David Allen — A Simple Habit To Change Your Life And Reduce Stress

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What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart.

Podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

What's up, everyone? Welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. I'm Matt Wolf. I'm here with one of my co hosts.

That's right, Joe Fear.

Today is actually a special episode because there's actually three co hosts doing the interviews today. I don't know if you haven't, you need to, but if you haven't yet, go listen to the episode with Marx Acosta Rubio on amazing, amazing episodes. One of our most downloaded episodes ever. Well, today he's actually come back and joined us this time as a co host, an interviewer instead of an interviewee. And we're talking to the one and only David Allen, creator of Getting Things Done, as well as just a ton of other amazing life changing productivity, changing books.

Yeah. Now this was a super cool. It's a very unique dynamic and I think it's super cool because Marx, if you haven't listened to that previous episode, has been using GTD for, I believe it was about 15 years or something.

Something like that.

Yeah. He has gone deep. He's had coaching by David, has worked with him one on one and completely told a story there. But also it's amazing because he's bringing his friend David on the show here where he was able to actually ask questions that I think most people just don't ask or think to ask to actually go deeper in conversation, which is really cool. So not only are we going to touch on gtd, if you don't understand.

What that is, Getting Things Done, by.

The way, that is. That's true acronym. If you hear GTD Getting Things Done, it is. We, we will touch on that for sure. But we definitely go in deep on just the application of things in certain scenarios, but also the implications of using it, not using it, and how it literally is changing the way you work, think, and really live. It's changing the world, like Matt said.

Yeah. And I mean, we've been using Getting Things Done that methodology ourselves. And on this call, David and Marks actually give us some new ideas on how to better use it and actually improve our life even more through the GTD philosophies. So really interesting interview.

They challenged us, actually. So we have 90 days. We're actually going to do a GTD challenge to really get our stuff really dialed in. I think I need a little bit more help than Matt.

And we're planning on having David Back again with Mark as like a round two to really go deeper on some application stuff. So it's amazing. You're going to love this one.

Let's dive in with David and our co host, Marx Acostorubio.

Hey guys, how are you doing? And David, thanks for being on the show here.

Hey, my pleasure. Thanks for the invitation for sure.

Well, yeah, Mark, give it up to you there for the connection and thanks for coming back on the show for the second time now.

My pleasure.

Thanks for having me for sure.

Well, this is a fun episode and I feel like a lot of folks have already read the book, your book, David Getting Things Done. Probably the previous edition, maybe all those different editions you have in your office there, different languages we talked about. But this is going to be interesting because I feel like selfishly I have a lot of questions. I know Matt definitely has them, he applies them in different ways. So yeah, let's kick it off with. Well first, how do you guys go back, you and Marks?

So I hired David to be a consultant back in 2001 and actually you gave, I don't know if you remember this, David, you gave me your wallet. I told you what a nifty wallet it was. We took you to lunch at Cha Cha Cha's and I said, I want that wallet. And you said, well, you pay for lunch, I'll give you the wallet. I said, deal.

So I gave his wallet and I just became the biggest raving fan. And if not for gtd, I gotta tell you, I probably would not be.

Living the life I'm living today.

So I think David is probably one of the most intelligent, creative, compassionate, forward looking individuals I've ever encountered. And he's the only guy, actually one of two guys who I can honestly say that I've been a big student of since 2001 and have not been satiated by his material. In other words, I keep coming back to it and the more I go back, the more layers get peeled away and the more I understand. It's just the more I think I understand gtd, the less I really understand gtd. It really is like a martial arts. It is unbelievable. Just, I mean, wow.

What an incredible change, Mark. Thank you, I appreciate that. And the truth is same for me.

This thing that I kind of came across and like, wow, okay, so yeah, fellow student.

That's awesome. Yeah, so you just said it right there. You kind of came across it. I guess what was the catalyst for I strike it a little. There was probably a little bit build up to this point where you kind of came across this.

Well, yeah, I mean, there was a lot of backdrop for me that made it interesting when I met a guy who became a mentor of mine for a couple of years when I started my own consulting practice back in 1981 and 82. And he had uncovered the process of working with executives that needed to clear their head and make next action decision. And so he said, David, and he had a whole consulting model about organizational change that he was just brilliant at. And he said, you know, I'd be willing to, because I was going to bring him a client that I was working with to do that. He said, you bring me that client, I'll put you under my shoulder and teach you my process. So he actually sat me down and had me do a mind sweep, a total mind sweep, empty my head, and had me make next action decisions about every one of those things. And I went, oh my God. Oh my God. I wasn't in pain. I thought I had my shit together. So. But when he took me through this process and I saw how much of a vista that opened for me and how much was changing my own energy and clarity and focus and control that that created that I didn't know I was missing, I went, oh my God, that is really super wicked. Way cool. So I began to take his process and I sat with Dean and spent quite a lot of time with him. He had uncovered that process simply to clear the neck so that organizations could actually go through significant changes. There's so many of them had so many old business stacked up and constipated in their heads, trying to make a change and have some new vision or some new future. It's like swimming in quicksand. And so he had uncovered that as a process. Just those two things in and of themselves that are still core elements of the getting expense process. And what's kind of funny is that that was so powerful. I began to use that with my own consulting clients. And it produced exactly the same results. Wow, that's cool. And so even though I was involved in consulting with organizational change and I think Marx, I think probably we had some of those kind of conversations and some of that consulting as well. What the truth is just emptying people's heads and having them make next action decisions. But what have their attention solve? 90% of all the presenting issues, there was just so much stuff hiding under the rocks that just nobody was willing to talk about or be aware of or to then get in control of in terms of presentation. How do I manage this thing that's got my attention. Anyway. That's a very long story, very short. But that was really the impetus for a lot of this. That then I started to develop that. And it became its own process. It became its own deliverable. Just that we called it personal information management or something we called it way back then, which was just a. I built figured that it took for generally a couple of days if people wanted to actually walk through this process. Then over the first decade or so, I refined this a lot to really define what the whole methodology would be like. So again, George version is a very long story.

It's amazing. And what you said there, just the unpacking of your brain, that was the very first thing I experienced. Especially when Marx, you taught that to us. I think both of us. Matt and I read your book years and years back, but never fully applied it. Sorry. But until Marx, we working closely coaching with him, that was the very first exercise was unpack everything you can think of. And just that weight just immediately got off of my back. I know Matt probably had a similar experience.

Are we supposed to be sharing Marx's proprietary processes?

Well, you know, gtd. But just the answer.

Mark will send everybody a bill. That's fine.

You should.

So. Yeah, no, that's amazing. And Marx, I guess I'm curious about you as well, how you've applied this shift in your life, you know, and since learning all the GTD methods.

Well, I think the best way to actually answer that is probably to ask David this question. So, David, you talk about all the time about how people are addicted to stress. Right. Somebody says, why don't they get this? And your response is, they're addicted to stress. Right. That's why they can't imagine their head clear. In your experience.

What would you. What is the most productive person look like to you? You know, entrepreneur, executive, CEO Based on the guys and gals. Because you've coached thousands, if not tens of thousands of what do they look like when they're most productive? Meaning they're producing the desired result.

They're talking to me and they're fully there.

So they're totally present. Is that when you came up with the GTD is not about getting things done, but about being appropriately engaged with whatever it is that you're currently doing. Yeah.

So that you could be appropriately present. So that you could be present. You know, you cook spaghetti better. You're not thinking about anything else while you're cooking spaghetti. You know, you'll fire somebody much better if you can think about nothing but how you're Going to engage with them in the most positive, productive way and not have anything else on your mind when you leave, while you're sitting there trying to talk to somebody about a critical issue. The best way to hit a golf ball from. Best way to play with the kids from. It's a way to watch your daughter play soccer without being on your smartphone.

So then why do people have this misconception that being busy and being active and, you know, rush, rush, rush, go, go, go. And, you know, because we see these. We see these entrepreneurs that tell us, you know, ignore the minutia, work really hard, you know, crush it, whatever the case may be. I don't find them to be the most productive. What do you think about that?

Depends. Some people, that's balance for them. That's what turns them on. That's where their juice is, and they're able to go through that. And it's watch the girl play soccer, not be on the market. So it really is. There's a big. It depends. So it's really more a very personal issue about how I understand what you're saying. And in general, you're right. Most people get addicted to the busy aspect. And the busy trap is very, very subtle trap. Very easy to get hooked into that. Very easy for you guys all to tell yourselves, I don't have time to do Right.

I'm curious. With the uprising, social media and all platforms, obviously, smartphones and everyone's faces, really, when you're walking down the street, how is GCD applying to that these days? Is there a change?

No. The only difference is you're now getting 75 things in your mailbox instead of three. Right, but it's the same mailbox.

Yeah.

You know, come on. You know, you walk in, you know, back when I was a kid and walk into the Laundromat and look up at the bulletin board, you know, cat missing, you know, bike for sale, you know, whatever. And so, you know, I spent a few minutes a week maybe looking at that. Now it's in your face all the time. So there's no difference in terms of just input, social interaction, whatever, other than the volume and ubiquity of it. And that's what's so dangerous, because it's so easy to get sucked into that, especially if you're not sure what you're doing. Especially if you're not sure how to do what you're doing. It's so easy to get sucked into the social media addiction. And it is an addiction.

So let's go ahead and really quickly I want to give anybody who maybe doesn't know the concept, what is the getting things done?

I mean, there are people out there that aren't.

I mean, I think maybe three.

How dare they.

So those three, what rock have they been under?

But let's give them a quick walkthrough just so we. So as we go through the rest of this podcast, they kind of have a little bit of a reference to what we're talking about.

Yeah, I'll give you the two minute version. Basically, anything that has your attention, you need to identify and externalize some placeholder for that. You need to write it down, record it, stick it out somewhere in some sort of a trusted form. And then sooner than later you need to look at what that is and make very clear decisions about what it means to you. Is it reference? Is it trash? Can something move on? Yes or no? If it is, what's the next action you need to take and what outcome are you committed to finish about this? That's the clarification step. Step two, first of all is capture. Second is like clarify what you've captured very specifically. Step three is organize the results. If you can't finish at that moment, then you need to keep track of the phone call you need to make your sister about mom's birthday. You need to keep track of. That's something I need to stop by the bank and drop off. So you need to then keep track of these things that you can't finish in the moment. So your brain gets to let go of remembering and timing and you've got a trusted system to deal with that. So step three is organize, which is put the contents of your thinking into a trusted system. Step four is to make sure you're looking at your system consistently and appropriately. Going out for errands, take a look at your list, talk to your life partner about the business of life stuff, sit down and open your list.

Duh. And at least once a week look at all the projects. You've got to see how you're doing on each one of them so you feel comfortable to bring them in your yard and all that. And then step five is, then you engage your attention. You focus your activity based upon steps one through four. Okay, now I'm going to take a nap instead of doing any of that. I'm going to have a beer or I'm going to go do run that errand. Roy Nyami to sit down and craft this business plan. So it's really about getting. It's the steps we all go through. If you Want to get your kitchen under control, your company under control, your consciousness under control. Is a capture, clarify, organize, reflect and engage process. So I just identified all that made it conscious and then gave people a lot of more specific tools about how to really apply that across the more sophisticated aspects of it.

Yeah, no, I love that. And you mentioned the capture phase as being the first. That was what we were talking about, unpacking your brain for you personally, have you seen a very specific tool or I guess, how does someone pick a trusted tool that they can capture these and do this whole GTD method?

Well, just have something with them wherever you might have an idea you want to capture. Pen and paper, can't beat it. No WI fi required. No batteries required, no clicks required. Come on. For every click, even on your smartphone, you're going to lose 60% of whatever you do, especially if you're ADD or ADHD type. You know, you need low tech. You need something right there. I've got that with me. I've got my little wallet that I gave Marks, you know, back in 2000 years or whatever, something like that. I've got pen and paper right on my desk because God knows what's going to show up here that I might need to grab. And I don't want any barrier to entry to the capture process. So it needs to be something that's fine. You can record it. That's fine. On your butt. Doesn't matter. As long as you look at it again somewhere and not lose it.

Yeah. And that's what I've noticed. At least personally, that is. Okay. So, yeah, if someone's relying on smartphones, I know I have, many of us have. That's where, as you just said, just the typing alone will just get that thought. Half of that thought is just falling away. It's kind of trickling out.

Yeah. And Marks, is that wallet, actually, is that a different.

This is the original wallet that David actually gave me. You can see it's kind of beat up. I actually had to buy one afterwards. But this is the og. This is the original wallet.

It still smells like nice leather. So I have a question for you, David. Everybody that I've talked to about GTD has this idea that every single project, you go on your list and everything action that goes on your list must get done. I have found personally, that over half the stuff I put in there just doesn't get done or goes to something, maybe, or I, I eliminate it. Is that part of the whole GTD phenomenon is that even though you write some things down they just don't get done because they become irrelevant. Yeah.

Or they just never make it up to the top of the list. You know, it's like, how many of those books behind you have you not read yet?

Good. About 20%.

Right.

So are you stressed about that or. Hey, no. Those are just options in case I get time. Rings my bell.

I've got a library.

So you look at your list, like, do you eat everything on the menu when you go to the restaurant? I don't think so. You're looking at the option. Well, maybe, I don't know.

For the most part my lists are just menus of options of things to do that I've come up with. I just need to be making sure I'm looking through all of them sufficiently enough to feel comfortable about everything I'm not doing. So, you know, I need to make sure I track all of that. So I keep renegotiating. No, not now, not now. No, not now, not now. And some things either get moved to someday, maybe later on, or basically just live it until they decay and throw gold on them. And then I finally say, oh, screw it.

Life went on. That was a great idea back then, but you know, it's so cool. So no, life's like that. I think just.

The more options you have, the better. I mean, what if you only had six things on your list? They all may be crap or you may not have the right thing, the perfect thing on the list if it fits exactly where you are, feel like doing them. So there's no problem with having a big list. The truth is, once you really get, and you probably discover this mark, Stu, at some point, some part of you psychologically will sort of determine you've got a quota that you come up to and it's time to stop creating. It's time to start completing. And I've gone through these sort of six month cycles where I just have all kinds of creative ideas and create all kinds of new projects and all kinds of things going on. And then some part of my little 7 year old inside of me goes, ah, too much. You know, come on, stop, don't do that. And my creative process slows down, but my implementation process speeds up. So I think there's a natural rhythm that we all have about creating.

And so I think once you get used to having this all internalized, that's a more sophisticated level of sort of behavioral awareness that people can come in.

And you've been saying that ever since 2001. I know it's in your book. And I've heard you say it before. And you also referred to the scuzz factor. Right. And different aspects. You know, the teeth, you know, some people have, you know, can have one dirty this, some could have 10, 30 this, some could have, you know, brush your teeth after every meal, some can wait after two meals.

Right? Yeah. And so it depends on what your comfort zone with how much unprocessed stuff you can have. See, I always say, if the good fairy showed up and disappeared everybody's emails out of their inmates right now, in three weeks, they'd all have the same number they have right now. It's not about your volume. It's how many things you're comfortable hanging out with without clarifying the processing or organizing it.

I've had this discussion with Richard Koch, who wrote the 8020 Principle, as a big 8020 fan, and we've had discussion about your system. And I said, look, I have tried to blow it up. I've tried everything. I've tried not to do it. I've tried to prove David wrong. And I just the opposite happens. The more I try to prove wrong.

The more I realized how right and.

How infallible it is. And isn't it. Would you agree with the statement that the only real way to make an intuitive priority of what would be the 20% that makes the biggest difference is to see the entire options, what you have available. Without that, you can't make those choices.

Not only all the options, but all the horizons that these options come from. So you also need to, you know, to what degree are you clear about why you're on the planet, what your core values are, what the vision of life and work would be like five years from now? What are the things that you think you need to accomplish or finish in the next year or two to make any of that happen? You know, as well as all the things you need to maintain, like your health and your vitality and your finances. Yeah. So there's all those six horizons that we have, all these different. So the more that you're aware of what those are and have matured those sufficiently in your own consciousness, then you still, you know, it's like, it's that matrix, essentially. You've got a vertical stuff of, you know, what's the important things and all the things that need to line up. So the actions I'm taking are finishing the projects I need to do, that I'm maintaining the things I need to maintain that are taking me to my goals, which are going to make my vision happen, which is going to fulfill my purpose.

Well, that's an aligned life. But is taking a nap the best thing to do right now? Or how about the 156 things that are the action items that actually are provided out of all those open loops? So the ability to be able to see across those 160 things as well as to feel comfortable. And that's where the weekly review comes in. That's where the sort of vertical and horizontal kind of meets. Let me make sure I'm stepping back and doing reflection time to look at the bigger game and stuff. Let me make sure I have the inventory of all the stuff I need to do once I stop that reflection. So you don't have time to think. You need to have already thought.

Got it. Now can we walk really quickly through the sort of process that somebody would go through? So I have all these ideas, I unload them daily and I just have this giant list of ideas. I know there's projects and there's tasks and all that. Can you kind of explain the organization of what I do with this giant list once I have it?

Yeah. Well, first of all, you need to make sure you have the right list and you have the right content on that's the biggest reason most people don't really implement this is they haven't actually gone through a real process of clarification, action and outcome. Most people's lists are things like mom or bank or startup or.

VP Marketing, collection, market. So understood, that's great, they captured that, but they haven't decided exactly what's the very next action on that and what's the outcome that they're intending to create. And so that thought process, that's really, in a way, Mark, you can speak to this too. Probably the most subtle and sophisticated part of the GDP process is the thought process because you can't. There's no software that's going to tell you what to do about non perk. Yeah, I'm sorry. They'll give you decision support. You can keep track of all the things you've ever done for Monopoly and review those, but it's not going to make the decision about what to do. You still have to do that. So you still have to make those kinds of action decisions and outcome decisions about the things that have your attention. That's usually what's missing. Once you've done that, that starts to then make it much easier to describe what list you would have.

If call your sister about mom's birthday, it's the next step. This is called calls to make with your sister's. Name on it and phone number. A very handy thing to have, very easy to engage with. But just looking at a list of columns that says mom.

You know, it took me a while to figure this out, David, and maybe I got it wrong. But, you know, I used to have my context set, you know, at computer, at calls, at errands, at home, at office, whatever. And then I had to sort of try to fix the actions into one of those contexts. It took me a while to realize I could just create context and delete them at will. So my contexts are fluid. You know, we were on a 60 day trip and so I was like, you know, at the Willard, at this hotel, at, you know, and then when I didn't, I just deleted the context because I didn't need that location to remind me that I had a list of actions to take. Have you found that to be. Do people realize they can add and delete context as they need? Or is that something you found people would get stuck with?

Yes.

You'Re correct when Mark brought that up with it. Because they think that's so. That's too rigorous. I've got a very classy, wonderful lady.

She organized her context by emotional payoff.

I read that article.

Yeah, yeah, that was so cool. I've got a context called creative writing. It's an at computer list, but it's a very different psychological concept. I've been working on that actually before I got on with you guys. One of those articles, a new article on the Right. But that requires a very different kind of time frame in psychological context. And I found if I sort of morph that, if I imploded that into my at computer list, which has a lot of just business like things to do at computer. I didn't even want to look at the list because there were, there was, there was too much there. There were too many different aspects that I had to consider to make those choices. So it just created this barrier of entry for me and then I went pizza stuff. Okay, let me create a creative writing at computer list sublist. And made a huge difference because then I wasn't resisting either list. I could see them in the right context. So yeah, but it's a pretty sophisticated level to get to.

So you said before that things either attract or repel. There is no in between. Right. And so. And I think you may have told me that when something's repelling versus attracting, that's when you have to really think deep as to why that's occurring. Right. So you just gave the example of something that was repelling you thought, ah, creative writing. And like for you, you have, you have, you start a lot of projects, at least you used to with R and D, right, that you look into. And I do that too. But I found for myself learn was more, more attracting than R and D as an example. So do we then figure out that if there's, if something's repelling us, what do we do about that? If we look at those and go.

Ugh, by the way, if I put learn, I'm going to stop. Oh my God, there are too many things to learn. So it works for you? Wouldn't work for me. Dad got a project called Get Dutch on the cruise control. Since I'm living in Amsterdam and want to learn Dutch. If I said learn Dutch, I go. I think it's part of the big vision. But I have to have a project called Get Learning Dutch on the Krusdubro. So it's like I just need to make sure that how I'm learning Dutch is appropriate for me in some sort of thing. So that's why. So again, to your point marks, very unique and you need to be very creative with yourself. What works to do.

So I want to go back really quick to the context about emotions and then also bring up the whole idea of task momentum. And maybe this ties into the two minute rule that you have as well. Would you. Because you know the two minute things, you knock them out as they're right in front of you. If you can get it, get it done, get it done. Would you. Do you like, would you arrange your day more on emotion? So exactly what you just said, creative writing, you have that headspace, that time of the day or would it be more on task momentum, say like by duration? I know some folks are using the method that way.

I don't plan anything.

Our plan is I get by there because it changes.

What I feel like doing. So I think once you really get this, I mean my personal style is follow my spontaneous intuitive punch, which don't fence me here. So I plan as little as I get by them. I think you need to plan as much as you need to plan to get it off your mind. But that's all I do. And then free me up, do what I feel like doing and using the GDP system and sort of having that embedded in my DNA box, like trusting that intuitive choice. That's the key. Do I take a nap right now? Yeah, now you won't see nap on my calendar at all, but I take a nap probably 80% of.

80% of the time. I just do it when I feel like doing, but I just have the freedom to do that. So it's not a nap to avoid my life, it's a nap to enjoy a nap.

Because you know what you're not doing, right? Because I mean, it's not that you're ignoring the list, it's you know what the list is? You've looked at it.

Yeah, I go check everything and then go take a nap. I go check everything and then go, come here. I check everything. So then that creates a high performance, whether those are the right things to do or not.

But the truth is, as long as you have enough of those intelligent, mature compensations for yourself, then just keeping track of all this stuff, planning as little as you get by with, that leaves you the freedom to do the.

I.

Think is the most elegant place.

So real quick, follow up on that. So, David, why do you think that is? I mean, you know, look, you have changed the world, right? Which I know that we had your mind map and we've seen that you literally changed the world, right? And I know you're humble and what have you, but millions of people have been affected by gtd. It'll continue even after you've transited to the next level. And, you know, you're sort of this easygoing, quote unquote, lazy guy, right, Living in Amsterdam, you know, loving life, not doing much. And yet you've been able to manifest a global change. Is, is then that. Are you able to do that? Go from the dream to the reality because you're relaxed and you, what is it, what is it you say? Let go that God or something of that nature, you know, what is the secret, right, to your monumental success and happiness?

Yeah, probably all the above. I just do whatever it feels like doing so that I have a sense that I'm on whatever on means. And again, you know, I've been involved in exploring the invisible worlds that we live in and operate from for 45 years. So understanding that there's a whole lot of our world that we can't see that we are invested in and involved in that affect this level. They're not of this level, but they affect them tremendously. So I spend a lot of time, or not necessarily a lot of time, but I certainly spend a lot of my priority focus on is this what spirit would have me? What's next? Let me listen on that, okay? Because every one of us has a still small voice. I don't care what you call it, you call it myself, you call it God you can call it the smarter you. I don't.

Whoever it is. But that thing has a sense of humor, it loves you like crazy and it has huge patience and let you do whatever you want to do. It's still there. It won't go away whenever you can access that. So a lot of what the GTD process was, it made it a lot easier to have less distractions in my world so I could listen to the inner voice.

And I can see this, the inner voice is probably, you know, paying attention to that and you know, I have the great opportunity I would consider grace that I've been given the opportunity. So positive affects so many people in the world and you know, still my mission and vision right now is to make sure we have the world in a bombardment world. How cool would that be? Nobody's in complaining or victim mode ever. Because if it's got your attention, great. What's the outcome you're after? What's the next step? And if people could learn that and they'd be teaching them the 7, 8, 9 year old again. Oh, what a great way to think. And so changing, you know, you've heard of emotional intelligence. PPD in a way, is mental intelligence. Don't let their mind run you. Most people run in their mind as opposed to changing your mind and did that something bigger than your mind going on there. Change what your mind thinks about at any point in time, who's doing that and they're not paying attention to what your mind simply says, okay, you know, what happened to me, it's creating a lot of stress because of conflicting. But it's trying to manage internally because, you know, your brain's a shitty office, as I've said.

And so most people are trying to keep track of their life and their priorities and their networks inside of this terrible office. And it's like.

They'Re all in a bad pinball machine, banging around, being driven by ladies and ladders. So a lot of this is just being conscious of that stuff. But I suppose I'm getting off to good questions.

But.

A lot of my business. Yes, I had a vision. Oh, wouldn't it be really cool to have this kind of lifestyle, to do this kind of work and to have that kind of impact on the world? You know, when I was nine years old, I carried a penny around with me because the neighbor had Abraham Lincoln on it and he was my model in my aisle. How many cool things, how many people. He attracted me with his verge and his intelligence.

So I've always had that sense that wouldn't it be nice to be able to have that kind of impact? But I had absolutely no idea how it would happen.

That's interesting. No. So that's. David wanted to be president at one point in time. That was his dream. He was nine years old.

Right now it's like, oh, that's part of the last leg of the world.

It's a tough job.

That's probably true for most people.

Somebody asked me a very smart question. He said, david, why do you want that? What experience do you think that would give you? And you know, smart question, because everybody ought to identify their fantasy and embarrass themselves, but then ask themselves, why do you think you want that? Why do you want to be the greatest guitar player in the world? Why do you want to be the right people to win the Nobel laureate or whatever? Why do you want to be.

What's the experience you're looking for? And I had to honestly answer that. The experience was I felt like I had things of value to share with people.

And so it's. A very good friend of mine said, so, David, what could you do right now that could give you an arena where you could get more people's attention? And I walked away from that practice conversation. I remember very specifically, very clear about what was.

So, David, a quick question as a follow up to the six levels of horizon and what we're just talking about now. When celebrities like Will smith, Robert Downey Jr. Howard Stern, drew Carey, you know, because those are well known guys, they're all gtders, right? For those listening, those are guys that all do gtd. I don't know if you've coached them personally. One of your coaches have coached him. Do you find that people who are more, quote unquote, successful in sort of living a bigger life, making more money, whatever have you may have either bigger or clear six levels of horizon versus somebody who isn't or doesn't have that level of success defined by their own terms.

I think they have an interest in it. Not that they've actually defined it yet, but they're curious about it. And, you know, it's kind of like once you've had it, once you've smoked enough dope, once you've, you know, people, once you've made enough money, once you've eaten all the best food, once you've had the best wine, at some point you go, is this it?

Yeah. Right.

So there's. I think there's a version of is this it? You know, that sits inside of most of those people. That's what drove them to get to where they were to begin with.

But I think that those are lifelong learners. You know, all the people you mentioned.

And you said that, you told me once, and I'd heard you said this many times before, that those who are most interested in gtd, first of all, they need it the least. Right? You've talked about those who need the most are less inclined. I think that's normal for most. But really, the one common factor that you said you found that most GTD practitioners who I would consider to be more successful than most, by definition of my view, is that they're lifelong learners. Right. They really just are always.

Finding out, like you say, how to get from A to B with the least amount of effort. In order to do that, I've got to learn.

And it could be I want to leave work earlier or I want to have more time to think, or I want to have more, not necessarily be busy or making more money. Again, a lot of gotten to those levels of gain.

So there's no right or wrong about what it is.

You know, as you know, productivity's got a lot of baggage. As a word.

Yes.

Well, that just means work hard or slept, whatever. Discipline, rigor, and I got food. You know, come on, you go to a party to boogie, and you know, boogie is an unproductive party. Party.

You know, come on, hey, you take the afternoon. I want to relax this afternoon. You don't relax. That's an unproductive afternoon. So productivity simply says achieving the desired results. So what's the desired result? So that's a lot of what the people who really kind of are attracted to gtd, I think, are people who are into desired results that have not been achieved yet. You know, there. And come on, all of us kind of. The more, you know, the more, you know, you know, don't know. Right. You get, the better you better get. It's going to open up new horizons for yourself and opportunities to influence the world in a way you've never done before or to express yourself or to have a sense of fulfillment you never had before or that you would like more of. So, yeah, and that, I suppose that's a hallmark of a life.

I like that. And to go back really quick, it seems like this is a great way to just find your flow and where you should be focusing your energy. Like you said, the spirit, however, you.

Know, and guys, it never gets easier.

I believe it.

No, but that, you know, that's like martial arts. It never gets easier. It just gets more interesting and more subtle. And more sophisticated and more impactful with what you learn. And so it's not about easy, you know, come on. As I say, you don't have to like your life to get about your mind. So I'm not a motivational speaker, you know, I don't care how you feel, I don't care what your mom did with you. For what are you doing with that piece of paper on your desk? What does it mean to you? Because you're a victim of it and you get in control of it. So I just found a little key to get people back in the silent saddle of their life. And that could look like a lot of different things. Looks like a lot of different things for Bill Smith. A lot of different things for a nine year old. But it's the same principle. So what was fascinating is, you know, as you know, we just launched the Getting things Done for Teens book. And it is as sophisticated as the first edition of the bookcase. It's all the same stuff in there. It's just. Look, a CEO needs to empty their briefcase after the board meeting with all the business cards they got in all the notes they took at a board meeting, figure out what to do with it. A nine year old just has to empty his or her pack at the end of the day, find the note that the teacher needs signed by mom. Same thing. Sure. If either one of them forgets to do that, they're screwed.

Well, I would just imagine as a kid it's an amazing tool for a procrastination. I would imagine it would squash that right there in its face. But think about things like I'm just thinking the emotional baggage, bullying and other things that kids have to go through late elementary and middle school, tough times, high school. That's a perfect tool.

Yeah, yeah. And come on, this is challenging stuff. As I say, there are no problems, only projects. So come on, how subtle can that get? So if kid's got a bullying problem, what's the project? I need to handle this. I need to find some way to feel better about this. And so they're trying to teach a kid that that is a way to start to think about that so they actually start to take control at whatever minor levels they may need to do that or that that could be transformational, especially if they learn that age and learn that process of serving the rest of their lives.

So I have a question about your book. So I believe you republished it in 2015 was when it was re released. Now what, what changed between the original release date and the 2015 release what Change? What sort of things happened in that time frame that made you decide, okay, I need to make an updated version of this?

Yeah, well, 15 years.

I don't think it'd be facetious, but essentially, if you read the book in 2015, if you read the original edition, there's some out of dateness in there. And so there were two things. First of all, I wanted to get rid of most of the references I made the technology. I wanted to make some technology references in First Edition because most people didn't realize how they could use technology like Palm Pilot and Lotus Notes and Microsoft Outlook, how those things could be very powerful tools. So I referenced those things. Now I took out all those references because they're ubiquitous, they're changing every week or whatever. And so I didn't want to date it with any kind of thing. And most people got so wrapped around the tool as opposed to the process. Second thing that changed was the breadth of the audience. First edition in 2001 was really addressed to the high, the high profile, fast track professional because they were the ones dealing with the tsunami of email right then and had the most interest and potentially money by training and education around this. So that was really focus of the first edition 1 professionals. And so a lot of the vocabulary and the language around that, even though we tried as best we could to make that as evergreen as possible and take out as many buzzwords as we could from that book. So it could have lasted a long time. But then at a certain point, I guess the third thing was that over those years I discovered that the principles of GPD had more subtlety that could be better explained with, with some twists in the vocabulary. For instance, I change collect to capture.

I change process to clarify, I change review to reflect, and I change do to engage. So if you think about that, the subtlety of those words makes a lot of difference. It very much expands the nature and subtlety and sublimities as we of what the GDD process is about. Because Collect just has kind of a passive idea to gather the stuff you've already created out there, capture and say, wait a minute, what are all the things that I might need to think about that I need to write? So there's an expansive, more of an expansive and creative aspect of the process that I wanted to clarify better. So I changed some of the languages, but methodology only the same.

Yeah. And I think the big important part, I know something that I have improvement to in my own process in doing this is the weekly review and making sure everything is staying on point. So does that involve. How would you, I guess look at the inbox. All these captured ideas that you speak of here. Is that the weekly review element of it or would you.

No, the weekly review is ideally, you do a weekly review. After all, all of your inboxes are zero.

Got it? Yeah.

You need to lift up from that. I've got several people. A good friend of mine in Texas, he does his week. He does his cleanup on Thursday night. Thursday night, he gets everything zeroed out. No backlog, email, mail, physical things, anything. So then Friday morning, the first two hours are elegant week interview. It starts with the very clear day. I wouldn't make that a necessity. Basically anytime anybody, anywhere, see stops the world and takes an hour and looks at wait a minute, what are all the things I'm doing? What are all my commitments at whatever level of game you've got that identified is going to improve your life significantly. It's the biggest need and it's probably the most challenging habit to build.

Don't feel like the load's favorite.

Yeah, that's definitely. I feel like there's a personality thing there, but it's, you know, I'm sure there's a habit that you form. Would you recommend a way to. And this is kind of a selfish question, a good way to instill this habit of GTD in everyday life for folks. Well, kind of resisting.

Well, that's a big question. You know, installing habits, that's a good thing. BJ Fogg with tiny habits is great. Charles Dewey with Power of Habit is great. So there's some, you know, folks doing research about how do you. How do you actually change habits? And there's. They've got some great tips about all that. Generally speaking, you need to get used to what it's like to have a clear head and feel uncomfortable. If you don't, again, it's back to your addiction, your stress, your willingness to tolerate how many unprocessed emails for how long. Right. I'm not, I mean they're, you know, I get on a roll sometimes and sometimes I go through it through and I may actually have two or three screen files of email that is uncomfortable. So as soon as I can pull the world back, when I'm done doing anything else, I'm cleaning up. Backlog to zero. Supplies are coming through. I can't see and I want to zero it out backlog so that I make real good, clean choices about how to engage with those things. I didn't expect. Once you get used to that, you can't help doing it once you get used to what it's like to have your mouth clean or body clean, you'll be brushing your teeth and taking showers as regularly as you need to to get back to that. So that's the essence essentially of building a GTD habit is building, you know, raising the bar internally of what you expect and what you feel uncomfortable with in terms of unprocessed, unclarified, unorganized stuff that you know, have your attention. So you know, that's the big game. Just called keep going. Keep going. Love it.

That's it.

Keep going. That's really, keep coming back on.

It's really interesting, right, because we just took a 60 day vacation and the whole point was like you said, the outcome was to engage with the family and the kids and experience and see and all these components and without gtd there's no way I could have done it. There's just no way I couldn't have kept a clear head. And whenever I had five, 10 minutes here, I'd clean a little backlog up. I'd change my whole context and projects content and it was I think and it was incredible. And whenever I began to feel that my, that I wasn't 100% present and or a little bit aggro, annoyed, I knew I needed to do a week review even for 20 minutes. Right. And then of course after that I felt like just marvelous. Would you say, David, that what is the greatest obstacle for those learning GTD and what is the greatest singular thing they could do? Like what's the biggest bottleneck and what's the one thing that if they start as a keystone habit, for example, you know, your Charles Duhigg reference, what would it be? I know you're going to say, but just kind of curious.

Yeah, write it down. Make an exact decision. That's it. Those, those are the real keystone habits. Write it down. Make next actual decision. Probably the third would be a zero out.

Those are the keystone habits.

Probably empty my in desk is my keystone habit because there's all kinds of things I still.

But I'm looking at my inbascular but I got to get back to zero. Okay, I'll make the decision.

But just because I have the habit that I've gotten used to, like having clean teeth and having clean potties, having showered, having that invested at zero gets me to make a lot of decisions I would avoid like the plague if I didn't have that standard built in. So those are the anecdotes of the. But more than the weekly Review.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you could start anywhere. As a matter of fact, one of the new articles I'm writing is the most important place to start for ggp. The most important place. And this is like. Absolutely. There's no exception to this. This is the final rule, the best place to start with GPT. That's what the answer is.

Anywhere. That's funny. So true.

Find a pile over in the corner of your office, clean it up, clean a drawer.

Just take anything that's got your attention. Make the next action decision, set some goal. I don't care. Start anywhere. All of these things, you know, if you do any one of them, you know, has a reverberation effect across all the other components of the process. So it's a holistic model. So, yes, ideally, read the book, follow directions. Part two of Getting Things Done walks you through to Getting Things Done process or hire a GPU certified coach, actually sit by you and have you walk through the process. Those would be sort of star level implementation. Where do you start? But otherwise.

Which I've done, by the.

Way, not only had you come, but I also hired Meg for a while to coach me. Oh, yeah, no, I just talked to her the other day. She is just. I mean, all of your coaches are unbelievable. I mean they're just what a world of knowledge that you have. They're just all incredible.

She was born to do that, no doubt about it. That's really interesting. So would you. For those that are listening now who either have implemented some or implemented other, you know, like a little bit or haven't fully done it, I don't know if you've experienced this, but I'm sure you have. I was. I thought it was a good. Now remember, I've been doing this for 15 years, right? Or at least I think I'm doing 15 years. I'm on an OKG TV. Er, but there was a moment a few years ago where I made a commitment just to write everything, I mean, everything down, not the things I mean, everything down. And the difference between capturing 100% and capturing 99% was monumental for me. It was night and day. I thought, oh my gosh, I've been doing it so poor. The last 10 years is different between getting everything off my mind and just getting most off my mind. Do you think that's true for most people?

Well, you're gonna hear my schizophrenia.

My schizophrenia is. I'm a very. Two different minds. Do anything and it will help. But if you don't do everything, don't do anything. Wait, what.

If you're not doing 100%, you don't trust either your head or your system.

That's exactly right.

Right, right.

Yes.

But anything you do, write anything down, you're going to feel better. So that's the two minds I have. Either, you know, either keep everything out of your head or just don't keep anything in your head. Throw away your calendar, throw away your grocery list, throw away everything and just let yourself follow your intuitive hunches and hope God gives you the phone number.

He hasn't done that yet, or she hasn't done that yet. So I'm still keeping the telephone and address, you know, and looking at those things like the great saying, trust in Allah and tie your camel.

Right. So do you think that's the best counter argument for these folks that are disingenuous about the GTD process but yet keep a calendar? I mean, come on, you can't.

I mean, try to intellectually justify halfway in between, either hence the whole stuff or it's not.

Anybody. I've never had anybody, I've challenged the world for 30 years. Anybody give me any reason that halfway in between works.

Either heads to place the whole remembers and reminding things. And again, you know, cognitive science for the last 10 years pretty much validate about four things about all you can have in your head and maintain appropriate, remember, reminded and prioritizing in relationship, add a fifth, you're fine.

You'Re driven by language and loudest.

Basically.

No, I love this. I'm personally a gtder too, but one of the things I find myself doing is with the GTD process and unloading my brain. I usually unload all the business stuff that comes up, but a lot of the personal stuff like discussions with my wife or something I have to do with the kids, they don't actually make the list a lot of times. But you know, from the sounds of things, I really shouldn't be differentiating. It just all should go, go in there.

I do. I use no shoulds. If you want a clear head, you must.

100%. Yep, 100% or nothing.

I love it. See this, this is now. Now we're getting into the adamant aspect of the gt, right? Because when it comes down to it though, right, David, as peace loving and wonderful as you are, you do have certain standards that you're like, look, man, let's cut the bs, right? Because I happen to agree with you. Obviously there is nothing better than GTD for being productive. There just isn't. There's nothing better for being engaged. There really isn't. I've tried, believe me, I have tried. I've read them all, I've tried them all. I've tried to blow them. I have not been able to cover it. And the more I've tried, the more I go back to realizing, wow, the efficacy and ubiquitous of this methodology. And I know you're super mellow, but isn't there part of you that's like, wants to grab the world by the neck and just shake and be like, come on, people, just do this the right way and your life will change for the better?

Yeah, but I, you know, I don't have the personality to really do that sort of thing. I kind of sublimate that a little bit. And we're going to do a global GPD summit in Amsterdam.

Like we did 10 years after our first GTB summit in 2009, and, you know, basically have a venue for 1500 people from around the world that the objective of that is basically to put a stake in the ground that says we need a world with no problems.

So who's got that? And, you know, there's a part of me that.

I just, you know, I don't like feeling frustrated. I don't like feeling any of that stuff. So I just go, hey, you know, a world with no problems, only projects, I'm not going to see in my life.

I'll see pieces of it in various places. But as someone said many years ago, I ran across a consultant, said, look, if your professional goal is not something that, if it's something that, if it isn't something that you can't achieve by the time you die, you're not playing a big enough game.

So I said, okay, well, cool. It was kind of nice for us to really identify it. It didn't really make that up. That's really been a lot of the driver for me and Kathryn and all of us evolved in the company as we developed this methodology. That was really sitting underneath all of this was this sense that we knew how valuable this was for anybody to improve their life, but not wanting to beat anybody up to do it. You've got to come to the well yourself.

I have a question that's sort of related to earlier. You talked about the intuitive voice and the spirit and then the mind, right? So the intuitive voice sort of running the mind, not the mind running itself and going from latest to loudest. Would it be appropriate visualization to say that GTD methodology allows the spirit sort of a dashboard by which to direct the mind to achieve or manifest whatever it wants most?

The Spirit, Yeah, yeah. It's really an information methodology for here in the material world. It's really about that. And so though GTD in itself in a way is not spiritual unless everything is.

It manifests a principle that at least in my experience and my hypothesis is a lot of why we're here spiritually on the planet is to be accountable for things we haven't created, where we put our creative energy.

Whatever you want, hey, if you put it out, you're going to eat it. Put it out, you're going to get reflected back what you can put out. So that's a part of what the human experience is. And then once you learn that, to find out who you really are and what you ought to be creating, you can't stop creating. So it's like you need to be accountable for the things you have created. Clean up the mess, clean up the incompletions and you need to be accountable for then where you now start to create so that you create as little karma as possible and get yourself off the planet. So that's my own working hypothesis of why we're here and what we're doing. So in that way, when I take a nine year old and say, what's this thing in your pack? You just collect it and get them to make a decision about what it is and what it means for them. What they. I just put them back in the driver's seat of their life.

So that's the inspiration that I have that I go, wow. I was able to find a language and a methodology that I didn't have to convince anybody about any of these sort of aspects, but they apply the song of aspect and then they get the benefit of that. Those that have ears to hear and eyes to see would tend to notice the other spectrum.

Really good.

I want to be respectful of your time. How are you looking? Should we wrap it up there?

How you looking, David? Hey, good morning.

Just making sure here. All right, so I guess outside of the GTD book, we're always curious what's a book that you might reference often or some guide or some kind of content that you find yourself looking at once a year at least.

Yeah, nothing I really look at kind of on a regular basis like that.

You know, they're great books that sort of come across my field of vision every once in a while. It's like really, really, really cool stuff. Just read a book. I just did a TEDx in Curacao and a guy who was on stage with me who also did a presentation.

Stephen wrote a book Called Breaking Rank. It's a fabulous book about why a lot of third world cultures built in this self image if they were less than the white man. How that's affected everything. It's such a powerful book and it's very really common sense stuff. It's a whole lot about the positive psychology aspects of beliefs and caravans and how they.

So every once in a while I run across books like that. I Instagram the picture of that.

C O M T H I N O.

Fabulous book. And of course over the last, you know, two or three or four years, Dale Coppernonelli's book Breaking Change. A lot about his research brain, cognitive science world. Dan Levitan's book the Organized Mind. Those are, those are great things and nothing else. The secret from life of trees. Yeah, incredible. So I, you know, there's nothing, nothing I go back to.

But the impactful ones.

Yeah, got it.

Well, yeah. Any, any other things. Matt Marks.

Marks, do you have anything else you wanted to ask before we.

I could have David for hours on end. So I'll probably the wrong guy to ask if any more questions because you know.

I always go back to DTD books and making it work and 52 productivity principles. I always go back to David's work. If I need inspiration, I read the 52 principles. If I think I need a mono control, I read GTD If I think I need more perspective which David says is the most rarest commodity in the world, I read Making it All Work. I'm constantly rereading and reapplying and re watching him on YouTube and I can't stress enough that GTD really is. David says it's like a martial art. I've been a martial artist most of my life. He's right. In so many different levels it genuinely is the operating system to have a happier, more productive life by whatever definition you want, whether it's being just moment present, being rich, being happy, it doesn't matter. And you can customize it for you. It's agnostic in terms of systems as David says. In terms of whether you use, you know, Lotus Notes or Omnifocus, it doesn't matter. Right. As long as you can create lists and as long as you follow the process. So I think the best thing in my opinion anybody can do is into GTD is make it a long life habit and realize that when you think you know something, you need to go back and recheck because you don't know.

It the way you think you know it.

And at least that's what that's true for me. And, you know, and taking the 60 day trip has just solidified how incredible and amazing a life with GTD as your tool can become. And, you know, and David, it's all because of you. I mean, wow, what an incredible thing you've created. Just unbelievable.

Well, thank you, Mark. You're certainly a poster child.

Student for sure.

It's amazing. And Marks. Yeah, thanks for making the introduction and also teaching us kind of the foundation of the GGD method as well, because it's already changing how we function.

Well, I didn't teach you that foundation. I told you to read the book.

True, we did do that.

So I just introduced it because that is not my thing. I knew that for David and his coaches. But yeah, I mean, look, all I can do is share my experience and whatever that may be. But really, for anybody who I think is interested in it, you know, David's got these coaches worldwide and man, they are honestly, they are unbelievable. And just an ad with someone like Meg would blow your mind. Just because it's. I can't even describe the wisdom and the knowledge she has and ability to ask questions what she does and then give you tips. It makes shifts that have a monumental.

Incredible impact in the future. You don't even know yet. At least it's been my experience.

Thanks, Marks. So, and by the way, happy guys to come back. Invite me again. We'll come back. We can do it.

Marks.

YouTube. Let's do a revisit.

Definitely.

Especially if you guys get any feedback from elitist. Happy to. Or any questions you have from your audience if they want to pose either of your marks.

I think we should challenge Matt and Joe to do a GTD by the book process in 90 days and then revisit the podcast in 90 days to see have they done it. What's been the life change. Because, you know, I think the podcast, in my opinion, is my game goal to do it, not just to understand it.

Right.

Because the benefits come from implementation. So, you know, that's up to Joe and Matt. If they want to take on that.

Challenge, I would accept that challenge.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I'm already doing the GTD stuff. I just need to go deeper with it.

You will? We will. So, yeah. Challenge accepted.

Yeah, exactly.

All right, David, really quick before we hang up, where should people go find you or find your coaches?

Yeah. GettingThingsDone.com.

Has a list of all of our global partners and everybody that they can then contact to find out. We've got public seminars about this. We've got coaches that are doing this work, etc. So that's a great place to start a free newsletter. Sign up.

Perfect.

Awesome.

All right, well, thank you so much, both of you guys for your time and looking forward to 90 days from now or so.

Have a good one. Thank you.

Thanks, David. Much love to you guys. See you later.

Bye.

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