David Wood - A Simple Framework For Handling Tough Conversations

I just coached someone who. She goes nuts when someone says, like, too much. Like, she did that, and then she, like, did that. She can't even focus. And someone was coaching her on how to fix that and change it. And I said, no, I don't want you to do that yet. I want you to just name it and be honest about it and lean into it and let the person know. Wow. You know what I noticed? I can't even focus on what you're saying. You're not doing anything wrong, but I just go nuts when this happens. Name it, tell the truth, and start to accept that about yourself before you even try and change it. So that's. I want her to like herself more and eventually to love herself more.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Mount Wolf and Joe Fear. Yo.

Hey.

Hey.

Welcome back.

Welcome back. And it's a good day. It's sunny here in San Diego. Still in lockdown, though.

Yes, it's been. The weather here in San Diego has been very ocd. Not ocd. What's the word I'm looking for?

Bipolar.

There it is. Yeah, it's like, rainy one day, perfectly clear the next day, rainy the next day, perfectly clear the next day. It's freezing hot.

Get outside, folks, if you can, because if you're in lockdown, definitely go get some vitamin D if you can, or just get some fresh air because you go stir crazy. Like, I think I'm starting to here.

Yeah, and take some vitamin D, too.

Yeah, that helps. Yeah. Listen to Ted's episode about cold supplements you probably should be taking right now.

Yeah.

Theo.

Sorry, Theo's episode, not Ted.

All right, so let's talk about this episode. We have an amazing guy named David Wood on the show, and he. He has an interesting background. He has interesting work in what he does now, working with businesses, but all the way over to literally prisoners and prison wardens and maximum security security prisons. And it's scary, scary stuff, but the same mechanism throughout the whole thing. And actually in this episode, so you have the opportunity to get it for free, this mechanism we're talking about. But also actually here in role played fashion with Matt doing this thing in real time with David.

What do you think about that? Well, first of all, yeah, let's give them where they can go get that document.

Yeah. So if you go to PlayForReal Life. PlayForReal Life, he's got a whole worksheet that you can work through for having these tough conversations. And that's really what this whole episode was about was how do, how do you approach conversations you don't want to have with your spouse, with a business partner, with an employee, with a boss? You know, it's about how to approach these tough conversations that you sort of get anxious or worked up about. And if you follow this framework, then you really shouldn't get too worked up about these conversations. It's just, it becomes a process. And not a personal emotional thing. It's just a process that you work through. And like you said, we did some actual role playing with a real scenario that we dealt with months and months ago. And you know, actually doing the role playing makes me a little bit more nervous to release this episode. But it is what it is. And the, the role playing through a real scenario that we had in our business is in this episode.

So, hey, guess what? It's what probably other business owners are definitely facing and have gone through or are thinking about doing just with that example alone that you did with David. But obviously working through this sheet, what's really cool and what you'll realize and we'll talk about is, you know, we're in our heads a lot. There's a lot of emotional thing. Emotional things, emotions in general as humans that we, we get a lot of anxious from anxiety from. We. We think that's reality, but like, if we, if we're stuck in our head in those emotions, it's not reality. That's why this document exists, to kind of bring out a process, a logical process where you can uncover actually what to do right now. And it'll, it'll just build into a better future for everybody anyway. So, yeah, in this process, it'll work.

For employees, it'll work for your spouse, it'll work for your boss, It'll work for.

Anybody. So it's a process around having tough conversations, no matter who you're talking to.

That's right. All right, so we took the notes for you on this episode and you'll hear Matt in role playing mode and probably some scenarios and ways and that'll be in note form as well. But definitely, you know, grab, grab David's sheet and we link it up in the show notes and all that stuff too. But get the notes for this one. It's hustleandflowchart.com computer c o m p hustleflowchart.com comp. It's free for a couple weeks and you know, from the time this episode going live. So that's just a great way to get them Cliff Notes versions of what we're talking about here.

Yep. You can also text the word comp to 38470. We'll get you them that way as well. And also this episode is sponsored by Ahrefs.

That is Ahrefs. Yes. Ahrefs is our almost like, you know, we've called it the cheat. Cheat Codes to traffic, basically SEO, even some paid traffic stuff as well. It's just really interesting. We're always finding new things. Literally. Like, it sounds like a broken record sometimes when we say this, like, oh my God, there's something new. It's like, no, this is legit. Every time. There's like a new way to essentially get a leg up or an advantage in getting traffic to your site.

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Heck yeah. So get ahrefs.com and you will love it.

Yep. Let's go talk to David.

All right, David, welcome to the show, man. How you doing?

Hey. I'm good, thank you. I'm happy to be here. And Matt, I gotta say, I like how your guitar is casually placed on that chair in the background. It says, I'm a musician. That's right.

Yeah.

Well, part of the thing with guitars is if they're like out of sight, I'll never touch it. If it's like right next to me, then I will randomly walk by, grab it, play for two minutes and set it down again. So that's kind of thinking about having it just like out in the open.

I'm going to move my guitar back onto my couch because same thing. I just watched yes man again with Jim Carrey and so. And so I've been playing. Wish you'd step back from that ledge, my friend. So fun.

I love it.

Yeah, I'll have to learn that one. I don't think I know that song.

All right, so good. It's called Jumper.

No, no, I know, I know of the song. I just don't think I've ever tried to play it on guitar.

Yeah, yeah. That's a classic. Yeah. Ironically, I just hung. All right. My wife just hung my guitar in my living room because of the same exact reason. So now there's no excuse.

All right.

I'm riding guitar on my hand.

There you go, man.

Well, you guys any value already?

I. Bringing joy to the world through music and creativity.

So now, I mean. Yeah, we're telling you. We typically record in person. Matt and I do at least. Where are you locked up these days, David?

I'm in Boulder, Colorado.

Okay. Yeah.

And I live in the mountains and. And I'm not locked up.

Oh. Yeah.

I live in the mountains and that's true. I was, I was leaving the house once a week if at all to do some shopping and see people get my face to face fix and now I just don't do that. But I. There is no change really for my lifestyle.

I don't, I don't feel like I've had a very much of a lifestyle change off of this either. I mean, I pretty much work out of home every day anyway. I'm an introvert, so I don't really make huge efforts to get out and talk to people all the time anyway.

Right.

The store a little less and you know, running errands and things like that. A little less than normal.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, it's. It's funny because I had a baby five and a half months ago, my wife did, and I feel like that trained us to be homebodies because we definitely were not prior to this. We would go out, go to dinner, see friends, all that fun stuff. But having the baby, I'm like, yeah, just like what you guys said. I'm like, I haven't really felt a big difference. And we're very, I'm very fortunate to say that. You know, we're all fortunate to say that most people aren't able to say.

That, but yeah, I think the biggest change is when we do calls like this. Joe and I are in two different places now and that's sort of been a getting used to thing, but different.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the way we typically start these shows off is we like to get your. Your backstory. We like to get kind of like how you got into this. I know you, you work with prison inmates and you work with CEOs and you've had some, some interesting experiences over your lifetime. Maybe we can dive into some of that and some of the story behind how you got into doing what you're doing now.

Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, I began life as an actuary basically. I was good at math and I did well at school and I was going to be an accountant. But then we found out that an actuary seemed really hard to qualify. There was some prestige to it. And basically for listeners who don't know, an actuary deals with long term financial projections like 50 to 100 years, calculates probability statistics, probability of people dying, and will sign.

Forms required by legislation to say that a pension fund will stay solvent over the next 50 years or that this premium is valid for this life insurance company. They do things like that. Suffice it to say, I'm a total geek, I'm a total nerd. But I had a little bit of personality. So I went to a consulting company, one of the biggest HR consulting firms in the world. And my clients were Sony Music and Ford and Exxon and Chanel. And at the age of 24, I mean, you could say I'd kind of made it. I moved from Australia to Park Avenue and I even had a little, had a ponytail at the time. And I'm like, I'm so good I can have a ponytail. And well, it turns out I wasn't that good because they just let me see Sony Music and Chanel and they wouldn't let me go and see any other clients. And finally someone said, you're an idiot. And I said, why? He said, well, you're trying to be successful in spite of a ponytail. That's your challenge. And he said to me, why don't you be successful in spite of telling the truth all the time. Something like that. And you know what? I've done a hundred interviews and I never put that together until now that my life is about speaking the truth. And he said that to me way back then. So I cut my ponytail the next day and they started bringing me to Philip Morris and some of the really big, big companies. But I wasn't happy. And someone suggested I do a self help seminar. And I'm like, I don't want to be one of those self help junkies that's so weak they just can't think for themselves. But I went along because I'd never done anything like that and I wasn't happy in my marriage. And so I go and do the seminar and they cracked my cynicism. I didn't know that some people actually care about the world and just devote their life to making the world better. And I wasn't very emotional, as it turns out. Well, it turns out I knew this, but I didn't know the impact it had on my life. When I was 7, I had a tragedy and my family, my little sister was killed in a traffic accident. And I was there. I witnessed it. Now, we didn't know about PTSD back then. And so I just, I just went on with my life. But apparently what happened is I just shut down all the emotional side. I got greater business and systems, but I didn't know anything about vulnerability or deep connection or emotional intelligence. So when I discovered this self help stuff, I was like, oh my God, there's a whole world out here I didn't know about. So the first 25 years of my life were about left brain systems and getting great at business and business consulting. The last 25 years have been about the other stuff. It's about telling the truth and about.

Learning. You know, I'm hesitant to say this because people have a reaction to it, but learning to actually like myself more has been the journey. That's a joke.

Pretty big theme we've had. Sorry. Kamal Ravikant and he has, you know, he had this book he put out this year, love yourself like your life depends on it. And it's essentially what you're saying right there. And there was immense amount of feedback from the folks that listened to him on this show. But also just in his book, I think that's a, it's a more powerful statement that you're saying right there than ever right now. And something that a lot of people don't think about.

Yeah, they told me when I started coaching 20 something years ago, they talked about guerrilla coaching, which is like covert coaching. What I'm really about is I want people to accept all parts of themselves. I can see where people.

Have a contraction because they're like, oh, I can't say that because that's embarrassing. And I don't want this person to think that about me. And I just coach someone who she goes nuts when someone says like too much, like he did that. And then she like did that. She can't even focus. And someone was coaching her on how to fix that and change it. And I said, no, I don't want you to do that yet. I want you to just name it and be honest about it. And Lean into it and let the person know. Wow. You know what I noticed? I can't even focus on what you're saying. You're not doing anything wrong. But I just go nuts when this happens. Name it, tell the truth, and start to accept that about yourself before you even try and change it. So that's. I want her to like herself more and eventually to love herself more. But I don't say it up front because that's kind of weird. So people come to me. They're like, I want my business to be better. I want to be a leader at work. Okay, great. And then covertly, that's what we're working on in the background.

And this might be jumping ahead. So maybe we dog for later. But when you say name that thing. So if you. You said, like, or, you know, any kind of tendency or habit. Habitual thing. What do you mean by name that thing?

Yeah. I'm so glad you asked me because I'm very excited about this. What hap. What happens? Let's say you and I are talking. We're glossing over. So much as we speak, my mind's jumping ahead. Your mind's jumping ahead. You'll say something, and then I'll think of something that I'll say something. But there are so many things that are happening in the interaction. Maybe you said something and I felt a little contracted.

Like.

I caught up with some mates from school. I did a bit of a reunion call, and I told them about a medicine journey that I'm doing. Like a substance that I'm experimenting with. And they're all laughing.

And I felt shut down. This is a really important exploration for me. And they're just making jokes about it. I didn't name it. I didn't name that thing that was going on. Like, wow, you know, I could see why you guys make so much fun of this. And this is actually important to me.

Yeah.

Like, that's something. We tend to gloss over it, and we gloss over it for ourselves. My mind won't even say to me, oh, you're feeling contracted right now. Oh, David, you know, you're feeling a bit shut down. And you'd like these guys to listen and you'd like a chance to explain. All this is happening so fast. So we want to slow down and notice what's going on for ourself, and then we have a chance to reveal it to the other person.

Yeah. So it's almost like a feeling that you're, you know, identify this. Yeah. The emotion maybe that you're. You're feeling from another when they project that on you. And it might be something that you just gloss over.

Yeah.

Being. But now that you're aware of it, you can do something about it.

Yes. And people know about the expression address the elephant in the room. I love that there's something really big between us. I. You know, someone catches up with an ex girlfriend that they cheated on, and it's not even talked about. But it's the tensions between the two. There's an elephant in the room. But I'm saying name the mouse in the room. Doesn't have to be a big thing. Can be something very small or subtle. Like, I was on a podcast just before this, and I told a very embarrassing story, and the podcast host didn't say anything in response that was, you know, maybe that wasn't a mouse. That might be a hedgehog in the room. And I didn't say anything.

Yeah.

And I said it at the end. I said, I wish I'd said at the moment, was that too much information for you or your audience? Because it was lying there. And he said at the end, when I brought it up, he said, I will edit that out for sure. So I had picked up on it, but I just glossed over it. It's such a habit. And I want everyone to name the mouse, make the implicit explicit. Hey, I made up a story that. That was too much for you. I want to check in. We could have done that live.

That's true. Yeah. And you're right. I mean, there's so many things we gloss over. And, you know, it's really the whole thinking of a lot of a little things. A lot of mouses, mice to that elephant. You know, obviously that little mouse can scare the shit out of an elephant, too.

Yeah. I really think I'm going to be writing a book, and I think it's going to be called Name that mouse.

I like it. I like it a lot.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So what. What sort of things started happening in your life once. Once you sort of figured out that, hey, I'm. I'm. This PTSD kind of thing is still within me. I am withdrawal. I am holding back. You know, what, what. What sort of changes did you make? And then what were. What were some of the results from those changes?

Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm seeing two questions there, and I'll say what they are, and I think I can answer both. The first one is about the, like, the impact that that tragedy had. The way it manifested, I think, was in intimacy. My first partner, I Broke up with her eight times.

And I didn't know why, but that was the first way. And then I went. Eventually I went to therapy and they discovered, oh, wow, you never grieved properly. They weren't even talking about PTSD back then, unless you're a war veteran. But then it manifested in terms of anxiety when I would be separated from my partner or we're facing a breakup that I didn't initiate. I would stop sleeping and could not control my body. And that's. Then I'm anxious about the anxiety because, like, my biggest fear was a nervous breakdown. I just. The logical conclusion, if I cannot sleep and I cannot control the anxiety, I'm going to be in a loony bin, was my thinking. And I'm pretty sure that's a politically incorrect term, but that was the thought.

Don't worry, we're not going to edit it out.

That was the thought that was going through my mind. And then ultimately depression, because the two go together. So I've had 20, 25 years of anxiety and depression on and off, and it's been really one of the hardest things for me to learn how to cope with. And so I've learned a whole lot of things, from medication to yoga to the Byron Katie work, to exercise to nutrition, to therapy. I've done so much, and today I'm pretty solid and stable. And somehow I've managed to create a successful business over 25 years. So I want anyone who's listening who has any kind of health issue or massive challenge, you're not alone, and it's possible for you to be successful. And also, wherever you are.

Is just right.

I don't know if that was your question, but that was the first question that I heard.

No, no, that was.

That.

That was a great response. And I know I, I personally have battles with anxiety quite often. You know, they, they, they come and go, and when they come, I can say that they're usually around tough conversations that I know have to happen that haven't happened yet or that I'm avoiding. And I know that's sort of a big topic of what you talk about. You know, you talk about with CEOs, you talk about it with prison inmates. And I want to get into, you know, some of the differences you talk about with both of those groups. I mean, I'm sure it's probably a lot of the same stuff, but I'm curious about the differences there. But before we do, you know, I, It's. It all comes down to the tough conversations for me. When I, Whenever I'm struggling with, with anxiety. I always know in the back of my mind it's because like man, there's, there's something in my head that I need to talk with Joe about that I'm like dreading talking about or something that I need to talk with one of our team members about that I'm dreading talking about something I need to talk to my wife about that I'm dreading talking about. It's always seems to be. Not always, but most of the time the anxiety comes from conversations that I know need to happen that aren't happening or haven't happened yet. And so what advice are you giving people around that specific thing that I know I need to talk about this, but I'm struggling to get the words out and this anxiety is sort of crippling me from having these conversations.

Yeah, well, I've got some very practical steps. In fact, I have a four step care model C a r E of tough conversations that can make a huge difference. But first I want to double click on what you said, Matt, that that dread feels horrible. When you've got, if you've got a big one.

That you're really scared about the impact or you're really upset with what someone said or how they did or you know, that feels horrible. People can lose sleep over it. But then even the more mild ones, I did, I'm part of a, a group of professionals and I did something and someone on the, on the steering committee said that she was disappointed in me, she was disappointed as a friend in what I did and that felt lousy. I'm just like, oh, that sucks. And you know, I got to have a conversation about this. So I just want to say I know this is a real thing for people and so these four steps can really help. So my advice is.

I'll tell you what the four steps are quickly and we can go if you have an example in mind. I don't know if you guys have got a tough conversation you've been avoiding or and it even just might be an issue with someone that you don't like how they do something and you.

Well, I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example of one, the conversation that we have had. But I a huge amount of anxiety built up for it with me. We have a team member that we actually had to cut her hours back due to some cash flow reasons in our business. And when we went to cut her hours back I was just like shaking. I lost sleep the night before we had the Conversation. It wasn't even like we had to let somebody go. We were just cutting hours back. And it just. It just. The conversation terrified me, knowing that it was coming. And we've even had a conversation with her about it. She knew that I was, like, freaking out about having the conversation. But that's a great example. Yeah, that's one example that happened several months ago.

Okay, great. Let's use that. So the four steps, C, A, R, E stand for clarify the issue with yourself. That's where you fill in the worksheet. And then if you choose to continue and have it, you'll do the next three steps, which are ask permission and I've got a ninja formula. It's so deceptively powerful. Make it way easier for you to bring this up. And then R stands for reveal and request. You share what's going on for you, what the issue is, and you'll make a request if you have one. And then the E is so important. It stands for inquire. You don't want to have a tough monologue. You want to have tough conversation. So you want to check. How is it for you that I'm bringing this up? What are your ideas? Do you have a better idea than I do? I really want to hear anything you've got to say. So those are the four steps. Clarify, ask, reveal, and request, and then inquire. So, Matt, would you be willing to do a little demo with me? Do a little live demo using your example. All right, great. So what's a fake name for this person that you've got to cut the hours back?

Say Karen.

Karen. All right, great. So you'll fill in the worksheet. So I'm going to be Matt, you'll be Karen. But firstly, I fill in the worksheet as Matt, and I'll ask you some questions. Matt, to get some clarity on this, what would be your hope out of this conversation? How could it go?

Well, my hope out of the conversation would be that at the end of the conversation, everybody's in agreement that this is a good outcome for the business. And everybody, I guess.

Yeah. All right. Everyone's in agreement. I imagine you also hope that she's. That she might even feel good about the cutback and that it's a win for her.

Right? Yeah. All right.

This is important because the mind will often produce the fear and tell us what could go wrong, but it doesn't naturally go to generating a positive outcome. So let's create it. And then next question. What's your fear? How could this Go wrong.

I guess my. The funny thing is when you start thinking about the fears, the fears start to sound pretty irrational. But my fear with it would be that there would be like some sort of blow up and argument and fight and then it just escalates, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. So I would turn that around to what I'm worried the other person might do. And so I'm thinking, I'm afraid that they might feel upset or angry.

Yeah. Or take actions that could sabotage things in the business or things like that.

Yeah, right.

Do something to hurt the business. Okay, good. And then do you have a request and you may not, but do you have. Is there something you would ask this person they could do that would help everybody?

I mean, do you have an example of something that. That might look like I'm not well in this situation?

My request might be.

That you might be a question. It might be that you let me know how I could support you as you have this cutback. Yeah, that might be a request I would come up with.

Okay. Yeah, I like that.

Okay, good.

So that's.

I think that's good for the clarity. That's the step one. And then there's a box to check on the form that says, I am willing to accept these possible consequences.

So you're committing to yourself.

Yeah. And if you're not, well, then you know not to have the conversation.

Right.

I have risked prison. I have gone and tracked someone down from my past and said I did something that was wrong, it was illegal, and I did it. It was me, and I'm sorry. How can I make it right? If they wanted to prosecute, I could have gone to prison. So not everyone's willing to risk that. And it took me 10 years to come around to being willing to risk that. So if you're not willing to risk losing your partner or losing your job or whatever you think might happen, if you think is a big enough risk, maybe you don't have the conversation.

I also feel like when you're. When you start thinking through some of the fears, you know, that that was one of the things that Joe and I had a conversation with before having this other conversation was I was kind of working through some of my fears. And as I was working through them, I was realizing that a lot of them that were like the percentage likelihood that those fears would actually manifest were very, very low. Like they were like pretty irrational.

Yeah. That's interesting. So the ego can find the fears.

In my embarrassing story. I don't know if we'll get to it. But in my really embarrassing story, I had all sorts of fears. Like someone's going to complain to a tribunal, it's going to get in the press. Like my mind goes to the worst case scenarios.

The ego seems to skip the probability equation because I come from a risk management background. So you really, when you do the form, you, you're kind of subconsciously doing the math and going, all right, I guess these are my fears, I'm naming them. But really it's not that likely. So, okay, I'm willing to roll the dice on this.

It's almost like. And just really quick, it almost like your brain defaults with the ego. It's pure emotion, it seems like, but the critical thinking element, the, you know, like the actual like objective thinking, like, oh, is this really the thing that's going to spin this out of control? Is this really that and important or, or life or death?

Yes. So this form will counteract the, the tendency of the ego. The ego will seems to just bring up the worst case scenario and doesn't do the math. And the form will help you do the math and then also generate the positive scenario. And you'll see now in the next step how important that is. So shall we go to. So we're going to have the conversation. We've checked the box. We're going to have the conversation with Karen and here's the formula for ask permission. Okay, so. And so there's something I haven't been saying or I'm hesitant to bring up because. And you insert your fear. But I've decided I do want to bring it up because you insert your hope.

Do you have 10 minutes now?

Very simple, yet dense formula. It does so many things at once. So, so let's do it with Karen. Matt, you're going to be Karen over you. Hey, Karen, do you have. You have a few minutes now?

Sure.

To chat. Great. Thank you. There's something I've been really, really not wanting to bring up. Like I've been losing sleep over it because I don't think it's good news. And you know, I'm, I'm thinking maybe you'll find it upsetting and a surprise and I don't want that.

And you know, and maybe, maybe even you'll be so upset you might want to hurt me or the company that's like I blow it up into something that big. But I do want to bring it up because.

I really want us to be in agreement and I'm hoping this, there might be a way that it could be a win for you, maybe I'm reaching, but that's my hope. And so I do want to talk about it. And so I want to check again. Is now a good time? You have 10 minutes.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could totally see how that whole pre framing sort of disarms everything right from the beginning.

Yeah, a little bit here. I'm kind of reaching because it's really hard to see this as a positive outcome, but I'm trying to create positive intent. Okay. So the issue is.

We can't afford to keep paying you for this many hours.

And we need to cut you back to 50%. And I'm guessing that that could be a surprise. It could be hard financially and I want to check in. And now we're step jumping to step four.

Well, my request is that you tell me how I can help, if at all. Is there a way we can support you in making that transition? And now I want to check in. How is it for you to hear this? Is it a surprise? Did you know it was coming? Is it upsetting? I want to hear anything you've got to say.

I like that formula a lot.

Kieran wanted to say that. I'm just kidding.

Role playing.

Yeah.

I don't. I don't know how to respond. Is Karen.

Well, you. If you want, you can give me a hard time and. And. And do all the things that you're worried Karen might do.

Yeah. Well, this is ridiculous. I. How am I supposed to live off of this?

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. It's. I imagine that'd be really tough.

Yeah, it's definitely going to be.

Yeah.

I'm not very good at this role playing thing.

You're doing great. And I. And I want you to know I feel.

Sorry.

I feel bad. That may not help you. I know you can't. You can't eat that. But I do feel bad about it and it sucks. It absolutely sucks.

Yeah. Well, I guess it is what it is.

Yeah. Yeah. So I would just be with her, with her emotion. You know, that's. That's one of the keys to tough conversations. It's a pro tip. People are allowed to have their reactions and just give them space to have it and be with them as they go through it. And she'll get through it. She'll get over it, whatever. And then at some point, it might be. I'm curious, is there anything we can do to make the transition easier? I mean, I know paying you for full hours would make it easier, but we can't do that. Is there something that would make it a little easier. If you want, we could start from next week. You know, you can have another week at these full hours. So let's stop the role play there.

We did clarify, we did ask permission, we did reveal and a little bit of request and then we did inquire, how is this for you? And then just be with them. And that's it. That's the four steps.

I thought that was amazing just thinking from this side. I know, Matt, you were kind of analyzing as you were. You were kind of like bouncing back and forth, but I was trying to just analyze. And I really like the approach, David, of checking in with her constantly through. It's almost like with each step there's like a mini little check in the inquire can be.

Oh, wait, yeah, yeah, I had one. I coached one person who was worried about telling her husband that she doesn't like how impatient he is with the kids.

And I did the role play and as soon as I brought it up and said, you know, I want to talk to you when you, when you seem like you're impatient with the kids, I feel contracted and I feel upset. And before I go any further, I want to check, how is it for you that I'm even bringing this up? Because I could just sense that this was going to be a touchy subject and boy, did the other person have a lot to say. They're like, yeah, well, he's just a little monster and I'm blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I just switched into step four, the inquire mode. And I just listened. I said, yeah, I totally get that. Is there anything else you want to say before I keep going, Just gave it a chance and then finally they were done. I'm like, okay, great, totally get that. Could I continue now? Do you have some space to hear my side? So I totally switched because, yeah, a little checking in as you go through. How is this view?

Yeah, and that's what. Because through each, I feel like each of the four phases, there's like a layer you're uncovering with the other person you're chatting with through this conversation that might have been, you know, could have been avoided for a while now in both parties or maybe it's known on both sides or maybe even one side. But, you know, through that each layer, I feel like there are going to be more questions, more opportunities to hear what's in their brains. You can then really navigate this thing the smoothest possible. It's a great win win with those check ins. And I like how you can almost like bounce to inquire, you know, step four, but then, you know, resolve that and then go back to step two or three, you know.

Well, Joe, you. You said that so well. I think that what you're talking about is actually being relational. The way we tend to operate as humans is we're like billiard balls bouncing off each other. And I'm working out everything in my. In my clarity sheet and. And I'm going to say all my piece and then. All right, we're good by. But what you're talking about. And we, we talked about this maybe pre interview when I brought up a story on a podcast, and it seemed like, like the other person was pretty silent at the end of this embarrassing story. And I'm thinking.

How is it for them? Like, like, was they offended? Are they going to edit this out? And I could have checked in, you know, check in every way, you know, and now you're being relational. Here's a bit of piece of me. All right. Oh, this is what's happening for you now. This is what's happening for me. Hearing that. Oh, hearing you say that, I notice. I feel a bit defensive. That's authentic relating and it's a whole.

It's a whole industry. And I didn't discover that this relational piece until a year and a half ago of the constant back and forth and revealing as you go.

Yeah, yeah. Because it's a very fluid thing. Yeah. It's very simple to be like, here's my agenda. Steamroll ahead. This is what they're. This is, you know, I'm the boss or I'm the. Whatever put the label of yourself on.

I gotta get this out. I gotta get it all off my chest. And. Yeah, and that's fine. You can do that too. But you can set up the context ahead of time. You can say, it'll probably take me about three minutes to get it all out. Is that okay? Could you give me that space to see if I can get it out? And then I want to hear anything you've got to say. You can actually set that up so that you take turns.

But as you get better, you could check in as you go.

It's a bit more advanced.

Yeah. Can you remind folks. Well, to get the sheet. I actually was like kind of downloading this in real time, but if you go to playforreal Link Life, you can actually get the sheet that. That David's talking about and walk through this. And at the head of the episode, we did tell you where to get it as well, just wanted to remind.

Folks there, yeah, it'll say the four step tough conversation blueprint. Cannot miss it. And, you know, I did this on a podcast for school principals, and one of the school principals wrote in and said he was batting 4 for 4 by using the download. Just fill in the worksheet, Go and have the conversation. Nailed it. So it really does work. And you may not even see it as a conversation. You may just see it as, I got this problem with someone or I don't like someone. Well, fill in the worksheet. Just do the clarity. It'll take you like, three minutes. Yeah, yeah, it. Well, sometimes. Sometimes I have to really think longer. Like, what's my hope and what's my request? Because that's, you know, people are good at complaining, but when you say, well, what's your request? Oh, oh, I don't have a request. I just don't like what's happening. So this is a leadership move to fill in the damn form.

Yeah. And I feel like a lot of times when it comes to anxiety, at least I know within me when I get anxious. A lot of times I don't even know the root of the anxiety. I just know I'm feeling anxious. And I would imagine having a form like this in front of me and just kind of trying to work through it will probably help get to the root of what's actually causing it as well in some cases.

Yes. Yeah, that's so true. You know, I'm surprised by the fog. You know, it's the fog of tough conversation where I just, like a podcast host, didn't show up for a call that we had settled. And I'm like, all right, I'm not happy about that. But then he wrote and said, oh, I'm sorry, my mistake. I've used your booking link to adjust it to the next week. I'm like, wait, adjust it? That's not an adjustment.

That's a no show. That's half an hour of my life. I'm not going to get adjustment. And it took me half an hour to work out what was going on and why I was upset because I had this fog and I couldn't bring it up while I've got a fog because it's going to go badly. I'm going to be judging him. I'm going to be blaming him. And so I did the worksheet, and I'm like, oh, I feel disrespected. I feel like my time is not respected. And I came up with three requests. It took me half an hour. But my requests are that you let me know that you understand the impact of you not showing up. That's half an hour of my life I'm not going to get back because I was there. That you let me know that you do respect my time. If that's true for you, and it may not, but I'd like to hear it. And thirdly, that you commit to being on time for the next call. Those were the three things I came up with. And I had to use the worksheet to find a way to gently and respectfully and artfully bring it up with him. And I did. And he was so impressed that I would bring it up and bring it up so well. He asked if he could talk about it on his podcast. And then we did an interview just on this. So I really love.

Yeah. With this, David, it seems like what you were saying, even in yourself, you're using your own materials. And what this allows you to do is it gets out of the anxiousness, which could be partially your ego, and pure emotion without the, hey, actually, what are the things happening underneath all these emotions? Go back to the worksheet, work through it. And then you're immediately like, oh, okay, well, that anxiousness, which is really thinking forward, thinking of an outcome that even exist yet. Yeah. It's like, hey, hold on. Stop that for a second. Let's figure out with the. The. The tools we have in front of us, the. The pieces we can play with, and then figure out the next moves.

Yeah. Clarity feels good.

It's like, ah, yeah, it is.

Yeah.

No, I'm curious. So you. You've done a lot of these processes with. With actual prison inmates, too. I'm curious. How did. How did that come about? How did you get into doing this with inmates? And, you know, I'm imagining the conversations are very similar to the process you just mapped out with the inmates. But how did. How did that process come about? What kind of things are you working through with inmates?

Yeah, great question. It came about.

I heard about someone who was teaching dance in the prisons, and I thought, what wonderful work. And I wasn't doing much charity work, so I always felt guilty about that. When I see movies of people doing great things for the world, I feel so inspired. But then, what. What the hell am I doing for the world? So when I heard that someone was teaching authentic relating in prisons, I really. My ears perked up because I was really getting into authentic relating and starting to learn it. And I'm like, I can teach something I care about, and Go into a prison and see what that's like. And I've always had a fascination with losing freedom, you know, probably, you know, one of my big fears. So it was a chance to confront that. And I went in and assisted. And then the next one, they. They had me co. Lead it because I've done. I've got a lot of facilitation experience and I'm an improviser from way back. So you could just point me. Point me in the right direction and off I go. I'm happy to do it. So I've gone now into four prisons and we did one training for 20 staff from across prisons, and then we actually got in a room with 15 wardens. And that was extraordinary to be able to do a demo with them. So I love supporting this nonprofit. It's called authentic relating.org and they. They just. That director is incredible. She's just on a mission to help inmates learn the art of being human. And we all could use this. I'm still training in it myself, but the art of being human. So they can be more relational, just like you described, Joe. We teach them those skills so that they can use it with fellow inmates. One guy told a story of how someone came into his cell and started to pick a fight.

Yeah.

And wanted to fight. And he used the authentic relating practices. And they ended up shaking hands at the end instead of fighting.

That's cool.

So they can use it with inmates, with the COs, the correctional officers, and to speak their truth, and have tough conversations. And when they. With their family, a lot of their family are pissed at them for what they did and what they screwed up. And they have a lot of tough conversations to have with their family that maybe aren't treating them well or they haven't treated them well. And then when they get on the outside, they've got to deal with prison interviews. Sorry, job interviews, not prison interviews. You don't normally interview to get into prison.

Job interviews. And they need to be relational and deal with issues with their boss or a coworker's pissing them off. They need authentic relating practices for that so that they don't blow up because they kind of. You can't. Can't afford to. You've already got a strike against you. Just being an ex con, you. You. You can't afford to even maybe have the. The freedoms that some other people would where they could maybe blow up at someone. So we're doing a lot of great work with them. Or Lori Lazar, the director, is doing great work and I'm, I'm pleased. I get to play and I get to support going into a maximum security prison and hearing that door slam every time behind you as you get to a new area. And then you've got to get the attention of a guard behind glass to go through almost like an airlock to get to another area where I can go to a bathroom.

Is really extraordinary.

That is my worst nightmare. But. But not your work. Of course. But going into a prison, part of it. Yeah.

And then we lose some freedoms. Like we'll be on lockdown. Boom. Prison's on lockdown because a tool's gone missing and now no one's moving anywhere. We might be there for three hours.

Can't go to the car, can't go out. Can't go somewhere to lay down and rest. It's. We'll even show up to a prison and we can't get in. Sorry, we're on lockdown. Just have lunch. We can't tell you when. Three out, two, three hours later. Okay. We can come in and do two hours of training. And we've driven four hours to do a two day training. So it's a fascinating world.

Well, I think, yeah, what you're doing is awesome. And I like how we have like, you know, we had a business example here with, with, I won't say simple, but really at the end of the day it's just, you know, it's a conversation and there's ways to work through that pretty quickly. And then you have the other side. Here's life or death in a prison where guys can fight and potentially kill themselves or each other. And it's the same process. And I just love this. I know a lot of folks right now are locked in their houses with their family. There's a lot of, unfortunately, there's abuse happening, you know, child abuse, you know, just between spousal, there's divorces that could potentially happen. Economic impacts. I mean, now more than ever, I could see this being a tool that people can really apply and kind of ingrain in themselves, but also fall back on if they ever need that logical side and not get wrapped up in emotion.

Yeah, I want people to speak the truth 30% more because again, we want to counteract the ego. The ego is going to want to hide stuff. And I was taught, just don't make waves, don't rock the boat. Women in particular apparently are taught not to speak up. And I want to counteract that. So let's speak our truth 30% more and be ourselves in the world. And let the universe adapt around us to that. And this worksheet can help you do that. And you don't have to take on the big ones. Some people might. You take the biggest one and then everything else is going to seem easier. But you can do the little ones. You don't like someone smoking around you or it bugs you how your partner does this and they're just not willing to change something, whatever it is. Practice with the little ones. You can work your way up.

That's smart. Yeah. Baby steps. Don't jump into a tough conversation that maybe has led to.

You don't have to risk prison or losing a relationship right up front. It's okay. You don't have to have any of these conversations. I'm just saying now that you've got a model and a worksheet that's kind of got your back in this, then you might want to do a truth audit. Start writing down the people in your life that you just don't feel great about or there's just something in between you, anything going on. Then write the issue next to them. You don't have to have those conversations, but you might find you circle a couple of them and say, all right, let's try out this four step process and see how I do.

You become the leader that you would follow.

I like that. I read that from some of your work somewhere and I like that. Let's maybe end on that point is become the leader that you would follow. That's super powerful.

So you've got, you've got a book called Get Paid for who you are.

Are there any books that you reference yourself or refer to people quite often or anything like that? Maybe around some of the topics we've talked about?

Well, I point people to.

I point people to my podcast for tough conversations.

But what's the name of your podcast?

Tough Conversations with David Wood.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, I'm a huge fan. One of the things that altered my life was finding Byron Katie and she has something called the work, which is a very simple four question process for any thought that's causing pain. And it went beyond that. I used to believe before Katie and I didn't even realize I had this belief that my circumstances were what would give me my happiness or my upset. So if I lose my job, that's what's causing my upset. Through the work of Byron Katie and her book Loving what is is an introduction to that work, I have come to believe that the worst thing that can happen to a person is a.

Thought.

That is the Worst thing that can happen to you is a thought. And.

The book didn't do it. For me, the book was an intro, but working with a Byron Katie coach to identify the thoughts that were hurting me and then bust them open. And I had resistance. I was pretty open minded. But no, the brain and the ego are entrenched. So this work helps open the mind to. That helped. And then I went and did the nine day school for the work. And that was profound. I felt like I was high, like an altered state of consciousness. And so I'm a big fan. And there's one book loving what is is a good introduction to her work.

Thank you. Yeah, we'll link that up. And the whole thing of being stuck in thought. Yeah, that can completely paralyze someone.

It's the only thing that can hurt you. Yeah, the only thing is a thought. And so. And I don't actually believe anymore that any thought is true. I mean, you know, that this is a coffee cup or that I'm a good person or that you're, you're, you're a human being. Even there, I've gotten a little bit beyond that. Anything is actually true. So why suffer? You know, she left me.

Really.

She left me. Let's break it down, you know, do the work. And I come out with, well, she's still talking to me. I've still got access to a conversation if I want. And she's still on the planet. Did she leave? Did she leave permanently? Did she just leave to go out the door? Like, what's this whole concept of left? She left me. Wait a minute. I'm the one who's cut off communication with her after she broke up? Who left who? Oh, wait, I left her. And then dig in a little further. I've left me. I'm not consoling me. I'm not talking to myself. I'm not telling myself nice things. I'm not giving myself a bubble bath. I'm not hugging myself. I left me. I tell you what, it's a doorway to enlightenment. Her work.

I love that. Yeah, super impactful. I know we got to get you off here, so everybody go check out playforreal life. Check out theauthenticrelating.org, check out David's book, get paid for who you are. And thanks so much for spending the time with us, David. Really appreciate it.

My pleasure. And I would like to extend an invite, if I may, to your audience. If something resonated for you here and you're like, yeah, I want to improve my leadership skills. I want to work on life. Life and business at the same time. Being better. And you identify as a high performer. Then click on the Request a session button on my website. And I don't charge for those sessions if you qualify for a discovery session because it's how I find the right people to work with long term. So that would be a great way to follow up, too.

Perfect. Yeah, we'll link it all up. Appreciate your time, man. This has been. It's gonna leave an impact for me for sure. And hopefully everyone else listening.

Awesome. Thanks, guys. Pleasure to meet you both.

Great meeting you and have a great one.

Thanks so much for tuning into that episode. I hope you dug it. I know Joe and I dug it. I actually kicked Joe out of the room. He's not here right now. Because I wanted to tell you about a tool that I really, really dig. We use it in our business. We recommend it all the time. It's called Easy Webinar, and it's a tool that lets you do live webinars, automated webinars, hybrid webinars, and, you know, pretty much any other kind of webinar, if there are other kinds of webinars. But anyway, this tool is kind of like your all in one, do it all tool for anything webinar related. It's easy Webinar. It's put out by a dude named Casey Zman. He's been on the podcast. If you haven't listened to that episode, it's a killer episode. He's a really smart dude, but his software is amazing. It does everything. It's, you know, the title tells you exactly what it does. It's an easy webinar platform. And we use this in our business to run automated webinars all the time. We don't do a lot of live webinars these days. We like to do the kind of automated webinars where somebody can register and then it, you know, they can either watch it like 15 minutes later or they can watch it the next day, but it's just kind of always running. And it's a system that helps us make autopilot sales off of our webinars. Super cool tool. If you haven't tried it yet, you know, it's, it's, it's an amazing tool. And Casey is actually hooking you up. He said for listeners of Hustle and Flowchart, I can't believe he's doing this, but he said for listeners of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, he's giving 25% off of the membership to use Easy Webinar. It's already super, super inexpensive for what it does and all the cool features it has. But he's hooking you up with 25% off. Because you're a listener of Hustle and flowchart. Go to easy webinar.com/hustle. That's where you can get that 25% off discount. That's easy Webinar.

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