Chris Krimitsos - Get Over Your Fear of Failure In 7 simple Steps

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float, Shark with your boy, My boy, Matt Wolf.

Joe.

Hey, what's up?

Hey there. You always say was up.

No, I don't. That was the first time I've ever said it.

Bull Truth. I'm gonna pull up some episodes. Really quick intros. Matt, Standard wuzz up line.

No.

Sometimes I say yo.

Oh, yo, yo. Sup?

And sometimes I'll say, hey.

Hey there.

Hey.

Hey, girl.

Yeah, just like that.

Yeah. So today we are. This is one of those rare days where we only interview one person in the day. This is great.

That's not true. I interviewed you earlier.

You did?

Yeah, I asked you some questions.

Oh, I didn't even notice.

Yeah.

Did I give you answers?

Probably.

I'm just.

I'm a sneaky interviewer.

Wasn't impactful.

I'm under the radar interviewing.

Wait, so it turned into a podcast?

No.

Oh, no, no.

This is. This is one of the days where we actually set a time, a specific time to record with this person because none of the other dates that we sort of set aside were working for everybody. And that's very rare that we do that.

Our buddy Chris. Yes. Chris Kremitzos of the podfest. The Pod Fest. I'm putting the in front of it just to make it sound bigger. Podfest Expo. And start ugly. It's the brand new hot book on all presses that you can find books, but you don't find them on presses. You find them in stores like Amazon, but that's a virtual store, so that's not really there. What the heck? I don't know.

You're losing your mind, Joe.

I am. It's a weird world and I can't keep up with it.

We're actually, we're actually. Let's be fully transparent here. We're actually recording this episode two Days before Christmas. So there's a lot of shit going on right now.

Well, yeah, I think both of us are just like, I just don't really want to do the work thing. But we are.

But we love having these conversations and this is fun.

Doesn't feel like work.

Yeah, the conversations, the podcast interviews are like the one thing that we're like, I can't wait to do that. Pretty much everything else in the business, we're like, I gotta do work today.

Yeah. Now I'm motivated by getting some food after this. So.

Yeah, that is true.

We'll not ramble on too much longer.

So let me just kind of shout this out real quick. So Podfest Expo is in Orlando, March 6th through 8th. It's at the Orlando World Center.

Dude, this place is like a theme park in itself. This hotel, so insane. Big. Even if you don't want to do anything podcasting, just go hang out with us and just hang out at the water park or something. There's cool things. And yeah, yeah, Chris holds all these cool parties there, too.

So it's March 6th through 8th. Joe and I are actually doing a private mastermind just for listeners of Hustle and flowchart on the 6th. If you want to be able to come to that mastermind, you got to get in contact with one of us. So either joe@evergreenprofits.com or matt@evergreenprofits.com Joe's probably the better one to reach out to. He's better at replying to people. But, you know, email Joe or me and we'll get you details on how to come to this mastermind that happens before PodFest actually kicks off. That's going to be a lot of great fun. We're excited about doing that.

A lot of great fun. Yes.

A lot of great fun.

And yeah, coming to the Mastermind, you get a little comped ticket to PodFest, so you get entry to. I mean, it's like a massive event. Can't even start to describe it. We talked about it.

You'll hear about it in the episode. We kind of. So this is our second interview with Chris Kurmitzos. We interviewed him once about a year ago probably, and when we interviewed him last time, we actually interviewed him before we had the opportunity to go to PodFest. So this time we've interviewed him and we've been to PodFest once. We also spent a few more days since then with Chris. We met him for lunch or breakfast one day and we met him at another event. So we've actually gotten to know Chris very, very well. So now this new episode with Chris is kind of with the new context of having gone to the event. And now we know Chris personally really, really well. And so you get a lot more insights into the event. But that's actually not what most of today's episode is about.

No, we're talking about his new book, Start Ugly, and this thing's cool. He actually kind of told us the parable, what the story arc looked like back in the summer 2019. And so it was cool. It's interesting. But now that it's released and hearing him deeper, dive in on the lessons and how you can actually use this as it seems like it would be for someone Starting out from scratch. Start ugly. But it's definitely not. It can be, of course, but it's very powerful for anyone, no matter what skill level you're at. And he really breaks down through a parable and he kind of gives you.

Yeah, he breaks down the whole parable in the episode.

Yeah. And then there's also seven steps that I think he said. It's literally just one page of his book is actually like, here are tactical things that just shows you the tactics aren't usually the things that move the needle in a business long term, at least. Yeah.

Well, and going back to what you just said, too, you mentioned that, like, you know, this sounds like it might be for new entrepreneurs, but it's really not. Because one of the things we talk about in this. In this episode is that that's one of the problems with established entrepreneurs is that they believe that they don't have to start new things. They don't have to implement new product lines in an ugly manner. They, you know, as we actually ask him to define entrepreneur in this episode, and as entrepreneurs, one of the things that sort of defines us based on his definition is our sort of drive and desire to create new things constantly. And so if you are already established business and you've sort of ceased to create new things and to innovate and to start ugly on new stuff, then you're going to fail. And that's really what his parabola is all about.

Yeah.

Is one guy who was established refused to add ugly into the mix. One person embraced the ugly and, you know, one person succeeded and one person struggled. And we'll let the story play out on this episode.

We always embrace the ugly. It's good if you don't.

Then we're forced to embrace the ugly. Look at us, Joe.

I know. God help us. Yeah. So it's a really cool lesson. I think you'll get a lot. And at the core of it, I feel like my big takeaway is, you know what starting ugly means? Action that just gives you permission to take action on your thoughts. Because typically if you're not taking action, you're just gonna kind of live in your thoughts. And it's this cyclical thing that definitely can suck a lot more energy out of you and layer in some regret maybe in the future, you know, like looking out 10 years later, you're like, damn, I'm still thinking about opening that microbrewery or something like that.

I'm still thinking about starting that software company.

Exactly.

Software thing going. But yeah, no. So that was My big takeaway.

Yeah, no, it's great stuff.

A lot.

A lot that you're gonna want the notes on because he does break down. He breaks down his seven steps. He breaks down the definition of an entrepreneur. He gives all sorts of case studies about companies that started ugly, as well as case studies of companies who refuse to start ugly and this sort of results. So you're going to want these notes.

So insert jingle here.

Are we going to do it on this episode?

Oh, that was. That was actually supposed to be the insert jingle thing right there, but I.

Didn'T know if we're going to do on this episode because I don't know who made the jingle yet, and I want to give credit to the person who made it.

Get some time.

Okay.

Insert jingle. If it's not that jingle. So this is what. This is why I'm saying this is. We actually had some folks reach out to us because our jingle is going viral, y'. All.

Yeah.

What's the jingle?

38470. Yeah, that one. 38470, comp 4 7, 0.

We didn't match that time. Next time. So, yeah, someone actually sent us a jingle that they made. It sounds like a.

A trio of folks or a quartet.

A quartet. Acapella of. Quartet group.

Yeah. What do they call them, like, when they're on top of the building and they're just like, hello, my darling, hello.

Barbershop quartet.

Yeah, barbershop. Yeah. Yeah. And they're in the stripes and the little hat thing. Yeah. And they're like. So someone sent one of those for this.

And I was gonna splice it in on a couple episodes, but. So our operations manager sent us the file, but we actually didn't get the name of the person who sent it to us. So I wasn't gonna do it on this specific episode yet because I don't.

Know who's doing it. Well, if we get appro time, it'll be in CERN data. If not, then you know why.

Yeah. And we're also going to ask permission to use it because, like, we actually. Shannon gave us the audio file, but we didn't really get much context around it. So we're like, can we use this? Do we know who sent it to us? So we're waiting on more details before we use it.

So if you are a brilliant quartetist or just anyone who can make a great jingle, feel free to send it to our Support. It's@infoegergreenprofits.com and the jingle should involve words such as 38470, comp.

Yeah.

I mean, if you just include that. That's enough.

Yeah, that's enough. And we'll just riff from there. So if you want to be included on the podcast as a call to action to join and get the letter or the notes of this podcast, then just shoot us an email.

Yeah.

With the audio, of course.

Yep. So 38470, comp. You text the word comp to 38470, we'll send you the notes. Or you can go to hustlinflowchart.com comp or we'll send you the notes there, too. You got about two weeks to get them from the time this episode goes live. Then they disappear. They go into our vault talking very quick. EPIC members get them and. Yeah, that's about the whole rundown.

Yeah, get the notes. We like them.

Yep. And for 15 bucks a month, you can become an Epic member and get all of our fricking notes.

You get, like. I think it's like 200 notes. If you wanted 200, you probably don't need 200, let's be honest. But you'll have the option to.

But here's the way I've sort of described it is it's like a Netflix, like, library of, like, tactics. So it's like, if you're sitting there going, man, my SEO sucks. Need to get some, like, good SEO done on my site. Well, we've got notes from 20 different interviews around SEO. You can go pull out all those notes and see what 20 different people. The tactics they gave around SEO.

It's pretty cool.

Likewise with Facebook and Google Ads. And, you know, the list goes on and on of, like, any sort of tactic that you need. We've probably got notes around it. And so that's what's in our Epic member. But what we've also started doing is we've started getting our podcast guests to actually contribute video content. So for that 15 bucks a month, you're not just getting the notes, the backlogs, you're not just getting the notes in the mail mailed you each month. But also you're getting all of this, like, training from all of our past guests.

It's cool.

It's pretty gnarly.

It's. Yeah, we're. We kind of surprise ourselves with the amount of stuff that's in there. So this is not just a big old pitch saying, hey, get it, get it, get it, get it, because. But it's the best thing in the world at the end of the day.

This is just a Pitch for you to go get the notes for free, and then eventually you'll be sold on joining the membership. But today we just want you to get the notes for free by going.

To hustleandflowchart.com comp or 38470 and typing in comp Exactly. With your phone. So just dial.

The first hit's free.

The first hit. Baby steps, right?

The first hit's free. Once we get you addicted, then you start paying us.

This is all the brilliant drug companies and all that.

We're just, you know, riffing off of them.

All right.

Taking their inspiration.

All right, this intro is getting long. Let's go talk to Chris Grimitos.

Yeah, I'm getting hungry. Me too. Chris, welcome back. Round two. How you doing, man?

Round two. Round three. Let's go for it.

I don't know what round we're right now, but at least officially on the show, it's been round two.

Officially on the show, it's round two.

Yes. Oh, man. So, yeah, last time we were chatting all about your POD Fest event from last year. Well, I guess at the time of this recording, it still lives here, but.

This recording will be out next year. Yeah, we're just confusing people now.

Everything's been confused. We get too ahead of these shows. But I know we were chatting about you, your event out there and you know, we weren't there actually prior to the recording of the show. And now that we've been there, it's the best dang fricking podcasting event out there. So props to you, good sir.

No, thank you both for coming out and being part of it. And you're the culture that you guys infuse. Your show and your audience is a perfect match for the culture of PodFest. And when that happens, that's when the magic happens for any kind of business synergies, when the cultures are aligned. And we're so glad to have you guys at PodFest and then continuing to grow the hustle and flowchart community within Pod, you know, PodFest.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we've. We've talked about it quite a bit since going to PodFest. So Joe and I, we go to a lot of events, right? We go to a lot of marketing, digital marketing, entrepreneur, business related events. And there's always sort of egos involved. It always kind of feels like people pumping their chest and wanting to talk about their latest, greatest accomplishment and then the person next to them is trying to one up. And there's just a lot of that going on at a Lot of the events we go to, and PodFest was probably the first event that we ever went to that we sort of experienced this sort of a completely different culture. Like the culture was, if we're all, you know, we can all be successful, we can all help each other rise up, you know, yes, my podcast may get more downloads than your podcast, but here's how I did it. Here's how I could support you collaboration. It was just, there was just much more of a feeling of collaboration and wanting to support each other and all, you know, the, the tide rises all ships. And we don't normally get that at a lot of other business and marketing sort of events that we go to. And I feel like that was what was really unique about PodFest for us. And ever since then, we've just been obsessed with the podcast community. We've actually kind of stopped going to as many marketing events, stopped talking to as many, you know, purely digital marketers, and started to ingrain ourselves a little more into the podcast world instead of the marketing world because we just, we loved that culture so much.

It's, you know, something. And I'm glad to hear from your perspective because we work really hard at creating that culture and embracing it. And part of it is we deal with, we try and be as authentic as in real as we can. And I've been to you and I, the three of us, we all have marketing backgrounds. So I've been to the same event you've been to and everybody talks about their success, but you never hear about the failures till like years later after you've known them. And they're like, yeah, during that time I was losing my shirt and like, why didn't you tell us during the time what was going on? You know, so PodFest is really about like stripping the veneer away and like, let's all help each other out and grow together up the ladder. Success, it's just more powerful. So the way we do that, just culturally, as we try and look for presenters like yourselves that are real individuals, that represent the culture and then that literally infuses through the whole platform and then we have people. The interesting about podfast, most conferences, for anyone that wants to do like a really successful conference, the greatest way you could grow any business or conference is through word of mouth. You definitely have to market. Don't get me wrong, I'm a marketer at heart. But the word of mouth marketing is a marketing you can't pay for because you did it right the first time. So we've grown by bringing Back the same attendees each and every year. And then they bring a friend, which helps grow the community and the culture. And that's. That's really, you know, one of the special sauces that have helped us, you know, grow.

So word of mouth, are you saying do you have, like a referral program? Obviously, it just like, spills out for us. Like, we just can't stop talking about it.

Yeah. What I found is, like, we have affiliate programs, like everybody does, but quite honestly, most of our greatest word of mouth people don't care for the affiliate. They just want to. They love what we have and they want more people to be part of it. So what we found is creating, like, for you guys. You guys are an amazing community. So we were able to find a sponsor to allocate funds to fly one of your members to PodFest as a thank you. So things like that is what I would call from the heart. Give backs that are unique and different than what a normal conference would do. And it gets more buzz. And also we have, like, I know you guys have seen our promotions. We give really cool giveaways.

Yeah.

When people buy tickets or when you show up at PodFest, we have bought 20 to 30, $30,000 worth of gifts. So if you go visit the exhibitors who are part of our community, you wind up winning something. I'm trying to make it 90 or 100% this year coming. So you're guaranteed to win something of value.

We did probably. Yeah.

I think we won like a video camera.

It was like a little GoPro type thing.

Yeah.

I've used it quite a bit. It's really cool. Thank you and welcome, everybody.

If you do the thing, it's almost like 100% and like a decent, decent prize. Not like little tchotchke. It's an imitation GoPro, but still it work. And the reviews were great on Amazon, you know.

Exactly. Yeah. I looked it up. I was like, oh, it's pretty legit afterwards. And I saw in one of your emails, I think today, one of the bonuses. I believe I'm getting this right, but it was a 23andMe. Yeah, a little package there. It's like you can get your genetics screen.

Yeah, well, it's.

We're trying to think, like out of the box because we always do tech stuff. So we're like, what can we do during, you know, family holidays? 23andMe. So if you buy a VIP, we'll do a 23andMe. So it's like, gives you the excuse, two for one. We win, we Get a ticket buyer, but you also win because now you have something you've probably been waiting to treat yourself. And you invest in your business. So it's a write off. And you get a 23andMe on us. So it's a cool win. Win.

It is.

I love it. Yeah. And just to give more context, the way we want a camera is you do this thing where you've obviously got all your sponsors and the exhibitor booths, but you kind of get like a passport sort of thing. And you go around to each exhibitor booth and you get a stamp from each exhibitor. And if you collect all the stamps from all the exhibitors, then you're essentially entered in a raffle. But the percentage of people that actually enter the raffle isn't 100%. So the chances of winning are actually really, really high, where basically everybody wins something.

Right.

Well, two things. So, Matt, that's a really good thing. So two things about that we've gamified. I know a lot of people have seen this. We do a treasure map. But then what we do is we ask each exhibitor to give us a question that they would want attendees to ask them. That allows them to see, okay, can we help this person? Can we just stamp their passport? Maybe they're not a good lead. But we could educate them if we have time. So then the attendee doesn't have to think about what to ask them. So it actually cuts down a lot of time and interaction. And then you're right. Half the people don't do it anyways. So now the half that do it, since I've overbought prizes, you pretty much are guaranteed to win.

Right.

So next year, we're trying to figure out, like, because we'll have so many prizes, and I don't want people to. Someone might say, I have an Alexa or Google mini or whatever. It could be like, all right, pick what you want. Wanted podvest T shirt. Someone might want that more than something electronic because they have it. So then we're gonna do pick what you want. And then the big prizes I'm playing around with raffling off a zero G flight in one of those planes that go down zero GS. It's in Florida. So I'm gonna call them and see if we could work out, like, a grand prize for somebody to do one of those zero G experiences.

That's so cool, man. Cool. Yeah. And that was so outside of the prizes and just making it feel like, you know, like a big community right there. Also, you do Something where it just feels like a smaller event than it really is. This is a pretty dang good size event. About a thousand people or so, I believe.

Yeah. This past year is 1000. Next year it'll be close to 2000. So we have to always engineer. This is why I like events. Events are extremely difficult in a lot of ways. One of the ways is how do you keep an intimate feel as you're increasing your numbers? And what we've done this year is we've niched down the conference. On day one, we literally have niche pods of people learning. Even though it's technically the same education, but it's within your own niche, so you feel like you're in a smaller pot of people. For instance, we'll have military creator con for all the military spouses and active duty people that want to learn about creating. Right. Then we'll have podcast editor con, which is put on by Steve Stewart and Mark Deal for all the editors. So they'll talk the editing language of negotiating with your clients. We'll have sports pod, John Largence has put on. We have a Latin voiceover conference. You guys are doing your mastermind. So we have all these little niche pods, Right. So now you feel like you're at home amongst 50 or 100 people amongst like 10 of those. Right. And that night we all get together and we're networking. Well, you've already made 50 relationships. Now I'm going to put you in a bigger room where I've. I control the flow. So if you're an introvert, you don't have to worry about it. And now you're gonna meet another 40 people. So by the time we get to day two, everybody's family.

Yeah, that's what it feels like. You're passing, you know, the sea of people, but you're picking out most of the people you know or you've seen. So you're like, hey, what's up? So you're. You're even then.

You're connecting them with your people. They're connecting you with their people.

Yeah, yeah. It truly felt like we walked in, we didn't really know anybody. I mean, we had a. We had a few people that we knew that were gonna be there. So we had, you know, a couple people to connect with when we first got there. But, you know, other than the, like, maybe five or six people that we already knew were going to be there, we didn't know, like, anybody. And by, you know, day two or day three, you're walking around in the halls and you're just kind of saying, hey and high fiving everybody you see because by day three, you kind of know most of the people there.

You got a crew.

Yeah.

Doing it right, man. And so, yeah, PodFest. What are the dates for 2020?

March 6th, 7th, 8th and then the day before March 5th. If you buy VIP ticket. It also includes VidFest, which is a YouTube conference for people who want to learn YouTube.

Cool.

And then we're putting on a sort of exclusive Mastermind there for a handful of people. And that's on the fifth, right?

You're on the sixth. Friday the sixth is when all the niche programming. Yeah, you guys will be doing your Mastermind. And then later on that night is when we all connect together. It's going to be amazing.

Yeah. So it's a full on event. So if you're listening and if you spur the moment. I don't know when this is exactly coming out, but go check it out. Podfest. Yeah.

Last year when we actually brought you on the show, I think we recorded like a week before PodFest. So the episode didn't make it out before PodFest. This year we're specifically making sure that anybody listening to this episode that wants to go to PodFest will be able to go to PodFest.

I appreciate it as someone that puts on events. So like my hat, if you were to ask me, like, what do you consider yourself? I'm a marketing guy that loves the online communication arena and I know the two of you are the same, so we tend to bond highly on that. But something about the audio revolution that's going on, the on demand audio, there's so much room for content creators and so much. There's so much robustness there because it's all independent and now you're getting networks and money coming in. But the advantages are still the same for the independent content creator.

The playing field has been set and now it's up to the players to determine how great they want to be. So I just love the whole space.

Now, before we shift gears, because we want to get into. You just came out with a new book called Start Ugly and we want to talk about that and, you know, kind of deep dive into what it's about and the implications and things like that. But before I do, I want to, I want to ask about one last thing for PodFest. Is there anything around PodFest this year that you're. That you're doing different from last year that you're really excited about?

Or any.

Anything that's just like something really to get excited over for PodFest that might be new or something that you do every year. That always has a big impact on people. Like, what's the thing that that gets you most pumped up?

Well, for me, it's the connecting the people together. Like, I love the, like you guys speaking. Like, I love that that connects. Don't get me wrong, the education is top notch. So knowing that have you guys doing a marketing workshop, I just know people are gonna walk away with a lot. But, like, I'll give you an example. We do things so differently in some ways.

The night before Thursday night, you guys will probably be there. We're doing instead of doing like orientation, we do like all hands on deck. Trivial warfare. So the whole room plays warfare against each other. Trivia warfare. So it's like now you sit next to someone you've never known before, and before the event even starts, you become like a little tribe. And I saw that last year. So that got created thanks to Jonathan Oaks, who was like begging me, you got to do it. You got to do it. So eventually I was able to go up there and play with them, see what it would be like. And then it was amazing. The other thing we're adding this year is a marketplace. So we'll have a 90 minute session for business owners and business people to hire their editors and video editors, audio editors, voiceover people in real time, in person.

Wow.

So I'm excited about creating a living marketplace for a lot of these people. Whether they're business owners or not, they need to hire these services and we'll put the service providers right in front of them right then and there. So I'm excited about adding intentional commerce instead of just on like, commerce is intentional the way we do our trade show. But this will be like, you're gonna sit at a table and you'll put a symbol down which will say you're looking for an audio editor. And then we'll have an audio editor sit down with you for two minutes, telling you how they could help you. And you can interview three people on the spot in real time.

Oh, that's really cool.

That's a missed opportunity. You guys will appreciate this. As a marketer, when someone's like, calls me later and I get this year round, hey, who's a good editor? Who's a good editor? I'm like, okay, I didn't do something right. If I knew that the best editor for them was at the conference they just attended. And they both cross each other in the hallway. How can we make it more intentional? So that's what the marketplace will be.

Yeah.

Love it. Yeah. You didn't say it, but you also put on some of the best parties I've ever been to at a networking event or at an event like this.

We will have dueling pianos and we'll have a introvert, extrovert aspect to it. So we'll have a quieter lounge for the introverts and the, the piano bar, which I recommend everybody going in at one point and the, the. The audience is the entertainment. So we have professionals, but they're bringing in extra.

Musical instruments for our attendees to play. So turns out a lot of podcasters are musicians. They are amazing musicians.

You should make sure there's a left handed guitar there.

All right, I'll see what I'll put the request in because the request in there. Guitar done.

It's for the freak and me.

Joe's the lefty guitar player.

Player.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Yeah. No, the, the dueling piano, I think, was a really, really big highlight to us last year at PodFest. Like, that was probably the most fun event I've or party around an event I've ever been to. Just because you have the dueling piano bar, which is already a fun environment anyway. Dueling piano bars are a blast. But then you have all the other podcasters and like people that we recognize jumping up on stage, either sitting at the piano or, you know, getting behind a guitar or grabbing the microphone and singing, or Michael o' Neill plays drums and everybody, like the podcasters that are at PodFest are all sort of rotating and jumping up on stage to play with the band. And it was just such a blast.

We got lucky on that because we had a sponsor who's like, oh, we want to bring a dj. I'm like, let me take care of the music. I'm going to have the audience be the musicians and I go take your party up a notch. Luckily for them, they had some celebrity DJ that decided that he didn't want a DJ that night. So my plans took hold and, you know, people were putting 100 bucks up on the wall to write their sayings. I was surprised. Like, when the energy got going, it was, it was. I don't get drunk and I got buzzed that night. It was okay.

You're like, this is too good.

I make it a habit. Yeah, when something's that good, I get lost in emotion. I start, you know, having a drink or two during your own event. I don't recommend that in the middle of your event, but it was a good buzz, clean, and it was A. It was a phenomenal time. I agree with you, Matt. That was one of my favorite parts.

That was the highlight. And that was our aha moment. We're like this.

There's something here, right?

Yeah. And I think that was the trigger. We're like, all right, we're coming back. Like, we're lifers. Can't get rid of us now. Chris, thanks.

Well, you guys are. I consider you a pillar part. A pillar of our community. I really mean that. Just like Diane Daniels or Glenn the Geek.

Thank you.

Or Dave Jackson, Jessica Kufferman or my wife, Katie Kremetzos. These people have helped build us from when we started. They like making fun of me. When we first started this conference, it was at a Ramada that was next to a strip club. Now it sounds funny, but if you live in the city of Tampa, everything is next to a strip club. I could understand from the outsider's point of view. It's like you ask the locals, like, we don't understand what the problem is. There's no zoning in Tampa. Two cities in the country, Houston, Tampa had no zoning. Therefore you could find like an elementary school and then like the world's greatest strip club down the street. Like, there was no plan there.

That's crazy.

That's funny aside. They all joke about, you'll hear like, oh, yeah, he started next to his strip club. Yeah, it was a decent hotel. It just happened to be right next door to, you know, the dog.

Yeah, I didn't think of that. That funny quip. I just freeze up when they say, and I'm like, all right, let's move on. We're at the Marriott World now, one of the largest, largest Marriott in the world. Over 3000 hotel room rooms at this place. I think it's number eight convention hotel in the country. So it's. It's a very big, amazing venue with its own 18 course, golf course, water park for the kids.

You had a full time. Joe, you would appreciate for us, they had a full time daycare that they just did away with. That was one of my deciding factors because I was like, great. All of us with kids. So we are actively looking for a sponsor to provide daycare. Hopefully we'll get one this year. If not, it'll be next. But it's something we're working on. Cool.

Now you're covering all bases, which is really cool. And I guess what we'll. It's kind of like a good segue because you said when you started.

Well, I guess really quick, we don't need to do the whole backstory. But I think the Start Ugly book now transitioning into that, that's a newer addition to your whole. Just your passion and what you've released out into the world. Let's talk about that and then maybe wrap in some really. Because I know what, it's a big parable, the book itself. And you were so cool and you explained the whole book basically as we were standing in person at Podcast Movie.

Oh, yeah, I told you guys about the book as I was writing it. I do remember that.

Yeah, I think it was almost done.

That's how I was testing out if I had something good. And I remember you guys were like, oh, you were tracking with me as I was telling the story. So I'm like, all right, I think I got something.

Yeah, no, it was really good and it was unique. And I know, I don't know, there's just so many lessons there. So I guess lay the scene out here of what that is, the concepts and. And you just kind of riff from there.

So here's the concept. Change is something that we're living in a world where change is just like, it's happening faster than it ever has. Right. So the concept is how do you teach it in a book format without it getting outdated? So originally I was going to write Future proof your business. But if I were to write about future technologies, by the time we went to print, everything would have changed for the most part. So there was this little story I had heard and literally it's about a paragraph of a story about the guy that was the greatest lumberjack with the greatest lumber mill, even though he had an R and D for his lumberjacks, was replaced by the guy that created the chainsaw. So that's the seed of the idea. And then I basically dreamed up this mythical world where this guy by the name of Gregory Sharp at the turn of the early 1900s is. He's an orphan. His parents died from tuberculosis because that's how, if you look at the history of most people back then, their parents died when they were like 14, left him to take care of his siblings. And basically what he did was he became a self starter and he told everybody he was going to revolutionize the lumber mill industry. And he had a mentor. He was on Manhattan island at the time. That's what they called Manhattan. And an investor named Bernard liked this kid and said to him, I'm going to invest in you. And he became the lumber mill baron, so to speak, of that age. And he hired a young kid to Work his R and D lab. And one day when this young kid was riding his bicycle into the work, he ran it up on a brand new telephone pole that, you know, they had just put in Manhattan. And he realized, like, you know what? My bicycle chain made a mark on that telephone pole. If I could rotate a bicycle chain with a combustible engine, I bet you I could cut wood much quicker than an axe. And basically, that's where the story takes a turn. And the turn. And I'll share with you the story because I think the book is so important. The turn in the story is Mr. Sharp now is a self made man, right? And he says to his assistant Jeff in the R D lab, where's my lighter, sharper ax? And Jeff says, I'm working on this really cool thing. I think it's got legs. And he says, listen, kid, I appreciate you working on this thing, but I need a lighter, sharper, axe. And that's when Jeff feels dejected. And then the next day, Mr. Sharp's wife Sarah comes into the RD and he says, Mrs. Sharp, I showed this to your husband. But he doesn't think, you know, it has legs. But I really do. I think it's the future of his business. And she goes, let me talk to my husband. She kind of liked the energy of this kid. And at dinner time, she says to her husband, she goes, you know, Greg, Jeff's working on something that seems pretty impressive. And he says these things, by the way, I dreamed up. What would the character that is full of himself say, right? And he says, lumberjacks swing axes. They don't swing bicycle chains. So his wife, being very smart, says to him, why don't you have your mentor Bernard take a look at it? I know you trust him. So Bernard looks at it, he says to Greg, I think you should give this kid another shot. Looks like he's working on something. So Greg gives the kid two weeks. And he says, hey, two weeks, give me a working prototype. Otherwise I think you know what will happen. So now Jeff's like frantically trying to make the working prototype of what he's now calling the bicycle chain saw. And he creates a prototype. He shows Greg he hasn't slept in like two weeks. And it works halfway through, but as it's cutting the wood halfway through, it comes apart and almost cuts his hand off. Greg literally fires him on the spot. But Greg is it. Even though Greg's trapped in his ego, he's still a just entrepreneur. He says, listen, I'm gonna give you two weeks pay. You could have the rights to the waste of parts you just created. But good luck to you, son. You know, and at the time, that was very generous. There's no social media. The only other person that kid knew was Greg's wife. So he reaches out to Sarah, says, hey, your husband just fired me. Do you know anybody that could help me? She goes, would you mind taking a meeting with Bernard, the investor? He kind of liked what you had. And. And Bernard winds up bankrolling Jeff. They create the chainsaw company. Greg finds out that his investor invested in this kid, so he asked him to divest all shares in Sharp Lumber Mill, which Bernard happily does and gets out at the top of the market. And then when you fast forward three years, Sarah, who's the bookkeeper of the company and the wife, says, greg, your motto of perfect execution is about to perfectly execute us out of a business, a house, a life, everything. Growth had plateaued by that time. All the best employees had already left. Before they even laid anyone off. They kind of saw the writing on the wall. And on one fateful winter night along the Hudson River, Greg, who's given up all hope at this point.

In tears, is walking along the Hudson river and kind of looking for a sign. And through his tears, he sees a huge bright light. And it's literally Jeff's chainsaw plant. Huge neon light. So figuratively and literally, there's a sign, it's Jeff's plant. And he runs right in, and they tried to security tries to catch him at the door, but he makes it into Jeff's office. And that's when they have a huge come to Jesus moment, so to speak, where Greg says, I don't understand how you did this. I did everything right. I treated my employees right. I did everything right. You know, my marketing, Everything was right. And that's when Jeff says, do you really want to know what you did wrong? And Greg says, yes, I do. I do. He says, you forgot to start ugly like you once did when you first started. And that's the title of the book. And I have toured the country this past year after I released the book. I had a lot of speaking gigs in the back half of the year. And I remember one lady goes to me, I'm a successful business owner. I don't need this message. And I said, actually, the person that is the example in this is a successful business owner. And I've noticed this. I'm in a group with CEOs that do. The average people in my group, they do 10 to 15 million somewhere in revenues. And what I notice is you think because someone is successful, more successful than you, they figured it out. The problem is everybody reaches a limit and they forget to start ugly again. And as a marketer, as someone that runs an event, if I forget to start ugly again, I'm outdated just as fast as I started. So it's a message that I want all entrepreneurs and beginners and marketers, anyone in any field, really, to understand that you have to start ugly over and over in order to succeed in this world.

Yeah, no, that's interesting. We were talking about. You were giving us examples about Gary Vaynerchuk. You knew him back when he was kind of starting or I guess transitioning away from a lot of the. He was working for his dad, I believe, at the liquor store.

Yeah. So his dad had wine, library, tv. Gary had grown it, but it was his dad's for all intensive purposes, Sasha. And he had started to realize, like, okay, I got a brand. What he did with. Here's what he did. That was really smart for anyone listening to this, because I started out with Gary at the same time. I was a marketer before, but I remember he was the first person that resonated with me, like, okay, this guy knows what's going on. He. He's kind of on the right path. And I invited him to speak. At the time, there was no fee. Like, you just bought a couple books and he showed up. You know what I mean? So, like, this is him trying to figure out what he was going to do next. And the question someone asked him at the end of the session was like, what is a question you've never been asked that you wish you were asked? Now, as a podcaster, I hear this all the time, but at the time, it was the first time anyone asked that. And he goes, you know, I don't think he'd ever heard that question before. And he said, I've never been asked why. I went from wine, library, TV guy to Gary Vaynerchuk. That's how he used to brand his name back then, in syllables. Very smart. Now it's Gary V. It's even shorter. Eventually, just be the letter V. Because marketers, if anyone knows, you want to distill it down to a symbol like Prince or Garth Brooks owns the letter G. Like, that's really the best marking. If you could distill it down to a symbol. So eventually it'd be the letter V. I guarantee it. So now it's V, E, E. But at the time he said, no one asked me why I went from the guy that does wine, library, tv to branding Gary Vaynerchuk. So he knew that he was going to transition. So what he did was he put all his brand equity in his name, and he knew that whatever he was going to do next, he could transfer his naming equity into that company. And anyone that's familiar, his companies are now called, like VaynerMedia, Vayner Speaker, Vayner Sports, all Vayner starts with the word Vayner. Yeah, so he was very smart in that time, but also he didn't know what to do next. So what happened was everybody thought he was going to be a.

Fundraiser because he knew so many tech millionaires at the time and billionaires. He could have started a fund and just invested in Facebook and retired. But what he chose to do, after the hundredth person asked him, like, can you do my social media? He went into social media and he started ugly. Because you have to understand something. Don't think of Gary Vee as the person people see him now. Think of him as a normal marketer that just went out and started, got a book deal, smart enough to do that, but now he gets some Fortune 500 company says, I want you to bid on doing our social media. What kind of money do you think that person would bid for that account?

Do you guys have any idea for Fortune 500? And it's got to be up there.

Okay, so, but you gotta realize he's. He's someone that is starting from the grassroots, so his concept of money is not matured enough there. This is my assumption, by the way. So I'm assuming he would say, I'll do it for ten grand a month or whatever. But when you're talking Fortune 500, it's easy. You could easily get quarter million a month. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So what happened for him in his start ugly moment is a lot of these people that he was motivating through his books, through his, you know, platforms were probably coaching him on the back end, saying, hey, Gary, just so you know, here's our budgets. So that gave him the start ugly moment to be comfortable in dealing with those accounts. And he went into the unknown. But he was able to. Maybe he underbid the one account, but on the second one, you better believe his prices went up with whatever that field of business is. So that's a start ugly moment. That's someone from coming from the ground. Grass, grass, ground, roof, from the ground up, figuring out how to deal with the bigger clients. And, you know, I could tell you now I'm pretty sure he says it publicly, but he doesn't charge hundred two or three hundred thousand a month when it comes to companies. It's just a normal cost of business. Right?

Yeah, yeah. And he quickly, he's smart enough to get in the game, don't let the new territory, you know, scare him off. But he's quick to calibrate to the level of that territory or the clients that he's dealing with.

Well, here's, here's what he did that was really smart that I didn't have the wherewithal at the time, but I picked up later and I said to myself, when the next big opportunity comes around, I'm not going to be slow to get in there. So what he understood was no one understood social media to the extent that he did. So he was able to monetize it through a book. Right. Which is not a highly monetizable thing. It is if you hit it out of the park, which he did. But the book gave him credibility overall. Marketers. So we did a mastermind with him when he came down with marketers like ourselves. And he basically told all the marketers, you guys are full of shit because they were, they were selling two or $3,000 products and they were good products. But what he said was really interesting. When I say he said you're full of shit. That's exactly what he said. I'm not. I want to be very clear for anyone that doesn't know this character, I'm not saying it from a thing, I'm telling you almost like verbatim. And it was even rougher than that of that makes sense. Basically said to them, I'm monetizing, I'm holding out monetizing via book because the long game that I'm playing, I will grow entire empire while you guys will be on the third or fourth iteration trying to sell a course that I could get for free online that has no competitive advantage to what I'm doing. It was very interesting to see him say that in, oh, nine. He said that in 2009. So. Or 10, early 10. Somewhere at the end of 09, 10. He understood the landscape of. So what he did was he monetized social media across the entire country via book. And then that opened up literally everybody to come to him. So that advantage is huge for anyone playing at that level. So he was smart to understand how big he could go and how fast.

Right. And that's. Yeah, it's the whole short term, long term thinking, you know, trying to solve the short term problems maybe by selling this $2,000 course, which was all the rage back then, and totally remember the product launches and all that stuff.

Yeah, exactly.

Product launches, exactly. Right. That was the era.

Yeah.

2009, 2010. That was, you know, Frank Kern and John Reese Jenkins and John Reese and all those guys.

Just Frank and his surfboard. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like every month there was a new $2,000 launch by one of these guys, and they were all just sort of rotating through them, but yeah.

And then Ryan Dice would give all his courses away to win, like, the friend prize of a billion. And everybody's like, I just bought this yesterday for two grand. How could you bonus it in with this guy's.

Oh, yeah, I hate to say it, but I was. I was like, right in the mix of all those launches, trying to, like, get on the leaderboards.

No, there's nothing wrong with it. It's just we're all trying to figure out our way. I want to be very clear. I don't put any. It just. We were all looking at a certain equation, and here's this other guy looking at it from a much bigger perspective, saying, this is the interesting thing. All those people you just mentioned, Matt, were industry leaders literally before their time. Like, they popped in 09, but they had started five, six years prior.

Right.

And even in the early. In the late 99, 98, a lot of them had, you know, Yannick Silver, they all had static pages, all that. Anyone that follows this stuff. But here's the thing they had. They were probably on the opportunity before Gary. So what made Gary so special was the strategic awareness, how big the opportunity could be and how to ride out that opportunity. And that's something that.

I remember that, and it's burned inside my head. So whenever, every now and then, I'll do strategic consulting, if it's a niche I want to learn about. But I'm able to look at the pieces at a different level to help people grow, and it's something I'll never forget. So when podcasting came around for me in 2012, 2013, I understood the opportunity because I had just seen Gary literally hit the ball out of the park. So when I knew long game with podcasting, if I grow this long term, I could own a piece of a medium through a conference, which would be very fruitful and.

For me, very fulfilling because I'm dealing with people. But it's also over long term. It could be very profitable, and then I could be a thought leader like Gary with the right book, and that's what start ugly Is it literally was the right book at the right time because everybody has all these philosophies of perfection. Start Ugly is one saying, no, there's no such thing as perfection. Here's a guy that had to learn that lesson. And there's only one in the whole book. There's only one page of how to. The rest is just story and allegory, which is how we all learn. Yeah, I love it. I love it.

Now, one of the things that we constantly, like advice that we give people that are thinking about doing agencies or things like that is, you know, you mentioned Gary went in and sort of way underpriced his first time going into a Fortune 500 company. A lot of what we tell people to do is go to a company and just offer to do the service for free because a. The stakes are very, very low for them. Like, they've got. They probably won't say no if you're offering to do something of value to them for free. And if you, like, screwed up or don't follow through, well, they didn't give you any money. So there's a little less on your shoulders around it. But then also, you start building a portfolio and you get to start saying things like, I've built this for this company and start building that social proof element. So when Joe and I first started, we actually did a lot of crap for free for people just to start building our portfolio and building a network and showing off of our skills. I guess that was kind of our Starting Ugly was just going to companies and saying, hey, I. I'm really good at blogging. Can I set up WordPress and some plugins and make some content for you and kind of get things going? That was my Start Ugly. I was just doing it for free so I can build a portfolio. And Joe was doing similar stuff in the video space.

Another Start Ugly, I would say, is actually our podcast. Totally. We completely.

When this podcast is still ugly.

What are you talking about? It's always going to be ugly.

I highly doubt that your podcast. I want to pay you guys this compliment. Anyone listening to this podcast specifically. I do a lot of podcast interviews whenever I'm on Hustle and Flowchart. I only been on once. I always get feedback from your listeners and that tells the person on the actual podcast, like, how active the community is. So you guys have done an amazing job building a community out of something that's a passive medium, which is podcasting. And you guys have figured out how to put your arms around your listeners and create that into A community, which is a skill and it's not easy.

Yeah.

So congrats on what you guys have built with this community. It's pretty powerful.

Yeah, appreciate it, man.

We really appreciate that. I think, I think when I say our podcast is still ugly, like if you saw behind the scenes, Joe is sitting in.

That's all of us.

Joe is sitting in like an old lady rocking chair right now with a, with a hundred dollar mic. And I'm, I'm sitting like in my office chair with another hundred dollar mic. You probably can't hear it because we actually have like, even though they're only $100 mics, they're decent. But we've got kids screaming in the other room right now, like literally in the same situation.

I'm in my sister in law's house, literally on a milk crate right. Right now. But no, in a chair that I borrowed from my nephew, but with a basketball hoop behind me and doing that. So that's what, that's what it's all about.

Yeah, man.

You guys know this. It start ugly. But it's not start ugly, stay ugly. It's start ugly and perfectly execute as you go up the ladder.

Yes.

So that's the key. And that's what I tell people. It's like, yeah, everybody has to start ugly. But some people like, oh, I started ugly. And I'll tell them very nice. I'm like, you started ugly, but you never, like got better.

Your videos are still as crappy as they were two years ago. That's why you didn't see any momentum. Yeah. Or your podcast has the same. You never, like, listen to it to like critique it. So you have to start ugly and then perfectly execute as you go. And that's the whole point of start ugly.

So I have a question. And the reason why I brought up our podcast being like, our start ugly is. Yeah, there was that joke factor of it all. We kept certain elements still ugly. But no, when we started, we literally, like, there was. We didn't have the vast network. We had a network, but it was, hey, let's deal with the folks that we have. Bring all of our buddies in on this medium together. We don't really know what we're going to talk about. We, we wanted to give away something for free to the masses. Like, we didn't want our. Actually, our big motivation was to stop selling things behind a paywall. Like our best content. We wanted to put it out there for free. That was the whole intention. And then over time. Yeah, we just, you know, hacked Together different offers or ways to build a community and then grow our network. And then. Yeah, so our start Ugly was more the long term vision, I guess, compared to Gary Vaynerchuk. In a way, instead of paying for all this content, we're just like, we're just gonna give it out there for free.

Well, we sort of have this vision similar to Gary, that if we can build a platform, if we can get a lot of listeners to a podcast, we can get a lot of people on an email list, we can get a lot of people reading our blog. If we can build this platform where people are paying attention and they're finding value in what we're putting out for free, there's an infinite way, infinite ways to monetize that attention. All we have to do is create the attention. And that was sort of, that's been our roadmap for the last 10 years, is just create attention and then the monetization of that attention is the easy part.

So you guys bring up a lot of good points and I want to just share something that makes you guys unique, which is anyone listening to this? This is. You could do the same thing. But you guys have built a relationship with me and a relationship with other influencers takes times, as you guys know. So we had like calls before we ever did an interview. Then we got to know each other. Then I invited you or someone referred you guys to me and we built it from there, right? But you, I remember Joe and Matt, you guys were actually active. Like, hey, we'd like to get to know you before we come out there. I remember that, like most people don't do that.

You and I had a 45 minute long call. I think it was like 9 o' clock your time. I was like, what are you doing?

Yeah, it was the Living Daily guys that I think made the connection. Justin and Lee and I walk a.

Lot of times at night. If I can't shut it off, I'll walk the neighborhood and get like five miles in just walking at night talking. So perfect placement, the actually thinking. Usually I'm not on the phone. So what's interesting about that is that relationship started then and now it spills into your podcast where I feel comfortable that I know you guys know what you're talking about. So we could talk strategy and talk in a deeper way. Whereas if I'm interviewed by someone that is a first timer, not knocking them, they haven't built that relationship. So it takes some time to build and for momentum to build. So it just, it creates a different product that's all I'm saying.

I love that you said that. I mean, that's something that I think that in, you know, mentally, we sort of struggle with it. We always wonder if we're doing enough to keep relationships strong and to build better relationships. But I think that's something that is one of the biggest focuses in our business, is that the relationships we make with the people, you know, from this podcast, from the events we go on, even with, you know, the listeners, the audience, the subscribers that write emails, like, Joe and I still read all the emails that come to us and reply to all of them. And, you know, like, they're still getting us. And so that is probably the biggest thing we've tried to do in our business, is to create just, you know, a network of people that we have genuine relationships with. Like, when you can probably come to San Diego. In fact, this literally did happen. You came to San Diego, we all met up for breakfast, and we all hung out for a few hours. And I don't even know if podcasting ever even came up. And I think that's kind of what it's about. Like, we all, We. We. We. We operate in the podcasting space, in the marketing space, but we want to build true relationships that sort of transcend the sort of niche that we operate in. And I think that's something we try.

Really, really hard about that meetup. She's like, I had such a good time with Joe and Matt and Laura, and like, we all brought all in June. We and Dustin and we all bonded, and now we've all. We're all connected from that. It's just cool how that that works with. You got to align the right energy. And I'll.

Yeah.

Anyone listening to this, if you could get good at aligning the right energy and right culture and then connecting people based on that, believe it or not, the synergies are just explosive.

Yeah, that's it. It's not. It doesn't have to be tactical or perfectly planned or anything. Like you said, it's the energy. It's that core kind of thing that. That brings us together initially, and then from there, you know, with good energy and everything you just said there, it's like, cool things happen, you know, us working with Dustin and Wealth Fit in numerous ways. Joe and I are literally meeting.

We're literally recording some content for Wealth Fit today.

Right.

That's the great, great synergy. And then Laura also worked with us. It was. It was like, so great. I could bring you guys all together because Dustin was with me for 10 years in Tampa, and then he moved out to San Diego. Yeah.

That's awesome. No, I could have sworn. And this could just be me getting my wires crossed. And I had a lot of conversations during that last podcast event that we were at, but I could have sworn. When you were talking about Start Ugly, you had another sort of analogy around Jeff Bezos. Am I getting my wires crossed from a different conversation, or was that you?

No, no, it is me. So what we did was the names of the people are based on real people, even though the story is fictional. So the Gregory Sharp is based on the first name. Greg is based on the guy that was the CEO of Borders Books. His assistant is Jeff. Jeff is based on Jeff Bezos, who came into Borders Books, basically took all the analytics and launched Amazon to a whole different level. Bernard is based on Bernard Baruch. And anyone that likes finance and a historian. I like history. Is based on Bernard Baruch. He was known as the lone wolf of Wall Street. He was after J.P. morgan. He kind of held the mantle from the 30s to the 50s or 60s, and he'd hold court in Lafayette Park. So there's some, like, cool little history nuggets in there that we put in there. So originally, just so you guys know, I'm a, like, I'm a hardcore purist. Originally, Greg's business was put out of business by Jeff. And my good friend said, you got to put Greg on the hero's journey. Man, this is too dark. I go, this is real life. This is how it works. Like, listen, do you want people to have redemption when they read this book, or do they just want to, like, be depressed about where they're at? I'm like, good point, good point. So then we massage the ending and we launched the book. Within three days, I ran out of my on demand printer, which I didn't realize on demand could run out of on demand copies.

I did not know that either.

That's the point of it.

No, actually, we did talk to a different publisher not too long ago on the podcast who sort of explained to us how it works where they print a certain amount of copies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Actually, I think it was you. Most of the school telling us it was me.

I figured after most books don't sell a lot, so they only print a few, and they have, like, their production, whatever. So we blew past that. We sold hundreds almost within immediately. And then here's the interesting thing. So people wanted to buy copies when. When it sells out in today's day and age. This is so Crazy how fast we've become accustomed to getting everything the same day via primer. The very next day when it sells out, all it means is you have to wait three days for your book. Like three or four days. So that's what like sold out means in today's day and age, for the most part, with on demand printers. But people were like, I don't know if I could order it, I'll have to wait three or four days. I'm like, no, just order it, you'll get it. And then I stopped saying sold out because it didn't help me. It helped me a little bit as a marketer.

But after that.

Social proof, it's good social proof.

It was great social proof. But then I was like, I'm not gonna belabor that because it's still available. It just takes you four or five days. So we, we were able to move a lot of copies and we're still moving copies. My whole basis of this book is for, to sell a million copies. I wanted to be a best seller. And I think it's got the legs based on how it's built. We've got 44, five star reviews already.

On page 79. Basically we have a seven step process to starting ugly. And if you don't mind, I'd love to share it if it's okay with you guys. Absolutely.

Great.

So remember, starting ugly doesn't have to be. It could be anything, could be a creative endeavor, whatever book, I don't care what it is. But you're delaying starting anything. That's what the whole point is. So one is identify an opportunity or new way of doing things. So for you guys, a new way of doing things was let's give it all away for free. That was like, that was the opportunity at the time you thought, but you had to test out the thesis. Obviously it was correct, but at the time that's what it was. Two, research what you're getting into and set a time limit for the research. Don't allow yourself to get bogged down trying to prepare for every eventuality. That's what a perfectionist. It's just fear, you know, or I'm afraid of success. So you got to just say, okay, time limit. I'm gonna do my research and then I'm gonna make my decision. Step three is create a minimal viable thing, whatever that is, something you're proud to share with the world. Don't get stuck on perfection. Step four is commit to a launch date to make it real, make it public by telling people on social Media, your friend, whatever. Step five is your start ugly launch. So that's when you're actually launched. Step six, this is the biggest, I think part of the whole thing, you want to set check in dates to assess. So a. If you determine you don't like what you started, stop, congrats, you don't have to think about it anymore. So remember, we live in a success culture where we demonize people for so called failing. But as marketers, right, we tried it, now try something different. That's what it's all about. So that's step, that's a B. This is with you guys with your podcast. If you love what you're doing, deciding what your endeavor will become, new business, new division, side hustle, hobby, etc. Set milestones accordingly and then seven, create systems and work towards perfect execution. Now go back when you're ready and start at step one to start ugly again. It's that simple.

I just wrote all those down and I love those. Wow. Okay, so where from your experience, and we kind of like chatted a little bit about this, that there's different types of entrepreneurs which we should probably ask that after this question. But where do you think people get stuck up on or like hung up on on this seven step process?

Honestly, it's, it's in the beginning. They get stuck on thought, period. That's, that's like the number one place people get stuck in their heads thinking about something and visual and like fantasizing about every eventuality that might never happen. So the thought process is the most dangerous process because in the book I give a really great case study. My brother in law, I love dearly, great guy, he was talking about creating a microbrew. He wanted to brew beer. And I was like, why don't you do it? Well, I'm still thinking about it. And I told him this story and I said, you know, you're probably wasting more time thinking about it than actually doing it. And he goes, huh? I go, what's the hub? He goes, I just realized I've been thinking about it for eight years. So like it sounds extreme, but then I started thinking about the things I've been thinking about. And it's funny, but they could be two, three years. So it's taking the fear out of the thought. Like it's okay to think, but you have to have a time limit. So that's what I would tell you is set a time limit. So it's like, are you going to do it yes or no after that time limit? If it's no, stop thinking about it. Think about something new.

I love that. Take the fear out of the thought, because you can burn, like, most your energies just doing that.

And then that's number two.

Yeah, it could totally take the fun out of the whole project. And then your opportunity becomes a burden almost mentally.

Yeah, I mean, we actually. Yeah, we have something right now that falls in that boat of something we've been talking about for years and years and years, and just. We've been talking about it. Just we've never made the next first step into doing it, which is developing a software. We want to develop a software for podcasters. We want to kind of step into that world. Instead of selling info, we want to sell software that actually helps make, you know, make progress for podcasters. And we have a concept. We have, you know, we've. We've talked to other people about the concept. Everybody seems to like it. They think it's a winner. We've just never taken the first step of, like, actually getting it developed. So we're kind of like, in that boat right now with our own thing that we just need to work. I think we've actually been using the term we need to, like, just start ugly with it.

Yeah.

This book is like a gateway drug to business book. So what I mean by that is this book is I wanted to write about a foundational principle. You could probably argue to me that there's no such thing as start ugly, but everything we do is start ugly. Like, I had a surgeon once tell me, chris, I have trouble with start ugly. I go, why is that? I goes, think about it. I perform surgery on people. He goes, we can't start ugly. And I said, I know what you're saying, but remember the books about innovation to change. I go, how did your surgery come to be? Someone had to start ugly somewhere along the innovation cycle. So he's like, oh, yeah, you're right. And then he started telling me how, like, the surgery was this experimental thing created at war when people really needed, you know, a doctor to figure out something. So, like, you have to understand that start ugly, there's a time and a place for it, and it's a foundational, like, law now. Like, you guys want to do software now. You need. I would, you know, you recommend a book about minimal viable products or something about the software industry. So, like, I look at this book as, like, this is, like, everybody should read this book to just have it, like, downloaded in their hard drive. Like, yeah, like, my start will never be perfect. It could be more perfect. Than someone else's. But, like, it's always going to be ugly compared to where you're going to take it two, three years from now if you're doing better. And then. Then I had another chiropractor. He was very successful. And he said he was, like, shaking his head. When I read the seven steps and he came up after me, I go, why were you shaking your head? He goes, I just added a new CBD line of products. And he goes, even though I'm making a lot of money from them, it's not giving me fulfillment. So for whatever reason, he didn't like selling the CBD line because maybe it took his focus away from other stuff he was doing. And he goes, you gave me permission to stop. I don't have to think about anymore. And we have something in American culture, especially that if you stop something, you fail. No, I look at failure as thinking about it, never doing anything about it.

Yeah, sure, I agree with that.

Yeah, man. Dude. Yeah. It gives you. Yeah, this is a freedom. That's what I love about any system like this, especially one that helps harness an idea and give you the framework. It gives you these boundaries to live within, but also it gives you the freedom to just. Just kill it if you got to.

Yeah. I mean, the book is like. It's like an operating system. You can still install other software on top of it, but this is your base operating system.

Pretty much like everything, you know, like, for you guys, for software, obviously, you have to limit the downside. You know, there's some risks inherently involved. But what's. Why don't you do a small test and see how you like it? Now you guys might say, okay, great, we like this, or you'll learn. Okay, instead of a software, we could do this other kind of application that just came out that's actually more robust and kind of in the software. You know what I mean? So starting actually gives you your answers and you see it. My wife and I used to have this when we first started dating. I remember she talked about some healthcare company, and I said to her, I will bet you a million dollars. I never heard of the company before, but it was like a $90 billion company her friends worked at. I said, I guarantee you it didn't start as a healthcare company. And she goes, how do you know? I go, because anyone that knows anything about businesses, they almost always start in some other field and somehow pivot and transition to something else. Like, you see it all the time. We looked it up. The guy started as a wholesale grocer to, like, supermarkets. And one of the companies he acquired actually had a little wholesale division to pharmacies. And he was making so much money, he just focused on that and sold the grocery division. But he started as a wholesale vegetable guy. I mean, you know, that's a. And it turned, it turned into a healthcare company that's worth $90 billion.

And from an outside perspective, you were like, how did this come to be? But then she was like, how do you know this?

I go, I go, I go, listen, at the time, I go, katie, I study business stories. Don't get me wrong. Some of them start intentionally with one thing, but almost always the most successful ones, you're like, oh, that guy was doing what? And he found what? And how did that happen? It's always, you know, it's always these weird zigzags that you don't see coming.

Yeah, yeah. There was an infographic I was reading not too long ago about, like, some of the, you know, the most well known pivots of companies and almost all of the biggest companies in the world started as something completely different. I remember reading, like, Nintendo started as like a, like a dating company or something random like that. Like something that you would never expect. You're like, you know, they was like an adult entertainment site or something like that. They flipped it over to video games somehow. But I don't remember the exact example. I know I'm totally butchering it, but it was something like completely out of left field where you're like, what? Nintendo started as that because it had nothing to do with video games.

Yeah, they all pivot. They all pivot and they start ugly and they just go where the opportunity takes them. And.

My biggest fear in life, and I'll share with you guys, is that now I have two beautiful little girls. I know you guys have kids, is that I, as a father, don't.

Fulfill my mission in life, which is to do one, be a great father. Right? But from business, as a business person, to unleash the potential that I have. So by adopting the Start Ugly philosophy, I allow the fear that any. We all have it. I have fear. Like, what if this doesn't go right? I say to myself, okay, well, I'll start ugly with it. I'll test it this year and see what happens. During my event. I'll do a thing and see how it goes. So, like, the marketplace concept I told you about, that's been something I've been thinking about for two years. This year I'm like, you know what? It's probably Gonna be ugly the first time out. But if the intention is set and I could test, I could only get better if I start ugly this year. So that's kind of like a start ugly moment for me. Yeah, but, but it, it grows into something. Then three years from now, people are like, how'd you figure that out? It's like, well, it wasn't, wasn't smooth in the beginning, but the intention was set and I learned and people gave me feedback and I, I, I talk about, in the book you have to listen to, there's two kinds of feedback. There's, I'll call them the YouTube Internet trolls that I would not listen to.

Because they're just, that's why I'm screwing up. Listen to those guys too much. No, I'm just kidding.

Don't listen to those because they're just like some of them are, but they're just not constructive. And then you do have people that follow you, that love what you do, and they give you really great feedback and it's constructive. And I'll always respond back to constructive feedback and I'll integrate it and I'll decide one of two things. Is it valid? Okay, it might be valid coming from where they are, but if they don't see my overall arching picture, I'll understand where they're coming from and I'll address it in some way. But if it's really good feedback, I'll integrate it for my next promotion, my next event, because it's getting me better and it's allowing me in the start ugly process to really refine what I'm doing and execute perfectly as I go along. So that's the kind of feedback you don't want to have a thin skin. When someone's like giving you really constructive feedback, you know, they're part of your community. You want to listen to it at least and take it in and then decide if it's valid or not.

Yeah, yeah. It seems like that can become something, maybe a new start ugly moment that you can, you know, create a little framework around if it's valid to your vision. And yeah, that's the way I see it is like there's a lot of little start ugly things you can do with your life. Obviously it could be business or outside of business, doesn't matter. But like, as to your point, with families and I feel like, Matt, the three of us are very similar with, we have a lot of potential and vision and things that we want to do. But of course, you know, there's, there's a Belief and values that we all hold as well. Family being very strong for all of us.

Right.

You know, it's, it's, it's kind of like, okay, well if you want to be a billionaire, well, you're probably gonna have to sacrifice a lot of these family values and things that you really love doing. Sitting in milk crate boxes at your sister in law's house or something.

Yeah, we were talking to somebody on the show who basically was saying like, if you want to be a billionaire, but you also want to be someone that basically spends like full time with your family. Those aren't aligned. They're never going to happen. You know, like you've got to essentially choose if you want to get there. And I think all of us, our aspirations aren't necessarily like, our aspirations are more related to family and you know, our belief systems than they are about like trying to get to a billion. But those belief systems don't overlap. If you want to be a billionaire but also be the most like with it father who's around their kids all the time, it's just never going to happen.

Yeah, or you could be, or what I would say is you could, you could be focused on building your business and having family time and if you're lucky enough that you wound up in a niche that allowed you to cash out for billions, which does happen from time to time, then you're a billionaire. And then you have the other prototypes, which I see a lot. They're the power hungry and this is the prototype you guys are talking about. They're gonna spend 40 years doing one thing and only one thing. And they're come hell or high water, they're gonna get to a billion dollars at the detriment of a lot of relationships. And to me that's, that's a travesty. I remember interviewed one guy, he was a billionaire and.

He said, I don't want to personalize it because I don't want anyone know who was. But I just remember him saying that he had a sales team and they didn't hit their goal that month. Okay. This guy had multiple companies, like a lot. And what he did to the sales team was he fired the cleaning crew and gave them all mops to clean the building. So he demoralized them, telling them like you're going to be the cleaning crew if you don't sell to my like old school.

Wow.

Here's the interesting.

I'll tell you that, here's the interesting thing about this.

I actually was a customer when I was starting out as an entrepreneur of one of his companies, and he had incentivized his people to grow month over month, no matter what. Like, he didn't have. There was no excuses, obviously, for him to give people cleaning crew stuff. There's no excuses why you should not hit your goal. But I was the recipient of that philosophy. So I went in at the time and I needed work done on something that I was using. And the salesperson lied to me about what I needed. And I said to that person, I only have 500 to my name. Like, I just started my business years ago. I just moved to Florida. And I go, please make sure whatever I need repaired. It's that one thing, because I don't have other monies to repair it. He looked me in the eye and he took my money. And then after he repaired, all the little things that did were not the problem. Said to me, hey, I think the real problem is this thing. You should go get it checked out at this other place. And I was like, what the f, man? Like, I just told this guy, and I got to meet the owner of that entire company years later as I built my business. And he said there was no excuse for his salespeople. So he created a philosophy of fear around hidden quotas, no matter what. And it just wasn't a good culture. And I remember, I don't know, I said something like, oh, the guy was like 7 years old, and he's like, oh, there's nothing to do but work. I work from 5am Till, you know, whatever, till it gets dark or what. And I work after that. And I said, oh, you know, you should probably getting ready for your son to take over. He goes, he's not ready. He took a day off after 11 days. And I remember this was in front of a live audience, so we all chuckled. But then we realized real quickly that he was for real. Yeah, I still feel bad for him in a way in that he doesn't really even know his kids. He's got all this money, but the relationships, like, he got divorced later on, could care less because for him, the accomplishment is to. To get more things, but he's missing out on, like, life, which is experiences. And they could be ugly, they could be pretty, they could be amazing. And he's just missing out on all of it because his whole life is going to be accumulating. The kids will enjoy it, I'm sure, when they get the money, but they won't enjoy that. They didn't have a dad, right? Like, imagine the hole that that puts it it's huge.

Yeah.

I mean, a pretty famous example is just Steve Jobs.

Right.

I mean, Steve Jobs had famously barely any relationship with his kids and it was one of his biggest regrets later on in life.

Yeah. I hope at the end he patched through and I hope, I think he did, but yeah, that's, that's a travesty. And you know, he was, he was an adopted child that had loving parents, but. But for whatever reason, he was pretty brutal when it came to work.

Oh, yeah. I mean that's. Well, there's. Well, actually something you asked us to ask you, which maybe this is a good fit right now, is how you define entrepreneurship. And you said there's three different types of folks.

Yeah. So I think entrepreneurship gets a bastardized term. And by the way, you could look up textbook. I'm not going off a textbook. I'm going off of my experience in and how I define it. So this is a personalized definition. So don't look it up and tell me I'm wrong. This is how I see it. To me, an entrepreneur is someone that, it's in their DNA, they don't know. Like I'll give you an example. When I had my community of entrepreneurs, we would get someone that was laid off from a company, probably had quarter million dollars in their 401k and they would not invest 500 bucks to join my group of entrepreneurs even though they're like, I want to be an entrepreneur. Then I'd get a guy that had like a quarter million dollars in debt that would say, yeah, tack it on. This is the last 500 on my credit card. I'm into my next business.

By default. In my definition. Entrepreneurs tend to. That's an extreme case, by the way. But entrepreneurs tend to have higher risk tolerance for risk. And I get that. There's different phases in life that entrepreneurs are in. If you have families, the risk might not be as much, but when your kids are out of the house, you might take more risks. And if you have spouses and all that. But an entrepreneur has a much higher propensity for risk and they're more.

To me, an entrepreneur is more creative in that they're going to start something or they see a vision. An entrepreneur to me is someone that always has ADHD when it comes to opportunities. They can't like not see opportunities. Then you have business builders. So a business builder and I come across this all the time, someone that worked in corporate America, they were making quarter million a year, high end executive or they were consultant for Accenture back in the day was Arthur Anderson. And they wind up getting bankrolled into another venture, right, where they got a paycheck. They're fully funded with 10 or 20 million dollars. Now they take that business from 100 million to a billion and now we're all celebrating them. But you have to understand, they started a much comfortable spot to get there. The hardest dollar for any business to make is its first dollar because you can't multiply zeros. So you could only multiply one. So once you break your first dollar, you could start multiplying it. It's very easy for someone like ourselves who has the mindset of the marketing. Taking over a company that does 2 or 3 million and then doubling it or quadrupling it. It's entrepreneurial, but you're, you're taking a business that already grows. So a business builder would be someone that's really good at taking something that already exists and growing it. Okay. An entrepreneur starts usually for me from scratch. So like an Edison or Elon Musk is the extreme case of an entrepreneur. They can't not start from scratch and just keep building stuff. It's in their DNA. Right. And we have millions of entrepreneurs in this country. And then you have business owners. A business owner, if, and I know you could define business, but if you were like inherited a business or it was passed down to you, you're a business owner and you're the custodian of that business. And very rarely you'll see this, but you'll see a third or fourth generation company. And they're all doing very well because one person built upon the success of the other. And there is some entrepreneurs, some start ugly moments to grow that. But for me, an entrepreneur is the person that has the vision to start something from nothing and grow it out of thin air and have the belief.

That to me is what embodies an entrepreneur.

Yeah, no, I think that's really cool because there's a lot of different folks running businesses out there. But, but we all have different skill sets. And yeah, I think definitely us, we have a lot of visions. And I would say we all fall into that very pure entrepreneur space because I know for speaking for ourselves, when we want to scale something, we're still dealing with our ADHD of ideas. And what if we try this? It's like, wait, hold on. Why don't we just stay the vein and actually go deeper on that thing? That's what we're doing.

That's an entrepreneur trait for sure. The adhd, it's learning to Steve Jobs was an entrepreneur. He always, he was just really good at, down the road, understanding, like, what opportunity to take, to take it to the next level. But the only reason I say that is if you're an entrepreneur, make sure that you're learning from other people that been there, done that. Because all too often I'll see someone that'll go to an entrepreneur saying, how come you don't have 10 people working in the C level positions? It's like, like, it's like their revenue is only like half a million or a million a year. They're not at that phase yet. Like, they haven't grown into that. And that person had just came out of some huge corporation where they had everything. So you just want to be careful where you get your information, make sure that you're getting it from po. Been there, done that. If it's a similar situation, because it'll be really good for your, for your pedigree, what you want. So the only reason I define that is we tend to lump everybody in the same pool. And it's just not true. When you start looking at different people and because someone hit a billion dollars, they might have started at 100 million. Like, I'm not saying I can't do that, but I would say it's pretty probable. I think I could do that with 100 million head start in the right industry. It's not that it's not as hard, but you want to learn from people that have been through similar situations because they have a lot of the shared experiences that you could, you could get there. And that's why this podcast so important.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It's like pair the vision with the right person and then build from there.

Yeah. And I mean, we definitely embody those traits. I would say we're most happy when we're building stuff. When we're in the early phase and something is new and we don't know how it's going to play out yet. That's where we're the most pumped up and excited.

I love that every year I have to figure out how to facilitate podvest all these different things I'm doing, because when it doubles in size, it's a different event from the year before.

Right.

Once it becomes not a challenge, like, I know what, but I know that once it. I know everything that's going to happen at that time, I'll make my decision. Do I bring on venture capital to help, you know, get. Prepare my exit, get to the next thing? But right now, I love doing It. So I'm not going anywhere. I have a nice long Runway doing it. But let's be realistic about it. Like, I know that about myself because I've done this now a couple times when I know everything I have to do, Matt, and there's no challenge. It's tough for me to do it because I want the challenge of, like, what can I monkey with next? Like, let's try this or that. Like, that's. That's exciting for me.

And that's where it could be a detriment to the business if you just kind of extend the business and not get extra help. Like a business builder as a partner or an investor.

Yeah. Or hire. If you have enough revenues, hire a manager to manage it for you. And if you know you're in a niche that's very competitive to grow into, then harness the cash flow and now do other projects. You know, there's nothing wrong with that either, for sure.

Yeah. It's just good to identify this now before it's too late.

It's taken me a lifetime to identify it because. So that's this whole start ugly thing. Most of us, and I'm including myself, like, we have to learn what we like, what we don't like, we have to learn what fits us. A lot of times, like, for me, when I'm speaking, people come up and ask me for permission to start something, and I'm like, you don't need my permission. And that's why I got the book. Now it's like, hey, buy, start ugly. Read this book and go get started. You don't need my permission, but the book allows. It's like a key in the ignition. It gives them the like, okay, now I know what I need to do, but that's what we have to understand. If we haven't had enough start uglies, we don't know what we like, what we don't like. You guys have sold a lot of different products. You've been around. You've seen things. You go to these events, so you at least have a framework you could work off of. But if you didn't know anything, you have to start ugly somewhere.

True. Yeah. Got to get your feet wet and just see if you like it or not. If you got something there, grow. If not, bail out next thing. Got a million choices. Yeah, I like it.

Cool. Well, I actually. I need to close the loop real quick.

Do it.

So I mentioned Nintendo used to sell, like, adult something, Right. I looked it up real quick because I, like, my brain would not let me not look it up. So they actually started off by running what they called love hotels.

That was true.

Hotels that were rent by the hour. So use your imagination what a love hotel that was rented by the hour was. But that is how Nintendo started.

Yep.

Wow.

That crazy.

See, that's where. They weren't called Nintendo back then, were they?

I don't know. The thing that I just saw said that Nintendo started. And when they started, they had love hotels. They sold vacuum cleaners, they had a taxi company, and they sold instant rice. And then eventually somehow pivoted into selling electronic video games.

The Wii, the family friendly, you know, game player, started with that. That's crazy.

I love it, man.

So before we wrap up any. Any, like, you know, obviously everybody needs to go check out Start Ugly and we'll link that up in the show notes. Any other books that you've personally read with, you know, since the last time we chatted, that have had a good impact on you? Or maybe I'm going documentaries or.

No, no, I'm going through. I watch a lot of different things, but I'm. Let me just check on my. What do you call it? Audible. I was going through. Can I curse on the show.

I don't want to say. Whatever the hell you want, man.

It's Gary John Bishop. Unfuck yourself. So he's Scottish. That's kind of entertaining to hear him speak, too. But he. That's just getting unstuck out of your own way. And what. What's interesting about what he says is he goes, there's a lot of negative people that take positive actions towards where they want to be, and they still get there. So action taking, one of the key ingredients. He goes, don't get me wrong. You want to be positive and take the actions. He goes. But it's the people that take the action that gets to where they need to go. So just. It's always a good reminder. So that's the book I'm going through.

That's good. I like that.

Funny. This is a funny thing I'd love to share with you guys. When I wrote this book, it was not that great. Like, the story I was telling was great, but I'm not a great writer and I wrote the book personally, so I went through like 20 rewrites to get it to where I needed it to be. And the first process, when I gave it to my friend Barbara to review it, here's her feedback. She goes, first, comma, please know that I love you, period.

This is not good. On the plus side, you have that in quotes, starting ugly thing down, which.

Gives you something to work with.

You took it very literally.

I put that in the book that's on page 91. So I basically put it in there because people like, wow, that was a really good book. Well, here's how it first started. The reason why I wrote the book, I told you guys about the book over the summer, but before I told you guys, I was telling my buddy Gabe about the book. And he got so tired of hearing about me telling everybody about the book because he's like, did you write it? I'm like, not yet, man. Not yet. I'm gonna write it tomorrow. I just never wrote it. So one day I start getting notifications on Facebook and gabe wrote on April 22. Goes, congrats to Chris Kremitzos, who is releasing his book on August 8th. Let me know if you want an invite to the party. I'm like, this son of a bitch. You know, I wound up getting. This is something a good friend would do, right? He goes, I hope you don't mind. I'm like, nah, man, I love you. That's the best. That's the best gift a good friend could give to another one. So he put my ass on the line, so I had to start writing it. Now. We really, we got the book done late August or something, but if he hadn't written that, I don't know if the book would have came out when it did.

Dude, I love it.

We should do that.

He gave me my own start. Ugly moment. Like it was. It was forced.

Yeah, that's how. I mean, that's the thing. It's just shit or get off the pot. You gotta, you know, it's. If you care about something so bad. Yeah. At least take some action. Even if it's gonna, you know, burn. At least it's like it's giving you the confirmation that you, that you follow through on what your beliefs and what you think you're capable of. I think that's huge.

I would say our software is gonna be dropping around June 2020.

Oh, dang. These are first words.

Well, I will put a little thing in the blurb for Podfest group and congratulate you guys on it.

Well, we just publicly declared it on a podcast as well, so I'll back.

It up another couple thousand people. Knowing you guys are releasing software.

Yeah. When it's a third party and Woody and he has a big ass audience, it's when it gets really scary.

We've actually publicly declared a lot of things on this Podcast that didn't end up happening.

So when people are slapping you guys on the back congratulating about your software at podfest, you'll know why.

All right, do it. It'll make it. We'll do it. We'll make it happen.

Definitely.

All right, Chris, this has been awesome.

All right, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna shout out a few things real quick. So PodFest is happening at the Orlando World center in March, March 6th through 8th, and we are putting on a private mastermind on that first day. So if you. You're interested in getting in that private mastermind, contact me or Joe. We'll give you details about how to be there. Otherwise, if you just want to come out to podfest, it's podfestexpo.com and then your new book is called Start Ugly, which is what we just spent the last 45 minutes talking about. So check those things out.

Anybody in the show notes, all the links, all that stuff make it easy for you.

Anything else?

No, man, you guys are awesome. If you look up on Amazon, Start Ugly, please help yourselves, write a review if you enjoy it. But no, thank you for all that you guys do. Thank you for your community. I've gotten more feedback from your community. I can't wait to meet people at PodFest in person. But please come up and say hi to me if you're part of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast community and what you guys are doing. But I'm excited to see you guys in a couple months. Yeah, man, definitely in a couple of whenever. In March 6th through the 8th.

Yeah, whenever it is.

Yeah. I think when this comes out, let's evergreen the podcast.

When this comes out, it'll be. We'll see you next month.

Yeah, right. See you in a couple days.

Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully, the Hustler Flowchart listeners are well represented there. So if you're looking listening, go to podfestexpo.com and where are you? Come hang out with us.

Yeah. All right, Chris. Have a good one, my man, and we'll see you.

Thanks, guys. Thanks, Joe. Thanks, Matt.

All right, bye. Hey, hey, hey. Thank you for listening to that episode. This is Joe Fear. I'm sure you probably already knew that, and Matt is not here right now, but I'm pretty sure he enjoyed the episode just as much as you and I did, because, you know, he went into the production of kind of making that thing right along with me. So thank you very much, and I want to give a quick shout out to our buddies over at Easy Webinar. These been supporting us for a while, a long time. And Casey Zeman is just a super good guy all around. He's actually been on the show before. He's the founder of Easy Webinar. So if you look up Casey Zman on any podcast platform you're listening to, go check him out. Go check out his backstory, what he's all about. You can learn a lot about webinars as well. And right now, Easy Webinar, these guys are actually hooking you up with a great trial. It's a completely free trial to test out their software. So can you soup to nuts, check it all out and see if it's a good fit for you. If you go to easywebinar.com hustle, that's H U S T L E. If you didn't know how to spell hustle, there you go. So if you go to easywebinar.com hustle you can go grab a free trial and EZ webinar literally lives up to its name. It's super simple. I mean, super easy. And it does all the stuff that you're looking for in any kind of thing with webinars, I mean, they literally cover every single type of webinar you possibly can do. So from live to automated to scheduled at specific times, and all these crazy features in between, can't even list them all out. I'll be here way too long. They give you a ton of advanced analytics, what's working, what's not. During your webinar, based off all these actions, you'll see who attended, how long they stayed, if they clicked the offer or if they didn't. Basically, you're gonna make more money and you're gonna work less with this thing and you're gonna create better relationships with the folks that are listening to the. That's a good experience. You want to give that good experience along with some great content, of course, and a killer offer if that's what you got for them. So go try it out yourself. Go check out easywebinar.com hustle that's easywebinar.com hustole alrighty. So that is the end of this episode. Thank you so much for listening to this episode, enjoying it. Hopefully you did. I'm pretty sure you did, if you lasted this long. And go check out Easy Webinar when you get the chance. And we will talk to you next time. Bye.

Bye.

Thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliffs Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice, simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to, and give us your email address, and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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