Dean Holland - How To Make Affiliate Marketing A Main Income Source

I think a good way of looking at it, I always think, is, like, your customers are not just your customers. And I say that it might sound a bit silly to say that out loud, but I think that's, in a way, one of the mindsets I got myself into in the past was thinking like, no, these are my customers. They're mine. I'm not sending them elsewhere. But the reality, they're already elsewhere. They're already buying these things. And I've just kind of come around to the viewpoint that if there is, say, a complimentary software or something that I know can help my customers, if it's something that they actually need, which it should be, they might already be looking for that thing. And if, you know, why shouldn't. Why can't I be the one to provide that solution, you know? And everybody wins.

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Flowchart with your boy, my.

Boy, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Hey, welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast.

Is this thing on?

Nope. I turned yours off, I think. I mean, I have this theory that people only tune in for me, so I just turned off your mic now. So this whole interview is just me and Dean.

This is dangerous. If you ever edit our podcast episodes, you're just gonna totally cut this track.

Yeah, well, little do you know, I cut out your stuff all the time.

I haven't listened to the show in a while.

I know.

Damn it.

I'm surprised you haven't said anything about how much of you I cut out. This was your trick.

This was your trick to see if I was listening to my own show or not.

It was. That was my master plan.

Oh, man, you got me. All right, well, now I know. Shouldn't have told me you really wanted to get rid of me. But that's poor execution, Matt.

Poor execution.

Well, today we are talking to another podcaster, but also a long not lost, because he's found again. Buddy of ours.

Is estranged the right word?

Yeah, I don't know. We could use estranged. I don't know.

That just feels our estranged Internet marketing guy.

We just haven't spoken to our friend in a very long time. Yeah, like, definitely have not seen him in a long time, but definitely have not even exchanged written words with him. In this digital age where we don't have to send a pigeon and a letter all the way to the UK to go to Dean Holland.

Yes, today we're talking to Dean Holland. We go way, way back. One of the first coaching programs we ever went through online he was also in. It was with Alex Jeffries.

Did we ever call him Dino?

Dino? I don't know. Maybe.

I don't know. It's just coming up in my head now.

We didn't on this episode, I don't think.

No, I know we did. Not here, but. Yeah, I don't know.

But, you know, he's big into info products and affiliate marketing. And this episode specifically, we hone in on affiliate marketing because, you know, we've talked about it a lot. Affiliate marketing is a big chunk of what we do in our business. He's got a book about affiliate marketing called the Iceberg Effect. And we actually set up an affiliate link over@hustleinflowchart.com iceberg he's giving that book away for free. So it's an affiliate link, but it's a free book. Just pay shipping.

Yeah. If you like anything from this conversation, definitely go get the Iceberg Effect.

It's cool.

It gives you. Actually, Matt lined out one of the things in the episode. I won't spoil it for you now. That nice kind of templated thing that you could follow along with. But so, yeah. Hustleandflowchart.com iceberg and so you can get that book. But Dean's just awesome, man. Cause we all started around the same time. You'll hear the story. We won't need to get into it now. And it's just really cool. We go through the evolution. We've all had our evolutions. But at the end of the day, he's got a really solid affiliate system, but also system to sell his own stuff. He's helping a ton of people start online. Excel online, you know, and right now there's a lot of people doing that. So I think this is a good, timely talk.

This will be one of those episodes where when somebody comes to us and says, hey, I want to get into affiliate marketing, where should I start? We're going to tell them to start with this episode. So cool.

Well, yeah, Dean's awesome. You're going to like him. You're going to like his book. And we also have notes. We're always taking the notes. So get the notes. Might as well. They're free for two weeks. At the time of this recording dropping. That's the episode dropping.

It just exploded.

Apparently it's kind of intact. Yeah, barely. Shoestrings tightening up around. Hold it in place. So, yeah, if you can hear us, the podcast is still intact. So you should get the notes. And the notes are definitely intact. As long as you're there in two weeks. By the time this episode drops. Hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m p hustleandflowchart.com comp or you can text the number 38470 and the word comp to also get those notes.

It's good to be in the same place again for recording these podcasts because Joe can actually look at the sticky note on my desk. I remember actually has the 38470 comp on it.

I did read it, but from a remote podcast. I was forced to strain my brain and remember this really tough shortcode that we chose, which I don't expect anyone else to Remember. But it's 381470 and it's Fugz Plus Fugs Plus. That's true if you are the type that likes to dial via text or the number text.

You're just confusing people now.

I know. And I really hate our shortcut. But hey, some people love it. So 38470 conf get the notes. That's all I'm trying to say. Okay.

And also, this show is sponsored by our favorite SEO tool.

Yes, it's the only SEO tool that we use as well. We've used a lot of. But this one definitely have used the longest more than the other ones. The other ones are just kind of like, eh, that was cool. It kind of left me hanging. Yeah, that sucked. Oh, that's a free one. Hey, let's go get it from this website. It's lifetime. Yeah, that sucked. Yeah, that's not ahrefs.

No, we're using ahrefs. And we've been using Ahrefs for years, long before they were ever a sponsor of the show. We love ahrefs. We. We use it for all sorts of things. If you go back through our episodes, it's almost like there's a mini training course in our intro.

Someone told us that recently.

Yeah, like somebody said we should go and compile all of intros where we talk about the different ways we use ahrefs. By now we probably have like a whole hour long podcast episode of the various ways that we've used ahrefs in our business.

Yeah.

So maybe we'll do that at some point.

We should. I mean, there's. There's just so many cool things and I'm. I'm actually blanking on a specific. I'm trying to like come up with things that we haven't said yet, but we don't honestly have a list. We just come up with stuff on the fly. Yeah. But I will say, if you're just looking for just great traffic help, you know, and I always like to say it's like the cheat code because it does really feel like cheating. Because most people, the people out there that you are, quote unquote, competing with on Google and whatever in the ranks, like, they're not likely using these tools. Obviously some are and that's cool. And if they are, great. But like, we're talking to Mark Joyner recently on the podcast and he was talking about like the long tail. You know, there's a lot of this in long tail keywords. Like that's, those are usually the ones that bring the most relevant customers to you and subscribers, people that buy affiliate products in our case and stuff like that. So it's a great tool to figure out the long tail. And not a lot of people are thinking that way. They're going after very popular keywords, but are also competitive for sure.

And if you're on the fence, it's going to cost you seven bucks for seven days. You can get in there a buck a day for seven days. Over@ahrefs.com you got to go use it. We use it. If you want to know, if you want to have some of the similar SEO success to what we've been seeing, Ahrefs is kind of our secret weapon.

So it's our number 1 traffic source SEO.

It's 100% true. So go check it out. Let's go talk to Dino Holland.

Boom. Dean, how you doing, my man? We're live.

I am good.

Yeah. Dude, it's been so long since we, it has been.

I can't believe that I was, you know, when we had this scheduled, I was trying to figure back when exactly it was. I think it has to be a decade. I think we've, we've got a 10 year gap since this last conversation happened.

That is crazy because I think you're, you're spot on with that too. And what's wild is for the audience, we basically said pre recording, we're like, you know what, let's just record this thing. I think it's going to be interesting. And you know, this is literally us catching up and chatting about the cool stuff we've been doing in the meantime.

We'll probably do it. I mean, this might, this might actually be your first 10 hour episode.

No kidding, man. Well, I know every time, like we've always. 10 years ago. I mean, like we're in completely different places and we can get into that, but it's always been a great time chat with you, you know, and hanging out with that whole crew that we. We had back then and still have to a lot of degree. Like, Alex Jeffries is out in San Diego now, so, you know, we see him quite a bit.

Right? Yeah. I get the impression. I get the impression we're all doing. Doing awesome things and we all drink a little less than we maybe used.

I think you're right.

The overall impression I seem to get as I catch up.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm pretty sure the last time we all hung out was in Vegas. And I don't think we need to get into too many details about what happened in Vegas, but drinks were involved in.

And not a lot of sleep, right?

Indeed. Indeed. Yes. Yeah. Those are memories that sometimes I don't like to think of, but other times I do. There's pros and cons to that coming up.

I'm just like, why were. It's like. Yeah, it's like the old days of going to these seminars. I remember Matt and I, because we flew around the US a lot just like that. How we kind of made a name or grew our network. And it was like, why did we drink so much? That just hurt. It just really hurt. It was expensive, probably, and we didn't have the cash at the time.

I think it was either 2010 or 2011 that year. I did the math and I was away from my house for three months out of the year. That's how many conferences we went to.

Oh, my gosh. So that's basically. You spent three months in bars in that year.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, really? Come on. When we go to the conferences, it's partially to learn, but partially to go party with our buddies. So at least then it was. Now our motives are definitely a little bit different.

Indeed. Indeed. How times change. But I'm glad of it. In all honesty. I like the progress.

Oh, my God, I feel amazing. I love this. I mean, hey, I'm not gonna poo poo that life at all, but, you know, I think we're. We've evolved into better things. But I want to. I want to hear. Well, for one, there's probably stuff in your story that we don't even know about.

Yeah, well, so we all. We all met through Alex Jeffries coaching. It was marketing with. With you or marketing with Alex? I don't remember. It was one of those. Marketing with Alex or marketing with you?

I don't remember.

Which was his, like, brand that he sold and which was his brand that was like his blog and stuff. But it was through the Alex coaching that we all got to know each other and we all sort of went down this path of. Of kind of info products and affiliate marketing and doing that sort of stuff. But there's definitely a giant gap for us between, you know, and not from the drinking, from just, you know, the lack of keeping up with each other.

Probably lost some brain cells there. But that's fine.

There's a little gap for us about. About your storyline from, you know, the last time we hung out around 2009, 2010ish and now. So let's get up to speed with what you've been up to.

Yeah, gosh. So just as you've just said, so we got sort of set on a similar sort of path, didn't we? From the very beginning we learned from a guy that by all accounts was generating a lot of his income through affiliate marketing. And so we learned that model and from there for me it was affiliate marketing that actually enabled me to quit my day job for the first time. So that happened in 2009 and like you say, that's where we probably were seeing each other within that next year or year and a half.

And the way that my business sort of began to transition, I've always continued to have an affiliate marketing side to my business and income always and probably always will. But where I transitioned was more into starting to create my own info products. So I started to teach just really from the beginning the things that I was learning. So you guys might remember I was quite active with a blog. So I was posting on my blog and just really sharing the things I was learning and that just had a natural progression then into as I learned how to use a blog to generate commissions, it enabled me to create a bit of an info product on how I was doing that.

Over a few years. That just continued to the point where eventually that got from having these sub hundred dollar info products and courses through to then going on to have these more premium priced high ticket coachings and beginning to grow my team and where I there was a massive transition a few years back that I think is probably quite key. Just to. Just to bring up. It's quite a big part of kind of how I've got to this piece of where we are today. A lot of my income back in the day because I started out as an affiliate, it was like my affiliate network that were now selling my products for me and promoting my stuff. And unfortunately I went through these few experiences where I had a few product launches that just didn't go anywhere. People that said they would promote, didn't promote and they just really went terribly wrong. And that happened twice and both times I put in a good three months, if not more leading up to these things. And it was like other than my affiliate promotions, this was the main thing I was then, now focused on. And it really hit me quite hard throughout a whole year not really having any successful launches. And I kind of became a little bit disillusioned with the whole product launch business model.

Sure.

Which at the time I was absolutely gutted with because I thought that was everything to me at that stage. Being able to do these big launches and get 1,000 or more customers in a week, I thought it was incredible.

Well, wasn't that the time when Frank Kern was launching all his stuff or all these. They were doing the three day, four day launches and just going big $2,000 products and stuff.

Exactly, yeah. So obviously it's awesome we can have those conversations. Not a lot of people, a lot of the people these days that maybe just been around the last few years, they won't remember those days. Right. You don't even see that anymore. It's crazy when you raise stuff like that. It's like, wow. There's a lot of different things happened in the industry, a lot of phases. But the great thing that came out of this. So there was like a bit of a bad period in that space since we last met. But what it did do, I decided I wanted to build a business where I could be controlling of the traffic, responsible for my own outcome. With the affiliate marketing side, I got to a point where I felt that was relatively easy as long as I continued to make sure the things I was offering my audience were high value and always with their best interests in heart. That side of my business has always been great, but this side of other people selling and promoting my stuff just wasn't for me long term. And so I've really spent the last. Oh gosh, I bet it's been four years now, I think maybe four or five years where I've really turned my hand to just promoting my own stuff. Having paid ads, running and having offers such as a book and generating customers through that and really not relying on affiliates in my business as such anymore. So it's been this massive shift from 100% affiliate to then having this mix of I do affiliate marketing myself and then I sell my own products for myself. So sure. Well, that's kind of brings us to today.

Yeah, No, I think it's a cool transformation. I Like that you. Yeah, I think a lot of people have gone through that same flow, like, you know, within our network we were chatting about, like, on this podcast, a lot of folks will realize sometimes, like, wait, hold on. I have more control if I do paid traffic and other content marketing means. And, you know, it's actually probably cheaper than affiliate traffic anyway, since you're typically paying out 50% a sale. You know, it's like if you could dial in a funnel and get cheap traffic or free traffic with SEO. Like, yeah, it's pretty good.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. So that led to. I mean, and then you're still doing affiliate marketing, though, from what it sounds like. On what, the back end of everything, of course.

Yeah, definitely. Because I think one of the things that we've seen. We're quite clear on our numbers now. And one of the things is, it's about. We're about, let's just call it, 85% of the customers we generate through our advertising don't continue to express interest in further stuff that we have for whatever that reason. So it really works out that about 85% of our audience, we're able to market other people's stuff, too.

Yeah, see, that's. I think that's a big point right there that a lot of folks don't think about with affiliate marketing because we've been. We've been on this kind of, like, trend lately, talking about different ways to add affiliate marketing to your business. And, you know, a lot of folks will just kind of discount it because it's like, oh, that's not my business model. It's like, wait, hold on. It's actually, like, perfect for any business out there because you're not gonna make every solution for your customers.

Like, yeah, exactly. And it's interesting, actually, because I'll be honest, I. A couple of years ago, because I almost had that disillusion with. I don't want people promoting for me and relying on people. There was a period in time where I actually had this. It was actually now, in hindsight, wonderful thing. A stupid outlook. It was ridiculous. But I had this thing where I said, well, no, I'm not going to promote anyone's stuff. I'm only selling my own stuff. And I stopped. I used to think like, no. And I just went into this shell. There was this brief period in time where I was like, no, I'm just in my own bubble. Everybody leave me alone.

And you know what? Like, it was such a silly decision because it's become especially evident to me that when you're paying for your traffic through, like, say, Facebook ads or whatever that thing is when you really unders, when you really see, like, those numbers and you realize that the majority of the customers or leads that you generate won't actually buy anything else from you, from your products.

Right.

You know, it's like, well, you're silly not to recommend other people's stuff to find those solutions, because if they're not responding to you, then you've paid for them. So you've got to make the maximum return on investment for your business. So that's now become the winning sort of formula for us. It's like generate customers and leads, offer our stuff, put them through what we do, and out the other side for this 85% or so people that don't respond, let's now see what they will respond to. And that's through the affiliate marketing side.

Yeah. And it sounds like you've also opened up your products for affiliates to promote as well. Right, so.

Correct. Yes.

You know, and I think there's a big realization too, in that if you do a lot of paid traffic, then affiliate marketing can actually be an amplifier for your paid traffic. Because if you do, if you have affiliates pushing traffic, that's a great way to build a retargeting list that you can then, you know, put your ads in front of and further follow up with all the people that the. The affiliates drove to you. So it all just plays together so nicely. If you have this. This view of, you know, have some of my own products, but also promote affiliate products, and there are complimentary things out there that if they buy my product, they'd probably also want this product, but I don't want to go make that product. So, you know, it's all very complimentary if you're playing it right.

Definitely. And I think a good way of looking at it, I always think, is like, your customers are not just your customers, you know, And I say that it might sound a bit silly to say that out loud, but I think that's in a way, one of the. One of the mindsets I got myself into in the past was thinking like, no, these are my customers, they're mine. No, I'm not sending them elsewhere. But the reality, they're already elsewhere. They're already buying these things. I've just come around to the viewpoint that if there is, say, a complementary software or something that I know can help my customers, if it's something that they actually need, which it should be, they might already be looking for that thing. And why can't I be the one to provide that solution and everybody wins?

Yeah. No, I think it's great, man. I mean, that's. I just think that's the mentality you should have is, you know, you're, you're. I think a lot of folks, like, probably get a little shy of the marketing of other people's stuff too, because they get worried that they're sending their customers away from them, you know, like away from your core products. But it's like, at the end of the day, I've said this before, it's like people remember the connector. People, like, trust. The reason they go and buy from, you know, this other person you're recommending is because they trust you. And as long as you're promoting good things that are relevant and high quality and actually beneficial, then they're going to come back and buy even more stuff from you. To be like, hey, Dean, what was that other thing that you talked about somewhere before? Like, do you have a link for that? Or, you know, like, we get that all the time and it's really, really interesting.

Well, I'll tell you something interesting as well. Like, when we now we promote other people's offers, we've actually seen an increase in response on our own stuff.

Isn't that interesting as well? Like, we actually sell more of our own products because we promote since we've been promoting other people's stuff. And the reason that I've. I think that through is based on exactly what you've just said is like, if you recommend something, even if it's not your own, and that thing has a positive impact on that person, who are they going to credit with that. That feeling? Who are they going to credit with this benefit that they've just received? You know, if I were to tell you guys about our local restaurant near where you live that I just dined at, and it's amazing, and you went there for the first time and had a great meal, you're going to thank me, right?

Yep, of course.

So it's no different. The way I view it with affiliate marketing is make sure you're promoting good stuff and people will love you for it anyway.

Yeah, no, that's really cool, man. And that's. I think that's what's really interesting. So, Matt, did you have any. Because I kind of want to go deeper on, like, your style of affiliate market, like what you teach others in terms of, you know, compared to, you know, traditional affiliate marketing, you know, where it's just, yeah, buy, buy, buy this thing. And then you Know, because right now we're living in a world, there's so many freaking products, everything's speeding up, you know, compared to like when we started just 10, you know, over 10 years ago. But the last time we hung out, like there were not nearly the amount of software tools, there were a lot of info products. But like now I feel like there's just so much everything of everything. So how would you train folks to do affiliate marketing nowadays compared to say back when we were all starting?

Yeah, good question. So I think one of the things that you guys will know from like 10 years ago, people laugh at me today that maybe have only been in the industry a year or two when I say I used to pay 77 or $97 for an ebook. Do you remember those days? Because there wasn't software, right? So the highest value thing was like ebooks and video courses. That was it. And I think if I remember right, the video courses were the upsells to the ebook.

It was always like, right, you've got.

The ebook, here's the video course for another fee.

So like one of the big things that shifted with affiliate marketing over the years, as I see it, I mean, let's imagine people pay a 50% commission.

The biggest shift that I see in the industry over the last 10 years is that, you know, the product prices of a lot of the entry level products that you see launching into the industry, the softwares and even the info products, that entry level price is a third or a tenth in some cases of what it was five, ten years ago. And I know now people have the back end stuff, but a lot of times with a lot of affiliate programs, you know, we're only paid commissions on maybe that front end product and the, whatever the two or three upsells, whatever that might be, and that's generally where it stops. And what I personally believe the problem with that is especially, well, definitely for newcomers to affiliate marketing, if they're starting out with no list and they don't sell their own products, so they're starting from a blank canvas with nothing. If they've got to go out and get traffic and you're only earning a $5 to $10 commission on a $20 product, say. And then there's a couple of upsells. Unfortunately, like as I Compare back to five, 10 years ago, the return on the, you know, the effort of getting traffic to offers is not as profitable as it used to be.

Now for I look at, say, people like you and I, you know, we have an audience now. We've been at this game a long time. We've built our audiences, whether it's our lists, our podcast listeners, wherever that might be, we have those audiences. And it does become, admittedly, we can all say, infinitely easier to sell affiliate products when you have people to tell about them straight away. Right?

Definitely. Yep.

But if you look at the newcomer, because this is who we work with a lot, it's like somebody that's maybe been trying for 612 months, potentially years, and they're not yet seeing results, and they don't have anything, they don't have a list, and they really feel like they're at a complete disadvantage. A lot of customers, when they first come to us. And so, like, where we focus on helping people, they do, of course, have to drive traffic. And as we. As we've already been talking about, there are free and paid ways of doing that. So let's imagine somebody starts, and they're going to start paying for ads and building their list and building an audience. The cost of that is higher than it was five, 10 years ago. And as I've just been pointing out, I think we can agree the commissions are lower on a lot of promotions. So I personally feel it's created this quite a bit. Bit of a more difficult situation. I don't know if I'm. Don't know if I'm making sense as I'm trying to explain this.

Yeah, you are these to me.

And so I just see that we're in this sort of phase or this situation with affiliate marketing as it is today, that unfortunately a lot of commissions are lower than they were and the cost to get traffic is higher than it was. And so you have this, like, bit of a bad situation around. And so my entire focus in helping people and what my entire approach really is is that you have to be quite selective over the things you promote. Not just in a sense of, obviously what you promote has to be quality and all that kind of stuff that should be a given. But taking into account what the potential return is on that product as well. There is no way, at least my opinion today, that somebody could start out from scratch doing things like Facebook ads or YouTube, only to try and get a $10, $20 commission. There has to be something more to it than that. It has to be a more profitable product or a bigger commission, or there has to be additional commissions that are possible from that promotion. Do you know what I mean?

Absolutely.

100% on the industry now. It's like, it's just. It's a bit more difficult and People have to really think about the things they promote in that sense for the return.

Yeah. Well, just if you were just going to go buy paid traffic to an affiliate offer and you're not focused on building a list so that you can follow up with any of the people that you just drove paid traffic to, then if you're not roiing those, those clicks are gone forever. Right. You sent them to somebody else's link and they didn't buy, so you didn't make any commissions and you have no way of following up with that person who just clicked. So if you don't have some sort of mechanism in place to, if they don't buy, continue to follow up with them, then you're probably going to be hurting.

Right, exactly. Exactly. And I think that's where things are really at. People with affiliate marketing now. Like, no matter, even if you are starting from scratch, you've really got to be very fixated on producing that positive return with your audience. It sounds so obvious to say, but I just see so many people that are just, they're putting the money in and they just feel so lost as to why it's not happening for them.

Yeah.

And I think this is, this is what people have to realize is like you've just said you've got to build that list, build that audience, and then you've really got to be consistent and promote the right things to make that profitable. I think that that is obviously the holy grail. People just have to crack that piece. And yeah, I think that's, that's where people are stuck.

I mean, we run a lot of Google Ads. Google search ads are our sort of paid traffic, bread and butter. And we actually do promote a lot of affiliate products. We do it in sort of a unique way. But we're constantly watching the competition. Right. We're watching who else is promoting the same products who are targeting the same keywords as we are. And it's just, it's comical to us how many people we see pop up. They're running their ads for three or four days straight to an affiliate link and then they're gone and we're the number one search results again. And then somebody else will pop up, be running an ad for three or four days and then they'll be running it straight to an affiliate link and they'll be there and then they'll be gone after three or four days and we're the top search result again.

We laugh because we, when we see those ads, we're like, let's see how long this is gonna last.

Yeah.

But basically what it is is it's people trying to buy traffic straight to an affiliate link with no fricking system or mechanism or reason why. They just think traffic to affiliate offer means money, but that's not how it works.

Yeah, I think, like the unfortunate thing is a lot of people, and I used to be there, so I understand it. As crazy as it is, I do understand it because it was me as well. People just want the quick answer. They just want to go from nothing to having everything. I see it all the time when people apply for our stuff. It's the magic figure. What would be your goal? 10,000amonth. It's always 10,000amonth. I don't know why and where that is like a very 10,000amonth from.

You're right.

And so I think people are just trying to make that shortcut. It really is that equivalent of, oh, I'm going to throw up an ad straight to an affiliate offer and cash in quick. And that used to work. And I'm sure there are instances, somewhere, somehow, somebody would pop up and say, I do that all day long. I crush it. Doing this. That's great for that person. That doesn't happen for the masses.

I really personally believe that it has to be played as a longer game now. Like, I don't think this is like, it's no longer affiliate marketing or any online business. It's no longer a quick thing of just throw up this thing, send a bit of traffic, boom, you've got a business. I think you've got to be learning those key skills and you've got to build the foundations of a business that can be there for many years. I mean, look at those guys having this conversation now. There's not that many people that could say, I remember when we first got started together 10, 11 years ago, here we are now, like, still having an amazing time. Not that many people that are saying that. Right?

It's very true, man. It's. And we're very fortunate for being able to say that. It's wild because, I mean, 100%, you're right. Like, we've been in that. We still, like, it's. I think it's just human nature. It's like we want it now, especially as entrepreneurs, you know, and. Or even people starting entrepreneurship or maybe even right now there's a lot of new people starting businesses online that might have gotten laid off or lost their job or just whatever, supplemental income. And yeah, we just want it now. And it's so hard to Combat that. But it's right. And I think.

And you know, the big shame in it is chasing it for the now, we actually spend longer to get it.

True. Yeah.

That's like if you just had the outlook from the beginning, it's such a shame. And I did the same. It took me four years to make one commission.

Yeah.

But then, like, from there, it just went insane. It's just like, if people could rid themselves of that desire immediately to want it all now and just accept. Right. This can take six to 12 months to really see something solid happening. But six to 12 months down the line, you now have something that can consistently grow. Instead of trying to get it today and it taking four years to make it happen today.

Well, funny, our little story here actually, around the timeline, I think it was 2008 maybe, is when Matt and I were doing affiliate marketing for the very first time. And we had these CPA offers that we wanted to promote. And I think it was like a Gatorade offer. It was like something from, I don't know, like, shareasale.com or something.

Yeah, it was. It was a CPA thing where, like, if. If, like, they were paying, you know, $2 per email address that you got.

Yeah. You know, and I think for this specific packet I'm thinking of, it was like, we get 30 bucks if someone were to just enter in their, you know, their address to get a free sample. And this was our. And Matt and I, I don't know what we were doing to market. I forget. But point of the being is like, we were, like, so distraught and pissed off because we weren't making any. We're like, this should be so easy. It's not even paying any money. Like, what the hell? And then, like, I was at the day job, I was working, and then I checked my stats because, let's be honest, I was doing Internet marketing like, half the time at the day job, and I was like, holy shit, we made money. And I think I texted Matt, and I was just like, I remember who.

Our first customer was, too.

Well, that's what I'm getting at. And then I texted my wife, and she's a horrible liar. And I think I called her up because I was so, like, excited. And then she was like, that was me.

Joe's wife was our first affiliate marketing customer.

I felt so good. But then she's like, I'm sorry.

Damn it, that's awesome.

Well, you still remember it, right?

Oh, yeah.

It's worth the memory.

At least at that point. Point we knew that it was, like, legit. Right. We knew that if we actually got somebody to enter their address, we actually would get money off of it. So there was like, there was. There was some element of it of like, okay, something just clicked in our minds that, like, real money is moving with this stuff.

I think that's a good lesson, actually. Yes. And I got to eat the product, too, because it was delivered to his house.

That's awesome.

Obviously, don't do that, kids.

Pretty sure that's.

I think there's a very good point in what you just said. Like, you did get the validation from that.

Yes.

I think that's the moral, probably the key. I bet that helped no end.

Yeah, and it helped. It definitely gave us the motivation that this is possible and that we probably got a market in a different way because we definitely were not doing it effectively.

Well, I know it's, like, super cliche by this point now, but, like, you know, they always say, like, that you always remember that first dollar that you make online. And it's. It's not that you get super excited that I just put another dollar in my bank account that I didn't have yesterday. It's the point that. That point of disbelief was just broken.

Right.

That. That point of, like the, you know, you go from one day going, man, this is all a scam. Nobody's really making money online. All these people that are telling me you can make money online or con artists to. You make that first dollar and you go, oh, shit, yeah, this is real. There is real money moving here. And it's that point of belief that just. That gets that overnight shift, which is why that making your first dollar online is.

Moment in the timeline of an entrepreneur.

Yeah, absolutely. I remember. I think you're absolutely right. Like, I remember I used to think to myself, it was so nice. It was motivating and inspiring to read other people succeeding. But I remember the amount of times I used to sit there and think, like, but when's it going to be my turn? When will I get to have this? You know, and you can. You. You have the belief in it being possible because you see others doing it. I don't think anything can validate it. Like seeing that first commission for yourself.

Yeah.

Really just shows it now goes from, well, it is possible to. It's possible for me. Right, for sure.

So, you know, with what you were saying, let's. Let's kind of jump back to a couple of minutes ago, what we were talking about. You were saying that, you know, it's. When it comes to affiliate marketing. You can drive ads to affiliate offers, but you're getting lower commissions these days and ad costs have kind of gone up over the years. So it's getting harder and harder to be profitable with affiliate marketing. So you know from, from your perspective and your experiences, what's kind of been the solution to that?

Yeah, great question. So what I primarily look for and there's not a lot of these, or at least I haven't found them yet, so I have to do a couple of different things as part of my strategy. The number one thing that I look for, excuse me, is affiliate programs whereby they do, they kind of do like lifetime commissions. I know people have different names for that, like sticky cookies or lifetime commissions, whatever, whatever different people call it. But essentially where I can sell that first thing, promote that initial offer and then there is a potential of me earning commissions on multiple products from them in the future. So that might be lower entry level stuff, it might be subscription based, it might be they pay out on their back end promotions. Even that to me is a fantastic thing to look for. Especially once if I send a bit of traffic and get a few customers their way and I start seeing those additional results happen. That's the type of stuff that I love to grow because I know then that that can be something that sustainably grows over a period of time. That's one thing.

Another thing that I like to do is build in recurring commission promotions into my follow up. So anything that can pay me over the long term. I mean I haven't promoted, for example, like Aweber for as long as I can remember. It was like a banner in my sidebar or maybe in a free report I gave away 10 years ago. They still pay me like between two and $300 a month. And I know that's not life changing in itself, but I've had that for 10 years.

Yeah, it's a foundational income that you just built for yourself.

It's funny that you say that because we actually had Tom from Aweber on the podcast and it was sort of a full circle moment for us because one of the very first affiliate offers that we ever kind of pushed and made some of our first commissions off of was AWeber. And just a couple months ago we had the CEO and founder of Aweber on this show and we were telling him that story and it was just this kind of really cool, amazing, full circle moment.

Yeah, that's amazing. And I used to love aweber back in the day when they used to send physical checks.

Yes, we talked about that, yeah, I think we actually brought that up in the podcast with him. We would get the checks in the mail and we're like, yeah, I used.

To take pictures of them and like post them on Twitter and be like, just got my fat commission. It'd be a check for like $13.

Rolling.

Dude, you make a good point on both of those points. Like so the. I want to go back to the first one you said because that's something that we've actually been telling others recently and telling ourselves we're telling other people this, this is usually in top of our minds too is like, you know, when you're promoting a product, promote a really good promote great tools, great, you know, info, whatever it might be, obviously, but promote with a good marketer and like if you know that they are really good at funnels. Like Russell Brunson for instance example is like we'll promote his new Traffic Secrets book. Had him on the podcast recently and we know like we're making a dollar on the book in full transparency and a lot of other people are promoting it too. But we know ClickFunnels is on the back end and all these other offers and he's really good at marketing. So it's like if you know, even if it's not a lot of money up front or even if it is, that's great too. But you knowing that there's a back end and there's marketing, that's going to happen. So in like a month you might see some random sale pop up from someone else's efforts, but all you did was just front load with, you know, with a relevant offer to your audience. I think that's exactly.

Yeah. And that's been, you know, because I don't just sort of. Because affiliate marketing now isn't the only thing I do. I just sort of build in these campaigns that go out to like I said, the people that haven't responded to our stuff, they now flow through these multiple promotions for other people's stuff. And I want to just keep growing that and it really ends up like I say, it's more of a long term view. I guess it's not like I'm solidly promoting this one or two things and I'm going to grow this into a full time income stream with this one or two things. It's more so I'm creating these multiple streams of income that yeah, in and of themselves they're not. Any of them aren't paying me like life altering sums of money by any account, but they're all Gradually building up, you know, and I just look at it to myself, well, imagine what this might be, you know, three years from now, you know, and you just raised clickfunnels. So I have that, that's one of the things that we have built in, like you just said, you know, send people to a free book. I mean there's nothing easier than that in my opinion, knowing that they're going to keep, you know, offering additional things that include those recurring commissions. And I think, I think I've been promoting click funnels, building it in for maybe the last couple of years. I think I'm at about 30 ish thousand dollars. So by no means not like a big massive affiliate. Yeah, but if that was an extra 10 or $15,000 a year, I mean, going back to when you and I first met, that was pretty much what I earned a year in my day job. Same, you know, now 10 years on, that's one simple commission that's flowing in each year from my business. And you build in multiple of these. Now all of a sudden you have a very, very powerful and effective affiliate side of your business.

Yeah, I think that's. Thanks for lining that up because that I think can paint a good picture of how it's possible. And yes, it might take a few years to get there, but I mean that's everything good in life. It's just you got to do the consistent work.

And even to amp things up a little bit more maybe we do a lot of demonstrations of products and tools and things that we really en. And you know, we had Pat Flynn on the podcast as well recently on a live stream talking about how he was like, it's demonstration. If you like show off the thing, you know, that could be a quicker way to cash if you're using, you know, maybe some ads or content marketing, you know, that's, there's almost like two styles. You can have that side that's a little quicker to an offer sale and then you have the other side, which is like the community building and back end of your products and stuff like that. If you're consistent, holy crap, you're going to win. But you just got to stay at it.

Yeah, exactly. And that's one of my messages that I always say to people because I think people, like we've just mentioned a moment ago, people are seeing the finish line and they want to just take one leap and go there. There's going to be, as we've well seen, I'm sure every one of us on this call and probably everyone listening over the last 10 years has had numerous challenges in business. We all go through the highs and the lows. And I think one of the things that I believe has contributed to being able to keep moving forwards in this business is the fact that I just always focus on taking that one small next step forwards. And even though sometimes I take two paces back because I keep focused on taking one step forwards, I might not get where I want to be as quick as I want to, but I will eventually get there. I employ everyone to just think that way, that if I can just take that one step consistently, even if sometimes I get a setback, I'm still going to get to where I want to be.

So what's a good footstep, a step forward in your case? Do you have some go to tasks or revenue generating activities that you would suggest to others that you end up doing primarily?

Yeah, good question. So I've simplified all my approach down to really four main areas, like four main things. Because I think one of my crutches in the past was that I always was like, I think, was it Alex Jeffries used to call us like busy fools or somebody said that expression, Somebody used to say like, you're a busy fool. And so I've really just tried to simplify everything down into like, what are the main things I need to focus on? What are those things I need to learn and do each day to make commissions to drive traffic and make everything work. So like the fourth four areas I focus on firstly is traffic generation. And I send all my traffic to somewhere where I'm capturing at least an email address. You know, so I'm, you know, that's like all of my traffic goes to some, some way of capturing that person's contact information somehow. From there, obviously I'm following up. So that's like my third thing, third thing. And then my fourth thing is making offers to those people. So that is literally the, the only four things that I'm focused on, like day in, day out is how am I getting more traffic today? You know, how many, like how well am I getting them to join my list and capture those people's information? Like, have I followed up with them today? You know, are they going through my automated emails or you know, have I sent out a broadcast today and then, you know, am I making offers consistently? Yeah, so like just those four things, I think if people focus on those. And the good thing is, is like.

The middle two, which is capturing, you know, building that list, capturing the information and then following up those two can be Built and put in place to at least a minimum viable level and pretty much left for a little bit anyway because you don't know how anything works till you get traffic.

True.

So once you get to a certain stage, I honestly believe people should be spending like 80% or more of their time on traffic generation activities and then optimizing what happens with that. And if people just focus in those four areas, that's what makes the money, that's what's going to get the results. Anything, you know, anything that doesn't support those four things, I honestly believe like, yes, they might need to be done, but they're not likely to impact revenue.

Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. That makes it feel very, very simple. Now when it comes to like your email marketing, do you, what's your approach? Do you email your list every single day? Do you have a, like, what's your process, your philosophy around email marketing?

Yeah. So, you know, hands up, I'm actually not doing a great job at this right now.

On the broadcast side of things, I've built a very effective automated campaign. We've got all this cool little stuff going on between infusionsoft and these things and these different campaigns. But what I'm not amazingly good at doing is taking time out to send broadcasts for regular stuff. And I think one of the reasons that is, in all honesty, just if it helps anyone else with this side of things, is I don't create much content or do much else because I've been so focused on paid ads. And so I always kind of feel like, oh well, I've got. Not really got anything new to talk to people about because I've built my campaigns, I don't really want to interfere with those. But once people have come through them, I should be sending stuff like broadcast style. That's routine. I don't have a great strategy in that sense. But. But that is about to change. I am about to start doing a weekly YouTube video and we do have a weekly podcast now that we're pretty very consistent with. So I've now got two things a week to communicate with my list in addition to other stuff. So that's an area I failed on recently that I need to improve.

It's interesting because we're sort of the opposite of that. We're really good about making sure we send a broadcast every single day, but we have practically no automated follow up sequence in place.

Oh, wow. Okay.

So once, once people get on our list, then it's just like the day two, they start just getting the broadcasts and We've actually started to notice that it can be a little bit of an issue because let's say somebody jumps on our list because they opted in for our traffic playbook, which is something we drive paid traffic to. So they opt in for our traffic playbook. And then the very next day they're getting a link to a podcast episode about Mindset and they're going, what? Wait, I opted in for your traffic book and today you're sending me a podcast episode about this? This doesn't make sense. So, like, you know, the. Where you're saying, you know, you should be doing more broadcasts and, you know, but you've got the follow ups dialed in. We don't have follow ups dialed in, but we do broadcasts every day. So there's definitely pros and cons on. On both sides of that coin.

Yeah, definitely. Like, I definitely realize that I'm missing out. Like, I know it's been. It's definitely. It's an area we're already actively thinking about. I know I failed there, but I definitely value the automated side of things.

Oh, I think it's brilliant. And I think for everyone listening, it's a simple thing to do for yourself because, yeah, you just set up a simple sequence that is the customer journey, but at the same time, like you said, you can probably leave it there in its place for quite some time as you're working on building up your traffic and your brand and your community and all that. And then it's just like you're kind of tweaking the conversion so making sure step two, your capture is actually working. You know, you want that thing to convert, so it's like, sure, that's a pretty good amount of time at first to dial in that portion of things. And then of course, your offer too.

Yeah, definitely. And the reason I sort of raised about focusing on the traffic because I think a lot of people get scared at the point of driving traffic. At least that's what I see.

And so people almost persuade themselves that they're not ready to drive traffic yet because their opt in page isn't good enough, or this isn't good enough, or that needs changing. And the honest reality is, as I see now, is it might be great. You just don't know until you send people to it. How do you know what your version of it needs to be better isn't actually making it worse? I think if people can just get those things in place, at least just to a minimum viable level, and just start working on the traffic, that's where you can start to see the improvement in your business until you focus on driving the traffic and then seeing what happens. You're just blind, really. You're just driving clueless.

No, it's actually, it's funny because we know it. I mean, pre training, the choir probably is. Like, sometimes some of the ugliest pages actually end up converting the best. Same with the ugliest ads or ones that probably didn't take a lot of thought or if. Or it didn't seem like it didn't take a lot of effort, but it just like, oh, that spoke to you. Like that copy, that headline, that design, whatever it might be. I mean, you know, we're not hiring crazy designers for our ads. It's just us that slap something together and usually it'll work. We're starting ugly, you know, but like, it's. It's almost like if you get something out there and then you're able to tweak the results and see a climb in conversions or effectiveness, it's almost like a little bit more of a good feeling because you're like climbing up. You're seeing progress rather than the doubt or all the shame of not putting something out there. Shit, I would rather, you know, put something out there ugly and then just improve it.

I don't know how many times I've made like a landing page and I'm like, I'll make it like real quick. There's no graphics. It's ugly as hell. And I'm like, I'm just gonna get this out because I want to start driving traffic to it. I'll go and pretty it up later, add some cool graphics and stuff, and I'll just put it out there and then I'll come back around, try to optimize it. And I could never beat the control of the ugly ass page that I built.

Case in point, right there. That's cool too. Then you proved it to yourself. Start ugly more often.

Do everything well. I've got another funny, like, funny little case study on that side of things. So about three years ago, we started another company for my wife, which is probably a whole nother subject for another day, but we do actually have a pretty fast growing company in the beauty industry.

Nice. Okay.

But it was what was funny just in relation to what you're saying there. So I didn't have the time to really help my wife. So she didn't really know until three years ago anything about any of this. Like, she just sees that I get on with it, but I didn't have the time to help her. So she had to learn how to use clickfunnels herself. And she really didn't take the time. Like I criticize her all the time. Like she just doesn't watch. Annoys the heck out of me for that. But she basically put together this like little free plus shipping funnel for her own makeup product and got it working with Facebook ads, like to a really, really good return. But the page was so bad. Like so bad. Like it wasn't even mobile. Like it was just terrible. And I said, oh, stand out the way, you know, move out the way, dear. That type of thing. Let me come through. I'm gonna take care of this. And I haven't been able to beat her conversion. Take that. It drives me insane. So, yeah, another case in point.

Yeah, it's true. That's so cool. I love it, man. My wife is actually starting her own business now and it's doing well. And yeah, I try to get in the. That I'm just like, what the hell am I doing? Nope, don't. My place is not here.

Good for her. And getting. That's. I love that case study, man. Well, shoot. I mean, is there anything with this affiliate marketing conversation, like are there any points that you would want to kind of lay out here for folks that you typically reserve for? You know, obviously we have your book too, the Iceberg effect. So I want to shout that out really quick. Do we. I think we have a link for it, right, Matt?

Yeah, I think we set up a link@hustleandflowchart.com Iceberg.

That's right, iceberg. That'll get that book. And then it's a free plus shipping as well.

Are there any areas around affiliate marketing? There's a few other topics we still want to go into with you before we let you go. But is there anything else around affiliate marketing specifically that maybe you want to touch on that we haven't.

Yeah. Well, I guess just one final thing that might be helpful for people to add because we did just touch on it slightly. There was in terms of like say the follow up and the campaign side of things. I mean a simple way that I began putting some automated campaigns in place. Like it'd be super simple way for you guys, I imagine like with. With how you're already doing it is. I would just take. I started taking the broadcast promotions that I was doing. Like the ones that went well, say if I decide right, I'm doing a five day promotion for this thing, this new service or software, whatever it might be. If that promotion Works, I then would take that and then I would then just put it in place as an automated campaign so that a defined period, every person that's joining my list would then go through that same promotion. And if people are doing an affiliate promotion, some people do one once a week, some people do them every other week, once a month, whatever it might be. However frequently you do it, you're going to build up your campaign. So even if you did just one affiliate promotion a month over the next 12 months, if you built those into automated campaigns, you now have 12 promotions that every one of your leads, every person that you bring into your business will go through and see, you know, and you'll see, you'll be able to then see those, you know, those promotions building up over time. And that is of course in addition to then the broadcast that can be done. So that was just a. Because I used to be the same. It was, I never had any emails in place. So, you know, if anyone, you know, any of you listeners are in that sort of position, that was how I started to transition into that. So maybe I can help.

Russell Brunson calls that giving yourself a raise every day when he refers to giving yourself a raise every day. He's talking about adding a new email to your follow up sequence that generates sales.

Just another shout out for the Iceberg effect book. I think one of my favorite parts about this book is on page 84, you actually break down a seven day email sequence that essentially anybody could just kind of plug into.

Their own autoresponder. So you start building a list and you actually have a seven day breakdown of here. Send this email on day one, send this email on day two, send this email on day three. And I think that that could be really, really beneficial for a lot of people that are trying to build out this stuff for the first time.

Yeah, no, I really appreciate the shout out. Like you say, people can grab a copy, we give them away. It's just shipping and handling. So I'm sure there's, you know, I really just detailed everything, you know, we touched on some of those things, but I really detail everything. And it's a bit of a workbook as well. You know, there are pages for people to, you know, I give exercises throughout the book to bring people to a point where by the time they finish they can really just get down to business. They know what they're doing, they understand why things haven't worked. If they are in that position and they understand the things, the areas they need to focus on and move forwards With. So, yeah. Hope people enjoy it.

Love it. Yeah.

Well, cool. I want to touch quickly, too. On your podcast, you've got a podcast with a co host, who I believe is an American co host.

Right.

So you guys are virtual. You guys are obviously not in the same location. I'm guessing, as you do the podcast. Why did you decide to add a podcast in the mix? How did that whole thing come about?

Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to tell you that it was a well thought out and executed thing that was strategic and all that kind of good stuff.

But basically I was in Russell Brunson's Mastermind, actually his inner circle program, and a guy that I got to know there. I didn't have a relationship previously. He sent me a message. I was at the airport waiting to fly back to the uk, and he just. Just sent me a message and say, hey, do you want to do a podcast together? And at that stage, I'd never even actually listened to a podcast. Two or three years ago, I knew what they were. But believe it or not, I'm very new to podcasts. I think I said to you before we recorded, I think it's the second time I've ever been on a podcast on this side of the table. So, like, podcasts, to me, are a relatively new thing. And so we just purely started it. We both found out we had a similar personality, and we had a great time together over a week. And it was just like two friends just deciding to do a podcast together and see where it leads. And I said to you guys, before we started, I was like, it sounds like we have a similar approach with the way we want our podcast to be. Our whole approach with it was like we just want to have an informal thing that's not rigid and boring and dull. It's almost like we want people to feel like they're listening into a conversation with friends and we're just talking about business. We have a laugh with each other and. And even take little jabs at each other sometimes and just have a laugh. There is no agenda with the podcast. In fact, you know what we realized? We did our 150th show yesterday. We recorded our 150th show yesterday.

Very cool.

And I think only about nine shows ago did we ever give a link to anything. Oh, wow.

So it was just. Is it just the two of you guys, or do you have a guest?

Well, we have guests on it. Like, every now and then, we have a guest on it. It used to be a show that was all guests.

But we started getting a few requests. People started saying, I'd love to know more about you guys. You guests are amazing, but tell us more about you. So we now have this healthy mixture of just us two and then guests.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. We actually started doing episodes that we called therapy sessions. So ours is pretty much all guests. But then once a month, we did a therapy sessions episode where we didn't have guests. Joe and I just kind of talked about, this is what's working well in our business. This is what we're struggling with. These are, like, personal mindset issues that we're dealing with right now, where we just kind of talk about whatever was going on in our lives. But we've actually sort of phased out the therapy sessions over the last couple of months due to demand from guests wanting to be on the show.

It's totally a demand thing. Yeah, we'll probably record something today, actually, since Matt and I are finally together for the first time in, like, over a month.

Well, I'll tell you guys something. I. Because, like I say, we've decided now, the reason I say nine show, nine or ten show, whenever it was. We recently started trying to do something more with the podcast because we realize it can be something quite special. So we're trying to make more of it now. And so I'm actually starting to put effort in, and we're starting to learn and to give props to you guys, I think it was it you, Matt. I was trying to find podcasts to hear people talking about podcasts, and I'm sure I listened to one with you guys or one of your. I'm sure it was you. And you were talking about your particular strategy, and I. I frantically took notes. I sent James, my co host, I sent him an email specifically about you guys, and I was studying you, and I was like, these guys have it done. You need to see what these are doing. And I even picked up on little things, like in your emails. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this stuff, so I probably won't.

No, go for it. We're an open book with everything we do.

Okay, cool. And I'm like, oh, should I be saying, like, you send something in your guest. Like, you have this awesome welcome thing with your guests, and you have this page, and it tells you more about the show, and you've got that, like, dream 100 spreadsheet that you send out.

Yeah.

I was taking all these notes, and I heard this podcast with you, and you're talking about you have a retargeting strategy, am I right?

Definitely.

You're talking about you've got a guest on about a particular thing. You can retarget listeners. Let's say if you, I don't know, had Russell Brunson on you, maybe retarget people that listen to that show to clickfunnels or his book. Right. So you have this whole strategy. And I took so many notes, and that was before I knew I was coming on this show, I think. Yeah, it would be really interesting to you guys.

Yeah, it would be really interesting if people who were listening to the show all of a sudden started seeing the iceberg effect all over Facebook and us talking about it. That would be really weird. Just.

Just wait. Wait until the end of the episode and then log on Facebook. Go browse around Google.

I know, right? You're like, yeah, we're a complete open book. Hang on a minute. We didn't say that.

Open. What are you doing? I won't say the kind of ad you'll see, but you'll see something.

No, that's awesome. The show's named Just the Tips, which, you know, just by the title of the show, you can kind of get a feel of. You know what I love about what you guys do, and I think what Joe and I do is we started business because we wanted to have more fun, right? Like, we. We wanted to obviously take the time control back in our. Our hands. We didn't want to have, like nine to five jobs with other people telling us when to be where, but we also just wanted to, like, have that freedom to go travel and to have more fun and. And, you know, we've always taken this approach of business can be fun. You don't have to take business so seriously. So our whole approach has been like, we're. We're serious entrepreneurs. We make real money doing what we do, but we don't take ourselves too seriously. Let's just. Let's just have fun with it all. And I think people are attracted to that, and I think that's why your show is seeing success. I think that's why our show is seeing success is we talk about business, but we're also just normal dudes who like to have fun and just don't take life or business too seriously.

Yeah, definitely. I think you're spot on like, that, like, so many people are craving that, like, every. Like, so many people are so serious online. And I'll be honest, things got quite serious for me for a while, which is why I'm throwing Myself into this podcast and just want to have more fun, just enjoy it again. Like you just said, we all got into this business, not to necessarily be in business. I know. For me, I never thought about having a business. It's still a bit bizarre that I have a company now. I didn't get into it for that. And I think sometimes we do have to remind ourselves of that, don't we? Right? It's like 10 years have gone by since we last spoke. I'm glad to hear we're having fun with this.

Dude, you hit it on the head. I was actually thinking about this the other night myself. I was like, I don't think I've ever actually gone out in my life to, like, work for myself. I never told myself I wanted that. I just wanted to have fun in whatever I did. And I want freedom of just certain things in my life, and I definitely have all of that. And I'm like, wow, this is crazy. And then I'll find myself taking things really seriously or like, oh, I gotta get this done. You know, it's like, hold up, slow down, Joe. Like, usually it's my wife saying this because obviously, but I'm just like, like, man.

By his wife, he means me.

That too.

Work wife.

But like, God, it's just. You look back at 29, 2009, or whatever it was when we were starting out, we were having fun, and look where it led us. Look who the people, the network, and the things and relationships we still have. And if you just stay in that vein, it's tough sometimes when shit gets real and money's tight or debt's high or whatever it might be. But, dude, just have fun. Just, like, live it up. Because you're here, you're doing something that you love. If you're pursuing the business thing, it's probably something you love or you're passionate about. Just fricking stay there. It's really tough, but do it. And it pays off if you're consistent. But it's cool to hear that you're in the same boat, man.

Yeah, 100%, I always say to people these days. I mean, there's so many people online that are just pushing like, oh, get rich quick. And it's so easy to money. And the honest reality is there becomes a point where it gets easier, doesn't it? There becomes a point it gets easier, but the reality is business is tough. It doesn't matter what other people are saying. Anyone that's telling you it's not difficult is probably got a secret agenda. They're probably trying to sell you something. You can listen to podcasts like this. You can get a mentor or join. Look at us. We were in the same coaching program. Look where that led. And I'm sure we've both had coaches and mentors and things that we've done to continue that journey. And I think for anybody listening, if they're stuck in that starting point and they feel stuck and they're struggling, find ways to make it easier. Because once you get off the ground, then it really can be so much fun, can't it? Like you said, we had so much fun when we were getting started.

We really did.

Too much fun.

It's too much fun. But it's like, man, and we did us. I know I didn't have much at that time. And I'm like, man, the fact that I can have so much fun then with guys like you guys. And we were doing cool things. We're building a foundation. What's to say we can't just do that now and other people can do the same who are starting right now? In these times, there's so many people starting. So I think it's just a good thing to put out there. 10 years can take you far away like it has for us.

It's really cool.

Yeah. Well, on that note, you know.

I.

Think that's a good place to sort of start to wrap up. So the Iceberg Effect. We set up a link over@hustleinflowchart.com Iceberg. Are there any other books that you tend to refer back to often or you find yourself recommending to clients or friends, maybe around topics we've talked about, or maybe not, but are there any other books that you find yourself going back to?

Good question. So I have Next to my bed, like, several books, but the one that has stayed there for a long, long time is Ready, Fire, Aim.

Very cool. Yeah, we actually had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Mark Ford. Mark Ford just a couple weeks ago.

Mr. Masterson. Mr. Ford. Yeah. Great book. Really cool guy. And, yeah, that's a great book. And it was really. We had the pleasure of hanging out with Rich Sheffern and him and all that at his Mike's or Mark's Cigar, all of his other books. I was like, holy crap. I didn't realize he had that many books.

Yeah, he had a whole bookshelf of just books that he wrote. I was like, damn, this guy has been busy.

Yeah, that's a great book. So great recommendation. I kind of want to reread it.

And another one of my other favorite author. And I always avoid this because I don't know how to say his name, but it's like Mike Michalowicz or something.

Oh, Mike Michalowicz, yes.

Yeah, that's it. There we go.

I think he's just got a new book coming out, so I can't wait to pick that up. But his books, I love those. His style is great.

Pretty much any book he's written, you recommend?

Yeah, indeed.

Yeah.

He's. He's another past alumni of the show. He's actually been on the show. It's probably been. We should probably get him back. It's probably been a couple of years now.

Yeah, we should give him back. He's a really cool guy. Yeah.

But, yeah, Profit First. That was the first book that I experienced from him. And although I haven't totally implemented all of what he taught in Profit first yet, that book totally changed the way I think about finances.

So. Yeah.

And then Clockwork, you know, we definitely implemented a bunch of his strategies from Clockwork about sort of reorganizing and making better systems around our business so that our business can run without us.

Yeah. And the new one, I don't know the name, but, yeah, I gotta pick that up. It's brand new. We'll bring it back.

We'll bring it back.

But, Dean. Yeah, those are great recommendations, Dean. Hustleandfluechart.com iceberg to get the book. It is free, plus shipping. And then just the tips is your podcast.

I love that name.

Make a bit what you will. Sometimes people come back and they're like, hang on, somebody's just told me something about this name.

Sweet.

I just find it hilarious that some people don't realize that there's a double meaning there.

Yeah, of course.

I just love the idea of people, like, really innocent people that don't see the connection rushing back to their wife or husband, being like. Like, I've just been on just the.

Tips with a couple dudes.

I like to imagine I can create that instance sometime.

Oh, man.

Well.

Well, on that note, is there anywhere else that you'd want people to check out? Obviously. Hustleandflowchart.com iceberg. You know, social media accounts, any other URLs that you think people should go check out to kind of dive deeper?

No, that's about it. Like I say, I don't put a lot online these days, so I just wanted to come and share as much as I could with. With your people, so.

Right on, brother.

Love it.

It's been Great catching up. And we'll probably have around two. I think it'll be fun. Chat about maybe the beauty business or something else.

Yeah, well, hopefully before 2030, though, we should.

Yeah, yeah, let's try to do it at least within the next 10 years.

Please do that. All right, man.

10 years. I'll come back.

Perfect.

Deal.

All right, man. Good talking to you.

You too. Thank you so much.

Thanks so much for tuning into that episode. I hope you dug it. I know Joe and I dug it. I actually kicked Joe out of the room. He's not here right now. Because I wanted to tell you about a tool that I really, really dig. We use it in our business. We recommend it all the time. It's called Easy Webinar. And it's a tool that lets you do live webinars, automated webinars, hybrid webinars, and, you know, pretty much any other kind of webinar, if there are other kinds of webinars. But anyway, this tool is kind of like your all in one, do it all tool for anything webinar related. It's Easy Webinar. It's put out by a dude named Casey Zman. He's been on the podcast if, if you haven't listened to that episode. It's a killer episode. He's a really smart dude, but his software is amazing. It does everything. It's, you know, the title tells you exactly what it does. It's an easy webinar platform, and we use this in our business to run automated webinars all the time. We don't do a lot of live webinars these days. We like to do the kind of automated webinars where somebody can register and then it, you know, they can either watch it like 15 minutes later or they can watch it the next day, but it's just kind of always running, running. And it's a system that helps us make autopilot sales off of our webinars. Super cool tool. If you haven't tried it yet, you know, it's, it's, it's an amazing tool. And Casey is actually hooking you up, he said. For listeners of Hustle and Flowchart, I can't believe he's doing this, but he said for listeners of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, he's giving 25 off of the membership to use Easy Webinar. It's already super, super inexpensive for what it does and all the cool features it has, has. But he's hooking you up with 25% off because you're a listener of Hustle and flowchart, go to easywebinar.com hustle that's where you can get that 25% off discount. That's easywebinar.com hustole. It's a awesome tool. You're gonna dig it, so just go grab it. Check it out. Easywebinar.com hustle See ya. No, not see ya. You'll hear me in the next show. I don't know. I don't know how to close these things. Go get easy Webinar. Talk to you later.

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