Chris Krimitsos - Navigating Uncertainty While Growing Your Business

Ask yourself this question. If I was robbed of everything that I am doing professionally right now, that really fulfills me. Like, my assumption is you love what you're doing. Will I still be okay? And would I be okay finding something else to love?

Hey, I'm Joe Fear and welcome to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. This is where we talk all about building businesses so they give you the freedom and fuel for your life. I'm not here to help you build a billion dollar business, but I am here to help you create a business with systems that work for you so you can make more than you need just by working part time. You know, I was a chronic hustle mode kind of guy and I want to share my experiences and mentors I've met along the way to help you reframe things to be the most effective as an entrepreneur. I wish I had this guidance and insight when I was younger. So that's what I'm doing here for you. Please share and enjoy. Chris Kremitz has organized and created over 2000 different types of events, Podfest being one of them. That's my favorite podcasting event. I've been there many times and he's telling us a bunch of lessons of him, a man in his. He's 44 and dropping a lot of nuggets and he'll get you thinking. So let's get into the episode. All right, my friend Chris, we are rolling. It's good to have you back on the show, Joe.

Thanks for having me on. This is one of my favorite platforms to be on.

Appreciate it, man. And you know, obviously it's changed that the years and we are mutual, buddy. Matt Wolf. I'm sure he'll be listening along. You also had a Matt Wolf, you said at your podfest just now, but.

We did, but not. Not your Matt Wolf. Yes, it's kind of funny.

Yeah, yeah, there's a doppelganger out there name wise. But yeah. So, I mean, just for context, everyone listening. Chris runs podfest and a whole bunch of other awesome events I want to learn about right along with everybody else. But you just wrapped it up, what, like last week, two weeks ago or so, this last podcast?

Yeah, I'm, I'm a week out, so I'm in what's called the recovery phase, where you work as hard but not the way people know. It's all, it's all catch up like billing and all this stuff that has to happen after an event. So it's, it's a lot of work on that side of the equation?

Yeah, man. Well, I mean, I. I just know me coming after an event, if there's something I host or even just a big party, you know, you bring a bunch of people. You said you have family in town too, so obviously that's different layer. But there is always this, at least for me. It's almost like a hangover feeling after this big rush of excitement and dopamine and all, whatever is going on inside us. Do you kind of experience a feeling like that after. After an event like this?

Yeah, usually like an event like Podfest, because it's a four day event. I'll have the adrenaline will go for 48 hours even after the event, and then I'll start breaking down. Like, you know, the crash is pretty epic and you want to be very careful of how you come back out of it because it's very easy to commit and do more work. You have to leave afternoons for naps. I'm only speaking personally. For me, I'll leave an afternoon or two for naps. I don't schedule anything. So if I do take a nap, I don't want to feel guilty that my body needs to rec. So that's something that you learn over the years. We used to go on vacation right after and that's not the right thing either because that's an activity that requires a lot of focus. And just for the next two weeks after an event like that, it's cleaning up and whenever possible, naps, walks, thinking about what went well, being grateful for what it was. And then you have to plan your next steps for the next season.

Yeah. So do you have kind of like a rundown, a routine that you just always go into after an event that you've just kind of solidified over the years?

It's changed. Like I said, we used to do vacation right after, which wasn't the right thing. After doing that a couple years, we've tried different things. The routine that I just mentioned is the one I find that works the best, which is don't overload the schedule. Have everything off because you're dealing with your core team handling any issues that occurred from the event. So like I've done a lot of small events. When you start doing an event that's well over 1500 people plus what that does, that's like having 100 small events in one event. So we. Whatever would happen in one year happens in one event now. So there's a lot of dynamics and challenges that you don't even see coming. That happens after the best flow for my Wellbeing is one. Don't read any feedback till two weeks after. So I try not to. Like we just read the feedback today we started and it's about, maybe it's a week after when, when you feel you're ready right after the event. Just take care of all the small things that you need to take care of and make sure to take care of yourself. And then I spend a lot of times, my two girls are everything and my wife, my family's everything. So for me, family time is a really great way to reflect on what I'm grateful for. And Katie knows, like if I go to sleep early or late, my habits are a little off till I adjust back to normal.

Yeah. And you mentioned earlier guilt, like not having guilt around all these things, like taking a nap in the midday or whatever it is. Is that something that's kind of hit you in the past? Like kind of this feeling of guilt, like if you feel like you're not working hard enough, maybe after an event like this?

Yes. Guilt was a big emotion that I had to deal with. Also guilt that you're not pulling your weight with your spouse in the family. So it's actually a family decision. So Katie knows that the two weeks before podfest I'm not available for a lot of small things that I normally am available. And then the immediate week to 10 days after I'm also not available. So that way she knows that I'll start going back to a normal routine maybe seven days to two weeks after. So it's actually a family planning decision because it also impacts another person and two little people and we have pets. Like it affects all that.

Yeah.

So we've, we've been able to. Because an event every year gets hectic as you get closer to the event because all these things happen. It's part of an event. Just things evolve as you get closer. So then once it's done, coming off that high and getting back to equalization takes work. That's what I would tell you. The first week is like don't plan doing anything other than small follow ups with your team and naps. And then week two is when you start getting back into your normal cycle of reflecting, getting the feedback. And then like I, like I now I'm starting to take my kids back to school in the morning. I do a lot of picking up and dropping off. I haven't, I haven't done that in two or three weeks. Now I'm back to this week. I start that cycle again.

Nice. That's a good feeling. Man, when you. When you get into that cycle, that routine, and obviously the little ones appreciate that, they want you around anyway. Might be some resistance there for a while. At least that's what I've experienced with mine.

What did miss Mommy.

Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, it's like mommy phase, man. Like. Yeah, I don't know.

That's always. I'm gonna say that I know what that sounds like. Oh, yeah. I'll have. Sometimes I want mommy pick me up at you, Dad.

I hear that all the time. But she does like the surprises sometimes when I pop in there.

Dad is always good that we have daddy donut dates.

Exactly. I was gonna say come with a cake pop or something that's Dad's not.

Yeah.

So what is there, like, does anything surprise you after holding events like this because you've held what, like 2000. A variety of sizes of events online and offline. But like, anything specific pop up on this last PodFest that you learned?

What I learned is as PodFest gets bigger, more things out of my control happen that are. That can be more riskier to the brand. Because think about. It's a very weird business to be in the event business. There's not a lot of people in this business for a lot of obvious reasons. So as my brand gets bigger, as PodFest itself gets bigger, I don't want it known as Chris's event. I really want it to be podfast stand on its own because it takes an entire group of people to put it on. But I also realize when you have 1500, 2000 people and they're communicating on the app, there's things that happen that are out of my control that I have to catch. And you just can't catch things quick enough. So becomes riskier in some ways. So it's just a very. You have to detach yourself from potential catastrophes because they happen and be okay with it. Because what I learned earlier on, I know you and I were talking a little bit about life balance prior to. So I was really unbalanced in a good way. I loved what I was doing, and I was doing all these events like hundreds a year locally. And I. In my late 30s, I had to start taking blood pressure pills because of the pressure that had built up from seeing what's wrong at every event. In other words, I didn't appreciate what was good about the event, and I only would see what was bad about the event, which is a perfectionistic trait because of that I've been on. And I'm still not hoping, but I'm doing things to get off of a very low dose, but still that blood pressure was built from the intensity and the stress of constantly doing events and not being grateful for what was which. I was grateful, but I would say I was more perfectionistic. What was missing constantly because you're wanting to get better. Right. So what I would say to you, Joe, is in this iteration of Chris, you know, 4.4, right. In my fourth decade of life, 44 years old or young, how you want to look at it, I appreciate what is. I'm conscious that things are getting as your brand gets bigger, there's more risks are going to happen. I'm at peace with it and the only thing I can do is work towards next year to smooth out everything and be okay and be grateful for what is. So I'm at the point now with these big events, like, I already know what needs needs to be fixed. I can't dwell on what didn't go well. And like our event, this was the highest feedback we've had of an event. Now it's our ninth podfast. Yeah, but that's not the reason why I like doing events, is, yes, bringing people together, but I also like executing well. So that side I have to quiet down. So I'll tell you how it would really play havoc in my life when I was younger, Please. I would go to other people's events and I would have that critic of mine turned on and I would see everything wrong with their events and I'd be like, don't they see they could fix this, this, this, this, this? And then I remember someone a lot older, wiser, as well said, well, how's that serving you? And I go, what do you mean? They go, you can't enjoy the event if you're looking at what's wrong. I go, yeah, that's a great point. So now when I go to other events, I enjoy every moment. It's event I'm not putting on, I'm not in charge. No one's asking me to critique their event. And I have a better quality of life by being present to what is and not sitting there focusing on what isn't. And what I look at when I go to other events now is what are they doing right that I could implement. I don't even on the downside, it's just like me, it's like they'll fix it when they can. Maybe they just started their event and they haven't learned a lot of the things that they could fix and they'll learn along the way like all of us, I look at things differently now. I don't look at what's wrong, I just look at like, oh, this is a great event. I'm going to have a good time. These people invited me here. I might have bought a ticket, but I'm going to have a really good time. So what, it took me an extra five minutes to get my registration badge or so what, the food was cold. I met great people. And then there's always, when you have newer events, there's always something that they're trying that someone more seasoned wouldn't try. So I learn a lot of great things. I'm like, wow, I should do that or try that. So that's kind of how I look at life and it makes, makes my well being much better and it just makes me a happier, more well adjusted person around my friends and my family, which I think is really important in this, in this phase of life. I don't, I don't like comparing myself to others anymore. And when I catch myself doing it, I stop it immediately because I'm very happy with what I do. Comparison, I think kills a lot of the joys of life for a lot of people. And I just don't, I don't want that to rob me of my joy of what I love doing.

Epic answer and thanks for sharing. And I share so much of that. I feel like most people, entrepreneurs do because we have that perfectionist stride, that feeling that we should get greater and greater and always improve. But it takes us out of the present moment out of appreciation of the value we're already bringing, you know, because I feel like, yeah, when I get too much caught up in the brain, it stops me from action right now. And even if that action's taken a nap, you know, self care, whatever the heck needs to get done or, or just grinding out some more stuff, whatever it might be, but not dwelling on what could, could have been or something like that. Yeah. Has that been like in the last recent years or so that you've had this shift? Like you mentioned you're 44 now. I know. You know, like a lot of us are going through changes right around that 40ish area. Like some pretty big pivots in life, kids, obviously, relationships. Was that kind of a recent pivot?

I was always conscious that like you don't live forever, but as you go into your 40s, I can only speak for myself. You've lived. Like when you look back, let's say you're 30, you look back and you're twins, like, oh, that's 10 years ago. When you're 40, you start looking at something you did at 16, you're like, oh, that was, you know, 24 or 30 years ago. Right. So you start realizing, like, whoa, I don't know how much Runway is in front of me, but I know that you're either at the midway point or over the midway point. It makes you think, like, okay, well, what do you want to get out of? What do you want to get out of? The moments that you have left. And how many of them do you really have left anyways? So you might as well be happy as you're experiencing them. So the reason why I do events is I love having moments with friends and loved ones. So I'm already very conscious that in general. But I would say to you, Joe, I look at my daughters, and I was like, I want them to have a father that's present, happy, and that is present to what's going on for them. And events are very stressful. So I also have to find a lot of peace in what I do, knowing that there's a lot of things out of my control, outside of what I have control over. So there's all these things that play into it. So, yeah, I'm looking at life now as, like, I wouldn't say I'm monetarily driven. Like, I have a number and happy with it. I'm not looking to take over the world anymore. Maybe when I was 20s, I would tell you up to my 30s, I'm taking over the world. I'm at the point now where I have a nice. I want a nice balance. I can't work around the clock because I want to go home to see my girls. Probably my highlight of my. My day. So I have a limited amount of hours that I'm willing to work because I choose family after that. So I have to really evaluate my decisions very carefully how I do everything. So, yeah, I would say I look at things very differently than I did even two, three years ago. Covid was wake up call. Because we got to spend a lot of time together.

Yeah.

And now as we're coming out of that, I'm evaluating all my time because it's away from the family, if I'm traveling, how I look at it. So I would say. And the events, the last two events I just did are the most stressful in person events I've ever done. My who career.

Really?

Yeah, because you're layering.

And was there another one, too?

No, just we did Podfest last year. And PodFest this year, those two events are the most stressful. And the reason is a lot of people aren't coming out like they once were. Habits have changed and the inflation in the hotel expenses have doubled. So just create a lot of friction points, I would say. This past event, we figured it out, the model, and it was born out of the pain of the last event. So I'm very. I'm very stoic about, like, I think the future is bright, but if anything happens out of my control, let's say another pandemic, I don't know, something happens, and now there is no podfast, I'm okay with that. Even though I want Podfest to last forever, have to find peace, because I don't want to tie my ego in something if it doesn't happen and my whole business model just evaporates. I want to be okay with what is and then just move on. Because at the end of the day, you know, my. My kids and my family take precedent over an event or a business. Even though I love. I want to be very clear, you know this better. Anyway, I love what I do. I love podfest. But I've had to ask myself some hard questions, like, what if a pandemic wipes out what you do? What if it's all virtual? Like, I'll do the virtual, but love the in person. So you have to be okay with these. You ask yourselves these questions like, what do I do if everything I have is wiped out? How do I continue? And the answer is, I might find it hard, but I'll be okay.

That's stoic, man. And yeah, it's always thinking about the finite aspect of things, ourselves. But also maybe an event that's some external thing can wipe out. Yeah, government yarn. Government. But like, like you said, inflation of all the costs, you know?

Well, on cost basis, we have people in our space that have been canceled from what they've said. Like, there's people that are getting actively canceled. So if you think about it, like, what if people just get on your case and you said something that you didn't think was bad? Maybe other people viewed it as bad and now you don't have a living anymore. Like, that happened. There's a lot of weird things that are happening. I'm not talking people think about controversial things. I have a friend that talks about food and natural remedies to food, and their whole email subscriber got canceled on them. There's these weird things you have to ask yourself. Are you okay with not having this? Can you Move on and have something else that will fulfill you. And these are questions that you have to really think about it, because anything could happen. And I think we're living in a world like, you know, what if World War three breaks out tomorrow? Are you okay at the end of that? I know that I have a really great group of friends and family, and I'm hoping that that that counts for something.

Yeah, man. So for. I mean, there's a lot of questions, I guess I want to go to the fact that you have an awesome wife, Katie, and I gotta shout her out and she's gonna come on this podcast pretty soon because she's. She's blowing up her own, you know, side of podcasting with the Women's Meditation Network and like, just all these shows, and it's wild. I was looking at her to like eight or 10 different podcasts.

I think she's up to 10 now, but it changes every month.

Yeah, right. And I remember when she was kind of starting out, wasn't that long ago. But the fact is. And we'll. We'll talk about her maybe on her episode, but you know, the fact that you have entrepreneur wife, you have kids, you know, you guys are both at it. I won't say full time, but obviously full focus on the business, respectively. Like, I just recorded a couple episodes of my wife Heather and talked about copreneurship and like, just the fact that, yeah, here's a couple that maybe are in the same business or other businesses, but they still got a. It's like navigating life between a relationship personally and keeping that fire alive. But also this balance of also running a company or at least supporting them in their company and endeavors. Kind of curious of your thoughts of how you guys navigate that or any. Any things that. Words of wisdom or just initial thoughts that come around that topic.

So I'll share. Our first business together was a company called Tampa Bay Business Owners. And it was like a local chamber for the local business owners in Tampa. Katie was my operations. I was the lead. I had founded that company. And we could. We tried to make it work, but we could not work together. So we would. We would argue like cats and dogs over things. And what happened there was in the relationship, we're not mature enough to know how to communicate with each other. And. And we decide. And at the time, Katie wanted to start her own show or brand entrepreneurship, a journey. So it's time for her to go. But like you said, having the relationship of being husband and wife and then working it complicates The. The roles now, it didn't impact our relationship. It could have, but it didn't impact. Our relationship actually got stronger outside of that because then I was able to support her. She supported me in the ways we could. When a podfest came about, that was more of my thing because Katie, as you know, had her own podcast, but it was related because we're in the same space, but with Katie's. Katie did a show called Biz Women Rock for five or six years. And then she. She. She stopped it. She paused it, and she decided to go into the meditation space. And she saw me consulting. I would pick up consulting gigs. Especially as Covid happened, I was picking up consulting gigs. I don't know what the future was. And she would see me having massive results with people for their shows. And she said, hey, is there any way you could consult with me and help me on my show? And I remember the conversation. I said, are you going to listen to what I have to say? Because the very easy for husband and wives to take each other lightly. I go as a consultant. You have to listen to what I say, otherwise it doesn't work. And she said, as long as you don't make me wrong. And so we made a deal. I won't make you wrong, but you have to follow the plan. Once we agree to the plan. And that really, we were more seasoned. We knew how to talk to each other. We had more tools how communicate with each other. And that literally just between her work ethic and then my marketing knowledge putting the two of us together, that thing just blew up. So I'm very proud of her. It's her company. She's done amazing. But I appreciate that she asked me for help and I was able to lead the marketing of her shows. So that was a milestone moment for our relationship.

That's. That's huge, man. Because, yeah, it's, well, communication. You said the key piece right there. That's the same thing with me and Heather. And it's checking myself look at how I present ideas and how I can support her. But a lot of objective, you know, like, there's a lot of reframing that's happened, you know, for myself at least.

Right. I can't make Katie really, in the past, I'd make her wrong. Like, why do you do this now? It's like, okay, well, tell me what you're thinking. You know, you have to listen and a better communicator at telling her why I think something will be good. At the end of the day, it's her business. Right. So she has veto power, but I think both of us have. I don't know, Joe. It's made our relationship much richer. And I love helping. Being a support to. To my wife because she's doing such amazing work. And then at the same time, I'm deficient in certain skills, like operationally. So she helps in PodFest, but we're working right now on hiring that out to make sure we have that done full time, because as you know, her. Her. Her network is growing so fast. She just needs to be 110% focused on that.

That's cool, man. No, I'm always happy to hear that. And I knew she was tied into podfest in some way. I figured she was more of the organizational. Because you needed to balance as well. It's like me. I mean, there's the same thing for myself. You know, she's always been that way, and she is.

Without Katie right now, operationally, I'd be lost. So. And we're working on training someone to help, but Katie is so strong at that. It's tough to replace something when you have, like, an A player, if that makes sense. And then you have to find someone else. You're like, this is not Katie, you know, and you have to be okay with that sometimes. But I think. I think we found an A player to help lift the weight. But, you know, it's been a great. It's been a great ride. I actually enjoy working with my wife, personally. I think it's amazing and it's fun. And then, you know, I think both of us are like visionary entrepreneurs where we like and we get lost in ideas and marketing, which we love. My wife's very balanced and operationally minded. So for someone like myself, and I don't know if I'll speak for you, Joe, it's fun to give gain the psychic benefits of their hard work by adding our, you know, what we do well, which is, you know, the marketing and, you know, outreach and stuff, you know.

Oh, man. I mean, my. I'm not just to toot my own horn, but I know Heather always reminds me because she's so brilliant in what she does and executes like crazy. Like, that work ethic is just. Just out of this world as well. Very similar to Katie. One day they'll meet.

Yeah, It'd be great to get them together.

Seriously. The whole family.

Yeah. Downside of both of us being entrepreneurs is if we have a bad year or bad couple months, both are entrepreneurial. So this is one thing I learned from Tampa Bay Business owners. If you had one person in the couple that had a steady job and one was entrepreneur, the good thing is you could kind of count on the income of the steady job. Now, obviously, the upside is if you're both. One person's doing really well and the other person's kind of doing okay, you're still okay. If you're both doing well, you're doing well. Want to be careful if both business take a down cycle. You just have to have some backup when times are good. So just something I've learned throughout the years, when you have two entrepreneurs in.

A household, well, that makes me think about how you might be building in some insurance into your own business. Like for PodFest, you were kind of saying, you know, who knows? But another pandemic or whatever, obviously crush the online aspect. You have Guinness Book Record awards, two of them, back to back years. And. But at the same time, like, do you think of. You mentioned consulting? So this could be it as well still. Like, I almost think of it as, like now money and future money. And maybe the future is also mixed in with the now. But it's kind of like there's this blend that always still, you know, allows a little backup just in case. But at the same time, it could help maybe fuel the building of that bigger future thing, that brand. Is that kind of a way you think about it? Because you mentioned consulting and.

Yeah, so what I did for consulting, I don't like ongoing consulting. So I do like a power day, and I charge a premium for it. I. It definitely gives you peace of mind. And you're right. It's money that comes in. Like, you do the consulting, you get paid. That money's in your bank. When I'm dealing with podfest, it's like next year's event. So now I'm dealing with deposits. And then when does that money come in? While you're paying out payroll at the same time. So events very risky in that matter. And who knows? Like, Joe, what happens? Something happens next year.

Sure.

What if there's like, on the weekend of Podfast, World War 3 breaks out?

Like, you know, Covid, that broke out, I think a week after.

A week after we got lucky, like, and everybody was okay. But it's like. So, yeah, you got to look at those kind of world events. So one thing I could tell you is I know that I'll be okay even without podvest, because when I had to hustle, I was able to figure it out. But I've been an entrepreneur since I was a small Kid. So, like, I can't even. I don't even know how to make a record resume. Like, I've tried, and I don't want to. That being said, I don't think anything's wrong with anyone that needs the stability of a job. I completely understand it. Just for me, I like hustling and figuring things out. Luckily for us, we did siphon a lot of the goodwill of Podfest through the marketing channels for Katie shows. Like, you know, I use the relationships to figure out how to get my wife featured in different things. So we have that as a. As a backup, and it feels good, but it wasn't like that always, so. And then if I have to do consulting on my own, I could do that any day of the week.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Oh, relationships, man. I mean, that's where I feel like that's what's always brought me to where I'm at now. And it's all who you know, you know, and that's a saying that some people have some resistance to, you know, Like, I don't, you know, and. But I'm curious of, like, your thoughts, because it's always been bringing people together because that's. That's where the magic's at. And you mentioned in person. I agree. Like, there's just something different that happens when you're in person. I used to put some events on with Matt locally. Some brewery events bring them.

Oh, they were legendary. They weren't just some events. People look forward to your event at a bigger event as their.

I'm quick to turn off my own things, but they were. Yeah, they're.

No, I mean, I remember because I would ask around, they're like, you know, Joe and Matt. And I was like, yeah, they're like, they throw the baddest party at Da Da Da, you know, so that it wasn't just an event, it was a happening. So. So appreciate it. I'm sorry, what was the question?

Like, bringing people together, there's that special something happens and how that pairs up to whatever can show up in the future. You know, it's like these connections and creating something of relationships, and you're just the best at that. I just see you as the perfect connector. You're always helping someone get just through whatever, by a connection, a simple connection. You reach out often, you know, and. And you're like, the other day you reached out right before Podfest. I was like, dude, you should be hustling and grinding. You're like, you're on my mind. You know, I had moment to call. I feel like that gets you further. That's why you'd never have had to create a resume. You know, I just feel like, I don't know, is there, are there some strategies there to your connecting and like, how you can help maybe someone else that might be thinking they're maybe in her head too much and they're like, I want to go reach out to someone. Or maybe there's like, just to kind of build a picture of what's possible there.

I think I do it naturally. Like you mentioned before Podfest, I had a few hours. I had scheduled the whole month off to work on podfest, which is something I learned instead of doing appointments. And in that time I had some extra time. I was like, let me reach out on Joe, see how Joe's doing. Reached out to another couple friends. I think if you could do as many introductions as you can where you're building value with people via emails, get to know you, zoom calls and then when you can meet them in person, you'll always be okay. Like, people will always know who you are and then it's up to you how you leverage that notoriety. But.

I look at life as one big party and once it's over, all things that will count will the moments that you have with other people. So like, I really, I want really great times with people. I built a life full of really rich, deep relationships. So I don't. Like you said, if I ever ask for help, I think I'd have people that would be willing to support and help me. Whether it's putting it out there that I'm consulting people would put that word out there. It just. I think it's very valuable for you to build up a honestly for your mental well being. It's good, it's good for you to have peers that you could talk to. And I'm very fortunate. I have a very strong group of peer groups that I, I belong to and I talk to about what's going on.

Sweet man. Yeah. And for, you know, speaking as men, I know it's a lot of. It's always said that, that men in relationships, the later they get in their life, the less relationships they have. Feel like we're pretty damn unique in the fact that podcasters connecting people online, not all business owners have that, that network and the ability to reach out to so many people that have like a connection there, you know? Yeah.

Joe, most people don't. Like you said, if you really think about it when you're young, if you're in college, you Might have a group of friends you hang out with. Then everybody either couples up or they do their own thing. They get into corporate or entrepreneurship, whatever that journey is. So then by the time you're 40, you're lucky if you have a couple work friends, whoever you work with. And then I've heard from business owners that sold their businesses. They were captains of industry. I'm talking a lot of money, right. And their biggest complaint is they have no friends. And they said, I remember one guy said all his friendships were based on his business relationships. Well, once he sold the business, there was no reason for those people to call him. But in his mind, they were his friends. So then it became very lonely on the other side of selling that business. So I told Katie once, I was like, do you think my friends would be there if I didn't have podfast? She goes, are you kidding me? She goes, everybody would be there because my friendships aren't based. Even though I might have met them through PodFest, they, like you said, they're outside of that world. And I think that's why people listen to Joe Rogan or those podcasts are two to three hours. We're filling a void of hanging out by a campfire with our friends. And technology has really filled in that void, from gaming to whatever. But that used to be time where you would get together in a neighborhood with your friends and that doesn't happen as much. So.

Good point.

That was my New Year's resolution, by the way, was I want to travel and just spend more time with friends. That's why we did the Pod tour last year. Selfishly, it wasn't just to promote podfest. It was to meet and reengage with people like John Largen, a lot of old friends in different parts of the country.

Yeah, that's awesome, man. Yeah, I forgot about the pod tour. But it's a great idea. I mean, you're like a forcing function. You're just making things happen.

It was for my well being. I know that sounds crazy, but I was in this office for like a year and Katie's like, you're miserable. She goes, you need to get out there and be with people. That's what keeps you going. And then when I did the pod tour, I was like, Joe, you know, I was like, why didn't I do this sooner? It was because we're coming out of COVID You don't realize, like, you have to reestablish your habits, dude.

It's. Yeah, Covid. And I'll just tell you, last year for me, I mean, I know we chatted a couple times last year about this whole Web3 crypto pivot that Matt and I did. And I know you. You did some stuff.

I got quite in it, too. Yeah.

Yeah. And I don't know if we have enough time to catch up on that part, but I found myself very siloed in terms of, like, the connections in. In business. I'm talking business side, not equating all of my, you know, like, these are all my friends. This is all I have kind of feeling. But I definitely felt like there was a gap there. The fact that we went to this new space, there were a couple friends that crossovered, but not that many. And I felt like I just kind of closed the door on so many relationships. And it wasn't like I ignored them, but I just didn't reach out. I just didn't even. I didn't engage. And there was, like, a pit in my stomach all the time being like, that doesn't feel right. Like, I don't know. These are the people that brought me to this point. I've exchanged so much value. I've had so much fun and genuine relationships. And then coming back, you know, and then realizing that and being like, holy shit, like, what did I do? And obviously regret anything. I learned a lot. Could have approached it much differently, but at the same time, yeah, there's. There's that same kind of feeling I had last year. I wasn't stuck in an. Oh, I was stuck in an office in a lot of points, but my own doing. Yeah, I don't know. I relate to that. I think people listening can definitely relate. When you're so siloed, you just kind of feel like you can't really reach out or get feedback or have that support. However that that comes back, we did.

During the pod tour, Joe, what I realized, because I live in Florida, so remember, we've been out for quite some time, but a lot of these places, it was the first time someone did a podcast meetup in two or three years. So when the people would come out, they're like. And you'd realize they haven't been out. You'd realize it as you're talking, because there's a different feel, like, when that happens, and there's a different gratefulness that people have. And I realized that a lot of these cities hadn't had, like, a meetup in years. So you're like, wow. Like, it's. We're doing. It feels good to be the catalyst to bring people back out together. With one another. So that was really good for my mental health. For me, being out with people is probably huge. Web3 I got, what I did was I did a couple of events, having some fun because you know, entrepreneurs, we love new things. So it was like something new. And the events were very successful. But what I learned out of that was kind of what we talked about earlier. I can't take on the world anymore. I have a limited amount of time. So PodFest is kind of what in the near future here. That's what I'm doing. And I want to be the best at it. So I could do my POD tour, meet my friends, people in podcasting, in creation of shows and stuff and be great at it. And those, those other events, I am, I'll still do some consulting here and there, but I don't need them to be mine. So I've been able to pay them forward to people. I could do better. Better use of them than I can.

That excites me, man, because that's. That's a similar realization I had. Coming back into this thing too is like, all right, what can I release? What was I holding on to tight, tightly to. And yeah, a lot of it was just this internal drive feeling like I need to do more, I need to take this over. I need to be there. The newest tech, you know, they need to know me and see my voice or, you know, my face, hear my. It's like, you know what?

That was going on my head too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's common. And yeah, dude, thanks for sharing. And I'm stoked to hear that about the crypto side for you too, because I was super curious. I didn't ask you last time we.

I still believe in, you know, what like bitcoin can do for people. And unfortunately there's some unscrupulous people, but that comes out to any brand new industry. But I love that space, but it's not my space and I don't need to own every space. Like I don't need to be. I could just as happy in my space. And that's kind of one of those things like stop looking out like, you know, the grass is green where it's at. So I'm happy with what I have and I'm going to keep working at what I have. And there's a lot of variety to be had there. If you look, you know so much.

Yeah, you just got to be a little slower. Pause and look around. Yeah. See what you got, man. Dude, Chris, I'm stoked that I don't. I didn't even know where we were going to go, honestly. It was kind of just like. I know we can chat for. For ages, you and me, man, so we share.

Can I ask you a question?

Yeah, please.

What do you do to relax, to find your peace, you know, like, how do you. When you're shutting your mind off, and I know it doesn't shut off, like, I get the ideas always come in, but what do you do for your meditation, so to speak, if we were to use that word, not exactly. You know, what is your meditative space for you?

I do a lot of stuff, but my. The. The anchor that I use is my breath. And I looked over just at my screen right here, and there's a little tab I keep open to remind me of my breathing. And it's. It's like a breath pacer. It's, like, super hokey and weird, but it's literally just like this ball that goes up on a graph and then kind of goes down, and that's about five or six seconds up. Breath in, hold for maybe a half second or a second, and then back down the same amount of time and then hold again. And I've just found that that's the best thing that I can do. And to. To kind of, like, throughout Podcasting is a perfect example, is to pace myself and my speed, because my brain wants to go so fast, but my voice. And if I. And I'll find I'm out of breath, like, I didn't breathe for, like, two minutes, feels like. So I've been meditating for a long time, but breath is definitely the thing that just, like, chills me out. And it helps that I just got this apple watch, and I've been. I've been kind of learning a lot about heart rate variability, hrv. And when we breathe in kind of this cadence, it chills our heart out. So our heart's not erratically popping up and down at different speeds. And it's all based in the breath. So that's where it's more of like a mindfulness approach is what I take. Just.

That's a great thing.

Yeah. So that's my. I have so many other things I could. I could talk about, but the breath.

No, I think that's. I know when I do events, I forget to breathe, so I have to remind myself to breathe during an event or before. And then right now, when I have time, I like going for walks that's good without any music, anything. You know, I have, like, a walking stick, walks along the water here in Tampa and just be alone with my thoughts.

Nice. No tech or anything. That's beautiful, man.

I'd like to say, for the most part, you know, unfortunately, we do break our own rules. But if I. Yeah, if you were to ask me, like, no tech, no. No music even, and just my sometimes, ideally, me talking out loud to myself so I could hear my thoughts and I'm able to rethink the day. Look at my. Like, you know how I think you're the same way. But if I can't get my thoughts out, like marketing stuff, sometimes I don't have to do it all. But if I could verbalize it, it's cathartic to let it out to the point where.

Like yourself, though. Yeah, right.

To myself, yeah. Because I used to do that with Katie. She, like. And she's an operation mind. So what is an opera? You can't do that. How are you gonna implement? I'm like, no, no. I just need to, like, sometimes a creative mind, I just need to let it out. Doesn't mean I'm gonna do it and think about it.

I'm identical, man. Like, I relate so much. I have a spa or a hot tub, you know, in the backyard on my deck. And that's typically where I'll sit at night, look at the stars and just gibberish will. Will come out sometimes. And it's purely that. It's just to free it out of my mind. I just know if I'm stuck in my head too much, I'm gonna be complacent. Things happen. Like, I get too much in my head and doesn't move. Like, my momentum stops.

I had the author of Guerrilla Marketing, J. Conrad Levinson, before he died. I was a really young guy getting started. I had him speak twice. And his name was Jay Conrad Levinson, Phenomenal human being. He looked like Mr. Burns, if you want to like what?

But I remember I put him up at a hotel and I was finishing up something later on that night, I was still there, it was late. And I see the guy and what he would do. And this guy was a phenomenal, brilliant mind. At night, he would walk and look at, like this. He would go outside, look at the sky, walk. And he would pace for like two, three hours. Like after it was like 10 or 11pm till 1am and just like, think and talk to himself. You could tell he's not talking out loud, but he was just like. And that's what he did every night. That was his meditation, so to speak. And I was like, here's, you know, most brilliant minds in marketing, and here he is exercising his gift by himself. So I just always found that fascinating, and I do that naturally as well. But it's cool to see that, you know, from a guy you just brought in doing it on his own. And he was. He didn't want to be bothered. He goes. He'd say hi, and then you could see him just back to his thoughts.

Thinking, yeah. And you got to respect that space, man. And the fact that he's doing it. It's not just some strategy talked about somewhere in his books. You know, I got to find the.

Audio and send it to you. I still. I think we have it in the archives.

Yeah.

It was the best guerrilla marketing lesson I've ever. I mean, the guy was just one nugget after another. He didn't even have a PowerPoint. I think he had a PowerPoint, but it was like. I mean, it was. The best marketing class I've ever had was from him. And he. He's created, you know, Stay Puft, Marshmallow Man, Die Hard Batteries. He created the Cowboy for the Marlboro cigarette. So the guy had created the most iconic brands, and here he was teaching it to a small group of entrepreneurs because at the time he got forgotten. People didn't know who he was back then. They just knew guerrilla marketing. And he was 79. It was his last couple, and I was able revive his career, bring him into a group of marketers, and they all started doing books with him.

Oh, wow. Yeah, please, if you could find that.

That I'll send it to you because I know you, and if you want to use it, I'd be more than happy. So people listen to it, see if it has any value. This was 15 years ago, so hopefully should be about spot on.

Still to this day, I'm sure there's some timeless nuggets, man.

I mean, 100%. I remember as a kid, I was like, man, this is cold. I was taking notes.

Yeah, maybe there's a clip or something we could pull out here and combine it with that. And I don't know, we'll. We'll see.

But, yeah, the one nugget that I still. I repeat often, he said, I hate to admit this, but consistent bad marketing done consistently will beat extraordinary marketing done inconsistently. Every day of the week, he goes, the marketplace and the consumer demands consistency, which builds trust, and that you'll be there. And that's why sometimes locally, you'll see some brand. You're like, that's the Dumbest commercial, but they're around for 10 years. Well, guess what? You know who they are and you're calling them. Yeah. Consistency, man.

That's like, even though we want to.

Do exceptional marketing consistently. Right. That's. That's the goal. But I just remember he said, I hate to admit this, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he went through that. Always stayed with me.

Oh, it's powerful, man. Is in this kind of bookends. The other start of our conversation is entrepreneurs being this perfectionist, always wanting to put our best craft out there. And I know for myself, and it sounds like for you, is like we can get stopped in that path of creation if we just try to get too perfect, get to the. Too locked in our minds of how, oh, this is the best strategy to do or whatever the hell, you know, most efficient way. It's like, no, just do you. But like, keep it consistent because get out of your own way. Simple decisions, if at all possible. I don't know if you. You're familiar with Rick Rubin and his new book. He's that epic music producer and he.

Oh, yeah, I know who Rick Rubin is. I haven't listened to the book, but I watched some podcast reviews. He did.

Yeah. Well, you might have heard it. It's just like his. His simple decision framework. It's like, just boil everything down to, like, two things, and that shouldn't be difficult for you to decide what feels good at the moment and then just pick that and then move on and then do it again. And to move on. I'm like, God damn. It's that easy. Yeah.

He's upset a lot of artists that he's worked with because of that decision making, but he's always made the right choice. I don't know if that makes sense.

Yeah, no.

Even for them, because it's, you know, try and please everybody. You become very unhappy person. But when you make the right decision in the moment constantly. And I think that's why he's. I don't think anyone has ever produced more music than that guy. He's on if. When you look at his biography, he's worked with pretty much every artist he crushes. It's ever made something in the last 30 years.

Yeah, man. So, yeah, if that's of any use for y' all listening. So, Chris, anything that you want to leave us with right before we wrap it up here? Obviously, go check out Pod Fest. And that happens, what, every January Ish or so?

Every once a year. We don't know what time at this point. With the hotels until we could get regularity again. It's what we can get. Okay, but what just. It's worth it coming out whenever it happens. And that's the key. The. What I would leave everybody with is ask yourself this question. If I was robbed of everything that I am doing professionally right now, that really fulfills me, like, I'm. My assumption is, you love what you're doing. Will I still be okay? And would I be okay finding something else to love? And it's very like, stoic and Buddhist. Like, but I had to ask myself during COVID like, what happened after? And you were the most epic event. Like, we had this epic event seven days later. I didn't know if I'll ever do another in person event for quite some time. And I had to ask myself, am I okay not doing what I've been doing? Like, who? You have to ask yourself all the time, like, who am I? And it's like, yeah, it took a while, but it took like, be okay, I'll find something. I just find something else that I really enjoy. Because in life, what am I do? Stress myself out into a heart attack. And you see that often, like, people just get the stress is what kills your body. So if you could alleviate stress, you'll be healthier. Obviously you want food health, but I think stress is probably right up there with poor food choices that stress out the toxins in your body. So my job is I don't want to have a stressed out body so I could be healthy and be present with my daughter. So I would just say ask yourself that question. Are you okay if your professional title got stripped away from you, the one that you love? Are you okay with that? Or how would I be okay with that? That. Because if it does happen, you got to find some peace in it and don't be wrapped up in those titles.

All right, I'm leaving at that. Go journal, go meditate, y'. All. Whatever you gotta do, I'm gonna do the same. Chris. Appreciate you, brother. Much love. And yeah, check out podfestexpo.com. that's all. All the fun info. Get on Chris's list too. I feel like there's like a daily email. So if you're a podcast or you're a content creator, there's always something, a nugget that'll inspire you to create more and seek out what is that deeper thing that you're putting out there in the world. So appreciate you, brother.

Thanks, Joe.

All right, all right. That's what I got for you today. And remember, it's not all about living to work. It's all about working to live if you need to do the work. But you know, work can be fun and it should be fueling for your life. So if you enjoyed what you just heard, if you got some nuggets of wisdom that you want to share or you're just noodling on right now, please go tell others. The way that people find this show and how you can help others get their aha moments is through word of mouth. So if it is telling your friend, telling your family, send an email to your list writing a review or whatever it might be. Everything helps. So thank you so much for listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast and I will see you next time.

Sam.