Dr. Steve Ruden — A Science-Backed Exercise Can Rewire Your Brain

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. What's up, everyone? Welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. This is Matt Wolfe.

Hello there.

That's Joe Fear saying hello there.

That's right.

And we actually have a co host again today. We brought back our good friend Marc Zicostar Rubio to help us interview this guest.

I was just thinking it would be kind of funny to, like, get him to pre record his name so I could splice that in there, like Marc Sacasta Rubio.

But do we have him saying his name in, like, the past episodes?

I'm sure we could find it, but. So maybe. Maybe this will be edited. Maybe this won't.

Well, the thing. No, it won't. Here's the thing. Marx Acosta Rubio is. He's a good buddy of ours, and he's got a lot of really cool connections and guests. And you will hear him again. He will definitely be a co host on more episodes in the future. But we asked him to join us on this episode because today we're Talking to Doc, Dr. Steve Rudin, one of the founders of the concept of havening, which is like. How would you describe Havening?

Well, Havening, I don't even want to, really, because Dr. Rudin gave a great explanation, but essentially.

It'S these very. He calls them electroceuticals. So if you think about pharmaceuticals, it took me a second to actually understand this. But he's creating these touches on your body in very specific places. There's three spots we'll get into that can help you essentially lessen any anxiety you might have or traumatizing experience or really anything that you can imagine that holds you back in life could be really bad sleep. Maybe there's something that's stopping that somehow.

Yeah. And so this was a very new concept to us. Joe and I were not familiar with havening before being introduced to Dr. Rudin. So we asked Marc Sacasta Rubio to come join us because he knows Havening. He's done havening. He knows a lot of people that have amazing results with it. He's had his own amazing results with it. So he had experience in actually using this technique. So we wanted to bring a guest in who had good experience with this technique and help us with this interview. So you will notice in this episode that Joe and I talk from time to time, but this really is sort of an interview between Marx and Dr. Rudin talking about this havening technique. And then Joe and I are kind of jumping in, adding our own commentary and adding questions from time to time. But, you know, Marx does a great job of leading Dr. Rudin down this path of helping you understand what this havening thing is.

Yeah. And it's enlightening because, yeah, most of the time Matt and I were just like, we were the students. We are the students, and we'll ask questions where they kind of fit there. But at the same time, I think a big thing when you're listening to this, there's a lot of science. So just make sure you're engaged there, especially towards the beginning, because there's definitely some terms that you probably never used, like electric electroceutical is one of them. And he'll explain that. Dr. Rudin will. But at the same time, just think about how you can apply this technique after you understand the science, because that is key to seeing why this is important. But think about how you can apply this in your life and think about a prompt or something that you can use in your day to day life. If you are noticing you're getting a little stressed out or you're flustered, or you're just, you know, whenever your wife or your husband talks to you and you feel like you just like snap all the time, there's probably a reason for that. There's definitely a reason for that. So think about those times when that pops up and you can actually use this technique. So it's extremely effective and very actionable stuff. Yeah. And it's something that high achievers use. So you could definitely apply it here.

All right, let's just jump on over and let these guys explain it.

Enjoy. Hey, Steve, thanks for hopping on the show with us here.

My pleasure. Pleasure to be here.

And we have our trifecta. So we have Mark's acosta Rubio back. How you doing?

Doing great, bud. How are you guys doing?

We're awesome. This is always this when we can kind of pair up here and then bring in one of your friends and mentors and someone that you follow. It's always a. It's a cool conversation.

Well, the three co host dynamic is always fun because we all three of us kind of approach question and questions from completely different angle. So it's always fun to see the different approaches of how we tackle these conversations.

Yeah, well, you guys ask the questions, I throw the grenades.

So what you're saying is we do the soft pitch underhand throws and you throw the fastballs. Got it.

I just Want to see who's going to jump on the grenade.

But, you know, we're the nice guys in the room.

It's going to be amazing because Steve is an incredible guy, super fascinating, great history. And him and his brother has developed this psychosensory, therapeutic, affirmational, super cool approach called havening. So you guys do your thing and let's see what shows up.

Yeah, well, I'm going to ask you guys, maybe, Marx, you are better, but how is the best way to present this? Because, you know, in all. In all, transparency, Matt and I have not experienced havening, other than what you've shown us, which are arm strokes and some, you know, face techniques there.

Well, I think. I think the best way to do it is to let Steve himself tell the history of how. Of how this came about, you know, why it happened and where it is today. And, you know, let him explain. I mean, he is one of the co founders. I mean, you can't get closer than him.

Yeah, let's make it happen. So, Steve, let's. Let's take us through that journey.

Okay. Well, I have been blessed to have had a partner in life before birth. And I have an identical twin brother. And he and I from time to time do projects together.

So about 2004, he calls me up and says, I gotta tell you a story.

One of my friends named Paul McKenna called me up and said, have you heard about tapping? And my brother goes, no. And he says, well, you should look it up. It's a guy named Roger Callahan. Then the book is Tapping the Healer Within. So of course my brother goes, reads the book, and the next day he comes into the office and says to anyone around, does anyone have a phobia? And one of his doctors, he's an internist, and one of his doctors says, yes, funny you should say I have a cat phobia. Well, he applies the.

TFT to this doctor, and lo and behold, the cat phobia disappears.

And my brother said to himself, hmm, this is interesting. And he then went around and treated everybody in the office within the next hour and a half.

All with the same results.

Different phobias, I would assume. Right.

Well, right.

Yeah.

Anyway, so he said, let me go look in literature and see what this is about. Those looks in the literature, nada, Nothing, he says, that's interesting. There must be a Western, because TFT and EFT we could talk about in a minute. Involve meridians and more of a qi flow concept, a body that biobalancing concept. And havening is more on a Western model of neurochemistry.

Neuroelectricity and a whole wide variety of understanding how the interplay of the brain and limbic system, which is our survival system, interplay to create our behavior. So 2004, my brother and I talk every night for five to seven years. Our wives are not happy, but.

And we're talking three hours a night, every night. Whereas where he's doing a lot of research, we're talking it over, we're trying to formulate it.

And.

Eventually after much trial and tribulation, I would say around 2008, my brother starts to write the book the Past is Always Present.

So Doc, let me pause real quick there just to interject something for the listeners that don't know. Paul McKenna is probably Europe's most famous self help guru, hypnosis guy, and he was a patient of your brother, is that correct?

I can't answer that.

Okay, well, fair enough. Well, anyway, they knew each other and so Paul McKenna, you know, he's been doing hypnosis, NLP and all this stuff and now he's a big proponent of havening because of what Steve is going to continue to tell us now. So I just wanted to let the audience know who Paul McKenna was. Doc.

Cool. Yeah.

Okay, so what is happening? The reality is, as far as what we see, it's literally a breakthrough concept in how our mind, body, brain continuum works. Now that's a big statement.

Yeah.

So if we look a little historically, what we've had existing for health and wellness in general is we've had.

Medications to help people, we've had surgery to help people, and we have psychotherapeutics to help people. This adds another dimension in the sense that we are harnessing our senses and the use of our sense and in particular the use of touch to allow the body to heal itself without extrinsic factors such as medication, talk therapy or surgery.

So how is that possible? So what did you guys, first of all, how is it possible? And what did you guys uncover? Because you've got this thought field therapy and then eft, tap, tap, tap, meridian language patterns, you know, phobia goes away, your brother goes. That's kind of odd. There's got to be a logical explanation for it. You guys do research and then what did you uncover actually happens in the brain or what do we think happens?

Well, I think I would say that the model that we've developed has proven itself hundreds of thousands of times correct already. So we have a pretty good feeling as to the model. And I'll try To explain this in very.

Clear terms. So even person who doesn't have a lot of experience in neuroscience and things like that can understand it. And you guys can chime in if you don't understand what I'm going to say.

Okay, sure, go for it.

So the brain and the body are electric, chemical and magnetic vessels. Specifically, we'll talk about the brain.

So how does the brain receive input? It receives input from the five senses. Taste, touch, sound, hearing and vision. These senses come in as electrical chemical elements, mainly electrical, and then they're transduced into electrochemical signals. So if I am.

Seeing a pretty sunset, the image comes on my retina in terms of those photons. It gets transduced or created into an electrochemical response which goes to the part of the brain which interprets it, which gives you a sensation. So far so good.

Yeah.

Yes.

Now what happens if this sensation is.

A threat freak out mode?

And if this threat is sufficient to cause an internal change in your brain so that it will always remember that threat moving forward? Very valuable thing that the brain can do. So anytime you come up and across something that is a threat that is even similar, your brain will go, okay, watch out, there's something may be bad happening here.

So docs, are you saying so in terms of threat, it can be both external and internal, Right. It could be based on how we perceive it or maybe an image we make of ourselves or internal dialogue. It doesn't have to be something we see. Right. It could be a variety of different inputs. Correct.

I mean it could be epigenetic.

Fair enough. Right. Okay. And it could also be depending, because two people see the same thing, one freaks out, one doesn't.

That has to do with resilience and vulnerability. But we could talk about that in a moment.

Just real quickly, what does epigenetic mean?

Epigenetic means it means altering gene expression. So you have a gene that expresses, let's say.

Your movement of your bowel and then you have an event or the gene somehow modifies it and it creates another circumstance for your bowel. And then you may develop IBS because of this irritable bowel syndrome. So, but so we in Havening understand now that when a threat which is entered into the mind, body, brain system enters into, is transduced into an electrochemical signal which goes to the thinking part of the brain as well as the part of the brain that responds to fight and flight. So we can be safe.

And that's the limbic system, right?

That is the core, the limbic system.

Under a specific set of Circumstances, the brain sets off an electric wave called the gamma wave. This interacts with another body part in the brain called the amygdala. Because of the neurochemistry and neuro electricity, it permanently plants on the amygdala a red flag. This red flag now remains there permanently to make sure that if you ever come across something even similar to that, you better be prepared to run or fight. And it creates those neurochemicals in your system that are preparing your body. So adrenaline and things like dopamine and cortisol, these are the things that the body prepares when you're presented with these threats.

And so, doc. So the limbic system, which I think is the oldest part of the brain, I think, what is it, 10, 20 million years old? It's a defense mechanism that it's evolved to. To keep us safe.

Right?

Right. Put it another way, it's our survival mechanism.

Right. And then it encodes that meaning. It uses the amygdala and gamma and all this fun stuff to say, hey, look, we're gonna make this an automatic response now that we believe it to be a threat, so that you are safe and you can take appropriate action. The problem is we don't live in the savannah anymore. Is that correct?

Well.

It'S not that so much. It's that one of the problems that occur when something is encoded like this in the brain is that there is no shutoff valve. If you went back and tried to recall social studies class in seventh grade, you would have a difficult time recalling it. However, if I had you recall a very traumatic event in your life, you can recall it as if it were yesterday. So there are specific ways that memories, specifically memories that relate to safety, are stored for biologic reasons. However, the problem is that these particular red flags remain biologically active.

And what does biologically active mean?

That means that if I scan my environment and I was bitten by a dog and I became traumatized by dogs, if I saw a dog walking across the street, my heart rate would increase. I would see dog, I would see bite, I would see fray, boom, move away.

So it's like, in NLP terms, it's an anchor. Is that correct?

It's an adverse stimuli, like a Pavlovian ring the bell.

For like the whole Pavlov ring, bell, salivate. It's. You've. Now that stimulus triggers a response.

So. So here, here might be an example that, that I'm thinking through, and you can kind of let me know if I'm on the right track or not. So like an Obvious scenario for probably Everybody here is September 11th, right? Everybody can kind of remember exactly where they were, what they were doing. Like that memory is very vivid for most people that were alive at that time. Right now today, fast forward, what has it been, 17 years? Fast forward 17 years. If I'm in a city and I hear a plane going over and I look up, I might go for just a split second, I might think to myself, hopefully nothing's going on with that plane.

Right?

But it's probably not traumatized in your brain. It's a difference as you correctly. As Marx correctly stated, some people will view the same event and have different outcomes. But let me get to where we're headed. The red flag is a actual thing.

In the brain and it's called an ampar receptor. And this is the red flag that in your brain when something happens like this, not only does it remember the scene, but it remembers everything about that scene.

So it also encodes in the brain things that are peripheral to the thing that was really threatening. And sometimes things that are peripheral are also stimulatory to create those stress hormones of norepinephrine, dopamine and cortisol. So the problem is that since there's no down regulatory issue and you see things that are similar to the initial event, your body is constantly bathed in stress related hormones. Over time this causes overwhelming stress on your immune system and that becomes permissive for expression of many symptoms. What Havening does is we use the electrical component of touch. Touch produces a delta wave and we use the term electroceutical. Now electroceutical is similar to a pharmaceutical except we use electricity. And that electricity is generated either by someone touching their client or by the client self treating touching themselves.

And for the audience touching himself doesn't mean what some of you will think. It just means you're sort of stroking your arms and your face, applying the tubes parts and the palms of your hand, which are the three parts that have the highest electromagnetic delta production.

Now delta waves are a very interesting thing because they really only exist during the third stage of soul wave sleep. They're almost never in the awake state. So we create a paradox for the mind. How do we have delta waves present during the awake hours? And what's the significance of this? So in Havening, what we do is we have the person recall the event into their mind. Imagine they imagine what happened. This activates a certain part of the brain. Once it is in that part of the brain, we start distracting the brain, have them counting, have them jumping up and down having the visualizations. So it kicks that thought out of that part of the brain, because that brain can. That part of the brain can only operate on one thing at a time. So we kind of kick it out. But here's the interesting part. The amphor receptors which were activated by the imaginal recall are still active for up to 10 minutes post imagination.

We then go in with our delta wave touch as an electroceutical, and we then create an enzymatic and biologic circumstance which removes the red flag from the amygdala permanently. And since the thought which put it there in the first place is no longer available, this got kicked out of the brain, this particular thought, it can't be rethought because the circumstance isn't there. And that's why when this is done successfully, the problem is solved permanently.

So let me get this straight. So somebody has what's considered a traumatic event, which basically means some stimulus triggers the amygdala to release these hormones that cause stress, right? Fight or flight system. And the brain, the limbic system, creates a pattern or a red flag saying we're going to remember this because it seems to be important and we want survival. The problem is there's no valve to turn that off. And since the brain captures everything in its periphery and at its focal point, you might be living in stress, not aware of it, because the chair that sits next to you at the office might remind you of the chair when you had the traumatic event. And so you're releasing these chemicals which makes you not perform as well. Then what happens is you as a havening practitioner recall this event gets the person to associate. Now they're in sort of this panic mode or not excited, you begin to distract the neocortex or the thinking brain, counting backwards, whatever, as you stroke their arms or their face to create delta waves which then bathe this sort of whack a mole concept, sort of bathe this and detach, right? These ampa receptors with that, you know, amygdala or memory or whatever you want to call it. So that next time, because you've depotentiated, which is a term you guys use, which means that you've unlinked this, you've broken the chain. When the stimulus occurs again, there's no longer that button that you press that triggers the old fight or flight. You're free from that. Is that correct?

100%.

That was said so perfectly. And I'm just thinking now this is probably. And correct me if I'm wrong, you know, if you're in a situation where you might get stressed or you get some anxiety and you don't really know why. Maybe you can't relate that to a previous thing, but it seems like it could be some peripheral thing, like you said, the chair. Maybe it reminds you, but maybe you're not even noticing directly the chair, but somehow it plays into the scenario that you're in right now. I'm assuming the mind remembers it, but actively or not exactly.

And that is the breakthrough that we have achieved. We understand this mechanism onto the vibrations of calcium molecules.

And the calcium molecules, they're the ones that delink the memory from the AMPA receptors or the trigger, is that correct?

The calcium molecules have to do with the development of. Of two particular enzymes, one which is calcium.

I'm not going to.

I don't want to get too detailed into the neurobiology of it. But the calcium ions attach themselves to enzymes inside the cell which help implode.

The AMPA receptor or help build the AMPAR receptor. They work in different ways in different. And they're modulated by the electrical current that is going through the circumstance at the time. So in an encoding, we're seeing very high frequency gamma and a DE encoding or depotentiation or low frequency delta wave. That's why we look at these things as electroceuticals in terms of how we apply these things in allowing the patient or client to heal themselves.

Got it. So, doc, let me ask you this. Sometimes entrepreneurs will experience panic attacks for no reason whatsoever, or night terrors, which seems to be the most. And then of course, stress. Why is that happening to them and how can Havening help them?

Well, let's take panic disorders for a second.

Just quickly.

I'll give you a quick story about that.

Panic disorders seem to have no particular stimulating event. The person just seems to feel all of a sudden overwhelmed. So I had a client come in and she said, I'm having this issue that you discussed. And we then took a history and I asked her what was going on at the present time. And she said, really nothing much except my daughter's going off to college. And I said, well, that's interesting. And what are you feeling? She's feeling very sorry because there's going to be a loss. They're best friends. I said, I mean, are you feeling almost being abandoned by your daughter? She says, yes, I almost do. And she said. I said, well, when was the last time you felt this way? He said, funny you should ask. I was driving in my husband's car 25 years ago. And I needed to get something out of the glove compartment, and in there was a letter from him to my best girlfriend talking about their affair.

So I brought her back to that moment, which she found the letter. I then Haven that memory or the emotional component away, and her panic issues disappeared.

Okay, so this is really interesting, and I think it's important for the listeners to find out is that we're going to cover the Havening technique in a minute. However, the reason why it's important that if they have serious issues like this, they go see a Haven practitioner. It's because really, 80% of what makes this work is finding out the intake or the memory of what actually needs to be depotentiated. Is that correct?

That's where the art is, right? The technique is relatively straightforward. It's the art just like everything else. It requires the art of developing a lens of perception that you're thinking like the amygdala.

And it seems like you're doing that with that prompt that you just said there, which in this case it was, when is the last time you felt this way, whatever that might be? It seems like that question right there is a perfect prompt. It might be difficult for that person in the time, but maybe your partner or something knows this prompt. If they see you freaking out, like, hey, hey, let's go back a little bit here and address that. Right?

Once we find that event and we can reduce the emotional component to that event, then the downstream events no longer hold any stimulation because that receptor related to the abandonment issue, which was overlaid to her daughter leaving, is no longer relevant.

And so this is, I think, super important, right? In the sense that this is pretty pivotal in that basic. I think what Doc is saying is that there are events that may not be traumatic at that moment in time, or they may be, we don't know. Right. You might be six years old and have a moment that's somewhat traumatic, but not uber traumatic. So it's hard to remember that. But then that creates sort of this overlay. And then as we get older and other things show up in our lives, we become entrepreneurs, whatever the case may be. We might think that something is causing the stress, when in reality we could handle that pretty well if not for a much earlier event that has created this sort of overlay landscape where we're triggered more than we should. Is that about right?

Document carpier so far? 10 to 10.

Okay, great.

Yeah. Okay. So I was just wondering, how would you go about or how would you suggest going about addressing these things? Like, is it just in the moment when like a freak out time happens or anxiety or do you create a list and go back as far as you can or is there some order?

The nice thing about havening is that it could be self applied, you empowered. Just like if you cut yourself on your hand, you do not have to consult a doctor for your brain to make that cut heal over. It knows what to do. And our body, this is what is going to be changing in the next number of years as we move away from treating concepts and allowing more healing concepts to enter into our arena, is that we can literally.

Change the way not only do we perceive things, but on how our body responds. So people who have chronic pain, for example, a vast majority of it is the amygdala. And many times when someone comes in with a backache that has no really physical origin and we find that this person has a lot of anger, we remove the anger and the back pain goes away.

So the applications here in terms of how we're applying it, we have a team that we're working with midwives and we're just getting some early data back that if a mother goes into a high stress environment where she gets very anxious and she starts with this enormous amount of epinephrine and cortisol and dopamine that begins to create problems, the birthing process and also increases the heart rate of the child. And we have some pretty well documented evidence now on EEGs of both the child and the mother that if you haven the mother during this moment and reduce the stress she's under, the child calms down too. That's so cool.

It just seems like everything else is kind of a band aid unless you get to the amygdala like you said here with this.

Here's how I look at it. We have been good and are excellent and many wonderful things have happened by the understanding that we have become excellent in treating symptoms.

But let's take one small step back from symptoms and that is what is allowing the body to be permissive for this presentation. If we treat the symptom, we're halfway there, but you still have that biologically active stressor that creates the expression of that symptom. Until you can reduce that biologic stress or that ampar receptor, then you still have a stressor that's going on physically.

What about this doc? Let's say that Susie Entrepreneur is really excited about, you know, growing her business. And for some reason she keeps finding that she's sabotaging herself, right? She gets a certain revenue volume and Then she'll do something stupid to bring the volume back down. So she's got this sort of ying yang mental thermostat. She just can't break through that, that revenue. Would we be able to accurately say that hypothetically, she may have a encoded event or traumatic event that's preventing her from doing that. And until she can release that or depotentiate it, she may not pass that revenue. You know, her mom says, you know, I don't want you to be successful because you know, you may leave your kids. I don't know, something stupid. And then subconsciously, now the amygdala won't let her succeed because it's trained to stop or to fear or to not move forward. Would that be something that we could address with Havening?

Absolutely. It's being done all over the world as we speak.

Yeah, that's the thing is, you know.

We have coaches in executive offices, Havening coaches and trainers in executive offices pretty much all over the world. But if you on a nice model to think about it, and you think, if you think about the weight loss industry, which is probably about as big as the economy in the United States. Sure, but why do people lose weight, then relapse, lose weight and relapse. And it really is because that in many instances the weight is a protective mechanism. Now they may have been physically abused, sexually abused, verbally abused as a child, or were objectified in some way and they gained the weight to prevent them from having this issue on them. And so when you lose weight, even though we know cognitively is the best thing to do, amygdala says, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're getting too close to something that makes me feel very uncomfortable being attractive. And that's why they gained the weight back.

So the entrepreneur could have the same problem.

Right?

With no, no, no, no, no, you.

Get too close to. It's a total analogy.

Exactly.

You know, just, just quickly I could tell you two quick stories. I had two patients and one guy was an 86 year old guy, goes to work every day, loves his work. So I said, why do you love your work so much? And he said to me, you know, when I was five years old, we lived in the kitchen outside the.

Dry goods place he had. And my father would say to me, he's 86, so this was a long time ago. He said, when he was five years old, he says, you're such a good boy, come into work and you'll help me out here. And to this day I said to him, so you're still working because you really want to be such a good boy. He says, yeah, that's probably true. And on the other side of the coin, as I think Joe may have said that, or you may have said vox, where the parents said, you'll never amount to anything. And then he did that just to spite his parents because he was angry. So these dynamics work in so many different ways, if that makes any sense to you guys.

Look, I mean, I went and became a millionaire the first time out because when I was little, my mom kept telling me, me, your dad doesn't love. Because they were divorced. We lived in the U.S. my dad lived in South America. My mom hated my dad and kept saying, your dad doesn't love you guys because he doesn't send any money. So I equated my mom's love with money. So I thought, well, if I become rich, she'll love me. Which didn't work out that way, by the way. But nonetheless, it was whether positive or negative, right? It was still encoded. And so subconsciously or limbic system, it drove me now. So there are sort of positive and negative aspects of that. So, doc, is there something that anybody can do every day? Maybe, maybe, you know, I mean, if they need therapy, they should go see a haven eating practitioner. But I mean, what can they do daily to strengthen the landscape, to become more resilient, to, you know, be able to sort of program themselves for success more so than they are now?

That's such a wonderful question, Marks, and I will answer it fully. First of all.

I believe I'm just going to have a little philosophical discussion about the concept of values.

Values, I think, are the things that drive us. But if we look at values, it has two levels. A, it is what we value, and then how that expression of that value expresses itself. So in your particular case, Marx, you value economic security because it's very possible that when you were younger, that was something that you felt was very important to you. So that became a underlying value. But you also develop values at that same time of family and hard work and making sure that you do everything you can to move in the right direction. So you had all of this value, and then these values became because of that. So at the beginning of the day, if you want self haven, I'll describe that. Now you can take the palms of your hands and rub them together as if you're gently washing your hands with a nice soft soap. And that's one havening move. The other havening move is to cross your arms in front of your chest with your hands on top of your shoulders and in a 1 second cadence slide down to your elbows with a sensation of kind but with authority. And the third one is placing your hands on your cheekbones and gently stroking back as if you're washing your face in one second cadences. Now these three spots have been shown to be the most delta wave producing in a work by Mel Harper in the Journal of Traumatology a number of years ago. So that is why we use those spots as compared to meridians and other things. Even though I suspect, even though I don't know for sure, EFT may work by similar mechanisms. The whole philosophy of EFT is different than havening, but it doesn't mean that it's bad, it's just different.

We feel that.

These tools are very, very, very valuable and very.

Powerful. And you want to make sure that when people do these things, they're doing them with a sense of ethics involved in it. So we've structured our business structure over time to grow organically where we couldn't just bring this thought out in the book because who's going to do it? So we had to develop.

Training programs and international copyrights and then develop trainers, then develop certification programs and then develop legal issues that keep everybody safe. So and all over the world. So this is where we are now is we are an educational training company where we have people going out and training other people to be practitioners, which is a process and then they can go out and work in their practices and apply this technique long term. Once we get a critical mass of practitioners which are well on our way. We're in 22 countries in eight languages. In three years that we will begin to see if we can license the brand to a wide variety of health related centers and see if we could develop these are future thoughts and ideas. But at the present time we send people into third world. We have teams that go into third world countries to refugee camps and train havening to the people who are running these refugee camps. We work with first, we work with first responding teams, educators, midwives.

Police officers.

You know, so, you know, it's funny you say that because I was, a little while ago I was in the martial arts class and I was sparring with this girl who wants to be an MMA fighter and I hit her a little bit too hard in the stomach and don't judge me, guys. She was fighting, okay? And she just bent over and was about to cry. Runs out of the studio. I chase her, she's about to throw up. I'm like, don't do it. Just relax. And she's crying and I felt terrible. So I started havening her. And I go, look, this is havening. Or I started talking. She goes, I know what it is. They've trained me in it. I was like, who? She goes, I do HR for this company stuff. And so within five minutes she was great. Stomach pain, go away. I didn't feel like an asshole anymore.

You know, and life worked out well. But so, doc, so back to the whole thing. We've got these three techniques. What does a guy or gal do in the morning?

Generally, I'm going to give a very wonderful thing that we use in some of our trainings. So you can choose. Now what we've learned is we actually have measured by a thing called a focus band, which fits around your head. Which part of the body generates the most delta waves? Because it varies from person to person. Some are hands, some are face, some are also the person has to find that one of those three that works best for them. Then I would just spend five minutes havening, just chanting these three words. Safe.

Peaceful, calm.

That will set your intent for the whole day. So you won't go out very high, nor adrenaline. You won't go hot. You'll be able to look at things with a clear focus without the problem of being anxious or stressed. And it helps when that is even though short term anxiety is a good thing because it's very clarifying, but it's very destructive.

So I gotta tell you a funny story. So I've got, you know, I coach for business. I got a client who I coach for business who's very hard, driven and you know, super like, let's go get him kind of thing. And then they meditate every day on average 20 to 25 minutes. But we found that he said he couldn't get this sort of meditative state. So I said, look, why don't we try this? Try haven't just haven your arms or your face. And I told the three techniques and just sit there for five minutes and repeat a mantra that you love. And his was, you know, peace, right? So he now does peace for five minutes. And he says he gets more value from those five minutes of havening saying peace. And he'll go like, he'll go peace. And then go back up and go peace. That's what he, how he does it. He says he feels like he meditated for two hours and he hits the day and he's been more productive.

Or more resilient to stress because, you know, there's distress and eustress. So would you then doc say that perhaps havening might be what people are trying to get to when they meditate?

In addition to the electrochemical.

The electrical delta wave that it creates, it also produces serotonin, which is a calming neurochemical. It's the Ying of epinephrine's yang. So light touch, like. So when you go to massage therapy, for example, when you come out, you feel like, ooh, that's pretty relaxing. It's tough to focus, tough to put your mind to something if you normally focus like a laser. And now all of a sudden things are pretty gushy. It's because you have a great deal of serotonin. So not only is havony good in that way, but on a calming effect, it has a serotonergic effect.

They have a drug for that, which is Xanax, which is selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, which means that it prevents the uptake of serotonin, which keeps it in the bathing the brain a little bit longer. And that's why you stay calmer. So I would say that if I were to self havening at the end of the day.

Learning how to truly self haven will be the single biggest advantage of havening in the world. Because the person who learns how to do it well can overcome almost any things that they have in their way by doing it themselves. But it's just the way it is.

Hold that thought, because I think that's pretty powerful and important. You also said I want to ask two questions. And you also said earlier that the intention behind the touch. Right. When you talk about self havening, you said a soothing but.

With authority. With authority. That's it. With authority. So that's interesting. So if somebody haven'ts and they're not doing it with a proper mindset, is it not as effective?

It's just as effective.

Okay, so then why the authority with it? Why did you throw that word in?

Because we want to introduce in the dynamic of a person havening someone else. The space that's created is in coaching or in therapeutics. Havening has a environment. So imagine two circles, one representing the client, one representing the practitioner, and then a center circle that overlaps those two circles. You can call that the table. And that is where the client puts the thing to be worked on and the havener brings the thing to fix it. So it is somewhat dissociated from the client themselves, but yet part of the client. So when a therapist havening person applies it, the touch, the intent is to be kind but show, you know, it's like a wet handshake.

Right.

So it's kind, but with authority, but.

It doesn't make us. It makes us feel safer anyway. Right.

I mean, when somebody you feel confidence with.

Right, exactly.

Flossing around with it, you know, so it's kind of like a limp hug.

Yeah, that makes sense.

That's the intent. That creates the third circle that opens the two outer circles where you can work on the project that you're working on.

So what about this, Doc? So let's say that, you know, I'm a big believer in affirmations, right? It's. It's a great way to program the subconscious or the unconscious mind, whether you want to talk about Freud or Erickson, you know, whatever. So I'm a big believer in affirmation. Does Havening. If I have an affirmation that says I am ambitious, and I go, I'm ambitious, I am ambitious. If I start doing habiting, I am ambitious, I am ambitious, does that supercharge the affirmation? Does that help me?

Totally.

How so?

Well, we have, you know, this is called the Havening techniques, which means there's more than one technique that we use, and we actually have seven techniques, but we have a number of techniques that fall into the category that you're talking about. We have hopeful havening, we have outcome Havening, and we have affirmational haven. These are three subsets of our techniques. And you can. We do. Because we've done it, we can actually change the narrative of an experience to the person for them to ultimately believe that the experience had a different outcome than the outcome it had when they were in real time.

So in other words, something happened. You can go back and rewrite history for a positive outcome. Yes. Got it. So because, you know, from my perspective on the study that I've done, right. Affirmations have two aspects, intense intensity and frequency.

Right.

And this goes back to email Kuei's work. So would it be accurate to say that perhaps when we do havening, the intensity knob gets turned from perhaps a 3 to a 10, which makes it more impactful in influencing the unconscious or subconscious mind?

And I'm going to throw this at you, so you'll love this. So the 12th step of Napoleon Hill or 13th step of Napoleon Hill, 13th step of Napoleon Hill is the sixth sense. And when you understand what that sixth sense is, when you're doing these affirmations, it is structuring the prism of your sensory input to remove anything that is not relevant to whatever your Ambition is. Now, that being said.

One has to look at what it is that you value about ambition now. Because, you know, it's funny you asked that because we've had poets come to us who want to be haven for their anxiety. And we tell them, look, if we haven you and get you rid of your anxiety, you may not be able to write poetry anymore, because you ought to be.

Right?

So everything has to be taken in context of how you want to work with your client.

So in the sixth sense conversation, when you said that, what brought to mind was a reticular activating system, which of course, when the ras is active, it basically eliminates anything that isn't the thing you're looking for. Right.

Let's look at it from a little. But there are some new ways of looking at it that may be helpful.

We can look at it instead of a reticular activating system, which is really not entirely correct, but we could look at it as a flexible response mechanism.

Sure.

So, because in the brain, it's not just the neurons, it's not just the cortex, but there are parts of the brain called the glial cells. Do you ever hear the phrase we only use 10% of our brain?

Yes.

What do you think that means?

That's all we can access.

You guys have repeated about a hundred.

Times the behaving of, I don't know.

But you never thought about what it means. What it means is where that came from was many years ago. The brain is filled with things called glial cells that occupy 90% of the the brain surface. The rest is cortex and limbic system. Years ago, the people who looked at the brain thought it was just stuff that held the brain together. But nature would never be that wasteful of space that it didn't have something to do with overall functioning. And when you really dive deep in what we're finding out in some neuroscience today, there is it's a whole brain phenomenon. So it's not just a reticular activating system, it's not just the limbic system, it's not just all of these things. These things are acting in milliseconds all over your brain to create a safety and an outcome from the incoming sensory input. And how you create that prism is how you will interpret that input coming in and how you will then have a behavioral response to that input. So anytime you want to structure your brain in any particular way, to get a lens to go through, use the words, you could even use sentences, you could even use anything, but it structures your brain to think in a certain way and to intake information from your environment in a specific way.

This is amazing. And it's literally allowing you to access other parts of your brain that might have been muted because of some experience in the limbic system there.

Correct?

Yeah.

Going to you Marx, really quick on that story. I think you were talking about with the, what was it? The meditation and you know, kind of chanting. I believe it was. But with me I've tried to meditate a lot and without some kind of input or usage of a chant, a repetitive sentence, or even binaural beats where it's using those brain waves, it's very difficult for me to get in and feel like two hours have passed after 20 minutes or so. But I could see what. Yeah, oh yeah, I know, that's what I'm saying. I'm like this. Or even maybe a combination of the two. Once you just try, honestly just try.

Haveting for five minutes in a quiet place with whatever mantra you want and then see how you feel. I mean, I've done it. It's amazing. Okay, Doc, so two questions and they can ask more questions. But I have two questions. One is how is Havening better than eft? And I want you to answer that. Not the same. I want you to tell me why it's better.

Right.

And secondly is so the entrepreneur, the person listening, they can haven for five minutes a day chant the mantra and that will increase the resiliency but also begin to do what for them? What else will it do for them?

Well, first of all, I've taken a policy of not saying that we're better than anyone.

Oh, shut up. Come on, come on.

You don't need to be PC here. It's cool.

We'Re just different.

Oh, be quiet. You know him on.

Those boys got nothing on us.

I think the thing about Havening is that we are really deep in the science. At the end of October, we will have the seminal paper published in a peer reviewed journal that describes all the underlying science, all the underlying philosophy, these, all the underlying approaches. And once that gets published, that will be the seminal paper from all the other papers we'll draw from. So we have a really good solid background in peer review science. 2 It's simple. The model is simple. You don't have to have any paradigms, any protocols, anything like that. You can either hand wash arm, shoulder, arm, rubber face. You don't need any particular sequence, it's just different.

In addition, Havening has the other side of the eft. We do affirmational Havening outcome. Havening and hopeful. Hopeful havening. And we also do debriefing in a different way. We have a whole wide.

Protocol that's just different and we apply our work differently. So it's not that something is better if it works, it works. That's just a simple fact. I just believe at the end of the day, that which is most efficient, that which is most effective will eventually come out and make its way known into the world.

That's what I think.

And my job in running this company is to make sure we have absolutely the higher standards of.

Science ethics and the people who we are now working with all over the world really meet extremely high criteria of education and client centered work. And just across the globe we have astonishing people working with us. So how long it will take to do this? We're five years in. We're five years in. And.

I think that the more we stay on path with keeping our trainings small and expanding these things till we reach critical mass is the way to go grow an organic company like this. So I'm in no rush necessarily to do it because we don't have the capacity to treat all the millions of people yet. So as we get closer to doing these things and havening can be done on Skype, you don't even have to be present in the room. I would say 50 to 60% of all the behaving that's occurring globally is done by Skype.

Wow. And that's just probably based off of prompts. Is that what that would be? That would do.

What do you mean off of prompts?

So I guess a coach, for instance.

You'Re sitting there with sky someone and you, you're havening with them and you go, well and they're havening and you're watching them and make sure their cadence is right, they're doing it well. And you have them close their eyes and you go through our protocols and you prompt them and they self discover. And as they self discover they release all the stressors that have been holding them back.

I love it. And the fact that it's only five minutes and obviously you can go as long as you want. Want I would imagine, but five minutes?

Yeah, it's, it's client dependent. We can fix things really quickly, but depending upon the level and severity of the event, there are times that this thing can take a long time.

And you guys have done things like ptsd, panic disorders, night terrors, anxiety, rape, childhood trauma, memories. You've also done, people have been afraid of phobias, obviously future pacing all that kinds of stuff. Do you have a most common. What do most people come see you for or anybody in general?

That's very interesting. You asked that question. We just did a deep dive survey.

With some of our people out of South Africa who are really brilliant in this.

The two most common presentations of our certified prep practitioners are anxiety and depression.

I could see that spanning every. I mean that doesn't matter what you do for a living, where you live or anything. I mean we're all living with some sort of. That at different severities. Like you said.

I don't worry about getting. I never worry about my practitioners having clients.

Yeah. Okay, you're in a good spot.

We have an out. We have a site in LA with a Dr. Kay Truitt who is beyond brilliant. Neuroscientist, MBA, PhD psychology. And in one year she came back from being retired to opening up a Havening practice. She now has three psychologists working full time for her. They are doing training. She bought the property, she built a training center. She's seeing 25 to 30 patients a day for havening in her clinic with three other psychotherapists, all within the scope of one year.

Wow.

There you go. Anybody listening?

She has particular marketing approaches and things like that. But we're now with our deep dive survey and some of the other things we're doing trying to find out exactly what market is where we're gonna head with this. How the best. They best like to learn where they're gonna learn what they want, you know. So we're working on these levels into internal to the company to be able to present to our customers who are therapists and things like that. And then they lead to their end users to be able to expand this because we have to be invited into the world. This is not something you thrust onto the world so you have to be invited. But a lot of things are happening in many wonderful ways.

So we.

You just wait to be invited and it will come.

Yeah. And I would imagine, yeah, there's probably start with the most basic thing, the most calming and I love the safe, peaceful calm for five minutes. That seems like the easiest door into this whole space here.

Yeah, I know. Mark just a minute ago asked another follow up question about what other sort of expectations would we have after.

Days.

Weeks, months of just getting in this routine.

That's a very, very good question.

To some degree it depends on where you're starting and depends upon what your issues are. But generally speaking we are seeing an increase in overall resiliency of the individual and reduction in vulnerability. So things do not throw you as quickly or the level of height of the intensity. So let's say you're having something, you're in the middle of a meeting and it's not going well, and now you're freaking out because everything is dependent upon this thing going down. You walk outside for a minute, have in your face, have in your arms, safe peace will calm you, come back in there, you're much more centered and you present so much better. Rather than a deer in the headlight, you present as the person that it is that you are. And those are very powerful places.

So doc, is it true to say that when people get stressed out, the amygdala or the limbic system hijacks the individual instead of letting the neocortex or the thinking brain be in charge? And so when you haven't, you're more likely putting that dog away in a nice safe place for when you need it, rather than letting it run you all over the place.

Absolutely. But understand the issue that it's not just the amygdala, it's not just the cortex, it's not just consciousness, it is the brain we are just uncovering. I guess the way I could say this is, this is what we know so far. But as we expand this base of knowledge of this point of view that haven't is uncovered, it expands the view of how other things begin to interrelate. Because most of the psychotherapeutic and neuroscientific world are very what I would call neuronally driven. They think it's all about the neurons only and how these things interplay. But it's more than that. And I just think we're coming to understand that better. And I don't mean to say that I know anything more than anyone else knows, but I think we're just seeing a different interplay of how we're going to be interacting with the mind, body, experience. And we're going to see more healing modalities come, more mind, body interaction, become more common stream. Just look how long it took for chiropractic to become mainstream or acupuncture to become mainstream. Decades. Decades. So I have the long view and my view, generally speaking, you look read the literature from introduction to acceptance is about 17 years.

During those 17 years, if we can build a great foundation, if we could build an organization that is responsive, like our website now is almost fully automated and we can really do things that would take five people all day just to flush out. Now people do it themselves. And it's all self running in that way. So in Marx's point of view, the evolution of our business is similar to how he runs his. More the individual, the end user or the customer or client uses it to their own benefit. Where we don't have to get into change. There, for example, their bio, we don't have to change. Or if they want to sign up for a course, it's all done automatically or they take the science exam. All these things are now done automatically. So we remove them from our hand on hand, day to day work. So these are parts of the process of creating a larger business.

So if you do Havening every day for five minutes, let's say after 30, 60, 90 days, really you're sort of. You're shedding away the things that are less you and you're becoming more of your authentic self, which allows you to be more resilient and capable and productive. Is that right?

We have. Yes, we have people who are end state haven themselves.

That means they.

Know these people very well and they're just beautiful people and they tell me these stories about themselves.

Oh, I. I think Lou's one of them, you know, I love her.

Yeah, Lou's.

Exactly.

Lou is the perfect story. Lou McCay, Louise McKay is our international director. He runs our international division.

Can you give a quick story on her just to. Just to let us know a little bit here.

If not, if, if anything's not clear.

These are very, very, you know, Marx may know them, but, you know, I don't know.

I'll tell you a story. I have no shame.

I would rather not be the first story.

Yeah, you go ahead, you can take the book. No, look, Lou's amazing. She knows. She. Basically that's why I first got introduced to Havening was I went to her to teach me. And she's the queen of self Havening. And she says every time she has an issue, she just goes and havens it. You know, after she has like for example, she saw a video of a poor puppy or dog being mistreated and really sent her for a loop. And she, she did not believe. She couldn't believe that that video because she's a big dog lover, couldn't believe the video I sent her for the sloop. So she ran to the kitchen and she just haven't herself and you know, self, you know, peace, you know, calm, safe, all that stuff and about for about 20 minutes until she could get it off. And every time she runs into something where she feels that it holds her back, she just so haven't said. And if anybody ever meets her, she's just bubbly, she's vibrant, she's hilarious. She's not, you know, the Messiah, right. She's not like a person without issues, but she really has nothing left. And if something comes up, she gets rid of it really quickly. Because her standard, her level of.

I guess self love or whatever and called it is so at the upper echelon that she doesn't tolerate anything. Right? She won't tolerate something that doesn't make her be at her best. I think that's, that's pretty powerful, right? So I mean, she was, I think afraid of a bridge or something and she had her loving husband Ian drive her through the bridge. She just haven't. When they went through the bridge one time after that, she was fine. I mean she is an absolute dynamo when it comes to this stuff.

And it sounds like she's just ultra aware. She's now programmed this in herself to be aware of a time where she doesn't feel like, like herself. Because I know a lot of us are walking around with a little anxiousness in our stomach or wherever it shows up and you're just like, ah, it's normal. I'm used to it by now.

I'll tell you what. So like I've noticing that I was checking my phone more than I'd like to on a regular basis. So what I did was every time this happened after we got back from our vacation because, you know, I was think anxious about, you know, what email am I getting and what's going on when I had no reason to do that, right. So I said every time I had the urge to check the phone, I said nope. And I would just haven't like for 30 seconds or a minute. And so every time ended up, what ended up happening was I no longer had this connection between having to check my phone and actually checking it. So now it's just I only check it when I feel that I need to check it based on what I want rather than this thing, this addictive calling me. Does that make sense?

Right? Yeah, definitely. I love it now. There's so many ways to apply this and so many cool stories. I'm sure you guys have both, both of you guys.

I don't have as many as Steve. I mean he's been doing this for 17 years and has haven thousands and thousands of people. And you know, he's. Look, he's also a trained coach and a hypnotherapist, which you didn't talk about. He's also a doctor so you know, he's got some, some chops.

Oh yeah. And, and I want to be careful of you guys time too. So any, anything that you want to get off your chest there doc, that you feel like you want to share with the audience here or just any kind of cool stories before we wrap it up here. A cool story, anything that resonates. It's always good to get something out there that we might not have asked.

I think the best phrase that I could do is people need to come to believe that change is possible. You can actually change the circumstances if you so desire to.

And if you don't believe it, can't you haven that belief so that they do believe it? Yeah, yeah.

Because I mean a lot of people talk about how a, you know, most people don't change and the only way change happens is through a traumatic event. So this, this is, you know, a potential bypass of having a traumatic event necessarily.

What I was trying to get, what I was trying to get doc to say, which he didn't say because I probably, he probably didn't want to say, was if you self haven for five minutes a day, just you know, say, you know, safe, peaceful, calm changes in your life will begin to manifest that you didn't expect you might become a better parent, a better, you know, friend, a better husband, a better wife, a better business person, all of these things will begin to possibly happen. Now you can't make those claims because nothing's guaranteed. But I've seen it over and over again. Now it may not solve all your problems, but you might be surprised at how cool that really is. And if somebody does need some help, then they should probably go to. Is it havening.org Is that right Doc? Yep.

On that site it's our website. We have a few things. We have a wonderful Facebook forum. It's a closed group, it's by invitation only in which we discuss cases and concepts and ideas. So we have on it now well over a thousand people all over the world. These are not random people. You have to be invited on. And we every day talk from people from South Africa to New Zealand to Vietnam to the Yukon to Alaska, Norway, Spain, Germany, France, England, United States, all over the world. And.

That'S a wonderful Facebook page where we actually do things like self havening and someone leads people who want to come in self haven with him or.

Any people who are running into thoughts on how to handle a particular case. And then the website is full of.

Data and information and if you want to go on YouTube. Go on YouTube havening and look at Tam Johnson, how Havening works. And that will give you an idea of some of the underlying science. That's perfect.

And we'll make sure to link that stuff in the show notes here for the listeners too.

Right.

Great.

Awesome.

So, Doc, when are you going to come do a Haven certification seminar in Texas?

Well, I mean, you know, anytime you set it up, you get 20 people together, we come.

Okay.

We'll come out there.

Yeah, no, I would say la, but I live in Texas now, so, you know, you guys can figure out your own. But Texas, when we were in those.

In the Yukon in Vancouver and you know, I've been floating around with this stuff all over the world.

You know, San Diego is a nice place. You know, Dallas, San Diego, man, I.

Love San Diego, but I live in Dallas. Hey, Joe, Matt. So maybe we can get a group of 20 folk and time and then have Steve on a weekend and we'll hang out to, you know, and I'll do some business stuff for you guys. But it'll be fun. I think it'd be kind of cool. Plus, you know, Doc is in New York and we're sort of the flyover state. He needs to give us a little love. You have no haven e practitioners in Tex, by the way. Zero actually.

Actually, the Hardens are in. I'm pretty sure are in Texas. We do. If you go online and to save any practitioner do Texas H A R D I N I think is a practitioner. That's the last name in Texas.

They must be new because the last time I checked, which has been a while.

Yeah, I think.

The husband and became a certified practitioner just recently. I'm almost positive Texas. Absolutely.

Good for them.

There you go.

Joe, Matt, anything else you want to ask me?

We covered a lot of ground.

Yeah. I think we can go on for a very long time. So let's how about this. I know myself, I'm going to be havening like a madman for every day, probably start and finish of the day at a minimum.

Well, you know, just, you know, let me know how you're doing. You could write to infoavening.com infoavening.com and let me know how you're doing with it.

I love it. Thank you, man. And listeners too. Yeah. If you want to maybe join out in Texas or if there's some interest, then, hey, just email us, you know, to get ahold of us Evergreen profits and let's make something happen.

I'm going to try to persuade the doc offline to do A Haven certification with an extra day on business so.

That we can bring our top executive coaches in for them to do.

Haven.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

We have executive coaches that are just ridiculous. And they just haven these CEOs and get them moving in the right direction.

I'm just thinking, like, just typical entrepreneur. And like you said, a CEO. Just imagine if you gave them the tools and the power to then educate all their employees. Employees, their leadership staff. All that trickles down. And just the amount of stress that happens at a leadership role for a lot of. I mean, everybody.

So imagine you go to your company, right, and, you know, you have employees, and the first thing everybody does is five minutes in the Haven. And maybe they haven't, you know, safe, peaceful car. Maybe they haven't. The mantra of the business, you know, we provide great value for our clients as to Haven or whatever, or we're awesome, or we're a team. Who knows, right? Who knows, on the positive aspect, really are endless. Plus, also, you shoot off mirror neurons, which gets everybody lined up and rapport. I mean, there's just. I can go on and on about all this stuff, but for the doctor's sake of his time, I think we probably should say thank you and move on.

We do give you thanks.

Well, as I said, I'm available@infoavenly.com and Marx, I want to thank you for. For setting this up.

Yeah.

Thank you, Joe, Matt, it was nice talking to you. And maybe we'll do this again sometime.

I love it. Yeah, we'll get some experience under our belts and maybe meet up, and we'll definitely can play it around, too, here. Thank you so much. It's been fun.

All right, guys, Mark's have you nacho.

Enjoy.

I'll catch you later.

All right, Bye. Bye.

All right, thank you, and I hope you just enjoyed this episode you just listened to. Now, right now, before we sign off, I have a few things I would love for you to do. So the very first thing is to go find our guest on Facebook and tell them that you loved their episode with us. That's going to help them just feel good about themselves, but also it's going to spread the word a little bit more for us. Go find them on Facebook. Everybody's on Facebook. And go say that you love their episode and maybe one cool thing that you learn there. The second thing is to go to itunes and subscribe to our podcast. Just look up hustle and flowchart and hit the subscribe button. And the very last thing, the third thing is to leave us a review on itunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast and help us spread the word more. That's how more people are going to get this awesome knowledge, this, this cool podcast training and a whole bunch of other cool, free training that we give out at evergreenprofits. Com. So that's about it. Go find them on Facebook, go subscribe on itunes, and leave us a review. You would be amazing if you did that, but you're always amazing. So thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.

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