Dan Martell - How You Are Preventing Your Company From Scaling

So this framework called the buyback Blueprint, okay, here's the big premise that people need to understand about just life in general. The way it works is we work to generate money, right? So we trade time for money, and then as an entrepreneur, eventually we trade money, buyback time, Right? And then if you're good and you make money, then you trade money to make money. The idea about the buyback blueprint, which is different because people are like, okay, you trade money to get time. The big difference is that I'm a big fan of hiring people to buy back your time, not hiring people to buy capacity.

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Flow Shark with your boy.

My boy, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Hey, we back?

Yes, we are. For another episode.

Another episode of Hussy and Flowy.

Hussy.

I guess that's not a good word, huh? No, I was trying to shorten it. Hustle and Flowchart.

Yeah. Just stick with the original.

Yeah. I won't call us hussies anymore. We're the flow bros.

There you go. Yeah. Because we hustle less now.

We hustle less.

We flow more.

I mean, the Hustle and Flowchart was really more a sort of play on words about, like, our roles in the business, not so much the fact that we need to hustle, but. Yeah. Somebody referred to us as Flobros, and I think it's just kind of stuck.

I forget who that was, but if you're out there, let us know who that was. Yeah.

Might have come up by multiple people, probably.

So another bro then we can add to the Flow Bros for the day for this episode is Dan Martell. And this guy definitely flowed during the episode. There's. He is the man in software, like, SaaS.

I feel like I've said this on a lot of podcasts now, so it probably doesn't hold a lot of weight anymore, but this is actually one of my favorite podcast interviews we've done.

No, I would. This is behind the scenes, but right after. And Dan, if you're hearing this, it's true. We hit stop, and he took the headphones off and kind of looked at. And Matt's like, that was, I think, my favorite episode. Yeah. At least in a very long time. But I think you just said straight out, it's my favorite episode. Like, damn. All right, cool. And I would agree. There's so many things that, like, so he's a software guy.

He.

He. I mean, he'll get into his story. There's no reason why we should even recap it now, but just know that he is all around software. But it wasn't always like that. But like if you're in the software game, you need to know.

But we're not talking about just software. In fact, I don't think we even really touched that much.

That's my software. That's my point is like this is applied across the board.

Yeah, this is, this is like how to grow a business. Like flat out doesn't matter what kind.

Of business it is, but with the software thinking. Yeah. Like as a coder in the way of pattern recognition and you know, repeatable things all the way down to his content strategy that he uses on YouTube and blog and email to support his business. But yeah, you could apply this across the board.

Yeah, I mean he's a prolific investor. He's invested in like massive companies.

Intercom there's what he's an advisor for so many of them. Yeah, hootsuite was one of them. I mean there's a list and he tells.

Yeah, he'll name them all off. I'm drawing a blank right now as we're shooting this intro. But yeah, he's a pretty prolific investor and it seems like he finds winners really consistently. So we had to sort of dig in on that too. Like how does he pick these investments? How does he find the companies he's going to invest in? And I thought that led to a really good discussion as well.

You know, it was interesting. We didn't really dig into it enough. But he ran from the cops at one point.

He did run from the cops.

Your pursuit too. So he came from an interesting background and turned all that stuff around. But you can see how that relates to what got him to where he's at now. So it's super fascinating. The guy is just an amazing man.

This podcast is valued at over $5,000.

Actually it's right at $5,000 $83.33. But yeah, I guess per minute. Per minute. But that makes. That's so you'll hear.

Values his time. But how he helps his folks, you know, his coaching folks value their time. So that was actually an eye opening thing. And how you can actually then buy back your time.

Yeah, the buyback blueprint.

He gets into that, that, that's powerful shit right there. Everyone, no matter who you are, I mean, do that. Because he breaks down the math and it's just so simple.

There is so much good stuff in this episode. This is one that Joe and I already said. Let's listen back to this one. We're actually, we actually are making an appointment to sit down, listen it and have a discussion around this episode. That's how much we enjoyed this episode. So you're in for a treat. And we're taking notes for you.

So get the notes, please, for the love of God.

Yeah.

All right. You have two weeks of this episode going live. That's just how it works, y'. All. They're free, but then they go away because we gotta pay our people somehow. So get the notes for free. It's at hustleandflowchart.com comp.

Yep.

What is it, Matt?

Hustleandflowchart.com comp just in case they didn't.

Understand, you know, my accent.

Yeah. There's a way you can send a phone number if you Text comp to 38470, you can get it that way, too. Either way, whatever works for you. We'll get it to you.

Either way, you'll get them. You're going to love these things. Yep. Go get them.

Let's go talk to Dan.

Do it. All right, Dan, we're live. I know you've been live on IG already, but it's official. How you doing?

I'm doing amazing. Thanks so much for having me.

Of course. Well, you're. You're. You're doing it right. We were chatting about kind of what you're doing in Canada now, but on the boat, floating around. But you're just living the life, man. You're doing a lot of cool stuff. I try.

I work my ass off in my 20s to kind of to get. Live a little bit more integrated life in my 30s and 40s. So that's fruits of a lot of hard labor.

I know. Yeah. We have a ton of mutual friends, it seems like now. And a lot of, you know, our mentors and the folks we look up for up to, they're in your masterminds. You've coached them through software and stuff like that.

And take us back, because you have a hell of a story, and it's kind of like you got a mix of just this interesting past and like you said, grinding. But even before then. But now you're like, pretty much every SaaS founder knows you.

I mean, if they don't, I got some marketing work to do. That's the goal. I decided probably three or four years ago that I wanted to become the number one coach to SaaS founders. Software as a service is what SaaS stands for. So today I get to coach the founders of ClickFunnel Carrot. Who's Trevor from Organized just got off carrot.com, proposify, dealmachine.com I mean, pretty much if you know somebody's got software, they're either on the fence of working with me or I'm working with them. But it kind of makes no sense for them not to because I've literally created the best coaching process system for software founders. But I guess going back to how I even got to that point where people, you know, would seek out my advice.

I mean, you know what, I've shared this story many times, but I want to share in, I guess, a different light. So I grew up in a really challenging environment.

And got diagnosed with ADHD when I was 11. Taken out of my house because of some of the anger and challenges I had. I was the second oldest, four kids. Grew up in four kids and put in crisis centers and group homes and foster care and just really struggle. And my life changed when, you know, I was 17, driving a stolen car high and drunk and got into a high speed chase with the police. And as I was trying to get away from them, I ended up smashing the side of a house. But before I stole the car, I actually had a backpack with a handgun in it and told myself that if the cops caught me, I was going to pull the gun and let them do their job. So when I hit the house, I went for the gun and it got stuck and I just kept pulling on it and pulling on it and eventually the door opened up and the police grabbed me and threw me in the back of the car. And I woke up sober the next day in this jail cell in this place called Sussex, New Brunswick, wondering what my life was going to look like. And I ended up getting sentenced about six months in an adult jail just for the severity of my crimes, kind of. They had these two juvenile detentions in, in the state, province. I'm from Canada, east coast Canada. And after that six months, I got released to this rehab center called Portage, which was, you know, a rehab center for adolescents with drug addiction. And I did an 11 month program. Literally 11 months of like developing myself, working on, you know, what made me take my emotional side of things, anger issues and rebuilding the relationship with my family and the trust that I'd lost. And at the end of that program, I was actually helping Rick, one of the maintenance guys, clean out this old cabin. It was a church camp that they kind of took over and turned it into this place in the middle of nowhere, literally middle of nowhere. And in one of the rooms there was this old 486 computer and this yellow book on Java programming. And I booted it up and followed chapter one of this book and literally followed word for word and started the, you know, the terminal window and the Java executable thing. And by, you know, 30 minutes later I got the computer to say, hello world.

That's not bad. Better not.

I thought I was genius. I literally, this is how weird my ego got at that point was I thought I was like this undiscovered Doogie Howser. Like yeah. And turned out I'm actually not a very good programmer. And that took me 10 years to figure out when I eventually like started hiring really great programmers and realized what a 10x software developer looks like. And it wasn't me. The, the crazy thing after that was this is 1997, 98. So the Internet was really coming into its heyday and turned out to be an incredible time for me. I ended up, you know, the way I look at it is software became my new addiction. Writing. I would stay up till 2, 3 in the morning writing code. Building companies and entrepreneurship, the ultimate personal development program. And that those two things have driven me since then. Now I had two failed software companies back to back maritime vacation and then NB Host. And it wasn't until I was 24. So I just started, you know, 17 years old, got out of rehab and sober since.

You know, today I look at my life and I kind of like just can't believe it. I mean, two incredible kids, a beautiful wife.

Financially I've been, you know, I've done pretty well since I was 27. That was my third company. Finally decided to learn about business. I've always read software books, but I never actually thought to read a business book till I was 23.

Whoa, okay.

I started this company, Spheric, ended up growing that to you know, 30 plus employees and exited that company to a U.S. firm when I was 28, became a millionaire. I was 27 because the business was incredibly profitable and doing millions in revenue and.

And then I moved to San Francisco to see if, you know, I could do it again amongst the land of the tech nerds. And turned out that some of my crazy ideas worked out and did. Two venture backed companies exited those. So in a 10 year period. This is crazy. I want people to understand when you hear the, the, you know, you overestimate what you get done in a year and underestimate what you get done in 10. I, I literally went from two failed companies, you know, 17 to 23 and by between 24 and 34, I built, exited three companies.

Wow.

Like, it literally was to the day. Like, when I looked at, like, I think I closed. I started Spheric in, like, September, and I exited Clarity, my third company, in May of 2000. Whatever the 10 years later, it was 2004 to 2014. So I sold that, my last company, six years ago. And five years ago, I decided to start coaching founders just because.

Okay.

Literally started with the YouTube channels, which I give a hundred percent credit to. Travis.

Was that Houston? Yeah.

Travis Houston.

Yep.

Travis Houston. A hundred percent. I was sharing office space in San Diego where he used to work in Chuck from Digital Telepathy. Chuck Longnecker was one of our mutual. I didn't know Travis. Yep. Chuck was a buddy, said I could, I could crash it as office. He had this corner called the Fockers. Okay. Friends of Chucks.

Travis told us this yesterday. Yeah.

Did he ever tell you that?

Yesterday?

Yeah, yeah, we were having a conversation yesterday.

So that's how I met Travis. And he's the one that said, hey, man, I, I, I, I use clarity. I know clarity. And, you know, I've seen some of your videos. Have you ever thought of, like, teaching this stuff on YouTube or something? And I was like, dude, I'm not, I'm not a YouTuber.

You're not a YouTuber.

Sitting there in front of a camera. And I think he let. No, I bought, I bought this Nikon. I asked him, what camera should I get? And then I asked Chuck if I could go in on a weekend in their student. In their office and shoot.

Yep.

And it was so weird, man. I'm sitting there, camera. You know, Travis is like, put the camera in front of the light, and then the office will be the backdrop because you want to get your lighting and your audio has to be good. And I just sat there and I shot a bunch of videos answering questions that people would ask me. And that started my YouTube journey to now I've got the largest YouTube channel for SaaS founders, and I've answered 350 questions in detail. And it's all free, which I love.

Every Monday, right?

Yeah, every Monday. I haven't missed a Monday in four years.

Wow.

And then we started the Skate Velocity show every second Thursday, which is my interview show. And just have a blast doing it, man. I just love that my clients that I teach how to make millions of dollars pay me to, then I hire. I have, like, a whole team of people that produce these shows that everybody else gets to enjoy for free. It's kind of awesome.

That's so cool.

Yeah, I'd love to dive into your.

It is.

I'd love to dive into your YouTube strategy in a couple of minutes. But I'm curious what the difference between the two failed startups and then the three that you managed to exit.

Team. 100% team. I didn't even understand that was a thing. I just thought, I just write software and people use it, and that was a good idea. I mean, the real lessons learned. So maritime vacation was like Airbnb way before that. So it was. My dad had a cottage and kept answering the same calls. You know, yes, it's available. No, it's not. No, we don't let pets, blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, man, I could build a web page for my dad.

Yeah.

So I convinced my dad to give me the money to buy the server. To not build a web page, would actually build a web app. Right. Back then, you know, we didn't have Amazon. We had to buy, like, a real physical server in the software. So I built in this technology called Cold Fusion for those nerds out in the audience, because nobody. Nobody knows about anymore. It was actually one of the best web programming languages back in the day. And. And then the way I got customers is. And I struggled at first trying to figure out, like, how do I get other cottage owners on there? But my buddy Dave, and he's a burnout. Like, burnout David, what we called him.

He goes, I think there's a booklet that has all of the bed and breakfasts and cottage owners listed that tourism New Brunswick, the province I live in, puts out. And I was like, what? And I found out there was this booklet for tourists that literally had everyone. So then I paid my little brother Mo, like, three or four bucks an hour to sit there and enter in all the contact information and Microsoft Access Database. And then I created a mail merge, did a whole print off. So direct mail, before I didn't even know it was called direct mail, I was like. I was like, this makes sense. And I sent them a form letter that said, hey, maritime vacation. I'm the president, you know.

Oh, you're big.

Send me 30 bucks and fill out this form and some photos, and I'll scan them in. If you want your photos back, add an extra, extra 10 bucks and I'll send them back to you. And people started sending me stuff in the mail, like money, cash.

Oh, you're like, oh, that's real now, huh? Yeah.

They were like, I need a website. So.

Crazy times, man. So I just learned a lot about just like that back then was, you know, you got to build a team because if not, you're just working your ass off. So I kind of like the guy From@the cottage.com, i was MaritimeVacation CA. So I learned my lesson there. Think bigger people don't plan for success. That was a big idea that I'd now really crystallized in life is go to the end, plan for success, work backwards and make better decisions. And then NB Host was, you know, it was hosting, which was a zero margin business.

Right.

It's like selling salt.

A commodity type business is 100 commodity.

Like there was no margins in it. So I've learned a lot about gross margins. I'm a sucker for gross margins.

So much. I like information. Great gross margins. Yeah. And then I think the, the big thing is I, I read a book called Love is killer App that just shifted my whole life. Tim, Tim Sanders wrote this book, you know, because he was the ex CEO of Yahoo. So I was like, you know, maybe know something. And he argued for your network is your net worth. You should read and acquire knowledge for your customers. Which I thought, wow, I didn't even read for myself, let alone like research other people.

Yeah, yeah.

And then third is, he called it being a love cat, which I can never get around the term. And I've told him I've since then become friends with Tim. I've never called myself a lovecraft, but just be a good dude.

All right, fair enough.

And up to that point, I always thought business was for doggy dog world and like, you know, business people took advantage of people. It's weird mindset shit you believe, eh?

That's. Well, that's what you grow up. Right near sponge.

Like I didn't know any business people when I grew up. Like, we didn't call ourselves entrepreneurs either. I was the director of E business at Sphere, the company I started, but.

You started?

Yeah, managed till I sold it. Like I still was like my business card, my email signature. I remember I was working on the deal and the guy's like, well, who's the CEO? And I'm like, why am. He's like, why don't you say it in your email? I go, well, I like the way I can negotiate against myself. Like I literally would be like, oh, can't, can't agree to those terms. I just talked to the leadership team and they weren't on board with that. You know, like the car salesman, you know, like go get some coffee or something, come back. It's awesome.

That's Pretty awesome.

No, that's good.

Well, is that so? I'm sure you realized, okay, I'm not the best coder. I'm not the one that. To be doing this once your business is, what, three times over. Flop, flop, flop. You know, and I saw on Twitter, it was kind of funny. You. I think you wrote, I miss coding.

I do. I do miss coding.

Because it was.

It's almost like if you're a woodworker, like, there's something about being a craftsman. And this is my art now is. Is organizational development. That's the truth. I don't even. Like, I used to be more on the marketing side and the sales side. Now I don't spend that much time there. I'm more on, like, how do we build companies and teams.

Sure. So, yeah. Interesting. Okay. So we had the YouTube route. I'm trying to think of all these different, like, areas we should go and explore because I think the YouTube, you call it the authority engine. Right? Your whole. Yeah, give us the overview of that. Because I think that's something that's super applicable here to everyone and we can kind of noodle around from there.

Well, here's the big hook. I produce 12 months worth of content in six days a year.

All platforms.

Yeah. For a quarter. Right. So each quarter at a time, three times a year.

So kind of.

Yeah. Yeah.

I just. I do like 120 days at a time. Wow. But essentially what I do is I work backwards from my customers. Right. So I choose my best customers, people I love to work with. Right. I just got off two coaching calls. Emmerich@agorapulse.com and Trevor@carrot.com and I coach them. So they ask me questions and I write them down. And then what I do is three times a year, I go through my list of questions and I produce videos answering those questions because I want to track other people just like them. So that's a big idea. A lot of people answer questions, but they don't answer questions for their perfect fit customers, so they attract a lot of noise. I actually only answer questions for people that I would love that would have the problem that I would love to work with them on. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Yeah. Perfect.

And then so I shoot these like 7 minute videos right here in my studio. This is my studio. And. And then I just do the videos. Sam, my videographer, and then I have a whole team of people on the back end that works with Sam. They produce all this. The assets of the podcast, the YouTube, the blog posts, the Emails, the Instagram memes, the stories, TikTok. I've got a million, actually a little bit more now. 502,000 followers on TikTok. And I've done zero.

Oh my God.

As my son would say, zero does it with little fists because there's nothing that fits in there. I said, how much sunscreen your mom put on you today? He goes, this much.

Zero. Yo, come on, come up, Zero.

I was like, okay, let's fix that.

Yeah. So, yeah.

And so now all of a sudden it's crazy where we could take existing videos and repurpose them for new social platforms and I'm not involved. So that's the big idea is just like taking video, using it for audio, using it for transcription, using it for the different platforms edited in their native kind of format that they enjoy. And I get to give without taking a big time commitment because I see a lot of these people building podcasts and look, you can do it whatever way you want. It's just I'm always looking for what I call minimum effective dose. What's the minimum effective energy to get the output that I need?

Well, that's like us with batching. We do that same exact thing with podcasts. And we have three today, you're the second interview. But we space them out just enough so our brains are still fresh. We know what the hell we're going to talk about. They don't bleed over. So, yeah, but that's, that's how we choose to do it. It's similar to you. You can control your time a little better because you're just jam, jam, jam.

Well, and this is the reason why I didn't do interviews for three years, four years, because I, it was, I knew that the schedule was going to be an issue, but then I had to give that up. And then what I do is I batch them when I do speaking so that my hack is when I go speak at an event, I get the organizer to agree to make email intros to all the other speakers and I get a green room that they provide and I'll literally sit there and do eight to 10 interviews. That's why if you look at my escape velocity show YouTube channel, the scene changes about every 20 people because it's at different events and I only recently two weeks. So I'm queued up until 2020, I think May 2020. I still have stuff produced.

2021.

Yeah, 2021.

Yeah, 2021 isn't that crazy. But then my video guy is like, what are we going to do? If Covid doesn't open up, I'm like, well, we're gonna have to do them online.

There's always a way. Yeah.

Yeah. One thing we were noticing. We were talking about this about Travis Houston and how much of a nerd he is, where he goes and sort of breaks down, like, the entire process. And one thing he was. One thing he was showing us.

Original funnel hacker, you might say.

Remember, he's a words of affirmations guy. So we love Travis. Go for it.

I think for Travis, calling him a nerd would be a term of endearment. I think he appreciates.

He's super appreciative.

Yeah.

But one. One thing we were noticing is, like, it seems like the. The content that's below the YouTube video, the blog post, the emails that go out, the. The things that go up on. On Instagram, like, all of these things, it's pretty much the same blog post. It's just kind of in all the various places where people can possibly discover it. And we just thought that was. That was so smart to just kind of do the work once and then use it on all of the platforms.

Yeah, I really just. Like, I'm a software guy, so I, like, try to think in repeatable components. And, like, when I looked at, like, the description for Twitter could also be like the hook in a pin comment or YouTube comment. And like, the email could also be used as the description for the video, could also be used as the blog post. And then it's like. And even the, like, the TikTok edits, there's a format to how my editor does the TikTok versions versus the Instagram stories. And, like, I'm always trying to, like, kind of assetize or, like, create these different micro outputs of the assets that I have and then try to make it unique. So, like, we'll add the pre roll and post roll different on my podcast than I will on YouTube. And yeah, I don't know, it's. It's interesting, but, like, that's just the big thing about the way I think that I think is quite unique is I apply software development to business and strategy, and because of that, by that nature, everything I do has to be repeatable, scalable.

What are some other examples? Oh, good.

Yeah. Well, one of the big ideas that people ask me about all the time is like, you know, like, how do you get leverage? Right. So I have this framework called the blue. The buyback Blueprint. Okay. Here's the big premise that people need to understand about just life in general. The way it works, is we work to generate money, right? So we trade time for money and then as an entrepreneur, eventually we trade money to buy back time. Right. And then if you're good and you make money, then you trade money to make money. Okay. That's the investing side. That's why I started angel investing 14 years ago, you know, and I've invested in Intercom, Hootsuite, udemy, Unbounce and 40 plus other companies.

And you won awards as well for that? Yeah, Yeah.

I mean, 2012, I got named top angel investor in Canada. And like I was, I don't know, I'm 40 now, so like 20 something, 32 or something. Yeah. Which is crazy because the year before, my mentor, who's 70, was named number one in Canada. So that was crazy. I was like, I don't know if I deserve it. Give me a.

I had luckily made some good investments. And.

But the, the idea about the buyback blueprint, which is different because people are like, okay, you trade money to, to get time. The big difference is that I'm a big fan of, of buy hiring people to buy back your time, not hiring people to buy capacity. So this is the distinction. Okay. A lot of people will hire. I need a developer, I need a customer support person. I need a person to do my social media. I need this, I need that. Which is fine. It does accomplish. Gives you more capacity, but it doesn't free up your time.

Right.

So what happens is the entrepreneur ends up at about 12, is where it starts to feel really shitty. And you have 12 direct reports. Does that make sense? And you like wake up and you like spend more time managing other people than you actually do getting anything done yourself.

You're the middle person in every conversation.

You got all these people that need to be directed and reviewed. And usually what happens is the bigger you grow, the more pain you have because you have more of these people. And what I've discovered is no entrepreneur. I was like, growth. And then there's this line, and this line is pain. No entrepreneur will grow into pain. It's against our. And this is where you see people sabotage their business and, and make bad decisions because they. So, so for example, if you have to do the delivery of anything that you sell, you won't sell aggressively because every time you sell a new thing, you also are on the hook to deliver it. Does that make sense?

Yeah, because you're thinking subconsciously, hey, I'm going to have to actually do more work because of this thing I'm trying.

So this is what Shows up, you're slow to reply to emails. You price yourself out of a deal. You don't follow up on a lead. You do a bunch of stuff that you don't even know you're doing, but you're not as aggressive. So my whole strategy that I teach my clients, one of the hundreds, is the buyback blueprint, is you look at your calendar and you use kind of like this scorecard for time. Right. I really think, you know, there's. There's four big buckets, you know, and Gerber, Michael Gerber wrote the book that you have talked about in and on. There's the $10 task, $100 task that's working in the business. And then there's $500 and the 5,000. Okay. That's working on. And that's like strategic on the right side. And your goal is to look at your calendar and literally time block or kind of use your calendar to put everything in there to see where you're spending your time, to figure out ways to buy back the lowest value stuff that you're spending time on so that you can work on higher value activities.

So you're almost like playing a game. Yeah, yeah.

But that's the buyback blueprint. You don't hire a role or capacity. You literally hire for you so that you have more time to work on $500 hour tasks. If all of a sudden you're only working on 500 or 5,000 in a week, or even better, where I'm at where like my life is pretty much 5,000. I only do things like being on a podcast has that kind of value because you have an audience, right?

Yeah.

And even me accepting the podcast as, you know, like you have to be at a certain size in an audience or it's just not like high leverage.

Very first conversation you and I had a couple of weeks ago was like 15 minutes. And I think the only reason why we were chatting really is because, you know, we're connected in various, numerous people, you know, Travis being one of them, Roland Frazier. And you said straight up, you know, I would give away money anytime before my time. Yeah, like, it's a bad way to say that. But basically money would go away before the time.

Money is an easier. Ask for me. If you want something from me, you can ask for my money. That's a way easier thing for me to get.

Right.

I can't get my time back. And because I teach it, it's also like this great accountability thing where I don't want to be like out of Integrity, Like, I need to protect it. Like, I teach my clients to protect it. And it's just. It's just become like, what? Like right at 4:00'. Clock. Okay. When we were doing this thing, this showed up in my office as it just as an example. And I'm not trying to flex. Sometimes I feel like people are like, oh, you're such a flexer. This is what guy called me once, those tick tockers. I have a house manager that brought me my shake at 4:00 every day. Why? Because I'm not gonna go spend 10 minutes to go up to my kitchen to make a shake. Come down. Some people go, you're really lazy. I go, that's cool. Call me lazy. I don't care. I literally could give two shits less. I'm just more concerned that people don't understand the concept. If I literally take away 10, $500, like 50, 100 tasks and buy that out of my calendar so that my calendar is 102 things. I either spend time with my family and my friends, or I work. And when I'm doing either of those, I'm 100%. Like, 100% in on the family or I'm 100% in work. And when I'm working, you better believe those are $5,000 an hour tasks. Those are strategic business, like designing models, designing leadership teams, like, really important. And the way you get to that level is you slowly work away. So people always like, hey, who do I hire next? I can't tell you that. But I can tell you the process you should go through, which is audit your time and look where you're spending time on just inefficient stuff and then hire that. So just for everybody listening, if you don't have an assistant, that's your first hire. Because if you don't have one, you do have one. It's called you.

Yep. And you are the bottleneck and you are causing. There's so many collateral damage, things that.

Can happen because you're just not pushing on the gas pedal. You're literally driving with the handbrake on.

So I'm thinking of this because we looked this up at clarity, is you have your. You know, your own profile was on there, and it says $83.33, 5,000 bucks an hour.

Yep.

Well, and that's.

We did the math.

And I was like, yeah, all right. So he must.

That's not. That's not by accident.

I didn't think so. And then. And then that's what. Because I'm happy you brought this up because. So anybody listening, you value every minute $83.33. So if you're doing this time blocking thing, why not find out your per minute rate and then start using that as your time blocking, you know, calendar.

When I, when I, when I audit, like my, because I don'. I don't. I have a whole team of coaches now. But when I work with my private client, again, always, always trying to get leverage.

Right.

The cool thing is my clients, my coaches are people that I've coached, have exited companies are now back helping me with my new clients. But my private clients that I work with, we do time studies, right. And it's in 15 minute increments. Like people don't understand, like bleed time, the time between meetings. Right. The shape that bleed time. Am I going to leave and go get that and come back? That's time I took away where I want to be like onto it. I don't leave my house to run errands. Errands are the stupidest thing you could possibly do. That is $10 task at its best. Right. But most people, and it's fun because I think I'm going to write a book on this topic because when I ask people like why would you not hire somebody part time even to do some of this stuff? And they're just like, I couldn't see myself invest that money. So then it comes down to self worth.

Yeah.

They don't feel worthy of it. Ooh, that's fascinating.

So that would be more of the awareness. So you start there. So yeah, what are you worth? Like what are you doing? There's probably an audit phase.

And then here's one of the equations I teach. I got this one from my buddy Todd Herman. So full credit to Mr. Herman.

If you take the goal of your kind of like business, like let's say it's a million dollars a year, right. The value creation per day has to be $5,000. Because you're essentially saying, well, there's 200 days in a year when you take away weekends, holidays, et cetera. Right. So 200 days, $5,000 a day is a million dollar, your business. So you need to spend it. You won't make. You can't get to five thousand by doing ten dollar tasks. So no million dollar company was ever built by doing $10 tasks all the time. It's not possible. The limit is actually 300 grand. You will hit like revenues literally. If you're ask your accountant to show you his customers like revenue bands, they're like 0 to 300k, 300k to 2 million, 2 million to 10, and then 10 to 30 is usually kind of like where things settle.

Wow.

And the reason why is because you, the entrepreneur, needs to learn a whole different set of skills to get to the next level. To go from 300k to 2 million, you need to learn to work through other people. 300k is about the highest point where any normal person will be able to get leverage with their own time as a specialist.

Right.

Make sense?

Yeah, yeah. Because all you're doing is you're the specialist with little. Little fingers, little assistants out there, contractors.

70% of your time on high five. Like really valuable stuff. $100 an hour, 500 an hour stuff. Maybe you're at 250 or whatever. And then you spend all your other time on 10 tasks, which is taking up your time. And it's about. You don't learn to delegate. You need to literally learn how to delegate.

So.

So 300 is a level there. To go to 2, you need to learn how to build a team around. But then a lot of people get stuck at 2. You want to know why?

Why is that?

Because to go from 2 to 10, you now need to learn how to lead a team of people that manage the people that talk to the customer. Another layer for a lot of people they can't even wrap their head around.

Yep.

That's where those managers to take a step back, not even talk to the people that are talking to the customers, and work through my team to make sure that they get the results from the people talking to the customer. But that's the only way that you can go from 2 to 10. And the other problem, 2 to 10, is financially, there's this valley of death that occurs where you get a higher ahead of your growth. And it takes a leap of faith because essentially what happens is you work the same amount, if not more, for less profit. And it's very easy to get to three to four and go, screw this and cut it and go back to two.

That's right. Yeah. Just.

Have you ever met anybody that's done that?

Too many. Far too many. Almost everyone that's been on this show.

That's what all I do is I teach my clients to just know that these things are going to happen. If you know it's going to happen, you know it's normal, then you're okay going through it. But if you don't know that and you hit it and you're like, man, I used to work less and make more Money, this. I'm going back.

Bam. Love it.

So when you're working with your clients, are there any other sort of growth bottlenecks that you seem to be working through? Pretty frequently.

I mean, at the highest level. So I work with clients that are doing 100 million plus, and those folks, it's all mindset stuff. It's leadership. It's asking yourself, who do you need to become?

Like, if you're at a hundred million, you want to go to 500 million. You literally have to look in the mirror and say, who do I need to become to run a $500 million a year company? Because I guarantee it's not the person you are today. Because if it was, you'd be there already.

And then there's probably other sacrifices they wouldn't be willing to do. Probably time away.

It's not sacrifices. It's just. I mean, it's a sacrifice in the sense that are you willing to be uncomfortable learning a completely new approach? Because that's what's required is are you willing? So when people say sacrifice is just hard, the crazy part is the bigger you get, the less you have to do. But if you want to continue to grow, you need to do more things that are uncomfortable. Right? It's uncomfortable to build a board of advisors. It's uncomfortable to build a funding plan to fund the growth. The truth is, if you're growing fast, it's usually the sound of cash being sucked out of your business. And that's what people don't understand. It's not a bad thing. It's just expected. If you know your metrics and the business has great unit economics and you want to grow like, like, literally. One of my clients, David from Deal Machine, David Leko, amazing guy, you know, and he shared this publicly. But in our first year working together, he grew seven acts. Okay. And like that is that, like, if you're growing, just to give you context, if you grow 25% per year, every three years, you're doubling. And that means every six months, all your systems break.

Jesus.

When you're growing 7x700% in a year, like all the Inc. 500 companies, I already know what they're. I know what their days look like. I know they're literally, it's higher, higher, higher train, higher. Fire.

Wow.

Fire in the business. Fix the fire. Like, so it's. It's really. When I say, who do you need to become? You need to become somebody that can deal with bigger problems, right? If you want to be. And this is. I remember Oprah Said this once, she was getting sued by the mad cow people. Right. It's like, for a billion dollars.

Oh, that's fun.

Yeah. And somebody asked her, like, why aren't you stressed out? And she says, I'm grateful to be the kind of person that could be sued for a billion dollars.

It's a good perspective.

But that's because she got good at dealing with billion dollar problems. Most people, if they had a $10 million problem right now, it would. They'd break out into hives. They fucking. Some people consider taking their lives, which is crazy. Sure.

Yeah. Work themselves to the boat.

Got a call and said, hey, there's this tax bill you didn't know about for $10 million. It's going to ruin his day.

Yeah, probably not at all. I mean, look at Elon.

It's like literally zero. He wouldn't even flinch. He'd be like, that's unfortunate. Who. Who should be accountable for that?

Yeah.

Make sure I talk to him on our next one on one. Gotta go. Yeah, like, gotta go.

I wonder if that information would even get to Richard Branson with his, you know, the. His structure.

I actually get to spend a week with him and talk to him specifically about this.

So he described it as that. Pretty much.

No. So what you. What you learn talking to high performers is they can't really explain what they do. They just do it. Right. Does it make sense? If I meet an athlete and they've never coached somebody, they're just like, I just do it. I don't know how I do it. I just.

It's a flow state kind of thing. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, they're just, They're. They're inherently good at it. So I watched him work with Helen, his assistant, to really dial in this whole buyback block, blueprint strategy. Right. Because that's essentially. That's what he was doing. He just didn't know he was doing it. So he meets with her every morning for breakfast, and she brings only the things that she can't deal with to his attention. He gives her the feedback and then she processes and then adds it to, like, this is how I deal with that in the future kind of thing. So he pretty much runs 400 companies.

Okay.

Virgin Group of businesses. That's 400 companies. They each have their own CEOs, and they have two co. CEOs that run the portfolio of companies.

Okay. Yeah.

So he. And he refuses to sit on boards because he calls them boring. Boards are boring. When I was there, I was in Switzerland at his house, and I say, House you guys can Google, like Verbier Switzerland, Richard Branson, you'd see his chalet, 16 bedroom, staff of 12. And you know, Tim Ferriss was there, the co founder of Square. Brian from Braintree just sold it for 550 million. Somehow I got invited because of Clarity.

Yep.

And yeah, I had dinner with them and ski with them and, and, and just watched. And so while I was there, I think his name was Kevin, the CEO of Virgin America, they had just bought the new Dreamliner, the 380 Airbus or whatever it was. And he wanted to let Richard know about some changes he was gonna make on the board. Because I asked him, I was like, what are you doing here? He took a helicopter in to meet with Richard for 45 minutes.

That's crazy.

Richard didn't leave. See, that's what I'm trying to tell you.

Yeah, yeah, he came to him.

Yeah. He's like, you want to meet with me? Fine, I'm here. Come.

Had breakfast with him.

Yeah.

And when he came out, I said, what did you meet with Richard Brown? And he told me, and, and I said, so, well, why, why did you need to tell me? He goes, well, I gotta present it to the board. And I was like, why doesn't like, why isn't he on the board? Does he have to go to board meeting? He goes, no, he doesn't like to sit on boards. He literally figured out how can I do what I'm great at, which is the branding pr. Right. So Helen and I talked to Helen about this. I was like, what are the things that Richard says yes to meet? Like, anything that's going to help a company using his name get press. Okay, right, that's a. Yes. Speaking. He likes speaking in certain conditions. It's Q and A. He doesn't like to actually speak, he likes sitting down. So, so he essentially said, here are the things that I'll say yes to. Helen manages and protects his time and she even has an assistant because there's so much volume coming at him. He doesn't even have. At the point. He didn't even have a smartphone.

W. He doesn't need it. Why would he. Yeah, he doesn't want that. I'm assuming it's not.

It's. It's. If you think about it, he doesn't need it. Yeah, that's.

That's amazing. And yeah, I wonder, I'm sure his content, what, his emails, all that is just distilled through his. His talking, through Helen and through maybe.

Another assistant of Helen's, the one that reads all the emails and process them. He does say, tell him this, introduce him that most of Helen's job, she said, was just routing people to the right people on Richard's team.

Sure, yeah. Just playing directly.

I don't think it's Richard. It's not. He's like, look, I'm not. I know the CEOs of the company. Now, you want to hear a great thing he taught me about hiring?

Please.

Absolutely.

He hires CEOs. You know where he finds them? The number two at the number one company in this space.

Smart.

So he started Virgin Cruise. He went to Carnival and hired the CEO of Carnival to be the CEO of Virgin Cruise.

They know everything. They know how to manage something like.

And they'll never be CEO because the CEO is there until they leave. So that's how he gets them. Brilliant.

That's freaking brilliant. And you could do that on a micro level if you wanted to. Even with contractors or whatever it might be. Yeah, yeah.

There's so much. I mean, that's the fun part of like, you know, I've been building businesses for long, long time. And just like getting access to brilliant minds. I mean, Mark Cuban was investor in my company Clarity. Just being able to sit down. These people, my brain is always reverse engineering. It's software, right? It's like, how did they get to there? Because they have this unconscious competency that they probably don't understand. So I just need to hear enough examples of how they deal with stuff to start seeing the patterns.

Have you always had that or is.

That when it's just my brain, it thinks that way? Yeah, I used to just use it for illegal activities. Unfortunately. My dad always said you can just figure out something that's legal. I think you do pretty good in life.

Well, you were a drug dealer, right? I mean, at one point, way back in the day. I mean, isn't it sidly missed the drug dealer? They're like the best entrepreneurs out there.

Like, they figured out.

My passion in life is. One of the big parts of my life is this program called Creators where I work with at risk youth. And I tell them all the time, I was like, you guys have more business acumen than you realize. You're risk takers. You have the gift of gab, you know how to communicate. You'll run circles around these MBAs. And the truth is, is those people work for you all. Like all my executive leadership team people have business degrees. Like, I didn't go to university. They all did. I mean, my two last hired, Harvard and Stanford. It's like, it's crazy because that's the. The. What I've discovered is people that have gone through chaos when they're usually between 7 to 13, there's something that happens usually in that age bracket that shapes them typically to be okay with uncertainty and it turns out. And to deal with chaos, and it turns out that being okay with uncertainty is the foundation of what it requires to be a great entrepreneur. Because it's really about the more uncertainty. And that's why I talked about like. Like, who do you need to become? Right. The more uncertainty you can deal with, the bigger the problems you can deal with, which makes the business bigger. If you're stressed out over $10 problems, I know exactly the size of your business.

All right, So I have to say something here because you. I didn't know this before, but you were in foster care. I've said this numerous times. I fostered numerous kids and had one for 15 months even. So I know the system.

Amazing.

Yeah, it's crazy, man. So props to you as well. But now with the at risk youth that you're saying, I have this vision and it's something just from seeing so many kids go through just our home. But, you know, I want to start some kind of cause or nonprofit, connect people in high school at risk. But really I was thinking foster care, but connect them to entrepreneur mentors for them to. If they're showing the signs of an entrepreneur or they want exactly what you're saying. And I didn't know a lot of these stats. I just think it'd be really cool to have some kind of almost like a, you know, big brother, big sister kind of relationship. But for foster kids are at youth with entrepreneurship. So put it out there. That's just on the mind.

People should figure it out. The hardest thing I found because I do a lot of this work is the last mile is. Is kids are not. There's no. Like, you don't have a list. You can't. You know, it's through foster care. There's a lot of privacy challenges. And then what I do is I use entrepreneurship. And getting rich is almost like the Trojan horse, the personal development.

Yes, yes.

So I have to lead with. Come to my business course to learn how to build your business to get the kids there to then really give, you know, I call it chocolate broccoli. Like you got to give them the chocolate, which is the business advice. And try to be a baller. But. And I called the program the 420 course. You're just marketing.

You're putting all the juicy details out there that they want.

Yeah, yeah.

Brilliant.

Entrepreneurship 420. So. And then. And then you give them the personal development side. You give them the mindset, you give them the confidence builders, you give them the. The group, the peer stuff. The things that took me till I was 23, 24 to figure out.

Yeah, no, that's amazing. This is probably the last rabbit hole we'll have time to go down. But I'm curious, when it comes to investments, your track record's pretty impressive. All the companies that you've invested in, how do you go about picking the companies? Like, what's in these companies that you see that you go, okay, this is one I need to get involved in.

So here's the rule. And I learned all this from Naval Ravikant. So Naval is the founder of Angellist. He became a mentor of mine. So full credits in the ball.

But, I mean, a lot of it is the way you become a great investor is to have a lot of options. So people lose money when they're not really, like, doing it. Right. If you're looking at 100 deals and you're picking three or four, you're going to do a lot better than if you're only looking at three or four and you're doing two.

Right.

And that's. Unfortunately, people lose money. That's. That's. And that's where I was when I started off. I was 26 when I wrote my first angel investment check. I didn't even call it that. I was just like, I'm going to give you money. Please give it back.

I hope I get some more.

Yeah, like, here's some money. Can I get, like, 15% of your company? And, like, hopefully it's worth something someday. So I lost most of my money in the early days, but when I met Naval, he's the one that taught me, like, you should never give money to somebody who's not going to be successful without your advice. So a lot of people invest because they think if I'm involved, I can make them more successful. Big mistake. I literally invest in deals where the founders do not need my money or my advice. And I got to stuff it in. I literally did a deal two days ago where as soon as they said they gave me a $500,000 allocation, I wired the money that day without paperwork because I know that somebody else would probably try to take that from me. And I want my money in their bank account for them to have a weird conversation about sending it back.

Aha. Yeah. Trojan horse.

100. So I sent the money. I trust these guys, too. They're like baller entrepreneurs.

And so you want to invest in things where they're not going to need you. So that's a big one if you do that. And it's hard because you need a lot of deal flow, right? So you need deal flow. Two is I don't invest in things that I don't personally have the problem around. So you can bring to me, like, cannabis companies. Not for me because I don't smoke weed. Like, because I'm like, I used to be an addict. Like, it's pretty straightforward. Nothing against it. I think it's better than alcohol, but it's just not something I'm going to do. I don't invest in, like, cancer research stuff because I don't know it. I don't. Like, it's just not for me.

And so I only invest in things where I have the problem, and I feel it can be helpful. Third would be I only invest in entrepreneurs where I feel like every time I interact with them, I learn something because that's my real value. For me, it's. Look, I can put my money in a lot of places, make money, but if I'm going to give you money to be part of your business, it's because I want to actually learn from you. So if I change. Yeah, yeah, that's the, that's the, the. The give and take. It's. It's. And people think, well, if I'm giving them money, I'm going to give them advice, too. It's like, no, you're doing it wrong. Like, I have all the companies that have crushed it. Travis Kalanick, Uber. Like, those people teach me stuff. No, like, I don't.

And if you weren't open to that, then, like, I'm sure you're just going to lose more money and you're going to be. It's. It's like, come on.

That's where people lose their money because they invest in things that are kind of, like, iffy and they feel like with their advice and money, they'll be successful. It's like, I don't want to work that hard. I'm giving you my money and I'm putting that at risk. And now you're asking me to put my time at risk. No way, Jose. Nope, not doing it.

I love it. I love it. Anything else? Or are those like the. The pillars?

So I learned something in the early days. Performance over time. So, like, I want to see performance over time. So if I meet with you today and I meet with you in two months, I want to see some trend line.

Problem. Smart founders, it's always about the people. The idea will pivot 90% of the time and it may be 100% pivot. It might be a 30 degree private, but there's some change. Don't fall in love with the idea.

What kind of, what kind of people qualities are you looking for like true leaders or are they going to be like masters at that craft?

Whatever I'm looking for for people that have grit.

I'm looking for people that, it doesn't matter what the thing is, they're just gonna win. They're gonna be a winner. Like I remember sitting down, I forget to get founder's name of postmates. We were having a dinner and he told me, I was like, how did you end up starting the company? And he's like, well, I swam across this channel in Europe because they were in a communist country. So he like literally escaped the communist country by swimming, you know, like seven kilometers.

Wow.

Geez.

Jesus.

I don't know how many people have swam 7km to start a business, but it's very few.

It might have been that question.

I don't know how many people swam seven kilometers.

Yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean? Like that's the kind of stuff I'm looking for. I'm listening for stories of like just grit. And that's why people talk about like, why is it important to have a co founder? Well, if you can't convince one other person to follow you along your crazy idea, the chances are you're be able to build a team and be a leader is very, very slim to none.

Interesting.

It's almost like a filter.

So you can even almost look for partners, like a partnership kind of relationship in whatever startup or something you invest in, if it's a good one. Yeah, yeah.

I mean I just think it's. There's a lot of stuff I look for, but those are the big ones. And when I think of the companies I lost money on.

I think early days, I felt like if I was involved they'd be successful. So that's where I learned that lesson.

And then there were some that I invested in that I got nothing from other than the return, which didn't feel good. So that's where I was like, no, I'm gonna invest in things where I can learn. Right?

Yeah. So those are the big ones.

Those are solid. I love it. Well, I wanna make sure. What are the, Let me see, talk about the training and stuff. You offer to SaaS, founders and folks that you like to coach and train. Because I want to end it with kind of pointing people that way. And if they're into software somehow or just need to direct them your way because you're the man, give it to them.

Well, I appreciate it. I mean, so there's four big pillars that I focus on to scale companies always about repeatable scalable growth. So it's attract, convert, expand and scale. And that's, it's the ACES growth engine. The reason why is obviously attract, learn how to generate demand, convert how to convert that demand or harvest opportunities, expand. This is a big one. This a lot of people understand there's this, there's this concept in software world called expansion revenue, which is how much of your revenue comes from upsells and cross sells and overcomes the downward force of contractions and cancellations, right? So that is the game. If you have a subscription business doesn't matter if it's a gym or software, you're gonna eventually hit this thing called the churn ceiling, right? Or some people call the growth ceiling, where your ability to grow as a percent of cancellations or churn, you're not able to market the market enough to add new people just to go sideways. And that's where you hit this ceiling, right? So that's expand and that's where I focus on product pricing, packaging and plans. Thing called strategic P3. And then scale is all the people side of this stuff, right? So you know, to me there's the operating system that your business runs. And if you think about it, it's like the os, the company OS is what I call it. You have this company OS and that's what projects and strategy gets executed upon. So it's the software, it's the operating system. If you don't have the operating system, then you can't install applications, right? So a lot of people are struggling because they're like, my marketing's not working. The problem is not your marketing is you don't have a system for the operating of anything, right? You don't have communications, cadence, rituals, metrics, dashboards. Like there's this operating system level stuff. So in all four of those buckets I've created playbooks that my clients can essentially just take and deploy around. There's 12 different accelerators. So each one of those pillars have three accelerators that they can essentially say, well, what's the diagnosis of my problem? So it's like we sit down, we review kind of the business model, we say, these are the things that are going to get you the highest ROI the fastest. And then that's how I coach my clients. So like software. I built a coaching process and program that allows people to get results incredibly fast. That's the only thing that makes me happy. When people are like, Dan, you add so much value. How did I pay you back? Go kick ass. Like literally if you're watching this and you see my other stuff and you're like, Dan's amazing. I want to acknowledge, you know, thank him for his work. Go be successful and teach other people how you're successful. I don't even care if you give me credit. I literally, that is my favorite happy place in the world is just having clients crush it. Because here's what I never forget. The person that I'm working with, you guys, there's always a team behind all of you that if I help you become a better leader, all those people end up working for a better person.

That's right.

So I don't. And then the other cool part, all the customers get a better product experience. So I don't look at the hundreds of clients that I work with. I look at the thousands of employees they have and the hundreds of thousands of customers that they have that are all going to have this trick along effect of the impact of me really pushing for customer success and engagement metrics and retention and upsells and you know, just like really designing great companies and longevity just being around and you know, how do you create a company that's around in 25 years? Right? Multi generational wealth. That is a big. That's where I like to focus.

That's so cool. So how did they get there, all.

That danmartel.com call if you're a SaaS founder and you can get on call with one of my scale specialists to see if I might be able to help. But you know, at the end of the day, people should follow me on all the social media profiles to see if you resonate with me because I'm not for everybody. And if they made it this far, yeah, if they're still listening, then maybe there's a little hint that we could have some fun together. But yeah, find me on Instagram, but just message me on any of the social media platforms. And Chris on my team, literally man's chats because I get hundreds a day and he'll ask you a few questions and then get you on a call.

Awesome. Dan, you've been a blast, man. And I mean there's like so much more we could have Covered, But I love how it shaped up.

Cool. I appreciate the time. You guys are awesome. I love the way you guys are showing up and value you're adding in the world and all the cool people you guys get to hang out with. I'm a little jealous.

Hey, you're right there, man. Enjoy your boat. See you, buddy. All right. Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Thanks so much for tuning into that episode. I hope you dug it. I know Joe and I dug it. I actually kicked Joe out of the room. He's not here right now. Because I wanted to tell you about a tool that I really, really dig. We use it in our business. We recommend it all the time. It's called Easy Webinar, and it's a tool that lets you do live webinars, automated webinars, hybrid webinars, and, you know, pretty much any other kind of webinar if, if there are other kinds of webinars. But anyway, this tool is kind of like your all in one, do it all tool for anything webinar related. It's Easy Webinar. It's put out by a dude named Casey Zman. He's been on the podcast. If you haven't listened to that episode, it's a killer episode. He's a really smart dude, but his software is amazing. It does everything. It's, you know, the title tells you exactly what it does. It's an easy webinar platform, and we use this in our business to run automated webinars all the time. We don't do a lot of live webinars these days. We like to do the kind of automated webinars where somebody can register and then it, you know, they can either watch it like 15 minutes later or they can watch it the next day, but it's just kind of always running. And it's a system that helps us make autopilot sales off of our webinars. Super cool tool. If you haven't tried it yet, you know, it's, it's. It's an amazing tool. And Casey is actually hooking you up. He said, for listeners of Hustle and Flowchart, I can't believe he's doing this, but he said for listeners of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, he's giving 25% off of. Of the membership to use Easy Webinar. It's already super, super inexpensive for what it does and all the cool features it has. But he's hooking you up with 25% off because you're a listener of Hustle and flowchart. Go to easywebinar.com hustle. That's where you can get that 25% off discount. That's easywebinar.com hustole. It's a awesome tool. You're gonna dig it. So just go grab it. Check it out. Easywebinar.com hustle. See? No, not see ya. You'll hear me in the next show. I don't know. I don't know how to close these things. Go get easy Webinar. Talk to you later. Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. Before taking the time to listen, we want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a CliffsNotes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

Go get it.

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