Amber Spears — How To Get Super Affiliates On Board To Sell Your Products

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. What's up, everyone? Welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. Are you done adjusting your mic stand over there?

Nah, I'm working on it.

You're working on it?

I think I'm good now. Okay, cool. Hey, how you doing, everyone?

I'm doing good. How are you doing?

I said everyone because it's you, the dogs here, and the listener.

Yeah.

So, hey, everyone. Hey, everyone. Yeah, so.

Yeah. Oh, man. All right. Matt just hits, like, the record button without even telling me. Like, I was literally mid.

Oh, how do you think we get such awesome intros? I just press record and start talking. And then Joe's like, oh, shit. We're going.

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's fun that way. It is. It keeps me on my toes. All right, so today we're going to learn all about affiliate marketing management. Some cool sales stuff. Just crazy. Not crazy, but very tactical, systematic ways of doing affiliate marketing and raising all this attention for your product. Or if you. I guess if you want to do this as a service, you could probably learn a lot that way, too. And, yeah, we're talking to Amber Spears today, and she is going to be a San Diegan very soon.

We'll actually get it out in the show, but she is a badass in the affiliate marketing world to get affiliates on board. She's been involved with some of the big, biggest launches, that huge, massive online Internet launches for some of the biggest names in the industry. A lot of the docu series, the Truth About Cancer. She's just sort of world renowned at getting these docu series launched and getting a lot, a lot, a lot of people behind them and promoting them. So really, really excited to talk to her. A couple of my favorite topics from this episode. She had this really killer strategy for actually getting affiliates to agree to be on the show. And it was something I literally have never heard before. I've heard of the concept, but never used in the way to get affiliates. So I'm going to open that loop there.

Yeah, we're not going to go any deeper on that one. I know what you're talking about.

But, yeah, she had this strategy to get affiliates excited to promote your product launch and just blew me away.

Yeah, yeah. And her approach, and this is. It should be so obvious, but she's amazing at structuring deals and being extremely clear with these deals and expectations up front with her partners. Affiliate partners. And there's a. You'll see she actually outlines very specific details of what she includes in these deals and that it's like an 8020 approach. It's like if you can solve this, your launch not going to guarantee sales, but you're going to guarantee happy affiliates and really the longevity of any promotions you do together. Yeah. And it all starts with that really, you know, that structure and agreement.

Yeah.

And sales. She's all about sales. She was like harping on that. She was saying how you know a lot of.

It.

Okay, you gotta open loops. This intro, I'm too.

I just want to give.

This intro is all about opening loops so that people go, I need to know what they're talking about.

I get excited, Matt. Fun conversations and yeah, you're gonna, you're. You're going to be basically become a badass at structuring sales and gathering affiliates and selling a crap ton.

Yep.

So it's fun. And she makes it fun too.

So. Yes, she does.

Yes. So where do we go from here, Mr. Matt?

Where do we go? I think we go talk to her right after we tell people about how to get better traffic to their website.

You get better traffic with. Well, this actually is a good timing because I'm good at.

You know, bringing stuff together like these.

I don't know what you were squeezing between your hands as you were doing that thing, but you're like bringing these things. You can't see it, but it looks like he's kind of. Nevermind, I won't go there.

No, no, no. I'm holding a cup is what I'm doing.

Okay.

So no, I'm actually holding a pen. I'm just trying to confuse everybody right now. So the idea here is with affiliate traffic you're going to get a crap ton of traffic. It's pretty much warm qualified traffic. It's endorsed. Well, if you have some simple traffic strategies built out like retargeting and all these buckets set in place to capture that audience so they don't just bounce and go away forever, then you're better basically going to sell a lot more. You'll be seen everywhere and all that fun stuff.

Yep.

So we line all that out.

Where Matthew at our traffic book, our free traffic book. Evergreenprofits.com trafficbook Stop squeezing Matt.

Evergreenprofits.com trafficBook that's weird.

I'm just squeezing a pen cap closed.

That's all I was.

Evergreenprofits.com trafficbook he makes things so weird. Should we just go jump into the interview.

Let's do that.

Okay, let's go talk to her.

Hey Amber, welcome to the show.

Oh, thank you so much. It's really awesome to be here.

Yeah. So we got connected just the other what last I guess TNC was a couple weeks ago, a few weeks ago now. And yeah, it was like a no brainer once we saw what you do and you said you spoke at tnc. So it's like, okay, well got the same kind of crowd and a lot of the TNC speakers have been on the show in the past. We're like, okay, cool, you got some good stuff.

I'm sure that's pretty much our only strategy now is we just figure out who's speaking at TNC and bring them on the show.

Curating.

Yeah, they keep it easy. Angela Hartman, shout out to you if you're listening for making the connection. Super cool. So thank you for one. And yeah, you're coming to San Diego soon. We're chatting about prior to recording that you're going to be a San Diegan pretty soon. You've always wanted to be. So I can't wait greet you with a drink. Oh, I know Del Mar and just little beach areas. So cool. Let's dig into it though. Let's just cut right into it and get to know you. Your company kind of what got you to this point here.

Sure. So I own East 5th Avenue, which is an affiliate marketing agency and affiliate training academy. So we have two branches of our business. And then I also co founded the Mimosa Mastermind. Very silly name for a really fun event company. We get a lot of work done. We take about 150 entrepreneurs to Cabo every year. So I love what I do. I really enjoy it and I love the clients that we get an opportunity to work with. And I think I get almost as excited about everything that they're doing as they are.

That's a good sign.

So how did you get into this business? What were you doing before this and what attracted you to this sort of affiliate marketing world?

Oh my God. That's a good question. So I am the first person in my family to go to college and graduate from college. And I was fully funded and got the Doran Scholarship and then I ended up getting the Ronald E. McNair Scholarship. He's the first black astronaut. And that scholarship fully funded me through my PhD or a law degree or whatever I wanted to do. So once I graduated I was like, I'm going to take, take a year off, study for the LSAT and Then while I'm doing that, I'm going to just apply to different jobs. And I took a job with an SEO company that claimed to hack Google's algorithm. This was 12 years ago, and they certainly did. They had, like, 300 link builders in India, and we could get on the first page of Google for, like, any keyword term in three days.

Wow.

Like, that was back in the fun day, right?

Yeah. I started selling SEO door to door. I was their first employee and ended up opening three offices in five states. And during that time. Or, sorry, three offices in two states. And during that time, I had a lot of lawyers as clients, and I wanted to be a lawyer. So I was like, I'll do a year. And I asked over 50 of my clients that were lawyers if they wanted to be a lawyer, if they could change it. And every single one of them said, being a lawyer sucks.

Be a lawyer. Great question, by the way.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I was like, well, definitely not doing this now. And I'm pretty good at selling things. So I did that for five or six years. And then I left to work for Craig Valentine. At the time, he had just purchased early to Rise here in Denver. And that was kind of the beginning of me kind of being in the direct response marketing world. And very soon, I was starving. Like, I. I had these big delusions of grandeur that I was gonna come out and be this, like, amazing copywriter. And I spent the first six months just, like, handwriting copy and, like, sales pages. And I was making, like 28,000 a year, going from making six figures, and I could, like, barely afford to put gas in my car. So I came to Craig and I was like, craig, yo. Like, I really need to. To make more money. And he was like, there's this thing called affiliate marketing, and if you want to take it over, you can, and we'll pay you 10% of anything you brought in. So I was like, yes, definitely gonna do that. And ended up really succeeding and thriving in that because it's a selling position. And from there, I ended up leaving Craig. And I've worked with a ton of different people, like Activation Products and Venus Factor, and ended up getting my name kind of well known from working with the Truth About Cancer. I helped with their 9.8 and $8.8 million launch, and then from there just kind of hit all at once. The docu series world just kind of brought me in, and I've done a lot of the bigger ones, like Broken Brain and the Truth About Cancer and Chris work and all these Other ones. And so out of that, we created an actual agency. My boss, who became my best friend at the first SEO company, is now my business partner now who I'm going to be living with in Delray in Del Mar. So I'm really excited about that move and also, yeah, excited about what we're doing. You know, it's. It's exciting. And I kept doing affiliate marketing because I really loved it. And now I get to not only do it for people in the agency, but I also get to train clients on how to improve that, their methods and what they're doing on the academy side.

That's so cool. Yeah, There's a lot to unpack there. Do you know Travis and Joy Houston by chance?

I do. I love them. They're awesome.

I thought you would because they're good buddies of ours. Both have been on the show. Yeah. So just thought that connection. I was like, I'm pretty sure you would know them.

Yeah. We just had lunch with Travis yesterday, actually.

Good peeps.

We'll all meet up.

Yeah, really good peeps. And he just came to my mimosa mastermind at TNC too.

Oh, nice. Okay, cool. Yeah, so that's cool. Yeah, I mean, they're just brilliant and that's the whole thing. It's like, I know. They just hang out with brilliant people.

One thing we've learned about this podcast is that our world gets smaller and smaller with each episode. Always such a small world.

Yeah, totally. I wanted to hit on that whole selling thing because you said that prior to recording, you said that here and you heard the 10% opportunity and you're like, well, I can sell. Go deeper on that and how that's so important.

Yeah. So I think affiliate management and affiliate marketing has a really bad rap for whatever reasons. And I think part of that is because people don't structure their deals and their agreements properly. I think where they're setting out expectations, where they're putting things in writing. I think a lot of times when you have like an affiliate manager, what I see most often is that they are just kind of, oh, they're good with people. Right. So we're just gonna like drop them in here and make them responsible for this revenue stream. And a lot of times being good with people just doesn't mean that you are a professional salesperson and you don't know professional follow up and you don't know how to pivot through objections. You're not quick thinking on your feet. And so I think that for me and the reason why my team we eat everybody else for lunch. It's because we are professional salespeople with systems and processes around it, and we get continuous coaching and training. Because to be a really good salesperson, you still need, you know, coaching. And I think that, you know, you look at like LeBron James. He has a coach even though he doesn't listen. And a lot of other people, Right. The best in the world have coaches. I speak a lot and I have a speaking coach. I just, I think that to really succeed and to thrive as an affiliate manager in your position, you really need to be a salesperson, not just good with people. And the other thing is that a lot of the affiliate managers that I see spend so much of their time doing admin work. So they're spending 50 to 75% of their time pulling reports, sending out links, just doing all this admin stuff. That's not money generating activities. And that's one of the reasons, and one of the biggest reasons that I see people having very inconsistent revenue in their affiliate programs is because their people are not trained salespeople. They might be good with people or they're spending the vast majority of their time doing admins, so they're not getting the results that the owner's looking for.

Yeah, no, I can relate to that. I know, Matt, you've been in that role before. Just through the evolutions of us and business for the last 12 years, we've definitely experienced that in different ways. I feel like I'm really good with people, but when it comes to all the monotonous work, the admin and the tedious follow ups, I'm just like, I just don't want to do this shit. Shit, it's not me, you know? Yeah, I could see why. Something you guys bring to the table with this great system, amazing team that you would crush and eat everybody for lunch.

So just to clarify it in my mind, I'm curious about how your business works now. Are you an affiliate for products and you're out there actually promoting things, or are you sort of the broker, like the affiliate manager in between? Can you just kind of clarify what the business looks like? Just because I'm not 100% sure.

Of course. Yeah, no, totally. I know, it's definitely confusing. So both. So we have an agency where we take between six and 10 clients a year and we do it for them. So we act as their sales team. So that basically means going out and like booking their deals, getting them on podcasts, we have to hit monthly revenue goals, all that stuff. We do it for them underneath that umbrella. We also have our own products. So we decided last year, we're like, hey, we've been making people millions of dollars a year. Why don't we try doing it for ourselves? And I have a whole new level of respect for offer owners now because I've been through. It's been very painful. But we were very fortunate. We partnered with somebody that I used to work for in late 2017, and we did some. We were like, let's try keto cookbooks. This is trending. Let's try it. So From December of 2017 until December 2018, we sold over 500,000 copies of that keto cookbook. So we did just under $10 million selling those. We have our own offers. Yes. We're also rolling out with some gut health offers right now that we're going to own exclusively. So we have our own. We also do it for clients. And then we have an affiliate training academy called the Affiliate Accelerator. And that is where we take about 100 students a year, 100 companies a year, and we put them through our system. So we teach them basic selling techniques, like we role play with them, we help them overcome objections. We are looking at the deals that they're making, we're auditing them, and then we're also giving them our outreach scripts, our templates, all that they get. Group coaching, one on one coaching. And we really try to figure out what do they need to do every single day to meet or exceed their owner's objections and what is underperforming and how do we fix that.

That is so cool. So for one, it seems like a perfect natural evolution, because I know we've been through this and a lot of folks we talked to in the podcast is, yeah, you do it for other people and then you see how good you are, how dialed in your systems are, then you're like, shit, I can make a lot more money if I just did for myself and then replicate that.

It's a huge difference, right? Like we take between 5 and 10% of what we're pushing for the clients, plus a monthly retainer. But then with our stuff, it's like we're taking 50% because we're giving 58 affiliates on average, significantly more money. But still, I think that having both having the agency and academy on one side and then having our own offers gives us a lot of stability and the ability to kind of grow the team. And it also enables us to learn a lot about what the clients are doing and like best practices and what's currently working that we can put into our own offers.

100%. I remember we had Billy Jean on the show and he said the exact same thing. He's like, yeah, we make a lot of money, but I'm always going to have an agency element because it constantly forces me to learn and then experiment, almost using other people's money to experiment, obviously getting them results. I mean, we did this kind of not thinking about ourself as a content marketing agency. And then we realized, hey, we can make a lot more money with affiliate stuff and let's just create more content ourself.

Well, what I love about what you were saying too is it sounds like you've kind of almost created this a little bit of like a closed system where you're out there and you're helping clients get more affiliates on board, but you're also training new affiliates, which helps feed both sides of the business. So that you've got this like, really cool, like, closed loop element.

Yeah, I didn't think about that before and it's true. And the other thing that's really beneficial from it is people know who's gone through my program.

And we get a lot more business done. They feel the difference. Even if they had worked with them before, once they've gone through my program, because, for example, we don't. A part of it is called structured deal or no deal. To me, this idea of these verbal agreements and these kind of handshake deals. Deals is just not the proper way to do business. It's business with a small B, not a capital B. I always compare it to Apple. It's like Apple's not going to make an agreement with the vendor and they're just going to do it over a handshake. There's going to be a lot of contracts, and that's a big part of what we do is like if you want to have a successful launch, you need to have. For example, for us, we don't do a launch unless we have 350,000 clicks booked. Minimum. Minimum.

So that is the deal. And how do we get there? Well, we have to go out. We have to talk to the person that we're going to be working with. Right. It's like, here's when I'm going to mail for you, here's when you're going to mail for me, here's how many times you're going to mail. Here are the things you're going to mail to. Here's what we expect you to make. Because we test everything. Even when we're doing scaled Launches. We've done a beta test before. Here's what happens if it fails, right? And it's all in writing, and it's all very clearly mapped out, and then it's in docusign. So when people start working with us, they're like, holy smokes, man. Like, I. I've never had this sort of, like, agreement, like, before with anybody. Normally, these are just my friends and my peers, and it's like, yeah, but how many of us have had a really bad affiliate deal, right? All of us have so many.

Yeah, yeah.

If we had gotten this thing in writing, right, and really mapped everything out, and it's like, if we had that, then we would have something to refer to. Because people. You know, I think it's true. Like, the idea that, like, people's memories are short, but how they feel about you go long. And I want to prevent people feeling like, oh, they're just always asking for things or they don't do what they say they're gonna do, or, you know, all that stuff. I want to eliminate as much as possible by creating very structured deals and including things like, what happens if this goes wrong? What if you mail for me and you crush it, and then I turn around a mail for you and your offer just bombs for me and I owe you, like, 10,000 clicks. You know, like, do I keep mailing and do I break the trust of my subscribers because I clearly don't like it, or do I do something else? And what is the something else? What is going to make you whole? And really having those agreements up front, our deals close faster. They close a lot more than everybody else's deals. And that's part of it is like having that actual conversation and not being afraid to get on the phone and do it. That's another thing I think. Everybody spends so much time on email and on Skype, it's like, dude, get off of that. Have a conversation on the phone and then follow up with something in writing. That's how we're really going to accelerate our results.

That is very true. Yeah. No, you're right. It's like instant rapport, too. If you have this agreement, it's very clear the expectations. There's exit clauses or alternative ways to make the agreement an amazing experience for both parties. I could see just that one element alone. The first touch, it's like, holy shit, these guys are really good. And. Yeah. And then it's a win from there. It's setting up the expectations.

Yeah. And then we have a little cabal of, like, all these Affiliate managers that we've trained that we all speak the same language.

Yeah, I like that. So then, yeah, it's very replicatable, you know, duplicatable, that is. What would you recommend? So someone with their own product out there and they're looking to add affiliate, you know, affiliates to help them with their promotions. What are some criteria? I know you have your own criteria for the company, but just the folks listening with a product or service of their own. What do you think are the necessary foundational elements they should have before bringing in affiliates?

That's a good question.

Or an affiliate manager even?

Yeah, that's a good question. So I think if they have an offer right now and they've been running it on cold media and they haven't quite done an affiliate program before, you know, one of the main things is the person with the highest converting offer makes the deal terms. And you should be spending the vast majority of your time making sure that your offer converts. Because I always say, I'm not a salmon, I don't like swimming upstream. And what I mean by that is I don't like booking offers that don't make anybody money. And nobody likes mailing for those offers. Right. So the first thing you need to do is, number one, cold traffic and warm traffic. And I think warm traffic is affiliate traffic. They don't convert the same. So just because your offer converted really well on Facebook or Google does not mean it's going to convert as well on warm email traffic. So don't make that assumption. It is a good assumption, but it doesn't always translate. So making sure that you have a high converting offer is super, super, super important. Obviously you have all the basics right. You have the ability to make sure that you can track it. You have the banners, you have the email swipe copy, you have everything. So you need that to set that up very foundationally. But then the other thing is like making sure that you have so much faith in your offer that you're willing to prepay or guarantee something for people to start testing it. That's another thing that I see people lacking is they're just like, oh, well, you're my bro, you're my friend. Why don't you test my offer? And it's like, dude, this is how I feed my family. This offer has to convert. So if you want me to do it, sure, I can do a test of a couple hundred clicks, or I can do a test of thousands of clicks. If you can guarantee me 2,500 bucks or a dollar per click or Whatever. And be willing to back yourself and say, okay, yeah, I will back that. Right? I will pay that. And then once you have that test data, then you can say, okay, great. Now here's all the test data. Now I want to bring it out to the rest of the affiliate partners because I have proof that this offer converts and it converts well based on these affiliates who have tested it. And I think so many people don't do that. They just like rule it out and they expect everyone to mail for them just because they're friends with them. I think that's a big mistake. The other thing that I would say is if you are currently an owner who acts as the affiliate manager, another polarizing thing about me is that I really don't think you should be doing that. I think owners should be doing what only owners can do, right? Like whatever their specific skill set is in the business, that's what they should be doing. I'm not saying you give up your relationships because you're a peer, have peer to peer conversations, get on podcasts like this one, do live streams, you know, create like, create co branded products, like whatever you want to do, keep that relationship. But also you should be having an affiliate manager who's a sales professional in that role driving that every single day. That's the one thing that they do. And that's the reason why affiliate revenue a lot of times is all over the place and the owner is in that driver's seat because they have 10,000 other things to do.

Yeah, we're like nodding so aggressively that my neck's starting to hurt.

So there's a couple things I want to touch on there. So the first thing you said about the. Basically, when we write sales letters and we're out there pitching our products.

In, copywriting and stuff, we have what's called a risk reversal, right? You always try to take some of the risk out of it for the customer to actually buy your product. And it sounds like what you're doing is you're applying that same sort of risk reversal methodology to get an affiliate to say yes about promoting. So I love that. And it seems so obvious actually now that you're kind of saying it and I'm repeating it out loud. But as far as the affiliate manager thing, now, isn't there sort of an element of, if I am an owner and I have built a big network, I have a few more doors open to me than if I was to go find and hire an affiliate manager who maybe doesn't have the same relationships.

100% and this is something that I work with my owner clients with a lot. You know, it's like, you should only be coming in to a deal. You should be like the Air Force, right? Coming in when a deal is going south or they're not answering your affiliate manager because you have that connection. Right. And there are still some people that like, my team never speaks with. Like, I don't do the day to day with my team anymore. I do the strategy. I look at their numbers every single morning. Like, half of what I do is pushing my team and my clients through their mental blocks. Selling is hard. It's a lonely thing. So half of what I do is that. And I think that there are maybe five people that are like my best contacts, that they just don't talk to my team, they only talk to me. I set the deal up with them and then I flip them to my team and I'm like, hey, this is what Joel Polish agreed to do. Joe's my buddy. Joe's a value contact. So here's a deal that we discussed. You know, please finish it, please finalize it and get everything going. But the rest of everybody else, you know, my team talks to and I make it very clear. Like whenever someone reaches out to me or to my clients, I train them on this. When we do it for them, it's like, I get it. People want to talk owner to owner. I understand that. But you can talk owner to owner about other stuff, like flip them to us. It's like, hey, you know, I'm so glad that you reached out about having me promote your stuff. I'm going to loop in my team to make sure that they're getting this done. Because if it's on my plate, it's going to slow down and it's not going to get done with excellence. And I really care about this relationship, so I'm going to work with them on it to approve it or to get this done. But please, you know, work directly with my team because these are the people that that's what they do every single day for me.

Gotcha. So, so basically, as the owners, it's okay to, in a conversation with people in our network, sort of make the ask about promoting, but once they've sort of said yes, then you kind of flip it off to the affiliate manager to take it from that point.

Yeah. And here you're touching on something that's really important, which is you flip it to your affiliate manager to make the deal. Right. And it's. Here's where people get really messed up that I see, it's like, will you promote for me? Yes. Okay, great. I'm so happy. Like, you know, let's get the deal done. But to me, that's not a deal. To me, the deal is, when are we promoting, how many clicks are being exchanged? What's your expectation for success? How much money do you need to make for you to feel like this is a good mailing? What are other things that I need to be aware of? Right. If this deal goes south, what happens? Who's my contact person? Like, can we. And if it works well the first time, especially if it's evergreen, can we make a commitment to each other that we can get this going together every six weeks at least? So map out the entire year together. Right. That's another thing that I see so many of these affiliate managers struggling with is they're like, you know, it's April 1st and they need to book for April 1st. Well, why. Why didn't you start booking for April and January and book every single month up for your offers and get your whole content or your whole calendar mapped out?

Yeah, that's always been the experience. Or for the most part, I can't say always. But most launches last minute, most affiliate promotions last minute. And then you have this undue pressure and it's not needed. With a little simple planning, that's all it takes. And yeah, I think that's what takes people away from. Because we've been doing this a long time and you see so many different iterations. And yeah, you get almost like, I don't want to do affiliate stuff because it just seems like a stressor and I'm just going to do my own thing. So I think a lot of people are averse to affiliate marketing because of what you just described.

Yeah. And I think it's because their expectations, too. It's like how I'm sure people listening to this have experienced it. I don't know if you have, but how many times have you had your biggest affiliate in the space confirm that they were gonna do a launch or do a promotion for you? And you get so excited, Right. You're like, this is it. We're gonna make millions of dollars. I can't wait. And then they mail and it's like 10 clicks and you're like, what happened? You know, like.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. That means they don't follow through at all. You know, not good for the word. And you're like, okay, great.

We've had that as well, where people sort of sign up to promote and we get really, really excited about this person being on board, and we push them to go promote when they say they're going to promote. And then crickets.

Yeah, that's.

That's the most disappointing thing.

It is. And part of that is because you did not discuss up front what the expectation was gonna be. Because in some people's mind, it's like, promote you. I'm gonna put you at the PS at the bottom of my newsletter. If I would have known that, I would have known to temper my expectations, right? And I would have also known to push. Be like, really, bro? You're gonna put me on the ps? Like, look at these stats. Like, look how much money people have been making, like, in your avatar, right? Like, this is a perfect thing for your list. Like, if you don't know, you can't push, and you can't push to the obstacles and kind of get around things. You know, it's like getting that information is so important, so critical. And that's what I see a lot of my clients facing is they're like, man, you know, this is gonna be the best launch ever. I can't wait. All these people are mailing, and the first thing I do is I'm like, great. So they're all mailing. They all said yes? Yeah, they did. I'm so excited. Great. Well, how many clicks are they sending? Are they sending multiple times? Are they sending to all their lists? Are they sending to leads and buyers? Or are they segmenting it out? Are they sending to social as well? Are they jumping on a podcast with you? I don't know. Okay, then we. Then you don't have a launch, right? You have a theory that this thing is gonna go well. Like, these things need to be nailed down to the ground so that we can then project, you know, everything around it. How much tech do we need? How much customer service do we need? You know, how many, like, physical order, you know, physical products do we need to pre order, like, all of this stuff? And I think this is why the affiliate space has so much, like, you know, chaos, because you're not getting those expectations up front. Even something as simple as every single person who goes through my program and my team before you do a mailing with an affiliate partner, even if you've been working with them for a long time, you've never asked do this. And especially new people, you should be asking them, how much money do you want to be making from this mailing? Because I want to smash that for you. I want to make sure that we're Getting close. We're smashing it. We're taking care of you. Right. And so let's say they said $5,000. So I'm going to look at their mailing and let's say that they made 7,500 from that. The first thing that I'm going to say is like, dude, you crushed it. You said you want to make 5,000, you made 7,500. Can we get ascendant on opens? Right. Because this thing is crushing it. On the flip side, if they want to make $5,000 and they made 1,000, that's a very different conversation. Now I'm coming to them being like, ooh, damn, that did not do well. Can you give me some feedback on what happened? Are you testing it? Is that why it looked like that? Are you having some email deliverability? Did you have low opening, low click through rates? What happened? But not having that information up front, you're kind of shooting in the dark. And that's why I think a lot of times affiliates just go M.I.A. they're like, oh, I've tested your offer. I want to make 5,000, I made 1,000. I'm not even going to bother writing these people back. But if you know ahead of time, you can push hard or you can pivot.

Yeah.

And I guess in the same way we say we're getting this big affiliate on board, we're really excited about this because they're gonna push and they're gonna drive all this traffic. I guess you want that affiliate to have that same level excitement. And if both sides are very excited about the potential and both sides kind of have those expectations set, then you're definitely set up for success a little bit better.

Yes, yes. And it's in writing, which is the other expectations.

Yeah.

And you said, I think the failure part, or quote, unquote, failure because feel like. And you said the word it's feedback. The fact that you're asking for feedback is immensely better than just nothing. Or ignoring the fact that you didn't hit your goals because you have this affiliate that feels like, well, shit, I didn't get what I was feeling I was going to receive from this deal. And the fact that you're asking for feedback and you're giving them potential solutions, I'm sure that most of the affiliates, if they maybe didn't make enough money, they're still feeling like, okay, well, they got my back. They're thinking, they're trying to help me out here. They're coming up with potential solutions.

Yeah. And I think, you know, I Think that's part of being a salesperson, you know, is being a good salesperson is that customer service aspect and really knowing who your customer is. Our customers are our affiliate partners and we want to delight them and we want to be able to anticipate their needs. Which is one of the reasons why I hammer people so hard on like knowing what that number is in their affiliate's head so that you can, you can treat them with, you know, the respect that they deserve and be able to fluidly ask for more if it did well or, you know, really not kind of apologize, but also try to brainstorm on how to keep that relationship going. Because maybe that one offer bombed to their list, but you might have a lot more that will do well later and you don't want to like, you don't want to mess that up just by not knowing or on the flip side, only having a small bit of information. Like, one of the things that drives me crazy too is when people are like, oh my God, my hot new offer. It's converting at $10 earning per click. It's amazing. And you're like, okay, cool. But a lot of times when you look at it, that's just one part of the equation. Maybe they did get a $10 earning per click, but the open rate and the click through rate was abysmal. So the affiliate actually didn't make the money that they were hoping. And now you're going around harping that they have these huge EPCs because that's the only metric that you had and you didn't ask. Right. And your affiliate partner's like, yeah, it was a $10 APC, but I normally send 10,000 clicks and I sent 500. Like, you know, you have to get all, you have to get all the information on the table, right?

Yeah. And then it could have been the quality of traffic. And yeah, not specifying was it cold or was that just your own list?

Right.

So you teach people how to be better affiliates as well too, Right? That's part of the training course that you do.

Yes. Yeah. So the training course is designed for affiliate managers, marketing managers and owners. It's a six month program. Basically what they do is they start very foundationally. So we do, you know, we ask them to do an audit of everyone that they're working with, look for opportunities to increase the volume with their current affiliates. Because there's this obsession in the space with like, I need more new affiliates. Like, if I just have more super affiliates, I'm going to make more money. It's not true. You're not taking care of. Without a doubt. I mean, I consult with everybody from Agora is probably my largest client. $1.7 billion, your company, all the way down to kind of people who are just starting out. They're not crafting and structuring their deals solidly with the people that they have. They have so much money left on the table. So shore up those leaks and then go get new affiliates. So we do very foundational, kind of, where are you at? How can we improve? And then we go up to negotiation techniques, customer service, really trying to get them to understand that this is a selling role primarily. And getting them off the email and the Skype chat, like, drug. It's just a drug. It's so easy to ignore you on those. And I teach them, it's like, hey, this person's not responding to me. Okay, what'd you do with them? Oh, we emailed them. Okay, I want you to email them. I want you to Skype chat them. I want you to call them, I want you to text them. I want you to send them a LinkedIn message. I want you to find their Facebook. I want you to send them a message there. I want you to find out, like, their home phone number, if they still have that. Like what? Like someone on their team will respond to you. If they don't, then you're going to go find someone else on their team and you're going to get that done. That is your job. Your job is to get the. Get the traffic right. So really pushing people out of their comfort zones to do that. So that's definitely what I train them on. And the owners, a lot of owners go through my program because they don't have established systems and processes and KPIs and quotas. They have it all living in their head and they're frustrated with their results or they're frustrated with the results of their affiliate manager. And part of that is because, you know, their affiliate manager is not a mind reader. And you need to remind them every single day, like, hey, I need to be making, you know, I want you to be generating $100,000 a month. Well, what does that look like broken down day by day? How many phone calls, how many clicks do you need to book to get that? And just continuously looking over their numbers. Salespeople need constant training and reinforcement. They're not robots. Making sure that you have the ability to do that. It's really going to help you get the results that you're looking for in your affiliate program.

That is Powerful, because if you know your numbers, that solves probably 80% of the all of your issues. So then you know what to focus on. But I love what you said about just being persistent and also feeding the salespeople or the affiliate manager.

The angles or the different options they can do for follow ups. It might have sounded like to some listeners, like, oh my God, they're just berating them with messages. But no, at the end of the day, the intention is good. It's a win win. And obviously you're doing that for a reason because they agreed or they had interest at one time but fell off for some reason.

Well, and just knowing how.

Give up right there.

Just knowing how you and I operate, Joe. We definitely have preferred mediums that we communicate on and then mediums where we completely ignore. Like, if you were to find my Skype and my Facebook messenger and my email and my phone number, you probably wouldn't get a response from me on Skype or Facebook Messenger. And if you tried to call me unless you left a voicemail, you're probably not going to get an answer. But if you hit me an email, I pretty much clear out my inbox every single day. So everybody kind of has their preferred medium. So although it sounds like you're barraging them with like 10 different contact points, the likelihood is they're going to see it in two of them.

You know, you're exactly right. And I. That's one of the fundamental principles of what we teach. It's like you also have a responsibility to know your affiliate partners through and through and know what their preferred medium of communication is. And that's one of the first things that we ask them. We start working with them, is like, do you know how people respond best to you? Because for me, email is a black hole. I have probably 10,000 unread messages in there. The best way is always to text me, right? And anybody who knows me knows that. And that's, you know, that's it is. And I get this pushback a lot. Right. This is one of the reasons why I am a bit polarizing in the space because people hear and they're like, oh my God, you're going to hit them up on all these different mediums. Like, I don't want to do that. There's a way to do it elegantly. It doesn't have to be the same message. And you can even say things like, hey, I know, I'm like hitting you up a lot. Ha ha. Also, I'm doing that because you asked me to do this so you can tell me to like, you know, take a hike or do you want to make this money together? Because like you said, that's what you wanted. And I want to make sure that I'm taking care of you. It's part of my character and part of my integrity to make sure that I do what we committed to. Right. And you can craft that message in a very elegant way. But people, you know, the squeaky wheel gets oiled. That's the reason why my team and my clients, anybody that goes to the program, like, they get better results because they know, like, it's the people that keep pushing and keep pushing and you don't have to be a jerk about it. You can do it in a high end concierge selling way, but you have to get through.

It's super true. Because I'm just thinking of just any silence that I've ever experienced in work.

Going after a deal like you've said, or even just trying to collect back in the agency days on money. It's like, oh, no, the squeaky wheel always gets paid. And you don't have to be a jerk about it. Like, exactly what you said. That's how I would approach it. And I always got paid.

Well, we're marketers, so I'm not averse at all to trying to hit people in multiple places. That's literally our job. When this episode goes live, once this goes live, I'm gonna mail our list, I'm gonna do a mini chat broadcast to our Facebook broadcast list. I'm going to share it to our Facebook group, our Facebook fan page, our Twitter account, our LinkedIn account. You know, the list goes on and on and on. This episode is going to go to every marketing channel I could possibly think of. And we do that with every single episode.

I'll text Amber instead of email her so she knows it goes live.

There you go.

I will see that.

Okay, cool. But yeah, no, it's multi channel marketing and that applies to everything out there. Yeah, yeah, it does.

And it's foundational selling principles, you know, and I think that, that we have a responsibility to do better.

We do.

And that is the reason why I built this academy. Because I couldn't service all the people I wanted to work with. We just didn't have the bandwidth. We want to stay as a boutique agency. And I felt like, you know, there's just so many people out there that needed better training. And like I said, half of it is systems and knowing your numbers and having the personality for it and then the Other half is, you know, your mental breakthroughs, you know, being told no all the time or going, having people ghost on you and all this other stuff, it's hard. And also being responsible for numbers, you know, it's hard. And that is, you know, that is the reason why I designed this and why I think that anyone who goes to the program or works with us feels like we know them, feels like we care about them. And also they know when we reach out we're here to get this money and we're here to make this money together.

Yeah. Now how do you recommend people go and find new affiliates for their products? If I'm getting ready to launch a product, and let's say for example, I'm a JV manager and I need to go and find affiliates to promote my client's product, what are some of the kind of early things, easy recommendations that somebody can do to go and get affiliates on board?

Yeah, my favorite way is referrals. I think that's the best way to do things and the best way to accelerate that is running a second tier referral contest. That's one of my favorite things. So let me get really specific here. Before people start running off and doing it, the most important thing is to structure your the deal, which is basically for us, it's like, hey, we're gonna launch this thing in three months from now. That should be the minimum amount of time before you start recruiting. I like to do six months in advance to start recruiting. And it's like, hey, we have this launch coming up in three months. I would like you guys to introduce me to people that I don't know yet. I will give you a second tier commission on top of it. And you also eligible to win, let's say $5,000 for the first prize, $2,000 for the second prize, you know, thousand for the third prize, whatever. But here are, here's what I need for you to qualify for this. I need people who have an email list in health who are willing to mail third party offers and that can, you know, send me 10,000 clicks or more. And that's going to be the type of person that I'm interested in meeting. And you need to introduce them to me via email. Right. Or through text message or whatever. This is what I'm looking for. So to qualify on this, this is what they need. You can even take it a step further and say we'll give this money at the end of the launch because those people also have to mail for the launch. So just getting really tight around Your agreement and what you're looking for. So the reason why we started doing that is because the first time I ran a second tier contest, referral contest, was for the Thyroid Secret. And they had 82 affiliates. When I first started working with them, they've been doing it for like three years. They had a email list size of like 150,000. And so we decided to run a second tier referral contest. And we didn't have those kinds of restrictions and we ballooned it from 82 affiliates of 1400. So I spent all that time trying to figure out like who is who, who is a minnow, who's a whale, you know, all this other stuff. We had an amazing launch. We ended up adding 589,000 names to the list. Additionally, you know, we did a multi seven figure launch, took them number one in the New York Times from that list. They sold like 48,000 books from that docuseries list that we did. And so it was really good. But I was like mired in, like I didn't know who was who. And out of that 1400 new people, only about 40 of them were affiliates of any real size that could send real volume. So we were like drowning in it. And so after that, every single second tier referral contest that we do, we want to make sure that we have very specific requirements for what type of introductions that we want makes sense.

And I'm sure the quality goes much higher, the messaging, because that is what gets a little scarier if you don't have these roadblocks, these filter mechanisms when you sign up new affiliates. Who knows how they're promoting it or what they're saying. Because you lose touch a little bit with everyone.

Right? Yeah, but that is, I mean, if you want to dramatically accelerate the pool of people that you're working with, like a second tier referral contest is the way to go.

That's awesome. Yeah, I've never even heard of that actually. And second tier is essentially, essentially someone bringing in their network and then becoming an affiliate and then they're getting paid for that referral just so listeners kind of know what's going on there. That's cool.

Yeah, it's one of my favorite things to do and it's how we've scaled these launches in a really huge way.

Interesting. Yeah. We keep staring at your website and you have these three quadrants. The launch, promote, grow. And I think everyone can go over there to your website and essentially just check this out and you can see how much is actually involved with becoming an affiliate. Manager or just doing your own thing to try to get affiliates. It's a lot of work because we tried doing it ourselves for a while. I'm like, man, this is not something sustainable. As an owner, like, I think it's selling me. It's like, man, someone else should just handle this.

Like you said, you know, the owner, you have so many things going on and this just adds a whole nother layer of it's like a new business almost, you know, try to do it yourself.

It is. And I think, you know, I. The other part of affiliate revenue is I always talk about it as it should be the most stable part of your revenue because, you know, algorithms are fickle creatures. You know, 12 years ago I could get on the first page of Google for any keyword that you think of in three days. Right. And that has changed. You can't hack into it and do that anymore. Right. Same thing with Facebook and Google. Like something that you were making a ton of money on, a funnel that was crushing it. A VSL all of a sudden falls out of favor and so now you're stuck trying to figure out how to make that work again. Whereas affiliates, you know, you're not prepaying them to have eyeballs coming to your site or your page typically. Right. So if you can figure out a way to make that stable, that should be the most consistent part of your business. Now it's never going to scale like cold media is. And I would never say that. But I will say that when people figure this out, they're like, okay, great, so I know I can be making a couple million a year on autopilot basically if I take care of my affiliates and I structure my deals and I have a trained salesperson in that position which is going to pay for my overhead, my employees, my, you know, pretty much everything. And then everything else will build off of that.

Yeah. And I get a little excited because Matt and I are, you know, paid, paid ads guy and do a lot of retargeting, all that fun stuff. So it's like the input of all this new TR that is warm traffic, it's endorsed. And then if you can back that up with some simple kind of follow up mechanisms, of course, email and all that stuff. But then you have retargeting going which should also help your affiliates sell more. It's another win win.

That's what gets me all giddy.

It's just extra. I'm curious, when you do launches these days, what's the main launch model that you're using? Because I know for a long time there was the Jeff Walker product launch, Formula three, and then a launch. And then for a long time, everybody's launches were webinars. And it seems like lately the docu series stuff has been really good. And I know you're really involved with the docuseries stuff. Is that kind of the route that you take for most of the launches that you work with now?

Yeah, certainly for health. That is something that I'm pretty well known for. We done some of the bigger ones and we have a docu series, like, training course and, you know, we have all that. But I will say that, you know, like anything, I can sense that things are shifting, right? Like these big docu series are not happening with the frequency that they used to. And I think part of that is because the consumer is getting way more familiar with it. And you have a bunch of these filmmakers that are going out and just like shotgunning all these different types of docu series. And what we've seen from it is, you know, what matters a lot is the topic in terms of how it can scale. So, for example, everyone's afraid of cancer. So cancer by itself, and a cancer documentary is going to crush. And people are aware of it. They're aware of cancer, they're aware of diabetes, they're aware of Alzheimer's. Very different than when you're trying to create an awareness product like thyroid disease or autoimmune. You're teaching as you're kind of doing it. And so that's one big takeaway that we've had. It's like, if you really want something that's going to scale, it has to be something that consumers are familiar with. And then the other thing is, on average, when we run these things, we get around 300,000 leads. On average, we've gone way higher. We've gone past a million. But on average, between 300 and 350,000 leads that we do per launch. And what's happening is these emails are not being delivered anymore. And that's critical because the way that you're pushing people to watch is through email. They opt in, and then you're like, hey, episode one's going live. Well, if they're throttling us on infusionsoft and they're throttling us everywhere else, they're not going to get that email for more than 24 hours. And now if video one expired and they're pissed off.

It'S really important to focus on the quality, the customer experience, testing it and making sure that to really Educate. You can have your own spin on how to prevent cancer or treat cancer or beat cancer, but it's a topic that people are familiar with and that's going to enable you to scale it much bigger.

Do you have any ideas of where you think the market's headed with these launches for you?

Yeah, I mean, I think we probably have another year or two for these docu series to be as big as they are before we're going to start. The pendulum is going to start swinging back to, I think like vsl.

The whole long form landing page, like all that stuff. I don't think that this particular model is going to be this strong for very long.

Yeah. And I mean, you see it now sprinkling into all these other industries because the health space. Because I did a lot of stuff in there for a while. A couple of your clients, like Pedram, I think I forget his last name. It's been years, but I know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's just so many people doing that and they've done it very well and it has been going for a while. So, yeah, the market kind of starts picking up on stuff and then you have to shift.

Yeah, they do. You know, the first time a consumer saw like you get all these nine episodes for free, it's like, wow, you know, and then it's like we're taking it down and then it's like replay weekend, you know, and there's like final car close. Like they're getting used to this and they know this now. So we have to shake it up a little bit. And certainly docu series is where I got a lot of my, you know, support in the industry and I've made my name and I'm very grateful for them. I work with Pedram and Jeff Hayes and all these guys a lot and they're amazing filmmakers. But I do think that we're gonna have to start changing what we're doing to stay in front of the consumer and to still delight the consumer, you know, to still give them a ton of value.

Yeah. Now, so with. With your east fifth Avenue, that's the agency side, right?

Yeah. So East Fifth Avenue is like the. Almost like the umbrella that everything lives under. So East 5th Avenue is the main company and then we have the agency, which is. And then we have the Academy, which is Accelerate affiliate accelerator. And then my corporate clients work with me under Spears method. That's like, that's where they get a lot of my time. So like under the affiliate accelerator, you work primarily with my team. You'll only talk to me once a month on group calls. But I personally look at every single accountability report that's submitted and I give specific feedback because that's one of my favorite things to do. But the corporate clients, they get a lot more of my time and I can accelerate their results a lot. But it all lives under the East 5th Avenue umbrella.

Gotcha. So for the agency side of things.

What does a company look like that's ready for your agency? Like where does somebody have to be before they can reach out to you and say, hey, I want to retain you guys to do all this for me?

Yeah, it's a good question. So again, high converting offer. We're not salmons. So that's going to be the first thing that I'm going to look at is does this offer have legs? Can I scale it and can I scale it in different niches? Can I bring a health offer to beauty or to any other type of niche to pd? What kind of offer is this? Does it have the ability to really scale it? And then the other thing is, is it a product that we feel good about just pushing to the absolute limit, you know, because there's a lot of high converting offers that are trash products and that's not going to make me feel good at the end of the day. And then the last thing is, is this somebody that we want to be married to? Right. Because.

Our personalities were. There's 17 women on our team and one man and we're just like type A like going for it, you know, and it's not on purpose, it's just that's what we've attracted in and we continue to grow and you know, we also want to feel like the people that we're working with are people that we want to, you know, be in a contract with for six months to a year and then every time we're re signing. So high converting offer, the offer has to be something that is valuable to the world and we have to really enjoy them and their team and they have to have truly like a, like a team too. Like there's only been a few clients that we work with that are just like a one man show. Because if we're going to be taking these offers out in a huge way, like the email copy gets fatigued, the landing pages needs continue to be optimized, they need a project manager. That's another component of it that's really important.

Is there a specific sales volume that you like to see before you know, okay, this is a high converting offer.

Yeah, we will spend honestly two to three weeks diving into their numbers.

The newest person that I've ever taken on is somebody who tested their offer on 50,000 clicks. And it did really, really personally called every single person that they ran with and asked them, hey, I saw that you ran this offer. Did it do as good as he said it did? Did you like working with him? Did you have refunds? What was the feedback on your list before we brought him on? Most of the time they've probably done at least half a million dollars in sales on their offer, at least before we're going to take them on as a client.

That makes sense. Okay. So it's like nice season offer there.

Yeah.

Just to kind of. Because we're. Yeah, we've. Oh, man. There's a lot of stuff that we've covered up. This is good stuff. Yeah. What's. I'm kind of curious because you have a lot going on. I know you do a lot of speaking. You're currently almost going to be moving around pretty soon. What's your typical day to day look like? Maybe in a span of a week or so. Sophie's curious about that.

I've never had anyone ask me this question before. I'm on the phone a lot. I'm on, like, I probably do nine to 12 calls a day. I'm practicing when I'm preaching. Right. Like, I'm talking to some of our biggest affiliate partners. I'm talking to corporate clients, I'm talking to my team and making sure that things are moving. I'm looking at their numbers every single day. So I'm on the phone a lot talking to clients or affiliate partners. That's a big part of my day. And then once the day is over, I'm trying to get through as much email as I can get through. So my days are pretty long. But I'm usually speaking a minimum of one to two times a month on stage. And I'm also traveling to like Baltimore to train with my corporate clients. Or I'm, you know, traveling to do some other sort of training live and in person. So I'm on the road. The last three years, I've been on the road around 220 to 250 days on average. Which is a lot. Yeah. And I'm really trying to slow that down, which is why I'm excited to go to San Diego because that's going to take a big chunk out because I'm there so often with clients, I would imagine. Yeah, that's pretty much what my day looks like is Basically being glued to the phone.

Yeah. Hey, sounds like it's where you should be though, for your skillset and the company you're running.

Yeah. And it's fun. I enjoy it. I love talking to people. I genuinely really enjoy them. So it's fun for me.

That's awesome.

Cool. So we do have a couple little just wrap up questions that we ask everybody. Do you have any books that you recommend to people often or that you find yourself referring back to often as a good reference for your business or I guess it doesn't even have to be business if you have a great.

Personal development mindset, whatever it is.

Yeah. Just any sort of book that you reference a lot.

Yeah. Actually one of my favorite books is Never Split the Difference. I think it's one of the best books to read. If you're selling or you're doing any sort of negotiation, I think everyone should read it because I think you're either being sold to or you're selling in every conversation that you're having. Even as something as simple as negotiating rent. That book, I think is just amazing. I recommend that every single person reads it.

That's a good one.

Are you familiar with it?

That's Chris Voss's book, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've heard his interviews and I have not read it. And Roland was. We were in a mastermind yesterday, Roland Frazier, and he was like, that book is so amazing. And he uses it for his negotiations and selling. So I need to get it now. I know a lot of the concepts and they're freaking powerful.

Yeah, it's great. And I love Essentialism. That's another really good book that's helped me a lot. That's another one of my new favorites. Yeah. And I'm into all the other kind of self help, like A Return to Love and all the other stuff. I think I read a lot, but I certainly think anybody who is doing any sort of selling should definitely read. Never split the difference.

Yeah. What's your. Do you like to listen like Audible or Read?

So I like to listen to fiction. I have to read nonfiction and like business books because I don't retain the listening as much for me.

So I'm starting to find. I always experiment and I think that's what I always end up doing. I just like Audible. That sounds great. I'm like, damn it. Talking about a lot of numbers and a lot of lists and I'm like, I just need to read this thing.

Well, yeah, you gotta figure when you're using Audible, you're like, I Mean, for me, I'm out walking. I listen to podcasts when I walk the dog, but, you know, most people are out driving or something, and if you want to take notes or highlight, you just can't. So. I can definitely see that for sure. But. Very cool.

Awesome. Well, where should we direct folks now that they listen to you, either they love you or they hate you. But the lovers, where do you want the lovers to go to?

Yeah, I mean, they're more than welcome to go to our East 5th Avenue.com site. And then we're going to have a new page up for affiliate accelerator. But for now, it's SpearsMethod.com that they can check out. And of course, if they want to come hang out with us in Cabo, mimosamastermind.com is like, that's kind of like my fun kind of hobby business, but I get a lot out of it. I put my heart and soul into making a community. And our events are very different. People like Perry Belcher and Chris Guerrero and all these people, they come to our events. And what's different about ours is these people get off stage and they work with you one on one. So we do a full intake and figure out what your needs are, and then we pair you with the experts that you need to meet, and they actually spend between 30 minutes to an hour looking at your numbers, giving you very specific feedback. And then we hand select where you're sitting every single day, and we pair you with the people that you need to meet. We put the ROI a lot on our own shoulders. Instead of being like, pay thousands of dollars to come to my event and then you get the roi, you figure it out. I mean, I even know down to, like, what, like what hotel room they're staying at, and I put them on the same floor as people that they need to run into on the elevator. So if they're. If people are interested in health and wellness or PD or E. Com. Mimosa Mastermind is like one of the better events. Not just because I put it on, but just from the feedback that we get. We have a 79% return rate for people that come because they really, really enjoy it. So that would probably be a really good place to check out, too.

The fact that you have your East 5th Avenue is so dialed in, it seems like the Mastermind would be just as dialed in. And a lot of fun, too.

Oh, yeah, it's a lot of fun. Goofy name. We definitely do a lot of work, but we have a ton of fun, too. And there's definitely a lot of mimosas being drank, for sure.

Heck, yeah. That's what it should be all about. We'll link all that stuff in the show notes, too.

When does that event happen?

October. So it's October 25th through the 29th this year in Cabo. I love to have you guys come out. You guys. You guys could come out and be podcast experts, because we get a lot of people asking, you know, how do I start my own podcast? Or, like, I have one, and I don't. I don't know quite know how to scale it, and, you know, I don't know how to monetize it. And that'd be really cool to have you guys come out.

That sounds epic.

That's the space we're operating in these days is the teaching podcasting to marketers, basically. Yeah.

It's an untapped realm still, for sure.

I'd love to keep that conversation going with you guys about having you guys come out as experts to Cabo. It would be awesome.

Right on. Thank you, Amber.

Yeah, of course.

We'll follow up and. Yeah, we'll let you go. Get back on the phone and. Just kidding. Take a break, damn it.

Have a good one.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate this. This was awesome.

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