Gennaro Cuofano - How To Reverse Engineer Business Models

We're even. Look, it's just really cool because you'll, you'll literally analyze, you know, like the biggest brands of the world and what their business model is. And. And of course, I'm sure you're ranking for a lot of this stuff, so it seems like you get a lot of attention for this because I think people are genuinely curious as well. It's like, how does Lyft make money? Or Uber or Apple, you know, we might know. But then you dig in with all these crazy models and you're like, oh, okay. It seems like a really good learning experience that you're putting out there.

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float Shark with your boy.

My boy, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. Hey. Hello.

Hi there. Welcome back.

Hey, I'm back. Been here the whole time, actually. Yeah, dude, this one. So ever since you the listener. Ever since we hung up with our guest today, which we'll present him in a second here, we've been nerding out on his, like, going deep on this thing.

Oh my gosh. His website is like my new favorite website.

Yeah. And you'll hear us nerd out also on the podcast about it. And you're probably gonna be like, what the hell? Are they so cool about this website? Yeah. Cause this is like deep, deep, deep, deep, deep research that this guy does on every big brand in the world, basically, so you can actually understand what's happening. So you can find cool things to use in your own business and just curiosity in general too. Yeah, it's so cool.

So today's guest is Gennaro from four Week NBA. That's actually spelled F O U, so it's not the number four, but four spelled out. So 4WeekMBA.com. And basically what he does on this website is he looks at businesses and he reverse engineers them. He looks at the financial statements, he digs into how they're getting their traffic using various SEO tools and various analytics tools. And he just like really does a very, very, very deep dive into these businesses and then writes up these exhaustive blog posts about their entire business model. Where their revenues are coming from, where their traffic's coming from. You know, where he sees it going. Where like everything about these businesses is sort of laid out in these mega blog posts.

Yeah. And the cool thing is that it's not biased. So he actually, he's very objective with all of his findings. He does an immense amount of research. He just consumes content like crazy. And like, we all consume content. Like, Matt, you've been going down the rabbit hole a lot. Even more so on researching very specific things like trends and customer behavior and objections for products that we promote as affiliates and things like that. That's essentially what four week MBA has just available to you around business models. Literally. And it's actually linked in the show notes. So when you check that out@evergreenprofits.com, check out the business models, there's a link there to four week mba and it's like this ongoing business model list and it's really cool. There's everything in freemium models, affiliate marketing's in there. Like all the subscription based stuff. And there's like, I don't know how many. But he's like, I just keep putting business models on there.

Yeah.

And just imagine how many new concepts or connections you could combine. What you're doing now. Or maybe like you've been hitting a brick wall with your model, but you read something on there, you're like, holy crap. Didn't even think about that. And maybe your customers have been asking about it, but you don't know how to build the model. Well, it's right there.

Yeah. I mean we recently did like a therapy session all about the sort of affiliate marketing business model and how that's kind of the path we're going down. And just us digging around on four week NBA, we start to learn like, holy crap. There's a lot more affiliate businesses than you realize. And some of the businesses you don't even realize are affiliate marketing companies are like multi billion dollar companies that earn all of their revenue through affiliate marketing. We're like, holy shit. Like this is huge.

Well, let's talk about actually like what. The one that we nerded out on was booking.com. we had no clue that booking.com also owns kayak, owns rentalcars.com OpenTable. OpenTable. Like basically a lot of travel and like entertainment type booking sites. Yeah. And they're not all like this, but not all of their revenue comes from this. But essentially they're affiliate marketing businesses, but they have some services, upsells partnerships. But the whole thing is like, holy crap. Like here is a big business. And this is just for Matt and I's perspective because you know, we're really into content and then essentially, you know, pairing someone up with something that's beneficial for us, mainly marketing tools. But we could see in this whole like, wow, I had no. And then he just breaks down just like, okay, here's where their advertising's coming from. Here's where their revenue's Coming from, obviously these are public companies, so you can get very granular on this.

Yeah, I mean, we Learned that, like, booking.com spends on about $4 billion per year on direct response advertising and only about 400 million a year on actual brand advertising with television and radio and places like that.

Yeah, I would have thought it would.

Have been the opposite, actually.

Right. It's things like that. You're like, cool. And obviously these are big numbers, big businesses. But hey, there's a lot to learn from these guys because they're obviously spending a lot of money on it, so it's probably working fairly well.

Well, we're talking a lot about his website and how he does an amazing job at reverse engineering all these. But what we actually talk about on this episode with him is how you could actually do this analysis yourself. We kind of dive deep with him on how he goes about doing the analysis. Like where he gets the data from, where he gets the information, how he organizes the information. You know, his. His sort of methodology behind publishing the information. And so if you wanted to do similar things yourself and reverse engineer businesses so that you can, you know, maybe find gaps in your own business that you can implement by doing this data mining on other businesses, you. You can. So that's really the main topic of this show, is how to reverse engineer other business models. But saying that he does a freaking good job of it. So definitely subscribe to his blog as well.

Yeah. I mean, it's so much free content. He has some courses in there as well. Yeah, it's how to analyze business models. You could see a lot of his inspiration. He gives the formula in this podcast. But also, like, the why, like, why do you want to do that? Sure. You might be curious, like, what's this blogger doing? But it's really cool because. No, you want to analyze someone for a purpose of your own business. So it's like, oh, what kind of marketing strategies seem to be working for this blog, for instance?

Yeah.

And then, like, there are key things that he actually identifies first before going to, like, marketing or content type or whatever. Like, there's other things that kind of come before that.

Yeah.

So he'll line all that out. Also, there's a big thing because we've been talking to a lot of folks about this stuff is just the consumption of content and how you organize your content and your thoughts. And so we get into learning on it a bit. Yeah, yeah, we. Well, and just the concept of the learning and the teaching and the writing and the, you know, how it really solidifies your understanding around topics. So we dig into his philosophies on that.

Yeah, Learning versus internalizing sort of thing. So we dive into that. And we took notes on this one too.

Of course we did. Yeah.

You can get them by texting the word computer to 38470.

Yes. Get that phone out and text away.

38470 text comp. You screwed it up. That's not how the jingle goes.

Maybe it does. This time we're making a new 170 text comp.

You're screwing up.

Oh, man. Okay, don't write text, just text the word comp.

38470 comp. 38470 comp. See, if you add text comp then you can't keep it in a 4, 4 timing signature and it makes it more difficult.

You're such a music nerd. All right, so you could text get the notes for free or you can go to hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m P and get them when this episode goes live. They are free for two weeks for this episode.

Yes. And all episodes that come out.

Yes. So got two week window. You'll get something for free. Check it out. We of course have all these notes. We always send them out monthly in a physical form in the newsletter, EGP letter and we have a whole membership site. Yeah, it's cheap. It's really cheap.

$15 a month.

Yes. We pretty much give you everything and massive time savings. You're always going to be in the know of all the cool stuff. So sign up.

Yes.

It's worth it.

Do that. Let's go talk to Gennaro, make it.

Worth it for you on to learn about business trends and things. Hey, Gennaro, welcome to the show. How you doing?

Thank you, thank you. Very happy to be here and all good. I'm actually connecting from Italy so I'm a, you know, late, but I try to be awake for the whole episode.

You were saying you're up till at least two every night.

Exactly.

Yes. It's still the middle of the day for you.

We're just warming your brain up for you.

Yeah, exactly.

So Matt and I have been nerding out on your website for our MBA for four weeks. Sorry. Jesus. Four week mba. Oh my God. I don't know how you do it. And you also have another high level position that you have at a company as well. So I think this is going to be fascinating to see how you're producing all this content, but also the theme behind it is absolutely fascinating. The way you come about things.

Absolutely, yeah.

So the big thing, we'll be covering a lot of business models for folks on the show. I think that'll be really cool because you have this interesting and you just have this perspective that you're bringing to the world through four week mba and you give away all this so much for free. I mean, this content is literally a masterclass of business models and how to apply it for yourself. So I think where did. Let's kick it off with a. I know your background's interesting. Let's get into that a little briefly to start things out and then we'll dig into how four week MBA came to be.

Yeah, absolutely. I probably start when I was 15, but then the story will be too long.

Let's cut it short. But you know, just to give you a very short story, you know, I always had this thing that I wanted to be financially free. And for me, being an entrepreneur meant, you know, actually being able to actually become free in a way. But the funny thing is that the more I was looking for answers, like the more I was trying to understand how do I become like an entrepreneur, how do I become financially free and the more I started to look into the academic world because, you know, my parents are both like a doctor and a professor. So for me it was like a normal journey just to look into academia, university and these sorts of things. So I went to the university because it's a normal journey here in Italy. So I went to the university and then got an mba. And you know, as I was going forward and gaining more knowledge though, I founded myself actually drifting away from becoming an entrepreneur. And you know, when I realized that actually that's where the four week came to be. So I wanted to actually build a sort of business school that would be quite actionable. So even though you still learn a lot of high level stuff that, you know, understand the business world, especially the digital business world, still those are things that you can really act upon. So I was trying to really do something on.

With a bit of individualistic logic because I wasn't like, you know, I'm going to build, I'm going to help a million people get the business education. It was more like, how do I build the kind of business school which, you know, I wish I had when I was doing it because, you know, I was learning a lot of things, but at the same time there was very few about new digital business models and the new tech companies. I mean, I'm sure now many MBA programs cover a lot of this Stuff but back then in 2012 there was very little to that. And actually I was going through like my, you know, emphasis was in corporate finance. And this is probably the farthest thing it was, at least back then, the farthest thing from digital marketing and stuff. Today it's closer because you know, when you look at all stocks and stuff, the tech companies are the most, the hottest companies out there. But you know, back in 2010 11, it was more, you know, I was more focused on the really financial side. Indeed for me when I was talking to the sales guy at the company, like the sales guy on the other side for me was just a BS vendor. So it took me a bit of time to just understand that actually I needed to master also the marketing and sales side of business if I wanted to actually get through the journey of becoming an entrepreneur. And that's where four week MBA came to be. So it was really documenting all the things that I was going through as a head of business development for a high tech startup and you know, as my previous life and career in.

Finance and control of a real estate investing company. So I was just putting together the different domains and leveraging on that to actually build a framework to understand the strategy behind business models, companies and stuff.

So yeah, long story short, that's perfect. Yeah, I mean I've gone through. Matt and I both went through business school. I graduated in marketing and Matt finance. But it's interesting. We always talk about the things that we learn in school. It's a memorization type practice for most of schooling. But now there's so much information online you can look up a lot of that stuff, but there's not a lot of stuff that we're using from our tools.

A lot of it goes outdated too. Like you were saying, there's a lot of stuff that business and digital marketing move so fast that the stuff that we learned when we were in School almost 20 years ago now most of it isn't even that relevant anymore.

Absolutely. Actually you have to forget it because the worst risk is that you're going to make damages to your own business. So there is also a lot of learning, unlearning process going on. So for me I had probably a couple of years where I needed to, you know, forget a few things and then going back to learning the new stuff. So.

So this, it sounds like it started, was it more of a curiosity thing? It's something like a need that you wanted to drive in yourself, but then to also present it to the world.

Yeah, I mean for me the most Fascinating stuff is that when I was back until like 2014, I didn't even have idea. I mean, as my generation, someone from my generation, I was aware of the whole digital world, but I wasn't an active producer. But when I actually figured that I could put stuff out on the web, and I was very late on blogging, so as you can imagine.

There'S nothing new to that. But in 2014, when I figured I can put this stuff out and get feedback and understanding whether this is valuable also from a practical standpoint, I was like, wow, this is something that I need to take advantage of. And I think it took me like one or two months to understand I didn't want to go forward with my career. It was not.

A simple decision because I was in the US I was in San Diego and I had an H1B visa, which for people who work in the US, they know that it's something very, very valuable because it enables you to actually gain a green card, which then you can leave permanently in the US but basically what I did, I resigned.

Very, very quickly. And then I said, okay, now I need to understand how do I build my own digital businesses so that I can finally go toward this journey of being an entrepreneur and drifting away a bit from the academic world. And at the time, actually I was thinking also to go back at university for a PhD and stuff. So I was falling into the old mistake of going to academia to actually going through entrepreneurship, which, thank God, I didn't.

It's true. It seems like you're still. You just have an immense amount of content and it seems like you have a really good system down. So even though you're later to blogging, it doesn't really matter. We're even. Look, it's just really cool because you'll, you'll literally analyze, you know, like the biggest brands of the world and what their business model is. And, and of course, I'm. I'm sure you're ranking for a lot of this stuff, so it seems like you get a lot of attention for this because I think people are genuinely curious as well. And it's like, how does Lyft make money? Or Uber or Apple, you know, we might know. But then you dig in with all these crazy models and you're like, oh, okay. It seems like a really good learning experience that you're putting out there.

Yeah, for me.

It made sense to start from tech giants because if you're building a business today, if you think about Google, Facebook, and Amazon, those are actually.

The gatekeepers of the distribution. So if you're a small business, most probably you're actually going through those gatekeepers to actually earn your customers. So you better understand how they work, what logics are behind those companies. And that's the whole point. So I'm not saying if I analyze a Google business model, I'm not telling you your company or your small business is going to be like, Google is never going to be like that. I mean, a company which has scale, that's completely different properties than a small business. But the whole point is that if you understand what's the logic behind what Google is doing right now, you can probably gain a piece of the cake in your small market, which means that you can really ride the wave of a large tech giant and then gain customers as a result of this logic. So that's why I do it, and I hope the message is clear. Of course, then people are also curious about just understanding how those models work. And some people also think that I can do what Google is doing, and Google can do that. Because at this stage, Google is not a startup anymore. There are still many things that we can learn. For instance, the way they experiment and the way they do things. It's very valuable to observe. But at the same time, it's very important to understand that those are, you know, huge companies that have really different creatures than a small business. But again, as a small business, you can take advantage of them and just serve their waves. So that's, for me, it's most. The most important. Takeaway from the blog.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess, you know, as podcasters here, I guess, you know, Apple would really be our gatekeeper.

Right.

As far as how do we get distribution of this content? Content out into the world. Podcasts, for the most part, there's obviously other platforms that are growing and growing, but Apple's sort of the gatekeeper to what podcasts get out into the world. And I guess understanding the behind the scenes of how these businesses work and how these things are sort of keeping those gates up, you can probably a little bit easier get beyond those gates.

Yeah, absolutely. That's the whole point.

Yeah, no, I think it's fascinating. I mean, just business models in general. I know you have a whole page here. I mean, there's like, we're a big affiliate marketer, so I was curious. I'm like, oh, there's affiliate marketing model. You explain all of that. And there's the freemium model, there's the subscription models. I think it's really cool. So how would. It just seems like there's a lot you're putting out there when someone, let's say someone goes to your site, for instance, because there's just a lot of content. And the point here is you're, you're doing a lot of this reverse engineering. So other people probably don't need to, but for them to actually understand and identify. Like, where have you seen the value that most people can get from analyzing these models and all that? Like, is there a way for people to focus or things that you've seen work best from your content?

Yeah, absolutely. The approach that I have with my content, I try to really look into.

Origin research. So I try to really look because just to give you a bit of context, when I realized there was an opportunity in the space with the four week mba, I was looking at other very big players. If you look in the business world, there is websites like Investopedia which have millions and millions of page views. But the whole thing I realized that also when you went to Investopedia and you looked at an article, most of the time they didn't do the research. Like it was not original, like they were citing other sources and then those sources were bringing you to other sources. So it was always like, you know, this is not the real source of this information. So the whole point of four week MBA is to really provide.

The original source for the bunting that.

The research provides. And for many people there are different kinds of value that they get from values that they get from the content. For some it's, you know, there are some people which are starting up a new company, a new business and they are just, you know, trying to understand, okay, what model do I use right now? And of course by you know, looking at the different models that I have on the blog, they get inspiration to actually start experimenting with some of those models. For some others it's change in career. So for instance, they are coming from, let's say a development.

Background or for instance they're more in the product development team and they want to go in a more managerial role. And so they try to understand these higher level concepts so that they can also improve their career. And then of course on the other side there are also like more analysts or venture capitalists or whoever is looking for, you know, how the business tech world is evolving right now. They try to really make sense of it. And one way is through the content of the blog. So those are the most important values that people get from the content. Based on the experience and feedbacks that I get and of course, for me, the best metric is when I get messages of people which say, this is how the content has helped me. And again, it's a lot of research because for me, the way I approach blogging is not about writing how to's, even though, you know, some of the main contents are sort of how tos. But in reality, those are really research. The way I look at it, I'm doing a research in the real world. I don't have any constraint because I don't have to follow the academia rules, which, you know, for the academia, if there is not a model which has been proved throughout the years, there is no sense in covering it. For me, I don't have those constraints. I mean, I can cover it right away and show it to the world, and then it's going to be, you know, the world which. The business world, which will decide whether this model makes sense or not. So by not having those constraints, I can actually offer valuable research and at the same time being the primary source for that. So I don't have to be an intermediary of information. I can be the source of that information. And another key element is the freemium content model, where of course, most like 99% of the resources you get on the blog are pretty much free. I mean, there's no charge. So you can get most of the value that you need pretty much by reading the resources which are available on the blog, which, again, it's big enhancement on the brand. So I think it's very important also to have that kind of logic. I mean, I think a few episodes back you also had Neil Patel, which is a great marketer, and I mean, he's also in the marketing world. He's also following the very aggressive freemium model, especially with the new tool, like with the ubersuggest, which I think is a very interesting tool that I think sooner or later is going to charge for that. But right now, of course, it's working as an amplifier of the brand because people just go on the site because of the tool. I think it works as a strategy. So it works to think of a free sort of freemium strategy to enhance the brand, but you need to think of it as a growth tool rather than a revenue generation strategy, because what happens is that in many cases, business people think of a freemium as a revenue generation, but I think it's just a way to amplify the brand. So in some cases it can also work as a revenue generation strategy if you're able to build a funnel out of this premium model so that you can qualify the leads across.

The funnel. One example, for instance, it might be a company like Slack, but also if you have a female model like Slack does, then what happens is that you try to hire salespeople to actually find good leads across these very large funnel that you have and you end up just spending more. So it's also important to understand that the freemium, sometimes just a growth tool, it's a different strategy than making money. So if you acknowledge that, then you leave it up.

I don't know how to say it, but. But if you do understand that you can use premium as a branding strategy rather than just looking at the revenue generation that it can bring, actually you can create even more opportunities.

Yeah, no, you nailed it on the head. I think everything, like for instance, us, we'll try to put everything for free out there as much as possible. It's a great amplifier. I love that you mentioned these tools like ubersuggest being a big amplifier of his brand, Neil's brand, but it's also a lead generator. And, and yeah, I think he is going to chart. I believe he said that on the podcast when he was on too with us. But maybe not. I don't know. Yeah, but either way, like that's. And we're actually finding, we've been deep diving into a lot of different ways to use assessments, tools or personalization type mechanisms to increase engagement. And that's just. It's going to help with marketing and you know, it can help in all sorts of things to solve problems for the folks paying attention to your brand.

Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

Now, on your blog, do you ever inject your own opinions or are you just kind of presenting the facts? These are all the facts. You interpret them how you want. Or do you ever look at business models and go, I don't believe this is going to be a good business model? And here's why.

There is a tricky balance that I have to keep because as you can imagine, most of the traffic is coming from search engines. And as you know, if you try to express too much of an opinion, then of course the risk is that you might.

Not be able to have the same kind of rankings. Because. So let me rephrase that. What happens is that.

The way I do it is I always express my opinion on some of the pieces. So there are two sorts of content pieces that I have on the blog. They're like business, which are very fact based. So based on data and the numbers and stuff where there is very little opinion. If I cover A business model like Uber business model or Google business model. Of course there is a bit of opinion inside, but then I try to present the data. And then of course there is always some opinion because also the way you read the data of course depends by how you look at things. But then on the other side, what I try to do is also sometime to start from, you know, a topic that I know has a lot of interest from the organic standpoint and then try to express my opinion as much as possible. Because, for instance, I wrote recently a piece on brand building which I, you know, I expressed, I think most of my opinions on the topics on the topic. And.

As you will see, it's probably on the second or third page of Google, at least it was since a few days ago. Now there was recent updates, so I'm not sure about that. But the point is, I try to keep a balance on the one end because of course the key channel that drives traffic to the blog is the organic channel. But then on the other side, they also have a very dedicated pieces where I try to give as much of my opinion as possible because at the end of the day, the blog is also the expression of my thinking. And so the more I go forward, the more I try to express it. But sometimes it's very hard to find a balance because, for instance, right now I'm focusing and digging inside a topic and trying to also bring the blog forward more on the topic of decision making under uncertainty, which is the topic of the heuristics. But then at the same time, I know that if I push too much on that side, I need to have a very strong distribution. Distribution, you know, on my side, because I'm not gonna get much organic traffic if I start to cover too much of this. So this is a business. So as a business, I need to balance the two things. So where there is interest, where is my interest, and then, you know, where there is opportunity to make money. And by balancing those things out, that's how I produce, usually content.

Yeah, so it seems like you have these great filters, you have constraints for yourself and you have ways to also put your opinion in there.

I know you have some courses as well in there for folks to dive deeper. So there's some monetization that you've built in as well. You've added that. I think it was a couple years into the blog, which I think is great. You spend all that time building the content before introducing any kind of paid element, or at least an obvious paid element to the whole thing.

Yeah, that's cool.

That's interesting. It's all very, I mean, we nerd out on the SEO stuff. I don't want to derail that though. But it just seems like super smart to really focus on that for SEO and kind of keep a framework around business models. Like, hey, here's the business model for X company. And you know, and I'm sure people are just curious online in general. You're getting not only business owners, but just people reading the news like, how does Amazon make their money, you know, as one type of avatar.

So from an SEO perspective, are you, are you kind of keeping your finger on the pulse of like, okay, what companies are people constantly googling? Okay, now it's time for me to write an article about this. Is that kind of the strategy?

Well, I'm, I'm doing usually try to do like three things. Like the first one, it's of course about looking at trends. So what is that? It's getting attention right now. I'm not very quick in following trends because the problem is I'm not trying to get, you know, sometimes I know that if I do a coverage of reasons. Just a few months ago there was a lot of buzz around WeWork. I was very late in covering WeWork just because I didn't want to attract honestly too much attention.

I don't like the whole point of just covering something because it's in the news right now. I would rather try to anticipate that, but not because I'm, you know, just to give an idea. I covered the DuckDuckGo business model a couple of years ago. DuckDuckGo, the search engine which is focused on privacy, right?

Yeah.

And over that when there was no volume at all. So if I were going to look at volume, search volume, or the DuckDuckGo pieces model, I wouldn't have written the piece, but I did because I thought it was so interesting that, you know, not covering it was. Was a shame. So on one end I wanted to, you know, I want to make sure that even though there is no such volume, but I have the gut feeling that this thing is going to explode are still covered. So that's, that's one element. The second element is of course you need to look at trends because as I said, you need to look where attention is right now and cover some of those. But it's very important not to lose your identity. So for me, as I was saying, there was a lot of buzz around WeWork a few months back. I didn't go and just cover it as soon as the financial statement was out, even though I would have done a very in depth analysis very quickly because I didn't want to be sort of in the news. I just wanted more like to cover it where, when there was less noise around it. And a third element.

It'S really about sometimes quickly anticipating some of the trends. Like for instance, I realized a year ago, year and a half, that TikTok would have exploded. And so I covered the business model at a time when at least there was not the kind of path that there is today. And then I find myself getting a lot of traffic or attention on the blog because of that. So I think there is a very important element having your instinct, interest and gut really into the game because otherwise it just becomes an SEO game and it doesn't have too much value in the long term. I think it's valuable because I love the whole organic traffic logic. But then if you push too much on that, I think that the whole thing is not going to help you to create any sort of brand identity. So I'm pushing more and more in covering things that I also think will explode in the coming years, but even if they are not popular right now, because I think that's the way you also build your identity, your brand and your business. So that's the whole point.

Yeah. So I'm curious, you just opened up a whole rabbit hole that's making me think about this. But how are you looking ahead? Like what, what sort of indicators are you looking at that make you think, okay, TikTok is going to be big one day. DuckDuckGo is going to be big one day. How, how are you seeing that ahead of the general population? Where, you know, where are you looking? Are there tools you're using? You know, how, how are you coming to that conclusion?

Yeah, yeah, I consume a lot of.

Information. I don't read the news.

Or at least I didn't read the news until I installed the Google News on my phone. But pretty much I try to consume as much information and sometimes, at least when it comes to the marketing world, I try to follow simply the where the attention is coming from. Just the case of DuckDuckGo, I by chance found out about DuckDuckGo and it was born, I think in 2009. So I was very late also on that. But back in 2017 because I got a bit of traffic on the blog. So I said, okay, what's this thing called? Duckdago? The more I explored it, the more I found interesting. Also the kind of model that they were experimenting with because the main difference is that it's not yet a mature business model. DuckDuckGo because they're still making money primarily with the affiliate revenues and stuff like that. But when I saw that I got very, very, very excited and for me there was a signal that I needed to cover it. So.

It'S just when the excitement kicks in and I cannot control it. I mean for me that's the best signal that I need to hover. That doesn't matter what the search volume or the other usually metrics that we look at SEO are telling me. So when I can. The Same happened with TikTok. When I saw the company started to look into it, I was like, I felt so excited for the kind of disruption that could have brought to the business world. I was like, okay, I need to cover that. It doesn't matter, you know, if it doesn't have volume right now. So you know, I think as also.

Entrepreneurs, if you're building a business, I think it's very important to keep the excitement as part of the game. So you need to understand, of course, when you need to stop that excitement, but when it's very strong, I think it's very important to also follow that. For instance, right now, a topic which I'm very interested about.

And I think it might really explode in the coming years. It's more like on the again, decision making for business. I may be completely wrong but like the side of heuristics and.

The whole decision making under uncertainty for entrepreneurs, which really changes, I think really changes the game because we're not going to be looking anymore at heuristics as a quick and dirt ways to make decisions. Actually there is a different school of thought which is again, it's not new. It's something that is going on at least for the last decade and more actually probably even after the 50s and the 60s. But the most interesting part is that there is a different perspective on the way we think, which is about how we make decisions, which is different from the perspective that most people have today, especially marketing sales, which is about biases, policies and.

The main way of thinking that we inherited from books like Thinking Fast and Slow from Daniel Kahneman. There is a whole new school and perspective which I'll try to bring on the table in the coming year, which is going to be part of the focus also on the blog. And if I think about the attention that is going to bring or the return on investment, I would not cover that. I'm so excited about it, which I need to do this I cannot stop.

Sounds like you're a super curious person and it's almost like you have some of the. You obviously have a ton of data, but it's more of your gut instinct from the amount of data that you've analyzed. Would you say that's pretty true that drives where your direction and where you feel like the new trends are going to be?

Yeah, I try to be disciplined but sometimes again when I get very excited I just go for that because I think that's the value added of what I do. The more I try to anticipate things not forecast. I'm not a believer in forecasting on. I will be wrong on a lot of things that I've over on the blog on the things that I try not to, you know, say this is the prediction or stuff because I don't think, you know, I would be right in most of the cases but I'd rather look at trends. I, you know, tell what are the most interesting things that for me are happening right now. Some of those of course might end up being true and if that's the case, of course that can be valuable for many people.

So yeah, now do you see a value that. So I guess kind of two parter is like I'm really curious on how you actually do the reverse engineering of all of these models. But before that, do you see the value of other people doing this themselves to engineer, reverse engineer some model in their industry, do you think that's. Or would they have enough resources like just looking at yours and then analyzing it in a specific way to apply it to their own business?

Yeah, I mean if you're an entrepreneur, I think there is a lot of value in understanding how you can at least what things you need to look at when it comes to understanding what you can borrow from an existing business and just bring it back to yours. So the more you develop a system for yourself, the better it is. So even though I put myself resources that I can show you all information you need, if you do it on your end, it's good. So that's why there are many frameworks that can help you do that. There is the most used one of course is that the business model canvas. And you can start from that framework. But I think it's very important also to develop your own way to look at those models because for instance for me from my background I look at certain aspects. But if you're more on the marketing side or on the engineering side, you might have a different perspective which is also interesting. So by combining those I think we can add more value.

Yeah, no, that makes sense. It's weird to identify what you want to model in someone else in your space or another space that you can think you can learn from. Let's get into curious on how someone else can try to do this. Identify. Maybe it's not a business model, but it's a marketing strategy. How would they go about doing this for themselves? So they can then start applying their own thoughts to it all?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, of course there are.

Different kinds of frameworks that you can use. As I said, usually the most used, of course, is like framework, like the Business Model Canvas from Alexander Osterwalder.

I'm sorry, could you repeat that one more time? I didn't catch it.

The Business Model Canvas.

The Business Model Canvas.

Okay. Yeah. It's a very simple tool with nine building blocks. And this helps you really streamline and analyze any kind of business in nine main building blocks. But I think the way I do it, I use my own way. And usually each, each company that I look at is going to be a bit different. For instance, if I look at a company like Google, of course my approach is going to be completely different than if I look at a very small and simple business. So if I look at potential competitor of mine, which is, for instance, small website or a small business, the first thing I try to look is really what are the, the most important assets that this company has and whether I can replicate and whether it makes sense to me. So from that perspective, you can understand how that works because of course, you do a lot of SEO and for instance, you use probably SEO a lot, especially to produce content. But SEO is very interesting to unlock data that you can use to reverse engineer quite many, many companies on the web, at least to have an estimate of how they might be making money. So starting from, let's say a small digital business, you go and you just simply look at what are, for instance, the top pages and whether those pages are actually getting monetized, how they're getting monetized, and what model is getting followed on those pages. And again, whether it makes sense for you to replicate that, to experiment with that, or actually go in a different direction, because, for instance, you might have a different choice on how you want to build your business. On the other hand, if you look at a company like Google the way I do it, of course you start from things like the financials, because from the financials you can understand where the money, the real money is and, and what. I mean, it's not about Just revenue. So you look at things like the profit margins of different segments just to understand where the real money is. Like for instance, if you look at the Google business model, of course you know that there is one side of the business, the advertising business, which is about Google Ads revenues and then there is the other side which is about more like on the AdSense side. But the problem is when you look at the AdSense model, of course the revenues are getting actually divided with the partners. So as you can imagine the margins are way, way lower. Instead if you look at things like Google Ads, the whole revenues which is coming from those platforms is.

4.5X.

The actual gross expenses that they add. So they're like huge margins. So if you start understanding those logics and then you look at the cost structure of the company. So the first thing is you look at the revenues, it's the starting point. If you have this data available, then you look at really on those revenues, where is the part of the company which has a higher margins? Because you will understand that this is where the company is pushing forward in terms of strategy. So for instance, let's say that you have a software as a service business which works on recurring revenues. What you will notice most probably is that the company might have a very low one time revenue model where probably the company makes less money. But the reason why it makes less money because it is pushing on the other recurring revenue streams which is instead having a higher margin in terms of profits and in terms of growth and scalability for the company. So if you do understand that logic, you know that the way the company might be acquiring customers is by having let's say a lower one time fee and then on the other side having a subscription model which is where the money is getting, you know, they're building the business and so you can try to replicate this model. And then again if you look at other companies like Amazon, then they're going to have a totally different business. And in many cases for very large companies, there's never a single business model within the company. There are different business models that are getting used depending on the revenue stream, the cost structure and the key customers of that business unit. So based on those things you can actually understand a business. For instance, if you look at Amazon, of course Amazon AWS has a completely different logic than the Amazon E Commerce company, Amazon Platform company. So those are very two different business units which run on different logics and also they have two different kinds of key customers. So there is a different salesforce, there's a different way to acquire customers, there's all those things that you want to look at. For me, there is never a single model or framework that you can use.

I think you need to be a little bit more creative in the way you look at those things. Because, for instance, there may be a single data point that will tell you a lot more about the business than just analyzing the whole thing. So you might stumble upon that data point that tells you a lot.

Well, that makes sense. It's like there's a layered approach. You're basically trying to identify where is the attention of Google, for instance. And then if you have access to financial data, then you can, like you said, identify some of the revenues, but specifically look for the high margin revenues because you know those are the most value to that company. And typically. And from there it sounds like you have a strategy to then do some research around whatever that business model or that revenue model is, and then maybe attach how the marketing looks like. Does that sound about right?

Yeah. So how does the acquisition looks like?

Is the company more focused on using a high touch? Salesforce is more focused on marketing automation. So the first question is always.

What seems the most trivial, which is how does the company make money? But then from this simple question, there are a lot of things that you can find out, so how does the company make money? Then the next question is, where is really the profit that the company is making? And then of course, the other question is, where is the key customer? Because, for instance, there are companies that might have many, many customers, but then you realize that there are very few customers that keep the company going. And so the question is, okay, what is this company doing to actually attract those customers? Can I actually model that, can actually experiment that? And if so, you try to design a business model on your side, which you can test quickly. So that's how you do it usually.

Now, if you're looking at a business that's maybe not a publicly traded company, or you don't have access to financial statements around the company, like, let's say we're looking at an online software. As a service company, how are you coming to the conclusion of how they're acquiring their customers and things like that, it's obviously got to be a different approach than if you actually had access to the financial statements.

Yeah, I mean, even if you start really simply by looking at SEO tools like SEMrush, I mean, you can get very valuable data because we forget the. We usually in the narrow space of SEO, we look at things and we think for ways that SEO is about creating content, but then most of it, I think the most interesting side is about analysis. It's about business intelligence. So you just start looking at those sites through tools like sm Rush and Ahrefs, and you start finding out, okay, those are the top pages, but are those also the pages where they're making the money, or are those just pages where they are gaining brand value, which is just gaining traffic, but they're not monetizing those pages. And if that's the case, where are the pages where the money is really coming from? Probably is not the page. It's a partnership that is behind. So for instance, you look at websites that don't have traffic and then they sell for hundreds of millions of dollars. You say, how is this possible from a marketing, digital marketing perspective? Because you think in terms of page views, but then you figure that there is a set of partnerships, local partners actually are the real value or real asset of the company. So you go back, you look at those, you really understand.

How did they actually manage to actually close those partnerships? And can I model that? And again, you go back, you draw potential business model. But again, it's very quick exercise. It's not a business plan. We don't want to have business plans unless of course, we have to ask money to investors. And they love business plans. In most cases, business model needs to be done also on a piece of paper, very quickly, test it and, you know, experiment until you figure things out.

Yeah, no, I love that you said use tools like Ahrefs and Semrush, but looking at, through the lens of, you know, doing research into the business as opposed to the lens of doing SEO, because we actually do that with our podcast guests. We actually, we, when a guest comes on the show, we'll actually plug in their URL into Ahrefs and we'll look at what sort of keywords they're ranking for and how popular their website is. And we actually mine quite a bit of data from Ahrefs that we could potentially talk about when we have interviews with people. So similar concept. Obviously, we're doing it from an interview standpoint. And you're saying from a researching a business model standpoint. But we're kind of coming to the same conclusions.

There's a lot of data on there online. What are some other tools that you would suggest using in research, in your research phase?

Well.

I usually again look at a lot of financial data because usually I look at companies that.

Are under, for instance, are ipo, so they are listed. But then in many other cases, there are many ways to get financial data. There are other platforms, like, of course, very, very simple ones. Nothing complex like Crunchbase, like Euler. I mean, there's those sorts of platforms where you can get some idea and then the rest you can just estimate it quickly. I mean, as you know, there are several ways. For instance, if you know the value of a page given by the value of the main keyword of the page, and you just do a very simple exercise of understanding how much people that may be conversing on that page, you might have an idea of the money they're making, and.

That'S pretty much the way you do it. And in most cases, it's really about understanding that.

You can use.

Very simple data points to understand the whole logic of a company or a business model. There's no need for too much data or complexity. For instance, when I look at also financial statements, you just do a very simple ratio analysis and you know, you look at 3, 4, 5 core metrics and that's all you need. I mean, there's not much need just analyzing more because then the risk is just over complicating things. And you match that with the other business, understanding the industry, what other companies are doing, you measure that and that's it. Nothing complex.

Yeah, yeah, no, it sounds like you obviously consume a lot of content, you do a lot of research, you do a lot of your own digging. And one of the topics that's come up quite a bit, not really on the podcast, but just between me and Joe and some of the people we talk about, is the topic of knowledge management. And how do we sort of store and organize all this information we're collecting? And I'm curious how you do that. So let's say you're kind of digging deep into the Amazon business model. I imagine you're reading a bunch of articles, you're doing research into the, you know, the financial statements, you're maybe listening to podcasts, you're consuming and doing this research. How are you sort of organizing and keeping track of all this data that you're collecting?

Well, usually I'm not the most organized person in the world. I usually do a very simple collection, for instance, of the URLs of like, for instance, like just take screenshots or like I send myself emails. Nothing really complex about the way I do it. The only thing is, the only, you know, North Star that I have is I try not to look at the content which is out there, because I try to.

I mean, of course, if there are like news of investments that those companies are making. Those are very important just to take into account the. Understand how things are changing and to understand what actually acquisition, for instance, might drive the company in the coming years. But I really try to.

Look at things and develop my own perspective and just go with that. So I'm not trying to look at what others are saying and then just, okay, take a bit from here, then another bit from there. Which is usually what happens when you produce content for when you do blogging, because, you know, you say, I'm gonna get bits from here, a bit from there, and that's how I produce the content. But for me, the most valuable piece of content that you can produce, it's when you try to do original research as much as possible on things that you can really have. You have all the data that you need, then you can just. And.

Give your own perspective.

Yeah, for you, not. Well, you're saying you're not the most organized person in the world. Your blog is.

That's on point.

It's definitely on point and it's easy to find everything. But it makes a lot of sense too, is that you're distilling the information in your own concepts and your own words and your understanding. I'm sure you're connecting things to other models you've already analyzed. So then it allows you to almost have like a framework you can work with, it seems like.

Yeah, absolutely. That's one key point, as you said. I mean, for instance, if I have to cover business model, I try to cover different players in the same industry. So for instance, if I go and look at the financial statement of one company, I go and I look at the other financial statements, and then I produce several business models, and then I can do a comparison on the whole industry. It's just a lot of work and research, which I think is the way right now blogging can be successful. Because otherwise you just like many, many others as you do. I mean, all the stuff that you have and research and podcasts, this is all original stuff that you're putting out there. And it's all fruit of your own understanding of the business world, which is extremely valuable. But if you don't have that approach, I don't think you can add much value today. So I think that's the way that works.

Yeah, I love that you're right. I mean, I totally agree with what you're saying. Where my question was sort of coming from is like, me personally, I consume a lot of content and I read a lot of data and then I have a hard time remembering all the data. So I kind of have to store it somewhere in an Evernote or something like that to kind of have access to it. And then there's kind of systems around how I store it. But it kind of sounds like what you're saying is you kind of do the research and kind of collect all the data and almost kind of keep it in your head and then you write about it. Is that kind of what it is?

Yeah.

The process, sometimes.

It can take days or it can take a few hours, depending on how much I've been reading about a certain topic. Because for instance, for some time I've been reading about topic for months and then I sit down and I'm able to have pretty clear ideas about it. But of course, if it is a new topic or something, then there's a lot of, you know, it takes a lot of time to just sit down, put together.

The different pieces of information and just collect them. But you know, otherwise if I'm faster, it's just because I've been reading about it for a very long time. And you know, I'm also, I love reading. So for me, like two things that I like doing in my, you know, free time, reading and writing. So.

It'S easy for me, but yeah.

So essentially you immerse yourself into it so that when you kind of write, you've been so immersed in it for so long that the writing comes naturally with it.

Yeah, that's usually what happens when I cover like an in depth topic, like for example, business models. But of course, if I go instead and look at business model of a company, it might take me also sometimes depending on the understanding that I have of the industry, it might take me also days or a couple of weeks. Or sometimes I start the beast a month before and I end up writing that same piece the month after. So depending on the kind of experience that I had, the kind of much reading I've been doing on that industry, I can cover faster or slower. For instance, right now if I were to write about Google or the digital marketing industry would be way easier for me if I were going in other new industries. Like for instance, lately I've been covering also the luxury industry.

And before I could really get into it, I needed to look at different models. So I looked at all the giants of luxuries. It took me like a month. So it wasn't.

Fast process. So it was a lot of work.

There was no shortcut.

Yeah, it's just a lot of consumption. And you even say this on your Website. But it's all about internalizing the concepts. And something Matt and I have identified in ourselves, and this is why our podcast even exists, is we love to learn a lot of things. We're always experimenting, tinkering, and consuming content, but we also educate. We want to present that content in our own words with our own case studies and results and all that stuff. And it's almost like a pleasure of ours to just put it out there to the world and not hold it too tight. And that internalization helps solidify these concepts, concepts for ourselves. And I feel like that's what's helped our business throughout the years, too, to identify the weak points and then you learn internalize, test, and it just kind of builds upon that.

Yeah, I actually wanted to ask you about that because that was something that when we were actually reading your about page on four Week mba, and you mentioned a few times throughout the about section that there's the distinction between learning versus internalizing. Can you real quickly sort of explain how you distinguish the two?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's an amazing question because it's the whole point of four Week mba, which if you get there for the first time, the first impression is, okay, this guy wants to teach me everything I need to know in less than a month. But really, the main point is there are certain things which I can teach you also mechanically. For instance, you have the whole guide about business models, which really is a book, because the way I look at content is really eventually to have the primary guides of the website, like, those were books. So that's the way I look at content development. Of course, it doesn't happen overnight because.

Those pieces get updated and as they do, they become more like resources. But, you know, learning, it's the way I see it. You know, there's nothing scientific, but the way I see it, like, learning can happen quickly because you can read something, you can also act upon it, and you can mechanically understand, you know, a concept. But internalizing something, it takes, I think, years, because just to give you an idea, like for me, understanding the whole concept of heuristics, like the COVID that I'm trying to cover right now, it took me like, I think a couple of years just to internalize some of the key principles that are underlying this discipline. So you start by, for instance, in many cases, by learning something by looking at the superficial aspect of that discipline. For instance, you look at the different business models, but then as you dive into it, you need to internalize a few key principles. And it takes a lot of time. It's not something that happens overnight. So you may think you understood it, but actually, again, it takes time, experience, and.

You need to understand some key concepts. And sometimes you, you understand it once and then you go back and you like, you forget it. And then you need to really understand it again. Just to give you an idea, there is a whole concept of ecological rationality. So rationality based on the context, which, you know, requires you to look at things. So when we make decisions, we make them based on the context, on the narrow context where we are, because that's where the survival is in that moment, right? So the whole thing of ecological rationality requires us to look behind just the behavioral aspect that there is, you know, on why we do things. Because for instance, if you look at, you know, the mainstream psychology mantra right now, we look at things like, for instance, people.

We see things like people are risk averse or like they're loss averse. But it's not like people are loss averse. It's more like they have constructive paranoia. Because you know that if there's a risk of losing something, actually there is some hidden aspect of taking the risk that actually can bring you toward.

A big failure. So it's normal process for you to actually be very loss averse than being more prone to take again.

The same gain. So the classic experiment in psychology goes something like that. If you have you lose $5, you gain $5. For you losing $5, it's perceived like twice worse than actually getting $5. But it makes total sense because.

We have this sort of constructive paranoia that requires us to act in this way, because otherwise we wouldn't survive long enough in the real world. Because one wrong thing that we do to actually mess the whole thing that we've been working on for a long time. So if you look at that perspective, it took me a while to actually internalize it because I had to forget what I had learned before about biases, fallacies and stuff like that and just go back to a new concept and I could actually build upon it. Just when I forgot about what I learned before and then internalized the new principles.

That makes sense. You have to take your biases away from it. If you are analyzing something fresh and you want a new perspective, because that's the idea of consuming anyway. And the internalization process is a lot of that. So for you to internalize, obviously writing is a big piece. What are some key, other key elements that we might not know about instead of writing, like, is it consuming? Is it looking at your notes and yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, reading and writing, I think are two most important things. And you know, taking notes, of course it's extremely important. But when I can really summarize something without looking at.

You know, sources. So when I can summarize the key concepts that I want to talk about without looking, for instance, on the web or without looking at any of the resources that I previously read, that is a signal that I internalized what I'm talking about. And then of course you go back and you look at those things and you compare. But of course, summarizing those things, it's really powerful. So writing them down, I think it's very powerful process.

Right? Yeah. Summarizing your own words. Yeah. Awesome, man. Well, yeah, we kept you a little longer than they were actually. Right in the dot. Pretty much. Yeah. No, this is amazing. So tell us or tell the audience where they can. Obviously we've been talking about 4WeekMBA.com that's what your main site. Do you have any other place that you'd like to talk about or direct people to?

Yeah, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So if they add me on LinkedIn, they're gonna find me. I'm not very active on Facebook. So if.

Probably for the best.

If you see something on Facebook, it means that I'm not there. I'm just a, you know, sort of a fake account. No, I'm just kidding.

But.

You hired someone to be you on Facebook.

No, no, no, it's me. But I really, I don't use much, but LinkedIn, I am very, very active on LinkedIn. So cool people to connect. I'm very glad to discuss any of the things that we said during the show and. Yeah, awesome.

And we also have a URL here for 4WeekMBA.com and that's four spelled out F O U R Week M B A dot com. What is a business model? So if they. Yeah, with dashes. So what dash is dash a dash business dash model. So what, what if they go to that URL, what are they going to get?

Well, they're going to get the, the main guide of, you know, the different kinds of business models that are out there, which is getting updated more and more. These are never ending work. So the way I see it.

So that people can get back to it because it gets updated often.

They'Re just going to get very in depth introduction to the world of business models. And it's a very quick way to learn how business models work. And again then it takes time to internalize those concepts.

Yeah, we'll link that up in the show notes so everybody can find that.

Link easily and definitely. And lastly, I know you consume a ton of content and one of the common questions we're always curious of any books or resources that you find that are just absolutely valuable to your life, that you just find yourself recommending. Do you have one or two of those that you could share?

Yeah, I mean, in terms of books, I think the whole Incerto series, which is from Nassim, Nicholas Taleb, which is just like the whole set of books like Fooled by Randomness, the Black Swan, anti Fragile Skin in the game and then there's another one coming out which is the technical inserto are very powerful, you know, readings. And then lately I'm reading right now I'm reading a couple of books. One is that Will Never Work by Marc Randolph, which is the co founder of Netflix. I think it's an interesting reader and they tell us the story of how Netflix got founded. You know, the whole story of how it started. And then I'm reading a lot of stuff and papers about German psychologists, which is called Gerd Gigerenzer, which is the author of Risk Savvy, which is how to Make Good Decisions. And yeah, I mean, behind that just, you know, my suggestion, at least I give it to myself, it's try to read as many, you know, internalizing as many books as possible. So for instance, right now I'm going back to many books that I read a few years ago and just reading them again rather than adding new stuff to what I really went through.

That makes sense. Yeah. And we hear that pretty often with high achievers and people who really want to internalize is go back to some of those things that really made an impact or ones you want to dive deeper in. Because it's just like any kind of movie or show that you watch too. You're going to pick up new things or maybe your mind wasn't ready for a concept the first time you read it. Thanks for sharing those. We'll link those all in the show notes as well because I know those books have been mentioned or some of them have as crucial books and there's a couple in there that I have not consumed myself. Cool, man. Well, this has been fascinating and thank you for sharing your model and definitely your website is going to be bookmarked in my pocket in that little app. So thank you very much.

Don't get into analysis paralysis, though.

No, no, no, no, not too much because you can. Yeah, it's literally like an encyclopedia.

All Right.

Well, thank you very much. And, yeah. For hanging out with us late, too, on your time.

It was my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.

Hey, hey, hey. Thank you for listening to that episode. This is Joe Fear. I'm sure you probably already knew that. And Matt is not here right now, but I'm pretty sure he enjoyed the episode just as much as you and I did because, you know, he went into the production of kind of making that thing right along with me. So thank you very much. And I want to give a quick shout out to our buddies over at Easy Webinar. These guys have been supporting us for a while, a long time, and Casey Zieman is just a super good guy all around. He's actually been on the show before. He's the founder of Easy Webinar. So if you look up Casey Zman on any podcast platform you're listening to, go check him out. Go check out his backstory, what he's all about. You can learn a lot about webinars as well. And right now, Easy Webinar, these guys are actually hooking you up with a great trial. It's a completely free trial to test out their software, soup to nuts. Check it all out and see if it's a good fit for you. If you go to easywebinar.com hustle that's H U S T L E. If you didn't know how to spell hustle, there you go. So if you go to EasyWebinar.com hustle you can go grab a free trial. And EZ webinar literally lives up to its name. It's super simple. I mean, super easy, and it does all the stuff that you're looking for in any kind of thing. With webinars, I mean, they literally cover every single type of type of webinar you possibly can do. So from live to automated to scheduled at specific times, and all these crazy features in between, can't even list them all out. I'll be here way too long. They give you a ton of advanced analytics. What's working, what's not. During your webinar, based off all these actions, you'll see who attended, how long they stayed, if they clicked the offer or if they didn't. Basically, you're going to make more money and you're going to work less with this thing and you're going to create better relationships with the folks that are listening because it's a good experience. You want to give that good experience along with some great content, of course, and a killer offer if that's what you got for them. So go try it out yourself. Go check out easywebinar.com hustle. That's easywebinar.com hustole. Alrighty. So that is the end of this episode. Thank you so much for listening to this episode, enjoying it. Hopefully you did. I'm pretty sure you did if you lasted this long. And go check out Easy Webinar when you get the chance and we will talk to you next time. Bye Bye.

Thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliffs Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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