kind of put something out there that you feel like you like for some reason. Not that you shouldn't, but you just feel like, I'm just uncomfortable. This isn't right. This doesn't feel what other, other people are doing.

I feel like friction kind of disappears as you have more and more those vulnerable conversations. I know, like, even just thinking about, like, conversations I have with my wife, a lot of times there'd be things that I was like, I don't know if I want to approach this conversation. And. And it was always sort of a struggle. But then after the conversation, life always feels just a little bit easier, a little bit better. And it's the same way in business with, like, Joe and I, we've been partners for 13 years now, and we've learned that we can literally tell each other anything and nothing's off the table. And it just makes everything feel so much. There's just so much less friction now.

Yeah, well, I mean, first having a partnership, like, I have that type of relationship with my wife where I can tell her anything. And having, having that type of relationship with just one person on the planet changes who you are as a human being.

That's right.

Because, you know, I always tell people, you know, accepting someone for everything that they are can give them everything and cost you nothing. It really costs you zero. Unless you have, like, opinions and judgments and stuff about people that you can't let go of. You know, for me, like, I've. I've dropped all of that crap. It's like, come as you are, I'm good. I don't care who you sleep with and what, what sexuality you have and what gender identity and all that. Like, if you're human and you can perform and crush it on our team. Welcome. Let's do this right. And so you know, when, when you judge others and you have perception of others, you're gonna end up with that same judgment and perception yourself. So the more you can let go of it. I agree. It's like Friction naturally goes away and momentum just occurs.

Yeah, no, I truly feel like that's one of the sort of keys to success, at least in our business. Over the last several years, with this podcast specifically, we actually started doing episodes on this podcast that we call Therapy Sessions. It's literally me and Joe talking about the shit that we're struggling with in the moment and just letting whatever flow out, flow out. And those are some of the most talked about conversations. Those are the ones that I think have built the most fans. And I just find it so fascinating. Like, I don't quite grasp why people struggle so much to have those conversations. Obviously, they're called difficult conversations for a reason, but, like, yeah, after you've had a lot of these conversations and you see how much life gets easier from them, you kind of start to think, like. Like, why don't other people see this? And so I'm kind of curious about your thoughts on this because you said you're going to do a whole podcast episode about it. So why do you think these difficult conversations have to be difficult?

I think there's a lot of people who are afraid of who they are. I think there's a lot of people who have a fear of revealing who they are because they feel like they're going to experience judgment or pain or they're going to be looked at differently. Are they going to break the fragile veneer that they built up around themselves? Especially a lot of younger people. I think when I was younger, I was that way. You know, I can totally empathize with that feeling. I remember. I remember walking into meetings and thinking, oh, man, I don't know that person's name. Okay. I'm not going to ask anybody. I'm going to do everything else I can to figure out what their name is before anybody knows that. I had, like, a jinx in the armor coming in here, you know, and that was. That's minor. Like, there was so many other things that I did that were just ridiculous and silly, that if I had just said, hey, I have no clue, it would have been better.

And I think that it takes the courage to step into vulnerability and say, I don't know, I don't get it. I need help. I'm frustrated. I'm confused to realize that this is what happens almost every time, especially for us as entrepreneurs. I think Brene Brown said, when you show that you're vulnerable, it makes you feel small, but to everybody around you, you look like the biggest person in the room.

That's right.

Or something like that. Paraphrasing but when I first read that, I didn't believe it. And then when you really think through it and test it, that's really exactly how it works, you know, when I've been in an event, one of my closest friend in the world died last year. His name was Sean Stevenson. And the way Sean and I met was we were at a genius network event, and we were sitting at the corner of two tables. I was here, and Sean was here. And Sean shared something really personal in the room. And he started crying, like, in the middle of a mastermind. Like, not at. Not at a time where anybody else was crying. He was like, hey, who's got something going on? And next thing you know, Sean's sharing that he was having some serious trouble and, like, waking up with night terrors. And he's shared this publicly before. I'm not breaking a trust.

And I was like, man, this guy's amazing. And so I reached out and I held his hand and actually grabbed his hand with my right hand, and I, like, slid over and put my arm around him, and he just kind of wept for, like, a half hour, 45 minutes, and I held him the entire time. And I remember sitting there thinking, jesus, this is one of the strongest human beings I've ever touched. And Sean was 2 1/2ft tall and weighed, like 50 pounds and couldn't walk and was confined to a wheelchair and had osteogenesis imperfecta, where his head was huge and his body was small and his arms were all twisted. But, dude, in that moment, that was the strongest person I've ever been around in my life. And that half hour of sitting there and being with him kicked off this incredible friendship.

Where he would challenge me to be more vulnerable. He would challenge me. I remember I did a Facebook Live one morning, and the second I was done, I got a text message from Sean that said something like, hey, that wasn't very good. Let's talk.

And he's like, alex, you know, and, you know, Sean had kind of a different voice. He sounded like a, like, almost like a character. He's like, alex, you know, I was just watching your Facebook Live, and I liked it. It was okay. But. Well, no, it wasn't that good. It's like he went on to tell me, he's like, you know, alex, be more vulnerable. Be more real. Share what scares you. Share what you don't want to share. And I remember, like, in that moment thinking, this is exactly what Sean does. I've seen him on stage. He just goes up there and he shares the stuff that nobody else will talk about. And then he gets 7 minute standing ovations where people are just bawling in tears. And so I feel like I adopted some of that spirit from him probably around 2013 or 14. And it's just. It's carried me the whole way through.

That's so cool. Yeah. I was watching some people post recently. Our buddy Brad Costanza was posting a dance party that him and Sean had like last year. So I was like, all right, I'll move my hips.

Yeah. Never got the opportunity to meet him. But everything I've heard about Sean is absolutely amazing and what you just described. And I know he's not one of or wasn't one of judgment either, but I know that's something that like all of us, I know. I still, you know, it's like there's like this kind of default mode that a lot of us have. How do you keep yourself from judging a situation, a person, whatever it might be, and keep yourself in that, you know, in that good, open, vulnerable space? Yeah. When someone else is trying to be vulnerable as well.

Yeah. For me, it's a daily, daily effort. It's not. I'm not going to say that it's easy. You know, I think having been a consultant and having come from a childhood that was really full of trauma, trauma from teachers, trauma not, you know, not purposeful or even understood trauma from my family, but like feeling different, feeling outside, I always felt separated and removed. And so I feel a tremendous amount of judgment because for a lot of my life I felt judgment. So I learned how to reflect that back to the world. And in 2008, I met a guy who became one of my all time most important mentors. His name was Howard Brinton. And I did not learn a lot about business from Howard. He was not a great businessman. He was a longtime speaker in real estate. I remember one time I asked him something about my business and he was like, alex, ask me about life. You're better at business than I am. I'm not going to answer that. But Howard had this saying. It's funny that we're having this conversation. I posted it on Facebook, I think this morning or yesterday. He would say, get out of judgment into curiosity.

Oh, there we go.

Whenever he heard me judging something, he would say, are you being curious? Is there any curiosity there? Have you asked any questions? And so to me, it's like a mantra. Whenever I feel myself slipping into judgment, I'm like, wait a second, this is probably a place I need to Ask questions. This is the place I need more information. This is a place I need a deeper level of understanding. And so I don't want to, even for a moment, say that I live judgment free. I don't. I fight it all the time. It's actually kind of an automatic pattern that comes in and I have to. I have to proactively say, hey, wait a second. This is one of those situations where I need more information.

Yeah. That's so cool. I love that quote. Yeah. It's just you need a little bit more curiosity right now, so.

Good.

I will remember that. That's good.

Yeah. I mean, I've also found sort of in myself, I can't speak for everybody, but in myself, what I've noticed that, like, I don't think about judgment towards others. Well, like you said, judgment sort of pops into my brain, but I've gotten pretty good at noticing when it pops into my brain and then flipping it and going, okay, there's probably more to the story here, so let's. This, let's back off a little bit. But like, that sort of act of. Of making these attempts to stop judging has made me feel like I'm not being judged by others. I feel like there's this sort of reflection thing that happens. Right. Where like, if I'm judging everybody else, my brain also assumes everybody else is judging me. Where if my brain kind of stops judging other people, it also starts to assume other people aren't judging me. Whether they're judging me or not, I just don't care anymore. I just assume they're not now. And it allows you to be more transparent, more vulnerable, more open, and just share. And that's just some of the realizations I've had. And I don't think this is a topic we've even covered on this show.

I don't think so. Yeah, that's what. It's perfect.

We'll go to the depths of a different topic.

I think it's kind of like the most suspicious person in the room is the thief. Right. It's always like that. And when you judge constantly, you train your brain that the world is about judging judgment. So you train your brain that you are being judged, and then when you can, like, reduce that, you stop feeling the judgment. Now, I'm saying that as somebody who has experienced, you know, bullying and trauma and body dysmorphic disorder and eating disorders and addiction and all kinds of stuff in my life, so there's been times where I've suffered from, from horrible self judgment, self loathing, not Just self judgment, but self loathing, like, literally, like sitting there thinking, should I even be allowed to be alive? And that is like, gosh, as I even said, I'm getting like goosebumps and stuff. Because I remember feeling like that, that even when I was quote, unquote, successful, when I had money in a business and, you know, people were referring to me as like somebody who was successful, I still had all of this judgment and all of this pain. And it really wasn't until I was in my 30s and started doing really deep personal work and a lot of. Of EMDR and therapy that I started realizing this pattern that I was creating in the world of judging others. My lens was almost exclusively judgment. And so the reflection was almost exclusively judgment. When I finally started to shift that. Here's what's interesting. It wasn't that my feelings about other people changed as much as my feelings about myself did.

What you're saying hits home, I don't think, you know, but like, my father passed away last year from suicide and was completely, like, totally. Yeah. And I've mentioned it a lot on the show here, so it's not new to most of the people listening. But the judgment thing, I know he was full of a lot of judgment. And you said earlier you reflect what you grow up around. Obviously we're all sponges as kids and all that stuff. So I think that's what happened to me as well. It almost became a thicker default mode. And after he passed, I started realizing that, but it kind of. I realized the fault in that. But it also brought up even more judgment in a way of others. And I was like, whoa, this is weird. I was more aware of. But I felt like I kind of almost defaulted even further into it. Even though before I was working on it and all that, but now it's much better. But it's very interesting, like these, like, ebbs and flows. And that was a big. I mean, I just remember that being a spike right there. I was like, whoa. I just realized, like, that's. It's huge. And it can totally spiral a mental state into not a good spot, obviously.

And Joe, that would make sense. I've worked with a lot of entrepreneurs and I want to. I'm not a therapist or anything like that, but. But, man, almost every. Every client I've ever had who I've helped scale a significant business has gone to therapy. And I've been in therapy since I was 26. And not. Not constantly, but on and off and more on than off, you know, in all honesty, especially If I'm growing. If I'm growing a fast, like, really fast growth scaling business. One of my secret weapons is going to therapy. But it would make sense what happened to you. You know, if you think about it, I had my mom pass away last year.

Right, right.

And so I empathize. And I'm really sorry for your loss. Same. My mom died of a stroke, which I can't imagine how much different it would be had she taken her own life. So I, I, you know, feel for you, man.

Thank you. Thank you.

And, but here's. Here's what I hear. This is just my assumption. You know, you probably lived with a tremendous amount of judgment as a child because your father, you know, if somebody who is an adult was able to take their own life, they felt a tremendous amount of judgment and probably experienced a life full of trauma when they were younger. And so your dad passed away. That triggers all those childhood feelings right back to when you were little. And then it comes all rushing back. And that spike in judgment, that spike in feelings absolutely makes sense. It's like an equation.

Yeah. No, you nailed it, man. And now. Yeah. In realizing that and talking through it with folks like you, therapy is still on the list. That would be a great idea to do. Go do. We've talked about it a lot.

We even talked about doing couples therapy together. We have some friends that have done couples therapy as business partners.

Matt. It's one of the things that I recommend most often to partners who are having a hard time. It happens all the time. I'll get on the phone, call with partners who are in our program, and they'll say, what coach can we go to? What event can we go to? What can we do? And I'm like, listen, you can pay this coach $20,000 a month. You can go to this event over here, that's $15,000. Or you can pay about $130 an hour for couples therapy. Go once or twice a week. And you guys are going to crush this.

That's right.

And it works almost every time. And you know, Joe, if you're considering therapy, I would highly recommend. And for anybody listening, if you're an entrepreneur, you need a release valve. And working out is a good release valve. Walking is a good release valve. Breath work is good. But you also need someone to help you with the mental, like, hijinks that the entrepreneur brain plays on us. You know, like it. We get our wires crossed significantly. We get impressions that shouldn't be there. We get into places that we just can't Let go of on our own, or we have a really hard time of letting go on our own. And EMDR is amazing because it's a therapy that does not require you to talk about where you've been. You know, I went to cognitive behavioral therapy when I was younger. I went to the talk therapy where you spill your guts and then the person sits across from me and goes, how does that make you feel? And then I'm like, oh. And then I would talk some more, and they would go, and how does that make you feel? And by the third time they said, how does that make you feel? My answer was like, okay. It makes me feel like I want to get up, cross the room, and kick your ass. Because if you just ask me how I'm feeling again, we're going to have problems. I need help. And so. So I couldn't do it. And a lot of my clients that went to that type of therapy also struggled to find the value or not get more frustrated on the way out than they were going in. EMDR is completely different. It addresses the subconscious mind. It's a therapy that goes left brain, right brain, either through the movement of a hand or through paddles. If you look it up, it is by far the most effective therapy I've found for entrepreneurs other than maybe plant medicine or psychedelics. But. But got that covered, too.

It's all good.

That's a totally different conversation.

I'm like, we've got those styles of therapy as well.

What's a good resource for emdr? Like, is there a specific place we should look at or.

Yeah, there's two things. You should go to the EMDR website. It's emdria.org so it's the EMDR internationalassociation.org but then also go to my website, charfen.com and go to our podcast page and search on EMDR. I think I've done six podcasts on this is Cool. And the podcasts basically mirror the module that we have in our platform. Because in our platform, once you sign in, there's all this stuff on setting up your business and structure and planning and process and routine and therapy.

I love it. It's right there in the foundation.

Right there.

Alex, this conversation has been awesome. I bet this is not where you thought you'd be going when you came on this podcast.

Love it.

This is. That was goal achieved.

But we have, you know, we got to get you off here for another call. So in the last couple minutes here, why don't you tell us, like, what you're working on right now and how people can go deeper with you if they want to work with you in some way.

Yeah, you got it, Matt. So we've got a really exciting promotion coming up. Over the course of the last three years, here's what our company has done. We've built three memberships for entrepreneurs to help them grow their businesses and to really do it in a way that's predictable. And do it in a way where they move into the passenger seat. And here's what I mean by that. That means that once you're at like over a million dollars and scaling your business, you no longer are running every meeting, making every decision, setting up the calendar, doing all the things you're really acting as the visionary that you should be. And so that's what we deliver. But in the first week of October, October 6th, 7th and 8th, I'm actually doing a free training for anyone who wants to show up. We're calling it Momentum Masterclass. So if you go to momentummasterclass.com you can check it out. And the first day, I'm going to be teaching on the entrepreneurial personality type and the billionaire kind of code, which will give you an idea of exactly where you are in business and where you should be focused. The next day, we're going to go over your long term, like, where you're going as a human being and in your business so that you have the clarity, confidence and commitment to put the accelerator pedal to the floor. And then the third day, we're going to assemble a plan to get you there. And so if you come spend three days with me, by the end of those three days, here's what we're looking to solve. If you've been procrastinating or not making the right moves or knowing that you should do something and you're not doing it, I want you to know something. As an entrepreneur, it's probably a conscientious decision. I know a lot of us beat ourselves up over that. Here's my experience of working with a lot of entrepreneurs over a lot of years is that when we're holding back, it's often because we know that if we move forward, we're going to bring something hurt, somebody hurt, our reputation. And so oftentimes it looks like procrastination. It looks like we're not doing the right things, but reality is we are holding ourselves back from doing the wrong thing. And so at the end of three days, whether you're in the position where you've been knocked sideways and you don't know the next thing to do or this condition in the world has made it so you're overwhelmed. Give me three days, and we will make it so that at the end of those three days, you have the clarity, the confidence, the commitment to get into momentum and stay there. And I'd love to have anybody who's listening check us out. And if the two of you want to come, I'd love to have you there.

Yeah, man, that sounds epic. So, momentummasterclass.com we'll link all that stuff and this podcast in the show notes. Alex. I mean, this has been absolutely. Yeah, it's not where I expected to go, but I know. So, yeah, with emdr, I mean, Matt and I are both rushing there.

Check it out.

We'll let you know how it goes, too, brother. Thank you.

Yeah, please do. Please do. And I just want to put this out there. Like, this has been one of the more fun podcasts I think I've done in a long time. So if we ever want to do a round two, I am 100% open to it.

Yes, we definitely will. Thank you. That means a lot. All right, have a great one.

Thank you, guys.

Hey, hey, hey. Thank you for listening to that episode. This is Joe Fear. I'm sure you probably already knew that. That. And Matt is not here right now, but I'm pretty sure he enjoyed the episode just as much as you and I did, because, you know, he went into the production of kind of making that thing right along with me. So thank you very much, and I want to give a quick shout out to our buddies over at Easy Webinar. These guys have been supporting us for a while, a long time, and Casey Zieman is just a super good guy all around. He's actually been on the show before. He's the founder of Easy Webinars. So if you look up Casey Zieman on any podcast platform you're listening to, go check him out. Go check out his backstory, what he's all about. You can learn a lot about webinars as well. And right now, Easy Webinar, these guys are actually hooking you up with a great trial. It's a completely free trial to test out their software, Soup to nuts. Check it all out and see if it's a good fit for you. If you go to easywebinar.com hustle, that's H, U S T L E. If you didn't know how to spell hustle, there you go. So if you go to EasyWebinar.com hustle, you can go grab a free trial. And EZ webinar literally lives up to its name. It's super simple. I mean, super easy. And it does all the stuff that you're looking for in any kind of thing with webinars. I mean, they literally cover every single type of webinar you possibly can do. So from live to automated to scheduled at specific times, and all these crazy features in between, can't even list them all out. I'll be here way too long. They give you a ton of advanced analytics. What's working, what's not. During your webinar, based off all these actions, you'll see who attended, how long they stayed, if they clicked the offer or if they didn't. Basically, you're gonna make more money and you're gonna work less with this thing and you're gonna create better relationships with the folks that are listening because it's a good experience. You want to give that good experience experience along with some great content, of course, and a killer offer if that's what you got for them. So go try it out yourself. Go check out easywebinar.com hustle. That's easywebinar.com hustole. Alrighty. Alrighty. So that is the end of this episode. Thank you so much for listening to this episode, enjoying it. Hopefully you did. I'm pretty sure you did, if you lasted this long. And go check out easy Webinar when you get the chance. And we will talk to you next time. Bye. Bye.

Thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice, a simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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