Doc Williams - The Gary Vee Content Model 2.0

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Float Shark podcast with your boys, Mount Wolf and Joe Fear. Wiki wiki wiki. Alrighty.

What are we. What are you sighing about, Matt? I don't know. No, I know, you know.

Well, we were talking about somebody that left a one star review on our podcast. Literally before I hit record, you're like, screw that person who left a one star review.

No, that was one of our customers were saying that.

Well, the customer didn't leave the one star review.

No, he was the one saying, screw that person.

Oh, okay. Yeah, it was one of our customers saying that.

No, we were just talking about. Because we always do these intros and like, this is our chance to actually, like, talk. Not only talk about the episode you're about to listen to, of course, but we want to give the highlights, open some loops, and kind of riff a little bit of how we relate to what was just spoken. And it was just kind of funny. Cause we were looking at that review. We had a client basically, like, who the heck gave you a one star review? Because actually in that review it said, and hey, the content's like, really great. They bring great people on, but man, I hate their intro.

One star.

Yeah, I'm like, wait, what? So you're like throwing the baby out of the bathwater? Like.

Yeah, you can't listen to the first 10. You can't skip past the first 10 minutes to get to the good content.

Like, what?

Yeah, so if you, if you some reason hate our intro, just skip ahead. Like, yeah, five, ten minutes. You're good. Yeah, like, we won't hate you. You're fine.

Yeah, we won't even know. I promise.

Promise.

There's no tracking for us to know. Yes.

No, but I see these intros as a way to, like, quickly kind of discuss some of our takeaways from the person that we just got done talking with. We sort of pre. Tell you what we're going to talk about. And then I also see these intros as a way to sort of inject our personality and what we're up to in the, like right now and have a little fun. Right? We don't. We don't get to inject it as much during the interviews because we want to put the spotlight on them. So we use the intro to kind of talk about, kind of just have fun ourselves for a few minutes in each of these episodes. So that's really what these intros are designed to be. Kind of consider them like mini Short therapy sessions tacked onto the front of an episode.

There you go. Yeah. So, yeah, that's our hashtag rant right there. We'll end just so you saw a little look at, like, what was happening before we hit record. We're like, we're sticking to our intros because we love them.

Yes. We have fun doing these intros.

Yeah, we do. All right, so today we got a really awesome dude, a very thoughtful gentleman, and this dude is like. Like we were saying, feels like he's lived many, many, many lifetimes going through business and ventures and projects and all that stuff. The dude looks our age. I don't know. We didn't ask, but Doc Williams is on the show today.

Yeah, dude. He was so he. He's worked with espn, the US Olympic medal team. He worked with Appsumo. He's worked with. I mean, he'll get into it in the show. He ran his own CrossFit gym for a little while. I mean, he's just. He's done so much stuff. He ran a candy store. He'll get into that.

7.

I was gonna leave that. I was gonna leave that part out, but okay.

No, it' reality TV show star. Yeah.

We also talked about my illegal activities growing up.

Yeah. But they're not. You didn't do those.

No, it was. I mean, I may or may not have.

Yeah. I don't have any proof. Do you?

No, it was a work of fiction.

So, yeah, Doc is awesome. This guy. So, like, we talked about, like, not many people make the cut from just outreaching gold. He did, and it was very obvious why. Because this dude really thinks things through, and he presented amazing value to us to understand his model. So this. He actually has this. He calls it the Gary Vee Content Model 2.0.

Yes.

Which is really cool. And he's actually. Yes. He has worked with, you know, vaynersports and that whole company and has sat down with Gary and AJ's brother. So the dude makes stuff happen.

Yeah.

And it's all through content, which we love.

Yeah, Well, I mean, basically. So Gary Vee is a big proponent of creating high value content and then sort of breaking that content up and repurposing it and spreading it everywhere, which ideally brings people back to your brand.

Right.

And in theory, it's sounds like a great idea and very simple concept, but in practice, when you start to do it, it's actually very, very time consuming and a lot of. For a lot of people, it kind of goes against their personality and what their normal tendencies are. So his 2.0 model is a model that sort of leans into more of what your personality is suited for and also repurposing content in a. In a way where you're getting it in front of more of the right people instead of just kind of spraying and praying.

Yeah. And in that process, you're also learning what people like from you and want to hear more of and which channels they're on as well. So you can have that. You're basically establishing really good conversations and relationships. So you can then take them off to, you know, some service or offer a freebie or whatever you got after the fact.

Yeah, it's good stuff. And he's. He's got some cool stuff available for you. He's. You can go and opt in and he's going to hook you up with, you know, the. The doc that breaks down this model. And then he's also got an assessment that tells you what type of content you should be focused on in your business. And he offered to give that to you as well. I don't think he normally gives that away on podcast. And he gave it to us.

He added it to you guys while we're on the show. We begged him and pleaded.

So I'm gonna. I'm gonna read this link off, but we're also gonna link this up in the show notes. So if you go to brand factory inc.com hustle-flowchart-freebie. So that's brandfactoryinc.com hustle flowchart freebie with dashes in there. That's where. That's where you can get this freebie. But again, you can also just go to the Evergreen Profit site and we'll make sure it's linked up. So if you forget that URL, that's where you can find it as well.

Yeah. And that I've, I've actually gone through it already. Not the personal. That's a new one on the show, but the doc he gives you, it's actually a full. It's a massive PDF that gives you step by step of this process. We don't go in, obviously, all the little details, but in that freebie he gives you, it's all in there. And I highly recommend grabbing that.

Yep, yep. And also, we took our own notes on this episode.

Yes, we do. We always do. Because we don't just talk about that model, you know, specifically. That's just very, you know, linear on that. We talk about a lot. A lot, a lot, a lot, like always. So, yeah, those notes. Those notes are free. And we take them for you.

Yeah.

So we pay big dollars for the best note takers. And honestly, we have the best note takers. I'm like, wowed by these notes. It's kind of like a ritual of mine to each day, just read one of the notes. I love to do that. It's just like a refresh.

Just like one line item or one set of notes.

One episode, we'll say, okay, okay. Not one.

Yeah.

One bullet point a day.

Every day. I just read one bullet point. I'm falling way behind.

I don't I'll ever keep up. But yeah, no, it's a great way to stay up to date and almost like refresh your brain. Even if you've listened to the episode, like, me being in the episode, I forget a lot of stuff.

Yeah, yeah. Or if you get the EGP letter every month, that's what I tend to do is I wait for the EGP letter to come each month, and then when that EGP letter comes, I actually set aside about an hour and I sit down and I flip through my entire EGP letter and just get a refresher of, like, everything we talked about with our guests in the last month.

Take care, highlight.

But with this episode, you can go get the notes for free right now. If you get them within the next couple of weeks of this episode coming out. There's two ways to get them.

Get them.

Let me see if Joe remembers the phone number.

I. I'm going to butcher it because I was already trying to remember it. And I know three.

It starts with a 338470, comp.

Dang. That is it. 38470, comp. 38470, comp.

We actually do have. Somebody actually sent us a jingle.

That's our name. Yeah, it was Sue. Sue actually sent us a video. Y. She said it was like a PBS show or something when she was growing up.

No, no. But we actually had somebody actually record the 38470, comp jingle and send it to us.

Yes, that's right. Because we. We put a. Put it out there. I think we're like, hey, if anyone wants to do a jingle or has some ideas. Actually, I think they did that one unwarranted.

Yeah.

And they actually created that we should really reach out and ask for permission so we could just slap it in.

Yeah, I think we got permission. Did we actually. I think Shannon said that she reached out and got permission to use it, so.

Good, good. Yeah, we should. I love it.

So you may actually hear it in A second. Maybe we'll make that the transition between this episode and, like, the. Like our intro in the actual episode.

Let's do it. I think it's a great idea. And if anyone else wants to make a jingle like that. Awesome. Please, like, hookier the better. You know, like, we're all about cheesy. Oh, my God. Okay, so here's the thing. If you actually want to do this and if it makes the cut, because I'm sure we're going to get, like, hundreds and millions of these things.

Email us infoevergreenprofits.com that's our support staff. Shannon will actually see that, most likely. And just say, put in the subject line or something like, this is an intro for Matt and Joe.

This is an intro, intro, intro, intro, intro.

So we will, like, if it's legit and if we have permission and if it crosses, if you're saying the right number and all that, probably put it on the episode and we'll call you out, too.

38470, comp. All right. And then you can also go to hust.

That'll get you to the notes as well.

Always.

Either one of those places, you can get the notes for free. You got to be quick. They're up for two weeks from the time the episode goes live, and then the only way to get them after that is to be an epic member, which means you're a subscriber of the EGP letter. All right. You know, we should do. Yes, we should go talk to Doc Williams.

Okay, let's do it. Let's go. 38470, comp. Doc, welcome to the show, man.

Thanks so much, guys. Excited. Thanks for having me on.

For sure. I really wanted to say, what up, Doc? I'm sure you hear that way too many times.

That probably doesn't get old, does it?

Get that.

I know, I know. It's kind of like the whole thing with, like, Joey, you going with that gun in your hand. Okay. Heard it about 20 billion times, but.

When people do that, I still act shocked. I'm like, oh, no, this is totally new for me. This is fine.

That was really clever there. Good job.

Yeah, man. So we're chatting about all. We always love finding out connections of folks that we our buddies. And you were telling us because you actually called outreach to be on our show, and very few make the mark.

But then you're like, dude, I'm really good buddies with A.J. roberts. And we're like, holy crap. Okay. He's a good buddy of ours. And I think a listener, A.J. occasional listener.

Yeah. Small world. It was pretty crazy. But yeah, guys, Yeah, I love to connect.

For sure.

No, it was funny because right before we hit record, we were talking and you reached out to be on the show, and we probably get three or four people reaching out to be on the show every day or so, and I usually forward them over to Joe and say, hey, what do you think of this one? What do you think of this one? And we kind of decide together which people to bring on the show and which ones aren't good fits. And I probably had emailed about three people before you saying these ones aren't good fits and forwarding them to Joe. And with you, I accidentally hit reply instead of forward, but luckily you were one of the ones that I said, this guy sounds like he's got some really cool stuff. Let's bring him on. And so I'm just so glad that I didn't hit reply by accident and say, this guy stinks. Let's not bring him on.

Yeah, I'm glad it worked out. It was possible my self esteem would have been shot for a week. I would have just started drinking early for the day.

And then I had to go back and double check all the ones that I forwarded to Joe earlier to make sure I didn't accidentally reply to him.

Get all paranoid.

Yeah, no, it's rare that we bring a lot, you know, just someone that we don't have a prior relationship with and. But you blew us away, man.

This is kind of like speaking to other folks, listening. Just if you're trying to get on shows or just get the attention of anyone. I mean, you came with so much value and a model that was easy to follow, and we're like, okay, this thing is gold. We really want to share it, especially since it's such a practical thing people could try out. So props to you, doc.

Thanks, man. Good time. Glad. Just trying to bring some value. So I'm happy to be here and love the show. And I was like, you know what? Yeah, I think this would be awesome. So good times.

Yeah, man.

Well, let's. Let's dig into your backstory a little bit. What were you doing before you got into the marketing world and how did you get into it?

So I think I've always been kind of into marketing and kind of some stuff. So, I mean, like, honestly, I got into marketing in like, when I was like 23, but I mean, I started when I opened my first candy shop at 7 in my basement, and. And then afterwards I. I became a wedding DJ at 12. So pretty much always been doing stuff.

With marketing at an early age.

Dude, what got you into. Well, candy. I mean, that's at seven. It's pretty young. Most people started, like, you know, wheeling and dealing at their schools. I know that's how it was out of the backpacks, but was it your parents or what?

Yeah, I mean, the whole thing is like, my parents just pretty much let me do whatever I wanted. Like, they were just like, what's going on with this kid? Like, my other siblings were not like that. And they were just like, you know, this is weird, but okay. And I was like, I want to open up my trading card and candy business in the basement. They're like, all right. So I got business cards. And then I would start selling candy at school and then to my siblings, too, because, you know, when they were hungry, like, supply and demand.

Charge them.

Yeah, yeah. Like, my oldest is. My older sister's like nine and a half years older and she still, like, tells stories. She's like, he charged me like 450 for this bar. I'm like, listen, the demand was high. I had to do it.

Stores are closed. Mom didn't want to drive to the store.

You didn't have any better options at the time. What can I say?

Exactly right. Exactly right. So, like, did that. And then afterwards, anime was really big when I was coming up and I started selling bootleg VHS tapes at school because they were subtitled and of course, no copyright infringement because it was straight there. So I went to the international market, bought or rented Dragon Ball Z videos that weren't out in the States, would bootleg it, and then just start selling it at school.

There you go. Oh, man. Yeah, Matt, you were doing something similar.

I was. I was doing. I was the first person in my high school to have a CD burner. And so whenever new albums came out, I was the one to go to.

Oh, that's perfect. That's gold right there.

Yeah, yeah.

But what I was doing, I think, was probably a little less legal than what you were doing.

Yeah. So we can't confirm or deny that ever happened. So. Yeah.

Yeah, I got. I got kicked off the Internet by Metallica, if you remember.

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah. No, but it was back in the Napster days where you couldn't just go download whole albums. You had to go on Napster. You'd go to like, CD Baby.com or something, and you'd look up the track list of all the songs on the album. And then I go to Napster and I download every single song individually and then arrange them in the order they'd go on the album and then burn them and sell them at school.

Oh, man, those were the days. That was awesome.

But VHS is, man. Yeah, those are. It's going back.

And Napster, Kaza, Limewire is on all that.

Yep, I remember all those.

I think hopefully we're past the statute of limitations on this stuff.

Yeah, I mean they can't not. I mean, you're admitting it. It doesn't matter.

It's too late now.

Yeah.

Just want to talk about all the other stuff you did too. Matt. Batman. Yeah. So you did all that Hawking, VHS is. Where'd you go from there?

Well, during that time I was doing that and then basically I always had this thing where, I don't know, I've always wanted to just be helpful and I always wanted to either go places or get things for free. And I was like, if that's the case, I've got to figure out a skill. And deejaying was like the best option. So in high school I got two turntables and a microphone and, and basically started doing DJs for parties. And then, I mean, honestly, if you look at like my pictures like now and then before, I've always had a mustache. So people always thought I was older when I was like 12. And people were like, hey, can you do this wedding? I was like, yeah. My parents would drop me off and I would DJ weddings on the weekends.

That is so cool.

That's very smart of you. Leave that stash on there.

So you've pretty much just always been an entrepreneur. You kind of rolled from one thing to another or did you have some McDonald's jobs in the mix?

You know what, I was always just doing part time jobs and then hustled on the side. So I was a lifeguard for four or five years and I was teaching swim lessons and that was pretty sweet, pretty chill. And then I would again DJ and do other things and experiment on the weekend. So even when I went to college and went into massage therapy and physical therapy assistant, I mean after that I very quickly then opened my own gym when I was in my early 20s. So yeah, I was always doing stuff.

That's awesome.

Yeah, man. So I got you all going into just the whole mindset and how to kind of arrange your time and obviously your worth and that just adds up to where you're at now, which it seems like are you full all content marketing and we'll dig into this because it seems like, you made a pivot from all of that into kind of more the online space.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm full time with content marketing. And yeah, I mean, that's. I've been doing that full time for about three and a half years or so. But I mean, when I was transitioning, I was still teaching at tech schools and teaching at community colleges and different subjects. And then I would do this on the side until I went to full time.

So what got you into really focusing on that? So, you know, pivoting from. So I guess you did a lot of teaching as well. So you've done so much. This is wild.

Well, you know, and that's the problem. Like, so I did this with my friend. We were talking about, like, back and forth, different jobs. I have one friend that he's beat me. Different types of jobs, different types of careers. So I've had about 47 different jobs. And he's at 73 and we're a year apart. So, like, I can't catch up.

That's true. He's gonna keep hustling.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. So unless he slows down or something, like, you know, really drastic happens to him, like, I'm not gonna catch it. But yeah. So, I mean, I've just always been trying to do different things, I guess. Yeah, content marketing kind of happened the transition when I was running my brick and mortar crossfit gym, and I was trying to figure out how to market and figure that out. And that first time, it, like, just failed completely. Like, one of my friends, I think this is like 2011, something like that. He's like, hey, have you heard of this guy? He sells potato guns and he used to be a wrestler. I was like, I have no idea who you're talking. He's like, ah, he's awesome. And it was Russell. And then afterwards he's like, this guy works at Mintz and he's got some earrings and he's got this thing called sumo me. And I'm like, ah, whatever. So I tried it. I totally bombed at it and I didn't understand it. And then a couple years later started picking it up and really started doing that full time.

So what were you messing up on that you didn't know at the time? But what were you bombing on that people can learn from?

Well, the problem was running, so creating a website for my gym. My wife will tell you, at that time, I was so bad at everything, I was having trouble hyperlinking links in an email. Like, I was so bad at everything. Tech and so setting up landing pages and opt in forms and everything. I remember that was really like when I first heard of leadpages and stuff. Like, I knew I had to do something, but, like, there was such a gap. And my friend that introduced me to like, Noah Kagan, he's like, hey, just create a WordPress site, do all this stuff. I just did not understand it. So it was just too much at one time. And I just like, totally backed away because I was failing at all that. Trying to run a brick and mortar and learn marketing, it was like too much.

I mean, dude, I have buddies that own gyms and it's tough. Yeah. Because you're dealing with obviously overhead of a gym, managing that system. There's a lot there. And then you have the marketing side and you're like, wait, what do I do? WordPress? How do I install that? So what would you suggest? Actually? Because there's a lot of those folks I think, listening to. How would you approach it differently now?

I would really.

To tell you the truth, I think just being a gym owner and myself, I was just trying to do everything myself. And even before even introducing technology or what they need to do, they just need to streamline what kind of business they want and not be reactionary. I think the main problem I kept having was I was comparing myself. I'm like, oh, I want 200 members. I got to do X, Y and Z. I got to do it like them. And it just went down the wrong rabbit hole. And I couldn't even focus on what was important and what I needed on a website and what worked to convert. So I really think it's like stepping back, like what type of gym or what kind of business brick and mortar you need to do, and then from there filling it in with the right systems and processes.

Right. That makes sense. Because of the folks that I know who have gems. It's like, they'll. Yeah, I don't know this for sure, but, like, there's a lot of people that you'll do modeling, you know, you'll see, oh, this gym's doing that. Like you said, 200 members. That's the goal. Okay. They're doing all this content or they have all these landing pages, ebooks, all that stuff. It's like, well, maybe you don't need all of that, but you just need to identify some key elements that will get you there.

Yeah, dude. I mean, and the main thing is, like, if I just knew that, like, I didn't even have the right system to just do a simple like lead capture and then automated emails afterwards, I think that saves you so much. And if I slapped on a heat map and really knew what was going on and what my, the behavior patterns, I would have saved so much time and energy because I was trying to do all of these complicated funnels that really didn't. I didn't need to be there at that time. I was just following someone else.

That makes sense. Yeah. Just capture them, get that list, follow up. Simple, simple, simple. Keep it simple. Email list is where it's at.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just a side point, if it's like, like local business, I'm, I'm in love with just doing stuff with Google my business and all the things going on there. That has been like the biggest game changer for, for when I was, when I'm working with other, other gyms. Google my business, I didn't understand how powerful it was. So if I could go back, man, I wouldn't spend nearly anything. I would just really get good at that.

Wait, so that, that I don't know much about Matt, do you.

Is that like the doing the citations and getting the. Basically the business listing up the ranks of Google? I'm not familiar either. I'm just kind of guessing.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, so it's kind of like when Google was like promoting their shopping like tab and everything back in the day. Yeah, I guess it was like what, three or four years ago when they were trying to do that.

Right.

So when you go with Google My business, they're putting everything in place. If you're creating posts organically with your Google my business account and you're creating offers and you're being really active using your account, they're gonna skyrocket you in your local area for the local SEO. And in that account they'll tell you what people are searching for by volume. And then I can actually then just change the titles of the posts that I make on my website and the posts that I make organically from my Google my business page. And I can have coupons and everything and then pretty much it's doing all the marketing for you.

Wow, that's pretty. That's pretty cool. Anybody listening? If you've got a brick and mortar local business, definitely check out the Google my business thing. Cause that's something we're not familiar with. We haven't done a lot with local business stuff. We're always kind of going for the volume. Get stuff out to the whole world. Digital online courses and things like that.

Yeah, yeah. I mean it's pretty powerful, especially if you just put the Google tracking code on it. So don't even spend any money. Don't even do that with your ads yet. You're learning so much more organically and then you can look at best practices and then when you do your first ads campaign and you can do it relatively cheaper, especially if you're doing most aware of things about your own business, you can really double down on that.

One of my clients, he tried ads for Facebook. He tried on Google. He kept losing money. I was like, hey, just focus on Google my business. And when he did the post, people were coming in talking about the coupon offer and everything. He's like, I didn't spend any money. I'm like, that's all from the post that you just did from your account?

That's wow. Dang. Is there. Could you use that for an online business or is that pretty much just brick and mortar?

You know what, I haven't tried it with brick and mortar. The only. Or if I was doing it for online business, maybe if it was like, I don't know, maybe I was thinking if you're like a marketing agency locally and you're trying to boost it that way, that definitely works. I've done it on my account but I've just, I've seen it really good with services, service based businesses with Google, my business because they're so aware that they need something right away so it aligns so much quicker. But I bet it could work. I just haven't experimented with that with agencies and everything.

Yeah, no, that makes more the way you defined it. There is a service or something that is in demand, maybe in a local area or something like that. Just syncing that up with Google my business. That's rad. I like that.

Good times. Yeah.

Yeah man. And what I like about that is it's leveraging Google's platform too, which is similar to what it seems like you focus on your content around now as well is kind of create something but really let the platforms kind of distribute that for you and get attention on all these other places.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I mean I'm sure we'll get into it but I really think like everything that I've done from the beginning to like now, it really just has to do with like observations. What are people looking for, what's the best system or tool for it and then like doubling down on that really organically. So.

Yeah, yeah, well let's. I mean you mentioned appsumo and I know you've done some work with VaynerMedia and you know, you've been in there, done some really cool stuff in their studios and. And kind of flip this whole model. But where. Where do you think we should start?

It sounds like you worked with. With Russell Brunson too, right?

Yeah.

So Russell, I only knew of him and that's when we were kind of on that path. My friend was really, really gung ho and really everything Russell. And then I just didn't understand when. When he was telling me when. Of course, when clickfunnels came out, I was like, nah, nah, I'm not feeling it. And I went the opposite way that I. He was always in the same ecosystem. But everything dealing with like, Noah in that section and then on it and that's that side. That. That's who I pretty much hanged out with or.

So what were you doing there? Was that all content type stuff? Did that get you in the game?

Yeah. So, like, I guess that's the biggest thing. Like the jump. After the gym, I was burned out and I was trying to figure out, like, what I was going to do next. And I was like, I know fitness. I know how to do certain content. I'm gonna just start trying to write and it's really wacky. But I ended up on a reality show at the Arnolds, and the CFO on it at the time saw me because I got top three and I said, hey, I would love to write for you. And Onnit had a magazine at the time, so I started writing for Onit.

Then what was this reality show? I'm curious, Arnold.

I've never heard the show.

Was the. Was it next? The great next America's. America's next great trainer. That's what it was. And the reason I know this is they filmed it all in one weekend at the Arnold. So, like the Arnold's in Columbus. I'm not sure if you. Are you familiar with it or.

No, no, I'm not.

No, no, no.

So it's like once a year, it's. It's basically everyone's on voids in Columbus, Ohio for 48 hours. And it's like one of the biggest events, like sporting events in the United States, but it's tens of thousands of people. There's thousands of events or hundreds of events. And basically you're in different sports. So Olympic weightlifting, powerlifting, all this stuff. And so the organizers of that wanted to do a reality show and pitch it to a major network. And so they're like, we're gonna get America's next great Trainer. Everyone from the US can apply. We're gonna pick a certain amount, and then you're gonna be on the show. So the guy that recorded or did my first commercial for my gym, I was like, listen, man, I need you to do a highlight reel of me so I can audition to be on the show. He did the cut for me, and I ended up on the show. And then there was tons of people. Like, one was Angelina Jolie's trainer and one guy that did the training for all the Walking Dead, and there ended up top three. And. And, yeah, so the show tanked, bombed, and they tried to sue, like, the Rock, because the Rock had a similar show on NBC and they shared the same agent. It was just. Yeah, but with that, I got all the connections. And because most in fitness, like, either, a lot of people are trying to be influencers. I knew a lot of people weren't writing at the time or trying to do both, but I had the notoriety of being top three. So I was like, I'll work for you. So I started writing for onit, and then I found out through Twitter who was writing for ESPN and those things. So then I started writing for ESPN about CrossFit and all that stuff.

Dude, I love that story. You kind of hacked your way into the conversation and into all these networks, these relationships. Obviously. I don't know if you preplanned that totally. But you seem pretty damn smart, so I think you did.

I try to be. I can't take all that credit. I mean, I just think it was. I was just trying to be if the opportunity was there. I just always tried to listen as much as possible. Like, how could I be of use? Because, listen, if you see me or if anyone see me, like, listen, I wasn't going to win that competition. I do not look strong. I do not look that part that they would want a winner. But I knew that if I was in the right situation, I could find a way to be helpful.

Right? Yeah. It sounds like you just place yourself in the right place. In a time where you think something could happen, good opportunities can come.

Yep, yep, yep.

That's rad, man. Yeah.

Yeah. So from there, it kind of, kind of spiraled. So started writing. I was a content writer for a couple magazines, and then I wanted to go into social media management because I was like, oh, this is going to be awesome. Like, this is my last stop. Found out. I hated it.

I found out how to curate content and figure out what people were doing, and I could test at a large volume because I was Writing for different magazines.

Right.

And then started that way. Yeah.

Interesting.

I want to talk about the content curation for a minute. So are you still doing a lot of content curation to this day?

Yeah, yeah. I usually am behind the scenes for certain brands. So, you know, there. There's this that we can talk about later, but basically there's a. There's a test, an assessment that I have them do some of, like a Myers Briggs test, but it aligns what kind of content that they should put out based on their personality type. So I have them do that. And then based on that, I used to ghostwrite or build out campaigns, but now I kind of just consult and say, hey, this is your personality type, this is your goals. Let's build out these campaigns or content around that before you launch.

Oh, that's interesting. Joe and I actually used to run a content marketing agency, but we were nowhere near as scientific about it as you are.

But what I'm taking away from his story, which is really cool, is you were getting paid to learn, and there's so many smart people that. And this is exactly. I'm not lumping ourselves into the smart category. You know what I mean by this? But that's pretty much what we were doing, is we experimented like crazy in that content marketing agency where our goals wasn't to just make a bunch of content out there for the sake of that, but we wanted to actually have conversions tied to that, grow an email list, get leads for the business, whatever it is, and it works.

Exactly.

And we're like, holy crap. And then we just would refine over time, and we're like, man, this is the best gig. We're getting paid to experiment because Matt and I sound similar to you. It's like we kind of get bored with doing the same thing all the time, and we know there's improvements to be had. So it sounds like you had that same idea.

Yeah. Now when I think of content curation, I mean, I'm not sure, we may have different definitions, but I think of you're basically going out and you're finding existing content, and you're just kind of putting it in front of your audience. Right. You're building an audience and you're leveraging other people's content and you're kind of that. That curator, essentially.

Right.

For other people's content. Is that. Is that sort of how you were doing it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. At the time, with social media, like, being a social media manager, I would. I would basically just do that. Right. So I would be Looking at either buds, Buzzsumo, I'd be on, you know, all these other different sites looking at what would be best for them and then, and then writing summaries or, or having them have their take on the content and then go from there.

Now can you explain a little bit about what the benefits of curating other people's content is? Just because I do think a lot of people listening and I fell into this camp a long time ago when I was first kind of understanding the whole content marketing game. But why would I go and share somebody else's content and you know, sort of put the spotlight on their brand instead of my brand? So what was your philosophy there?

Yeah, I think it's number one. It makes you look like the expert that you've taken the time to research all these things and you're bringing the cream of the crop to them. So it then it still elevates you even though it's not yours. You're like, hey, I've done all the heavy lifting. I brought this to you. I think you would really enjoy this. And I also think there's a portion of it it being very selfless and not promotion y type because you're like, hey listen, this is what I find cool. You can go and buy it from them or do whatever and you're just like kind of just goodwill sending it out into the world. So yeah, I think that's really powerful.

Yeah, you're kind of building trust. You're kind of showing your audience, hey look, I'm not just being completely self serving. I'm also, you know, showing you other stuff I think you would like. That really is not going to benefit me. And I think that builds up that trust of, of you know, what they share with me is good stuff. And then once you've shared a lot of good stuff then I think it actually boosts the value of your own stuff that you share.

Oh yeah, totally, totally, totally. It's kind of fun and I think like even I, I don't read a lot of email like newsletter like curating but I, I think about like the Hustle or Morning brewing the tech one. Like I really, I just love hearing from them and like anytime they ask me to do things like, like the Hustle got me with trends. I bought that because I was like, I love you guys. Like, you know, I'll buy that.

Yeah, yeah, no it's, those are, those are awesome. And that's, it's like you're building a platform in sharing and curating content because that's I mean, it's kind of like this podcast in a way. It's not like we're just doing all the talking. You know, we're bringing in our. The smartest people within our network and the folks that reach out to us and we highlight them.

Yeah. I mean, we're curating good interest people. That's exactly what a podcast is.

Yeah. So I like that, man. That's great. And, yeah, I know in terms of content in general, I mean, you have that systemized approach, and so I guess, where's a good place to start? I know you have this thing, the Gary vee, the model 2.0 that you've kind of flipped and did your own version of it. Would it be a good time to dig in or at least do a little overview of that?

Yeah, let's do it. I mean, yeah, yeah, let's. Let's talk about that. So, I mean, yeah, the thing with, like, Gary and this is, like, another thing, like hacking, like, so many people want to talk to Gary and be in his ecosystem, but a lot of people don't realize, like, how to get involved. So, like, that was my first, like, hack or into that world because no one pitches his younger brother AJ and so when they started vayner Sports, I was like, you know what? I'll never get to Gary. I think I can bring a lot of value. Let me try to hit up AJ and one YouTube video. Like, it was years ago. Maybe it was like, 2017, something like that. But Gary put out a phone number to call for VaynerSports, and that's the one thing. Like, my wife is always yelling, like, don't give this man a phone number. I called them every week for almost eight months before they let me do the interview with them. Wow.

Just persistence, man.

I love it. Yeah. So AJ was like, I don't. I get. I, I, I think AJ only has a few interviews. Like, one. Lewis House did one, like, back when he was, like, 21 or 20, and one other person. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna get him. So when we went to vayner Sports, like, that was the first iteration of the content market model that we proved. And, you know, we. We can go right into that content model.

Let's do it. Yeah, man, let's.

Let's.

Let's do the overview, and then I'm sure Joe and I will have a bunch of questions that we'll. We'll pick at with it. Yeah.

So, yeah, like, so Gary put out a couple years ago. It was the content model of how he takes long form content and then just chops into micro content and then, you know, distribute it. Distributes it on different platforms. Platforms, yeah.

There was actually a PDF that was kind of circulating. I mean, the PDF, I think, is like maybe three years old, but it was just recently circulating, like a month ago, and kind of went re viral again. And it was like. It was something like 62 Ways to Repurpose your existing content or something like that.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then he did like the Gary Vee challenge of it, to prove it and everything like that.

Right.

And basically I love that model. It was great and, and it works. But what I kept seeing was like over and over again, tons of people that were trying to do what he was doing.

They could not produce that much content continually. They might do it once and then they get burned out and then couldn't do it sustainably. And so with the 2.0 model, we basically put a section on top where we're IDing the type of content you're doing in purpose, and it's really structuring how you're going to be producing content while you're doing it for your company, and then layering in the same approach because now it's quantifiable, you can see what's going on and now you have a clear existence of why you're creating that content instead of just like doing a shotgun approach and just like blasting out content and then trying to reassess later. It's good in theory, and it's good if someone just needs to get, you know, get going or promote or, you know, just motivate yourself to do something. But I found that it just wasn't sustainable. And then they're, you know, kind of spiraling after a couple weeks or months of doing it.

Yeah, no, that makes sense because it's easy to get overwhelmed when, you know, Gary's great at just, you know, he's the whole document things you're doing, you know, so the. The kickoff's really simple. It's just like, yeah, everyone has an iPhone. You can kick it off and record something. Yeah. But then it's like the stuff after the fact that unless you have a system or an intention, like you're saying here, then it's very easy to kind of just get derailed and feel like you have to do everything all the time, every day.

Yeah, well, Gary's also a machine too. Gary. Gary makes things sound very, very simple. But then in practice, when you start to do them, you're like, oh, wow, this is A lot like, he had. He had some process for how to. How to gain traction on. I don't know if it was Instagram or Twitter, but one of those where you go in and you search out like 10 hashtags and you leave 10 comments on 10 posts off of 10 hashtags every day. And, like, you do the math on it, and pretty quickly you're like, okay, so I'm going to be making a hundred comments on 100 different pieces of content every day. In theory, it sounds like a really simple concept, but when you start trying to do that, you might do it one or two days in a row and go, this is cool. And then you realize, oh, I'm spending three hours a day just responding to stuff on social media. So he makes things sound simple and his concepts are simple, but in practice, you're like, damn, that's actually quite a bit of work.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the thing where it's kind of like that disconnect where a lot of times people are like, yeah, I can definitely do it. I'm motivated. Let's do it. Let's do it. And then they do the numbers and they're like, oh, no, no. And the thing that we did with this content model when we did it and we did the showcase with them, is we proved that we could do this model and it was just me and my videographer. So we went through it, we did it in real time, and we proved it. We created over. Was it 19 pieces of content under 48 hours. And to show that it's possible and high quality. And then again, we had intention and purpose of what we did with it next. So, yeah, yeah, do you want me to go through it and.

Yeah, let's do it.

Well, was that thing you're referencing really quick, that 19 pieces of content? Because I know you did a lot of stuff in the sports field, I think, to prove this as well. Right? This whole.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, tell you the truth, and that was kind of funny because, you know, even so, before we even we did this project with Vayner, and in this capacity beforehand, we always kind of did this, me and my videographer, with clients anyway. And that's why I like Gary. I'm like, man, that makes a lot of sense like this. A lot of things we're doing. Of course, we are nowhere near his stature, nor do people care about me. I do, I understand that. But yet I was like, you know, this makes a lot of sense. And I think there's tweaking to be involved. And this is a side point, but like, this really started when I was a college DJ at the time. And one of my, the videographer I was with, he got me onto this university radio station. So before there was any sophisticated systems, he would use his GoPro and cut all of his episodes after we DJed live, then he would repurpose them and cut them and do micro reaction videos of songs. This is like 2011, something like this online. And then we just knew how to create micro content off of long form and so brought that into fitness and how we did that with a couple athletes. And then when we went into content marketing, we brought those same processes when we were working with different clients.

Gotcha. Yeah, dude. 2011, doing all this. This is wild. Way ahead of the game. Yeah.

Let'S dig into it though. Let's outline the model and then we can see what we can chat about further on there.

Yeah, definitely. So. And of course all the listeners will have access to all this, so you can see it. But it's basically we're looking at a content funnel. So at the very top, it's identifying the types and purposes of what you're trying to do with your content. And with that, finding the purpose, we're trying to figure out, you know, do people ask for a certain type of content? What feels the most natural? What has. Have you had success before? And that kind of allows us to kind of like double down on using something that's going to work before you even go into this content creation. And then from there we're talking about what are your goals. So are you trying to get brand awareness, authority or impact?

Gotcha. Okay. And that starts at the very top, then the very first piece of content you create.

Exactly. And a lot of times it's just sometimes you're just asking people or sometimes you're just asking a friend. But the thing is, when you're doing that, you're recording everything. So you're like, hey, you know what? I'm thinking about becoming, doing something with going on ig. I'm already in fitness. I'm seeing if people really care. Like, do you care about me? Do you think this is a good idea? And you're just recording real time how they're talking. Because I really think it's important that I think it's so much people try to make their language sophisticated and not just copy how people really speak. So that's why I'm like, just record what people say when you're trying to brainstorm.

Yeah, no, that was a big lesson for this podcast too. So that goes for any form of content. It's like, just be you. It's tough, but just be you and document like you said. That's the key piece.

Yeah. And then from there we have this thing. We didn't put it in the model, but it's basically we double down on your personality type. So I really think there's. When you're trying to create content, you're going to fall into three different kind of category types. But those three categories are going to tell you what type of content you're gonna do. Right? Like, so some people, you probably hear it, I'm sure you hear it all the time. Like tons of people. Like, man, I gotta start a podcast. And like, like some people, I'm like, hey, so do you like talking to people? He's like, no, like, I hate people. Like, I'm like, well, maybe we shouldn't start with a podcast.

Maybe you should be a blogger and hide out.

And so like the personality test shows, like, do you, what do you, do you like interacting with people? Do you like doing that? And usually we find out either you do like the interview style or maybe you like teaching or maybe you like being by yourself. And you're really good at deep diving a subject and going super, super deep and just documenting. So we picked one of those categories from that type and we're like, what do you find natural? If you're a talker and you love talking to people, let's just do interviews. And we're going to do it just like a late night show. So we have a prompt where we do this with streamers on Twitch a lot. But we create their program just like it's a talk show and you're talking to the audience and that's your pillar content. We tell you to do it five times straight. Record it, don't analyze it, just stick with the format. After the fifth time, we'll look at it, what people said, how people are doing it, and then we repurpose it into micro content after we see the traction points of your pillar content.

First of all, the quiz, is this something that's proprietary to you or is this a quiz that's publicly available that people can take?

I can send it to you guys too. Yeah, it's just basically after, after doing. I think I had it over like 250 different discovery calls over time. Like I just looked at, okay, what are what the common denominator, like what is what is happening over and over again. And then I Just repurposed it as a quiz use outgrow. Co graded it based on their. Their. By their question, you know, by their answers of the questions. And then it spits out what. What category they are. Gotcha.

So, but it wasn't. It wasn't an existing quiz. This is something that you developed, basically. Gotcha. Cool. Cool. And so the three different types that you mentioned, you mentioned people that like to do, like, podcasts and audio, people that like to sort of deep dive on content. What was the three? I know, I kind of caught those two.

Oh, yeah. So it's the showman and then it's the. Wait, hold on. Showman, presenter, and then explorer.

Okay, and how would you define each of those three?

Yeah, so the showman, you like being in front of people. You like being able to be in the limelight and just really jovial and a good connector, basically. And if you.

That's a Joe.

Okay. Yeah, that's me.

And with that one, it's like, okay, we'll do something like the late night talk show type where you're just the, you know, you're just there, you're guiding the conversation. People love it and people, you know, are attracted to your personality. And so that's the showman. The presenter is. You kind of like being in front of people, but you really thrive when you're being informative and you're teaching and you're in your element. And that's the presenter.

So that's me.

And then the last one is the explorer. Like, you don't like a lot of people. You like. You like going into the wilderness by yourself. You like finding out something about yourself or about a system, and you're that explorer.

Gotcha. Okay.

Love it. Okay.

And that's like Shannon on our team, probably, maybe.

So. Yeah. Get the trifecta.

There you go. Yeah, I'm just trying to relate it, but I mean, it probably not. Isn't a complete crossover.

Right.

Yeah.

I'm sure the quiz is a lot more accurate too.

I'm sure there's a spectrum.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. So. And there's. I'm glad you. Yeah, so there is a spectrum. So where you have a major and a minor too. So where it's like, these are your natural components, but these are also. We give them three ideas to try different formats so then you're not stuck where you're like, oh, you told me I was a showman. I'm supposed to do this. Like, this sucks.

I hate podcasts.

Exactly. Well, keep doing it, Keep doing it. Kind of because like, say, for instance, part of the showman, one might be like you're doing the late night show. The other one is you might do really well with partnering with a bigger brand. And that kind of helps with you because you're putting yourself on a bigger platform so you get that larger effect to touch more people that's outside of your network. Plus, you're really good at relating and promoting a product or service you really care deeply about because you're genuine and people love your personality. It's going to fit a lot easier than the explorer who hates talking about things and trying to promote and feels like that's selling out. Just do it. If you're the showman.

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense, actually. Yeah, that's powerful, man. All right, cool. So after that, so you have that whole type and purpose. So it seems like that's probably the most key, important part of this whole content funnel that you have here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then once you do the personality type, it's going to fall in order of just start creating content based on that. Again, we're relating. What's your goal at the end of it? Because we're going to reevaluate. Are we close to the goal? Are we even in the ballpark? Let's see what happens, happens. And then afterwards it's based on traction and we have different call to actions to see based on. Are people resharing this? Are they trying to talk back to you? Are people like raising their hand? They're like, shut up, take my money. I don't know what you're about to sell, but I want it. We quantify all those things and then we repurpose and create micro content to realign with that goal. And when we do smaller pieces of content, people are busy, people are all over the place. Then we can really see the highlights, what happens and then see what happens with that.

Got it. So you're looking for the signals from the documented content, little things from the call to actions that you have there. And that's from the vlogs or Q&As, keynotes, podcasts, whatever, blogs.

Are you looking at a cheat sheet?

No.

I'm not going to give it all away. People need to get it. But no, yeah, from there it makes a lot of sense. Sense, because this is where I think we could probably do a lot better with our long form content is we get a lot of feedback, you know, and we. When we ask for feedback as well. So that's part of the call to actions on these podcasts and then with that repurposing and then like just clipping out. What do you say? Just because it's all stuff for social media. So like a minute long clip here and there or a quote, something like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it kind of. This kind of goes back into the. We talk about like of course, you know, go with what. Where people are. Right, so, so yeah, you could go with ig, but I think there's certain. Depending on the profession, you already know where people are hanging out. We do a lot with streamers. Subreddits are huge, especially League of Legends. It's insane. So you have to understand where is your target audience and where do they communicate the most with and then start planting those seeds there.

Got it. So basically figure out where they're all hanging out online. Create some content that pairs up with that channel and post it to be consistent.

So just, just a sort of a sort of recap of what we've covered. So you kind of take an assessment, you figure out what type of content creator that you are, you lean into that, you start creating that kind of content in long form content, that's your pillar content and then you break that content up and you share it on social media. Which essentially drives people back to the pillar long form content.

Right, exactly. And, and we even start with like the repurpose or like you have a really good clip. We really ask people to either have a small CRM or just a list of. Think of 10 to 15 people that you can not. I don't want you to blast this out, write real emails to explain what this content is and if this is good for them and just send it to them and see the response. That has been a huge impact because then they respond back or sometimes they refine the message, why they like it, they have certain content or like copy that. Then you can use to then put it on blast when you send it out to all of your networks too.

Gotcha. So you're saying use something like, I don't know, like a contactually or some sort of one on one email communication tool, but something that kind of reminds you to stay in touch with some of these people on a personal level, not like an email broadcast level.

Exactly.

Yep. That's good. Yeah. Because I mean you're a systems guys. So my question is. Yeah, how do we, how do we make sure this is a sustainable model for someone? So what are some pointers that you could lean into that of how to stay consistent and not burn out doing.

This just focus on one platform, really, and focus on one type of content that you like creating and that makes you feel good and just do that. Do not worry about anything else.

Yeah, no, I like that. That's what I like about all this is like, you lean into your personality the biggest. And yeah, if you're this a person that's not super system oriented, like, I'm different from Matt. Matt would probably crank out content like a madman consistently every damn day following the same exact schedule. Whereas, like, I would probably like to explore a little bit, but also be consistent in the right channels that fit. And of course, that goes back, I guess, to the purpose and what you're learning. You're always kind of communicating with folks and getting feedback, ideally with all this. Right, right.

So you can keep refining and once you have that, because that's the whole thing. Like, you know, and I've always like, I love teachable. I love all these different platforms. But like, that's what really made me upset, like when I was like figuring this out because it would always be based on percentages. Like, oh, you just get this many subscribers and this is what's going to happen. I'm like, well, guess what, it's been five years and I'm still broke.

I wish someone had just told me, like, hey, just focus on these basics, see if people like it and then pivot or change based on reaction. That's.

Yeah. No, I totally agree. I think one of our biggest aha moments of the last, like three years was we were trying to do a podcast. We were trying to have a written blog, we were trying to run a YouTube channel, we were trying to keep up with Instagram, we were trying to be on Facebook, you know, like the lit. I could keep on going. I won't, but I can. We were trying to do it all. And when we decided, let's just lean into the podcast, let's just go all in on the podcast, we're going to record eight episodes a month minimum. We're going to curate this content or we're going to, sorry, not curate, repurpose this content. Spread it everywhere, but just totally focus on the podcast. We'll monetize through sponsorships and affiliate marketing. But this is it. This is like the sort of tunnel vision that we're creating for ourselves. That's when we probably saw the biggest growth in our business. It's when we weren't spread thin, we were just laser focused.

Exactly. Yeah. That's the key. And it's so hard because everything looks shiny or Everyone else is saying, like, they're crushing it using these other things. So it really is tough. But yeah, that's it.

And when you have a podcast that magnifies, because now we have eight people a month telling us, hey, here's the next thing you should test.

That's where the no filter needs to come in a little bit sometimes.

Yeah, I mean, we've gotten to a point where we love hearing all the ideas and we love sharing all the ideas, but we have to put our own filters on and go, that's an amazing idea. What you're talking about is actually super relevant because it's literally what we do. But for most people that come on our podcast and they're teaching us the latest, greatest YouTube trick, we're like, this is amazing. And we love talking about it. But then, you know, 10 minutes after the call is over, we go, that was a really cool technique. Hopefully some people out there use it. Not for us, but hopefully some people use it. You know, we've had to like really kind of, of amp that up because we get really excited by a lot of these, these things. I, I did have a follow up question about that whole process though. Once, once you create your, your pillar content and then you break it up and you repurpose it into smaller chunks, how are you determining where, where to curate it to? Because you mentioned Reddit, I think you mentioned Twitch. There's obviously Facebook, Instagram. I mean, there's so many different places you can potentially share this stuff. How do you flesh out where the best places to share this stuff is?

Yeah.

Basically I look at a couple different things. Number one, if you're really deep into the scene or whatever your industry, you should know those deeper places where people really are. If it's a Facebook group, if it's Quora, wherever it is, if you're new or you're still trying to figure it out, find out an influencer that you like or someone that that's in that space and look at what platform they're on. Primarily because everyone has one primary, like, platform. And then start just doing reconnaissance missions to see what they're doing.

Yeah, that's smart. Because every niche is going to be different. Like my wife's in the wedding space. Instagram is fricking massive for. And she gets all of her leads. We're on Instagram, Crickets. We have no action at all. We're just like, oh, okay, that's not our platform. At least not right now.

Exactly, I think. And that's like a big thing. Like I hear so many people in tech, they're like, oh, we gotta crush it on Instagram. I'm like, yeah, but like, who in tech is really crushing on Instagram right now?

Yeah, it's true. Yeah.

I think you should just end it. We gotta crush it and we gotta find out where we can crush it, but we gotta crush it.

I don't really care where the crushing it is coming from, as long as we're crushing it. Exactly.

You're right, man. No, I like that. Doing some reconnaissance, dude. Just do your homework, basically. Get research and don't just follow the shiny object just because someone else is chatting about it a lot. Because they're loud and beating their chest.

Yeah, man. So I like, oh, you know, after. After this content, actually, just as part of the whole method. I don't know if this is even part of the method. How do you. Is it like, how do you typically have people direct attention from a social media network or these pieces of content? Like, what's a call to action? I guess a next step after the distribution of content? What does it look like?

Yeah, so I think it kind of depends on goals, but usually if I'm starting from scratch and I'm really trying to, like, it depends if I'm trying to launch or do something with products or if I'm doing brand awareness. But out of everything, it's still, I need them to contact me or have a conversation with me or if I have a team, my team. Because I'm trying to get. Learn more about the people that raise their hands and that are converted to actually talk to me afterwards.

Got it.

That's the main thing.

Yeah. I mean, I think sort of what Joe was getting at a little bit. I'm interpreting it myself. But, you know, when I go and share something on Facebook, right. If I'm sharing a link back to my site, algorithmically, Facebook does not want to get as much distribution because there's a link. Unless there's a lot of traction on that post, then a lot of times the links will get shared. But. But for the most part, when you post links, it gets a little less reach when you go on something like Reddit. I know you mentioned Reddit earlier. The call. I love Reddit. Reddit's my favorite platform to use. It's not. It's not anywhere close to our best platform for bringing people back to us. It's my favorite platform to use on a daily basis, though. But what I'll notice if I share something on Reddit and then try to link back to our website, instant downvotes, it just disappears into nothing.

Right.

So how do we actually, when we break up this content and we're putting it out there, what are some ways to, you know, sort of push the odds in our favor that it's actually going to get traction back to our business?

Oh, good times. Okay, so basically this is like a separate thing, but we have something called like a PR tour. So it's, it's very similar to like how we view it. Almost like if a comedian was going to different clubs or if a band's on tour, we tear out how we're going to position it with either fellow brands or other brands that I know that want this type of content. And I'm going to reach out to them to amplify the message for them to get in front of them, their audience. And then they're having a very specific call to action that I want them to do. Either signing up for discovery call, signing up to download something, a freebie, whatever, for them to enter the funnel. And I'm really leaning into like the halo effect.

Gotcha.

Okay. Yeah, it's capturing them started communication somehow and then extend the, extend it from there and follow up.

Yeah, I mean even if, I mean this might just be my limited thinking. I mean like I'm looking for quality, so I'm looking for someone that will already knows me, that will co sign me to talk about me. And, and it's now going to be received by someone that feels like, wow, this is a good opportunity. I want to convert and I want to do something with them. So I'm looking for really, I'm trying to like measure quality, outreach and everything. And I use different things. I use organic but then I use stuff like Q Promote. That was pretty crazy. That did really well. So I use half like organic and then I use also processes for promotion purposes.

Okay, now you just mentioned Q Promote and I'm actually, I'm kind of curious because we actually bought Q Promote maybe two years ago or three years ago on an appsumo deal and I think we got a whole bunch of credits through it and we boosted some content or pointed some content. I actually don't totally know how Q Promote works.

Yeah, I forgot.

I was just like, oh, okay. I give them links and they send me traffic somehow. Like honestly I didn't totally get it, but I was like, this sounds like it's cheap enough, let's try it. And it didn't really do much for us, so I'm kind of curious how, how you leverage that tool. Or maybe, maybe you could actually explain a little bit better how it works too, because I don't totally know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so yeah, Q Promote works where they are having curated people that either have a larger audience and you can go on there and they're basically already sharing your stuff that's already curated. So the first part is I'm going to be trying to create the best kind of headlines and descriptions that people would care about at a larger scale. Like so, for example, people for the most part do not care about me, but tons of people know about Grant Cardone, Russell or Gary. So I'm already going to have content that I already know has wider appeal, but it's still niche down enough for my target audience to know who they are and then they're going to be interested to click over to see what happens.

Got it.

Yep.

You're just trying to capture that attention at a wider clip and I guess Q Promote, I mean, that's what's perfect. If you get too small and granular. Maybe that's what we were doing wrong. Probably. Yeah, it was like, hey, go check out our little ebook here. It was like, people are like, I don't care.

Yeah, I find that, yeah, I find that Q Promote if you're, if you're tying it with a bigger thing, like for example.

We work. So there was one client that I was working with, he was in the space to help.

You know, that type of. Basically you could create your own independent type ones. And he was very critical even before what happened with WeWork. And I was like, you need to start putting this content out now. Because it was topical when they were, you know, the valuation and all that stuff. He got huge amount of traffic because then he brought something that a lot of people know about and then they're interested at the surface level, maybe like solution aware, problem aware. Then it was to him that he's talking about it and now he's converting them with something that's very topical of mine.

Makes sense. It's a timely event happening and you're kind of pairing up something that you can offer.

Yeah, I think in retrospect, probably the issue we were having with Q Promote is we were probably trying to drive traffic to something that was a little too self serving versus just quality content, you know, so in retrospect, that's probably what we were doing wrong. Now do you do any paid amplification, you know, Facebook ads or Google Ads or Twitter ads or Reddit ads or any. That kind of stuff?

You know what I've tried doing them all.

It's just so bad.

I do it and I'm like, oh, this makes a lot of sense. I can really. Oh, wait, I'm spending this much. Well, maybe I should just do organic. I don't know. Maybe every single time I've done it. And, like, I've done it with my own money, I've done it now. It just doesn't work at the same rate as maybe because I'm not patient enough. But I do no paid anything. It's just organic. And it's finding out who knows who person, like, how can I help them? And then it's all organic. That's it.

It makes sense, man. I mean, because, like, I lean a lot more into organic types of traffic, creating content. And I would argue that you're actually more patient because it's organic traffic. But I get what you're saying is patient with, like, budgets and targets and stuff like that. Because Matt is just a master at all the paid stuff stuff. And that's, like, foreign to me. I'm just like, no, I'm comfortable just, like, talking a lot and then doing brute force.

I just love traffic, period. I don't discriminate.

That's awesome.

Yeah, man. Well, cool. I don't want to. Yeah, we've gone a little over the time that we promised we would spend with you. How can people grab this? Your Gary vee model, the 2.0.

Yeah. So there is going to be a special freebie. We set up a full page for this podcast. So I will share that link. It's a couple dashes, so I kind of forgot, but it's gonna be like freebie dot, like, dash, like household flowchart. But it will be connected there. And then two, because we kind of talked about the personality test. I'll add the personality test on that page as well. So people can take that personality test, see what they get, and then. Then they know what they can do when they start creating content. Content.

Great.

Awesome.

And we'll link that in the show notes. So everyone listening, check out the show notes and you'll get those links.

Yeah.

Sweet, Matt.

Cool. So do you. Do you have any books that you find yourself going back to often or recommending to others often?

You know, there's a couple I really like. I forget his name. I think Deep Work.

Oh, Cal Newport.

I think so. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is Cal. Yeah.

I love Deep Work Creativity Inc. The Pixar book.

Oh, yeah. Lassiter. Was that.

I don't know that one.

Yeah. Well, he was the guy who basically ran Pixar.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know if he was the one who wrote the book, but I think it's about him.

Yeah, John Lasseter. I feel so bad because I mention it all the time, but yeah, I should know who that is. Oh, my wife is helping me out with this. I can't read that far.

Oh, Ed Catmull. Catmull. Oh, dude, I botched it.

Well, that's nice of her.

Thank you. I was like, thanks so much. And then the last one is, it's Mark Echo's book, unlabel selling you without selling out.

Oh, wow, that's a new one.

That was a couple years ago. That was really weird. That was the same time, like Skillshare partnered with Gary and Mark Eko. And I got that book because I got the course and I keep going back and back and back. That's probably one of my favorite books. And then he did a Skillshare class and he's like, listen, I go to all these conferences. I do all this stuff. I'm gonna teach you what you need to do with your marketing based off of The Biggie song 10 Crack Commandments. And I still have my clients go watch that video.

Wow. Dude. Okay, I'm gonna pick up that book then. Yeah. It's impactful. And you're, you're doing the same stuff we are with content, similar kind of veins. So that's a no brainer then.

I love it. Oh, man. There's a bunch of stuff that I wanted to chat with you about that we didn't even get to yet. So maybe in the future we could try to get around two on the books. I wanted to talk about some of your tech stats and what the toolkit is and what a hackathon is and all sorts of other random topics that we didn't get into.

I didn't even read this, but I'm like, you're freaking certified lean, six sigma black belt. Like, holy crap.

That'S gnarly.

How many lifetimes have you lived?

No, I'm just kidding.

Yeah, I don't know anymore.

Yeah. And you've been at this for three and a half years or so you said. So I don't even know what's next for you, but I know it's going to be good.

So we'll link up the special link in the show notes that you're going to give us. But what's your main sort of root website just in case somebody's out and about and they you know, they want to go check out something right now.

Yeah. So you just go to brand factory inc.com and. Yeah, inc. So brand factoryinc.com and then you can see more about me and contact me if this is a good fit for people. Yeah, sweet.

Very cool. And we'll link up those special bonuses in the show notes. And doc, thank you so much for hanging out and spending time with us. We went a couple minutes over, but we appreciate everything you've taught us today. This was a fun conversation.

Yeah, man.

Likewise, guys. Thanks so much.

Yeah, have a good one. Hey, hey, hey. Thank you for listening to that episode. This is Joe Fear. I'm sure you probably already knew that, and Matt is not here right now, but I'm pretty sure he enjoyed the episode just as much as you and I did because, you know, he went into the production of kind of making that thing right along with me. So thank you very much. And I want to give a quick shout out to our buddies over at Easy Webinar. These guys have been supporting us for a while, a long time. And Casey Zieman is just a super good guy all around. He's actually been on the show before. He's the founder of Easy Webinars. So if you look up Casey Zeman on any podcast platform you're listening to, go check him out. Go check out his backstory, what he's all about. You can learn a lot about webinars as well. And right now, Easy Webinar, these guys are actually hooking you up with a great trial. It's a completely free trial to test out their software. So soup to nuts, check it all out and see if it's a good fit for you. If you go to easywebinar.com hustle, that's H U S T L E If you didn't know how to spell hustle, there you go. So if you go to EasyWebinar.com hustle you can go grab a free trial. And EZ webinar literally lives up to its name. It's super simple. I mean, super easy. And it does all the stuff that you're looking for in any kind of thing with webinars, I mean, they literally cover every single type of webinar you possibly can do. So from live to automated to scheduled at specific times and all these crazy features in between, can't even list them all out. I'll be here way too long. They give you a ton of advanced analytics. What's working, what's not during your webinar based off all these actions. You'll see who attended, how long they stayed, if they clicked the offer or if they didn't. Basically, you're gonna make more money and you're gonna work less with this thing and you're gonna create better relationships with the folks that are listening. Cause it's a good experience. You want to give that good experience along with some great content, of course, and a killer offer if that's what you got for them. So go try it out yourself. Go check out easywebinar.com hustle. That's easywebinar.com hustole. Alrighty. So that is the end of this episode. Thank you so much for listening to this episode, enjoying it. Hopefully you did. I'm pretty sure you did, if you lasted this long. And go check out Easy Webinar when you get the chance. And we will talk to you next time. Bye Bye.

Thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they like, laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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