Daniel Daines-Hutt — Using Psychological Triggers To Get Maximum ROI From Content

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float Shark with your boy. My boy Matt Wolf and Joe Fit. Hey, we're back.

Hey, we're back again.

We're back. You know what I like to do is I always wait until Joe's, like, not ready to record, and then I just hit record and I go, hey, Joe. And then Joe, like, has to run over to the microphone really quick and be like, oh, we're recording.

Yeah.

Almost stepped on your dog in the process, man.

Yeah, well, that would have been your fault.

Not the dogs.

Nope, nope.

Not the one laying in the middle of the water.

How is it my dog's fault? Who is literally sleeping in between of us, Right?

I see her eyes moving.

Okay, well, she's twitching between us.

Twitching in her sleep.

Okay.

It's always creepy when you look at dogs and they have those, like, second eyelids.

She definitely sleeps with her eyes open. I've seen.

I think it's a second eyelid thing. It's creepy, man. It looks like they have no eyes. You're like, oh, God, what happened to you? Shit. All right, carrying on, carrying on. What are we doing here?

All right, dude.

Whoa. What?

This episode was badass.

Yes, I would agree with this.

I nerded out so much during this episode, but because this person, Daniel, I was acting like I didn't know his name for a second.

This person?

This person? No, I felt like I needed to keep it secretive. And then there was gonna be a big reveal at the end, but they.

Clicked on the name of the title of this episode.

I'm like, why am I doing this? But no, we've got Daniel Danes hut on the show today. And in this episode, we talk. I mean, the big concept is content marketing, which is our world, this is where we operate, is creating killer content that facilitates the sale of a product and growing our list and all of that stuff off the back of content. And what I. So going into this call, what I was expecting was like sort of like a process, like a content marketing strategy to get content online and grow your list and sell stuff. And we did. We got a lot of that. What I wasn't expecting was a deep, deep, deep understanding of all the psychology behind why all of it works.

Yes.

And that was what was so killer about this episode, was, you know, a lot of the stuff he was talking about in the content marketing world, some of it is stuff we've done, some of it is brand new stuff that we need to test. But what I was found insanely valuable was like, this deep understanding of why this works.

If you understand that, then you understand where the content should live in this whole customer journey, in the psychological path. It's like the Euro's journey almost. And he breaks down why this all happens, Literally explaining the parts in your brain and everything. But then how that can translate into every single piece of content you create, including ads to content to opt in pages to sales pages, webinars, follow up emails, all that stuff. It follows a very simple kind of format. He actually gave a couple of them and broke down very, very specific details and ways that you can apply this. It's cool, man. And Daniel, we'll be doing it round two. And he's another one that cold reached out to you. He had probably the best pitch ever.

We talk about on the episode.

Yeah. So I'm not gonna say any more than that, but it's very rare that we bring people on who pitch us. And the fact that he freaking smoked it, man. And then when he got on the podcast, it was even better.

And there was a lot of stuff we didn't even cover. And make sure to check out the show notes on this one, by the way.

Yes.

He lays out some amazing tools. He lays out. There's a couple articles, or at least one of them. It's long. It's like a book.

Yeah. Get this. So for every $1 that he spends on Facebook ads, he makes $22 back. So $1 in, $22 back. If you knew you can do that, how much money would you pump into Facebook ads?

All I can find.

$1 trillion. You know, like as much as you possibly can until you reach a limit and it stops working. Right. He's doing that with content.

Yes.

He's not driving him to a sales page. He's not driving him to an opt in page. He's driving him to bl.

The sales pages isn't even the best right now. And it's a very expensive product that like it takes a long time to sell.

Yeah.

So you think about all that. He's like putting up all the barriers you can think of and he's still crushing it with this content forward approach.

Yeah, no, it's really good. He breaks down all of this. You know, we talk about how to structure the content, the psychology behind the content, how to craft your call to action for the content, where what your opt in form should look like to get the highest conversion rate on crazy list, getting people to opt in from that, how to structure your Facebook ads to drive people into the content. This is a complete a to Z path that you can follow to add a content marketing list building sales strategy into your business.

So.

Are you ready to start getting seen in your niche and bringing targeted traffic to your website every day?

Are you reading that off the back of our book?

Yes. Hope so. You're about to learn the following.

What's our book called again?

The Evergreen Traffic Playbook.

And where did you say we can get it again?

We can get it and you can get it and I can get it@evergreenprofits.com trafficbook. Yes, that is evergreenprofits.com trafficbook.

Right. What was it again? One last time.

Oh, yeah, the third time. That's right. Third time's the charm. Evergreenprofits.com traffic book. Cool. It's perfect. It's great. And that book lines out exactly about pretty much what I was talking. And there's a lot more on the back cover. I'm not gonna read it.

All right. Joe's reading the back cover because he has no clue what the book's about.

No lying, dude.

No. Honestly though, if you were to take the stuff that we teach in our traffic book, like how to drive traffic to content and do our whole retargeting and SEO strategy, that's a whole other thing we talked about. We touched on SEO in this episode and how to get backlinks to your episode. I totally forgot we even talked about that because he had so much stuff. But if you were to combine his sort of traffic strategies and his content strategy and our traffic strategies and sort of like merge those together like this is a multimillion dollar per year content marketing media company business strategy.

Hey, tigers. Or Matt, you might have to lower my. Because that was my brain exploding with the best marriage of those two concepts together.

So go grab our book, evergreenprovidence.com trafficbook and, you know, listen to this episode about how to just craft killer content. And then check out everything that Daniel has to offer. We're link up some blog posts that he wrote that like, go even deeper on this stuff. And the dude's a beast. Holy mother of the dog.

Wow.

I don't know why I said that.

What's the name of her mother?

You know, it's funny when we do these.

These know the name of her mother?

I do not know. Oh, yeah, she's a mud.

But doesn't matter. They all have mothers too.

Yeah. Anyway, you're just. You're just trying to screw with my head right now, so I'm gonna do to me. I know we do this to each other. In our intros, we just screw with each other and then.

What are you gonna say? I cut you out?

I was gonna say that we should just go talk to Daniel.

Nothing. You were gonna say anything. Let's go talk to Daniel. Because the thing is long enough as it is and it's packed good stuff, so you're gonna love it. Okay, see you there.

Love you, Joe.

Love you.

Hey, Daniel, thanks for hopping on the show with us, man.

Thank you so much for having me, guys. I'm pumped.

Yeah, man. Well, you are a long time listener from your email.

Thank you. I appreciate you for one for doing that or just listening. And yeah, you reached out to us and it's probably the best or is the best email. Like we were telling you right before hitting record. We're like, holy shit, this guy does so much. And he was very specific with everything you do and the fact that you're a listener. It was a no brainer to bring you on.

Yeah, I mean, well, from the email that you sent, we were kind of talking about this before we hit record. But the email you sent, I got the email, I read it, I went, man, this guy just. He's got his pitch down. And I sent it to. I forwarded the email to Joe and I said, hey, I'm booking this guy. You cool with that? And he replied back. He's like. He read the email and went, holy crap, yes, let's get this guy on the show. And I went, good, because I already booked him before he even said yes.

He was getting antsy.

Ask for forgiveness, not permission, Right?

Exactly, exactly.

So you're in New Zealand, right? I think if I remember correctly, you're in Papamoa somewhere, right?

So we're in Mount Manganui, which is a couple of miles down near the base of the mount. Because you've been here before, right?

Yeah, a few times.

Yeah, yeah. So we're just at the base of like a dormant volcano, which is really cool, on a peninsula. I actually got my residency yester, so I am now a New Zealand resident, a permanent resident.

Where are you from originally?

I'm from England, but I've been traveling for like nine years. So I spent time in the States, Germany, France, Canada, up in a ski resort and. Yeah, and then we ended up here and fell in love with the place.

It's interesting because we know quite a few people that live in New Zealand. My old business partner actually lives in New Zealand and almost everybody I know who's lives in New Zealand is British.

A lot of transplants. Yeah.

Well, Papa Moa, they call it Pomamoa because there's so many Poms, English people there. Which is kind of crazy because the price of a house up there as well, you can get like a three bedroom swimming pool for what you pay for a flat kind of like further down. It's much cheaper land and things. But it's a really, it's a really unique place because there's so many like hustlers in this one town. Some of the biggest clothing companies in New Zealand, they all live here. Like the owners, some of the biggest software companies are all here. I'll be talking to readers of ours or students and they'll mention someone.

Who'S from New Zealand who created some kind of software. And I'm like, I bet they live in our town. I'll do a Google. And they're like, yeah, six miles away.

All right, well, let's do an experiment. Do you know Josh Bartlett?

The name rings a bell.

So he developed a tool called EZ Video Player and Easy Video Suite. And most recently he made a tool called ThriveCart, which is a checkout cart platform.

They're based down in Wellington, right?

No, he's in Teronga somewhere. He used to be in Papamoa. He moved recently, but he's still in Teronga. He's like a different sort of suburb of Taronga.

No way. I'm going to make a note now because that's someone I need to have.

Coffee, you know.

Yeah, he's actually my old business partner. He's the reason I've been to New Zealand a few times. So he's out there and then there's another guy out there named Dean.

Dean. I don't know his last name, but. Convert Box.

Yeah, he made a tool called Convert Box, which is like an opt in software. I think he might be Hamilton, but I'm not 100%. I don't know where he lives. I don't know him nearly as well as I know Josh.

It's crazy. It's such a small world. I know with. So I used to snowboard a lot. So if you snowboard him and you go live in a surf town, you're gonna meet the same people because they have similar interests. But it is absolutely crazy. I remember we used to run an SEO agency way back in the day. And I remember looking at my competitors, who's ranking, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I look and I'm like, hang on, this is a guy I surf with. I surf with this guy earlier today.

It's such A bizarre world. It's all the Matrix.

Yeah. No, it is. And that's like, how it is in San Diego here, too. In La Jolla and along the shore, you get a lot of snowboarders, but then you get a lot of entrepreneurs out there.

Yeah.

And same idea. Like, I used to run a lot of those circles. Still do. But don't go out in the water.

Nearly that part of town by Mount Manganui, Taronga. That area, very, very, very similar climate to San Diego. Just opposite time of the year.

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, that's cool.

But no, I love that place. It's beautiful. I think my favorite place I've ever traveled in my life is actually south island, but Queenstown, like, just absolutely amazing. If you haven't been there yet.

I still haven't been. This is the thing. Our residency took six years and, like, a lot of money and a lot of applications. We moved town, we moved cities, everything. So we've kind of been limited on what we can do. You know, we've done camping trips and things. And we actually have some friends that we used to live with in Whistler who built a house down in Queenstown and who live down there. So it's this winter. We're gonna head down and actually get out the snowboard bag and stuff and go enjoy it.

Such a. Such a great part of the world. Actually, I'm looking at New Zealand right now.

We are looking at pictures.

I actually have a picture that I have a photo that I took and had blown up, and I have it hanging on my wall of. It's actually down in Queenstown with me, my wife, Josh Bartlett, and Josh's wife.

That's crazy.

Down there. Soon.

You know what's weird is I probably met him and just didn't realize.

Yeah, I'm sure you have.

He's another. Another British guy who lives in that same area.

Yeah.

You got me intrigued. Now, you've moved all around the world. You've had an SEO company. What's the background look like for you? I'm sure it's all right. So crazy.

I went to university as a mechanical engineer. Engineering design. Because I'm quite scientific, mathematical background, but I'm also quite creative. So I did that. I got a job doing it, and I was like, this sucks because you end up never doing the thing that you're supposed to. I was doing. I was in a design department, and rather than doing design, they were giving me files that were like a four and converting them into a three. And I was just doing that. You could literally code something to do it for you with a couple of clicks. And that's all I was doing. So I left.

Summer camps in the States, came back, went to Canada, lived there for a while with my partner Freya, and we were in New Zealand and I was too old to apply for another visa. And so we're trying to look for loopholes, how to stay in the country because it's gorgeous. And we didn't get it because the criteria changes all the time. But at the time, there was an opportunity to get an entrepreneurship visa. And I'd never done anything, never read any books. I think I'd listened to Pat Flynn a few times. And I worked in retail and I saw there was an opportunity for kind of like surf, tourist clothing. So I took a lesson on Photoshop on YouTube. Then I designed a T shirt and put it on Facebook. I woke up the next day to like five sales. So I had to figure out how to actually print the things and ship them. Lost money straight away. But we saw it was possible. Right. I was no longer trading kind of hours for dollars. Within five weeks, we're in five retail stores. It's quite sneaky how we did it, so we didn't have any leverage, obviously, trying to get into the stores. So what I would do is I would advertise to like a three mile radius around the stores, our product, and then told people to go in and ask for the product. It's not stocked. So the stockists then came to us and said, hey, do you want to stock in our stores? Because we're getting lots of demand. Right.

I love that.

That worked really well. I got to quit my job.

Started focusing online. I started working with Glenn Alsop and those guys, learning SEO Viper Chill. Guys started doing really well with sales online. People started asking us how we were doing it. So then I would help a couple of businesses with SEO. Started getting into retargeting. I wrote a case study about a campaign that we did. That case study ended up being one of the top 10 of all time on inbound.org and then I started writing a couple of other guides about this. I learned a lot about direct response. Quite empathetic with people, I think, from the years in retail. And yeah, we started doing ridiculously well. Like our content was doing better than content marketing blogs. And so then we started talking about that and why it was working well. And then I set up this new site with my partner Freya. Long story.

Yeah.

So what's the actual business model now? Like, how does you know you're obviously making content. You're really good with the marketing. What's the monetization model?

So at one point, we had $3 million in client requests in two weeks. Yeah. For a small agency. I totally burnt out. Didn't know how to manage it and things like that. And it didn't really fit with my business model.

Put on like 35, 40kgs kind of thing. Drinking four Red Bulls a day wasn't great. But we have to make these mistakes to figure out what it is that we actually want. Right. So all of this, how we write content, how we promote it, all this other stuff. We used to have internal training documents that we use for interns, and we had a lot of people ask about it. So I did a small beta sale where I took some of our readers through it. They loved it, they got crazy results. So then I improved it and we turned it into a product. Now we basically, we just blog and get traffic and then we accept members onto this course, basically. I do a little bit of consulting now and again, but it's not cost efficient. It's more beneficial for me to do stuff on our website than it is to do it for someone else's.

Yeah. And that's similar to, like, us. We used to kind of go out. We did the agency route for a while and experimented like crazy. And just like, no, no. And you build this machine and then if you just hone in on your own machine and feed whatever you're pointing that to, then you're going to freaking crush it. Way better than dealing with clients and all this other external stuff you don't really control much.

Well, we had this thing when we were running our agency where we had all these clients and we just charged a flat monthly retainer. We were their content marketing team and we charged $5,000 flat monthly retainer just to manage all their content, making sure there was consistent release schedule and the costs were getting amplified and all that kind of stuff. And we, like, the better we did the, you know, we didn't see any of the improvements. Right. We made $5,000. Whether we helped make this company a million dollars that month or whether we helped make that company, you know, $12,000 that month, we didn't see much of the upside. And so what we actually started doing was the exact same thing that we were doing for our agency clients. We actually started doing it on an affiliate basis so we would find a product that we wanted to get behind, build out this entire content marketing system for this product as if it was our Own product or a client's product. And then we would just use affiliate links. And, you know, when we started doing that, we were making like, four times as much per month off of this affiliate revenue than what we were making off of the client. Stuff work as well.

Right. Like, you are dealing with, like, reports and calls and things. It's the hardest thing about running an agency is you spend most of the time talking to the clients about stuff that isn't doing the work.

Right.

Yeah.

It takes you away from the work or learning, experimenting, all this stuff. And you're right. Yeah. I think that it was the minutiae, the admin work. Like, this sucks. This is not why we're in business.

And we had one or two clients that sort of, like, ruffled some feathers with us, and we kind of went, man, this client really took a lot out of us. And there was just a few sort of catalysts that made us go, you know what? We just don't want to deal with clients anymore.

That's it. I would get calls at like, 4 in the morning, and we'd be running paid ads for people, and they'd be like, our website hosting is down. I'm like, well, I'm not your web host.

We can turn the ads off. That makes total sense to turn the ads off. But, you know, would not just call your hosting company. And again, there is people who do it very well. It's just it didn't align with me, and I didn't have the skill set in place or the experience in place to actually sort all that out. And still things we're figuring out now. But you do have to kind of make those mistakes to learn.

Right. You do. And yeah, that is a good disclaimer to say, you know, there's a lot of people that love that kind of work and agency we've had, like, Lee Goff is a big agency guy. We had him on the show, and he crushes it, and he has a great system. So if that's your thing, props to you. Cool. Do it. So this is a different route that we all took. Yeah. You know what caught our attention? This whole big list that you sent us was this. You know, for every dollar you spend, you make 22 bucks on anytime you promote these blog posts, these pieces of content on Facebook. Well, the fact that to cold audiences.

And just to add to that, the fact that you mentioned this is driving traffic to content. It doesn't sound like you're driving paid traffic to, like, directly into a sales letter. It sounds like you're driving content into or driving traffic into content and getting those kinds of ROIs.

This is true.

Let's dig in on this. This is where we're super pumped about this conversation.

So I was listening to your latest episode and I apologize, I cannot remember the gentleman's name now, but he's talking about SEO. Sorry, affiliate marketing.

Stephen is at Kiss, I believe that's it.

Yeah. And guys getting a lot of traffic and stuff from there back in the day. So platforms, media platforms.

They'Re not always perfect. So back in the day if you wanted to rank for a keyword, if you had the keyword on your page more than someone else, you were number one. So people would put like white text on a white background and then rank. People didn't know how to filter it all out. I think the same is happening for like Facebook nowadays where they, if they have a bad user experience, they will lose their entire platform. So people will go to somewhere else. It's why MySpace died and things. So they're an entertainment platform and so they're trying to get people entertained rather than pitched all the time. It's fine if it's like, like, like you guys were saying you've got someone in and you were targeting them with a pitch or webinar. Makes total sense because they're warm. But to a cold audience it's more difficult unless you've got an amazing sales page. But it's also Facebook is pushing towards that now where they want people to be having a good experience. The funny thing is that article that I was talking about, this huge article about running paid ads to content, I'm now running paid ads to that article and it's performing even better than the case study that we talk about in the article. So right now I'm getting email opt ins for $1.50 US. No, sorry, $1.50 New Zealand, which is a dollar US. So that's a subscriber from content. We can afford to spend $22 per subscriber, like with our current churn rate, conversion rate, things like that.

So yeah, it works pretty well. And not only that, it means that we're getting that content out in front of new people. So it's generating organic backlinks and things and shares. So it's also driving more people. A lot of people are sharing our adverts because the advert is valuable, but also the content that it leads to is valuable. Things like this. So yeah, we're pretty lucky. I'm very happy with it. The only thing right now, like I Said before, the call is, I'm just trying to improve our conversion process because it makes no sense to be spending all this money. If we convert. I'll be fully honest, we're converting about half a percent, which for like, high ticket products and things is about average. But I know Brendan Dud this amazing article on Growth Lab where he's talking about this email sequence he did, and he got it up to like 8.4% conversion rate. Yeah. And so I've been following the stuff that he does in there and improving hours and also, you know, we kind of threw the stuff together and we're improving it. Yeah, yeah. That's where my focus is right now. But again, I apologize. I am three coffees deep. I will go on tangents and things.

But you're fine, man.

You're anything at all.

This is the time to ask it. Just give you everything.

Yeah, I mean, like, you have no idea how much we're nerding out right here just based on the fact that you know your damn numbers. Because you have no clue how many people we talk to that are in businesses that literally couldn't tell us what the value of one lead on their list is or what the value of one new customer is or how much they can afford to pay to get a lead on their list. Most people don't know that. And I think what makes us successful, what makes you successful, what makes Steven is at Kiss successful, is that we all have a very, very firm grasp on our numbers. And once you have that grasp on your numbers, it makes life so much easier because now everything is just a math problem. How much. How much dollars could I put into this to, you know, before I hit my maximum load with it?

Well, you'll sleep better at night as well. Holy things, right? And a lot of people don't know it. I was helping. So I go to the gym in the middle of the day. You end up having conversations like, do you not have a job? Kind of thing. How can you come to the gym in the day? And I tell them what they do, and I end up helping with some Facebook ads. These guys turn their ads off that we set up and we looked at it, and they were actually making $17 for every $5 spent. And then 10% of those people will convert into a year membership at like $1,000. So I was like, you're actually making like 300 bucks right now for every dollar you spend. But because they didn't know the math and because they got scared, they're spending money. And yes, Their sales are coming in, but they're like, oh, this could be. I put a flyer at the local supermarket. I did this, or I did this. No, these people came in, they clicked, they paid for the website. We see the ad to the button to this. And a lot of people are in that position. They don't know what a customer is worth, and they don't know how to measure the performance of an ad either. So I don't know.

I'm trying to think. I want to say Waitrose, but it's not. There's a guy in the US who set up a supermarket, and he said, half of my advertising is working, but I just don't know which half. I heard this, but you don't have that anymore. If you study direct response, if you actually measure for people who don't know, direct response is kind of. It's about the psychology of getting someone to take an action, and then it's the math of measuring how much it costs for the action to be taken.

Right.

So I'm curious, how do you. How did you arrive at the number? Because we're on that. We're in the same boat where, you know, we. We know exactly what it's worth to us to get one new person on our list. We know that for every one person on our list, we make about $50 off of between 50 and 100. Actually, we did a few models, and various models came up with different numbers, but it was between 50 and $100, which. Either number is still pretty. You know, we're happy either way. So I always kind of err towards the lower end. But we know we make about $50 per person that is on our list over the lifetime. So that's like, you know, we might recoup that over 12 to 18 months, but the lifetime value of one person just joining our list is roughly $50 plus. Now, we came to that number because we use a tool called Wicked Reports, which constantly spits out all this data for us. I'm curious how you come up with that number.

It was quite simple for me because we only have one offer, and we only have one method of people buying that helps. We have people who become subscribers, and then if they subscribe to a specific list over time, they made an offer. So if I know the number of people coming into that offer and how much they convert, I mean, I know the cost of how much it got to get them in there, we can do those conversion rates. That was a terrible example.

So if I. If I know how many people it takes to make a sale, and the sale is worth X. Then I'm like, okay, well, per person, I can afford to spend that much amount kind of thing. That's basically what it is. And reverse engineering it, it's how many people do I need to make one sale? Which at one point, if it's half a percent, that means I need 200 subscribers to make a sale. Okay, well, how much is the value? And that means how much I can afford to spend per subscriber. And then I know how much I can afford to spend per visitor because I know how many visitors turn into subscribers and things like that. So it helps me measure different traffic channels and see the benefits. So it's very basic pirate maps. I think they call it pirate.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, that's good.

That's better than most people. And that's probably the best way to start to be honest for anybody, because the fact that ours is a little bit more complicated. We sell a ton of different products and other people's products, so we can't track it perfectly. Hence why we do a little conservative estimate on ours. But yeah, and that's why we use wicked reports. Gets us really super targeted into all these different marketing channels too.

Those guys do great content as well.

Holy moly. Yeah.

Well, I kind of want to drill down on your strategy. Unless, Joe, you had something else you want to dig into. I feel like I'm about to go into drill down mode.

We're on the same wavelength. You already took the question out of my head about how you run your numbers. I'm curious about breaking down this Facebook approach, just since we put it out there.

Well, so I'm trying to think of the best order because I wanted to dive into the actual mechanics of the content and the opt in and everything that goes onto the page you're driving them to. But then I also wanted to dive into the actual Facebook advertising side of things and kind of, you know, kind of break it up into those two parts.

So what makes up good content? How you capture them on your list and follow up. And then after you get that foundation laid, how do you drive that traffic?

Exactly. I feel like those are kind of the two sort of areas that we can really, really deep dive in. So easy.

Let's start with the content. Yeah. What makes good content?

I'm glad you brought it up.

So our big thing is teaching people how to leverage content. You got to promote it, basically, because it's a faster ROI, usually, but it's also a compound roi. So the more you keep Promoting a lot of the stuff that we learn online for small businesses is not based around small businesses. So we'll copy big media companies who have a big team which a lot of content and we try and copy that, but we can't keep up with the volume and we can't keep up with the quality and things. You're better off, if push comes to shove promoting a post you've already got than writing something new because it goes out in front of new people instead of just entertaining the people you've already got. So a big thing if you want to succeed is obviously the content has to be good because if you promote it, no one is going to care. But it's not just that, it has to be effective. So every article that we create has a specific opt in method. We call it a hyper specific next step offer.

My lowest opt in rate is 17% of readers and my highest right now is 86%. So 86 out of 100 readers of that article will become a subscriber.

Wow, that's insane.

That's really, really impressive.

Well, the industry standard opt in rate is 2%.

We're getting about 7% between 7 and 8% on our content opt ins and we thought we were kicking butt with it.

The thing is, as well as you scale and you get more traffic, you're going to get more people who aren't quite right for your offer or your content. They just kind of found it and they bounce off and whatever.

Sure.

So that 86% opt in is for an article that's only had about 600 readers so far. You know, it's quite new, but it's got 550 subscribers from it kind of thing. So that will drop down and it'll probably, on average most of them are about 20%. The reason it works so well is the content is very effective, it's very valuable, it's very actionable. So people want to share, they build a lot of trust around you and usually it's building desire to take an action. If we think of content, there's two types. You've got entertainment and you've got education, basically. So a lot of media sites are doing entertainment. This is what happened this week. This is 10 things Batman taught me about SEO, blah blah, blah. Whereas education, educational content is usually someone has a pain and they want to change it. It's a transformation. A lot of people don't have calls to action at all in their content and I apologize. There's a truck coming past, so there will be a bit of noise.

Oh, you're good. Yeah, your mic's good. Didn't even pick it up.

Okay, sorry. So a lot of people miss a call to action. They don't have any call to action. And if they do have it, it's generic, which sometimes gets conversions, but not always because if you think someone is googling or they're searching, they have a specific pain point and they come to an article and that article is telling them about the pain point and what the problem is and the transformation they need to go through to get rid of it.

Right.

Your opt in offer has to be the next thing. You just got them so excited about this thing, this change, and then you're like, hey, do you want my 10 tips on how to do this? I'm like, no, I'm interested in this thing I'm doing right now. And so if you don't have that, what do they do? They go and try and find it. So they go to a competitor, you've got them basically super excited to take an action and then you've given them no action to take that's relevant. So it has to be hyper specific and unique to every piece of content.

Do you have some examples of what type of hyper specific opt ins you're using to get people to join the list?

I try and empathize with the person and think what is the next thing they want to take? Sometimes my opt in offer isn't amazing.

I might talk. So you've got a 5,000 word post telling people how to, I don't know, set up a Facebook ad. But the opt in could be, hey, I've got a checklist of this. It's much shorter because it doesn't have all the filler of the article. Plus there's like three 2 minute videos showing you how to set up your retargeting pixel. Do you want it? Yeah, of course. You know, it's, it's much easier for me to take action from that thing than it is to read the article again.

It's like almost like the next best step. Or maybe a summary of that thing. Yeah.

Yes. So it could be, it could be. Sorry for the noise. It could sometimes be a checklist, it could be a video. It doesn't have to be anything huge though. That's the key thing. It has to be something that they want next and something they can take action on. The crazy thing is these people will opt in. Less than 10% will actually use the thing. But it's absolute madness. I had one that was broken. I didn't Realize once I got the bonus the video was there was a wistier issue and it wasn't showing on the page with like a new plugin, thousands of people opted in and only one person told me, doesn't surprise me.

I mean we see the same. I think everybody sees that.

Unfortunately it's kind of crazy. And if you can get people to go and take action, if you follow up with them, you'll find you'll get more chance of increasing the sale as well. Because you're trying to get someone to become a customer. So you need to create small wins and transformations in that person, ideally to make them more likely to become a customer when you make an offer.

Sure.

But anyway, so these offers are hyper specific, they're unique, they are the next step they want to take. Then there's some psychology behind it as well. So if you have multiple forms to fill in for every line that you ask for details, it's kind of like a 10% drop in people who will actually go and do it. So the less forms you have, the better. So I only ever ask for the email. Crazy thing is once they've given the email, if you ask for that information afterwards something like 40% more likely to go and fill it all out because they've already done it. Investor Carrot blog went from something like 17 forms to just one and then they asked for the other 16 afterwards they got a 40% lift in opt in rate but they got something like a 90% conversion to sales. They lost only. So they got more people taking the action, they got more leads. We only saw a slight drop in conversions after the fact. As in like from subscriber to sale.

Right.

Because they were still getting high quality leads, just higher, higher volume.

So yeah, and your quality, if you get them right in the beginning like that, the more you know, they're the hottest lead you could possibly do. If you take them to a next action like a form or maybe like an audit or something like that where they have to fill in some details.

And suddenly your offer is not based on price, it's based on you are the right person for that, you have the right solution for that person. So now it makes no difference.

Another thing is if you so commitment and consistency principle, if they fill out one form that they're more likely to fill out the next. If you ask for it, if you actually take the form off the page, you'll even get higher opt ins so saying hey, I've got these videos, you want it? And they click the button that says get it and then the form appears again. They're 40% more likely to fill out the first form and then the next forms if you want them an opt in. So just understanding these little principles will get you higher opt ins.

Go back to that really quick.

Can you explain that concept again? I didn't quite catch what you were trying to say there.

So in psychology we have this thing called commitment and consistency. I'm a big neuroscience like behavior science nerd. Right. So people.

If they take, they want to stick to something that they've already chosen because they don't want to break out away from it because then they would feel like they are lying about who they are as a person. It goes into all this different stuff. It's why we, it's why like we stay away from the jocks when we're like the golf, but then they hang around with other goths because we're still in a tribe kind of thing like this. We are committed to that kind of thing.

Yeah. So you said you removed something and I didn't quite grasp what you said you removed.

So some people will have the form on the page. Enter your email here. You can get the thing.

Gotcha. How do you collect the email if you remove that?

So LeadPages has a function called lead boxes and you can have it from a text function. So when you click the text, suddenly the box appears on the page like a pop up.

Right.

Okay, now I'm following along.

You're just taking an action through the copy or maybe you give them a button or some option to click. So that's a, that's a commitment, a minor commitment there because they're saying I want that thing.

And then they're so much more likely, especially if you're only asking for just the email afterwards. I think Nia Ial is the guy who wrote Hooked. He talks about how to create like addictive software and stuff.

Yeah, yeah, that's been recommended here in the show. Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

You're more likely to get someone to take an action if you can make it simple. So going back to the email that I sent you guys with the pitch, rather than just saying could I come on the show, I gave examples of topics I could talk about. But I'm good at that. I know your audience would enjoy. I gave examples, I gave multiple choices and stuff. So not only would I be a good guest for your show, but I made it so easy for you to say yes because you didn't even have to think of the topics. Exactly. That's huge.

And you gave us options and details and proof and links to check out deeper. Yeah, all that.

That's it. So it's the easiest you can make someone to take an action, the more likely they are to take the action.

Gotcha.

I really nerd out on this stuff.

Oh, yeah, trust me, like, you're speaking our language. This is. This is where we operate too. You know, our content marketing Strategy is really 90% podcasting and like 10% written content. But we pretty much follow a fairly identical model as far as create a ton of great content, give people something unique to opt in. For every one of these episodes that we do on our podcast, we make what we call an episode companion, which is essentially cliff notes from the episode. So super, super, ultra relevant to what they just consumed. And then that's exactly how we're growing our list as well.

And it's totally psychological. Like, you were describing everything along the path of how they discover us to the point of them actually purchasing something from us. Everything in between is a very congruent path. It's segmenting and it's based off of their actions. So it sets you up for an easier win if you just line out your whole process that way.

Yeah. I'm curious about the actual copy of the blog post. I know you mentioned you can use existing blog posts and just kind of work with what you have as well, but how do you infuse persuasion into it? Because I'm a strong believer that if you're putting content on the Internet and you can disagree or agree, I'm curious on your thoughts on it, but I'm a strong believer that you have to have a very good blend of education and entertainment. If you're too entertainment focused and not value focused enough, people won't ever really see you as that. Go to expert that you know they want to buy from. And if you're too heavy on the education element, people will just kind of see you as dry. And you know that they won't buy.

From you because you're not asking them, you're not persuading them.

But when you find that good blend of like, this is educational and entertaining, that edutainment kind of concept, once you find that good blend, that, in my opinion, is where the magic happens. So I'm kind of curious your thoughts on that. And also, what sort of elements do you make sure are in every blog post?

All right, I totally agree. Everyone loves the clown, but not everyone wants to buy from the clown.

To sell online, we need certain factors. We need to have authority we need to have trust. It helps if we build reciprocity. As in, the person already has value and they want to pay it back to us. Things like this. Because there's an emotional disconnect between the two people on the computer. They can just literally just turn it off and that's it. It's not like they're in a retail store where they would be rude to turn away and walk away, which some people still do. Sociopaths.

So we have to build up these different factors. And I totally agree. So when I'm writing content, I have a final edit, which is for tone of voice. Sometimes we are ill, sometimes we're angry, sometimes we're frustrated. We're all, we're too dry and we write a piece of content. I will usually kind of watch like a comedy show. I might even watch Rick and Morty or something ridiculous to kind of like get myself in the zone where I'm kind of happy. Go lucky. And then I'll do a final read through and I'm like, I could, you know, I could put in a little bit of a funny spin here or there or whatever. And so then it helps connect with the people that I'm trying to talk to, rather than it just being dry all the time kind of thing like that.

Holy shit. I just want to pause there. That is fucking genius if you think about it, because you're in the middle right now. Right before recording, you said you're writing sales copy for the last, like three days. So this is a nice little break. And I could see a nice little break of or after you're done writing a piece of content. You got the foundation laid. It's all great, great content. Go flip on Rick and Morty, watch some crazy shit, and then you come back and you're like, the filter's a little off at that point in your brain when you reread it, and you're like, oh, man, this is kind of boring. Right about here, I inject a little humor reference, something that's a little weird to keep them engaged.

It's also. So we have it kind of like a style and tone guide. So we kind of have fun, but not crazy.

Educational, but not talking down to certain things like this. Because everyone wants to learn, but they don't want to know that they are the reason the problem exists. Usually we are. We all are. But we need to place blame elsewhere and things like this. And so even though we have certain archetypes for certain goals that we write with different content archetypes and things and we have writing patterns and we have editing patterns for copywriting and SEO and all this kind of stuff. We still have that at the end because it's like, does this match the tone of voice of the website? Because if not, it's also good for guest posting because then you can kind of get an idea of the tone of the place that you're putting the article and stuff as well, so that it ties in, you know, stuff like that.

And now how do you just, you know, I kind of asked a very long winded question, so there was multiple parts to it. And I'm kind of also curious, how do you weave sort of persuasion into this content so that they do want to take that next action?

All right, let's nerd out.

All right.

I joked about this the other day in that some people will buy audiobooks or they won't even buy a book. So, like Ray Dalio just released is it Principles?

Yeah.

And it's like, about all this investing and stuff. And it's a massive book. Like, you could club a seal to death with this kind of thing.

And yet someone else releases a book the next week where it's like the top 10 list things that they found. And someone will read that list and think they got the same value. They don't.

We need emotional connection to create new pathways in our brain. And if we don't have that, then it doesn't make any difference and it doesn't make any change. We're not learning a secret hack by suddenly realizing that he doesn't invest in these certain things.

Likewise, spoilers for Sixth Sense at the end. Bruce Willis is a ghost. If you do a spoiler in advance, right. It doesn't have any impact, but when a twist comes, it's absolutely huge. So a lot of people will cut a lot of stuff out of their content just to get the meat and potatoes, but no one cares about the meal if it's not cooked by their mom. And all this other stuff, the metaphors going on tangents here. But there has to be emotional connection. You have to speak not just to that person who has this problem. A lot of the time they don't even understand they have that problem. They have a different problem. They don't know it's connected. So if you don't have emotional connection to what they're going through right now, they can't connect the dots to say, okay, that is actually a reason why I was talking to a new student of ours yesterday who has. She has a blog where she advises kind of like divorced women about finance and stuff like that. And we were talking about the same thing where they have to have this emotional connection at first. Because a lot of people's problems with money is they spend it based on emotion. Good or bad, happy will spend a lot, sad or food and stuff like that. Right. And so those people know that they can't have money, but at the same time, the reason they struggle with money is because they're not controlling their emotions. I'm really sorry if you can hear the little Chihuahuas in the background.

Office dog.

Yeah, we've got two little office dogs recently.

It's a lot about that.

We structure content in a specific way to hit these certain things. There's a lot of copywriting formulas out there. Ada. Attention, interest, desire, action. Very basic. Another one is the bab sequence. Before, after bridge, how people consume information. And I'm going to get real nerdy. Our brain kind of hasn't really evolved. It's just tacked things on over the years.

Yeah.

I'm very really sorry for people in the background.

We can't even tell it. Mike. Yeah. But yeah, it's basically like an onion. Yeah. Like, we haven't evolved really. It's just layer, layer, layer, layer.

Yeah. And so we have what's called the lizard brain, which is like the most basic. It's fight and flight, sex, fear, these kind of things. Then we have the midbrain and then we have the neocortex, which is kind of like the logical area where we solve problems and ideas and things like that. A lot of us, if we know a topic, we start talking to people from our neocortex to theirs. We're like, oh, it must be obvious. They understand this thing, we know this problem, blah, blah, blah. They don't know that problem. They don't know all the steps yet. And so actually it's going to the lizard brain and they can't connect. But, like, they don't understand why this is actually an important thing to them. So.

We need to speak to their base instincts first, which is usually the pain that they've got. Because if we can actually talk to that and say, hey, do you have this pain? And we actually describe it in the words that they use and things like that. They're like, yeah, I do. Do you want it gone? This is how you get there kind of thing. So before, after bridge, the reason we do that is because if you have that pain, you're talking to that lizard brain.

I missed this out. But basically our brain filters through those three steps, it doesn't go straight to the neocortex and we're logical. It kind of like you ever drive home at night and you're not really paying attention and suddenly you're home and you can't remember how you got there. You're on autopilot. Right. Lizard brain is pretty much functioning and everything else is shut down. It's just trying to save energy because it's a mentally taxing day is really tiring. Right. So we're not using this all the time because that, that higher level thinking is designed to save us and stuff like that or to deal with problems and things.

So when we are trying to communicate to someone, it goes into their lizard brain first. Elizabeth Brain says, is this relevant to me? Oh, it is when the brain uses a little bit of energy to say is it really relevant now? Before I pass it up. And then it goes to this logic center. That's basically how we filter information. So if we don't, if we don't recognize that in the structure of our content, we're really going to struggle to get people to actually pay attention to it and convert.

The introduction to a post. The reason a headline does so well is because it's talking to that lizard brain. And if it doesn't talk to that lizard brain, they're not even paying attention to the rest of the post. Likewise the introduction. And now I have to see what it's relevant to them, where they are and where they want to be, then they pay attention to the rest of the post. If you just jump into a how to. Of how to set up a Facebook ad that talks to someone who wants to set up a Facebook ad. But if you talk to. Are you struggling to actually grow your business online?

You can't get enough people through the door. Even though you've got the great product, they're going to pay attention to that and then you can say how it's easier to sell online and then you pivot to Facebook ads.

So that's basically the difference of doing. Yeah, it makes perfect sense because you're pointing out the pain, which is the lizard brain. Something that's an internal struggle. So it's like compare that to someone like I can kind of like not saying it's a bad example, but $22 to 1 ratio ROI. Here's how I run Tanzik ads and that's a little bit more tactical. It's another step up. It seems like.

Exactly. So I'm talking to people.

Who are writing content and not getting the results they want. So it speaks to them. And it's also speaking to people who are running Facebook ads who are not seeing the same roi. So I'm appealing to those people. But then if you look at the article and you look at the first few sentences, there's a before, there's an after, there's a bridge. I'm talking about how life was before. And sometimes it's just a sentence or two to get them to read. I spent a lot of money. I wasted a lot of money. But now we're doing this and this is how we got to that point. They're going to keep reading. There's a lot more to it than that, but it's almost copywriting.

Psychology applied to content marketing.

Totally.

How we structure it. How like sales page methods applied to the structure of a blog post. I'm sorry, that went on for so long.

No, no, this is fascinating. I mean, we're sitting here nodding our heads, just like really, really interesting stuff. I mean, we love the psychology angle and why things work. We don't want to just hear tactics and go, cool, that tactic sounds good. We'll go test it. When you have the understanding behind why the tactic works, then it totally helps solidify it. And I think it's really, really valuable to share that. Because we talk about content marketing a ton, we rarely talk about the psychology behind content marketing.

Just think about how you can apply this. Like you just said. Yeah. That sales copying goes to content. Well, now you can apply this same concept to your opt in or your Facebook ad and your email. All this stuff gets affected.

Now when you put out the content, obviously you've got to speak to these sort of different levels of the brain and that sort of thing. How, how much of the content that you're putting out, how much of it is like actionable, usable content versus sort of selling the next step.

Kind of 80% maybe, if we think about it, probably 15% is getting an emotional connection so they actually pay attention. Then it's 80% is all value. Because I want to build trust, I want to build authority. I want it to be actionable. I want, if influencers see it, that they're going to link to it and things like this, then the last 5% will be a call to action of some sort, maybe to the next step or maybe to take an action that's tied into it. Things like that.

Got you. Now, do you have any. When it comes to the call to action, do you have any sort of formula or way you typically like to write the calls to Action.

I normally have the HSO offer kind of near the top of the page after we've done that emotional connection kind of as a pattern interrupt. Because I want them to see, oh, wow, they actually have the next thing that I want. And it gives the appearance that the content is more valuable because it's like there's also these added bonuses in this content. If I want it.

Yeah.

Then I have it at the bottom of the page as well. And usually for a call to action, what I have is they've read the article and they've gone on a journey. There's like a transformation, but there isn't because they haven't taken the action yet. All they've done is read that post. So what I need to do at the end is recap where they are right now. Yes, they're excited, but you're still in the same situation. And if you want to not be in that situation, you need to take this action. You know, you need to. Actually, it's not that difficult to lose the weight. You know that you can do it with this diet, but you've got to start the diet. So if you click here, you can get your food plan for the first seven days kind of thing. So again, before, after bridge, I have to recap that pain because I think Derek Halpern talked about it. But there's four types of customers. I can't remember all of them. But you have the skeptics, the warriors, the procrastinators. So even those people who get all the way and they all could be your customer, but the way their brain works is different. Some of them will just jump on straight away. Entrepreneurs straight away will go towards pleasure taking an action. A lot of people move away from pain, so it's the exact same offer. It's just you have to help them see that the pain is more real to get them to take action. Others.

I think Simon Sinek says, like, you know, they'd still have a rotary phone if we, if we let them, you know, they would have never moved on to digital phones and things like this. So you have to kind of like get them to take action from there. So the pain has to be. You have to recap the pain, you have to recap the desire and what they've learned and then ask them to take that action, which is the logical next step for them to take.

Gotcha.

Perfect. Going back really quick to. You said the styles of content you asked is about 85, 15, 15% of that is to kind of just bring them in. Do you position it differently, like with your ads or in some funnel kind of format?

Not really. I just try and think where that person is. If they're further up funnel, then the pain point I'm talking about might not be the same.

Right, right.

It might literally just be that like they are a step removed and then a step removed again and step removed. So I always need to kind of get that person ready to take the next step and ready to take the next. So I can't prove this, but most websites only sell to 2% of their audience. I think that's because those 2% are ready to buy. They've already answered all the questions and everything else. The rest of them could become a customer at some point, but they don't fully understand their problem yet. They don't fully understand, so we don't have the desire to take the action. But when you do this, when you create content and ads and offers like this, you are making them become the person who is the ideal customer. They already are the right person for it. They just don't know they are. We're taking them and we're transforming them along the way. So when you make the offer, it makes total sense to them because they're like, yeah, this solves all these pain points that I'm aware that I have.

I love it. That makes perfect sense. That just seems like sometimes looking at just the stuff that we offer, there's probably way a lot more content we can create. Based off of what you just said, they're probably the right person, but they just don't quite know it, that they need this solution, whatever that offer might be.

Exactly.

I'm sure you have this in your course and we'll let people know how to get it in a second here. But where you have this framework and these different types of content, you can kind of appeal to everyone, but it's up to up to you and also them to kind of find that content and actually take an action.

Yeah, exactly.

So go ahead. Sorry. I usually see two types of websites. I usually see people who can get traffic but don't sell. And I use and I see the other people who can sell but they can't get traffic. So direct response guys, or they've got a good offer and it's great, but they're not building any assets and they're not doing any SEO and they're not creating content and things. And then you've got the guys who are deep into content, but they want people to come to them so they don't run ads and they don't make offers and they're missing elements to make a sale. So when you deep dive in SEO, basically you start to target larger keywords which are higher up the funnel. So these people are more and more and more steps removed. So you're getting a lot more people to visit your site, but if you don't have anything to take them to the next step and the next step and the next step, then all they are is just window shoppers. And so it's like you have to help move them along. And it's great because it fills your pipeline if you do, but otherwise they're just coming and leaving.

Yeah, I mean, you've got the. I think it's from Breakthrough Advertising. Eugene Shorts. Where is that? Eugene Shorts. Okay.

Yeah.

I think it's Breakthrough Advertising where they talk about the various stages of buying. You've got the sort of solution aware, you've got problem problem aware, you've got the solution unaware and the problem. I don't know, I'm mixing it all up. You have like, you have the various phases and I feel like in your content you want to, you need to tailor content towards those various phases of awareness. And like what you're saying from an SEO standpoint, the broader and broader keywords you're going for, the further down that, that sort of scale they are, they're, they're probably not product aware, they're not probably problem aware, they're probably, you know, they're probably product and problem unaware. And you have to speak to those people. The broader, the keywords you're going after. And then as you get these sort of longer and longer tail keywords that are very, very specific, you're getting, you're going to want to be putting content in front of those people that are, you know, a little bit closer to the hole, a little bit closer to the sale, because those are going after kind of more that solution aware people or problem aware people.

Exactly. It's a big thing a lot of people don't do is they don't talk to their customers at different stages and so they don't really understand the people. Keywords are great, but keywords are based off of searches people have done.

You're being retroactive there. Sometimes people are not even searching for any of these things because they don't even know they have a problem yet. They're talking about different things that you don't know are connected. So you need to be able to understand the audience at each level. A content journey or a sequence like this or we call it pre frame content because we're getting them ready in their mind before we make an offer. All it is really is a sequence of conversations.

I need them to understand this before they can understand the next thing. And then once I get the next thing, it's the next thing.

When it comes to salespeople, you have three types. You have people make an offer which is, believe it or not, not a lot of people do that. You have people who then will talk to someone and find out what their problems are and try and reframe those problems and the office solves them. So we call that reframing. They're trying to reframe objections. The best salespeople are the people who pre frame. They bring up all the problems in advance and they go past them and get them out of the way before they ever make the offer, which is kind of what you're trying to do. I said we're improving our sales page. I'm also improving our sales sequence. And I'll tell you what it is if you want.

Yeah, please.

It might affect my sales positively or negatively. We'll have to see.

Take it with a grain of salt here.

So like I'm selling a product that is all about creating high, converting content and then how to leverage and promote that content. It's an entire system. It's like 20 hours of stuff and templates and things. It's like four courses in one, basically. But everyone knows, or they've heard that they should focus on promotion, but no one really talks about it. A lot of the information is list posts and stuff like that. No one really deep dives into it. So for me to sell this product to someone, they've really got to believe it. And they really also have to be in the position where they don't want to be writing all the time. They want the content. They've got to actually start working for them. You know, if they take a week off sick and they don't release something new or they're not going to get sales stuff like this. So I have to get people in that mindset. Now I've got a good sales page at the moment which covers a lot of objections in advance.

But if I can bring those up and get past those objections before they ever get to my sales page, they are more likely to buy. And I apologize because I'm going to nerd out again.

When we were talking about.

Bruce Willis and stuff earlier, there's more connection at the end because of the journey they've gone on like the past that these people have gone on before they get to the end.

When we make choices to buy or not to buy, we base it off of experience. If all the objections are met on the sales page, then you only just change their ideas two minutes ago. When they come to actually make to buy, are they actually.

Fully transformed? Are they going to say, actually, you know what, promotion is the key. That does make a lot of sense. I should buy this. Or if a week in advance before I even make the offer, if I get them to say that and understand it for that entire week, they're like, wow, I really need to change what I've been doing. Then when I make an offer to it, it's the difference between trying to convince someone on the day and I apologize, someone's chopping wood now. It's hilarious.

How many noises are the most interesting place? You've had someone breaking into a car or something outside.

It's usually super quiet at this time of day, which is why I put this. And I'm like, I'm just waiting for someone to come clean the windows or something, you know, might as well at this point fix the roof. So I apologize, people.

No worries. We can't even hear it. So we're just, we're only hearing it when you mention it.

I'm just making a scene in my head.

No, just because I'm trying to talk and I'm like, chop chop.

No worries, go ahead.

So if this guy is killing me, man, you're killing me.

So if we try and get someone to make a decision and we've only just changed their mind about a couple of things or got them to think about a couple of things just before, it's probably unlikely that they're going to say yes. Some of them will, most of them won't. So we need to overcome those things in advance. We need to pre frame them. So in mine right now, my very first post that gets people into a kind of like our offer funnel is I talk about the pain point they have is that the content is not doing what it should and it's because they're writing too often. They are not getting results, they are just churning out and they're not promoting. So once I get them on board with that, they understand that they need to be promoting more than they're creating and we go through the math of it and all this kind of stuff. So they're like, holy shit. They have this massive aha moment and they say, I need to be doing this. Then I say, but you can't just promote anything. So my next article is we talk about how to what actually makes a difference between good content and bad and we give them the steps on it and we show them actually how to go and improve an old post then, okay, so your content is good, but let's make it more efficient. And we show them how to start collecting more emails. At this point, they believe that promotion is better than just creating. They know that they should be creating higher value because it converts even if they're only getting low traffic and especially if it's getting higher opt ins at that point, they're almost ready for our offer. What I'm doing now is I'm adding in additional steps where I'm covering a lot of things that people don't realize in that SEO on its own is crazy because you're not selling also paid ads on its own is mental because you are not building assets that could get hundreds of thousands of visitors a month. There's different weaknesses and strengths of every different promotion channel and you need to understand what they are and you need to actually leverage them because there's actually certain things work better at different times. I've been building links to this article and I'm doing a case study. I'm trying to see how long it takes to get like 100 different websites to link to it. It's got over 100 now. It's got about 150, but Google only recognizes 52 and it's taken three months to get to that point and they're still not recognizing all these other links. So it might take nine months before we get all those links and we get all the SEO traffic. Your business could go bankrupt in that time. And yet the content's good and it converts, so it makes sense to put it in front of people. So we're running paid ads, we're working with influencers, we're doing forums, we're doing all these different channels.

Because it makes no sense to just work on one. Likewise, there's actually different channels work best at different points in the promotion cycle. So we actually use three phases. We start doing stuff before we even write the content. We do specific things during the launch and we do specific things after. So if I can get people on board with all of this, promotion is important. Killer content, getting opt ins. You need to use different promotion channels as a process to follow because all have strengths and weaknesses. Understanding how things go viral, all this other stuff. When I make an offer and I teach them how to do all that, they're like, of course makes total Sense. But if I made the offer before they understood these things or if I tried to include it in the sales page, which is what I've been doing at the moment. Some of this stuff, just because we wanted to get it out there.

Not as many people will convert because I'm trying to convince them of something they only just learned two minutes ago. And then to pop with money, that's.

Like their guard is up right there on the sales page. They know all right, there's a sales thing happening. But if you pre frame all this stuff, you're just like, it's in their head already. So.

It'S almost like you're empathizing by the point they get to the sales page because you're like, oh, yes, finally a release. I have the outcome I need right now or the next action I need.

Exactly. They've understood I couldn't talk about three phases of promotion at the start because that person doesn't even realize they have a content problem. So I have to like, they have to have this sequence of aha moments to realize and move them towards that thing so that by the time they get to it they're like, this makes total sense. I wish you would have offered it to me last week.

There's so much here that I want to unpack and sort of dissect a little bit.

I feel like we should probably.

Yeah, no, I've got about another 30 minutes worth of questions here, so I'm.

Not in any rush. So whatever you guys want to do.

All right, so the first one should be probably a fairly quick question. I'm kind of sort of shifting now into traffic. I kind of talked about having sort of like a bit of a two.

Parter here, but it was content psychology. That was all really good. It's like a good foundational thing.

So.

Yeah, yeah.

I want to touch on traffic. We probably don't have as much time to really dive into traffic, but I do want to kind of touch on a few things here while. While we have the opportunity. And I'm sure at some point in the future we can definitely do a round two and dive even deeper. But so first, quick question around, like SEO, you mentioned you're trying to get 100 links to an article. I'm curious, how are you going around and getting backlinks? Because when it comes to SEO, I always feel like backlinks is something that people struggle with.

So the content is good. So it's. And it's also a referenceable resource, so people are going to link to it anyway. Because it's an asset. I'm also trying to find people who. Here's the thing. When you write content just for your customer all the time, your customer doesn't have a website and so they can't link to you. So it has to be something in there that appeals to people who do have websites who do have the ability to help you rank. So that's a big part of content as well.

We follow different outreach methods, different things. So coming on podcasts, for example, is a really easy way to get links because.

It'S not a low barrier to entry. But you know, it only takes an hour and you've got a pretty good backlink. But it's even better because you can talk about the topic so you. I can reach people who are step removed, get them ready for the article like we were talking about. So. And it also makes sense because it's. If you are writing good assets, it makes sense to be going out there and talking about these things. It's almost like when you're prepping for a new book you've just written or a film that's coming out, you're doing like press tours basically. There's a few other things.

I have the email of a lot of blogs in my industry and I can run paid ads to my content that only targets these people. So if they then read that article and decide to then write about it and link to it, that's okay. I'm not asking for a link. But if they can see that the article is really good, it's doing well on social and it's getting in front of people, that's a pretty good tactic.

Well, also resource pages and things are very low hanging fruit you can get links on as well. Doing an outreach to other blogs in the space. I'm never asking for links, I'm always just trying to get it in front of people. And if a link or a share comes from it, that's great because these people are busy, right? Yeah, I'd rather have the relationship than anything else.

Yeah.

So you mentioned earlier, you mentioned growth hackers and inbound.org and some of those platforms. I don't really want to go too deep down this, that rabbit hole. I'm just curious if you have like some advice on like best practices there. Because I know, I know groups like that could be sort of finicky and they feel like if you're too self promotional, even if the content's good, like a lot of times they'll downvote you just because they can tell you're promoting your own content. It's. They're very similar to, like, Reddit, but niched. Right. So I'm kind of curious, what do you have as far as, like, best practices or tactics in that area?

So forums work the way people use forums doesn't. So you need to become a member. If you get traffic from working in a forum, that's a bonus. If you are there and you learn about your audience and the pain they've got before it even becomes a keyword, it's very easy to write a piece of content about it that then becomes a trending topic because you are listening to the audience before they. Before anyone else. So you want to be in forums, and you don't need to be in a lot of them. You just need to be where they are. I call it, like community manager method. Imagine it was your own community, it was your own Facebook group or whatever. Treat it with the same kind of respect that you would. So you want to be in there, you want to be listening to people, you want to be providing help. You want to be linking to resources that are not just your own and things like that. And you want to do it way in advance of you ever promoting anything of your own. Because marketers will be like, oh, yeah, forums. They go in and then they get kicked off, you know, and it makes no sense. It's an asset that can send you traffic, but that's not why you should be there primarily, you know, you should be there instead adding value to the community, because they will. I can't remember who wrote this, but forums don't like marketers, but they don't mind other members who are marketers. That makes sense.

Yeah.

No, I mean, I feel like that most people's approach is, oh, I just made this content. I need to market it. I'm gonna go hit all the forums where this is a good fit. Yet. They haven't been a part of the community. They haven't engaged, they haven't done anything in that community. They just show up when they have something to promote. Right? It's like. It's like, I mean, we actually, you know, we know people like that that we don't hear from them all year. Now all of a sudden, they have a launch and they go, oh, Matt and Joe are good affiliates. Let's reach out to them. Right? It's kind of the same concept.

So it's dealing with people. At the end of the day, folks forget once they get on a computer screen, oh, you're still dealing with people. It's a big group of people, and now you're going to piss off a lot of them all at once. They're going to downvote you and probably ban you.

Same with email outreach. When they just copy and paste to a thousand people, like we said before the call, all you did, you just offended 1,000 people who are your peers who have the ability to make or break your business. What are you doing? It's absolutely insane.

Yeah. I want to ask on that outreach aspect, what are a couple things that you always do with outreach because you're doing it differently. It's a sniper approach. And you're not mass emailing and burning bridges left and right.

We are doing kind of like high volume. We might send 3, 400 emails, but.

That was from a much larger list. We are only sending to the people that it makes sense to. What's in it for them? Why would they care? How can I make it real simple? How can I make it easy for them to say yes?

The biggest one right at the start is like, these are right people just emailing a blog, a marketing blog, to say, hey, I've got this dogtree article. Do you want to check it out or link to it? No, they don't like, that's absolutely insane. But again, if you're an SEO blog and you're reaching out to a paid ad site and you're like, hey, I wrote this article, they don't care. That's not the topic that their audience goes there for. You need to have some kind of correlation, some overlap between the two, because those guys only really care about that topic if it's going to help their audience. They built up all this goodwill. We're not going to share stuff with them that makes them look bad. And even if it's good content, if it's not on topic, it's going to make them look bad. You can tell when someone is paid to be on a podcast or something because it's like, what this got to do with web development.

It's a book about being happy or whatever or something like that.

I want to do a real quick recap, and then I want to touch quickly on Facebook ads, and then we can kind of wrap up after that. But so kind of like a quick recap of everything we've talked about so far. And I'm actually more doing this to clarify it in my own mind so that you can correct me if I sort of misspeak on this process. But you're going in and you're creating content on your blog. The content is like 80% educational, 20% sort of warming them up and then at the end sort of pitching them. You know, you're kind of appealing to that lizard brain in the subject line. So that that grabs their attention and sort of sucks them in and sort of speaks directly into what that person needs. In that moment, you suck them into the content. The content has a call to action. Typically the call to action is like a link. If you click the link, then it pops up an opt in box and then that sort of commitment principle kicks in and people want to follow through. Now, after somebody opts in, I'm assuming the process is, is there some sort of offer that they see immediately after they opt in, or are they being opted in and just going to more content that sort of pre sells them some more? As I was trying to describe this, I guess I just kind of came up with another question. But.

What happens immediately after the opt in on your site?

So our course is, it's not cheap, it's about average for the industry. But that's.

It'S quite a big investment for some people, some businesses. So I don't offer it straight away. Also.

We'Re at the disadvantage where not everyone fully understands what our product is or what it does because they don't understand the problems they've got. So in our particular industry, we have to kind of nurture them along. So we will send them more content to get them to the point where they say, I need the thing. Oh, guess what? We sell that thing. So that's how ours works and we send them content.

We try not to give them too much straight away because our stuff is really in depth and I want them to actually consume it and think about it. So our sales cycle might be 45 days, which is not great when you're running paid ads at the front end.

But because we know our numbers.

Ads I spend in January converts to sales at start of March, kind of thing like that. And I know this and I know what we can spend, blah, blah, blah. So that's how we do it, is we're trying to create the ideal customer who's ready. Because if I offer them too soon, they're not going to buy. But not only that, I might scare them off and this thing can genuinely help them. And so like I'm trying to wait until they are the ideal person ready for this. That makes sense. If I had other offers or cheaper offers or if I had a book or something, I would offer it much earlier to recoup costs and also to add Massive value. If I was discounted and things. But just because we have one offer and it's more expensive and it takes commitment of time and energy to do, we kind of do it.

Like that makes sense.

Yeah, it's leading with value. It's similar to what we do. Even though our offer's pretty dang cheap for most and people are like, raise the price. Like, no. But yeah, it's always value, value, value. There is an opportunity to take an action once they're ready. Yeah, but yeah, it's very similar where it's always leading with different ways that it might be appealing to the lizard brain or some other objection or something happening in their business.

I mean, same same concept. We do make it easy for them to buy at any point along the process if they, if, if they're ready. But we, we try to have that same approach of, you know, just lead with a ton of value, and when they're ready, they'll buy.

So. Okay, so the last sort of rabbit hole is, is Facebook ads. I think a lot of people, us included, for a long time, we were really, really afraid to buy traffic to content. You know, we had a strategy for a long time where we, if we're buying traffic, we wanted to buy traffic to a page that was going to lead to a conversion of some sort immediately. Right. We were either driving them straight to an opt in page or straight to a sales page. If we're spending money, we either want to be building a list or collecting sales. And only within the last, like, year or so, we've really sort of changed that up. And now most of our paid traffic actually drives to content instead. So can you break down sort of your philosophy and strategy on Facebook ads? And then we'll kind of quickly dissect some of it and yeah, for sure, see where it leads.

Well, again, the content's got to be good and it has to convert because then you can build a list. Sending people to content, usually for much cheaper than you could if you sent them to a squeeze page asking for it. Not only that, you actually get the content out in front of more people. You're not writing anything new, which is great. So there wasn't time invested doing anything else.

A big part of it, a big part of the anxiety, is knowing how much you can afford to spend for a subscriber, knowing your sales cycle, how long it takes to buy, and things like that. Because usually when you set up an ad, it takes kind of three days for the ad to kind of find its feet. And if you don't know what's going on, you'll get scared. You'll make tweaks and changes before you've got enough data to. Before the ad can even kind of regulate itself. Plus, you don't have enough data at that point to know. So you have to know the math behind it because otherwise you're going to freak out. Especially if you're paying in January and seeing a sale in March, you're going to go insane. And if I'm totally honest, it's probably why I paused our ads to, in quotes, improve my sales page. Just because everyone gets nervous, right? Everyone gets anxious. We started spending a lot more on ads to start scaling it up. Even though I know the math is good, I know the conversions are good, I know the value is good. Everyone falls to this. We do stop.

You have to know those numbers. You have to know what it's converting at. And all this other stuff. When it comes to the Facebook ad, because I'm sending them to content, I'm usually talking to people who are step removed. Again, because if I just, I could write an ad saying, hey, here's a blog post on how we get paid ads to blah, blah, blah. It's great. It's going to talk to people who are interested in that straightaway. But if I want it to be even cheaper, I can talk to people who are a step removed and get them ready to understand why this is important. And then they click and then they read and then they subscribe. So I generally use long form content and again, because it's easier to get someone to click or take an action if you've convinced them to take an action. You know, videos do really well. I'm not opposed to videos. It's just.

They take a bit of effort to set up. I need to tweak and I need to test. I need to test different calls to action, different introductions, different things. I'm better off getting a good converting long format that I've tested first and then doing the video from there. That makes sense.

Yep. You prove it with the content.

Yeah, that's it. Use the ad, the long format. But you've tested as a script for the video.

Sure.

You know, because then it might even work even better. But starting out long formats.

So I'm doing copywriting psychology there as well. I'm talking to that pain point that's a step removed. I'm going through the issues. I'm helping provide social proof. I'm talking about the stuff they're going to get in the article. You can Click across and go read it. Now.

That'S all it is really. We have a structure and we talk about it in our blog post as well. We show you how to do all that.

Yeah, we'll link that in because I figured that's what we're going to do either way is link the URL. I don't know right now, but yeah, we'll make sure it's in the show notes.

Yeah. I believe this is a link to a blog post. I'm not sure, but I've got a link on our screen right now that shows how you generate $22 for every $1 ROI promoting blog posts to a cold audience using Facebook ads. I think that's a link to an actual blog post, right?

It is, yes. Cool.

So we'll definitely share that up as well.

It's like a 30,000 word, eight chapter post.

There you go.

We'll link you to his book on content marketing.

Yes.

This is the thing. You don't have to run paid ads to an article that large. The reason we did that is because we are in a competitive industry. We're fairly new, we wanted to come and kick the doors down. That's why we have that post. The example we use in that article is a 1200 word article that we're running paid ads to.

Yeah. So definitely read that article there.

Right.

I'll quickly give you our testing process. So we're running long form ads because they convert. We are testing four major elements. The image, the headline, the subhead, the content and the call to action. Basically the reason we do that again is because of the way the brain works. When people are scrolling through a newsfeed, first thing they see is the image. They don't read the headline, they don't read anything else. The image has to get their attention first. So if it fails to do that, they're not going to read anything else.

What we do is we run a very tight focus group of people who are ideal for the article. Maybe thousand to ten thousand people. We're not trying to get conversions or anything. We are just running for impressions to get this in front of people as much as possible. We're literally doing what marketing focus groups have done for years and we are testing the image, finding the one that gets the most clicks. Then once we've got a winning image, we'll improve the headline because the lizard brain said, oh, this looks interesting. Is it for me? Headline says it is. Test the best headline, get more clicks. Then we go into the content. Because people don't actually Read the stuff above the image until after the image and the headline has done its job. We kind of look at that, we look at the thing below and then we scroll up and read the thing above.

Mm.

We're testing that with this really tight focus group so we know the people who are clicking are the right people for it. Because if we were testing it with like random people who are, yes, they're responding, but we might be attracting the wrong people, if that makes sense. We might be getting clicks, but we might be getting clicks from people who could never be a customer, stuff like that. So we improve all of that. And we're testing once we've got the best version, the best variation, and we will also test one element at a time, because.

To get enough data points, you need to test each variation. If you were to test every single image, every single headline, every single call to action, you have something like 42 different versions running all at once. And you need 10,000 views on each of them to find an actual statistically significant winner. If you do that, you're going to blow your budget before you can run the ad.

Right.

So small businesses, instead, we show them how to get set up for five bucks a day. Even though all they've got at first end of the first few days is a winning image, that ad now converts better and they will have got some traffic and they will have got some leads. Now they can put money back in and get a winning headline. And over time, they're getting an ad that works for them without blowing all their budget on day one. Once we have got the ad that converts, we will then expand the audience because supply and demand, the more specific we are, the more Facebook will charge us to show an advert.

So if we're getting super niche, it's great early on when we're trying to find the right people to get response from. But if we were to try and scale the ad, at that point, it's too expensive. That's why a lot of people fail with their ads. So we will go much broader. We might say just people who are doing content marketing and we go for a larger audience now because we know the ad works with the ideal people, Facebook is going to start showing it to a large group and those ideal people are going to start responding. We know because the image, the ad, the copy works well with these people. Facebook tracks that. They use a machine learning AI and they say, hang on a minute, these people are really enjoying this. Let's stop showing it to the people who don't enjoy it. And start showing it more to the people who do. And so then the relevance goes up, the price goes down. And ironically, the advert is now showing to more specific people, but without charging you to do that. Does that make sense?

Oh, yeah. It's like learning phase. Spikes in the price a little bit, and then you basically take all the boxes that Facebook wants to see, and then it goes down. It's a lot more profitable.

Well, our right now is getting leads for a dollar each. Before that they were $3, they were $4, there were $6. So things like that. But for the longer the ad runs, the cheaper it's becoming, which is crazy. It's learning.

How long is that process for you? You said obviously three days is typically the learning period for giving an ad, but is it three days that you're seeing that whole change, or is it like a week or so?

Honestly, if you're testing and you've got a low budget and you just tested one thing at a time, it might be like 20 days, because you might find a winning image on day three. But if you haven't, just run it for another day. Is it a. When an image come up that is statistically significant, all that means is you have enough data points that Facebook is saying, if you were to scale this to a million people, it's still going to work the same way as it does now, rather than you only showed it to 10 and it did really well. It probably isn't going to work well if it goes to more people. That's all we're trying to find. We're just trying to find the math behind it to make sure that it is, on average, going to keep working as well as it should. So when we're showing people how to do that, how to a B test.

Because primarily I'm talking to small business owners who don't have a huge budget. It's getting them like an ad that is gradually getting better and better and better over time. And then now it's out there and it's getting cheaper and cheaper and cheaper and more results over time as well.

Very cool. That is awesome.

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Yeah.

Cool.

So.

I have. I think we're going to have to do a round two at some point. So if you're open to it, maybe in like a month or two, we'd love to have you back on and we can dive even deeper because of the ideas that you sent me an email of things that we can talk about. I think I replied saying, yes, I want to talk about all of them. And I think we probably, probably only got to about 50% of them in this.

We knew that was gonna be the case. There's no freaking way.

But we do have a few little wrap up questions that I wanna get to.

What does your tech stack look like? What tools are you using right now to kind of build all this stuff out?

We don't usually use a huge amount, so I have Photoshop, which I've had for like since we started the clothing company basically. So I haven't paid for that for years.

In terms of actually marketing and things. We use Mailshake for email outreach. The reason being it has an AI in there. So like it'll tell you. Hang on a minute. This email seems a bit spammy based on words that use and things like that, which is cool. But the main feature I use it, I might email 400 people. It'll say, hang on a minute, you've already emailed this person. Here's the previous thread. And so it stops me from messing up and doing that kind of thing.

Yeah, that was. Stephen Azetkis actually mentioned that too.

That's right.

Sujan Patel's one of his many software companies.

Ahrefs, we use for SEO rankings and stuff. But I've started using Nightwatch IO as well because it's like 10 bucks a month and basically it doesn't do all the stuff Ahrefs does. But. But it will tell me my keyword rankings. It will also pull data from Semrush, Ahrefs and Moz, all in the one dashboard. Oh wow. So it's pulling data that they're using.

What did you say that was called again? Can you repeat the name?

Nightwatch IO, which I think is like. It's a European company, I want to say.

Cool.

And their sales page is beautiful.

Yeah. We get folks asking us for the tools and Ahrefs is kind of pricey, you know, it could be like 200 bucks a month. So people are like, I don't know about that.

Yeah. And if you're in New Zealand as well, it works out as like 270, something like that. So it gets expensive pretty fast. And then another one is snagit.

I can screen grab an image. I can quickly edit it and chuck it into a blog post within about 11 seconds. Whereas before it was so much effort. Screenshot, cut the area out, blah, blah, blah. Those are the main things that we use and nothing else.

So what do you use for? Let's see. I know you mentioned Leadpages earlier, so what do you use for landing pages and lead capture, opt ins and then what autoresponder are you using?

There is a couple more tools my brain turned off. We use ActiveCampaign for email outreach and things like that. Yeah, they're fantastic guys and they're really on the ball. I remember once emailing about a feature. I was like, hey, it'd be cool if we did this. And two days later it was implemented.

And that was before we had an audience, you know, that was when we were just like a low Customer.

We use LeadPages Lead Boxes function. I don't actually use it for landing pages which is their main business. The reason I use it is it works and it works all the time. I've used other options that are one time fee and they've broken and then I've been sending traffic to a page and it's not converting and it's because the damn function isn't working anymore. And so it's worth the money to pay for.

We actually use one called Convert Box which was made by one of your neighbors. It is a one time fee. Right now they're sort of in like a beta pilot, private launch thing crushing it for. So it is a one time fee but it does, you know, it's purely like opt in boxes and slide ins. It doesn't have all the page builders that LeadPages has. Might be something you want to take a look at because we're loving it. Some of the stuff that it had built into it literally doubled our conversion rates just by turning on an option that they have so really, really cool functionality inside that one.

I always joke that if I started a software company that's the first thing I would build because it would cut down my cost each month.

Well, that's the thing.

It's also a simple thing, right?

It's the little levers, swing, big doors. Like you were saying, if you could just improve your conversion rates, you know, your inputs, you know, like if you can improve your conversion, the machine in the middle, your freaking outputs are going to be way better. And that's all in your control. It's so cool. Cool.

Do you have any.

No, let's go.

Do you have any books that you find yourself reading once a year or recommending to others all the time or something that you kind of use as a reference guide that you check into all the time? Like what books or a book do you recommend?

The Obstacle is the Way.

Ryan Holiday.

Yeah, great book.

It's a book on stoicism, but I find it's really good if you're struggling in business. It's also really good if you're doing well in business, you know, so you don't make silly decisions and things like that. Obviously there's great marketing and books and probably scientific advertising would be a really good book if people have not ever had it, like learning the basics of direct response. But for most people who are already in business or struggling to start a business, that book is so good. The obstacle is the way.

Have you ever read or just picked up and read passages of Meditations by Marcus Aurelius?

I have a copy of it just here. I also have Seneca.

My girlfriend bought me a couple. I also have Ego is the Enemy, which is a really good one by his as well.

So I have three of them on the shelf next to me while I'm speaking. I have those two by Ron Holiday and I have one called the Marshmallow Test, which is about a scientific study that lasted about 25 years and it was basically giving children marshmallows and if they didn't eat it, they could have a second one and if they didn't have a third one. So it was trying to create delayed gratification in these kids. They went on 20 years later and actually studied those children and the ones who could delay the gratification ended up becoming super successful.

Yeah, no, I've heard about that one.

That's a cool study.

And the reason I read that is one, because the business is kind of young, like since amp since we set up. But also when it comes to link building things, sometimes it's very binary. You'll send 100 emails and not hear anything. And tomorrow you've got to send 100 more and 100 more. If your feedback loop is did I get a link from that email today you're going to be pretty beaten up about yourself sending emails the next day and the next day. And so it's remembering these things, how they work and creating systems. That's why I love Mailshake actually. So one last tool, Databox, which is like a dashboard where you can plug in different tools and things. I have Mailshake and Ahrefs connected and so what it will do is it'll send me a dashboard each day. It'll tell me how much paid ads I've done, how much blah blah, blah, Google Analytics. But there's one specifically for outreach and it says it'll count how many emails I sent per day and it'll tell me how many links came in that day. In reality, they came in from an email I sent like a month ago. But my main deciding factor is did I send X amount of emails per day? So as long as I keep tracking that and I keep ticking that box, the links are coming in and I can see that I'm getting a positive feedback loop that keeps me doing the action.

Yeah, it's all about consistency. Yeah.

I mean, in the game that we play, especially since all of us are are big into SEO as well, we are in one giant patience game.

100%. It has to be. And then it turns into your biggest free traffic reach or any traffic. Like, for us, it's become our number one traffic input is SEO.

What's the paid ads guy telling you about the benefits of SEO? You're doing all these different channels, same man.

Yeah, we always talk about the paid ads, but it's really the SEO is the freaking. That's the gold mine right there for sure. So how do people dig into your course? Because I personally want to.

I'll send you guys a direct link to where it is. But basically we open it up kind of every 40 days or so because we don't want to offer it to people who are not ready for it yet. And also because we take on, it's still in like a beta test, so we're finding out what people need and tweak and test and stuff. So we take on small groups so that we can get action from those guys. But also we can say, okay, well what else do you need? And we can add stuff to it. It's just going now into kind of like live public, big push. But I'll send you guys a page. But if you subscribe to any of our content on our site on ampmycontent.com eventually you will get pushed to an offer for it.

Perfect.

So everybody listening to this, go check out ampmycontent.com make sure you get on his list, dissect what he's doing, read his content, understand why the content is the way it is. Hopefully you should have a better idea after listening to this.

And then get the course when you're.

Ready for it and then get the course when the course is available at. So it's all atmycontent.com is there anywhere else you'd want to send them? Any sort of social media accounts that you like people to follow you on anything like that?

Not really. I'm quite hard to get hold of. I'm a big believer in deep work, so I cut out a lot of distractions.

And also from, you know, before bad habits, you suddenly realize what actually is moving the lever.

Yup.

You're gonna get the most value.

Yep.

Yeah. I just said dude, because the last guy we had on said Deep Work is absolutely the best book. That's like, changed his life just because of shutting out all the shit. It's all the fluff in life, all the noise.

Neither of us have read that book yet, so I think that's.

It was already on the board and that's why we pointed it. We're like, jesus. Okay, we really got to get.

Is your Kindle account connected to your email address?

Because I believe mine is. It's. Yeah, it's a different email address.

Yeah, well, just send it to me afterwards and I'll get you guys a copy. My gift to you.

You're too cool, man. That's awesome. All right, Daniel, we're going to do around two, because I know we just have to. Yeah, we're just going to keep nerding out and it's fun and I hope that everyone else loves it more than.

Happy to come and chat. What I would love. I don't know if you guys have done it yet, but I bet if tweaked your opt in boxes like we were saying at the start. I haven't checked. I bet you would get an increase in conversions just from what we were saying in this episode. It would be cool to see it afterwards if we did like a follow up.

100%, dude. We're always for reporting results, things that we've tested, any ideas you have, we're more than happy to make some changes.

Too easy.

Yeah, perfect. I love it.

Cool, man.

Appreciate you, man. This has been super fun.

Thank you very much for having me, and I hope people enjoyed me yabbering.

On three coffees, deep wood chopping in the background.

It's definitely kind of, like, petered off now. My brain is very.

All right, buddy. We'll talk soon.

Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliffs Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice, simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to, and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes.

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