Esther Kiss - How to Get on Radio, TV and High-Profile Podcasts

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flow chart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. Yo, yo, what's up, dude?

We're doing this intro right after we just talked to.

This is unheard of.

This is. This is insane. Because my brain isn't dead yet. At the end of our podcast day.

Yeah, no, I know. Typically, we do all of our intros at the end of the day after recording four interviews, and then we go back and go, what do we talk about on that episode again? But we're actually recording this intro right after we recorded the interview, so we.

Should be able to, like, total, totally say everything that Esther just told us.

Of course.

You go first.

Well, first of all, you just hinted at who we're talking to. Oh, by the way, you're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. If we didn't tell you that, you didn't pick that up from our intro. Surprise. This is the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. I'm Matt Wolfe. My co host is Joe Fear. Thanks for tuning in. Today we're talking to Esther Kiss that.

Dude, are you trying to be a polished radio broadcaster? Because we're trying to get syndicated on the radio. We're actually not yet, but because we're too filthy for that.

Too filthy.

They'd have to bleep way too many things. We'd be fined $50,000 a pop. Yeah.

We'd have to get a lot cleaner with how we talk if we want to be on the radio.

Felt like there was a pretty clean episode. This one, though.

It was. Yeah.

All right, so Esther Kiss is totally amazing.

She's just deep into the publicity world, the PR world, and all sorts of facets with podcasting, tv, radio, all the online publications, magazines, stuff like that. And this was a total. You know, we talked about PR before with Andrew o', Brien, good buddy of ours. We took a totally different angle with Esther, and, you know, like, so both of these episodes, I feel like, can stand alone and be really well, like, if you just kind of combined what each are saying.

Yeah.

With this one, you know, we really dug into how to get on podcasts, how to approach the podcasters, what kind of things you can do to help podcasters out so they'd be actually interested in having you. We talk about how to get into radio, how to get on tv, how to get on national tv, how to.

Talk in sound bites, how to talk in radio and tv.

Yeah. So if you are gonna go on tv. This is, you know, we got some pointers on how to present when you go on tv. We talked about the podcasting world and what kind of things are coming up in podcasting.

Talked about those scams out there of getting onto Forbes and all these big publications.

Don't go.

Don't do it. Yeah, because we almost got taken a little bit by a few people. But yeah, don't do it.

Don't go. Don't lose your money to get on. On, like, news sites like Forbes and stuff. Unless you're actually purchasing advertising, which is a different story.

Different.

But don't. If somebody approaches you and says, hey, for X amount of money, we'll get you on Forbes. Don't do it. Esther will tell you why when we get into this episode.

So, yeah, we. What? What you got?

Go ahead. I was going to go ahead and start pitching our newsletter and our companions, but go ahead and say what you're going to say.

You can pitch me on that newsletter here.

I'll.

Grady. So it's just like you're pitching to a PR agency or something.

Now you're putting me on the spot.

Yeah.

All right, so if you're listening to this podcast and you're enjoying what you're listening to, you probably want to take some notes on it, right? Yeah. You want to take notes.

I'm nodding my head yes.

But the problem is you're probably driving, you're probably doing dishes. If you're like me, you're walking your dog, you're not going to walk. You're doing something that's making it difficult for you to take notes right now. But don't worry, we've got you covered.

Yes.

If you go to hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m p then we are going to hook you up with the notes from this episode. We take notes on these episodes and we share those notes with you. So any sort of tools, tips, tactics, strategies.

Other podcasts, people's names, all of that kind of stuff.

Takeaways, all action oriented. Yes. We take aggressive notes.

Aggressively aggressive notes.

There's papers torn, there's punches being thrown, but damn it, those notes are basically. They should be printed on gold.

They should.

That good?

Yes. But you can go get them for free if you act fast. If you go to hustleandflowchart.com comp, you can get the notes for this episode, assuming you're getting the notes the week this episode was released. The way our notes work is they're limited. They have a lifespan. Gotta be quick if you get them the week that this episode comes out, they're free.

Are we both touching and talking in pitch voices right now?

Yes, we are.

Ooh, radio voice now.

All right, so Everybody go to hustleandflowchart.com comp.

C O M P. Comp.

Extra.

All right, let's go talk to Esther. Kiss. This is a badass episode. Dang it. I broke a. No cussing. Some people might consider ass a cuss, right?

I think that's allowed on the radio. Maybe not in the deep south of America, because there's some different regulations. I don't know. All right, take that up with the FTC later.

Well, let's go talk to Esther, because this is some killer info.

Killer. Hey, Esther. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah. So you. Yeah, we. I forget, was it Rob Burns that connected us, I believe.

Yes, yes.

Or I think reconnected us. Because, like, I remember when we chatted, I was like, I just feel like you're so familiar. I'm sure we met each other.

So Sam. Actually, Sam Riley, did one of my past clients on Facebook messenger, and then we never got around to actually setting up a chat. But then when Rob introduced us also through email, then we were like, okay, now we gotta talk.

Yeah, that's it.

Yeah. I think we've sort of chatted in the past through email and things like that, just because, you know, Joe and I have been podcasting since 2010, so I know you work with a lot of people in the podcasting world, so there's no doubt we've crossed paths a few times over the years.

Yeah. And now, I mean, I'm sure you're busy with all the podcasts out there because. Yeah, I know we get introduced to all sorts of people, but it's probably a. Is it a boom in time for you in the podcast kind of PR space?

Yeah, you know, it's something that has been around for, I think, about 15 years now, but over the last six. Five, six years, it's grown a lot. And particularly in the online marketing entrepreneurship space. There's just so much, so many shows, and that's a very, very strong component of the work I do as well. We don't only do podcast bookings for our clients. We also do traditional media, but especially for clients who have niche businesses, podcasts are incredible. They really help you build a strong relationship with your audience, and it's great for leads and sales as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Now I'm curious. Let's kind of take our audience back a little. Bit and kind of hear how you got started and how you evolved into this world of helping people get PR and get on podcasts and all the stuff you're doing now. What were you doing before this, and how did you kind of get into this world?

Yeah, I'm a very curious kind of person. So I think that questioning nature led me literally quite around the world. I lived in six other countries before I moved to the US 12 years ago. And my background is in business development and marketing. And I was doing acting at the time. When I first moved here, I moved to Los Angeles for an acting school. And, you know, know how they always say that out of work actors are always waiters? So I really didn't want to do that. I'm like, oh, what can I do?

But I actually looked up and it looks like you did some stage combat acting. Is that true?

A little bit, yeah. Where did you find that?

I was just really curious. Like, I don't want to throw you off, but, like, how does that work really fast?

Well, it's basically choreographed movements like fencing and things like that, which I wouldn't know anymore how to do today. But basically it's like a dance where it looks like you're doing some kind of combat.

Interesting. Cool. Yeah, I saw that. I was like, that's cool.

All right, you can keep going.

You know, and obviously, especially when you're still in acting school or just out, it's. It's very hard to actually make a living as a beginning actor. And so I thought, well, I can go back to my roots in business. And initially what I was doing was day trading, so stock trading really early in the morning, because on the west coast, of course, is three hours behind New York. So I was just, you know, I would get up, like at 5, 5:36am, read the news, do some trading in the morning, and that let me be available and free during the day for auditions or filming or whatever I had going on. And that went really well until the recession hit. And then I was like, oh, no, what am I going to do now? And so I started to actually, just in the beginning, grabbing anything I could, you know, as a freelancer and really trying to figure out what to do. So I was doing subtitles for the movies and teaching Hungarian, like, all these different things. And I started taking coaching clients and helping them with what I knew, which is marketing and how to grow a business. And at the beginning, it was good, but I always attracted beginners, people who are completely in the startup phase. And I really wanted to Connect with entrepreneurs who are successful, who are at a high level, who I've worked with previously before I moved to the U.S. you know, like those types of people who have written New York Times bestselling books or built, like, really successful businesses. And so I had a brilliant idea with a really good friend of mine, madam. We said that why don't we start a show and we can start interviewing these guys and start building those relationships. I don't know what I'm going to do as a business, but I know that we need to start with building those relationships out first. And so we had people like Gary Vaynerchuk and Perry Marshall and John Benson, like all the big guys on the show. And every time we would do an interview, at the end I would say that, hey, I know you have this book coming out or you have this event. Would you like to be on other shows as well? And they always said yes. So I started connecting them and introducing them to other podcasters and making these introductions for them to help them get even more exposure and not charging anything for it, just completely for free to help out and to invest in the relationship. Then one of my clients came to me who was doing Facebook ads for an author, and he says that, hey, here is this author who is a bestselling author already. Can you help him get on some shows, some podcasts? And I'm like, yeah, sure. He's like, yeah, but this time you have to charge for it.

I was like, okay, fine, I guess.

So literally, I went on Google, like, how much does the publicist charge?

Wow.

And it turned into this thing where now I work with really some of the biggest names in our industry, like Ryan Levesque and Gary Vaynerchuk and a lot of up and coming thought leaders as well. And we help them get in the right media to help them share their message in a bigger way.

That's super cool. I'm curious what you charged when you first started. What was the number?

Oh, I started at the high end.

Oh, you did? That's good.

Yeah, if you can, why not? But also it's because it's very much tied with my clients. It's very much tied into direct response, so they really can see the results. So I did right away at five figures per month.

So did you always have that angle of, hey, I'm going to figure out publicity and direct response together?

Yeah. I mean, because my background is in marketing and business development. Previous to this, I had a baseline basic, like a pretty good knowledge of marketing. I didn't know Direct response. But I learned as I went along. And then the other thing too is I really, really enjoy these conversations. And really my superpower is connecting with people. And so this is just a practical application of it, of, you know, saying hello, making new friends, making introductions. That's basically all I'm doing. It's kind of like reverse gossip. You know, instead of talking badly about someone behind their, I talk really good.

About that to the public on shows. Yeah, no, it's perfect. And that's cool that you approach it with that combo in mind because, I mean, that's. Matt and I, we have this kind of odd mission, but not really too odd, but this. Like, hey, we want to take podcasting and like, bridge the gap between digital marketing and podcasting. And I feel like we do it pretty well. But there's a lot of folks that just don't know how to make that connection, especially if they're getting publicity, like going on other shows or even getting featured in something like Fortune or Entrepreneur. So can you talk about that like some of the ways that you connect the two? Direct response and publicity?

Yeah. So that ties into really understanding, first of all, what your goal is with your publicity campaign. For example, if it's for a book launch, that's something where you would plan way ahead of time, like three to four months minimum. But if it's a New York Times bestselling campaign or something really big, six, seven months is easy. Depending on where you're at, where you're starting, how big your platform is, it could be as long as a year that you start planning ahead and understanding what do I want? Do I want to ramp up pre orders for my book or do I want to have this publicity and being featured in Forbes and Inc. And Entrepreneur, wherever tv, you know, for the reason that I want to have more credibility with my market and I want to have those cool logos on my website at Asina and abc, NBC. Those are good too. You know, it really helps because the nice thing is that it helps with conversions at every single point throughout your funnel. It shortens your sales cycle. It builds more trust, it brings more people to you. So it's not something where you necessarily can measure it like a very, very well tracked funnel with the Facebook ads, you know, where you can say to the penny that this is what I spend. This. It's more comparable to, you know, when you start dating someone and at some point you know that you really like this person and you want to be in a relationship with them or you want to marry them. It's not like you knew that. Oh my goodness, the way they smile on that particular occasion, that's what threw me over the edge. That's not how it works. But overall, the cumulative effect is something that we've seen with multiple seven and eight figure businesses where for example, with articles like Entrepreneur or Forbes or Inc. Any of those big name publications, they would use those articles as content in their ads and retarget the leads that they have with those content pieces where basically in the person's mind it's like, well, I've seen this on the news or I read this article, maybe there was a TV clip that they turned into a video ad. And those kinds of conversions take client acquisition costs down by as much as 90%. And this works across the board whether you are doing a free plus shipping book funnel or you're selling really expensive six figure services. Some of my clients sell this stuff literally with one phone call and one email because they use these publicity pieces to warm up that audience and put ad dollars behind it, to put it in front of the right people.

Got it. So walk us through specifics of how that looks. Are you using things like Facebook ads and promoting an article or a clip like you said, a video clip and promoting that on all these different channels?

Yes. So just to be very, very clear, Facebook ads are not my expertise. This is something where I help my clients with the strategy and what they can do with the specific pieces that got for them. So when I start working with somebody, they, let's say they tell me this is the message, this is the goal, this is what they want to accomplish. Let's say we get them on a couple of TV shows, we get them featured in Forbes and Article Entrepreneur, you know, Inc, Those kinds of publications, a handful of podcasts. Now once these interviews are published, we collect all those assets. I track them all in a spreadsheet and look at which are the best ones that content wise would make sense to really start warming up cold leads as well. And so we can look at what can you put on social, what can you put in your autoresponder? What will you just send out as a broadcast news email? What are some of the things that you should definitely use as ads. And then their team or their marketing agency, whoever they're working with, implements that side actually use that content for the advertising side.

Got it. Interesting. Okay, so if like someone wanted to do this, like where, where would you suggest someone to start? Who's listening? With publicity. You know, maybe they haven't been on a podcast or Been featured anywhere, but they're really wanting to, where should they kind of go?

So the first thing, and nobody likes to hear this, is to start building your relationships first. It's very hard to go to a really popular podcast like, you know, Smart, Passive Income or whichever really big one you want to be on and say that, hey, I just started my business yesterday, I want to be on your show. You know, it doesn't work like, first of all, they has to be a story. There has to be something that is proven, where you have a track record, where you have some kind of transformation that either you have gone through yourself, let's say if you're just first starting out in your business, or you have clients that you're able to produce these results for. And then what I would recommend is start connecting with podcasts, for sure, with the smaller shows first. Now, I'm not talking about the tiny ones. And for those of you guys who have very new podcasts, just bear with me because in a podcast industry, there is even a phrase for this called pod fade. People who get excited about the idea of podcasts, but it's just general. With any content marketing, they do it for a couple of months, three months, and then they're done. And then you don't want to be in a position as the guest to do those interviews on those very new shows that really hard to have any audiences, if at all. And then potentially your interview never even gets published. One of the things that we always look at when I book my clients on shows is to make sure that it's at least a mid sized show or if it's smaller or if it's newer, at least three months that they've been consistently publishing. And even with the newer shows, what I like to look at is who is the person who is hosting it. Have they built a successful business before? If they have, that's a good sign because we know that they didn't build it. You know, they didn't win that business over, you know, in the lottery. They built it because of consistency. So that really helps screen out the good opportunities from the bad ones. So podcasts are really, really good if you have a niche business where it's not a mainstream thing like fitness or weight loss or something that would be interesting to the average person in the street. Podcasts are for sure really, really good for getting leads and sales. And then once you start booking those shows, start with the smaller ones and then work your way up to the bigger ones. But you can start already today with building your relationships Even with the biggest podcasters. And that just simply means like going on itunes, leaving a review there, joining their Facebook group, supporting them, reaching out. See how you can help them in some way without pitching them anything of what you do and start a friendship with them. And then when the time comes when really you have some traction and a proven track record and if you have a good story idea for their particular audience or good expertise that would be relevant, then pitch yourself for sure. So that would be the first thing, podcast. And then the second thing is that if you're looking for the credibility to have those big name media logos on your website and to be able to use that with what we talked about with in your content marketing and in your Facebook ads and everything, then I would look at tv, radio and then the magazines depending on your niche. If you're in the business space, obviously then the Forbes Inc. Entrepreneur, those kinds of things. Otherwise it might be like Elephant Journal, Mind Body, Green Medium is easy because you can get your own thing there. Thrive Global, which is Arianna Huffington's company, you know, after she sold a Huffington Post she started this month. So those types of publications that will really, really help as well.

Got it. Yeah. So podcasts, yeah. It seems like even in any niche, if you get niched down enough, I'm sure there's probably a show waiting around that has a pretty captive audience.

Oh yeah, And I hear this all the time from people who come to me initially to discuss working together. Like yeah, I did that podcast like two years ago and I'm still getting leads from it. That's fantastic because they live forever. It's very much unlike a TV show where you were in the morning news and then it's gone. Literally then I can minute it's not covered again. Although with that, even with the strategies that we talked about, you can get the clip and then use it in your ads. So there's ways to make that evergreen also.

Yeah. So what sort of advice do you have for people once they get on a podcast or get into the media? Because I mean, I can't even count how many times somebody's come on this podcast. And at the end we say, you know, where do you want to send people after listening to this episode? And they're like, oh, they could just go follow me on Twitter. Is that really the biggest benefit you're going to get out of this podcast? What do you recommend people do after getting these opportunities?

That is such a good question. So for anything that is online media, like a podcast or a YouTube show, Facebook Live interview, people actually expect you to have an offer for that audience. More often than not, it's a free offer. It's not like a JV webinar. But you will have an opportunity to recommend something where they can take the next step. And so the key to make this successful is, well, first of all, start with something that people actually want, right? So you're not testing this on the podcast, but you've already been running ads to it. I tried it organically. And you know that this is a piece of content that people want. And then make sure that whatever you are giving away, whether it's a downloadable cheat sheet or a video series or a quiz or whatever it might be, that the topic of that piece of content is relevant to what you talked about in the interview. And with podcasts, it's fairly easy because you have a long time, right? You have 20, 30 minutes or an hour to talk. So you can always bring in some of the talking points and then just see your content and say, by the way, we have a lot more information about this on our website. Like, you know, just like, for example, about publicity. I have a ton of videos on, on my website and on Facebook and everything. You guys can go there and get more. And then at the end when they ask specifically where can we go? Then you would give them the link to that landing page. Now this is very different from traditional media where, you know, in a TV interview you're not going to be able to say that, hey, go to this specific dot com, forward slash, whatever, but there you can give them your normal website or they will usually give it for you, just the homepage. And as long as it's optimized and you have a pop up there for some kind of lead capture thing and it's pixel so that you can retarget them, you'll be able to monetize that that way as well.

Gotcha. Now, is there any way for people to know which of these, you know, media outlets and podcasts were effective? I mean, do you, do you recommend people send, let's say when they go on a podcast, have, you know, a unique URL that they're sending for that podcast so they know which podcast they came from? Or do you just kind of recommend to have a place to send them and you just kind of know that if they come to this page, it came from all of your podcasting.

Right. So this is a really, really good question as well. And it really depends on where you're at in your business. If you already have a team and you have people who are helping you with a technical setup of separate coupon codes for every single different show or separate something that would be really unique to that, then it makes sense to actually put in that effort. If you already are, let's say at a multi seven figure level as an example. Right. If you're just starting out, you can go a little bit more generic because it's unlikely that you will be that it will pay for you to track so granularly something that actually doesn't move the needle to you too much until you start putting in the Facebook advertising piece to it. In that case, what I would recommend is focus more on the story that you want to share and then you can do general things like what you were saying suggesting a minute ago with let's say the cheat sheet goes here, the video thing goes there, or you give a unique link that is separate just for generally for podcasts or generally for YouTube for example, or TV.

Gotcha.

Okay.

Yeah, that's kind of how we started off too because every show we go on we always have an offer. Typically it's our traffic book, but that will probably change. And yeah, and it's worked really well. And you know, after that we have some opportunities that people, people can go deeper by the physical version of course and stuff like that. So that's been the way that like we monetize our appearances on podcasts specifically.

And you're going to ask them anyway, especially because you survey your audience from time to time, so you want to find out where they heard about you for the first time, which is not always accurate because people like kind of remember, yeah, I heard you on some show, they could be around, but at least it gives you an idea. And the other thing too is you can also ask people if you have high ticket offers, like for example, if you're doing coaching or a service business similar to mine, where you don't have thousands of clients at a time, you have just a handful because there is so much that you can do at capacity. You can just ask them that, hey, who introduced us? Or how did you hear about me first? And that way you can track it as well. And that works really well. Just one example that comes to mind, I was in a very, not a very small, but a smallish podcast a couple of years ago and one of the clients that I got who heard me on this show, he is a CPA and estate planning attorney and he manages literally over $500 million in assets for his clients. So like really a serious established business person. Heard me on a small podcast. So just as simple as, you know, he wrote a letter to me and everything in the mail and sent me his book and everything. Hey, I would like to work with you. And he told me what show he heard me on.

There you go. Yeah, we hear it all the time too. Even if we don't prompt it, you know, it'll be like I was looking at LinkedIn, I think, what, two days ago, Matt, we're like, oh, we haven't been in LinkedIn in a while, Whoops. And looked at the inbox and there were like six messages that were about, hey, I heard you on this show, or hey, I love this episode, you guys. I'm like, oh, whoops. Probably should have been checking this. But yeah, it's amazing how many connections have come from us being on other shows and just appearing in publicity anywhere.

Yeah, well, speaking of publicity, along those same lines, you mentioned TV and radio and that's something that we've never explored. Well, I was on a radio show once, but our buddy ran the radio show, so we had an in already. But relationships, that is true. That is true. I guess that just proves the point of building all these relationships. But how? Let's say somebody doesn't have connections in radio or tv, how would, how would somebody approach trying to get on radio or tv?

Okay, so one thing that you can do is just the same as we talked about is start building those relationships early. Now with news based media like TV and radio, it's not as important, although it's of course always good if they know you and see you as a reliable resource. But you would build that over time. So there, it's more important to tag into something that the media is already interested in. So something like an upcoming holiday or a local event or we just had Mother's Day, that would be a really good one. Or sometimes there is a theme for the month, like October is a breast cancer awareness month or April just now was a stress awareness month. And I had several of my clients who can speak to stress from a health perspective and we use that as a news peg. Or another one of my clients who there was a trending news story in the Canadian media all about how only 20% of women or less than 20% of women actually make it to the corporate boardroom. And my client, they business coach, so she can speak to that. But we were using something that the media is already interested in with a fresh angle. So here the key is ask yourself, not necessarily how can I promote my stuff here, but what are the skill sets that I have that make this service or product that I have possible. For example, if you're a sales expert, maybe some of the things that you're really, really good at is building rapport really quickly or gaining people's trust or handling objections or getting people to see your point of view. Those are the skills. Now, how can I create a strong new story with talking points that would be interesting to a general audience? Because we are not in the beginning. We're not talking about getting on Bloomberg or CNN News. You have to start with a local tv. So what can I do that would be interesting to the general public in a way that ties into a trending story or an upcoming event? Put the two together and pitch it that way.

Got it?

Yeah.

And I see that you've gone on many TV shows, news stations, what? But up there in LA a lot on your website, I saw. How do you. How do you know? Like, is there a way to gauge. Are you looking at specific stations or times? Obviously, the topics. That's a great one. I love that. Where you can kind of pair up your pitch to a theme that's happening. Is there a way that, like, do you actually, like, pick and choose specifically the station and all that stuff to try to get the results you're looking for, or is it just trying to be there?

So with tv, it's a little different than with podcasts, because with podcasts, you can of course choose any of, for example, any of the entrepreneur shows, there's literally thousands of them, versus with tv, there's maybe five stations within a city. Right. There's abc, NBC, cbs, you might have Fox maybe, depending on how big the city is. Right. So some might just have one. So what I would emphasize in that kind of a situation is that you are local experts and local would count within a couple of hours of driving distance. So if you're living in really small town, but you're just on the outskirts of a bigger city where they have a TV station, you could pitch for there? And then what I would look at is, how can I emphasize why it's important to do this story now? So you don't want to choose an evergreen topic, but something that has a fresh angle with something that's timely right now, and pitch it to all those local shows for now. And then you'll follow up with them in the following week, following two weeks to make sure that one of them actually books you. And then next time, maybe a month later, you will have another story idea and you'll pitch the remaining outlets and then cycle through them. And then as you start getting bookings, you can come back to the original one, pitch another story. Maybe like once every three months or so. If you're staying local, if you're traveling, if you already have speaking gigs booked, or for whatever other reason you're going to another city, then you can pitch yourself for that one as well.

Got it. And how do we get on Ellen?

That's a really good question, actually. So what you want to do, because with national TV shows, and we've had clients on national TV shows as well, the producer there is not in a position to actually book you unless they know for sure that you're, first of all, someone who can speak in sound bites, who has interesting content to that audience, and who's also able to work in a very, very fast environment. Because a TV interview is a minute and a half to two minutes. Right. Five minutes tops. And that includes the questions that you really have to know how to share your message in a very succinct and entertaining way. So what they look at when they start looking at who would be potential guests is what kind of TV have you done before? Okay, so this is why we are starting with your local market.

Got it. So the local market is kind of like the stepping stones to getting to that someday.

Correct. The only exception would be, of course, if you were eyewitness news and some horrible breaking news story.

Sure, yeah. So who, when you're going for TV and radio, is there a specific person there? I know you just mentioned producer. For someone like Ellen, they don't actually do the booking. Is it a producer you're looking for for TV and radio?

Yeah. So usually it's either the producer, the segment producer, or the executive producer that you want to talk to, depending on the show and how many producers they have working on that particular media outlet. And then the other thing for radio. Radio also, it's usually. So this is for TV and for radio, it would be either a producer or a news director that you want to reach out to.

Gotcha.

Now, is it, is it ever a good idea to purchase pr? And let me preface this. We've actually had a few opportunities come up in the past where people have approached us and said, hey, I can get you into Forbes. It's going to cost you X amount, and we'll get an article written up on you in Forbes. We've had that kind of scenario pop up a few times. We've never actually done it. But I'm curious, what are your thoughts on actually Paying for getting in the media.

My thoughts are don't walk or run. So this is typically a scam. First of all, let me just clarify. There is paid media that is actually legit versus paid media. That is the fishy time. What you described sounded more like the fishy time. But let me quickly. So with TV they do have sponsored content where it exactly looks like news, but they will say that this segment was brought to you by such and such company. So that's something that usually you can do in a smaller TV station locally and you will pay for that spot and they will produce it as though it was real news. But legally they are obliged to say that this was paid content. So this is something where you have a very, very competitive topic. Like let's say April 15th is the tax deadline and all the CPAs are pitching themselves for the station. So then the one that is actually willing to the sponsored content, the station is going to go with that rather than interviewing them for free because they already have a lot of that type of really legitimate experts might as well make money on it. So that's the thing where you can do it in a legit way. But generally speaking, I recommend against it because the whole point of media is to build trust. And in order to build trust, it's imperative that you didn't just buy that spot, you really are doing it based on merit. What you described there with the Forbes articles, actually Forbes, Forbes and Entrepreneur and all these big business publications, they do have a section where you can advertise in the magazine and it may look like an article, but it's going to say at the top that it's an advertisement. They have to legally say that. What you're talking about though is where they have writers who are columnists who write for that magazine who have been pre approved already and they have to still pitch the topic to the editor. But most of the time it just goes through without anything. But they don't get paid for it. Forbes has changed just recently because before they had a lot of contributing writers that were not paid. Now they let a lot of them go and now they pay everybody. But then also those people are evaluated based on traffic and how many clicks they're getting for the article. So that's something to consider as well when you're pitching your story. Like really? Is it newsworthy? Is it something that people want? Right.

As far as the unpaid contributing writers making money on the side, that's a really, really not even gray, but more like a black area because. Because it's Actually against the terms of the publication, they've gotten approved for that column for providing content based on merit with whoever or whatever they want to cover there, not for secretly getting paid for it. Actually, any of these publications could legally get in trouble. It's a liability for them because they're not disclosing that this is technically an ad. And plus they're not even profiting from it. So it doesn't make sense at any level. And very often these guys don't get found out and then the column entirely, or the article at least entirely gets removed. Now you're out of $10,000 and you actually don't have anything to show for it. The other scammy way that sometimes people I've seen do it is where they just do a press release through one of the paid press release services. And they say that now I've been featured in, you know, abc and actually they never had an interview. So that's. That's not the way to do it. You actually want to have real interview.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead. I was gonna say it's just kind of the difference between native advertising, which is okay and widely accepted as long as you're disclosing, and earned media and basically purchasing earned media. If you purchased it, it wasn't earned media.

Right. It's an advertisement. Yeah. And that's. We would have got a deal. Matt. That was 2K is what we were pitched.

Yeah. Somebody pitches 2K to be in Forbes.

No, but that's true. Yeah. And we were. This seems not right. Oh, yeah, we asked around. We're like, oh, yeah, it's against the terms. I'm like, yeah, I could see why.

Well, if you're doing something media worthy, then, you know, contact the media and let them know and they'll decide if it's media worthy or not.

Exactly.

Absolutely. And that's the other thing. Forbes actually has a whole other section which is a separate company called Forbes Coaches Council, where a lot of entrepreneurs are able to apply to that, assuming that they have a team least a seven figure business. And I forget what their exact guidelines are, but they have a certain set of criteria that you have to pass through and then pay to be a part of this Coaches Council, where now then they guarantee that you are published say five times a year or something like that. Like you have a few articles a year. But the thing is, because it's in the page side, it's actually not Forbes. Right. It just sounds like it. They're affiliated with them and it's called Forbes Coaches Council, but it's not the actual Forbes, Forbes magazine. So, you know, so it's, it doesn't a lot because the average consumer wouldn't know. But anybody just you look in the, in the URL, in the address bar and you see that it's not the actual real Forbes magazine and it doesn't get ever shown in the main website. So if you're looking for the big level of credibility and being featured as a lead article, it's not going to happen with that. And the other thing too is being featured in these types of outlets in this like side dish outlet.

You'll kind of have a real hard time with actually ever getting being featured in Forbes because they already saw you over there and they know that you're willing to pay for it.

Gotcha. Yeah. So I'm kind of curious. It's so I've heard. We have friends, we know people who have been on things like Ellen and like the Good Morning America and the Today show and things like that. And you know, they did it to coincide with a book launch or something to that effect. And, and they've, they've pretty much everybody I've talked to that have been on these nationally televised shows have said that it didn't move the needle on their book sales nearly as much as they thought it would and that things like podcasting, like podcasts, actually move the needle way more for them. So I'm curious, when somebody does get national attention, what is the best way to leverage that media? How do you make sure you're getting the best mileage out of that appearance?

I like it. So this is what you have to consider. So for example, if you're on the Ellen show or on the Today show, you're going to reach a couple of million people who have most likely for the most part have never ever heard of you. Right. So they're basically totally cold. Now, you might have excellent media training where you are really entertaining and a wonderful guest. And the book is something that appeals to the masses. It really is the kind of book like, like we talked about earlier with weight loss or fitness or something that a lot of people would be interested in, or maybe a personal development book, something like that, where it really is interesting not just to a small section of the population. You will definitely see a spike in your traffic to your website and then it's up to you and your sophisticated digital marketing strategies to follow up through them because all they saw was one time. It's just like when you have a physical product in an E commerce store. Or what, you have a 1% conversion. It's not like 99% of your visitors will go away after 1 and then you retarget them and start getting them back. Especially if they gone through even to the step in your funnel where they would maybe put the product into the car. So if it's something like that, where they have a book launch, what I would look at is how can I leverage this? Take that video clip and now use it as a Facebook ad and retarget everybody who already expressed some level of interest through your Facebook fans, through your email list or anything else, and then put this Ellen show episode or Today show episode in front of them to get those guys to buy. The other thing that you can do is take this video clip and a couple of others ones that you have together and make a media reel out of it. First of all, put it on your website. It's a huge credibility builder. Secondly, you can use it to get speaking gigs at really high level conferences or if you're the kind of speaker who likes to speak at Fortune 500 companies. This is something that will really, really help with that as well. Because they see you as someone super, super credible.

That's super smart. Now with that, is there any sort of copyright implications? Like what is the legalities of using clips from something like Ellen or the Today show on your website?

Okay, so I'm not a lawyer.

But actually if you think about it, it's the benefit of the show. It benefits the show as well. The more you advertise it and promote it, the more views they will get generally to the show as well. So I've never had an issue with that as far as putting it up on my YouTube channel or Facebook or on my website or anything like that. None of my clients had either, because it actually helps the show as well. I will say that one thing that actually got pulled down once from Facebook was do you guys remember when United Airlines had a huge scandal where they dragged a doctor up?

Oh, yeah.

So it was a huge trending national news story. And I went on TV in New York City to talk about it. Like, how can the airline handle it from a publicity perspective? Now in the B roll, while they were interviewing me, they showed that viral clip that one of the passengers taped with his cell phone. And so that was part of the story and that was embedded in the entire interview as a video clip. So I put it up on Facebook. It was living there fine for like a year. Then suddenly I get a notification from Facebook that they, the company that bought up that viral news clip, that little insert in it of the passengers. They were claiming copyright.

It wasn't the news station, so someone owned that clip. And then they're like, hey, you know.

And so I responded, you know, that I disputed it and I said that, look, I was interviewed on TV about this specific story. They used it on such and such channel. It was on the CW and Pix 11. And this was a legitimate news interview that I was interviewed for on this story. And then they let it go and they let me keep it.

Wow, that's cool. So basically, yeah, you're taking any clips that you find published online. Do you ever have to reach out to these local stations or anywhere to get a clip?

You can most of the time when they confirm that they want to do an interview, they will say if they don't have it or it's not available, they'll say that we don't provide clips. Whatever, put your DVR ready. Usually what we do is I tell my clients, don't worry about it because I'm going to reach out to them on your behalf. After you've done the interview, what they want to avoid is the guests are hanging around there, the producers have a lot of things to do, and then you're just like, oh, can you burn my dvd? It doesn't work that way, but usually you can get it. And if they're not able to give it to you or they don't put it on the website, where you could just do a screenshot of a screenflow video capture. The other thing is that there's a lot of these paid services like cision or.

TV news clips. I think it's called for 60 glove, 60 bucks you can and tell them the time when you were on that interview, the time and date and the station, and they'll be able to pull it up and get it to you.

Ah, so they have records of all that stuff.

Yeah, got it. Everything is being recorded everywhere.

That's true. And now podcasts are more so by Google and like we're just reading how they're going to start transcribing and basically molding podcasts into search results. So anything you say here.

That'S a really good, good point too. For the guys listening here is doing a lot of interviews. Podcast especially is really useful for your SEO over time as well.

Absolutely.

If you look up your names, you guys, or my name, just put it in. The website will be the first one in the social media pages. But after that you see page after page after page of podcast Because a lot of people put in your bio, your transcript of the interview, a little bit about you. There's an actual webpage created, not just the audio on itunes.

That's true. Yeah. It's an amazing way to grow a brand for yourself, even just to look credible. It's like get on like 10 shows, 10, 20 shows. It doesn't take much. And yeah, sooner or later, once those things are published, give it maybe a month or two, it's like you're gonna see yourself popping up all over the place. And maybe any previous things, maybe some old pictures or something from prior business days. You're like, I don't really want those in Google to reputation management.

Yeah, we actually, we set up Google alerts for, for our brand name, our podcast name, and our own personal names. So we get Google Alert emails that tell us anytime we're mentioned on a site or. A lot of podcasters.

I'm just gonna say it, a lot of them are lazy. They won't even email us when our episode goes live. Which I think is just a shame because you're missing out on a potential marketing opportunity from us. But saying that we do get the Google alerts. So we do see when a lot of our episodes go live and we do a weekly roundup email that we, we just mail our whole list. So whenever we go on somebody else's podcast, we actually mail our list with, here's all of the shows we were featured on this week.

I love that. I wish all my clients did that.

So we try to give a value add to anybody who brings us on their podcast.

Yeah. And you know, as a podcast, it's really a huge opportunity as well because I feel like it goes either way. Either they completely forget to even tell you or it goes months and months goes by before they even publish it. And then they, they just mention it once on Facebook instead of actually capitalizing on it and sending the guest an email that, hey, it's coming out next week. Hey, it's coming out tomorrow. You know, and then on the day off and thank you so much, and then tagging them multiple times. You know who does it really, really well. Do you guys know Dan Kushel from Gross?

Yeah. Yeah, he's been on the show. We've been on his show.

He's a beast with his follow ups.

I did his show, I think maybe a year and a half ago or something. To this day I still get tagged because he, because they've created so many image quotes and like different pieces of content that they just constantly Push out on Twitter and for all of their guests, not just for me. And it's really, really incredible.

It's true.

And it makes you feel good. And also, as the person, like in this case, Dan is top of mind for me. So anytime I have something that would be or someone that would be a good introduction to Dan, not only as a guest for his show, but maybe something for his. One of his products or services, I'll definitely make that connection for him. Him.

Do you get the direct mail from him as well?

Yes.

Yeah, like he's. He's everywhere.

He's on top of it.

That's what we're actually. Matt and I have been scheming up some ways to follow up with our guests in many ways already we're sending T shirts to a lot of them and are pretty much everyone. But, you know, there's a whole process. But we're thinking, you know, postcards and all these like little. Little gad. Custom things we'll have made. I'm not going to say too much because, you know, spoil the fun, but yeah, the follow ups.

Can I get a T shirt?

What's that?

Can I get a T shirt?

Of course you can. Look at that. See, that's how it's done right there.

I don't know if you noticed, but when we do, when we book our guests for our show in the actual intake form, we ask for an address and shirt size.

Oh. Oh, I didn't remember that. I guess I must have filled it out.

You definitely did. Yeah. We have your address and your T shirt size.

It's part of the intake form. So we actually, we send stuff to our guests. I mean, we. We want to make it so people want to be on our show as much as possible. And when we go on other people's shows, we want to make it so people really want us on their shows. So we market the heck out of our shows. We thank the heck out of our guests that come on our shows. When we go on other people's shows, we do the same stuff. We try to send them cool stuff. We try to promote the episode that they brought us on. You know, we do whatever we can to make it a win. Win all around every single, single time. And I think that's kind of the reason we get on so many podcasts and we have so many great guests on our show.

Yeah. And then this is part of building relationships because it's not only like pinging everybody every five minutes on Facebook, it's actually leading with action. So what you guys are doing, and what Dan is doing, it's really building relationships with people.

Yeah, Dan's a great one to model, too. That's doing it. Right.

We actually got a lot of inspiration from him specifically. So I love that you brought him up.

Up.

Yeah, he's just a good guy.

We had the opportunity to spend a day in a mastermind with him, and it was just a mastermind of pure podcasters. There was, what, 50 podcast? 48 podcasters. And it was just a mastermind of 48 podcasters. And out of all everybody there, I think Dan was one of the most impactful, like, here's the way to do it kind of guys that we just took the most from.

Yeah.

And his is also a radio show, a terrestrial radio show, so he covers all bases.

Oh, I didn't even know that. I didn't know that.

I know, because I guess on his show and it always has to be on a Wednesday at 10am Arizona time.

Yeah, he's out.

I do remember him taking, like, commercial breaks in the middle of the show, so now it makes sense.

So it's, like, syndicated then, huh?

Yeah. That's interesting. That's another question I've always wondered. Maybe, maybe you know the answer to this. Maybe this isn't your expertise, but I've always been curious how podcasters actually end up getting their shows syndicated over the radio. Is that something that you know how they do or something you're involved in at all?

I don't know. I know a couple of people who have done that, so I'm happy to make an introduction for you guys if you want to learn about this, to do this for yourself. Like, for example, Jim Beach. I know. That's it. From the school of startups. Do you guys know him?

We know Jim. Yep. Yep. We haven't been on his show or anything, but we do know him.

You know what? His show is syndicated in 24 different AM&FM stations, as well as all the online platforms. So he has now over 200,000 listeners a day for his show.

Yeah, no, he's. He's crushing it. It's what we learned. I'm. I'm not gonna.

He's got a pretty sweet sponsorship with Wells Fargo, too. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. It's not a secret. It's like you can hear it on his show.

No, he's. He's doing well. I think it's all the radio syndication part of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if we'd ever get syndicated on the radio because we Cussed like sailors on a lot of our episodes. But you know what?

That's. That's something. I'm glad you brought that up because that's good for. For our listeners to know as well as a guest. Okay, so this is something that just again, comes back to legalities. Besides, the personal taste of the show host is, you know, the radio shows are regulated by the fcc, so you can't actually. Fcc, so you can't actually say things like that because that station is gonna get fined. And depending on how big of a market they're airing their show at, depending on what time of day it is, like how many listeners they really expect, it could be as much as $50,000 per occurrence.

Wow.

10 times on.

This is why I love podcasting, because at the time, it's not regulated.

Yeah. And I don't think radios will be too happy with us with our current. The radios. Yeah, I don't think they'd be too happy with our current format just with the way we talk sometimes.

It's another thing too. And as a guest, it's good to know, just as a courtesy, as the person who is hosting the show, even if. If it's a podcast where technically there. There is no laws or regulations against it. Just ask, what is that audience like? I know a lot of YouTubers are really super aware of that as well, because Google is so family friendly. They will even be proud if somebody says something like that. Even though they're not required, but they want to do well by their audience and then also for their own search results. So one thing that you can do is like, I have, for example, one of my past clients is the one who f bombs are flying out every second of her mouth, but when her kids are around, she's talking like a little angel. So it's just a matter of self awareness.

How does she do that?

That sounds like. That sounds like me, actually. I've got two little kids too. And like, when. When it's when I'm in business mode and we're meeting, networking with people and we're on the podcast, we're doing stuff like that. I have no filter. When I'm around the kids, the filter's on.

Yeah. No, I guess it's just some embedded thing in us all.

Yeah.

But I do that.

I do have this theory about podcasting and radio that we are gonna just over time just see them merge. They're just gonna become one industry over time. Because you're already kind of seeing it where podcasts are getting syndicated over the Radio. You're already seeing pretty much every radio station on the planet is repurposing their radio episodes into podcasts now. And I think what you're going to find is you're just going to find that those two industries are just going to eventually merge, and it's just going to be one industry.

But I'd be really curious to see how it goes, because there is something to be said, you know, for traditional training as far as being a broadcast journalist. Right. A certain level of skills to do interviews that is required on radio, that is maybe not something that is a requirement for podcasters, which is cool in a sense that everybody can do a podcast if you just decide it's really inexpensive and fairly simple to set up on a technical standpoint. Right. It's not like you have to have a big studio and the whole shebang for doing a radio show at the same time. Not just the interview skills, but also, for example, what you were saying with Dan doing the commercial break breaks.

Four times during that one hour that he interviewed you. That's something that is also a skill as an interviewer, knowing that in the next five seconds, I gotta go to a commercial break, so I'm not gonna let my guest go on and ramble. So that's something where I think it's possible that the two will merge, but podcasters have to step up their game to be able to participate in that and become really, really good interviewers.

Challenge accept.

Accepted.

No, but, Dan, you're right.

Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah, Dan, I do remember now. He was extremely polished, and I was just thinking of his style, and you just reminded me he. It was very deliberate. He's polished. He knows what he's doing. He has this schedule. He knows when the commercials are coming. We had no. I mean, we knew they were. They would come, but we're like, okay, yeah. No, he had led us well, you.

Can tell he knew the timing of everything very well, and he knew when to switch topics and when to move on. And, yeah, it was good.

I have a question about your thoughts on how, like, when someone goes on TV or any of these other formats that aren't podcasts, where it's a long form, uncut media, typically, like you said, obviously having a good story, having a good transformation moment or something to relate that way. But the whole sound bite talk, like, how does someone train to speak in soundbite? Do you have some principles around that?

It's just practice. I have two tips there. One is just very quickly, the technicality of a sound bite. Is basically they ask you a question and you answer the question in a way that part of your response includes the question as well. So they ask you, where did you go to school? I'm not going to say in Paris. I'm going to say I went to school in Paris. And so you repeat it a little bit or I went to such and such school in Paris, as an example. And the reason you do that is because you make the editor's job so much easier with cutting out content that they can then use for teasers, they can use for later repeats because they can take that entire sentence that makes sense without the context of having to watch the entire interview.

Got it?

Right. That's important because once you start using these TV clips that to pitch yourself for other TV stations or national news media and they see that you're well trained, you're entertaining, you're not looking at the camera, you're looking at your interviewer, et cetera, all of those things are important so that they have the confidence to book you on those really, really big outlets. And then the other thing is, as far as the content, you're not going to be able to share your whole story of this is how I came to be and this is my big long entrepreneurial journey in a two minute TV interview. And that's not the point. Anyway, what you want to do is think about what is my goal with this interview? Am I going to talk about a particular event that is coming up? Maybe you have a conference that is in town and you're promoting ahead of time and local TV stations. Or maybe you have a book that's coming out and you want people to buy. Of course with that kind of thing you will be able to have the book there. Or if you have a physical product, often they will include that as well because they like when it's not just a talking head interview, but there is something that's visual to that. And then what you want to do is think about, okay, these are my goals. Here are the three to five talking points that I want to cover. These are the most important things that will be important for that audience. Not only so that they get educated and they get entertained, but also that they want to take the next step with you. So it just goes back to asking yourself ahead of them, what do they need to hear and believe in order to want to move forward and how can I help them go in that direction.

Got it. I like that. That's perfect. Good advice there.

Well, before we wrap up, I want to ask a little bit about your business and sort of what you look for in your clients. Because I know you mentioned that you kind of work with a very sort of small group of clients so that you can really work hard for the small handful of clients that you do have. What sort of criteria are looking for, what makes the ideal client for your actual service business where you help people get on more shows and get in the meeting?

Yeah, so I work with experts who are coaches, consultants, speakers, authors, thought leaders. Usually they have a very, very strong Internet marketing component to their business. It may not be just limited to courses because like for example, with Ryan Levesque, who you guys are going to interview in just a little bit today, he's one of my clients. He has a book, but he also has an online course and live events and a software product and a mastermind, all those different things. It's important that that part of the business is dialed in before they come to me or before they hire a publicist. In general, it's really, really important that you have something where you can monetize it. Right. If you just have your freebie and it's your very first venture into entrepreneurship, it's not bad to have the credibility and to have those interviews, but you're not going to immediately monetize it if you don't have a solid business structure on the back end. So with Ryan, I work with him on his last book launch for Ask. We worked on it for 11 months and, you know, he ended up making over $1.8 million per year to his business directly from the podcast interviews that we booked him on. And it wasn't just the books, obviously, it's the back end sales. So ideally it's people similar to Ryan, he's a good example, who have a strong business, who have a really good track record, good reputation, they have a good story to share and they're eager to get more credibility or they want to build buzz for an upcoming launch.

Gotcha. Cool. Yeah. And thank you for introducing us to Ryan, by the way.

That's super cool.

Yeah, we're stoked to have him. We've loved his books too. So he's going to be a good fit here for the audience. And I'm curious about, like, just for so. Well, actually, where's the best place for folks to reach out and learn more about you? I want to make sure.

Yeah, you can connect with me through my website. It's born to influence.com b o r n t o born to influence.com which is, by the way, I realize now that sometimes I had to give out my email address in stores and something like, bunch of influence is so easy for our industry. And then everywhere else, it's like, what spelling?

For me, that's true.

I've done even with Evergreen profits, I'm like, it's just two words, but still it's like, wait, what? It's not Gmail.

The worst is when you have entrepreneur in your business name. Because if you're not an entrepreneur, nobody knows how to spell it.

Yeah, that is true.

Some of the things that you can do. There's a lot of free content on our website as well. And there is a quiz that you can can take to see whether or not publicity is right for you at this stage. And it's super, super easy. It's 12 questions, very fun. And it will give you a really good idea of what makes sense for you as far as building your credibility and getting in the media.

That's awesome. Yeah. So we'll link that in the show notes. Born to influence dot com. I'm curious, what big thing or challenging venture are you working on yourself? Are you trying to shape something new in the PR world? Or is there something else that you're personally really kind of.

Yeah, personally. So I've been doing yoga for the last couple of months, which all my life I hated to exercise, but I'm determined to get my splits back, so I'm really going for it. And I started to work it up and now I'm actually taking up contortion training.

Whoa. Contortion training? Really?

Yeah. Yes.

Wow. That's amazing. What goes in. So yoga is a first good start, it seems like. Get all bendy.

Yeah. I mean, it was good for a couple of months. I actually am taking up this training not only because I want to really learn contortion, but also because I want to do it safely. I've had an injury from a dirt biking accident a couple of years ago. And so anyway, the coach that I found is really world class and she works with a physiotherapist who work with the Chinese Olympic team and Cirque du Soleil. And so they'll be able to create a custom training plan for me to do it in a way, you know, if just as the example with the splits, if you watch YouTube videos on how to get your splits, most of them, what they teach you is, is to stretch this way, stretch that way, to relax into it and let gravity do the work. And that's actually something where you can really set yourself up for injury and so the trainers that I'm going to be training with are people who teach you how to always flex or engage the opposing muscles of the ones that you want to stretch. So it's a much safer way. And also you're building strengths for later when you want to do more complicated tricks where you really need a lot of body strength to be able to do it.

Wow. I'm still just getting over the fact of contortioning because every time I see a contortionist, like a professional, I'm just like, I want to go throw up or something.

Like I just now going to perform with it. But it's just that I like to see what my body can do.

It's impressive. I mean, I'm just like, I don't know how that's possible. I am not bendy, but maybe there's hope for me if I ever wanted to. The yoga thing though, I'm all about the yoga idea.

There's a question that comes right from our buddy Brad, Brad Costanzo. And he asked it on all of his podcasts, but I don't think he's recorded a podcast in like three months. So we're kind of stealing it and taking it over. But is there any, is there any sort of nut that you're trying to crack in your business right now that maybe us or our audience can help you with?

Oh, you know what? Yes. Talk to Brad and tell him to come back and do his show.

We harass him almost daily and it doesn't work. So maybe he needs to hear from other people. Hey, listeners, like just reach out to Brad. He's had a, you know, bacon wrap business. Just harass him.

We actually had lunch with Brad yesterday, so we were giving him crap as.

Recently as yesterday, but you know the one, it's not really a nut to crack, but it's like continually continuous development and effort. I'm always looking to connect with more podcasters and people who write for the business publications like Forbes and Income Entrepreneur. I like to develop those relationships further and connect with those types of folks.

Awesome. Yeah, we could do that. And anyone listening, definitely reach out to Esther. Go check her out at the website born to influence.com. that's right. And go help her out. And we'll help you out too, of course.

Awesome. Well, I think that's, you know, really just another wrap up question. What's a good book that you just find yourself referring to often or recommending to others?

Yeah, a really good one that completely changed my life is Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi, do you guys know that book?

Yep.

I have not read it.

It's all about how to build your relationships, how to connect with other people. And I'm a super introvert person. Like until three months ago, I literally used to live in the. Live in the desert in California. You're an introvert? Yes.

I leave the house for four days. I don't leave well, you sound like me.

That's how I am.

I just, I love it and I, I love that you're an introvert introvert in that you're doing this work.

You know, I love connecting with people, you know, in either in person or through online. When it's a small group, like one or two people or maybe four or five. But when it's a big event, I'm happy to go and speak at conferences and I spoke at like six events last year. But I don't like the environment of having to be amongst hundreds of people's people for days and that really exhausts me. And I think a lot of people mix up being introvert with being with this in the sense of being exhausted when your energy gets drained. When you're around a lot of people versus being shy, that's a little bit of a different thing. Sometimes they can overlap, but it's really not the same thing.

That is true.

Yeah. As a fellow introvert, I agree. Yeah, I'm the same way when I go to, when I go to a conferences and there's a lot of people around, I just, I. It drains me. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy networking and meeting more people. I mean, I would say I'm a fairly well connected person despite being an introvert and it. And you know, from a connection perspective, you probably have 10x the connection that I do, but. Very cool.

That's cool. It's fascinating. So never eat alone. We'll link that as well. And anything else, Esther, before we wrap up here.

Well, thank you guys so, so much. I really enjoyed doing this interview with you and I really can't wait to share it when it comes out. And I'm very, very much looking forward to working with you guys more in the future as well. Maybe we can have more guests on the show than too.

Yeah, we will for sure. Thank you very much for everything you've done for us and your time here too.

So thank you.

We'll do it again. Talk to you soon.

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