Brian Kurtz - Now This Is How You Overdeliver

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flow chart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. Hello, Joe.

Hi there. How are you?

I'm doing good. How are you?

Freaking amazing. We just talked to a very generous man.

Very generous man who loves to over deliver.

That's not a hypey title because he lives up to it. I don't know. Thousands and thousands of fold, I would say, in many, many ways. And you can tell from just this conversation alone. Yeah, yeah. Brian Kurtz. Come on. Does he need an introduction?

Yes, he does.

Okay.

We introduce everybody.

That's right. That's what this is.

That'd just be kind of weird if he just jumped straight into it. Hey, Brian. And nobody had any context to who we were talking to.

We were like. And Brian Kurtzko.

So Brian, he's the founder of Titans Marketing. He worked for Boardroom. We actually dove pretty deep into, like, some of the things that they did. I think one of my favorite moments of this podcast, when he started talking about all the different things that they did at Boardroom to turn boardroom into 150 plus million dollar company. And some of the tactics they used were pretty brilliant. And I'm sitting here going, man, they did these tactics 10 years ago, and I'm just now hearing about these. What the heck?

Yeah, yeah. And we're not gonna. We'll just let you divulge in the interview when we get there, because, yeah, Brian is just. He'll go deep and you know his book Over Deliver. So that's why we're saying Over Deliver so much. If you didn't know. He has a new book that just came out, and it is definitely a must have, and you'll hear it in the episode. But if you go to overdeliverbook.com the craziest part is when you get the book, you get, like, literally, I don't know, hundreds of hours of content, maybe more. And then all these swipe files, all from the best of the best of the best out there. All the names, you know, Jay Abraham, Dan Kennedy, there's Dan Sullivan, Harry Marshall. Harry. There's just so many names and people who contributed with Brian over the years, vice versa. And Brian's basically bringing it all out here.

Yeah. One of the amazing things about Brian is Brian has had the. The opportunity to work with some of the greatest marketers that have ever lived. And. And some of a lot of them were his mentors. And. And we talk about that, and we talk about what what he's learned from some of these guys and, and some of the, the, the, the sort of things that you can apply in your business that he's learned from a lot of these guys. And we go, we go pretty deep down the rabbit hole with him. So it's a, it's a fun interview, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna keep on pumping it up. I think we should just jump over to it.

Yeah, so we'll do that. And of course, we're always taking notes for you at, @hustleandfluechart.com Comp C O M P. So you'll get the free, free notes for this episode if you're quick and you'll want them because, I mean, why not Kurtz? And he's just going crazy in a good way. So go get that hustonflowchart.com comp and we also got our best SEO tool, our favorite, our favorite Ahrefs.

It's actually the only SEO tool we really use.

That is true. We've canceled all others. Yeah. And that's true.

And it's spelled A H R E F S. It's called Ahrefs and it is an amazing SEO tool that we use pretty much on the daily. I think at least one of us.

Is in there every day or at least someone on our team. Yeah, I mean we're all in it, tapped in there somewhere. And even we have a guy, Carl, who we partnered up with on a different business and he loves it and he's like an SEO freaking genius master. And dude, that's his tool.

He also offered to make some videos on how he uses agedrefs for our members. So that'll be cool to see when those come around.

That might be live, might be not by the time this episode goes live.

I don't know.

But we love ahrefs. There's so many ways we use it. If you listen back to some of our last handful of episodes, we, we actually break down some of the tactics that we use in some of our intros of each episode of how we're actually using Ahrefs in our business. But you know, you can do a full website audit. You can look at your competitors websites and see what their backlink profile looks like. You can look at what low hanging fruit keywords that you're already ranking for. That would be pretty easy to get to the top of Google. I mean there's just so many ways that you can use Ahrefs and we're using all of them. So you should too.

Yes, you should. It's like cheat codes for business.

Cheat code.

Oh, yeah.

That was your last analogy, was? You called it Game Genie.

Game Genie, man. It's from Nintendo days.

And Ahrefs, they've got a seven day, $7 trial. So for a buck a day, you can go in there and get a feel for it, and I guarantee you're gonna love it. But get in there for seven days for seven bucks, you really got nothing to lose other than seven bucks.

And go. Ahrefs.com youm can go get it there. And you can also check out their blog has a bunch of tutorials and YouTube channels. So they basically give a bunch of stuff away. They have even training. They had courses at one time. I don't know if that's still there, but either way, they give a lot of that stuff away. So just check it out. If you're fishing for ideas on how to use this thing, they got your back.

Yeah. So not only is it an amazing tool to do your own SEO, they're gonna actually teach you how to do SEO as well. Amazing resource, amazing tool. That's ahrefs.com. let's go talk to Brian Kurtz.

Hey, Brian. Welcome to the show.

Oh, I'm happy to be here, guys. Looking forward to this one. Because I think you guys are maybe the most prepared I've ever seen for one of my podcasts. You flash like two pages of questions and I'm like, oh.

You didn't see.

The other pages that we have written down?

Oh, no, no. The funny thing is we typically, we write up like, all sorts of questions and topics and things to go into, and typically we get to like two or three of them. That's how kind of deep we go.

Yeah, that's kind of how it goes with me. I just, you know, once I start talking, I. I have a hard time stopping, so you can cut me off anytime.

Oh, man, that's. That's what we live for, is just good, great conversation. You know, the whole interview thing, that gets boring for us.

I love. I love podcasts. It's a great. You know, I don't do one myself, but I've been on so many, and it's like, you know, speaking of, you know, one of the things in my book about list building, it's actually one of the, you know, it's a slow build through through podcasts, but it's a great build because people have to listen to you and either they get sick of you or they like you.

And if they like, that's true.

That's the kind of person you want on your list.

So, you know, and it speaks to a lot of what you write about and over deliver and just all of your work in general is, it's that bond, it's the, you know, like you talk about customer service, for instance, about being like such a good brand built relationship builder and podcasting, that's what we're noticing is the engagement rates like just through the roof. And it's such an intimate type of media.

Yeah, this is not anecdotal, this is real. And I find it very, very interesting that I've gone on a lot of podcasts to promote my book and I gave away, we'll talk about the bonuses that I have. But.

The people that opt in are so, you know, they're really interested in either the book or something I said. And so that's really gratifying. And then, you know, I've been watching my list grow, you know, steadily, but not huge numbers. And as it's grown, my open rates have gone up. And you know, that that's counterintuitive when you're doing like a big list build or you're adding names from Facebook or you're, you know, building your list in other ways that are not as, you know, target not as pinpointed to a podcast and content. And it's interesting because it's like, you know, quality over quantity. And that's the way I like it. And it's been a really, really great list builder. But you got to do a lot of them, you know, because, you know, any one podcast, you know, one podcast will get you six people and one will get you 12 and one will get you 20. But then again, I'm not, you know, I'm not really selling a lot. I'm giving mostly content. So it's a really, really gratifying way to build my list and I really appreciate you guys having me.

And we find that listeners of podcasts are, you know, the absolute best customers, the best leads, the best, you know, the best everything along the business spectrum because it's such an intimate medium and we have people that tune in and listen to us for an hour at a time twice a week. I mean, you can't get better prospects in your business than that.

And people are on the move and it's very convenient. Really. Now that we said podcasts are good, let's do it.

Exactly. Well, for the handful of folks, not that many that don't know you, you have a very interesting story. Direct marketing all the way but you're just so tapped in with some of the best experts out there in marketing. You have books and you do a lot of speeches and just so much content, and you literally over deliver in so many ways. That's why it's perfect for the podcast here. Give us a little backstory and we'll touch on the umpiring as part of that story as well.

I'll give you 40, 40 years in three minutes.

Perfect.

I started, you know, Boardroom was my second job out of college. I went there thinking, you know, thinking I'd end up being a writer, an editor, or something like that. But the job I got was in list management. And for those of you who don't know what list management is, it's, you know, basically Boardroom has a newsletter that doesn't take advertising. So I was representing our lists in the marketplace. They were great lists. I mean, everybody in direct mail at the time would use them. So I got exposure to all of these incredible mailers all over the place. Not just magazines and newsletters, but catalogs and fundraisers. So I got an incredible.

Indoctrination to the direct marketing industry through our lists. And at the same time, Boardroom had.

Had the best consultants and copywriters and all of that. So as my as. As I went on in the list management area, I started getting involved in marketing, and I had access to these amazing consultants. Now, most of them were older. I always say that too many of my mentors are dead because, you know, when you are 20 and 30 years old and all of your consultants and copywriters, and a lot of them are in their 60s and 70s, you know, when you're 60 and I'm 60 now, not a lot of them are around now. A lot of them are still around, thank goodness. But I think that that was an incredible. I mean, I just. I'm fortunate to be in an entrepreneurial company. I didn't have to start it. I became an equity partner. So I did have a lot of the responsibilities, but I didn't have to do the bootstrap thing. And then I just. I was. I was a business grower. So Boardroom, you know, during my time there, from 1981 to 2015, we went from, you know, 5 million or $10 million to 157 million, then back down again. But it was a height of 200, 157 million in 2005. And it was all direct marketing. And so the early part of my career was, you know, there was no Internet, so it was all, like, very finite Media. It was direct mail, it was tv, radio, print, but just the inserts, just the basic media that you could get. It was a finite group. And as I went through my career and the Internet came about and we started getting into E newsletters, we started getting into, you know, online search, we got into a lot of different things, I realized that, you know, that the Internet was this incredible direct marketing medium that I had to learn about. Now, a lot of the people that I grew up with, they didn't feel that way. Some did, but most either stayed in their niche of direct mail and print or they retired or they got out of the business or whatever because it was kind of intimidating. Now it was intimidating to me too. But what I did was I put myself in places where there was. I joined mastermind groups, I went to events of online marketing. So I got myself exposed. I couldn't become an expert right away, but I got myself exposed to all of it and then was able to bring that back to my company. And then after I left Boardroom, and that's the end of the career at this point, or the beginning of a new career, I went and formed Titans Marketing. After I did an event at Boardroom that was the Titans of direct response. It was a tribute event to Marty Edelston, the founder of Boardroom who had passed away in 2013. And then I did that event. And then after the event I said, you know what, I think it's time to teach this stuff. So I had 40 years experience. I went out and I formed a couple of mastermind groups. I got the, I got the rights to Gene Schwartz's books because he was a good friend of mine and his wife trusted me with them. I've done, you know, swipe files of Bill, Jamie and now Jim Rutz. So I basically created a lot of educational materials and two mastermind groups, soon to be three. And so the difference. So the whole career, I think I did a little more than three minutes. But the whole career was, the first 34 years was business to consumer marketing in the millions, giving them health and finance and all that great information through our newsletters and books and helping millions of people. And then my new career is actually still helping even maybe more millions of people because my Mastermind members and Masterclass members are major direct marketers, multi channel who I am, giving them guest speakers, education, all sorts of information so that they can take their businesses and go forth and multiply into their universes of, you know, of theirs. And so it's a B2B market for various other people to go do it. And so I'm still doing the same, but I'm.

I don't need, you know, 9 million names. I only need, you know, 50 people.

Sure.

And then the 12,000 on my list or something like that. And it's. It's very, very gratifying. It's, It's. It's been a great ride. And. And along the way, you know, you say, I know all these people. It's not, you know, it's not magic if you work for 40 years and pay attention and always give 100 0, always, you know, make sure that, you know, I contribute to someone first before I ask them for anything, if I ever ask them for anything. And that kind of philosophy has helped me get the best guest speakers for my mastermind. Got the, you know, if you saw the testimonials from my book, I got, you know, the best of the best to write something nice, even though even if they hated the book, they probably would have wrote something else. So I think it's just, you know, without. I have to. I didn't know what I was doing completely. But now that I look back on my 40 years and looking ahead, I realized that I've put myself in a position to really.

Take the next level and use all of that to continue to teach and continue to share. So that's it in a nutshell. If you have any questions off that, I'd be glad to answer them.

Yeah. That's awesome. Now, I'm curious. When you were at Boardroom, you said that it got up over 150 million during the time that you were there. Are there any, like, sort of specific factors that maybe you could pinpoint were some of the reasons it got that large?

Yeah, there are a few. I mean, there are many. But one was. I mean, at the base level, in the micro, it was indirect mail. It was our paying attention to lists. So we were. I mean, there was no direct marketer in the 80s and 90s who spent more time on lists than we did. And so I would. And I was the list manager at the beginning, so I was. I was making exchange agreements with other mailers so I could mail more names. And the idea was to mail more names to get our database bigger. And then everything grew from there.

So that was one big thing. Another thing was. And I tell this story in my book about. I call it, you know, going around. The story is going around Barnes and Noble with a hand truck. It was basically creating. After we created a bunch of books that were the greatest hits of Our newsletters and that we were running out of content. I went out and bought the direct mail rights to various books and I tell the whole story, so I won't go into the detail, but that was a big, big thing for us because it enabled us to create a book operation that, you know, we, you know, the books in Barnes and Noble that would be good for our list that were selling in Barnes and Noble at, you know, with dust on them to two or three books a day, two or three books a year. To us, that was, you know, we took that book, we created a hardcover version from a soft cover version, we added premiums, we created a major direct mail piece. And those books, you know, could sell hundreds of thousands of copies. And I pay a royalty to the publisher. And that was a great way to find products. So it was a way to buy as opposed to make our product. And that was a big step, too.

That's so smart. Yeah. Is leveraging your help?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, other people were doing it. I put our own spin on it with premiums and hardcover and all of that. But it was not invented by me, believe me. But we really went crazy with it. And then another one, I mean, there's a lot. But the other big one, I mean, that got us to, you know, we'll say 70 million, $80 million. And then the big one, the big Kahuna was in 2005, getting into the infomercial business. So we got into TV. I took a health book that was one successful in direct mail. We created three infomercials or, you know. Yeah, three infomercials for that, plus an infomercial for another book. And it went through the roof. We probably between that and then going back, we went to infomercial. Then we went. This is all in my book too. We went back to creating another direct mail piece off the infomercial. So that resurrected the direct mail and. And then we went online with it with search. And that whole franchise was between 200 and 300 million alone over three years. So that added another close to 100 million a year. And that got us to 157 million in 2005. So there was a lot of. But there were a lot of other things that are in my book about. We created a bogey, which was something where Dick Benson, who was one of my consultants in direct mail, and he wrote, in fact, his book is one of the bonuses on my over deliver book.com site. And he taught us the bogey, which was basically, how much can you lose in year one and make it back in the future. And the future could be anything. The future could be a year and six months. The future could be year, a year and a year. So on the renewal, the future could be two years. And so we started on a bogey. We had no bogey at the beginning because we didn't have any cash. So we had to make money on the first year. Once we accumulated some cash, we decided that we want, and this is all in my book too, but we decided to.

How much can we lose in year one based on the renewal rates and list rental income and all the back end products. Can we lose in year one but break even by the beginning of year two? And that became our bogey. And then we were able to mail a lot more names because you can lose money in year one, which is a basic thing that most good marketers in the digital space today do if they can calculate.

That one year renewal and cross sell and upsell. And then of course, when we had a lot of cash, we went out two years and even three years. So we made the bogey for Bottom Line Personal, our major newsletter, a three year bogey, which helped us get to mail lists, got us a lot more names, and we had it, we could, we could wait to make money on those. And then we had those names to mail for our books and our other newsletters at a much more conservative bogey. And that was a, it kind of all kind of fed on itself. So that's a lot of, that's a lot to answer your question. But there was a lot of things that went into it now. There were tons of mistakes. You know, we made the mistake of, you know, going a little too far out with the bogey on bottom Line Personal. We wanted to get to a million subscribers. But you can't just say, I want to get to a million subscribers and not pay attention to your numbers. And so we got ahead of ourselves. We kind of, you know, didn't. We got, we lost some. We were waiting too long to break even, which kind of screwed up some other things. So then we pulled back and we said, you know, we don't have to be at a million subscribers. Half a million is good enough. And that was a big, big step that we did. In the case of infomercials. We made mistakes where, you know, we were told that infomercials you could make, you know, that that 1 out of 20 infomercials would work. And it was a very expensive proposition because you had to pay for the production, which was 150,000 minimum. And the media was nothing. You spent 20,000 in media to find out if it worked. And if it didn't work, you're out almost $200,000 with nothing to show for it. Whereas indirect mail, you could test and retest. So in the infomercial business, we got spoiled because three of our first four infomercials or four of our first five worked. So now we think we have the magic formula. And then I think our next nine infomercials failed.

Oh, man.

And so we learned a lesson, you know, don't read your press clippings, don't get ahead of yourself too much. But I mean, the fact is $200 million can pay for $500,000 of, of.

Failures, but we didn't expect to lose on nine in a row. And so, you know, we had, we've had some, you know, there was some ups and downs and I didn't want to make it sound like everything we did turned to gold, but we had some big, big things like the books, the bogey, the.

Ability to test different packages, the different lists, and then the infomercial, which probably contributed to everything that I did there.

Yeah, no, I love that. I love that whole concept and the fact that you're admitting it wasn't all just roses and unicorns jumping around.

And in fact, one of the things I regret is that we were so good at direct mail. And when the Internet became popular, we were slow initially to get on the Internet. And that's when I started joining Mastermind groups and finding out. And then when I left Boardroom, even though my Mastermind groups are multi channel direct marketing, it's not offline, it's not online, it's both. And that is the key, I think that.

And over all of that, online, offline, online, you know, you go back and forth, you toggle between the two. You go to audiences that want to be reached in different mediums. And so I do all of that. But I think that going to the fundamentals of Direct Response marketing, and I think chapter two of my book is.

The Importance of Original Source. And it's not for nostalgia, but it's that the original source. And then chapter three is How Paying Postage Made Me a Better Marketer, which basically talks about the disciplines of direct mail and how that applies to digital today. That set me up to do chapters four, five and six, which are lists, offer and creative, because I felt that if you have the fundamentals, how those fundamentals apply to everything, that's state of the art today, that's Kind of my. My premise that I'm sort of a bridge between those two. And I'm still learning on the digital. I know the offline pretty well, and it's been a. It's been a lot of fun. And, you know, when advertising opportunities are infinite, you've got a lot of room to play. And, you know, you don't want to go after everything. Everything looks like a shiny object, but you don't want to go after every, you know, after every shining star. But you can, you can be in certain segments of the business, be in four or five or six mediums and make it look like you're everywhere, even though you're only using four or five or six.

Sure. Yeah. And that's the exact kind of approach we take. And even with the offline aspect, like we were telling you, you know, these podcast interviews actually turn into physical mail. So I love that. Dipping our toe every single month into that. And yeah, we love it, too. And you mentioned e. Newsletters compared to physical.

What's your take in terms of the differences between the two? How they both have. Because they both definitely have a different psychological element to them. The physical. Yeah, go into that.

I'll say this. So I do believe that, you know, email, whether, you know, there's, you know, with Instagram and Facebook and everything else, I still believe that email is still the killer app. It's still, you know, the one medium where if I could get all my Facebook followers onto my email list, that's where I prefer to have them, because then I've got a strategy for romancing them, so to speak, you know, giving them content on a regular basis, not selling them all the time. I don't do affiliates. So for me, getting. And even if I did do affiliates, it would matter because getting them on my email list is a. Is a very controlled universe. And you can control all of the messaging to that. And, you know, getting your open rates up is a challenge, but it's a challenge worth taking. But on the other hand, you know, complementing that with physical product is always a good idea. Like, I'm gonna. My third mastermind group is going to be all virtual, no live events. So I'm going to go monthly. I'll have a call once a month, you know, two, three hours, hot seats, you know, ask me anything, all sorts of stuff. But I'm gonna. I was gonna do a print newsletter once a month with a single topic, and I realized now, you know what I think I'll do. And again, this is just a variation on the Theme. But I'm gonna send out like in a plastic case once a month, a USB drive with like a presentation from at one of my events, whether it's Dan Kennedy, Jay Abraham, Perry Marshall, I mean, all the people that have spoken at my events the last five years and give them one of those a month too. So they've got this piece of content and this is not going to be that expensive. So a piece of content on a USB drive and my once a month call, that's a lot. You know, you realize that's a lot of content. And I think if I made the once a month content a transcript that doesn't have the same.

Value as the plastic case, usb or if I wanted to do a print newsletter. So I think print and direct mail and all of that may not be the killer app anymore because of the cost for front end.

Marketing. But it's an amazing way to use the back end because, you know, whether you're 20, 30, 40, and certainly if you're 50, you know, the least crowded inbox is the one you grew up with. And so why not compliment? Now there are people that, I guess that don't check their physical mail, but odds are, you know, I always do this when I go into a new client where I'm sitting around a table and we're talking about, you know, brainstorming stuff and I try to go and I look around the table and look for the youngest person and I say, you know, and I get a little wise assy, but I say, you know, do you know what a mailbox is? And you know, invariably they say yes. And now they don't like me anymore, but it's okay. And then I say, and you know, do you check it like what, once a week? Once every two weeks? No, I check it every day, you know, and then I ask, so let me ask you a hypothetical. You're on your computer, in your office, in the house, you're typing away doing emails and you want to go out and check the mail. You go out and check the mail and in the mail is a bunch of different formats of things. And then there's this big lumpy package that's hand addressed to you. Will you open that in the next hour, two hours after you go back and do some emails? And you know, I was, I was setting, setting her up to tell me, you know, or him to set, setting her up to say, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna mail the personalized, you know, lumpy package first. And whether it was lumpy or not, it's still something that is so different than what they're looking at all day that the, just the differentiation makes it good. So it's a long winded answer. To say you using.

The print newsletter to complement the podcast to complement any emails you do is a great strategy. It's O2O2O online to offline to online. And of course there may be people on your list that say you may want to ask them one day either in email or in the print. You ask them in both places, you know, do you want to get this? You know, and so if they say no, then, you know, you can save some postage. But I don't think you know, anybody who's a fan of yours, who's listening to your podcasts, who's following your email, will not want the newsletter. The print newsletter. And then taking it one step further.

Guys like Doberman Dan and Ben Settle. They have, you know, a paid newsletter model, so they do emails and they do all sorts of stuff. But their basic subscription offer is $97 a month for an amazing newsletter that's all content. And then they supplement it with emails in between. And you know, if they didn't have the print newsletter, I don't think they can get $97 a month for what they're doing. Otherwise.

Yeah, yeah, we've inter boot viewed both those guys. It was actually Doberman Dan who inspired us to restart our newsletter. We did a newsletter for a couple of years a few years ago, took a break for a couple of years, had Doberman Dan on, talked to him, got inspired and went, okay, let's fire up this newsletter again.

It's true.

Yeah, he's, you know, yeah, I mean, I, I love those guys because they, I mean they, those two in particular, but there's a lot of other people out there that I gravitate to as that would be considered online marketers. But, you know, why do you want to be called an online marketer? I mean, that's like, you don't want to define yourself by a channel. You're a direct marketer who uses mostly online. Okay, that's fine. Leave yourself open to use other media offline. That will really help you a lot. And I just think that.

You talk to even some of the most prolific online marketers and, and even if they don't do anything online, really, like Jeff Walker and Frank Kern, you know, I know them and they both wrote testimonials to my book. And if you talk to them, you know, they'll tell you everything they do is direct Marketing, they just, they don't have, you know, maybe the patience for offline. And they're doing so well online that. But, but they're doing a lot of different things online. They're not just doing email, they're doing webinars, they're doing, you know, courses. They're doing all sorts of stuff. And you know, then you have the guys who are online marketers who, you know, like Dean Graziosi, who will send you a whole box, you know, a welcome box with, with his, with his offer or, you know, there's a lot of people that do that.

Sure.

And that's a wonderful thing to do when you're onboarding and especially if it's high ticket. I mean, you know, you have a lot of money to play with and you want to make sure that you get the best customers wedded to you at the highest level. And I don't know of a better way to do that than with a shock and awe package or a lumpy mail package or a free book in a FedEx envelope. I mean, you know, direct mail is all shapes and sizes. It could be, you know, 2 million name mailing, or it can be a mailing to your 50Best customers with your book and a note and an offer for something. So there is just a tremendous amount of opportunity in offline and online together. And that's, you know, if you want to be 90% online, I have no problem with that. But you want to think about some of these media that could really help, you know, kind of secure the relationship, especially when you're ascending people, you know, in an ascension program.

Yeah. And I love that. And Matt and I are very fortunate to start our marketing around the Dan Kennedys of the world and that kind of thinking. And there were monthly groups that we always attended here in San Diego. It was one of their chapters here, the local chapters. And that was. We got first introduced to lumpy mail and the shock and awe boxes and all that. And I know a lot of folks nowadays are just, you know, and a lot of folks listening are just purely grew up with the digital marketing product launch everything online. So I love the fact that we're talking about bridging that gap, the ooooo concept.

It's important to say that it's not an or, it's an and.

As long as you think of it that way. We're not saying if you're 100% online to now go 100% offline or even 50% offline or even maybe 20% offline, but there Are opportunities within your list to segment people who are your VIPs who can get something in the mail. So it's a powerful, powerful way to do it.

Before we jumped on the call, you mentioned the topic of world class creatives and that being such an important factor in businesses. I'm curious if we can maybe switch into that gear and talk about that for a minute.

Yeah, let me. I'll set it up by saying in my book, in the chapter on lists, I talk about the 40, 40, 20 rule that you know. And again, it's not precise and it's not exact, but if you look, the 40, 40, 20 rule is not a bad rule which says that the success of a direct marketing campaign is based on 40% list, 40% offer and 20% creative. Now that's not saying that the creative is half as important as the offer or the list. What it is saying is that you could have world class creative from the best copywriter and if it goes to the wrong list or a not targeted list, or doesn't really have an offer to it, but it's just great copy, you're going to get no sales, but reverse it. And this is what a lot of digital marketers tend to do, or at least beginning digital marketers and is that they have a great list because they do an affiliate. They find a perfect list for their offer that's just a perfect fit. They come up with a great offer to go with that list and they, you know, the creative can be really mediocre and you're going to make some sales, you know, you're not going to be devoid of sales. Now the trick is to, you know, once you've got, you know, your list dialed in, your offer dialed in is to pay more attention to the creative. Because I always say the creative is the least important element of your promotion until it's not. And when it's not is when you have the list and the offer dialed in. I think the creative is the most important because that's the one that when during my whole career, when I wanted to get a breakthrough, I knew the list that worked. I knew the offers that worked. If I wanted to get an offer that was something that was going to beat the control by 20, 30, 40%, it was always a new creative package from a different copywriter. So without going deep into copywriting, and I have a lot of that in my book, but I do explore this and I changed the 40, 40, 20 rule to 41, 39, 20 because 41% should be your list. Get the List dialed in. And that's why I think it's not a bad thing if you're starting your business to use affiliates. You don't have to. You are paying for the list because you're giving 50% of your revenues, but you're really.

At least basically giving up some revenue or some profit to get into the market to start selling your product to see if it works to particular affiliate. But like anything else, the most dangerous number in business is one.

That's right. Dan Kennedy said it best.

One medium. Yeah. I mean, that's a. Dan Kennedy.

Yeah.

And so one medium like one, you know, just affiliate marketing. If you're 100% there and your affiliates dry up or you make one, you piss one off and the word gets around and you don't have affiliates anymore, where are you? Just like if Facebook shuts you down or Google shuts you down. So, you know, that's why you have to be diversified. But it is an interesting way to start because you get the list dialed in much better. And once you don't have to worry about the list so much, but then you can. That's why you want to want to spend a lot of time writing your swipes for the affiliate so that if they're not going to write it, you'll write it and you'll have much better creative, which will make the affiliate program do that. Much better.

That's right.

So that's kind of the quick down and dirty. But I have a lot on copywriting in my book that I go into in depth.

Oh, yeah. And then your other book, even we haven't even mentioned this yet. The Advertising Solution with Craig Simpson, who's been on the show as well, is absolutely amazing. And that's just pulling wisdom from all these previous copywriters before our time and all these folks that you've connected with over the years. And you know, Matt, actually.

Well, I didn't really know Claude Hopkins.

Yeah, you didn't know him. That's true.

I actually do have a stack of book in my laps right now, including the Advertising Solution Over Deliver and Breakthrough Advertising with the Afterward by Brian Kurtz.

Well, I want to talk about a minute. I'll talk about an advertising solution. I'll just say that the six guys that we profiled in that book, Craig and I, you know, it was, you know, Hopkins.

Caples.

Halbert, Schwartz, and Schwartz wrote Bake Through Advertising. Collier and. And who was the six?

Ogilvy.

Ogilvy.

David Ogilvy.

Yeah.

Oh, God, I don't know.

I forgot Anyway, I've got it in front of me. It's Robert Collier, Claude Hopkins, John Caples. Yeah, all Govy Ogilvy, Gary Halbert and Eugene Schwartz.

There you go.

So interestingly, they all wrote copy. They weren't all copywriters, but they all wrote copy. And if you look at the. I had quotes in that book, and I have some in my book too, that if all of those copywriters, like Gary Halbert especially, he wanted him to talk about copy, he'd be talking about lists. He'd be saying, the people aren't looking for.

A brilliant burger, they're looking for a hungry audience. And, you know, the starving audience, the starving crowd. And so they knew that if their client had the list dialed in that they'd be able to write better copy too. So that was a big lesson. And as far as Gene Schwartz goes, you know, he wrote Breakthrough Advertising, also wrote the Brilliance Breakthrough. I sell them both. I have exclusive rights to both of them. And they. I mean, Breakthrough Advertising is a book, you know, that's not just about creative and copy. It's really about human behavior.

Brilliance Breakthrough is about how Gene wrote and how to find the precise words. And there's a workbook that comes with that. But Breakthrough Advertising is just a brilliant, brilliant book. But again, you know, a copywriter is, you know, they're great writers and they have. The best copywriters I ever met are. In fact, I have this in my book. I have the seven characteristics that are that every great copywriter I ever work with has. But they still have to have that underlying.

Writing ability. But they also need hunger. They also need curiosity. They also need passion. They also need to understand lists and offers, you know, direct marketing principles. So it's. Copywriting is not a commodity by any means.

Yeah, that's one of those things that don't worry about AI taking that out because that's a total creative and. And like you said, just curiosity, you know, of the learning and asking questions of everything.

Yeah. What I mean, I think some of the best copywriters I ever met, they were amazing interviewers. Like, they knew, like, you know, you gave them a book to write a package for and they'd look at it and they'd say, I can write for this. But now what's not in the book that you think should have been in the book and you start finding. This happened to me. I have this story in my book that Paris Lampropolis, a great copywriter, I wanted him to write a package for one of my naturopathic newsletter with A guru. And I gave him the past issues. I gave him the past packages. And he said, you know, I don't think I could write for this. There's nothing too cutting edge. There's nothing that's new in this. And I said, well, why don't you talk to our guru, Mark Stengler, and ask him, you know, some things, and maybe you'll find some stuff. And lo and behold, he started finding out that a lot of the stuff that Mark would submit to our editors was nixed. Not because. And maybe for good reason, because they couldn't get the backup or we couldn't find out how to back it up. But then he said, so Paris went back to our editors and say, I love this piece. It's cutting edge. It's something that you rejected. Because he couldn't back it up. Can you maybe go find a study that backs it up so I can use it? And we didn't save everything, but we basically went to the cutting room floor and found a lot of stuff that we could resurrect into the package, and he wrote a control for that. So I think that what's not in the package is a question that a lot of copywriters ask. And that ties into what you said about insatiable curiosity and being able to interview the client.

Yeah, it's fascinating. And that's where. Yeah, it's curiosity in general. I mean, that's just where any amazing things can. Brilliant ideas can come from. And with the audience. That's what I love is. And we've been hearing this from so many folks on our podcast, mentor of ours, Roland Frazier, we're in a mastermind as well with him. And it all starts with the audience. And like you said, it's the list, same idea. And from there, the offers can then transpire, and they could be other people's offers or your own. And then there's always that creative element as well, but that audience, it's so valuable.

And then figuring out I didn't invent that. That list was the most important.

Oh, yeah.

You know, when I went down, I went down a rabbit hole on the Internet looking for, like, stuff that, you know about the 40, 40, 20 rule. And I found some stuff that was interesting, but, you know, I was able to. I don't know if I put it in my book or not, but then I did put this in my book. I found an article by some guy who said the 40, 4020 rule is dead, and it's now the 25, 25, 25, 25. Rule. And I'm thinking, God, what could that be? So I went there and he said, the 25, 25, 2525 rule is 25% less, 25% offer and 25% technology. And I gotta tell you, I almost threw up in my mouth because it's not that technology isn't important. It's super important.

But, God, you know, it's like.

It'S so.

It just doesn't make sense because.

I'm trying to find the quote in my book now where I can find. Let me see if I can find it. Hold on.

Sure.

It's from Bill Bernbach who was. Oh, here it is. Is from Bill Bernback who said, never adapt your technique to the idea. Adapt your idea to the technique. So that. What that means is if you want to, you know, Facebook is the biggest audience. So of course, you know, you could say, I want to be on Facebook. But that's not the starting point. The starting point is to get a list offer creative. Or at least maybe if you're, if you think your list is Facebook, get an offer in creative that works around it, and then you go after Facebook because you want to adapt your idea to the technique. And the technique here would be the technology. If it's, say if it's a launch, you know, how do you. If you can adapt? I mean, maybe, maybe it's direct mail that you want to adapt it to. But it's. It's so important to start with the big idea. I mean, Todd Brown talks about this all the time, the big idea. And if you've got the big idea, you work your way through it. But you don't start with technology. I mean, that's a means, that's a tactic, but it's important. But it's not equal to list offering creative.

Well, and it seems like it diminishes the value of relationships as well. Whereas everything else, the 40, 40, 20, or even the 41, 39, 20 rules, it's very relationship focused. Whereas technology definitely has an element of that, but I would not think it's equal to those parts.

Yeah, it's well put.

Yeah, yeah, Love it.

Now, I'm curious, how often do you personally spend these days writing creatives and writing sales letters and direct mail pieces and things like that?

Oh, zero, I don't. You know, I once wrote a blog post saying I'm a copywriter wannabe.

But I'll tell you what I do. I do write, but I'm writing my blog, writing articles, doing speeches and keynotes and things like that. Because that's the one thing I mean, when I said I'm a copywriter wannabe, I got one of my subscribers, a couple subscribers kind of accused me of, you know, I was just, you know, I was, I was what they said. I mean, they felt I was being deceptive, that I was really a copywriter. And I had all these techniques in my blog about, you know, how to sell and whatever, and I didn't even think about that. But I do know, you know, how to write. But I tell you, the one thing I can't do and I won't do because there are so many people that do it better is I can't write like a soup to nuts package for a product. I can work with somebody who has a package or has something that I can work with. And you know, I can edit your stuff better than I can write my own. So that's like my, I guess that's one of my talents. But you know, and then usually I make the adjustments and then they, the client comes up with even better stuff. So it's, it's. But I'm not, I'm not a copywriter in that sense. But I will say, you know, in looking at my book and one of the bonuses in the overdeliverbook.com page is the lost chapters of over deliver. And that's all the stuff that I just been writing in the last year. And that's like 178 pages. So.

My writing is significant. But so the answer to your question is I do spend time like, you know, tomorrow, you know, I don't do any calls or anything on Friday. So I, you know, write my blog. I spend some time writing. I get in a creative mode and maybe on Monday too because I don't have any appointments then either. And so that's really what. But I don't, you know, if it's writing a package from scratch, 0% amount of my time. I do spend time with my mastermind members if they have a package that they want my input on that I spent time on. But that, that's part of my, you know, consulting practice, not part of my copywriting practice.

Was that something that you always knew was your better skill set to have that, you know, have something to kind of look at prior to digging into the copy?

I think it was by necessity because I just didn't have the patience or the, or the diligence to, to be able to, I mean, I have curious, I have a couple of the techniques, a couple of the characteristics that the copywriters have I have. I have knowledge of direct marketing. I have. I have passion. I have.

Curiosity. I don't think I have the hunger. I don't think I have the.

And I don't. I don't have the ability to structure, you know, headlines and fascinations, you know, bullet points. I just, you know, I think to be great at that, you have to spend an additional 10,000 hours. Now, some people will say you don't have to, but I didn't. I didn't feel that that was something that I wanted to spend time on. And I didn't even think that. That it was a skill of mine to, you know, write headlines and lead paragraphs and subject lines, things like that that I've developed over time from the writing that I have done.

Sure.

But, yeah.

I tell you, it just. And every great copywriter will also tell you that most of them will tell you that they don't really like writing that much. It's just so hard. They're good at it.

Yeah. It's great to hear because I feel like Matt and I have struggled with the same thing is, yes, we can write copy and it will sell, but it's not going to sell. Amazing. But we're better at critiquing and tweaking things like that.

Well, I just relate so much to the point that copy is really hard. I mean, I've been told I'm good at copy. I don't personally think I'm a great copywriter, but I've been told that I'm pretty decent at it. But it is such a struggle for me to write copy, just the whole blank screen and starting from scratch. And I agonize over every bullet and headline, and it is a struggle. Struggle for me. And so I really, really relate to that.

Yeah, I think that.

The more you get into this, the more you realize it's not only is it not, copywriting is not a commodity. It is such a specialty.

Yes.

And, you know, you got to devote. And again, some people will say, you know, if they're in. If they were, I'll tell you an exception or not exception, but a way where you find really great copywriters. Like, if you're in a niche that you're the expert in, you can really develop your chops a lot faster. So my friend Will Hamilton, who is in my Jeff Walker mastermind. He's fuzzy yellowballs dot com. He is writing in his passion and his. So, you know, I don't think he could write a health offer necessarily. He could write a health offer for tennis players. But he could. He knows his market is that he is his avatar. Susan Garrett, who's another one, she is a, you know, a world champion dog trainer in Jeff Walker's group. She, you know, is as good a copywriter as anybody she could hire. Now, then you have to decide whether that's the best use of your time.

Right.

If, you know, because then maybe what you want to do is get somebody to write something and then you rewrite it, and then if you end up rewriting everything, then, you know, then it doesn't work. So sometimes, you know, I remember Dean Graziosi once said to me that in his real estate business that when he found someone who could write in his voice, that was a game changer. But that's not so easy to do.

Oh, it's tough to find, man. Yeah.

Yeah, it is.

We've been on the.

And that's if you were in that. That's. That's if you were in that niche, you know, that passion niche.

True. Yeah. And our approach lately has been either we start with the writing aspect because we love writing as well. It's just when the persuasive, when you have to be so exact, is where it kind of breaks down. But luckily we have support from some more junior types of copywriters who can take a. Maybe it's a 75%, 80% weigh, their type of piece and really shine it up. And it just helps a lot to have a separate pair of eyeballs on there, too. Looking at things now, I want to be careful on time, but let's touch on the bonuses of the book. Over Deliver, and you mentioned it a handful of times, and we were talking prior to this. It feels like it's its own standalone course or even better than. It's like five courses in one, maybe even 20. I don't know. There's so much in there.

Yeah. So.

I'll tell you, it was an amazing.

I had two basic reasons to put together that, you know, that.

Package. One was I wanted to a book that's called Over Deliver. Better Over Deliver.

So that's the obvious one. And I think it does. I mean, it's so what's in it? So I'm pulling it up right now on my screen. But it starts with.

The lost chapters of Over Deliver. So that's everything that I've written since the book went depressed. Then it's the Titans of Direct response. I'd have six of the 12 keynote speeches from that event. My roundtable with the copywriters, Joe Sugarman, fred Katona, Ken McCarthy. Then I have the copywriters toolkit, which is a 400 page swipe file of direct mail packages going back to 1900. And you'll say, well, what do I want? Packages going back to 1900. Well.

Everything that goes around comes around. And I always say, stealing is a felony. Stealing smarts and Ari and you can have a swipe file that you know for the ages that you will never get stumped when you're thinking of a subject line, a headline, a copy platform. Having a swipe file at your fingertips is always a great thing to do or a great thing to have. I have another swipe file from Dan Kennedy, which is the million dollar swipe file from the event he did at Titans of Direct Response. He, he created a 270 page swipe file and I created a PDF of it for this package. I have the lost interviews of Breakthrough advertising, which is 14 of the most prolific direct response practitioners getting together for a series of interviews, talking about the most important book on copywriting, marketing and human behavior.

And plus a video of Gene himself. I have Gary Bensivenga, who's the world's most.

Prolific retired living copywriter. And I went and got all of his bensevenga bullets, which are priceless, and I compiled them into a PDF and that's one of the bonuses. I have a 20 full length keynote speeches of Jay Abraham.

Those are insane. Yeah, I mean, wow.

He wrote the forward to my book. And I have a second Jay Abraham bonus, which is a course that he did, where to get from where you are to where you want to be, which was a course that's no longer selling. It's the equivalent of like 12 CDs. It's all in digital format. And he spent over $200,000 to put that together. I have Perry Marshall Live, which was a live event I did with Perry, $2,500 a seat. And it's the video of that event from 2013. And he does some amazing stuff in there. And I have a digital version of that. And then I have the two PDF books, Secrets of successful Direct Mail by Dick Benson and Confessions of a Direct Mail Guy by Gordon Grossman. Both books not readily available, but are all on a PDF on this site. So what you do is you go to www.overdeliverbook.com. you go there, there's a button to buy the book on Amazon, my book on Amazon, Barnes and Noble or indie books. You go open up a new window, you buy the book, come back to the site, put your order number in and then you get an email that allows you to download all 11 bonuses that are, you know, some of the things aren't even available. Some of them are available, but you'd have to compile them yourself. And I think that that was. So I hopefully I over deliver.

That's pretty sure you checked that box about a hundred times.

The second box I wanted to check was the idea of.

I don't know if you've seen the movie Coco, it's a Pixar film.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

I've got two kids. I've seen it many times.

Yeah, kids, you've seen it. And it's not. Not just a kids film, it's an amazing film and it's about Dia de Muertos, which is the holiday in Mexico where it's a celebration of the dead. It's the day of the dead. And it's not a mournful day, it's much more of a celebration. And you know, one of the lessons in that movie is that what you're not really dead when you die. You're dead when people stop remembering you. And so when I was 20 and 30 years old, I grabbed, as I said, I gravitated to the 60 and 70 year olds. So a lot of those people are dead and I'm honoring a few of them in this package. But I'm also honoring a lot of people who are still alive, who were my mentors and the shoulders that I'm on. And it was, you know.

I really believe that.

People will live on if you put stuff out there about them that stands the test of time. So this bonus package is now out there in the ether and it's not going away.

And ironically I'd like to, I'll share with you that on April 10th I had a stroke and I almost died and it was, was very scary. I'm doing fine now, I'm recovering well. But it was, you know, the fact that I, in fact my book launched on April 9, so I had to cancel a lot of things. I'm just getting back into it now as I'm talking to you and I realized that, you know, I was so happy that, you know, I ended up surviving and I felt really good. But I realized that if I had died, at least my book is out and my.

Over delivered book.com site is out and I've got all of that stuff that is available forever now I can promote it more because I'm still alive. So that's wonderful. But you know, it was so it was very, you know, when I was talking about Coco before, you know, my. I have my stroke, I was talking about, you know, life is long before my stroke. I was talking about playing the long game before my stroke. And the stroke just accentuated how important that stuff is. So, you know, so that's. That's Checkbox, too, that hopefully I'm honoring my. My mentors alive and dead, that helped me in my career and had stuff that they wanted to share. And of course, you know.

It'S just an honor to have that stuff.

It's an honor to have you here with us and still in your body of work is absolutely impressive. And thank you for highlighting so many of these folks that, you know, their books have not been highlighted or these things, you know, in these speeches and whatnot, you're bringing back to life that folks maybe weren't aware of. And that's really. This podcast that we do here is our honoring of folks like you and others. It's our body of work that we hope lives on and has legs in the ether far beyond just a podcast. And it's really.

I applaud you for that. Thank you.

And you as well. Yeah.

I want to leave you with something because you have something in your notes. You said, you said, we like to keep the conversation focused on some sort of system, process or traffic strategy that you implement in your business. So I have one. It's not, you know, it's not a funnel. I mean, I gave you a couple of funnels. I gave you the book thing, and I gave, you know, I gave you a bunch of stuff. But there's one that I want to. I want to talk about, and it's called. I call it Fishing Without Bait. And it's just. I mean, it's something that a lot of your listeners know. But I wanted to put a visual on it so that they can take it away. So, you know, picture yourself in a rowboat on a lake, and you're fishing, and you throw your pole in the water and, you know, and, you know, you look the fish in the. In the water are your prospects, and you have bait on it. So it could be a, you know, not a. Not a tripwire, but a roadmap to your offer. Tripwires are no good. Tripwires are just a bad term. You don't want to blow up your best customer.

Totally.

You've got the bait in the water, you pull the fish out, and then you get them in your funnel. And that's one way to go. And it's an important Way to go. And if you're new to business, you've got to get some money so it's legitimate and you can be very strategic about it. The bait could be the opt in to a launch. You get them in a launch and then you sell them the product. But I think that if you're developing a list, picture yourself on the lake and instead of putting a pole in the water, you're shining a spotlight on the lake all the time. So the spotlight is an image for your content. You're just throwing your content out there. I mean, this is what Ben Settle doesn't like to do, which is.

Basically massaging a list and, and basically giving people more value than they ever would have wanted. And instead of them getting on your hook, they will eventually jump in your boat. Now, it doesn't happen automatically and it doesn't happen that fast sometimes, but what it does is that they basically, you keep telling them in your content, hey, I have this. I'm here when you need me, but here's some more content.

I have this for you today. I hope you enjoy it. And if you ever need anything, I'm here. And so it's just a little different approach when you're building your list and maybe you have a list already and you're trying some different things, but I got to tell you, if you have a little time and you want to just become a trusted advisor and not just a seller of things, it's a really wonderful way to, to sell in addition to a pole with bait. I mean, you can do both. But I just wanted to give that to you. It's something that I think your listeners know. But I love that image of the spotlight versus the pole. And it really basically lets you fish without bait and the fish jump into your boat instead of getting on a hook. And I like it as a. And that blog post is in the lost chapters of over deliver and in the bonus area I'm very proud of.

Yeah, that's great. And that's where I think that's a good reminder is not you don't always have to have an offer in there. It's the content. And you do a great job at that. So after you do get over deliver, you'll get your emails. And I love your emails because almost all of them are, I don't think, I don't know any of them have really a link to go to. Typically, it's, it's exactly what you just said. And those, you know, in our experience, those are some of the best emails. People just Reply to us. We did that on Friday. And, you know, it's. It was amazing, the amount of responses. You almost get better responses than clicks, you know?

Yeah, I love getting. I mean, you have to. Then you have to answer them. Of course you do.

Yes.

And I always say that I answer every single one of my emails, but maybe not immediately.

Right, right. Same.

But I think that's good practice.

I think. I think there might be, like a technical element to it as well, where if you don't have a link in an email, then there's probably a better deliverability because now the, you know, it's not throwing up red flags that you're trying to send them somewhere.

Is it 25% tech, though?

I don't think so.

I don't think.

I love the pond analogy too, because. Or the fishing analogy, because we actually use a pond analogy a lot lately about how when we build Facebook groups and when we have our print newsletter and we have our podcast and we have our email newsletter, all of those, we consider those our ponds. And so when we throw out emails about, hey, we offer these services, are you interested? That's us throwing our line out into the pond. So it's kind of a sort of similar analogy that we use as we build these various platforms that people can find us on.

Yep, that's great. That's really great. I like that a lot. I think, again, everything is an and it's not an or.

That's right.

And that's a really, really. I like that distinction. I like that you do both. I think that, you know, you've got to have. You got to. And. And different segments of your list can be one way or the other. So, you know, if you're just. Once they become a customer, you know, you can. You can be a little more free with them with more offers, but, you know, there's a lot of ways to go and, you know, it's your list. So I think it's, you know, it's really what you want to make of it and build with it. And, you know, you can ruin it quickly, too, if you overdo it. I find a lot of gurus in the industry, they have so many emails going out, I never know which ones are content and which ones are not. I mean, somebody like Ben Settle, they're. They. They all are both. So you really have to read them all. And that's. That's the trick. And that. That's a really great way to do it. But, yeah, you know, it. I think you want to mix it up. But you know, everybody has different, you know, everybody. The expectations of the audience. You have to keep that in mind too. So if they expect certain things from you, you do that. And if they expect other things from you, you do that.

Yeah.

Awesome.

I love it. Well, I'm going to go ahead and ask a few wrap up questions. Questions here. This, this one actually might be a more difficult question than I was then. I was originally thinking because you read so many books and there's so much, so much reference material that you reference throughout your other books. But what's, what's one or two books that you just think everybody should read?

I've got three, although, you know, I probably have, you know, 100. But I mean, breakthrough advertising is one only because it really, I mean, it's an advanced text for most people in copywriting. But if you, you know, you read that book a few times, you will have such a sense of market list offer and human behavior. So I'd say that one above many of the other marketing books, which are all really good. I mean, you can also, you know, Advertising Solution is good because it summarizes the six book gurus, but Breakthrough Advertising would be one. Number two would be the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, which is a fable, but it's an important fable in terms of.

Just.

A wonderful.

I don't know, he talks about your personal legend, you know, and, and finding your personal legend and what are you on the earth to do? And really, really powerful. And I read that at least once a year. And then the other one is kind of, you'd be surprised, but it's Give and Take by Adam Grant. And he has so much in that book that are. That coincides with my philosophy of giving 1000 of. He talks about givers, takers and matchers, you know, and he makes sure to tell you that the most unsuccessful people in the world are givers, but then the most successful people are also givers. And it's how you give and how you.

Make sure that you, you know, aren't, that you're a champ and not a chump.

In terms of that, you know.

Yeah.

Give and take. So those three, I think are the ones perfect.

And we said it before, but over deliverbook.com, definitely go there and get the bonuses. Get the book, of course, first and the bonuses. Anywhere else, Brian, that you'd love people to go after this interview.

Well, if they want to. I mean, they'll get on my list. So they'll probably eventually hear about Breakthrough Advertising and Brilliant's Breakthrough and and the advertising solution. But if they want a couple of those links.

Breakthrough advertising, they can go to www.breakthroughadvertisingbook.com. for Brilliance Breakthrough, they can go to www.thebrilliancebreakthrough.com and for advertising solution, which also has a bonus package. It doesn't over deliver, but it does over deliver, but not as much as over deliver delivers, but it's really good. And it's the legendsbook.com www.thelegendsbook.com Cool.

We'll link everything up in the show notes so it's nice and easy for everybody. Brian, this has been a massive pleasure and thank you very, very much.

You definitely over delivered on this episode.

I was going to say, I hate.

To say it, but yeah, I felt like I just kept talking but I wanted to get a lot out.

You're fine, man. That's the best stuff. I appreciate you, man. Well, take care of yourself.

Thanks.

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