Archit Batlaw - What Does The Future Look Like For eCommerce?

If you get to a point where you really believe in something, you shouldn't have a side hustle because it's just gonna take mental capacity away from what you really wanna be doing. And so I think side hustles is fine. I think it's fine to diversify your effort and have something in multiple baskets. But when you know that something is really gonna take the cake and is really important to you, that's when I think you should just double down with your time and your resources and, you know, have that alignment of, like, I trust myself to really be good at this one thing.

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, every? Listening to the Hustle and Float Shark podcast with your boys, Mount Wolf and Joe Fear. Wiki Wiki Wiki. Welcome back.

Hey, we're here.

We're here.

Are you ready to rock and roll? Rock and roll.

Yes, I am. It's like we finish each other's sandwiches.

How do you know I was gonna say that?

Because we make that joke again later in the episode.

You gotta wait and listen. Let us know when you find it, though.

Oh, opening loops. That's what that's called, Opening loops.

And then when you're done, leave a review on Apple. Please, please. Only five stars.

All right.

Why are we already doing that before we even tell y' all who we're chatting with today?

Well, we're talking to Archit Batlaw. This episode is awesome. So Archet was he. He worked for Facebook for three years and on the side, ran a flower business and then crushed that. Crushed it in the flower business huge.

Hugely, fastly.

Yeah. And then he. He walked away from Facebook to start his own agency. But in this episode, we're gonna really deep dive into. Well, a whole bunch of things. Right? We're gonna talk about, like, what it's like behind the scenes working at Facebook. A big evil corporation. Not really, but we're gonna find out what it's like behind the scenes at Facebook a little bit. We're also gonna talk about tech and where big tech is going. Where the companies like Amazon and Netflix and Apple and Google and Facebook and where they're all. Yeah. Some trends that he's seeing and where. Where those companies are going, which I think is some really, really good insights for, you know, how to direct your own business and your own marketing.

We talk about. We also talk about what you should actually be focusing on in the next, say, five to more years in the future. And hint, it's not things like really copywriting or writing the best Facebook ad or Something like that, you know, these kind of skills. We talk about some interesting things there and the three things that you really should be focusing on, you like these open loops stuff and then actually talk about being happy and like freeing your mind. And two mental models and frameworks that he uses to keep himself sane and totally crushing it in business and it seems like in life as well. So Archit is.

Just a cool dude. He would be a friend if. Well, he is a friend.

He is a friend.

He is a friend. But I'm thinking like, you know, an in town San Diego hangout.

He is in San Diego.

Damn it.

Well, just for one more week.

There's a time limit on our San Diego friendship.

Okay. Okay.

Unfortunately. But, but it's just a cool conversation. You'll love it, I think. And if you do love it, you should leave us a review.

Yeah, leave us a review. Also, grab the action guide. If you go to flowchart group.com that's where you can join our Facebook group. While joining the group, there is a series of questions. Answer the questions. We'll also hook you up with the action guide for this episode and the whatever four most recent episodes are live when you go there. So go to flowchart group.com and we'll hook you up there.

Sweet. Let's talk to Archit.

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All right, we're rolling. Archid. It's great to finally have you on the show. We've been talking about it for some time, man.

Yeah. Great to be here.

Yeah. Well, you're. What you're originally. I don't know originally. But you typically live in Austin, Texas and you're in San Diego now. We couldn't make the in person thing work. Bad set up for. We're not set up for, you know, three plus folks. But I know you wanted to come in here. He would have been the first guest we had in the, in the new studio.

Well, if you are still in San Diego or you come back to San Diego, when we finally do get our studio rearranged the way we really envision it, then we will definitely have you back for sure.

Maybe I can still be first.

That's okay.

Maybe you can still be first.

There's always a chance. Well, quick shout out to Sue Rice for hooking up the connection here. Cause she's been on the show and she's been a good pal, you know, like kind of advising us for certain things. So when she recommended we should all chat, I was like, no brainer, you know. And it's cool to hear that she's helping you out with some stuff as well.

Yeah, she's great.

Yeah, man. Well, give us a scoop because like this is. We're chatting. Like you don't do podcasts, which is cool, you know, like, it's almost like that's a rarity for us. So it's like, ooh, okay, where are we gonna go? It's like a mystery conversation.

Yeah. We're so used to people that are on the podcast circuit right now that have told the same story 17 times. So it's like awesome to kind of go with someone fresh. I'm not gonna say what I was going to say. Cause it is a dirty reference. But like, where are you going to say? I won't say it, but no, let's dig in a little bit. So you were working at Facebook right between about 2017, 2020, for a few years at Facebook. Working with consumer. Consumer products, basically, like physical goods, e commerce, and also offline companies.

Let's talk a little bit about what it was like working at Facebook. I'm just curious what was the culture like? Did you go into the Facebook offices every day or was it like a work at home thing? What was your experience like there?

Totally, yeah. So I was at Facebook in Austin for just about three years. It was actually my first job out of college, which was pretty interesting. I had done a couple odd things here and there, but this was the first real role I had and very much like an interesting experience of corporate America. You know, Facebook moves very differently from a company like IBM or a more traditional company. The culture is really young, especially in Austin. It's probably. Average age at that office is probably 27 or so. So it's a lot of like young folks, a lot of, A lot of just like talk around E commerce, future of tech, future of work, like all this kind of stuff that maybe has become a little more normalized in the past year or so, but was pretty new in 2017.

And very much felt just like a group of, honestly like a group of young folks who are just trying to do something good in the world. If you put enough good people in a room together, something good is going to come out of that. So I have a lot of thoughts on Facebook, on positive impact, negative impact for the world, all that stuff. To me it kind of boils down to if you have 20,000 people in a company and 17,000 of them really believe they can do something genuinely amazing for the world, something good is going to come out of that. So that's kind of what I subscribe to. Nice.

So you spent a few years there and you were working. Was it like in the advertising kind of space? Because, yeah, CPG products, right?

Yeah, so, yeah, so I worked with CPG companies, really anything sold in retail or online and worked with around 30 or so scale ups and their agency partners and, you know, other vendors and stuff. And really the goal was to be their best digital point of contact. So when they look at their relationship with Facebook, they go, oh yeah, those guys didn't just help me with Facebook ads, they helped me with CRO, they helped me with creative strategy, they helped me think through how to structure my team. And so it just makes sense for me to invest here. So it was a pretty interesting model in that there was a lot of onus on the individual contributor. It was kind of like, hey, you have to go and impact these people's businesses. Do that in whatever way you think is best. And that level of empowerment, I think was really exciting and really compelling for me.

Was that like the, like, did you have some prior. Well, you said it was Right out of college or university for you. So was it like a ton of on the job kind of learning to navigate all this?

It was, yeah. It was a lot of, like, trial by fire, to be honest. And, I mean, they have a pretty good onboarding system where I spent like three months learning from the head of CPG and one of my mentors there, Alicia, who was just like, phenomenal. And I learned like 80% of what I know now from the two of them.

Wow.

So there was a lot of really strong support there. But, yeah, it was a little bit of just kind of thrown into the flames and see what happens.

What was like the most unexpected thing, I guess, like from working there, like a takeaway that you're like, holy crap, I didn't think I was going to do that or that would happen. I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, just the whole journey, so. I actually wanted to work at Facebook because of a very academic reason. I majored in English. I was super interested in the stories we tell ourselves and how people kind of narrativize their lives and all this stuff. And I was interested in how Facebook was changing the structure of language and the way that we communicate. Even things like memes and emojis are like new ways of transferring meaning that we haven't really seen. Like pre tech, kind of like hieroglyphics or something. If you have to harken it back to something, but the meaning is, you know, I can go on for this for a while. But so that was my initial interest. And so I approached Facebook, I interviewed there for an internship, and they were like, look, you have some pretty interesting thoughts about all this stuff, which is cool, but you really have no experience in marketing or tech or anything relevant. So I went out and collected that experience. Still with the goal of this kind of academic, I'm going to go do a PhD and kind of understand from a critical lens the impact of this kind of technology on language. When I got to Facebook, my whole world shifted and I became really interested in how we connect with our goals through brands and products and how marketing is less so about trying to sell people something and more so about enabling a shift they want to see in their lives through a product. And so with that kind of mentality switch, I think it opened up a lot of, like, what I'm doing now and what I'm hoping to do in the future and all this kind of stuff in a way that before I wasn't really oriented against. I would say I had a much smaller, like, purview. Of why I was here, like, what my interests were. So that was the biggest thing for me. I think probably one of the most interesting things was just seeing what creates success in a company like this. You know, Facebook is really, like, algorithmically driven. But despite that, at the end of the day, it's really just about the team. If you have a really strong team behind what you're doing, and you can give them the ownership to remove yourself from the weeds from the day to day at every level of the business, just trying to remove yourself and empower other folks to rise to that occasion, that's really what turns into, like, a flywheel of success where momentum builds and you move faster. And Facebook has had this crazy growth, and that really comes down to incentivizing the team in the right way. So that was pretty interesting for me too. Yeah.

So it kind of sounds like you don't really see them as like, this big evil corporation that, like, all the documentaries are trying to spin them as.

Right now, social dilemmas and whatnot.

You know, I think I was in this unique position of, like, when a lot of this stuff came out, I was at Facebook, and so I got to hear kind of both sides and see what was happening internally. And, you know, when I got to Facebook, I was looking into this really critically. I was like, where are the tech decks about listening to people's phones? I know it's out here. I know they're doing it. Like, I'm like, searching in the internal wiki, where all information is available to everybody, like, tapping the API, like, listening to people's phones, like, all these keywords. And the closest thing I found was this article that said we technically can't do this because it'll zap people's battery life and they'll notice that their phone died in 20 minutes.

That's a good point. Never thought of that.

And I also heard there's literally no data center on the planet large enough to hold all that data.

Yeah, it's like, where are they putting all that? So, you know, I think, like, a lot of this stuff to me is there are definitely negative secondary implications of Facebook, but a lot of it is blown out of proportion a little bit in the same way that new tech has always blown out of proportion. And when TV came along, we all thought it was going to turn our kids into zombies. And fast forward 40 years and there's no zombies on earth. And video games came out and everyone thought it's going to lead to more mass shootings and all this crazy stuff. And there was actually no correlation there either. So there's been this kind of, you know, at every stage, this like, tendency to push back against technological progress. And I think the same thing kind of happens with social media to an extent.

Yeah, no, that makes sense. So what was. So it was three years there. Was it. Did you have like a calling to move on from Facebook since that seemed like that was your dream job. So, like, did something happen that like pivoted in your mind, like, there's more?

Yeah, I think two things happened. So, one, as I started to get really deep with these early stage companies, I just got more and more interested in the operational and execution side of it. I was like, look, it's great to be advising them on the strategy and working with them on this marketing. And then ultimately someone else has to execute that idea. And oftentimes there's a disconnect between what we recommend and what we see in market that comes to life. It's like, oh, this is the ad campaign you guys made with these ideas. It doesn't really track to what we're talking about. So that was one piece was just wanting to get deeper with the companies that I found really compelling, which were mostly early stage, like seven figure, early eight figure businesses, still trying to find their product market fit. And then the second piece was just I started to see my learning getting a little bit tapered and I started to think more critically about the path that I was on and got to the stage where it was like, okay, if I stick on this corporate path, I'll probably learn 20% new things at every stage because 80% will be my core role that I have to be good at to be paid to do it? So where can I go do something where 80% of what I'm doing is net new and I'm learning Well, probably no one's going to pay me to figure it out. So that kind of led me to, okay, well, I got to do something on my own if that's the pace of learning that I'm looking for. So that was like a big shift for me and just thinking about like, you know, what are my goals in the next five, 10 years? Getting super clear on that and then turning that into more of like a roadmap for what I should be doing on a day to day basis.

Gotcha. Yeah. I think the cause there's of the limited stuff you have online about you, which is awesome by the way, is like you have this thing on. You wrote your story out on LinkedIn and I read that you started a flower delivery service on the side, like in the, I guess your night hours or something when you weren't working at. Oh, it was during the same time you had the Facebook job, right? You started.

Yeah, I actually started it like about a year before I left Facebook. And yeah, it was really just evenings, weekends, like whenever I was not doing at lunch break, responding to customers on my phone, just really whatever I could do to kind of make it work. And that's why I went into that. I was really looking for, where can I learn today? Where can I immediately get my feet wet with E commerce and kind of a subscription based business or something like that. And I settled on a flower delivery service because I had a lot of ideas. I had ideas around skin care, all this stuff, but they all required like a two year lead time to develop product. And flowers was the only thing where I called a local farmer and I said, hey, I have this idea. It's subscription local, local blooms delivered within Austin. We can keep it super local and expose you to this whole new market because your only customer right now is Whole Foods and there's this huge D2C flour business going on. And he was, he was interested. So I had, I had a product in hand. Within a week, I launched a website just to kind of validate. And then within probably 10 days or so, I had my first three or four paying customers. And so the business was kind of born before I even had a business model, which is probably not the best way to do it in retrospect. But again, following this theme of trial by fire, I just jumped into it and said, hey, now it's a thing. We have customers who expect flowers every month. We have to service them. Let's build something around this.

Did you ever use Facebook advertising during the flower business?

I did, yeah. That's how I got the bulk of customers. And thankfully I knew what I was doing. And it was still not really early days at all, but there was still a lot of underpriced inventory on Facebook. And so, yeah, we got our first probably couple hundred customers just through Facebook marketing before moving into anything else like Google or organic even, or anything like that.

Yeah. And you scaled the thing, I think you wrote, to 20k per month. So it was MRR. So you must have relationships with vendors or people out there. That was kind of like a recurring element, right? Or was that like one off?

Yeah, no, it was. So it was a recurring model. So we had both biweekly deliveries and monthly deliveries. We actually expanded to Austin and San Antonio. You Know, for a startup, this is pretty small. For a local business built in a year, I think this got some pretty good traction, for sure. And that's where I was kind of interested is like, you know, a subscription business. You don't necessarily need to have this churn and burn, like 8,000 customers. And you guys kind of know this being on the content side, like you can have one or two thousand customers and have a pretty nice business going, profitable, makes sense for everybody. And that's kind of the stage we got it to. We were doing, I think like 250k in annual run rate, all recurring revenue, had over 90% retention and it was like pretty stable. So that was the really exciting part of it. The not so exciting part was me waking up one day and going, wow, there's a whole logistical headache here waiting for me every morning when I get up of inventory that's gonna go bad in two days and you have to find the demand to meet it and all this kind of stuff while you're.

Working a full time job. Yeah, while I'm Jesus. Yeah. And yeah. Not to. I keep thinking of it because just the ending of it seems like that story was like what you had to do a bunch of deliveries and then what you quickly realized, or maybe it wasn't so quickly. You're like, okay, this maybe wasn't built correctly with the end in mind.

It sounded like, yeah, exactly. I think, you know, I had started down this path that was kind of twofold. On the one hand, I was really interested in the cash flow side of my business, but on the other hand, I also wanted to scale and those things didn't really work together. So when this really happened, I realized this when we opened up San Antonio, we had a new market. I was pretty much driving out at this point. I'd quit Facebook to do this full time. I was driving out to San Antonio probably two or three times a week, which is like a two hour drive. So it's like four hours total, three times a week. This is like starting to kind of to weigh on me. Just to get inventory to San Diego from our farms in Austin.

Yeah.

And then go out and, you know, hand it to the drivers and do all this kind of stuff. And I just kind of woke up and realized like, where we're headed is that we need to build, we need fundraising, we need to get some investors on board so we can build unique logistical infrastructure in every city in the US So that we can scale this. Because the fact that it's local means that you need Local farms or some kind of local growing operation. Maybe it's hydroponics or something. And then you need local delivery infrastructure that we're also building and owning. And then you need a local consumer base and marketing that goes with that. And so you're essentially building the same business 100 times in order to capture market share across the US and I still think this is a really cool model if someone wants to go do this and pivot it into, like, a local farmer's market. Delivered. Yeah, there's, like, I think a huge opportunity there to connect local produce and farms with consumers in the area. But I didn't want to be the guy who was building this infrastructure across the US and spending all my time fundraising as opposed to running my business, and also trying to find people who could build the local infrastructure and all this kind of stuff. And so, yeah, this happened over a few months, but it really led to a lot of, like, cognitive.

Kind of like, backlash or something where I. I'd be in one place thinking about my goals and realizing that my daily actions were not actually laddering up to those goals. So I got pretty clear on what I wanted in the next five to 10 years, and that eventually led to me going, okay, well, it doesn't make sense for me to do anything except for close this business right now, because it's not actually laddering up to those goals. And the path that I'm going down is an interesting and potentially very successful and fruitful path, but it's not the one I want to be on.

Yeah, dang, that. That takes some balls to just shut it down. You didn't sell it or find.

I didn't sell it. I didn't find a new CEO. I mean, I tried that for about a month, and I saw the roadmap. I was like, okay, I can spend five months here and find someone to fill my shoes, but do I want to do that? And I think ultimately where I went is I'll just. I'll trust myself to figure it out in retrospect and be able to tell the right story and, you know, make all of this worth it.

Nice.

And it ultimately became, like, the best experience I could have for my next business. But, yeah, I think that's kind of how I went about the close of the business was just let me trust myself to figure it out in retrospect, tell the right story, and make sense of this with 6 months gap between now and where I want to be.

So was that business running when you left Facebook or did. So was there, like, Some overlap where you were still running the flower business and starting your agency.

Yeah, so yeah, there was actually. So I was, I had just left Facebook. The business was doing pretty well. I wanted to keep all of the money in Friendly Flower because I just, you know, I know for inventory based business there's like cash needs and I wanted to preserve that. And so I started doing some freelance just to pay rent and you know, do all the things that humans do in their lives. Hang out with my girlfriend, all this kind of stuff. And I had two or three clients. And then I think it got to the stage where I was like, hey, look, our clients, our clients really like us. I love this work. It's pretty clear how it maps back to the three goals that I, that I know I have for the next 10 years. You know, why am I doing this other thing? And so that kind of moment of realization happened, I would say very slowly for six months and then like all at once it was like, there's no other option than to just close the business. And I think that's, that tends to be how I make these kinds of non reversible critical decisions. Think for a six month window and then pull the trigger.

So you kind of get all the data, you get all the information you need. You're probably like getting the bumps and bruises along the way, driving too far, managing stuff you don't want to. You're just like. And I thought of this and nope.

Yeah, I mean it was like I driver doesn't show up. I'm on the road delivering flowers because someone has to do it. They need to get out today or they're going to go bad. Oh, by the way, I have a client call starting in 30 minutes. Let me take that from the road. I've memorized these metrics in the morning so I can speak to my client. And like, you know, there was a lot of cognitive load going on, dude.

Well, you, that's actually something you hit it on the head with, like taking these actions that don't align with goals. That's something Matt and I have been really looking at ourselves a lot lately because I think there's a lot of, in like, there's a lot of actions we just don't think about that are kind of just subconsciously happening, even though we might be doing them, but even subconsciously we have all these things circle in our minds that we probably aren't choosing to think of, but they're weighing on us, you know.

Yeah, yeah. And this is my, my big kind of problem. I get Problems, a strong word. But my issue with like hustle culture or side hustles is like, if you get to a point where you really believe in something, you shouldn't have a side hustle because it's just going to take mental capacity away from what you really want to be doing. And so I think side hustles is fine. I think it's fine to diversify your effort and have something in multiple baskets. But when you know that something is really, you know, gonna take the cake and it's really important to you, that's when I think you should just double down with your time and your resources and, you know, have that alignment of like, I trust myself to really be good at this one thing. I think today, like optionality is like a big emphasis that people have is, you know, I want to keep my options open, but that actually leads to stagnation because you're, you're always going to be in the 101 phase. You can never devote enough time to anything, you know, So I really believe in like, try a few things, figure out what you're doing and just go after it for five years.

Dude, that's damn good advice. It's like hard, difficult medicine, I think, for a lot of people to take down though, especially if you're so curious or, you know, you have the abilities or you want to help someone out, like whatever the motivation is.

Yeah, totally. And you know, I think all founders, like everyone in this kind of solopreneurs, whatever, everyone in this kind of position, there's probably an inclination you have towards the shiny object syndrome, which I know is very true for me. And that is an inherent optimism that I think is really exciting about the startup world. But to me it's like constantly checking myself and going, hey, I know this thing is cool and exciting, but I'm really, I really need to be focused on this because it ladders up to making a great network of like minded founders, you know, building my cash position or whatever else. Like my top three goals are for the next few years.

Yeah, it's funny, I was just listening to an episode by Noah Kagan, which you may actually know because he was out in Austin and worked for Facebook for a little while, long before you.

I think he was like, what? Oh yeah.

He was like, yeah, I think he.

Might have got more equity than that.

But anyway, he was, he was talking about something very similar. He was basically saying how like all these opportunities are flowing to him all the time and he could pursue them all and he could probably even make more Money if he wanted to do it. But he's like, I just want to put all my mental power on appsumo like everything else. I put my blinders on everything else and I just go all in on appsumo. I know I can move the needle there. And anything else is just kind of a distraction and it's, you know, it sounds like you can have a similar philosophy and I think that's a philosophy we've just kind of recently landed on, which took us too long to figure.

Out, but too excitable over here with the shiny objects.

Yeah. So tell us about what Reach Digital does now. Your current agency. What, like what's the business model? What do people hire you to do?

Yeah, totally. So we're a boutique growth firm primarily for D2C's so we do a little bit of digital product and some other stuff, but mostly it's e commerce brands looking to scale to you know, let's call it something like mid eight figures. So we're mostly working with late six figure, mid, early to mid seven figure brands. So anywhere from, you know, call it like 500k to 7 million and in revenue per year. And they're really looking to become like leaders in the market. So they're looking for quick growth. Really trying at that stage. It's about trying to narrow in on product, market fit and make sure you really have something that works. And then secondly finding go to market fit and how do we show up in different channels to our target audience and show them a lot of value and acquire customers and all that good stuff. So mostly we do that through paid acquisition, through Facebook, Google, all these kinds of channels and through creative so content production and you know, post production and everything that that entails. Creative strategy.

Yeah. No, I like, I like the way you present everything on the page itself too is essentially, well a like the first thing, one of the first things I noticed was the copyright at the very bottom. It was like 2023. I was like, wait, what? Oh yeah, we're living in the future.

I was like, we're in the future.

So cool. But I like how selective you are with the type of clients you bring on, you know, you know, this kind of certain market specifically. And it seems like you're probably most comfortable with it. Those folks too. Is that all taken from like the Facebook days and getting to know the style of businesses?

Yeah, I think part of it was getting to know like physical products and how they work through E comm a little bit through retail distribution as well. That I think more than Even just getting to know it, it's what gets me excited. There's something about like physical, especially consumable products that's really unique to me. The trust that someone places in you to feed them is like pretty intense. And so I think about like the snack category a lot of and you walk into a grocery store, there's 20,000 different things. Just that trust of a consumer to pick something new at the shelf is like a huge burden. And so I get really interested by the CPG category by D2C's because it's a very personal purchase decision. I think SaaS and all this kind of stuff is really exciting today and there's like high valuations and all that cool stuff. But to me it's just, it's less, it's less personal of a decision. It's something that I can not as immediately empathize with. And so I get really excited about consumer facing. And the second part of our positioning is, you know, we work with like founder led brands specifically. And that's just, you know, comes from again like one of my goals is really to build out a network of like minded folks. And I think founders have this like inherent optimism of I've never done this before, this is a huge category, it's a billion dollars, has major market leaders but I'm just going to do it better than them. And that's like a mentality that I really admire and think of myself through. And so yeah, that's part of why we just want to connect with founder led brands specifically in this kind of growth stage.

Yeah, I like the whole optimism kind of framing of it because it's very easy to kind of get into the negative spin of like oh, shiny objects and all that stuff. But it is layered with or maybe encapsulated with optimism because we all think we have these abilities or curiosity and it's fun, you know. And then when you get a whole bunch of people it's like this group think or mastermind where you can all riff off. You might have some ideas on some side, we do on others. And it's like shoot, you can make something cool out of this and I don't know where it's going to go, but it'll go somewhere. It's a thing that we'll create into the world. Especially if it's faster. Yeah, totally.

Yeah. And I think at that stage it's also what's cool is it's less about like the 10% optimization or the, you know, you have a 5% improvement in your ROAS like that's, that's not really what's going to make a difference there. But it's about these like step changes of like, does our product really meet our customers needs? Is our positioning actually showing up in the way we think it is? Do customers really resonate with this? And those kind of like bigger questions are really exciting to me. So even when we're doing, you know, just something like Facebook ads, the lens I'm kind of thinking about it through is like, okay, well is our messaging really resonating with this audience? Because at this stage we don't even have a good sense of like who our target is. So, you know, we can't make all these assumptions that it's like 35 plus women and she really likes yoga and acro yoga, whatever it is. Like you kind of have to take a step back and unlock some of those learnings in this growth stage, which is really cool to me.

Yeah, no, that's interesting. I was thinking like. Cause it seems like you're gotta be tapped in with a lot of stuff. I mean, you mentioned a bunch of stuff in the news and things you're always thinking of like, like you mentioned how Apple's getting into advertising. Netflix is doing some interesting stuff. These big brands now, there's a lot of shifts. I was just kind of curious, where do you keep up with, what do you pay attention to, to keep your finger on the pulse, like the news or YouTube videos that you're kind of watching on.

I'm actually not a big news guy. I think again with this theme of optimism. The news cycle today to me is very inherently negative and has a pessimistic outlook on the world. And so most of where I consume things is through conversations with friends, through YouTube, through a lot of like blogs or substacks or, you know, things like that. I, I'm probably like a, I'm a pretty crazy newsletter subscriber. I'm like a serial subscriber.

What are your substacks? I mean, there's a whole bunch of good ones on there.

Yeah, lately I've really. I don't know how to pronounce this correctly, but. Strat. Straturi or Stratachary. That's. It's with a ch. One of my favorites. He just talks about like a lot of frameworks, business models, like, and that's kind of, you know, I'm really interested in like mental frameworks as well and how you make decisions and things like that, which is kind of what he goes into. Also really interested in 2pm which is like a newsletter about productivity and kind of finding the best way to work and operational efficiency and this kind of stuff. I like D2C plus, which is a D2C newsletter by the agency Pilot House, which I think they're great and they do cool stuff. Big fan of trends, the hustle, like all of this kind of entrepreneurship, dissecting business model, a lot of these folks. So yeah, honestly, the list goes on and on. Twitter is another huge place. I consume a lot of information. I'm very active. I'm trying to be more active as a poster, but I'm very active as a consumer. But yeah, there's a lot of cool information on the Internet. And I got some good advice recently, which is if you're reading a book, by the time you finish the book, it's probably out of date.

Unless it's like a really. Unless you're reading Lean Product Playbook or something like that, probably is as much, if not more value in finding sources that are quicker to the punch and have quicker reaction times to everything that's changing in the world today.

Yeah, I like that angle. I like that way of thinking of it. Well, let's talk about some of the, like the trends and where your predictions would be for the future. But where I want to start with that is probably the one that's biggest on our mind lately, which is Apple iOS 14.5 update made it so that you've got to give permission to collect data. I know with Google Chrome now it's actually dropping Facebook's pixel if it discovers the pixel on Google Chrome. All of this kind of stuff is happening with the pixels and the cookies and the third party cookies getting dropped by these apps. You know, where do you see advertising and retargeting and sort of attribution tracking for conversions. Like where do you see all that stuff going with all of these companies basically, you know, closing their gates?

Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. I think there's a couple answers here. It also kind of depends on the horizon you're looking at. So maybe let's take this from a few different angles. So one is kind of like today, what's happening and what can you do? So like you mentioned, you know, iOS 14.5 is essentially, to put it in a more simplistic way, is blocking Facebook Pixel from connecting the dots on who purchased it and attributing that purchase to Facebook. And then with iOS 15, they're probably going to be doing the same thing with email, where now actually if you put in your email Apple will let you kind of censor it and that they won't be able to see if you've opened the email or, you know, any kind of metric like that. And so that creates downstream implications for your retargeting strategy through email. Did this person actually view our discount code? Is it worthwhile sending it again or not? So there are a lot of these kind of changes happening. Like you mentioned, there's also blocking servers through web browsers and all that stuff. Today, probably the biggest change this has is not really to performance yet, but just to attribution. So what that really means is just finding new ways of attributing success. Some of this turns into kind of like a, well, if it's working, it's good enough. If our media is efficient versus our revenue, it's 30% of revenue or 20% of revenue. We know we're in a healthy spot and we can continue to spend and what we're doing is probably working. And if not, maybe we take a more experimental kind of test and control methodology. We turn off a channel for three weeks, we turn it back on and see what the impact is. And that's the kind of stuff that marketers should have been doing more of and that we would recommend a lot on Facebook to do, like experimental tests. Test something in one geo, test it in the GEO with similar baseline sales and compare the difference. Because that's truly like how you should be making decisions in this world. But because there is kind of like the attribution on Facebook, there was no need to do that. So some of this today is just back to fundamentals like good marketing practices. Write down what your test is, monitor it for two weeks, write down the results and do that another eight times to actually understand what strategies are effective. Right. Like that will always be the best attribution, quote, unquote method that you have. Where this goes in the medium term is more like I would call product roadmap. So on Facebook side, let's first talk about Shopify. Like Shopify just released all this stuff where now the conversions API won't just send back a purchase event. Shopify won't tell Facebook, hey, here's a purchase that just happened on our site. You know, you should probably attribute it to XYZ person, but it'll also say, here's someone who viewed this piece of content, here's someone who added to cart, here's someone who landed on the homepage. So Shopify's willingness to work with Facebook is obviously in a self interested way, but it leads to a much smarter data ecosystem that isn't reliant on browser pixels, but is more like server to server connection. That still doesn't help with iOS 14, but it helps with a lot of this like Chrome extension type stuff.

Where Facebook is probably going to take this, and this is a little bit of my guess, but where I think Facebook is probably headed is driving more in app purchase behavior through Facebook shops and Instagram shops. So a lot of my clients now are getting emails from Facebook saying, hey, we'll give you a $2,000 ad coupon just to set up your Instagram shop. And the reason being they're probably going to want you to start driving ads to your Instagram shop because then they can attribute it within the app itself to that profile. And so this kind of ladders into a broader conversation around where are tech companies headed and what does it really mean to be a tech company anymore or even like a social media company? Like is Facebook a social media network or is it an E commerce network? To me, the future of Instagram is not competing with TikTok, but it's competing with Amazon. And that's kind of how I think about their product roadmap. So that's like one midterm thing that's super compelling to me is just like setting up the infrastructure today so that you can take advantage of some of these new behaviors that these platforms will incentivize. TikTok is probably going to do the same thing where you can buy within the app. Today they barely have a conversion tracking pixel and all this stuff. But they're all headed in this direction of we know searches start on Amazon and that's turned into a huge issue for our business. And so we're going to make more searches, start in app through Facebook Marketplace or Instagram Shopping or whatever. If you even open up your Instagram, you can see how they've moved the UI so it's less emphasis on posting. That's no longer the middle button at the bottom, but it's actually the shop tab.

Ah, interesting.

I think UI can clue you into a lot of like future product roadmap. And that's something I saw last week that was, that was pretty interesting to me.

I guess that's like, that makes sense because they're probably testing, right? They're testing some future goal that they have or some direction they're trying to take their platform. So like, let's see what people, people think about this thing. Are they going to start using it more?

Yeah. And you also notice that those platforms tend to reward the early adopters of their new features as well, you know, as far as, like, additional reach and things like that. So I think that's always a good thing to keep an eye on.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And it's just like, it's really the only move they have to respond to these kind of changes. So it's less a hypothesis, more just like this is what I would do if I was sitting in that chair.

So you don't think there's something that's going to like, replace cookies and sort of fill the same need that cookies used to.

I think it's possible. But at the end of the day, we know that Apple is going to try to get into advertising. And so it's one thing for Facebook to say, let's try to protect our market share on advertising. It's another thing for them to say, well, let's try to actually make a different move, gain more market share by opening up a whole new product suite. And so I think a lot of these companies will take more of an offensive strategy and instead of try to find. Because a lot of this technology is pretty old now, UTMs are like 20 years old. This is like the primary tracking that we're all using as marketers. So I think it's fair to say that some new technology will come out. But on the platform side, it probably makes more sense to try to incentivize in app behavior because you're still controlling the user base and.

You control the infrastructure at that point, which opens up new monetization in the future.

We're also seeing Facebook. They announced a couple of weeks ago, but it rolls out next, rolling out like a podcasting platform right in Facebook, where you can publish your podcast right to Facebook now, which to me seems like a kind of middle finger to Apple a little bit.

Yeah, totally Big one. And I think. And people don't like Apple's new UI on podcasting is what I've heard.

Yeah, I actually haven't seen it, never even looked at it. But I'm sure I wouldn't like it as well because it's different and I don't like change.

Curmudgeon.

Matt.

Well, then you have Spotify. You know, like Spotify rolled out and I mean, they rolled out some new live audio stuff yesterday, I think was Green Room, which I was playing around with that. It's like a clubhouse alternative. I was like, oh, well, yeah. And then, you know, Facebook's already experimenting that Twitter. Twitter spaces. I mean, it is so interesting to see the platforms and how fast they can change if like there's like one thing hits, you know, like a clubhouse or a pandemic that forces change like that. And then now it just kind of becomes part of the new ecosystem we're all playing in.

Yeah, yeah, I have a bunch of thoughts on this. I'd love to get into this. I have one more kind of comment on the iOS stuff that's going on. I think in the very long term, where I see this headed is brand over everything, Brand marketing over any other kind of marketing, if you can afford it. Building a distribution channel and building a brand is probably your best bet for the Next, call it 10 to 15 years. The reason being, I think, you know, with new tech, everything is becoming automated, everything's becoming replicated and duplicated and all this stuff. And so it would be pretty easy for me to launch any kind of company I'd imagine in five years, whether that is any kind of consumer facing good, whether that's coffee company or skincare or supplements. Like even now you can go online and find someone who will make personalized supplements for you and you just put your sticker on it and you send it out. And so with manufacturing kind of becoming a race to the bottom and ads becoming more and more automated, that's also going to be a race to the bottom. You got to start thinking about, like, where is the competitive advantage? Either you have a super innovative product.

Yeah.

Or you have a really compelling brand, or you own a customer base through content and creator and all this kind of stuff. But those are really your three options.

Yeah.

There's not going to be this kind of like arbitrage that there is more so in the past five years, but even today there's still a little bit of arbitrage on Facebook, some skill set that you have that other folks don't have in the future. It's going to be you put in your URL, you upload your image and it just does everything else. AI comes up with the ad copy, they come up with the perfect conversion, optimized landing page. Like all that stuff is going to happen. So really like your brand, your positioning, product, market fit, like those are probably the levers you still have that I'd guess in 15 years from now.

Yeah, that's a great prediction or observation because, yeah, product, brand, and the people that you kind of have the attention of, you could do so much. But like, as to your point, yeah, you have all these different things. I mean, just the fact that you have this agency now, you're surrounding yourself with different product creators or brands that you now have the ability to, you have this network, you can create anything you want on the back of them as well. Kind of leveraging these connections like you were saying, surrounding yourself. But it's, yeah, it's power to kind of have that influence and not really care so much about the other bits and pieces like a platform and ads and all that. Just make sure that you're keeping up, I guess.

Yeah, I think all that stuff will fall into place. Right. And like if you're Mr. Beast and you have the right number of customers across the US you can immediately turn on 20,000 locations of Mr. Beast Burger restaurants from other folks fulfilling it, other folks making the product. Really all you need to do is have the brand in order to be able to monetize that. So I see like part of this is like a lot of like creator led brands in the future. Today they're working with the, you know, creators are working with brands and acting as influencers and affiliates and all that stuff. At some point they'll go, hey, there's margin here that they're making that I'm not making. Why don't I just do this?

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And we've been studying the creator world a lot lately. You know, the YouTubers, Mr. Beast and you know, there's some interviews on Noah Kagan's podcast we were just listening to with his manager and he's kind of saying the same thing. It's like these ones are, they're the production houses that are being created now and those are the brands. They have products like you just mentioned. Or maybe they're partnering with another person or company to make the products.

Yeah, I don't think Mr. Beast gets enough. Well, he probably does now, but I actually think Mr. Beast is probably one of the most brilliant marketers of our time right now. Like the way he's doing it to market his stuff I think is just next level to the way anybody else is doing marketing right now. The way he sort of natively weaves in the advertising for some of the sponsors that he's got. And I mean, I think it's brilliant. I honestly think that's where the puck is going.

Right.

I think that's, it's this creator economy where the creators are the new celebrities, the new media channels. Like the Mr. Beast manager was saying, you know, the guys like Mr. Beast aren't the next like Brad Pitt. Guys like Mr. Beast are the next Fox, they're the next Disney, they're the next, like they're the next media company. And I really think that, you know, thinking along those lines is really smart right along with what you're saying. Like brand is everything, like build that brand. Because that's where you get that kind of control and power.

Yeah, I think it's so. And some of these guys are already doing it to your point, like Dave Dobrik is launching an app a day, it seems like. And it's like really, if you can command the attention. It used to be that there were, and I actually saw an article about this recently, it used to be that there were very limited number of customers for a given market. So if you think about like early PCs, like only Enterprise, that's your only customer. And so access to distribution is how you protect your business and how you grow your business. We have a sales team that can reach out to these hundred enterprise customers who are the only people in the world who are using computers. Everything about the intranet has led to an inverse of that, where now distribution is not an input, it's an output of really good content and best in class production. And so like Facebook got to be big because they had the best kind of product and that led to distribution that they can use to empower this whole ecosystem of advertising. Similarly, like someone like Dave Dobrik has the best content for his audience, which leads to him owning distribution, which leads to monetization opportunities for the brands and his own companies and you know, whatever, all that stuff that happens in the background. So that kind of reversal to me of like distribution now being a privilege and not this thing that you guard as a company is like, that's a really interesting move that I think older business models like traditional agencies, traditional software companies are not really able to keep up with in the same way.

Now you made a comment before we hit record about how Netflix is getting into E commerce. I'm curious, how is Netflix getting into E commerce?

Yeah, so Netflix just launched Netflix Shop, where this is like initially this is their version of Disney's merchandising efforts where now you can go and buy a T shirt from Stranger Things or some cool merch or toys or whatever. That's not really what I think is. I mean there's one thing interesting about that, which is merchandising is a cool opportunity. It builds their brand, it's a good long term play. I think what's more interesting to me is when Netflix announces that within netflix.com, when you're watching a show, you can click on the product and Then just go buy it on their shop. That's, I think, is probably the next move there and maybe like a couple years. And that then becomes really interesting to me because now you're really. Netflix versus Amazon becomes like a very possible comparison where they're both coming to this from a different angle. Amazon has started with the logistics and the infrastructure and is now layering content as a way to promote that. Netflix started with the content, has access to the distribution again, and is now layering in product to monetize that. And so it is kind of. It's interesting to me, to me, for me to see how all these tech companies, it seems like their business models are starting to converge in a way where it's like we're just going to do a little bit of everything. We'll do some advertising. We'll do. And it's cool that Netflix has really pronounced like they're never going to do advertising. I think that's a really smart way to guard the brand. But it does. It does lead to this question for me, which is like, what does it mean to be a brand in the future? If you're doing e comm and SaaS, you know, Amazon for, you're doing E Comm, you're doing aws, you're also doing entertainment, you're also a publisher, you own news channels and like, all this different stuff.

They have physical storefronts too now.

Yeah, yeah. Grocery. You're doing grocery. Like, you're doing future tech. Like sell driverless cars. It's like, well, what is. What is the brand like? What do you stand for? Yeah, it's an interesting move. I think it's also like a dangerous move. And it seems like Netflix knows a little bit about how to play that game. But I'm mostly just interested to see when I can, like, watch a show and just click to buy the bed, the pillow, like, whatever's in. Whatever's in the scene.

It's going to be like that scene from Fight Club where he is like, it shows all the IKEA furniture that's around his house.

I would like that still frame. I mean, it's brilliant. I mean, platform thinking, man. It's like you can contain this whole ecosystem and I guess each platform has its own agendas and how they architect this thing based off of their product and user behavior.

It's fascinating to really kind of deep dive into how this is happening right now, but also where the puck is going, where is this headed? And really kind of start to forecast a little bit and maybe try to position ourselves that way because it's all things we can leverage, you know, these platforms.

Well, the Netflix merch kind of thing is really smart. I mean, obviously Disney's done it for a long time, really, really well. But if you also look at, you know, coming back to Mr. Beast, I feel like he's done that really, really well as well. Like his, his largest revenue driver in his business is his Mr. Shop. Misterbeast.com. right. His store where he sells all his shirts. And it's interesting because like, he kind of learned that if he builds a tribe around his following, a tribe of people that will proudly wear his brand like, you know, literally on themselves all the time, you know, then he's gonna, he's gonna grow and more people are gonna want to be part of that tribe. And Disney figured that out a long time ago, more with like a lot of kids type stuff. But it sounds like Netflix is kind of doing the same thing around their TV shows. Like I'm in the Ozark tribe. Like I, I like, I like Ozark. Look at my creep. Whatever. I can't think of his company. He's like my Charlie Bird. What's his name? Something bird.

But it's like it seems like they're actually kind of taking a page out of some of the YouTubers books a little bit in that sense of like creating a tribe around the content they're creating.

Yeah. And I think you're right that like, you know, essentially like clothing is the biggest, like way to represent yourself as something. It's like really obvious signaling to other people that this is how I view myself. And that is just like so powerful for brands. So I've even seen a couple, you know, beverage companies, snack companies, launch some merch as an additional, not even as a revenue stream, but as a marketing channel to say, hey, we can build advocacy amongst our core group and spread word of mouth marketing by releasing some merch. So let's just do it at cost. And that's like Nick Sharma talked about that a little bit, I think like early last year. And that also, I think is just a great way to simultaneously build the brand and build revenue.

Yeah, I mean it's. And we have all the resources now that you can just print on demand or super cheap. Yeah, it's like, you know, you don't.

Have to hold inventory.

Yeah. You don't need to deal with it. Just send it to another platform that's handling all the shirts. I mean, it's like there's solutions for everything as long as you have the strategy.

Yeah. So what way do you see Apple getting into advertising? What do you think is going to be like their entry into that world?

Yeah, it's a good question. And actually this is probably the one I'm the least sure about. So yeah, you caught me.

We won't call you out later. If the prediction's wrong.

I'm gonna backtrack and say no. Well, I think there's like a couple of ways. So one, like Apple already has a suite of publishing products that looks and behaves pretty similar to Facebook's in app publishing tools. So if you open an article in Facebook or in Apple, you'll still be within that Facebook or Apple interface, but now you're reading an article by you, the post or whatever it is. And so that's like one really obvious monetization opportunity where like you can now have little video or image ads within that content as like a little way to sponsor it. Breaking up the different paragraphs or something like that. I think there's also like an element here of like tech that has not quite been built out yet. So I'm not really sure where, where this is going, but I think it makes less sense. Like Apple's never going to be the company that puts an ad when you open up an iPhone because they're too premium to do something that obviously, you know, low brow or like commoditized or whatever, whatever you want to call it.

Kindle.

Yeah, right. Like, like there are, yeah, there are companies that are, that are going to do this, but it's not going to be Apple. So. So then to me it's kind of like, okay, well they've got to build in new moments where there is like less obvious monetization. So I wouldn't really be surprised if there was something like an Apple Shop in the future that was an app that's already on your phone that's, you know, included in the native os, that's a destination for shopping based on behavior that Apple sees you doing. And then they start to, similar to the search in, in the App Store, they start to sell like premium inventory and space and top search results and all that recommended editorial lists, like all this kind of stuff within that space. So I'm not really sure. I think there's a few places today where Apple could come out and start advertising, but it's probably going to be less around those because they don't represent this step change in revenue that I think they're looking for from the side of the business. And I think it'll look like a New destination. I could be 100% wrong about this, but that's kind of how I would approach it. How I'm guessing they're looking at this.

I mean, that's kind of how they've always done everything too right. They create a new destination for whatever their agenda is at the time, and they kind of point people that direction with a new app, like you said, an iOS, a native app. It's like, okay, now we're going to put more attention, kind of link it up to all the other parts of our platform, and it's going to be.

Forcibly shoved onto everybody's phone, whether they want it or not.

No, I don't want that.

Yeah, that's true. I mean, that's what they did with news podcasts like this. This has kind of been the playbook. So let's see. But shopping is a little bit harder to do than, I think, like, a news poll. And I'm not like a tech expert, maybe I'm wrong about that, but it seems like the level of personalization is maybe a little more robust, maybe not.

I like the prediction. I can get on board with it.

Nice.

We won't call you out, but we'll call it the good.

Yeah, I mean, I could see them doing something in the podcast world as well, you know, with sponsorships on podcasts. Well, they already are doing some premium podcasts where they're exclusive to Apple and stuff like that, which I'm sure Apple will probably monetize those in some additional way.

Yeah, they're allowing affiliate, like people like us who are promoters to promote someone else's show and get part of that recurring income or revenue. Yeah, the subscription model, that's a new thing. So, I mean, they're. They're dabbling. They're definitely, you know, trying some new stuff out, which is interesting. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I just checked the time, and we're. We're keeping you a little longer now, so. Got to be true to our word, my man. But I. One last thing. I saw you mention it, like, few different places and kind of got the essence of, like, the agency, but like, like, it's kind of like this thing of happiness is always kind of sprinkled throughout everything. And it's like you're just having a good time. And, you know, it just feels like that's kind of like a maybe the glue that keeps you motivated to do all this stuff. Like, is there. Do you have any, like, practices or something to kind of, I guess, keep your head on straight? Mental models.

Yeah, I think A couple things. So one is just like, you know, kind of daily routine that's been a big thing for me and thinking about like, what to focus on and what not to focus on.

So I'll kind of talk about that. The second one that's also interesting is. Yeah. In terms of mental models is like how to think about things, like how to think about certain things. And I find that this is like very loose, but that that leads to a greater level of happiness or even like me feeling like I'm successful or something like that than any kind of like revenue milestone or, you know, whatever external factors. So those have been kind of the two ways. So I'll start with the second. So, you know, one, one kind of example of this is when I first started with Friendly Flower, I was measuring revenue pretty much monthly and I was looking to double revenue monthly. And we hit that for like probably seven consecutive months. We just doubled, doubled revenue. And that got us to that run rate. And I, and then I kind of took a step back and was like, well, this didn't really make me feel like any more successful. It kind of just feels like we grew too fast and the wheels are falling off.

So now the way I've been thinking about this more in terms of growth, not in a corporate environment, is to measure quarters. Like if it's a basketball game, you have four quarters. The first quarter really only comes after a year and a half. And so now with Reach Digital, for example, I don't even want to look up and say, oh, what did we achieve? Until it's been like two years or so. And then I'll go, okay, the first quarter is over. What's, what's the score? Are we in the game? Like, are we leading? Are we behind? But until then, it's, you know, it's like the equivalent of it being tip off. The other, the other team has one point. Doesn't really mean you're going to lose the game. There's a whole lot left. So that's been one. It's just like adjusting time frames and adjusting like what are the markers I'm using to indicate where I'm at and where I should be. The other kind of model I've been thinking about is like this. On the X axis, there is X, Y. On the horizontal axis, I think X.

Axis, I think that's X. There is.

On the right is like high impact. On the left is like low impact decision. And on the Y axis on the top is irreversible and on the bottom is reversible. So if you have a high impact and irreversible decision, like I'm going to sell my business to you, that's a decision you should take a long time and think about. And so if you find yourself in that place, you're thinking about this for six months, 10 months. As long as that's the core, the quadrant that you're in. Take as much time as you need to. Like, you know, if someone, someone's looking to buy us out or something like I'm going to really push that decision back until the last possible minute because I want to have all the data. I know I can't make a change after I go through with this. If it's a high impact and very reversible decision, just pull the trigger and go for it. You need to, you need to get something out there now. And I kind of think about hiring that way. Like if you need to hire someone, yes, there's an opportunity cost to hiring the wrong person, but more so there's a bigger opportunity cost to hiring no one. True. And just having no one do the work. And so it's like just, just get someone in the door if they're wrong. You know, unfortunately like that is what it is and you'll have to make changes. But at least you've like kind of got, got an at bat and you're not just like sitting, sitting back. So this is like, and the other two quadrants don't really matter as much. But you know, if it's low impact, low like reversible, just do whatever, like delegate it, like give it to someone else, don't do it like doesn't really matter if it's like irreversible, low impact, just do it as quickly as you can. 5pm at the end of the day, just like get it done and log off again. It doesn't really matter.

That's cool.

So some of these like frameworks have been really helpful for me and just thinking about like where am I focusing my time? It should really be that top right quadrant that should be where I'm spending my mental effort. And then that bottom right quadrant should be where I'm doing a lot of like my you know, like thousand dollar an hour work of like this is impactful stuff. It matters to my clients. But you know, maybe, maybe I don't need to think about it for eight years. Whether or not we're going to launch this ad or something. Like let's just, let's just do it and see if it works, you know, so that's Been a really helpful framework for me. And then the other side of this, like, just day to day wise, I think this has been the hardest struggle for me. But learning to like log off is. Is really big. I'm sure you guys have dealt with this and it's like the most tried and true thing, but I find that when I spend eight, nine hours just thinking about something, if I just go to sleep the next morning, I'll probably have an answer.

Sure. Or take a nap or whatever. Walk.

Yeah, right. Go for a walk or something. And in that moment, you're so tunnel vision and you're so focused that it just doesn't make sense to not think about it. But it's actually like you've reached the point of diminishing returns. There's no incremental impact that's going to be generated.

But we're so optimistic that we're going to figure it. So we'll keep one minute away. It's the fricking mind. Yeah, you're right. It plays tricks on us, man. Yep.

Yeah, it does. Yeah. I think checking myself has been like a big theme for me, is like, you know, check how, how often you're. You're trying to see progress. Check yourself on how hard you're working and is that really driving to your, you know, your goals and that's good. All this kind of stuff.

Yeah. No, because I, I mean, I find myself checking, you know, stats and stuff like that, whatever it is on, you know, even though I know we have like reports and all this stuff, I'm still like, you know, even like, we take Wednesdays off typically. So yesterday I was just like, okay, let's say, like, why? And I would catch myself. Why the hell am I checking stat? There's absolutely no intention.

Like, yeah, I even messaged him on Slack yesterday. When he responded in my head, I'm like, why are you even responding?

I know, but like, no reason. Like, oh, it's gonna be important. It's like. But that's a common struggle I'm sure everyone can relate to in some way. But I love that.

Easier said than done, right?

For sure. Well, rj, man, this is. We covered I don't know how many rabbit holes, but I feel like we covered them all.

Yeah, no, this was amazing. So anybody listening to this? Your company is called Reach Digital. Where's the best place to go check it out? And any social medias you want people to follow you on, now's a good time to share them out.

Yeah, totally. We're reach digital.co. you can check us out there. Probably the best way to get in touch with us is just shoot me a message on Twitter or on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on both of those. I'm about to be a lot more active on both of those, so also, it could be a cool place to get some insights. And yeah, I'm pretty much an open book, so would love for anyone to reach out and happy to chat about anything that I'm interested in that you're also interested in or give advice or whatever I can do to help.

This has been fun. Thank you for spending the time and enjoy the rest of San Diego while you're here.

Yeah, thank you, guys.

It's going to be hot.

Appreciate all the recommendations.

All right, man. Appreciate you.

Cool. Take care, guys.

We're back.

We are back. Today we are talking to. No, this is an outro.

Not. It is an outro.

We're talking to Archet, Archit, Batlaw.

Dude, what do you think?

This is a good conversation. Like, he seems like just one of our buddies. I think you've had a conversation with him once already.

Indeed, that was confirmed.

That was my first time ever meeting him. And we just kind of. It felt like we had a conversation like two buddies that hadn't just seen.

Each other in a while, you know, and it's. It's too bad. Yeah, he's been in San Diego for a little bit, but just timing and good old lockdowns and whatnot have. Have prevented us from meeting up. But we got to do that sometime. Probably in Austin when he's back over there. But, yeah, I mean, that's what we were talking about afterwards. It was really cool because Arch has not been on other podcast. I think he said he's been on one. And so it was.

And we couldn't find it when we.

Were doing our research, but it made it really cool because we didn't know exactly where we're gonna go. I mean, we never know where these things are gonna go, which is a good thing. That's how we like it. It's conversation.

We have some ideas of where we'd like it to go, but a lot of times we've. While we're on the show, we find better places to go than what we originally intended, and we take it there.

That's usually a sign of a good episode.

Yeah, it's funny because isn't that kind of how it always works out? Is like, we'll go into it. All right, we're going to talk to this guy about Facebook ads, right? And then you get on an episode and you end up talking about, like, I don't know, startup culture or something.

Yeah.

And it turns into, like, this way more fascinating.

Fascinating conversation therapy or psychedelics or something. We've definitely done that too. Like, really off.

Like. Wait, what?

Huh? Yeah.

Like, when we had Mike Dillard on that just went in a completely different direction. 100%. Anyway, I digress.

Yes.

But yeah, it felt like a good buddy that we were just like, you know, totally. Like, I'd known him forever and we could chat about anything.

So another shout out to Sue Rice. You are a badass. Thank you so very much. If you don't know Sue Rice, go check out her episode. I don't know what number it is, but just type in Sue Rice either on our website in the search bar or whatever podcast app you're on.

You could probably even Google Sue Rice and we might show up.

So might be on the first page, because we are known to do that for most of our guests. So it's kind of cool. Little byproduct of doing some SEO and having a fun show. Yes. Google seems to love us so far. But, yeah, thank you, Google. And thank you, Sue.

Google doesn't get enough thanks.

No, I'm not thanking Google. They don't care. But I will thank sue because she's likely listening.

What if they rank this episode better just because of the amount of times I say Google, Google, we love you.

Love you, love you, Google, Google love. You got to do it in these weird, like, patterns. So the AI picks up like, oh, they are talking about Google love. Not loving to hate on Google or something like that.

If Google is automatically transcribing podcasts now so that they can index the audio content that's in the podcast, maybe it'll be like the Old west days where if we just keyword stuff.

I was just. But the fact that you just said keyword stuff now we're screwed. We're blacklisted.

Yeah, but I was saying it in reference to stuffing keywords into a blog post or something. Chicken.

A chicken?

Yeah. People stuff chickens. No, turkeys. They stuff turkeys.

I'm like, are we talking about a chicken? Like a taxidermy?

I guess people stuff.

Did you get your chicken stuffed? I used to own chickens. I would not want to stuff chicken in my.

Yeah, so Google, where you're not stuffing keywords into this. We are stuffing turkeys. But if we maybe say Google a.

Lot employees at Thanksgiving time.

Who are we kidding? Am I trying to rank for the word Google?

A very good point. Super ice. Super ice. Super ice. Super ice. Super ice. Superce. All right, Archetype.

Tongue twisters. Okay, it's the end of the day. Mouth can only move.

Our last recording of the day. And if you listen to our episode for a while, you could always probably tell our outros that are our final outros of the day.

This is the time where we're like, cool, let's wrap it up and go home. It's been a good one, but let's. Let's chat about some takeaways here. Yeah. With Archet. I mean, it's cool. Damn. Cool story. Really cool story. And that's. We highlighted a lot of it, but just. I think there's just a really cool way of. I like how he thinks through things, and you could tell how he thinks through things just looking at, like, you know, the fact that he's studying mental models and there's happiness and these, like, frameworks to follow. But then the fact that he's, you know, he got his dream job at Facebook and decided all these other things, you know, to start a flower business, but then quickly realized, this isn't how I want to. This isn't my goals. To scale this thing and work more.

Yeah.

You know, and do that whole thing. He had. He had a vision of more. So. Yeah.

Yeah. And I was just genuinely curious what it was like. This wasn't something we had planned on talking about, but I was just genuinely curious, like, what it was like to work at Facebook. You and I, like, we.

I liked your questioning. That was cool. It was interesting.

We went. You and I got the chance to go and hang out with some people at Google for a day, and they kind of gave us a tour around the Google campus. We got to eat lunch at Google, and we got.

We get kicked out of anywhere. We definitely went into a building that we were told not to go into.

We never got kicked out, but we definitely went places where I don't think we were supposed to be.

Yeah. There was at least one. And we were just trying to take a piss.

Yeah.

And I think we did have to sneak into a building because our concierge or whatever the hell person that.

The person that had the key card to get us into the doors.

He was like, our guy. You get, like, a little. Yeah. Someone to walk you around, and then after a while, they're just like, okay, I got to go back to work now. Don't. Don't tear up the place.

That was interesting.

The Internet is trusting you not to.

But we spent A day with those guys and I honestly can't remember their name.

It wasn't. It wasn't meant to be a long time. He was cool. Ever doing it. No, it was. It was one of my old clients.

Remember?

He hooked us up.

Oh, yeah. He made that connection. Yeah.

And I'm blanking on his name. Chatted with a while. Well, that's okay. Doubt he's listening.

Yeah. He's the son of the fox chaser guy.

Yes.

But I can't.

I really should think of this. Yeah. You guys have probably seen here. Well, you talked about some stuff. I'm going to look up while I.

Talk about some stuff.

I don't know what you're going to say. Fox chaser guy. Yeah. Netflix. Fox chaser farm. Geez. Why am I not. It's Xander.

Yes.

Xander Schultz.

There we go.

Yeah. My buddy Xander.

You just remembered it.

Good.

Good job remembering that just off the top of your head.

I did because. Well, actually, I didn't see his name. His dad's name is Dave Schultz. But yeah, totally tangent y. That's how we were able to get into Google.

And I brought that up because I thought it was interesting at Google. So I was curious what it looked like to be at Facebook there. I brought it back around full circle.

Because we totally saw everything at Google.

No, no.

All those doors that said do not enter. Even the employee. Like, most employees aren't able to go into most of the buildings. It seem like that they do have.

A pretty badass lunchroom. I could tell you that.

It was a huge lunchroom, but even more so, they had, like, food trucks over the whole property. Remember that? Yeah. And we tried to go get some food and they said no.

Yes.

Because we didn't have a cool goo.

We did bump into a security guard there, but he was more, like concerned. He was like, do you guys know where you're going? Are you lost? And he was just trying to direct us. He wasn't trying to, like, security, give us the boot.

We're supposed to be here. Yeah.

He didn't try to kick us out. He just. He literally tried to, like, give us directions.

Wow. That was our fun Google story.

Where are you going? We're trying to break into the server room. Can you point us?

Where is the servers? They're not in hot demand, are they?

It's my first day.

Yeah. I hear that's the first day of training. Yeah. The server room that holds the Internet together.

Okay.

Yeah.

But yeah, Facebook.

We're not. Okay, back to. I was talking about where I really appreciate how Archet thinks through these things and his mental models and the story and. Da, da, da. What do you got on your. You have a lot written down on your paper there, Matt. I do some takeaways.

Well, a lot of these are my. Are my questions that I was going to ask that I prepared before the thing. But one of the things that. There's a couple topics that I really, really liked, the kind of rabbit hole we went down. I really liked when he was making his predictions and he was talking about like, you know, where the puck is going. That's becoming a very overused analogy. I know how you say it, but that's basically what a prediction is.

Right?

It's kind of like so says Mr. Gretzky.

Mr. Gretzky. I think it was Abraham Lincoln.

Was it? Okay. He played a lot of hockey in his day.

He did.

He was a.

He's a big fan.

All right, well, fair. What do you got?

The Canucks.

Yeah.

Where are we going?

I just lost my train.

Where are we going with that, brother?

Oh, yeah. So he was talking about. He was talking about these sort of consolidations that are happening where, you know, Net, Netflix is getting into E commerce and Facebook is getting into E commerce. And now, as we know, Facebook is getting into like podcasting and they're getting into the social audio, like Clubhouse and they're. And you know, Amazon is getting into. Obviously Amazon got into media and started eating some of Netflix's lunch with Amazon.

Prime video and production, they acquired mgm. I mean, like, you see a roll up happening.

Yeah. It's just interesting how so many of these companies are going like, okay, what is this other big company doing that's working well for them? Let's just add that to our business. But like, there's four or five giant companies that are all kind of doing that right now.

Gafa.

Yep.

That Gaffa.

Yep, exactly.

Google, Amazon, Facebook and Apple.

That's it.

Or if you want to change the A's around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Gaffas.

You could switch the G and the F. It just sounds a little worse.

Yeah, yeah. It wouldn't work out so nice. Yeah.

But yeah, so I thought that was like a really fascinating topic. Like for me, the things that I get lit up about right now is trying to predict the future.

Well, dude, it's the freaking trends, man. It's like the platforms that he was talking about and the interesting way how that is, it's the fact that he thinks that products, brands and people like the followers, if you got those or at Least like one of them. But inherently it's probably gonna be multiple. Like, if you have a brand, you probably have people that are following you. It might not be a bunch, but at least he got. But like, that's way more powerful than trying to figure out some perfect Facebook ad strategy. Like, in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. The trends aren't really pointing that you need to be the best ad expert or the best copywriter. Great skills, obviously. But, like, to his point, you know, Arch, it was like, there's AI for all of this stuff and we use it.

Yeah. And I mean, like in Facebook right now, you could go in there and put no targeting in and essentially tell Facebook, find the audience that's going to.

Buy this stuff and what's to think that that's not going to just become way more predominant, like in a year, two years.

There's that already in there. Right now it's already got the optimization where you can throw in. You know, I think it's up to 10 different variations of ad copy and 10 different images and 10 different calls to action.

Go to conversion AI, load that puppy.

Up, you've got all of those variables and it's going to just sort of swap between them, like this image with this text and this headline, this image with this text, and it's going to try all of the variations. And then like you just said, you can go to Conversion AI. Conversion AI will literally write copy. It's only a matter of time before the GPT3, which is what I think. I can't. I think like conversion AI might be GPT2, I'm not 100%, but like GPT3, it's only a matter of time before either Facebook builds their own version of it or Facebook is tapping into that and just building the ads for you. So you like, like archit was saying, you plug in a URL to your website, you maybe grab one image to kind of, you know, feed it. To feed it. Like, you know, this is the kind of image we want. And then Google literally goes and makes 100 variations of ads for you, tests a whole bunch of targeting for you, split test variations of descriptions and images.

And headlines using data from other advertisers and as well to probably help your advertising campaign, because if you succeed, they succeed. And that's probably going to cost you a little bit more as a premium, I'm imagining. But maybe not. Maybe they'll try. That'll be the game.

Who cares what it costs?

That's if it works.

If they're using AI to figure out the exact right customer who's going to buy, putting the exact right copy in front of them so that they click over and they buy. I don't give a shit what it costs, as long as it costs less than what I'm making off of it.

Sure, yeah, it's profitable, man. But yeah, you're right. Like. Like, it's almost like if you're really thinking about. And we should all not talking to you, the user or user listener. Getting a little tired, y'. All. Or you're the user. Feeling a little ranty, though. But yeah, it's almost like we should probably check ourselves on the actions or the things that we're specializing in.

Yeah. Cause they. Yeah, well, he was even saying a lot of the things that people are specializing in right now are going to become commodities in the pretty near future.

He's highly skilled activities, not just like monotonous tasks or things that, like data entry, things that you would maybe outsource and hire someone without doing a lot of vetting. We're talking copywriting, media buying. There's so many things that AI or these systems or just some aggregator thing is going to do the work for you.

Even writing fictional stories is getting better and better from AI conversion.

AI wrote a great one about me and my dog. True story. I wrote one of those. I should read it sometime.

Let's do a podcast where you read the story and we talk about it.

It's a short story, so I got to build on it. Okay. It's one of those things where it's like, you can build it by, like, maybe chapter by chapter. We can go into it later. We got to use that thing more often. If you're thinking about conversion AI go to hustleandflowchart.com conversion yeah, I think that's right. It is, right? Hustleandflowchart.com Conversion that's what we keep mentioning. Go a little trial. It's badass, but, like, you can literally see what we're saying. There's all these really skilled things, creative ideas, persuasive, all this stuff that's now being written by just aggregating a bunch of data and then the AI figuring out where to specifically put it. And it's using the GPT2T or D.

GPT T. I wish I could tell you what it stood for. I actually don't know. Off the top of my head.

Barely know what I'm talking about, so. But yeah, I mean, like, it's just interesting to, like, really look hard at the shit that we're doing ourselves that's consuming our current time right now. And like, is that really where we should be putting all of our resources or even our mind, like our mental power? Yeah, because that's a huge load that we talked with Archit about too.

Yeah. No, I mean, I think anybody who's out there becoming a pro at building landing pages, who's becoming a pro at copywriting, who's becoming a pro at Facebook or Google Ads or SEO, I mean, I mean all of that stuff is going to be non human in the future. It's just going to be like. I mean, I guess SEO is probably a bad example because that's already all algorithmic, but.

Yeah, but it's a skilled thing though. I mean that's something where you're having to use your mind to find trends and patterns and write content around and then optimizations and then you have algorithms. Of course. But everything I just said there can be done 80 to 90 or more percent by a machine.

Yeah.

And then have a human maybe. Yeah. Shore up the rest of the 10%, maybe 5%, put a little human touch on there. It's not going to need a lot probably pretty soon and then boom, you're on your way.

Which brings me like around to I think a big main point from this episode. Brand is everything. Totally build the brand.

Yeah.

You know, grow the audience, build the brand.

Yeah.

Because that's what's going to matter in the future. You get to let, if you build a good brand, you get to leverage all this automation that's going to happen as opposed to be, as opposed to selling against it.

You know, yeah, go with the trends, go with the wave. But yeah, build the brand, have a cool product or something that you can get behind and, or maybe it's affiliate products, you know, whatever your product of choice or offer is and then have a fall and you know, pay attention to your following. Create a following of people and capture them somewhere using all sorts of platforms. I mean, I think that's the beauty is that if all these platforms are being built the way they are, where they're high engagement, they're kind of self sustained or contained things. Where there's monetization happening, there's growth abilities, there's streaming, you can keep engagement at a high level, Use all the platforms the best way you can, wherever your people are, but focus on the product your offers, your brand primarily and then your followers and you're freaking unstoppable. And I was even talking about this with Heather last night.

Heather's Joe's wife. For anybody wondering.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just now gonna roll with it. Do your research, people. Just kidding. But like, we were thinking about it. Cause she's teamed up with a YouTuber who. She just cracked 100,000 subscribers the other day. I was like, damn. But like. And I was thinking about the Mr. Beast Manager episode on Noah Kagan. What's his name? I don't know his name.

I don't know.

But Mr. Beast Manager, basically, he was saying a lot of the stuff we were quoting came from that episode. But he was like, yeah, the YouTubers, influencers on YouTube primarily are the new production homes, media companies. Not homes, production houses. And not the Brad Pitts and all that stuff. They might. Some of them might be. But at the end of the day, they're freaking.

Yeah.

They get all this stuff wrapped around. They're focused on. Oh, that's what I was. Sorry. Losing the train of thought. If you just roll this for like another 5, 10 years, like Archit said. And that's what that manager pretty much said as well. I don't think either of them were talking to each other, but it was the same time frame. It's like you start kind of build a timeline for yourself. And Heather and I were doing this the other night. I'm like, well, shit, in five years, okay. What can you potentially do with this growing audience on YouTube? And by the way, everyone can grow an audience on YouTube if you're focusing on it. Like, we are. We're growing. But I see, like stuff happening over there in our business. Like, just dedicate yourself for like, that run kind of like what Arjit said and then look at the quarters. But in the stance of like a year and a half in two years in. And this know. Okay, cool. Well, I'm headed the right direction. I'm kind of seeing a lot of momentum here. And just be patient with it. I think it's going to build into probably the most valuable thing you could focus on.

Yeah.

Specifically on YouTube. With leveraging the algorithm. That's not gonna go anywhere. Google. And then. And then knowing that if you got a good brand and you have followers that are growing there, you're keeping them engaged and you have a cool thing to talk about and offer to point them to. Done, son.

Done, son. Dig it.

Yeah. And then. Yeah. And then you put in some digital marketing skills of funnels, if you want, behind all that stuff. And then it's Happy Days, all the ninja tactics, that stuff.

Yeah.

So we're. Yeah, yeah. Ninjas.

Ninjas Cool. Hey, pull up a review real quick while I talk about flowchart group.com which is where you could grab the action guide for this episode. I just turned into my. My commercial voice.

You do that. So what you do is you turn into that and then you speed your.

So anyone listening at 2 or 3x, I don't know. If you had 3x, you might want to slow her down.

No, not you. Hit us, Matt. Go for it.

So if you go to Hustle and Flowchart. No, don't go there. Actually, yes, go there. But go to flowchartgroup.com and if you go to flowchartgroup.com you can join our Facebook group. And in the process of joining our Facebook group, you can enter your email address and we will send you the action guide to the most recent episode. You can find that at Flowchart Group.

That was beautiful, Matt. Don't ever do that again. All right, go to flowchartgroup.com I'm going to read a review in a second, actually, but I want to give a shout out to our friends over at Easy Webinar because they proudly sponsor this podcast for years now.

It feels like I'm assuming it's proudly. They keep doing it. It could be shamefully, but I think it's proudly.

I would hope so. I believe that we are still friends with all of them over there at the Easy Webinars. We don't talk as much as we should, but you know what works really well every damn day? Easy Webinar. So if you're thinking about, whoa, I just got a pop up that says how to sell your products, services and coaching 247 one simple webinar. So they're even giving you free workshops and all that stuff on how to leverage it.

Once you buy the webinar software, they're like, here, just do this.

Yep, pretty much. Come on. So they're giving you the recipes, the strategies and everything you need to do. If you've never done webinars or if you already are, optimize them. But how about you optimize them with the best damn SaaS product that exists for webinars, and that is Easy Webinar. You have to say it like that.

Easywebinar.com hustle.

But you know what? When you go join it because you will join it because why wouldn't you? If you're doing this kind of stuff, go to EasyWebinar.com hustle because you will get a fatty discount.

Patty discount. So go there. Not the main domain easywebinar.com hustle well.

You could go to the main domain if you want to pay more, or you can go to easywebinar.com hustle if you want to pay less for it.

Why would you ever do that?

Well, maybe they just want to support the platform.

Well, you know, Casey and the crew won't complain, but if you go to.

Easywebinar.Com hustle then Casey will know that we sent you, and that makes us feel good. We don't actually get a commission or.

Anything, but he is proudly supporting this via sponsorship. Thank you, Casey and team@easywebinar.com hustle all right, I have a couple of. Oh, this is cool. I see a lot of loves over here. I'm going to read the two love ones I see. So I'm looking at reviews on Apple, and hopefully my computer doesn't die 5%. We're good. It's one of them new MacBook M1.

I thought the thing was supposed to have a battery life of like 13 days or something.

Yeah, it's not that much, but it feels like it sometimes. I haven't charged it in a while, so it's kind of cool. First one. This is from JL Bulk Lee.

JL Bulkley. Good to hear from you, buddy.

I'm in love.

Maybe it's not a guy.

Okay, go ahead.

A gal can't be a buddy.

I guess a gal can be a buddy.

What's wrong with that?

I don't know. I guess I call Cora my daughter bud sometimes.

Yeah, she's a girl. She is. Yeah. All right. We squared that one up, huh?

Well, I appreciate you, J.L.

What'S this review.

Says I'm in love. Hey, now what five? I'm not gonna tell Heather this one.

You're leaving us hanging.

Yeah, well. Well, don't. This is. This might get a little written. We'll see how this goes. Just heard one episode, and I'm completely in love. Hands down, the best. This is legitimate, y'.

All.

I'm not. I'm not making this up, and I don't know who this person is. If you have a podcast listening addiction like me, you will not want to miss out on this one. That's cool.

Yeah, it is.

You're just staring at me creepily. I don't know what you're doing. That's just like.

I'm watching him read the. The thing, and he's very animated.

Where's the video? Damn it, man. This is on B roll. So. You know what? Beautiful is just to the right of it, it says, definitely one of my favorites from.

Caribbean Girls. F1234.

Caribbean Girls, F1234.

I feel like someone's making a fake review. I swear we didn't write the. Okay, did you write this one?

I did not. And why would I name myself Caribbean Girls?

This is too funny. Definitely one of my favorites.

What is this voice?

Having fun? I recently started listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast and I'm hooked. Joe and Matt are awesome. It says Matt and Joe. Everyone's dicks.

Everybody says Matt and Joe.

Matt and Joe are awesome hosts and they bring on so many amazing guests. The conversations are insightful and entertaining. Highly recommended.

Well, thanks. Caribbean Girls F. What was the rest of it?

1, 2, 3, 4.

1, 2, 3, 4.

I think I forgot the four last time. Why don't they just go 1, 2, 3. Hey, Caribbean girls. Thank you.

We appreciate you and anybody else listening to this. If you write a review on Apple.

We will hook you up.

We will at least read it on.

The air with a shout out on the podcast. You didn't let me complete my sentence.

I know. I knew where you were going, so I tried to cut you off.

I was going to say, Matt will give you a $20 bill. It's like from his wallet.

We complete each other's sandwiches.

I've been watching too much Frozen.

You've been watching Frozen?

Okay, that's a sign to go night night now.

Alrighty. Well, share this with a friend. Leave a review. If you're watching this over on YouTube, which you're not because this is only audio.

Go subscribe on Hustlerflowchart TV and watch it on YouTube as well. Leave a comment, let us know what you thought.

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Bye.

Thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a CliffsNotes version of every episode where you can go, go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com, find this episode that you just listened to and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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