Anik Singal - Purpose Driven Copywriting

When I teach copy, I'm very different about how I approach it. Okay. And I want everyone to understand words don't really matter anymore, and I think that's a part people don't understand. So I have to kind of start really high level to answer that question. And I'll work my way down, but I promise I'll make every word count. Piece of it count for you guys. So one of the things that I'm out there that's very controversial, that I'm out there saying a lot, and I feel like, you know, if Dan Kennedy could come right now, he'd slap me for saying it. But I really believe in it, and that is direct marketing's dead. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Wiki wiki wiki.

Yay. Yo, what's happening, man?

Oh, not much. Just got done chatting with a badass.

Yeah, I would say so.

He is a.

How is he a badass?

Huh?

Tell me, dude.

His copyright, like, his explanation of copywriting is probably one of the best explanations I've heard on, like, simplifying how copy should be written.

I was gonna say that. Yeah. Like, my feeling was just. It's. He made it sound very easy. Yeah. For anyone non copywriter. Nothing. I mean, he even said he was like a D or D minus, you know, writer student and, you know, hated writing, but somehow has created a massively successful business on the back of writing.

Yeah.

So Onyx Sengal is our guest today. Very honored to have him on here. And he's been up to amazing things. And I will say he was the most. He was the best dressed and best seen. We did this one on video, by the way.

We assume he's the best dressed. Some of our guests we can't see.

That's a good point. I mean, Onyx could have been wearing, like, you know, I don't know, freaking gym shorts or something under his desk, but who knows? Not gonna ask. So big props to him overall because, like, this thing is a masterclass in copy. And I would say in general, this is kind of like a common theme lately is a journey is a customer journey and really making sure you're not rushing the journey. You're really meeting people where they're at with messaging and how you're communicating with people and not rushing things, not focusing on.

Words. A lot of people when it comes to copy and things like that, they think we even talk about swipe Files. Swipe out. There's a cool. Words are helpful, but it really is.

Swipe files to get ideas. That's what swipe files are. They're not copy and paste things that.

You should be using, right? Yeah. There's more to it than that. And that's what Onyx really talking about today. Yeah. Yeah.

And so he's actually putting together a 21 day challenge where you start on day one and by the day 21, you should be better at copywriting than 80% of the world, basically. So, like he is teaching a master class in copy and that is available@copy in21.com.

Yeah. So that's, that's where you can go get the challenge. And we also link on the show notes page, if you're driving or something, we'll link it up there as well. Yeah, Conversion Academy, I think is the name of the thing. 21 day challenge. Basically it says, like, when you join this thing, you're going to be better. And if you actually complete it and all that, you're going to be better. If you do the work, of course, you'll be better than 80% of the rest of the folks out there at copywriting. And if you're thinking of that, that's better than most people. A lot of people. So how, I would say, like, how are things going to improve in your business and your life? I mean, you can even extend this into your personal life too, to create better stories and be more engaging. Like Even Onyx said 10 years ago, I think he said when he goes to parties, he used to be so nervous, he would just leave because he didn't know how to really communicate and engage and captivate someone's attention. Well, that's what you'll get after the 21 day challenge.

Yeah, I'm going to get on a 21 day challenge.

I think I need it same.

So I'm pretty pumped about this. And Anik is a great storyteller and we're going to talk about storytelling and you're going to enjoy this episode a lot because he is a great storyteller and he's telling great stories throughout this episode. So this was, you know, a really fun interview. We really enjoyed this conversation and all of these little tricks that he's sharing with us on this episode. We're going to compile them into some notes that you can go grab.

Freaking A. Let's get those notes, huh? Let's start this out right. Yes. So pause this. If you are not driving. If you're driving, you could probably Pause it, but just don't type. But yeah, get the notes. As always, you can go to the URL hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m p. That's hustleandflowchart.com Comp or you can text the word comp to the phone number Mr. 38470. So text comp to 38470 and you gotta be quick. They do go away in two weeks after this episode goes live, and then they get locked into our EGP vault, which is not expensive, but at the same time, it's not free. Yeah.

So if you want them free, go to hustleandflowchart.com now or hustleandflowchart.com comp or text the word comp to 38470.

I was like, what are you making up? URLs on the fly now.

You should get dot comp, but I don't know if you can. I don't think that's a thing.

Cool though, actually. All right, we'll look into that. So get the notes. You're going to need them. You're going to love them, actually, from Onik and.

Yeah, all right, I liked it. Let's go talk to Onik.

Let's do this.

This is an awesome episode.

Hey, before we go over to the episode, I just want to give a shout out to our podcast sponsor, LinkedIn. And it's really cool because they showed up right at the same time where we've been obsessing over LinkedIn and testing it out as kind of a new and I put that in quotes platform to focus on and put our content on. It's actually working out really well. So we've noticed that people over there take action. These are actually professionals looking for professional type stuff to further their business and things like that. So you can actually reach the right professionals at the right time. And there's a bunch of them. There's something like 62 million over there right now. So organic content and all that stuff's great. But also LinkedIn ads are fun, frickin amazing, actually. They're working really well. There's targeting and all sorts of different things you can try over there. And what's really nice is we've secured some free credit for you to try so you can try it out yourself. LinkedIn's actually offering a free $100 LinkedIn ad credit to launch your first campaign. So simply visit LinkedIn.com flowchart that's LinkedIn.com flowchart and, and terms and Conditions apply. But go. Be quick. Go check it out. Got Nothing to lose. $100 free credit. Go test out some ads. See what you can do. All right, let's head over to the episode. Anik, welcome to the show, man.

Hey, man, thanks for having me. I'm excited. All right, let's hustle.

Let's. Dude, we got a flowchart a little bit too, man. Grinding with.

No, that's what I said. So let's hustle and do some flowcharts.

There it is. I love it, man. Yeah, man. You came prepared. You probably had the most beautiful set that we've. I think design pickle guy Russ was. He had a pretty good look, too, but I don't know. You're right there with it.

All right, awesome. Thanks.

Yeah, man. So everything you're doing, you're talking about. I mean, you're doing some really cool stuff with. Obviously, copy is a huge thing that we were just chatting about prior to recording here. Webinars conversions. I mean, you're just doing stuff differently. Different than the masses out there. Different. You're not seeing a lot of people drive the amount of folks to webinars like you are right now. I think you were even just scouring Facebook, just all the different ads, and you're like, dude, no one's running things to webinars right now.

Webinars do not seem to be a hot topic at the moment, But I don't know, I may just be out of the loop or something, but I'm not seeing a lot of webinars being.

Done right now, which you're doing some amazing things there. So I think. Just seems like you're kind of taking that lateral approach that's different than the norms, and that's what we're going to break down here with you, at least.

I'm excited. Let's do it.

Yeah. Cool.

Well, before we do, let's. For anybody who may not be familiar with you, let's quickly go through your backstory. How did you get into the entrepreneurship world? And how did you build your business and get into this whole game?

Yeah, it's crazy. I'll try to keep it quick because I usually tend to go down a big rabbit hole on this when people ask my story, look, I was never meant to be an entrepreneur. I'm Indian. So what do Indian people become? We're doctors. Been to a hospital recently, but that's what we do. My sister's a doctor. I got tons of doctors in my family.

I went off to study biology and eventually go to Med school. Within a few months of school, I was like, I hate this. It's not for me. And I couldn't help but think back to the days I was doing lemonade stands and the entrepreneurship bug clicked. I switched over to business school. It was a big painful process. It was hard, it was scary, it was risky. Got to business school, super excited. Three days into business school, I'm like, God, I hate all this too. Classes suck, and I don't want to do any of this.

I guess I realized it wasn't the classes that were bothering me. I just wanted to do. Like, I was tired of learning. I wanted to go out there and get something. I wanted to hustle man flowcharts. Like, seriously. I wanted to, like, Excel stuff and, you know, get into the meat of it.

Yeah.

So I turned to Google. I typed in how to make money.

Oh, you did that rabbit hole, huh?

I did, I did. And Google auto filled it for me and said online. And I'm like, sure, whatever. It's one of the things about money. It took me 18 months. From there, I went down every rabbit hole you could possibly imagine. I saw all the stuff out there, found my way into this world of, like, digital publishing, selling on ClickBank PDFs. It was a really cool forum, and it just made sense to me. I was like, I can do this. Well, I mean, I thought I could. Took me a long time. Wasn't really able to. But through that, I found ClickBank, I found Digital products. I found this world of, like, really high commissions through digital products. And one thing led to another, and I finally did start to make some money right at the nick of time, like towards the end of junior year of college. So I could, like, kind of get out of this whole, gotta go get a job.

Good timing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seriously, Right after all the struggle. It was like, nice timing. But then I gotta tell you, in the middle there somewhere, I got introduced to this person who just started hounding on me to learn copywriting from him. He was like, I'll be my intern. I'll pay you every month. I want to teach you copywriting. And I was like, you want to teach me to write? That's like the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I won't do everything. I would stab my left eye with a knife ten times before I learn to write.

I'm not sitting there, class.

I was like, I hate writing. It's the worst. It's the only subject that got a D minus in in school. Like, I don't want anything to do with it. And then he just kept at it. And then he offered me a free vacation to Delray Beach, Florida, to come to an event. I'm a broke college kid. I was like, dude, I'll take a free trip to Florida Beach Del Rey.

Just there, too. That's not a bad spot.

Exactly. So here's the story. You were just there, right? So you'll really relate to this. The person who invited me, his name is Justin Ford, okay? And I'm there, and he sits me down in the front of the event. So I was like, damn it. He really wants me to pay attention. It was a awai event. It was a writers conference.

And I'm in the front row, and they say, ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together for Mark Ford, also known as Michael Masterson. Mike jaw just dropped to the ground because I didn't like copywriting. I didn't know copywriting, but I knew enough about the digital world to know who the heck Michael Masterson was, right? And he walks out on stage, and I'm like, the most starstruck I've ever been. I'm looking at this guy, I'm like, wait a minute. They said Mark Ford. Is his name Mark Ford. Wait, the guy who brought me here, his name is Justin Ford.

Are they related?

So I remember, like, lunchtime, I ran back to Justin. I said, justin, his name is Mark Ford. And Justin starts laughing. He's like, yeah, it's my big brother. And that, to me, was like. I was like, hold on a minute. The. The brother of arguably the world's number one copywriter has been practically begging me to work as an intern to him for months, and I've been turning it down. I said, all right. That was when I was like, sensei, I give up a hands up. I'll do whatever you say. I'm in. Like, I'm sorry. Forgive me. And Justin took me under his wing for over a year, man. And just. I'm so grateful to him till this day. We keep up. We keep it. That took once a year. So that's.

I love that.

That was it. Like, that was how. And that took off after that, man. That's when my online career went from making 10, 20, 30 grand a month to, like, making 300, 400, 500 grand a month. It was just, like, nuts.

Yeah. I mean, I love that synchronicity right there. Yeah. We're just at, you know, Rich Sheffern's event in Mark Ford's freaking private cigar bar, and he was hanging out there, and That's. I mean, are you still in touch with, you know, his brother, like, as. As your mentor and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we are. Actually. I would say about once a year or so, Justin kind of switched into, like, more real estate investing and some other areas he's not really. He sold his. The business he had with Agora. He sold to Agora. He moved out of it. But, yeah, absolutely. We check in every now and then. I actually saw him a few years ago. I was in Florida and hung out with him for dinner. And it was so, so cool because he was one of my first mentors. And I mean, I just can't put into words what he did for me. And really, that's what I'm doing now, man. I mean, as of 2020, my mission has been, I literally have said to bring the message of good copywriting to 100,000 entrepreneurs. And I'm very specific about good 100,000 entrepreneurs. And it's like my way to do what Justin did for me at a grander scale, because, like I said, for me, the ability to write copy, like the simple formula, which I'm sure we'll go over today, that is what unlocked, like not just hundreds of thousands or millions. We're talking like deca millions. I've done quarter billion dollars in sales now online, 250 million in sales online. I'm 36 years old, you know, and. And I don't work that hard. Like, I'm, you know, I get a lot of chill time in too. So it's. It's really like, that's why I'm. I really want to get this out in people's hands, because everyone out there just thinks copy and conversion is hard. It isn't. It really is.

Well, from your perspective, for the listeners that are probably not playing at your level, but they're just doing their own thing. They're just trying to get something off the ground or maybe just scaling something that's converting, but not to where they want it to be. Because you said good copy, and I know you have a formula. You said it's not really the words getting stuck into specific words. There's more to it than that, I guess. Give us some perspective just to kind of start this off of like, you know, there's a lot of copy stuff that probably people have digest. They probably listen to people on here read books. What's different from what you guys are talking about over there?

Yeah. Okay. So when I teach copy, I'm very different about how I approach it. Okay. And I want everyone to understand words don't really matter anymore. And I think that's a part people don't understand. So I have to kind of start really high level to answer that question. And I'll work my way down, but I promise I'll make every word count. Piece of it count for you guys. So one of the things that I'm out there that's very controversial, that I'm out there saying a lot. And I feel like, you know, if Dan Kennedy could come right now, he'd slap me for saying it. But I really believe in it. And that is direct marketing is dead. If nothing else, direct marketing has evolved. It's no longer even close to what it looked like. And it's evolved into something I call and have been calling for the last so many years. I call it interactive marketing. So think about it this way. Direct marketing was always one way communication, right? It was literally you send someone a letter to their home, they read it, they either call and buy something or that's it. Consumers have ultimate control now over advertising. And they're constantly interacting with us, engaging with us. I mean, just look at a simple Facebook ad. Facebook knows whether they stopped scrolling, whether they watched a video, how long they watched, whether they click the ad, whether they click like or left a comment or click share. So that engagement that the user is giving to the ad alone is interaction. And that interaction is driving their experience and yours as an advertiser. Now, why is this relevant? Because in the world of copywriting, interactive marketing has made copywriting stupid easier. So much easier. Why? Okay, so 30 years ago, if I wanted to sell a weight loss program, the best thing I could do is go to a data company and say, I want to sell a weight loss program. And they'd say, great, this is a zip code. Here are the women we have between ages of 35 and 45, they're known to by date, weight loss programs. Go ahead now. Well, 10 grand, we'll give you the data. So I call it the shotgun method. 30 years ago, 20 years ago, you had to use a shotgun method, which means you had to write such good copy that the minute that bullet exited the barrel, it would spread wide and you would go get people that weren't even maybe thinking about copywriting and get them into your genre of, you know, whatever, like your topic today, man, I go to Facebook. I'm not doing that. I'm doing sniper rifle, man. I can target people specific to forget weight loss. I can target people specific to the type of weight loss program they are following. So now here's what happens. Back 30 years ago. I'd have to write the secret pill that when you eat it, I don't know, you'd have to write all this.

Would you say it was more of like an open loop more or like it's. What the hell is the term where it's like. Yeah, you can't really get specific. You're trying to just bring them in. So it's gotta be a broad stroke, you know, in terms of the copy.

Yeah.

You had to cast a wide set and hopefully your message resonated with a handful of them.

Yeah, yeah. It just had to be so good, right? Like it had to be so well played, well written. Wordsmith. So well.

Now. Okay. If I want to go after someone who's in the keto market, this is like literally I already know they're into keto, so I can make all the assumptions in the world. They're into weight loss, but I know they're into keto. So you know what? I got to use jargon and words that are relevant to them because it'll drive emotion and get their attention. That makes copy easier. So I got to put the word keto in there. Thirty years ago, you can't put the word keto in your headline because most of the people have no idea what keto is. You had to put something really.

Overwatching type phrase to get them interested in weight loss and then they breed and then you get interested into keto and then they read and then you get them interested in you. Now I'm like, skip all that. So a headline for the keto space would just be like.

Five keto recipes you can make in 30 minutes or less to shed 10 pounds.

Bam.

That template, what I just gave you, you take that template and just replace words and you got yourself a headline template that'll work. 9 times out of 10, just replace keto and replace the benefits out with jargon that's relevant to whatever market you're in. So that is a gift of interactive marketing. Because your targeting is so strong that actually makes copywriting really easy. Because now you're like a sniper rifle, alright? So you keep going one level deeper and you think about. So I'm purpose driven when I teach copywriting and whenever I even teach my five step formula, I try to teach everybody that copywriting is not about the words, not anymore. It's all about the psychology. Copywriting is an emotional visual journey that you send someone through. That journey leads to a purchase, but you're about the journey. It doesn't matter what words you're using, it matters what psychological triggers you're hitting. It matters what emotions you're creating, it matters what visuals you're creating. And that's all human behavior, human psychology. One more thing I'll give you. Microsoft does this study in 2015 and proves that the average attention span of a human being is eight seconds. That is one second less than a goldfish. Goldfish have nine seconds.

That's right.

And that is a new revelation. Because of things like this, I got dings and bings happening all over the place and I'm distracted. And so shiny object syndrome is alive and well again. More reason for it to dictate interactive marketing. Your marketing and how you communicate, not just for sales, but how you communicate with your team, how you communicate with your wife, your husband, your kids, how you communicate with, you know, a vendor that you're trying to buy stuff from. You've got to deploy the fact that they don't have attention. Like you've got to keep their attention, right? So this brings me to purpose driven copywriting. When I have a five step formula, every step there's a core purpose. So when you read my copy, it's not words. I never care about what words I'm using. My core purpose is to take them through the journey, take them through the narrative, make sure the purpose of each of my steps has been achieved, and then it comes down to even a simpler explanation of what copywriting is. And that's how I write copy. And it's so different. A lot of people think if I asked someone, what do you think the purpose of a copywriter is? Most people answer that question and say, to sell a product. And actually that's not true. In my opinion, that's not true. A copywriter essentially has two purposes, and if they can do both of these purposes, they're gonna be amazing. Purpose number one, to get someone's attention. And that is to make them stop scrolling, to make them pause, to make them say, to make them ask a question like what? What did you just say? Huh? How? What? That's core purpose number one. Core purpose number two of a copywriter is to keep their attention. This is again, statistically proven. The longer you keep someone listening to you intently, the more likely they are to buy. The actual buying behavior is simply a byproduct of the narrative you create. So the narrative you create not only helps you get their attention, it keeps their attention. And by a byproduct of that, you end up getting more sales. So when I write Copy. I'm writing a story. I'm writing a season of Breaking Bad. Yeah, I'm writing a season of Game of Thrones, right? Like, I'm writing something that'll keep someone, that'll intrigue someone, that they just, they have to finish it. And that's where good copy comes from. Most people think great copy comes from hypey words, you know, and then you end up looking like a car salesman. And actually it distracts people away. Swipes like, you know, what is a swipe, man? Like, I can't send a swipe out to my list. Oh, how I talk. They know who I am. It's not going to work. And so they're gonna check out. And hence I failed as a copywriter if I don't have their attention. So my whole approach to copywriting is so different. And that's why a lot of people will tell me, anik, you're such a great storyteller. It's because literally my whole copy is in its own way, a journey. And it's like I say, it's a season of Breaking Bad. You just can't put it away.

Well, and now that the marketing is sort of more of this, like two way communication, like we put out marketing and people can actually interact on our marketing, right? They can leave comments, they can leave reviews.

That could be good and bad, right? But the good thing about it is the people that are our ideal clients are essentially telling us how to sell to them, right? They're basically using the words, they're using the language, they're using the. They're showing us what sort of things interest them and the things that they desire through their sort of comments on the marketing that we're putting out there. And it sounds like what you're saying is that like we can sort of leverage that in this new sort of two ways communication of marketing that we've got these days as well.

Yeah, man. It's so easy to do research now to understand what your market wants. It's so easy today. So I did this live in front of a bunch of students that I was teaching copywriting to. And it was a fun exercise. And I kind of put myself out there on the limb a little, but I thought, let's try it. So we picked a space. The students chose dog training. I don't have a dog. I know nothing about puppy dog training. I just don't know of anything about it, right? So I said, all right, so into Facebook, I typed in puppy dog training or dog training in the top, found a Few groups. Found one group that had like 28,000 people in it. That looks awesome. Joined the group. It. Luckily, auto approved me. Sometimes it might take a few hours to get approved. It. Auto approved me. I logged in the group and I just scrolled. And what I started doing is I created a word document that they could watch me. So I split my screen with two browsers. I had one that had Google Docs up and had one that had the Facebook group up. And every time I would catch phrases or words that I saw being used, I copied and pasted them over. And these were just. It was such an amazing exercise. I must have scrolled for about five or six or seven minutes in front of the group, and I swear I had enough.

So how would you pick which words to focus on? Were they just like specific terms you saw repetitively used?

Yes, I looked for phrases. So I looked for things that were problems, like, how do I do this? How do I fix that? I looked for pain points. Like, I remember one. It caught my attention. It was something like, my dog won't stop pissing on my. On my couch.

Perfect, right?

And I was just like. I just. I just figured, like, man, that's probably something a new dog owner just kind of like, super relate to. So I just wrote that phrase as is on the word document. There were words. There was a certain type of leash, certain type of. There were like training toys and tools that were coming up a lot. So I like, wrote them down. Because that's jargon. That's if you're in the dog training mindset, those things will mean something to you. So I want to put them in my copy. There was just common problems, common objections. Oh, there was one. My dog will bite me. Like my dog bites when I try to discipline him. I just never thought about that. I don't own a dog. And I'm like, well, that's gotta suck. If your dog is biting you wants to get bitten. That's gotta be something in the sub headline there. That's gotta be something I can make a video about for an ad. And I had no intention of doing a product around this. I just wanted to show students that you can pick pretty much any obscene example. Now go online. Forget Facebook groups. If that's too much, just Google it. Look up the top articles. Go to ezinearticles.com and type in your subject and just read to see what people are writing about, what topics are being written about. Go to Amazon.com, type in dog training. Pull up 10 books that are popular Pull up their table of contents and look for trigger words. I mean, it's just. I really believe if you gave me two or three hours and gave me a niche I know nothing about, in two to three hours, I could write something that would make you think I was a pro at it. And I still don't know anything about it, but I can catch all these words and phrases quickly off of the Internet.

Yeah, and there's gold in those Amazon reviews, too. You know the reviews, they're going to tell you, these are the things that we like about this book. These are the things we don't like about this book. And you'll start to figure out real quickly what people are digging about the content and what things they don't like about the content.

That's right. Yeah. We use Quora all the time, you know, for Reddit. Those are all amazing. I love Quora. Just because people are literally asking questions that are typically pain points around whatever topic.

You're exactly right. Man, there's so much. That's the thing.

Think about it.

We didn't have this 20, 30 years ago. This is why I tell everybody, we're blessed. Copywriting today is easy. Just need a formula, plug it in. All the information is out there, and your consumers are engaging with you. You know what, you can split test stuff. You can buy 100 bucks in ads and split test headlines. You couldn't do that 20, 30 years ago. It would cost you 10, 20 grand to just, you know, send out one campaign. It's so awesome. Yeah, I get excited about it.

I want to circle back around to the whole storytelling element of it because you're mentioning, you know, you're writing the next season of Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, that kind of thing. I think to me, that sort of almost sounds like over overwhelming a bit. Right. Like, how do I come up with these storylines? And I totally agree. I think people want to be entertained while they're being marketed to, I think. I think you need to kind of blend the two. But, I mean, me personally, I don't feel like I'm a great storyteller. How would you recommend somebody go about cultivating that?

No, I'm glad you caught that, because that's not what I meant at all. And so I'm glad you caught that. All I meant when I'm right, when I said I'm writing the next game, because I'm not that good at it.

You know, I don't want to be a. I can't write a show. No. What? Okay, so let's break down. Why do people binge watch a T like a series? It's open loops, right? That's what creates binge watching. It's just, you know, I always say it's the end of the episode and the main character turns their back and his wife grabs a knife and they stop right here.

Fade to black.

Yeah.

You're like.

Like, did it happen? What happened? And so you're like, okay, okay, I know it's one o' clock in the morning and I have to go to bed, but I'm just gonna hit the next episode just to see if she stabs me, right? And then next thing you know, it's 4:00am and you're still watching. And so open loops is what I mean when I say I'm writing the next. I'm just focusing on making sure I keep dropping open loops. But in the end, you can forget about all of that. I have a very simple formula for doing stories. So stories. In my five step formula, stories is step number two. So step number one is this introduction. And for each of these, I always say, right, like introduction, story, content, transition, pitch. That's the five steps again. Introduction, story, content, transition, pitch. You hear that and you're like, that's it. Really? That's your whoopity doo, right, Anik? Like big, big thing. No, because when I teach it to you and when I show you the purpose of each of the steps, that's where the aha moments happen. 90% of copywriters I know are using each of these elements very incorrectly because they misunderstand the purpose of the element. So let's just go straight to story.

Let's do it.

Most people say a story, they'll start like this. So story. A lot of people will say story. What's the purpose? Credibility. I got a I am Onyx Singal and I'm the best things in sliced bread. So a lot of people would approach story in the world of, let's say I'm trying to sell a copywriting program or I'm teaching someone copywriting. Let's say I came on and I was like, hi, my name is Onyx Gal. I have a Master's and PhD in English. I am a three time New York University Times best selling author. I've won four Pulitzer Prizes for poetry. And today I'm going to teach you how to write. Anyone can do it. And it's like the other person's like, what the.

No, anyone could do that. Really?

Yeah, like none of what you just said. I'm a d Minus student that barely graduated high school, I obviously cannot write. It's like instant disconnect. And most people are approaching the story section of their copy exactly like that. They're bragging about themselves. And what you don't realize is by bragging about yourself, you're actually violating and literally doing the opposite of the core purpose of story, which is not credibility, but it is actually relatability.

Yeah. So you might be highlighting qualities that people feel they might not have in themselves and sort of pushing them away from you.

Yes. Okay. So I use a very simple visual. I love to use visuals to help people understand these. You know, take away the golden nuggets of this training. Batman versus Robin. So if I came to you tomorrow, I'm like, hey, man, what are you doing tonight? What are you gonna be doing around 1 or 2am and you'll say, I don't know. In bed, sleeping. I'll say, geez, that's really selfish of you. You suck. Like, Batman's out there saving lives every night. Why don't you go out and make yourself useful and do something like that? And you're gonna look at me and say, I'm not Batman. I don't got billions of dollars. I'm not in the best shape of my life. I'm not, you know, I don't have toys and trinkets that save my life. And. And I would say, okay, sure, you're right. We can't relate to Batman. Batman's a mythical creature, mythical thing that's a superhero. What about Robin? Like, what if I asked you, hey, man at one o', clock, can you meet me at the. Can you meet Batman at the corner of 5th and K Street? He needs a ride down to the other side of the city because he's gotta go fight some crime. You'd say, sure, I could do that.

It's Batman. I'm kidding.

So what I try to teach people is that stop making yourself Batman in your stories. And unless you're a coach or consultant, unless you are the product, that is the only time in which you're allowed to make yourself Batman. If you are the product. Otherwise you are always Robin. You are the person or the figure that was so blessed to be to have come across this product, this system that you fell upon, that you strived hard to get, that you worked hard to get this system, this product that is Batman. And you can have it. But you don't need to relate to the system. You need to relate to me. Look at me. Little old Joe Schmo who Had no chance in heck of ever doing this in the beginning. I told you. I actually started. And there was a point at which I said, if you reverse analyze even how I teach copywriting and how I talk about it, you will see me deploy my systems. In the teachings, I said, I hate writing. As first subject, I got a D minus in. It's the worst thing in the world. I'd rather stab myself in the left eye 10 times that for 80% of the people listening are like, yeah, me too.

Me too.

Yes, me too. That I agree with Anik. I hate writing too, and I suck at it. And then I go on to say, yeah, I know I suck so much at it, but thank God I found this system. I was so fortunate, so lucky to have met this man, Justin Ford, by chance, who happened to be the brother of one of the top copiers in the world. By chance, he showed me a system that I since have evolved. And so you're sitting there thinking, like, man, I don't think I want to take the odds of me meeting a guy like Justin and learning this and taking two years to learn it like Onyk did. They all just let him teach it to me. They won't just let him give me the system. And so then as I go through my story, the purpose of my story.

Journey that I took to find Batman, how did I find this product? How did I find this system? And that's the journey that innately is opening up all these loops and subconsciously selling the crap out of you without even knowing it. But it has to be relevant to the product. So when you asked me, right, you asked me in the beginning, how did you even become a copywriter or how did you start your online business? Man, there are so many parts of my story I could talk about. I could talk about the part that, you know, the point where they had to pull the plane over right before it took off and take me off because I was internally bleeding and had the plane taken off, I would have been dead over the Atlantic Ocean. It's not relevant, though there are other topics and other times I'm selling or teaching other programs or that story is relevant. So I only told you about the part of my story that was the journey towards the point that I'm making, and it was relevant to that. So that's how you tell a great story, is you tell a journey, you walk someone through. So the joke my family has about me, this is my family, not even my colleagues or people I work with, they say that I could take a Trip to the bathroom and turn it into an epic journey. And they're totally right. I mean, if I'm at a party and someone's like, hey, man, where you been? I was like, oh, man, you won't even believe it. You know, I just, like, it was like five minutes ago. I kind of walked to the. To the right and like, I was feeling something coming on, and I was about to grab a snack and then, God, dude, I just. I had to run. I ran to the bathroom. You won't believe it. There's like six people in the line. I didn't know what to do, so I ran upstairs. And people will be completely like, what happened? What happened at the end? Yeah, at the end they're like, I finally peed, man. It was awesome. And they're like, oh.

You're like, wow. All that interrupt with a phone call.

Halfway through your bathroom story, you open the loop and then when you're done with the call, they come back to you, like, so did you finally go to the bathroom?

Yeah.

And so you think about that. Why is a story so powerful? And if you can understand. Again, getting back to simple psychology, core purpose driven messages. If I tell you so, I want you guys to think along with me right now. So I'm just going to make something up. I'm going to say, so I literally want you guys to kind of think through it, try to listen to me. And.

I woke up in the morning shivering in my bed. I could barely move my legs, but I knew I had to get up, so I moved my legs. And as my feet touched the ground.

It was ice cold. How was I going to even get to the bathroom to take a shower? I looked outside. I could see icicles hanging off the windows. All right, I'm going to stop right there. Both of you were probably going through a visual that's different than each other and then mine. And you are likely placing yourself in the story. You are very likely in your bedroom, in your bed, looking out of your window.

Yep.

Nailed it. Yep.

And the purpose of that is I've placed you in the story.

So you're literally embodying what you're saying. Yeah.

So I have taken your subconscious, and this is where I'm going to do the real selling. I've already made you a part of the story. I've made you a part of the journey. I've made you a part of the solution. I've made you a part of the problem. And so now when I get to the end and offer you a solution, I'VE left you hanging. I mean, it's literally like I'm selling you a heating device. You're ice cold, you need it. And it's just a natural progression. And story, believe it or not, a story is just step two of the five step system. But everything else wraps into the story. So when we go to content, which is step three, you can't do content unless you relate it back to the story. The introduction, it's really one of the main purposes of the introduction is to set up the story and then the transition in pitch. If you didn't do a great job setting up the pain and the hardship in the story, then they don't really want what you're selling by the time you get to pitch. So it's crazy how story is where it hinges. But if you understand the purpose of story, which now a lot of your listeners should, it's a lot easier to tell the story when you realize it's a journey.

Yeah.

You know, so if you ask an engineer, what'd you just do? They'll say, I went to the bathroom. You ask a marketer, what did they just do? Dude, they just had the most epic Star Trek journey getting to the bathroom.

And you're gonna have like 10 people around you at a party listening to your, you know, just trying to take a piss story. And this goes back to. Well, I love. Sorry, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

Yeah, I was gonna say you used a specific example where you said, 10 people around me at a party. And this is one I actually talk about when people say, I'm not in sales, I don't need to learn copy. And I'm like, look, if you breathe, you're in sales. Because every day you're trying to influence and impact people, whether you have kids, family, wife, husband. You guys wouldn't believe this. Fifteen years ago, I was so shy, man, I was so shy. If I went to a party and I didn't know anyone, I wouldn't stand in the corner. I'd leave. Like, I was anxious. And today, and I'm not talking about work party or whatever, like today, if I go to, like, a personal event of family, people, they don't know I'm onyx and call the Internet market, or no one really cares or comes up to me. I guarantee, give me 20 minutes and I'm gonna have a crowd around me and I'm gonna be talking. And it is because the way I copyright has now become how I communicate. It's just a part of me. I can't even stop It. I can't control it. And it makes me more interesting.

It does. I mean, that's the thing. And this goes back to. It seems like the hook. I mean, the story is the hook and that's where it's gonna get the engagement. I mean, even at a party, just if you put like, compare a party to, say, Facebook, Facebook's like another party. People are scrolling, looking for something interesting, and they're looking for that engaging thing which most things just don't capture the best engagement. I think on Facebook videos around, like you said, about eight seconds or so. Seven, eight seconds. And that's hard to even get that kind of engagement. So you're meeting them where they're at with a story that actually resonates. They can embody. And yeah, it's speaking to their subconscious. They're. They're hooked at that point. And then you kind of got them. It sounds like.

Yeah, that's.

It's really.

Right.

So how does this transition into content? What. What's the difference really between the story and the content? And we don't have to go through all five steps and drill down on them. I know we don't have time to do that. And that's what the, the challenge is all about. But. Or is it a challenge? Or the. Yeah, the 21 day challenge is all about? But yeah, I'm just kind of curious. What. What's the big difference between the story and the content?

Yeah. So content is king now, even in sales messages. And so actually I say this. So again, we'll go back to, like, what most people think about copywriting. So if you ask, someone said, where do you get the sale? Where do you actually get a sale? In a sales message, 95% of people that don't know this stuff will say in the pitch and the answer is wrong. It is not in the pitch. Actually, the pitch is, in my opinion, many times, if you've done copy correctly, the least important part of your presentation. Because consumers have so much control now. Because consumers are bombarded with so many messages and so many options, they've become demanding. So now consumers are asking to get relevance and value even out of your ads, even out of your sales message. The key with content. So we go back to purpose. What's the purpose of content? A lot of people would say to teach. No, that's completely wrong. You start teaching, your sale is gone. It's out the door. And a lot of people love to teach. Right, because they're naturally. They're more natural in teaching. They're a Little nervous selling. The purpose of content, ironically, is credibility, and that's what we think. A lot of people think the purpose of story was. But it's not. Here's why. So we'll go back and rip apart this very podcast. People are listening right now. And here's the truth. By the end of this podcast, you'll, as a listener, make a decision as to whether you think I'm smart or not, whether you want more of me or not, whether I've helped you or not. And you're gonna make that decision. You're gonna have a moment where you say, does this guy really know copywriting or is he just fluff? And the way you're gonna make that decision is, did I give you an aha moment in this session? Was there at least a few times where you went, damn, he's right? Wow. Wow, I didn't think about that? And you know what? I don't have to tell you how many awards I've won. I don't have to tell you how many medals I have. I don't even have to tell you how well I've done online. If I can teach you something new, if I can make you have an aha moment, if I can make you think about something you've thought about, always one way, but a different way, I got credibility in your mind because I got you. I did something new for you. So in the content section, the goal is to create a minimum of three and a maximum of five aha moments. And these are moments where you've got to focus on creating the moment with the what, not the how.

Right?

So when the Atkins diet came out, they said, lose weight by eating as much bacon, steak, and fat as you want. And people are like, what?

Right, Exactly. But the first thought you have as a consumer is, okay, that's B.S. it's not true. Even the government says, the food pyramid says, blah, blah, blah. Except he comes and says, oh, yeah, here's scientific evidence. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You've been lied to your whole life. This is the truth. Look at my case studies. Look at the number of people that have eaten bacon and lost weight. And all of a sudden you go, oh, crap, he's right. Carb turns to fat, unused. We don't need it. We are not cavemen anymore. Like, oh, my God. And so you just had a huge aha moment. And all of a sudden you're like, who the heck is this Dr. Atkin guy? He's smart. I'm gonna Google him. I'm gonna look him up, he got instant expert status. And so that's a very exaggerated example. But in your stuff, like when I'm teaching today, I'm gonna make sure that I give you three to five aha moments. I don't want to give you too many because then you're overwhelmed. I served you too well and you're not gonna buy my stuff. Well, this is a podcast, so that doesn't really relate here. I guess I'll do whatever. But if this was a sales message, three to five aha moments. Focus on the what. Don't give them the how. That's an open loop. But the what itself is like, whoa, cool. And then by the time they realize you're pitching and they're like, yeah, I don't know how to do this. Like, I think I need this.

Yeah.

So content also, one last thing to remember. Our content people are very linear. Our minds are very linear. Please don't just throw away random things at people. Best example I can give you about this is people who go to, like, peak performance personal development events. They'll be there for three days and they're just getting, like, hit with, like, amazing content and energy and music. And all I know is they come out on day four, they'll run through a brick wall. Like, they will, you know, they'll do anything.

But they don't know where they're running, though. That's the problem.

That plus, have you ever come, if you've ever talked to anyone that's come out of, like, a big personal development event and they're super excited, man, it was awesome. It was amazing. It was the best thing ever. Just ask them one question. Say, what'd you learn?

So true.

What'd you learn? What happened? What happened at the event? And literally every one of them will pause and go, hmm, I don't know, but it was just awesome. We just did so much. I'm just ready to. I'm ready to do this. And it's like, I know, but it's because they were just like, bam, bam, bam, bam. And there was like no linear ness to what happened there. So when I teach content in a sales presentation, I have my five step system, my three parts, my triangle of, my square of, my rhombus of, or whatever. So that while they're seeing the content, the consumer is always very actively aware of where they are in my system. And I've not lost anybody.

Well, it feels very tangible. Like you just said the triangle, the square. I mean, we've had a lot of folks on the podcast here Talk about the triangle of trust. Like Molly Mahoney talks about that with her Facebook training. I mean, things like that are simple to remember. They're tangible. And acronyms, another thing you can do as well, you know, the five step challenge or, you know, steps that you're walking us through now is perfect example of this.

Well, I mean, I wrote this book, right? And the book is called Escape. It's an acronym. It's from employee to entrepreneur. And then SCAP are acronyms that base the whole book around and it's how to escape your life. And so this is a lot of thought process that went into this. But, you know, but I can keep someone's attention even throughout the book. They know where they are, they know what I'm talking about. So I'm a big, big, big fan of linear content. And a lot of people miss this, man. Sometimes when people are too good at what they do, they're not linear. Like, they start to bounce all over the place and the new person just gets lost. And a confused consumer never buys. Regardless of how good your pitch or offer is. They just won't buy.

Yeah, no, I mean, I'm personally having aha. Moments during this conversation because a lot of the way that I try to sell the stuff that we sell is through just pure education. Hey, here's a tactic you can go do and implement right now. Let me walk you through it. You can go do that. Do you want more of that? Well, here's what you can buy from me. Well, no, I don't want more of that yet. Let me go try this first. Right? And I just lost the sale. I mean, I'm having those AHAs as you're explaining this. I need to be giving them a perspective shift, not an action item that they can go do right now.

Right?

Yeah. So I'll give you an example. We are launching or by the time this is aired, we've already launched, you know, something called Conversion Academy. So I was designing the pre launch for it and I'm like the core hook that. The core message, the core training I really do want people to walk away with whether they buy or not is my five step system. And I really feel like that alone can get. Can really change the way people. And I've proven it. Like so many students have had just, just hearing that message, they're like, oh, changed the way, I think. So I'm like, I want to do some pre launch videos, but I don't want to give it all away. Like, then why would you show up for the Workshop or the webinar. So I came up with this where I said, okay, I'll tell them what the steps are, and then I'll joke about how I know it doesn't sound like it's that sexy, but I promise you, when you hear the way I present it, it'll change your life. So I'll tell them what the steps are, but I won't tell the purpose of the steps until they come to the live training. So my pre launch video, I was like, here's what the steps are. You think completely wrong about all of them. Show up for my training and I'll tell you the true purpose and the true way to approach each of them. And it will change your ability to even influence your children to clean their room. And so it's like, give the what away. But if I end up giving the what and the purpose and the how and everything. Well, I mean, some people will still show up to the webinar, but so many won't because I just serve them so well. And again, there's a time and place for it, right? Like your podcast, it's a content piece. Like, you should be giving away content and doing great stuff, but in a sales message, man, it's gotta sell.

And that's goes back to the journey as well. And what's really nice with, say, this, a podcast, like you said, it's credibility. It's, it's, there's branding associated with it, there's trust building, relationships, and then there's ways to, you know, again, journey, give them a next step. Like, what does that look like? And for you, like, it's perfect. Like, hey, go check out the challenge that, you know, the 21 day challenge. I think that would be an amazing next step. I know that's what I want, but that's, that's pretty much how it seems like content should live. Like, what kind of content do you personally put out into the world to kind of feed your own machine?

Oh, man. So we do all kinds of content. So we have our podcast, right? The Fighting Entrepreneur Podcast, which, which I love. And so that's a selfish podcast for me. It is not for my students or for anyone out in the world. It's for me. And I just let everyone else be a fly on the wall. And that's what's made me fall in love with doing the podcast where to the degree where I'm like backlogged and by multiple weeks. So I use the podcast as free consult sessions, right? I find people who I want to learn from that are doing stuff. Because I'm so busy with our business, I haven't been able to learn a lot lately. And that. That kills me. Like, I love learning new things, so I find people that are really good. Like, we recently had Rachel Peterson on.

Yeah.

And if you guys haven't had her on, you've got to have her on. She's doing crazy stuff with TikTok. And I'm like, I just don't get TikTok. Like, I find it to be, like, the most obscene, obnoxious thing.

And then she comes on and she's like, anik, I'm getting 2 million views a week. What? She's like, I've completely stopped all my Facebook ads. I've tripled my business's profits. I'm like, okay, I'm all ears. Like, what are you doing on TikTok? You know? And so she lays out an entire strategy for me, and everyone gets to listen to it. And so that's the podcast. I have my YouTube channel where I'm going to be putting out a lot of content. It's a lot of fun. When I do content, to be very honest with you, I just do content. I like to take my sales hat off. At that point, I'm just, okay, I just give. And I think. I think content, the purpose of true content, not sales content, the purpose of true content is to build your tribe. It's to build that trust. And what I find is those people, they'll just buy. Yeah, they'll just buy to buy just because they like you. They just want more of you. They'll buy. But if you don't give the content with your full heart, then they can sense that, and then they don't. Then they, like, no matter how good the sales message is, they, like, don't buy, you know, because they feel like you were tricking them.

Yeah. There's a big separation between, like, content in a sales message versus content on a content platform.

Sure.

So I'm two different Onyx. If I'm on a content platform, I am teacher educator. Let's go, let's unveil, let's reveal. And I still. I just find a. What happens when I've done that is when. When that I. When I do the sales message, like, it. My conversions go up by, like, 4X because they just pay that much more attention to it.

Right.

But still, you know, like, I'm not apologetic. Like, if I'm on a podcast and I've got a product coming out, like, again, you know, conversion academy, whatever, I'm not apologizing. I tell them flat out, I'm gonna sell you something. And I wouldn't sell it to you if I didn't believe you'd need to buy it.

And I find that this works so well. This is why I'm saying copywriters don't need to be used car salesmen. Like conversion isn't about that anymore. If you have the psychology, nailed it. If you know who you're talking to, I start my webinars. I say, hey, listen, how many of you have ever been on a webinar and had something sold to them at the end? Yeah. Say yes. Say yes. Say yes. Okay, good. Listen, I have an offer for you at the end today, but let's come to an agreement. I'm gonna serve you so well. I'm gonna give you so much content, so much value. Whether you buy or not is irrelevant. You'll have gotten a lot of value plus 95% of you on this webinar. It's not even relevant to you what I'm offering. So what I want to do is I want a 75 minute agreement. Guards down. I'm going to teach you, take notes, pour my heart out. At minute 76, I'm going to ask you for permission. You give me permission, I'll present to you an opportunity to work with me at a deeper level. But I will earn it by first teaching you tons of stuff. Fair enough. Everyone type in yes. If you agree, type in yes. And on minute 76, I say, Guys, that wraps up. Blah, blah, blah. Here we are. I want to talk to those of you who'd like to work with me intently for the next 10 weeks. Type in yes if I have your permission. Just like I told you I would ask for your permission. And it's just so awesome. People are so. You know what? People are thankful and like, yeah, please, please, please. I want to see what you have versus, like, here we go. It's another pitch. Because consumers aren't stupid, man. Let's just.

You're opening the veil. I mean, you were being so clear. And that was a perfect example of an intro. I'm assuming you know, for your five step formula. That intro, you literally just were for any kind of webinar out there or.

Video, probably it's probably the closing of the intro because the real purpose of the intro is what's in it for me? Right? So you have to answer what's in it for me during the introduction. So if I started with that, I'd lose a lot of people. But If I start with, hey, if you watch me for the next 75 minutes today, I'm going to show you seven ways that you can double your income without investing, starting a business or buying anything. It's like, cool. What's in it for you? I'm gonna double your income if you give me 75 minutes. And then as I build it up and I give a few bullet points, then as I'm getting ready to intro to my story or move to my story, I'll say, okay, I want to have a guards down moment. I want to relax your anxieties. I want to just tell you what to expect today. I want to be upfront and honest and genuine. And you know what? They already know. It's not like they're not dumb. They know they're there to. You can be pitched something. So why don't we just lean in on it and just have fun with it? So that's it. I call it permission based marketing. And that's again why I feel like copywriting and conversion is getting so much easier because it's becoming more and more transparent. You don't have to be fancy, you just have to be honest and upfront.

I kind of feel like psychologically too, telling people that, like, you know, it's probably not for most of you guys probably makes people feel like, my God, I bet it's for me. I bet I'm one of the few that it is for.

I mean, look, in the end, right, we are like my book that's coming out called the Silent Salesman. I mean, I know sales and I'm good at it. And there's a reason I'm saying that. And that reason is reverse psychology, right?

Sure.

Basically making you say, because in the end, what my. Okay, when you sell to the subconscious, the goal of selling to the subconscious mind, and that's where you should always sell. So the first three steps of the five step formula sell to the subconscious, not to the conscious. The subconscious doesn't want you to tell it what it should think. So the best sale is when you sell yourself. So when I say, look, there's a 95% chance this is not for you and your mind, your subconscious says, hell with that.

Yeah, yeah.

Bet you it is for me. I'm like, okay, if you insist, maybe it is right? And so the person's like, yeah, it is, it's for me. And so it's like versus if I was like, there's a 95% chance this is the perfect product for you. You've been waiting for this all your life. It's gonna change your life. The person's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Guards up.

Yeah, guards up. Oh, my God. What are you doing? It's crazy. Reverse psychology totally works if you know how to use it right. But in the end, the core purpose and core goal of reverse psychology for me is I want to make. Yo. I want to make working with me or buying my product your idea, dude.

It just seems more fun too, you know, if you're doing that, you're hanging out with the people that are genuinely wanting to. Well, if they're trying to prove you wrong while they're doing that with their dollars, you know, or at least their attention span with you, and you're creating friends, I mean, they're there to genuinely. They're curious about you and what you have, so.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I went into, you know, I went in to buy. I remember when I went in to buy my Audi R8. I. This was years ago. I mean, I don't. You know, I know I got, like, a sports coat on and stuff right now. Like, I told you guys before we started, this is not how I know normally. T shirt on, got a backpack. Like, I do not look like some kind of business.

We look like us.

Yeah.

Exactly. I walked into the Audi dealership, you know.

Yeah.

And I asked and I said, I'd like to speak to someone about an Audi R8. And I gotta tell you, they kind of laughed and was like, well, you know, do you just want some brochures or what are you looking for? I said, no, I want to sit down and see the inventory and, you know, get something moving. I remember the first guy was like. His exact response to me was, you realize it's like 140, $150,000 car, right? I got super offended to the point I was like, you know what? Not gonna work with you anymore. But it's so funny because I. I gotta tell you, at a subconscious level, I don't know if I was really there to buy it that day. Like, I was ready to see what was the inventory. I'll go. But that kind of got under my skin. And I was like, you don't think I can buy it? I'm not walking out of this place without the deposit on that car. So you feel like an idiot. I'm like, I walked out later, I was, like, driving home thinking about it, and I was like, wow, did I just spend 150 grand to make a douchebag who I don't even know in my life feel like an Idiot. Like, yeah, you know, I wanted to buy it.

He's over there being like, hell, yeah.

And he probably still got the commission.

But it's. Yeah, it's just. You think about it, right? Like, people will react differently. And you just. You could think of these extreme examples and realize that you want to deploy that properly, but there's a way to do it and be genuine, and it actually helps you be less salesy and it's just awesome all around. So there's all kinds of little things here that you can apply.

That's right.

They all impact the five steps, but in the end, it's like the five steps are the core, and then there's ways to augment each of those and make them better. Reverse psychology would be one of those ways that you can make things better.

That's perfect, man. Yeah. And I think it's a perfect time in this environment of a lot of noise when you can stand out and meet them where they're at and walk them through that journey. And then you have this formula to basically follow and you ingrain your own subconscious to actually become a storyteller and a silent salesman, basically. Or woman, whatever it is that fits your boat. So talk about a conversion academy really quick. And the 21 day challenge, because that sounds like something we should all be a part of.

Yeah, man. Thank you. So life's work, passion of mine. I've been writing copy now for over 17 years. I've done over a quarter billion dollars. And I gotta tell you, I'm very passionate about copywriting and conversion to the degree that one of the easiest ways to ruin my day is to submit really bad copy to me in the morning. It just really makes me angry. And I've been wanting to do this in 2020. Just decided was the year that I was gonna really take my message. My systems, my approach, my ways are very different than what are being taught. And I feel they're very simple. They're much easier to apply. And so we created something called Conversion Academy. It starts with a 21 day challenge. And here's my promise to you. Here's my offer. Give me 21 days, and I'll make you into a better copywriter than 80% of the world. Okay, I will make you into a good copywriter. I can't make you great for great. You gotta stick with me for a little bit longer. But hey, it's not bad to be better than 80% of the rest of the world. 21 days. I'll make you better than 80% of the rest of the world. And we have a challenge where I walk you through how to apply the principles I'm teaching. The five steps. We write together, we write headlines, we write narratives, we write outlines, we put together hooks. It's really cool. And the skills you learn in these 21 days, I promise you will change how you communicate to humans for the rest of your life. Not just sales, like human connection and communication. Then I hope you stay on with us. And we have a membership site where every month I review copy, my coaches review copy. Our leadership council reviews copy. We get together every Tuesday. We write copy together for hours every Tuesday. We have amazing training templates, software. We have something called a headline analyzer. You pop a headline or a hook in there, it actually gives you a score with specific steps on how to increase and make it better. Really cool things in there with full blown community access reviews. So to check it out, here's what I want to invite everyone to do. Just go to copyin21.com so c o p y I n21.com, copyin21.com it's literally, I think it's like $3 a day to be a part of our three or four dollars a day to be a part of Our 21 day challenge. Listen, become better than 80% of the world in 21 days for a few bucks a day. It doesn't get any better than that. Come join us. Let me earn the rest of your business. I know once you get in there, you're going to be so excited about what we're offering and you'll be so blown away. You'll stay with us for a while. And as part of that, we also have some really cool books that we give away to you and just things that you that will really help. And other than that, man, I just want to invite everyone to listen to our podcast to the fighting Entrepreneur. You know, go, go check it out. We have some really cool stuff going on there too. But right now it's all about copy. Conversion psychology, sales. I want to change people's lives and I want to stop seeing bad copy so I stop having bad days.

See, it's a selfish venture for me.

We all benefit from that. So this is great. So copy in 21com, go check that out. We're going to go sign up as well, man. It's been great. And we always ask about a book as well. Like some kind of book that just resonates the most with you. Maybe something you come back to all the time. You recommend some pop Up.

Yeah. So I got. You know, man, I love this book. Wow. I'm having a total mind blank. Scaling up. I'm a big fan of scaling up. I'm actually getting ready to do it to do a reread of it soon. Think and grow rich. Can never go wrong. True classic. I love predictably irrational.

Gosh, man, there's a lot of books I do like. I'm a very season driven reader, though, so it depends on what's, like happening in my life. So right now I'm super into copywriting, sales, conversion, all that. So I just grabbed like 15 books that I'm gonna start reading. I want to rip off my sales psychology stuff up, not copywriting books, because I don't care about that stuff. I want to go read, like, true, like sciencey, like, brain sales psychology stuff. So I will report back to you guys on what I've read. But. But yeah, I mean, I have a. I have an account on Goodreads if anyone wants to go. Follow me. Sweet.

Okay, we'll link to that in the show notes then. For sure.

Yeah. Just type my name and you can see what I've been reading, you know, and I've been a very good reader the last year, so don't judge me.

We won't.

Awesome. Copy in21.com. Everybody go check it out. Get on that. That 21 day challenge. We're going to get on it ourselves as well. And thanks so much for hanging out and being so generous with your time and your info today.

Yeah, man, that's awesome. Thank you for having me. I always love talking about this stuff and I always say this. So I want to end my presentation today with saying, when life pushes you, stand straight, smile, and push it the heck back. Entrepreneurs go out and fight for your dreams, guys. You guys are rocking it. Thank you for your hustle and for everything you do for us entrepreneurs. I love, just love everything you guys are doing.

Love it.

Bam.

That was good. All right, buddy. See you. Take care.

Thanks so much for tuning into that episode. I hope you dug it. I know Joe and I dug it. I actually kicked Joe out of the room. He's not here right now. Because I wanted to tell you about a tool that I really, really dig. We use it in our business. We recommend it all the time. It's called Easy Webinar, and it's a tool that lets you do live webinars, automated webinars, hybrid webinars, and, you know, pretty much any other kind of webinar. If there are other kinds of Webinars. But anyway, this tool is kind of like your all in one, do it all tool for anything webinar related. It's Easy Webinar. It's put out by a dude named Casey Zieman. He's been on the podcast. If you haven't listened to that episode, it's a killer episode. He's a really smart dude, but his software is amazing. It does everything. It's, you know, the title tells you exactly what it does. It's an easy webinar platform form. And we use this in our business to run automated webinars all the time. We don't do a lot of live webinars these days. We like to do the kind of automated webinars where somebody can register and then it, you know, they can either watch it like 15 minutes later or they can watch it the next day, but it's just kind of always running. And it's a system that helps us make autopilot sales off of our webinars. Super cool tool. If you haven't tried it yet, you know, it's, it's, it's an amazing tool. And Casey is actually hooking you up. He said for listeners of Hustle and Flowchart, I can't believe he's doing this, but he said for listeners of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, he's giving 25% off of the membership to use Easy Webinar. It's already super, super inexpensive for what it does and all the cool features it has. But he's hooking you up with 25% off because you're a listener of Hustle and flowchart. Go to easy webinar.com hustle. That's where you can get that 25% off discount. That's Easy Webinar.

It's a awesome tool. You're gonna dig it. So just go grab it. Check it out. Easywebinar.com hustle. See? No, not see ya. You'll hear me in the next show. I don't know. I don't know how to close these things. Go get Easy Webinar. Talk to you later.

Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode.

Of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast.

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