George Bryant - How To Create Raving Fans That Buy For Life

And so when we think about this theory of, like, content or giving value up front, what you're really doing is protecting your business and creating an ideal client. Because if you give that value on the front, they take it, they consume it, and they don't implement it and don't buy. You just saved yourself a refund and a nightmare customer or somebody that wasn't ready. If they take it and they implement it and they achieve it and don't need anymore, you just created the best marketing machine you could ever have in your business. And then if they take it, they consume it, and they need help implementing it, then they pay you to implement it and escalate up your value ladder. It is literally the definition of a win, win, win game.

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Welcome back to the Hustle.

And Flowchart.

Podcast.

Okay. Yeah, that's where we're at.

Yeah, but you left those. That gap was a little too long. You were supposed to be on the. You constantly say how we have the same brain, and then when I start to do that, you didn't finish my.

Your shirt.

My sentence.

Oh, but he's wearing a Hustle and Flowchart shirt, so I didn't know I was going to be tested.

Okay, you don't have the same brain. You don't. Otherwise you would have finished my sentence.

Oh, man.

All right, we're feisty. We're in a feisty mood.

This is the third podcast recording of the day.

Yeah. But I feel like this is a good one.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

I don't think we need to say that.

We're pretty revved up after this one.

Yeah. This one. George Bryant. Dude, if you don't know George, you're gonna know George pretty dang soon.

And yeah, yeah, I mean, this is a long awaited one. We're actually originally going to record with him in person. He doesn't live that far away, just up the street from us. Meaning an hour.

About an hour up the street.

Yeah, yeah. But drivable. And then the whole Covid thing hit and then, you know, it's been months and we're like, all right, so we're just doing it this way. We actually recorded a video, so that was really cool. So we'll post it somewhere. Who knows where.

Yeah.

But either way, George is a frickin awesome dude. Creepily. He knew more about me than.

I knew he knew about me and probably Us too. We have a ton of mutual friends.

Because he follows you on TikTok.

Yeah, that reminds me, I gotta open up TikTok. That's an open loop for later. So. Yeah, I mean, George, Matt, what do we talk about? I mean, we don't need to list all this shit because there's a lot of stuff. Yeah. All right.

But I'm going to give the general synopsis of this. We're talking about how to build better relationships with your customers with your list and really just like how to essentially how to make the people that are following you both customers and non customers. It's important that I say. And non customers all just love you and excited to hear from you and just to really build those strong relationships with the people who are sort of following you in your ecosystem to very, very, very profitable results.

Yeah.

And George, I mean, he has a whole. Hold on, let me get his.

He gives his entire life story in about a 30 second pitch in the beginning of this interview.

Yeah, I mean it's, it's pretty amazing. I mean the dudes worked with and co owned some of these businesses, but like just so many big brands, small brands. I mean, he's worked with Adidas on it. I don't have his bio.

Titleist was another one.

Yeah, I mean he's been a New York Times bestselling author. I mean he. You'll hear what he says. But the dude is getting it done and, and you'll see why. So he'. I mean, I called him the most interesting guy in marketing. I honestly think he probably should have that title.

So he's like the Dos Equis guy. The Dos Equis guy.

Just minus the beard and the hair on top because. Yeah, I think at least the picture we're looking at him, he's bald with no facial hair. But I think he will walk into really high end meetings and whatnot with the blue mohawk occasionally, I think is what he says. So freaking awesome, man. So I don't even know what to say. It's just getting an epic. No.

You know what I think? I think we jump into it pretty quickly once we get this interview going. So we should just let it. Jump into it.

Jump into it.

But you know, we cover a lot of ground and there's a lot of amazing information. So you're gonna want to get the notes over@hustleandflowchart.com comp. Those notes are available for two weeks. So don't be coming and bitching at us when it's like two and a Half weeks later and you're like, who does that? I wanted the George Bryant notes. Well, now you got to become a member of the Evergreen Profits membership. And they're going to be locked in there, but you can get them if you're quick enough right now over@hustleinflowchart.com comp.

That's right. Or you can text with your rotary phone like I like to, or your flip phone. That's my backup. The number 38470 in the word comp. C O M P. You'll get those notes for free. And be quick. Got two weeks and then they're going away. Bye. Bye. That membership that is so expensive at $15 a month or 59 a year, because, you know, we're making getting rich off of those.

Yeah, we're getting rich off of, hey, we're giving everything away for free. And, you know, eventually we lock it into a member's area, but it's free first.

Basically covers our costs to produce this stuff.

That's true. So if you like this podcast and you just want to support the podcast, that's where that $15 a month helps. It helps us have less sponsors and less other bs where we're trying to monetize this podcast in other ways.

Good point.

If you just become a member, we'll stop trying to do that sh.

Oh, my God. All right, so get the notes. Hustleandflowchart.com comp. And we got a really cool Facebook group too. It's totally free. It's flowchartgroup.com. that's flowchartgroup.com. get in there. You'll be hanging out with guys like and gals that we've had on the show as podcast guests, but also us, Matt and I, and we're all posting a bunch of stuff.

I don't know if George Bryant's in there, but we'll get him in there.

Yeah, we'll invite him in for sure. But either way, that's the place to be if you want to discuss these episodes and can interact with everyone who's in this whole Hustle and Flowchart community. That's the place to be.

Flowchartgroup.com all right, fo real, let's go talk to George.

Let's do it. George. How you doing, my man?

I am beautiful. And I don't have as good of a podcast voice as you, which is.

Funny because we're both very self conscious about our voices on podcast. So I just can't.

I can't listen to my own I never, like, everyone's like, you want to list? My team's like, you want to review this? I'm like, review what? And they're like, your audio. I'm like, give them the transcript.

Yeah. Here's my trick to that. My trick to that is I always listen back to the podcast sped up because then I could disassociate it from myself.

Yep. Who's that fricking chipmunk that took over my podcast?

If I listen to our podcast sped up, then I disassociate from the fact that that's actually me on the interview.

See, at least I'm not alone. Like, we all have this. It all comes. At least we talk about it. We're good.

Yeah, yeah. That's in the past now, I think in the little amount of time that we've been pre chatting here, and it's kind of freaky because I think you know more about me, like you were saying, than I know about you in a weird way. We'll get that. I think you are the most interesting man, at least in business. From this pre chat, I was like, holy crap. And you need to repeat your line, which I'm pretty sure you have memorized, but for good reason.

Who are you?

In a nutshell.

Yeah. Tell us your life story real quick.

Yeah, I'll give you the elevator version, because elevator pitches don't belong in business, so they belong on podcasts. Right. So, grew up in a pretty broken home in Massachusetts. Sexual abuse, drug abuse, physical abuse. Ran away from my parents because of social services. Emancipated myself. Forged their signature and joined the best thing I could do. Broken home. Let me join the Marine Corps. That's a smart thing to do, right? Broken to broken. And I wonder why I have to go to therapy every day. Joins the Marine Corps. Spent 12 years in three combat deployments. 2004, almost lost my legs in Somalia. 2005, had six surgeries. Spent 13 months in a wheelchair. Told me I was going to get out. Was more scared of going home than dealing with that, so made a full recovery. Ended up tying a world record for a standing box jump. Forgot to tell you that in the chat.

Wow. Yeah.

Did an ironman, you know, did all that fun stuff. Got addicted to CrossFit, went back to Afghanistan, found Paleo, martial arts instructor, you know, firearms instructor, all that fun stuff. And on that deployment, I ended up getting seven concussions in the span of about 18 months. And so on the return trip from that, diagnosed a traumatic brain injury. I had bleeding on my brain Fluid in my brain, plus my legs. The Marine Corps is like, hey, by the way, it's been fun after 12 years, but you're no longer fit for service, so you're out. No retirement, no nothing. And at the time, I taught myself how to cook because I really wanted to beat my bulimia. I struggled with bulimia for 15 years after the sexual abuse. And so I found Paleo and I started to feel better, but I needed accountability. So I just documented the whole thing on the Internet, right? Just a Facebook page. And I was so good at business, I named it a really easy name. Civilized Caveman Cooking creations dot com.

I think I'll remember that.

Don't ever do that. I can't even spell it to this day, right? And so start there. And then two years later.

I actually, a year and a half later, somebody's like, you should take all these recipes that you've been giving us for free and put them into an ebook. I was like, what's that? Like, save it in word. So I did, and I sent it to them, like, no, we wanted to pay for it. I'm like, why would you pay for what's free on my website? And like, oh, because it's in one place. I'm like, well, where do I sell it? And like upload it to clickbank. And then I remember the first day I uploaded to ClickBank. I made my monthly salary in day one. And then day three, I made my yearly salary. And I was like, hi ho, we'll figure this out. Let's go.

Basically started a food blog, taught myself everything. Affiliate marketing, email marketing, social media marketing, web design, photography. And then sounds like you should write a cookbook. I'm like, how do you do that? They're like, you need a publisher. I walked into an event and I was like, hey, nice to meet you. I'm your next published author. I just figured we should know each other. The guy's like, who are you? And ended up writing a cookbook. Did the marketing plan myself. Became a 22 week New York Times bestseller, hit number four in the world. And then someone's like, you need an app? And I was like, what's that? And they're like an iPhone app. And I'm like, how do I do that? And they're like, go to this website. So I googled it, found an app dev, took all the recipes from that ebook three years later and put them in an app, launched the app and hit number one in the world and got featured by the number one health app of 2015 by Apple. Then I realized I hated cooking. Really interesting place to be, and I didn't want to do it anymore. And so I pretended I wanted to do it while I systematically lost about $40,000 a month in overhead as I ignored the business, but found out I had a really good skill set for psychology and marketing and integrating all these amazing things I had. And so some of my really successful friends found out, and I came behind the scenes, and Ryan Moran nicknamed me the Oz behind the curtain.

Yeah, I saw that.

And I started getting my hands on all of their businesses. And since then, I've taken over 300 companies from 7, 8, 9, 10 figures, built two unicorns. And now I spend all my time basically giving away every single thing I can for free, because relationships will always be algorithms. And I have a mission to really disrupt our industry. And people are going to do one of two things. They're either going to make something better than mine and actually earn the right to charge for it, or they're going to go out of business and stop taking money from people and giving them access to things that actually help them succeed in business. Which brings me to where I am today, sitting on a podcast with you guys, stoked to be here. Love it.

Hell, yeah. That's even better than the first round that you told us.

Now, I want to hear from your words, George, not from Joe's, because I've already heard it from Joe's. How did you initially become familiar with Joe?

Yeah, so here's the beautiful part. So I'm very aware of our industry, and I'd already been aware of you guys. We have, between the three of us, by the way, we probably have 200 mutual friends. Oh, at least.

Yeah.

Like, I'm talking friends. Like people we actually hang out with. Right. And so my wife's like, hey, babe, Marshall's launching a new show at the theater in Carlsbad. I want to go down and support him. Like, all right, babe, let's go. I'm not going on stage. And she's like, no, no, I know. Let's go. So we go down. I see Marshall, I see Eric. Everything's there. Marshall calls for people to come up on stage. And then I see my daughter run up. She's 15. And then I see Joe run up. I know that guy. Know that guy. And then I opened my phone, and I was like, I know him. I know him. And then I found it, and I was like, oh, my God, it's Joe. So I'm watching. And then, of all people, of Course, he's able to be basically hypnotized and he becomes the angry guy. Right.

It was totally different than me. Normal.

Oh, Marshall, totally. And I mean, like, I got to give it to you. Even if you're hypnotized to be angry, you're still kind of like a teddy bear.

It was true.

Yeah, it was true.

He's so cute when he's mad.

It was. It was adorable.

And so we watched him get hypnotized and then run up to the stage, yell at Marshall and everything else, and I was like, I got to reach out to him. So after I was like, hey, that was amazing. And it's so great that I was in the audience. I got to watch him get hypnotized and be pretend aggro like a teddy bear. And in Carlsbad, a hypnotist show. And then we just started chit chatting, and then that's how it all started.

That's awesome.

Props to Travis Houston. I think he made the connection. Even Travis.

Oh, yeah. Travis is the one. Yep. Travis, Travis, Travis. Just a master. Know everybody?

Yeah, yeah, no, we were. We were looking at your website and clicking through some of your podcast episodes and things like that before jumping on the recording. We're like, this is going to be a fun chat. He seems similar to us in that he's, you know, he's successful, he's got good businesses, he knows what he's talking about, but he also doesn't take everything so serious. And that's sort of been our motto is, like, we're in it for the fun of it. Like, what's the point of having a business and making money and doing all this stuff if we're not having fun along the way? And that's what struck us about you when we were looking through your stuff, is like, he's smart. He knows his shit, but I just love people who don't take themselves too seriously when it comes to business.

Yeah. And I used to. And listen, the only reason I'm not so serious, because I used to be a tightwater, narcissistic, sociopathic, gaslighting, injured man. Right? Like. And, like, I'll just call it like, it is like, right, like broken childhood. And then I'm like, oh, let's not deal with this trouble. Let's join the Marine Corps and kill people, add some extra shit on there. And then in the midst of there, get a marriage and divorce, lose my dad to cancer, then come out, lose 28 Marines to suicide, and then be like, oh, by the way, I'VE never had a successful relationship with my wife. And then my beautiful wife, who's certified in hypnosis and NLP and personal development comes along, and I'm like, boom. And then all of a sudden, the world opens up, and it's like, you know, I tell people the reason I have the position I have in marketing is because I didn't always do it, right? When I came into this game, like, 2010, like, I'm sorry. Like, it was worse than the wild, wild west, right? Like, we could send emails and get 90% open rates and get, like, an 80% conversion rate on an affiliate link. And you didn't have to put any disclosure. Like, this is an affiliate link. It's like, no. And so, like, I did it all the wrong ways, and I learned all the wrong ways to do it because it killed me. Like, I felt empty inside. I hated what I did. Like, it literally, like, broke my heart. And as I continued to heal and grow personally, it started to increase this massive wedge of dissonance in what I was doing online. And that dissonance, it was like I was bipolar every day, right? Like, I had to, like, put on, as Todd would say, this alter ego. But I didn't like that ego that I had to put on. And eventually it ended up crumbling. Why? I ignored the business and walked away from the social media followers, and I took two years in silence to, like, really reflect. And, I mean, I. I did some deep stuff, like, 10 days of silence in the middle of the jungle, like, MDMA assisted psychotherapy, and I had to really, like, rip open these shadows and heal it. And then when I came out and I was like, I haven't experienced the life I've experienced because I just get to be some addict for the rest of my life, right? Like, I didn't go through this. So I can, you know, pop narcotics because I'm in pain all the time. It's like, no, I went through this because nobody can hide from me, right? Like, I've been there, I've done it. And I mean that in the best way possible. At the end of the day, we're not defined by the lives that we've lived. We're defined on how we respond to those lives. And I was like, I want to do something different. And so I was like, well, screw it. I've had some successes. I've made some money. My bills are paid, right? Like, what can I do? And I was like, I don't know. I really like pushing people on the edge and getting them really Upset. What's all this content people are charging money for? And I started looking, I was like, I can't believe people pay for that. And I was like, cool, well, let me just make it for free and then make it for free and then make it for free. And then that's kind of how it started. Started back on the side. But yeah, I just, you know, at the end of the day I say this to you and you just nail it, right? Like, there's no point in doing this if you're not having fun. And I was like, there's also no point in doing this if you're not doing something good with it, Right? Yeah, you know, like, I'm sorry, like complacency is like death, right? If we're not moving forward, if we're not progressing anything, like, it's just like, why?

What are we doing?

And like, full disclosure, like, I still have a lot of loosening up to go, but TikTok has been amazing and getting me to do what?

What are you doing on TikTok? I haven't done that.

So like. Yeah, so like, here's the thing. I knocked it for years, right? Like when it was musically. And I'm like, obviously I research all these platforms, I consult the biggest companies in the world. I look at all of this and I was like, no, no, no. And then my 14 year old's on it. And then I was like, you know what I looked at? I'm like, people are snoozing on this. And the reason I love TikTok and like, I'm not an advocate for any platform whatsoever, but most of social media that's existed in the last 10 years for us has been built on this paradigm that you have to create this personality to be there and then people might like it or not. The difference is that TikTok, you don't, you have to be yourself first and then introduce that to the world and then add your skillset into it, right? So it's predicated on human first, skillset second, where the rest of them are completely different. And so in the beginning I was like, you know what? What's going to make me uncomfortable is shit. And I was like dancing cool. So I asked my daughter, I was like, what do I do? And she's like, you got to use the trending songs, the trending dances. And I'm watching these things and I'm like, my body can't physically do, right? Like 36 year old dad bod, like broken after 12 years of marine Corps. Like I can't and she's like, no, you can do it in slow mo. Then I really started playing with it, and I just started with, like, the easy ones, and then I just added my personality, and it's what's nuts. Like, in the first four weeks on TikTok, I gained maybe 2,500 followers, but I have 500,000 video views.

What? All right. Yeah.

And really, like, what's amazing is, like, I don't think I've actually tangibly given. I'd say out of 40, 50 TikToks, I've maybe done three TikToks where I gave, like, tangible advice, and the rest was just me being me. And I have people like, I've got, like, 6,000 clicks out of my profile to my website. I've gotten, like, three deals. People like, oh, my God, I love your personality. Wait, do you really consult those companies? Is that really what you do? Is that you? On the Internet, I found. I'm like, yeah, that's Team George. Yeah. And, you know, for years, I've been that guy, right? Like, you know, when I worked with Adidas, I go give these keynotes. Pink shoes, blue mohawk covered in tattoos. And, like, you won't ever see me in a collared shirt. Right?

What's your TikTok username, by the way?

It's Mind of George.

Mind of George.

And so people be like, hey, I need you to come to my mastermind. Right? Like, we gotta dress up. Shirt and time. Like, yeah, totally. And I, you know, I walk in in board shorts and a T shirt. Who the fuck is this guy? And I'm like, my value's not predicated on what I look like, Right? And so I just. I really kind of, like, loved playing with it and, like, exploring it and seeing what's there. But, you know, I think you guys nailed it. It's actually why I love your content, your podcast and everything. I think what's really, really important is that, you know, when you're in this world of business, entrepreneurship, and this, for anybody listening, if you're not having fun, it's agendized and reactive, and it will never create a positive result.

Yes.

And I say this because I tell people all the time, nobody has a marketing problem. Everybody has a relationship problem, but it starts with themselves, then their team, and then their customers, informed in that order. And if there is anything wonky in those first two steps, people feel it. And I get these calls all the time. My ads don't convert. I'm like, oh, it's because you're in a bad mood when you wrote it. It's not your copy. It's not anything. I'm like, watch. And they're like, no. And I'm like, that's woo. Woo. I'm like, try it. And then they go, happy. And something works, right?

So true though, man. It's the energy you're putting into any of this stuff. And for a while, I know in this podcast, we felt like we had to be structured. We had to have this specific agenda and all this stuff, which is great. It got some momentum, it got people interested in listening. But then we're like, you know what? Fuck this, dude. We love to just be us. And everything just totally just opened up.

Yeah, My favorite podcast, Ryan Moran called me. He's like, hey, come visit. We'll do a podcast. I'm like, cool, done. And he's like, yeah, it's wine with Ryan. I'm like, cool. And I'm sitting there, me, him and Clement, and we had like five bottles of wine out, right? I realized at the end of the podcast, I finished two bottles and they each had a glass. You're like, my team's like, do you remember anything that you said? I'm. Should I? And they're like, it was great, but you had a. Scared a couple moments. I'm like, well, I would say it anyways, right? Like, there's no point to hold anything back. So let's have fun with this.

Do you know Aaron Fletcher, by chance?

Yeah, I know of Aaron Fletcher.

You should know him well whenever he's in San Diego too. But yeah, we had a podcast with him in his office, and we had so many fricking beers, I don't know what it was, but we were all just hammered by the end of it. And we were all. And we had video and everything. So this proof of all that's just slamming, you know, Tall boys.

It's literally called, I think, drunken podcast with Aaron Fletcher, if you were to Google it. But we went to it. We went up to his place to interview him in person. We went to a restaurant beforehand. We each had like two or three beers at the restaurant beforehand. His office was walking distance from the restaurant. So we stopped by a liquor store on the way back, picked up another six pack, went back to his office, and was drinking beers the whole time while we were recording.

And it became one of the most popular episodes. And he was just giving gold. And we're all a little worried afterwards. We listen back and we're like, shit, that's good, man.

Listen, guess what? I tell people, right? Everybody, everyone's like, when you go on these shows, like you look at people dead in the eye and you tell them like, I normally charge six figures this, but I'm giving it to you for free. I'm like, yes, because if they actually implement it, they weren't going to pay me in the first place.

That's right.

And I was like, you guys have to understand, I was like, the best protective business mechanism that you'll ever have in your entire life is giving everything away for free because nobody buys the information. They buy access and accountability based on the best relationship. And I was like, the difference is, and I'm going to say this, and everybody needs to remember this, the difference is when you meet somebody and you have an answer to their problem and you don't give it to them unless they pay you, you've created an anti marketing machine because 86% of marketing is word of mouth and the Average consumer gives 8 to 10 brand recommendations or non recommendations in a 60 second conversation, whether they realize it or not. So that no isn't just a no. Once that's a no exemplified every single person I talked to. Have you heard of Joe? Have you heard of Matt? Like, yeah, I tried to get their help but they wouldn't tell me. Boom, out, out, out, out, out. Versus hey, listen, I'm going to give this to you. I want you to implement it. When you're done, shoot me an email, I'll review it and I'll help you with anything else. Even if you never pay me, I just want to help you. And even if they don't implement it, their last positive experience was a yes and you've loaded the ammunition in their gun to go talk about you. To capitalize on the most underutilized part of marketing in the world, which is word of mouth. And you know, I think this is where people get it all twisted. They look at social media and email marketing and digital marketing like it's this ecosystem that was created. It's no different than living in the 1910s, 20s and 30s, except we just have faster access to more touch points, right? All part of the same journey.

And so yeah, nailed it, man. I think that really solidified it with me when I was just hanging out with Roland Frazier a lot more and we'd become good buddies with him and doing some business together. And he always asks at the end of the day, in person meetups or on emails or anything, phone calls, how can I help you? How can I help you? Is there anything I can do? Anyone I can introduce you to. And, you know, he can't always help you out, but he sure as hell putting it out there and charging for it. And he. You go to his podcast, his challenges, all that stuff. He's given his best stuff out there. But for access and accountability, you better pay up.

Totally.

People do, man.

Well, the thing is, like, if I look at it right, like, we're friends now, we're gonna be like BFFs at this point. Right?

Right.

Little NLP there. We're good. I know how easily Joe can be hypnotized.

This is fucking. This is dangerous. Now that you're buddies with Marshall, you got your.

No, it's funny that you say that, because when we were looking through your website and clicking through some of your podcast episodes, Joe and I think actually said a similar comment. We're like, I think this guy's gonna be our new best friend.

Yeah. And I think about it, right? And the power of business. I think another thing, too, is, like, when we think about this, you know, and there's so much wrapped into this, but even just thinking about this, like, somebody meets you, you ask him advice, you give me a thing. The default in the world that we've lived in for the last 10 years is transact, right? Like, okay, I'll give you this when you give me that. I'll give you this when you give me that. The problem with the transaction is the transaction is momentary, but yet. People tell me they want to build a legacy business, but yet they're making decisions based on a moment, right? Like, there's so many pieces here that, like, you have to understand. Like, even a customer journey. This was like 2000. What year are we in? 20. 20, 2017. I spent 5 million bucks to figure out that it took 26 touch points to get somebody when they said, I want a protein, like, identified, I want a whey protein to spend $67 took 26 touch points. Dear God. Three years ago. This is pre pandemic, pre human agency taken away. We're up until the hundred 150 now. Whoa. Right? And most marketing that I see is literally manipulation, right? Like, you're broken, you're fat, you need this. And I was like, you have to remember when you frame something, like, and you push your beliefs or your thoughts on somebody else and get them to not self identify but have it forced upon them, they come in with this critical lens, and this lens is, yep, there's something wrong with me. I have to do this. But they were never enrolled in the first place. So when it doesn't work, who's the first person they blame? You.

Yep.

Difference being when you step back and you're an invitation, right? This is why all my light, all my branding is a lighthouse. When you're an invitation and they self identify, they need the work, then they pay the money and it doesn't work, who's the first person they call for help?

You were the man.

Because you weren't the solution. You weren't the one kind of creating the beliefs. And I think people get that when it comes to marketing, right? Like, oh, totally. I get that with that ad. I get that by adding value, right? And I was like, you have to realize that every conversation you're having is marketing. Everything's an enrollment conversation, every social post, every message, every conversation like this. And then they're like, I just don't know why my business doesn't take off. Like, well, just because you're nice online and a dick in person isn't gonna make it work. Right?

People will see through that quickly.

You're living in the be that you slept in, right? Yeah. No, you're not gonna get video shares. Cause your content is gold. Because every time they talk to you at a conference, you never respond to their comment. You don't say anything to them or you don't give them the time of day. There are no compartments here. No.

It's so true. And it seems like I've heard this recently, and I can't confirm by exact proof, but it seems like people are even tightening up and not giving. They're giving less right now when it should be completely fricking obvious flip flop.

That goes to a conversation that we were having before we hit record. That I think was really important to touch how people are marketing now, how people should be marketing now versus how they should have been marketing, you know, five months ago. Because it's obviously a different world now.

Totally. Totally. And I think, I think, Joe, the one thing that I get with this, right, like, we've all actually, I have to give credit. Derek Halpern said this in like 2015, 2016. He said something when I saw him. He's like, you gotta give away the house and sell the backyard. And I, like, loved it. I didn't like the context and what it was explained, right? Cause I'm like, that's still kind of snake in the grassy, right? But I get the concept, right? Like, you give more value on the front end, but really when you, when you dissect what's underneath, that is you give Somebody a win before they commit.

Yeah, right.

It's like if you, if your dream car, right? Like if your dream car was like a BMW M5, right? Your dream cars, a BMW. You look at it, you look at it, you look at it and like you're trying to decide on like what to pull the trigger between that and Mercedes AMG63, right? Whatever your flavor is, that's great. If I pull up to your driveway and I throw the keys to the M5 for you for a week and I'm like, just drive it on me, you'll never buy the Mercedes. You can't. You literally physically can't. Because I've established a neural pathway in your brain that associates that car, the feeling of that car with me. And even if you don't want that car, you'll probably buy another car from me. And so when we think about this theory of like content or giving value up front, what you're really doing is protecting your business and creating an ideal client. Because if you give that value on the front, they take it, they consume it and they don't implement it and don't buy. You just saved yourself a refund and a nightmare customer or somebody that wasn't ready. If they take it and they implement it and they achieve it and don't need anymore, you just created the best marketing machine you could ever have in your business. And then if they take it, they consume it and they need help implementing it, then they pay you to implement it and escalate up your value ladder. It is literally the definition of a win, win, win game.

Yeah.

So the thing that's really important though is, is that giving away all this value upfront is not being a fire hose. Right. Because a fire hose creates objections and backdoors. It's understanding how to deliver all that message and content, but in a way that's bread crumbmable. So they can take it one bite at a time. Which is why we create lead magnets and customer journeys. Right? And so but a lead magnet is like, hey, give me your email for this 86 page PDF that you're never going to hear from me again that I know you're not going to read. And then three days later I'm going to give you a coupon and try to close you into my fucking course.

Oh, that's called high end prostitution. Do not do it in your marketing. Right. And so you know, and I do want to talk about, we talked about Matt before, when we think about this and this is all Simon Bowen. If you don't know Simon Bowen, but really pre pandemic or pre any crazy time in the world, economy down or anything, you know, most of the time we're operating in business from this place of neutrality, right? Like we're here, we have customers, they're looking for wants and needs, right? They're like, okay, my life is kind of working, but I want it to be better, right? And so it's kind of like frivolous stuff like buying our supplements, buying our clothes, buying our bags. So we call that neutral, right? They're kind of living this life and they want to go from neutral to pleasure or add more pleasure into their life. Well, the moment all of this started happening, or any big thing happens, 9, 11, pandemic, market crash, housing, market crash, jobs, whatever, we're not net neutral anymore. We're in that negative because human agency has been taken away. We let go of all the frivolous things because our basic maslov hierarchy of needs are not being met. We are in fear of safety, shelter, water and food. And so the difference being is that the marketing that you use before, if you use now, comes off as tone deaf, disconnected and will put you out of business because they don't even understand that language anymore. It's like speaking French to somebody who speaks Spanish. Like they can't get it. So your message doesn't change, the wrapping paper changes. Right before the deliverable was like, hey, entrepreneurs, like the world's amazing, everything's great, let me teach you how to double your business. And now it's like, hey, I'm going to teach you the same content and the same systems and principles. But now I'm going to teach you how to have a business in 30 days, right? Because all I'm trying to move people to now is from pain back to neutrality, right? Through a level of safety or security or certainty. And when we think about ourselves as entrepreneurs or business owners or coaches or even leaders in our life, our job is to be a lighthouse or to be a mountain. It's to be sturdy, it's to be firm, it's to be steady and constant. And sometimes that means that we have to let go of the frivolous and hold that for our potential customers to where now it's like, hey, I get that I have the best six month program in the world with the best mastermind or the best 90 day course or seven day detox, right? None of that does me any good if they're so far back and so scared and unsafe that they can't even commit to the first day.

That's right.

Right. And that's where you have to really focus. And you know, what I say is. And we say that's not what I say. Little ego comment there. We all say you have to meet the customer where they are. Right. And that's where I think most businesses need to shift their focus. Because even. Even up until this year, yeah, Facebook ads have gone up in price. Right. All these things. But we're still kind of living in, like, this sweetheart zone of, like, we can print money on demand without having to put work into it. Right.

Think about, like, the lack of regulations that a lot of business owners online don't have right now. There's a lot of still wild, wild west kind of stuff that. In terms of that. So we're still living in a window of time where we got to be, you know, aware of this so we can actually capitalize correctly.

Yeah. And so what's happening is like, you know, we can still get away with not doing deep research on the avatar of the customer. Right. I teach customer first all day because anything you do without their words, their feedback, or their input is just wasting time, money, or energy. Right. And, you know, in two years, you're not going to able to be able to afford digital marketing or paid media if you don't know the target on day one.

Right.

And so what I tell people right now and what I'm still seeing to this day with all my clients and customers, is that most of the companies that don't spend the time to really get into the weeds with the people, like, knowing what they tick. But, like, let me just be clear. An avatar, she does not. A single mom who drives a minivan. Nobody gives a fuck. That has nothing to do with her buying the car. No, no. Like, I want to know how she feels, how she sees herself, like, what her pain points are, what gets in the way. And then I want to know where she wants to go. Because my only job is to create a bridge to get there step by step, step by step. And I watch most companies market for themselves, and that's the biggest problem. They sit in this boardroom, they sit in these meetings like, this is our marketing campaign. This is the pain point. This is the word. I'm like, whose pain point? And they're like, theirs. I'm like, is that the word they use or is that the word you use? And there's a big distinction. And as we talk about Travis, Travis and I have had experience this together because we've coworked on partners together. But there's been a couple where we had an instance where we were running webinars that were converting really, really well. And it was for pain relief. I'm like, oh, you know, this pain, this pain, this pain. And then we surveyed everybody and got the word. And the word they used was not a word we would have used. We add it. And the webinar doubled conversions by changing one word in the title because it was something that resonated with them. Like that was the language they spoke with the word that they used. And so when I say this, and I'm saying this to everybody right now, it's really easy to market right now. Like, everything is great. The world is opening back up. Like things are here, except nobody else thinks that way because we're forward thinking entrepreneurs, we're visionaries, and we love chaos because it gives us the ability to thrive in discomfort and solve a problem, right?

That's right.

Most people don't think like that. And I'm already watching people market, like, all of this is great. Everybody's back to normal. No, there's still 30 million people without a job. There's still people not wondering how they're going to pay their rent and pay their bills. And I'm watching people start the race way before it's ready to run. And we need to make sure that we stay where people are because we're 12 to 18 months away from being able to talk about like, yeah, let's go double your company or let's go on this frivolous vacation. Right. Like, we have to deal with the fallout and the echo chamber that we kind of created here. And we need to make sure that we're present and really diving into where our customers are and whatever the business is. Right. And the things that are going to work from this point forward. There's been a lot of things that have changed. Right. Social media consumption went up 12 times. Podcast listener shipping up 42%.

That's right.

Yeah, 42%. Right. Some of those are going to stick. Some of them are going to leave because now we're going to take eight hours back out of the day and put people back at work. Right. Don't get upset about the fallout. Don't be upset that your video views are going down or your accounts are going down or anything. This is a part of the cycle. But also realize that the level of connection that was created for all of you that jumped into the water and you did this work with them and you increased your frequency and connection. That level of relationship is going to become the new norm in marketing. And if you go back to trying to be transactional or only email once a week or not create consistency, you will put yourself out of business. Because we, in a three month period just established a brand new paradigm of relational marketing and it's going to become the new expectation. So all of these people that are getting caught with their shorts around their ankles, right, that like, wait, I have to talk to my customers, I have to respond to the emails, I have to take care of the people who pay me money, like, yes, can't live.

Behind an email autoresponder for like a whole month sequence, that I don't have to respond to anything or modify anything to the current events of the life.

Yeah. And like I'm saying this because like nobody is talking about this. Everybody's still like capitalized on the opportunity like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I'm like, go deeper, right? Because what also is happening now is the level of brand loyalty is going to go through the roof. Like you might have customers that have been customers for six months. If you've done this right, you're gonna have customers to customers for 60 years. Because you were the one that inserted yourself in their state of insecurity and fear and safety and provided a rock or solution. And it doesn't even matter if they've never bought your product. They'll sell a thousand of them to their friends, they'll be an advocate for you. And so it's really, really, really, really, really, really important for people to think about this stuff.

I love that you bring this up because obviously we're all talking the same language here. But it's interesting, the other day we were talking about we have very minor amount of affiliates, number of affiliates actually promoting our stuff. And we don't really sell a lot of our own stuff. It's usually affiliate stuff that we're selling for other people. But yeah, we have our couple of things and we've realized that the people that have come from affiliates typically aren't gonna be the ones that hang around for long. They don't have that preexisting relationship. They'll be asking for, you know, just whatever, you know, there's just a lot more friction there. And then you got the people that we're not, we're just being us, we're giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. And then all of a sudden, you know, it's like these people are buying this, they're referring this person, they're just sending thank yous, testimonials out of the blue, not asking them. And I'm like, man, it's so different when it goes from, like, a fan where they've. They've really spent the time with you. They're buddies. Especially for podcast, it helps because, you know, they're talking like you. They're. They're. They're referring other people to listen, and then they become like, you're. It's this interesting thing. And we didn't realize this until just the other day. We're like, huh? Realize all this shit comes from when other people are just, like, transactionally pushing people into our ecosystem. Like, man, I love the whole fan building, the organic play. Yes. We're using paid traffic and all that stuff. And that's really to stay top of mind, you know, and relatability to show them another side of ourselves.

I don't know how many times we've been at, like, conferences and things like that and have people actually, like, walk up to us at the conference and be like, I know you guys, and just start talking to us like, they've known us forever. Like, hey, I want to go buy you a beer. Let's go talk about, you know, let's go talk about the Padres. I'm a baseball fan too, or whatever, right? Like, they come up to us and they start talking about us, talking to us like they've been buddies with us forever. And, like, that is what we live for. Like, we live for that shit. Like, that is why we're still podcasting and why we're still putting so much content out there, is because we love this feeling of, like, going to a conference, going to a place where we may not have actually met in person, but we have a relationship already, and that's what we're trying to cultivate.

And I love that you both nailed this. Like, you two are masterless, right? I think everybody misses the gift of digital marketing. We as human beings, just basic. Let's go back to caveman days. We are tribes people. Pre Internet, we had to do all of this in person. Digital marketing, literally in its existence, is a guaranteed successful building of a business or community as long as you actually give a shit. Like, that's it. Like, that's it. Like, I know people that literally accidentally make a million dollars. And I was like, when you look at what they've been doing, I'm like, oh, they care. They help people achieve a goal. They move them one step forward. And really, when we think about digital marketing, there's only three things that anybody on the other side of everything you need, want to feel and it's seen, heard and respected. That's it. That's it, right? Like my favorite one. Like I consult a couple LA NBA teams, they're alliance of fine, right? And they're like, we just don't understand, like, why are socials not growing? And I'm like, oh yeah, I mean, I can't understand either. When the Same person comments 17 posts in a row and they never get a response. I'm sure they're really inclined to keep fucking commenting, right?

Yeah. No one responds to the DMs like, no.

I was like, you train your customers on how to beat your customers, right? And everybody wants to chase the illusion, right? But like you having a million eyeballs with no anything attached to it does you no good, right? And like I'm sitting here and it's like, you have to remember and everybody who just got tagged by that comment, get off your fucking soapbox. Because if you think for a minute that because you create quality content in the world that you've earned the right for somebody to comment, go out of business. Because that's not how relationships work. Marketing is a two way value based, long term relationship. And if you want people to comment, go comment first, right? Like I tell people all the time, I had one company, 1.7 million followers on Instagram, they were getting 47 comments a post, 47 comments a post. Two weeks later, we were up to 6,000 comments a post.

Just from engagement, I'm assuming.

And this is really simple, I'm gonna tell everybody how I do this. It's not hard because all you lazy people won't do it anyway. So here we go. I was like, how many people liked the post? And they're like, I think it was like 6700, 6800. How many people comment? Like 47. I said, okay, so first step, you haven't responded to anybody. Go respond to all 47 of those comments and then go through to their profile and comment on one of the last 12 pictures with something that adds value. And they're like, okay, cool. And I was like, now you have to realize that you had 7,000 people screaming for your attention and telling you like, hey, you got my attention, but you haven't done a good enough job fostering a relationship to earn a comment. And yes, you have to earn them. Nothing is given here. Good luck being in a marriage when you don't work on it, right? And so, so then I was like, go to their pages, anybody who liked it, and then go start commenting One by one on each of their photos. And I was like, do that for two weeks and see what happens. And two weeks later, they had to hire like four people, right? And I was like, are you complaining? And they're like, no. I'm like, this is what you've wanted, right? And I don't say it like to be condescending. It seems like it should be common sense, right? But most of the things that's taught and most of the ways that people do digital marketing is they treat it like it's a broadcast platform. Platform that's called the dictatorship. Not marketing, not value based. It doesn't do any good if I just shine a flashlight in your eyes and get your attention, right? Like I'm just hold it there. Like I got to bring you somewhere. I got to respond. I got to give you a permission slip. I got to get people in. And so it's really important when everyone's thinking about their marketing, like, and their business, from the moment somebody sees you, the moment that first touch point sets the entire context of the relationship. First impressions matter online too, right?

So my first impression, barking at everyone from barking at perfect.

Yeah, but you weren't barking like this.

No, I know I wasn't, man.

You were like a cute little pit bull.

I was out of my shell, man. I was barking from the back. Not barking, yelping maybe like a little.

Poodle from the back of the.

My wife and I were dying laughing. I'm like, this is as hypnotized, angry. I'm like, whoa.

I'm like, I would have got like arrested, right? I would have broken the stage. Like, you know, some sort of aggro PTSD racing age would have come out of me at that point. But when I think about this, like social media, for example, right? Like, everyone's like, oh, I gotta be everywhere. I'm like, yeah, Nothing like giving 20% to five platforms and expecting 100% result. No, be a hundred percent one where and go 100% deep and you're gonna win this game, right? But it's like really, really easy. Like if you send an email and ask an open ended question, you better respond to the responses or else. You basically said, hey, listen, I put a call to action in my social media posts, right? Like, hey, leave a comment. Which means I'm eliciting your engagement in this relationship. And I don't respond, which means the next time I ask, none of those same people will comment again because there was no reciprocity, right? And it's the same when you post a social media post. I tell people all the time, if your post doesn't have a next step, you're welcome. You just caused a bigger problem in their life. Nothing like getting somebody enrolled into a vision or a solution, then not giving them a next step.

You're leaving them hanging. Yeah. And you're like, cool, how does this show up in my life everywhere? And then how am I going to trust? That's this dude.

When you extrapolate it out and maybe one every six or seven posts, you ask somebody to do something. Don't ask me two months later why there's no engagement on your post or nobody does your calls to action. I'm like, because out of 60 posts, only two of them asked them to do something and 58 did it. So the odds aren't really stacked in your favor. And when you think about this, it's like every journey is easy. Social media posts, you have a before state and objection and after state and an ask and you change the order, right? Like, oh, maybe you're struggling with this and this probably gets in the way, but you want to be here, right? Do these three things. You're like, let me imagine what your life would be sitting on a beach, right? But yeah, none of us are there because we're here. And these are the things that get in the way. Now do this right? A call to action isn't like, go click here. It's like asking a question. Write this down on a sticky note, let me know what this is. Slide into my DMs. Do this in your life. Make this recipe today. Our job as business is to lead people. It's not leadership if you only do it when they give you their credit card.

That's true. It's this like big brick wall you have in front of them and it's like, no, only a credit card will get you passed.

And I have a. I have seven marketing laws I teach my students and one of them is everybody has to feel valued whether they give you their credit card or not. Right? Because if you think your business exists, but in order to get the information goal or one step further, they have to pay you. You don't have a business. You have a high end prostitution company. The end.

It's it. Yeah, if you put it that way, it's like freakishly like so obvious how many people run businesses like that. And then they're left, they're like, what the hell is wrong with this business? I need more traffic, then I must need to pay for more ads or write A better piece of copy or something. It's like, come on.

My favorite part, right? Like, hey, send a hundred to get two more. And I was like, or you realize that those 98 are 1 to 25 touch points away from converting, and if you actually did anything of value, they would all start coming in, right? Like, and I talk about this all the time, too. It's like, yeah, like, you know, let's add three upsells, right? Nothing like going to the grocery store, buying a dozen eggs, checking out, and then you walk out of Whole Foods, six steps, wait, do you want a dozen more? Six dollars. And you're like, no. And then six steps later, wait, we'll give you four dozen for half the price. And now you get arrested for assault, right? But yet we make up that it's okay to do online. But if I even extrapolate the numbers, and let's say converting, like, and I mean, highest converting, best of the best, we're talking upsell, like, first upsell, like, 20% is the best of the best. If I take a thousand people that went through that funnel and put them in a room, and I said, how many of you like, Joe? No, only 200 hands go up. How many of you don't? 800 go up? Because their last interaction was a no.

I mean, that's accurate. Yeah.

Dick.

I've seen his anger outbursts. I've seen his anger outbursts. And so when we think about this, like, that's not personalization of scale, but then you think about the same grocery store example, right? Hey, I notice every Tuesday you come and buy a dozen eggs, six bananas, and a container of almond butter. And as much as I would love to see your smiling face every Tuesday, would it be easier if I just delivered this to your door for the same exact price? Because I know you're busy and your time means everything. You just gotta. They'll throw the eggs, bananas, and almond butter out seven weeks in a row and never cancel, right? Because it's personalized and it's noticed to them. And I think what people miss in this game is that when we're doing this digitally, on the other side, as a human being, can you imagine what Apple's business was like if they said, you can only come in my store if you commit to buying something?

No experience.

99% of the people that come in their store every day don't transact. They touch.

They're just messing around with the gadgets. They want to see what it's all about, see what this new thing is.

Well, they're further validating how much they want it every time. And eventually the transaction comes.

But you think about it. Why do they own 98% of the revenue and only 2% of the market?

Hmm.

Pay attention. Right? Like, and you think about these things, right, like, and you think about, like, consistency and congruency. Nike's not like, just do it. As long as you pay me.

That's right, Just do it. Once I invoice, you just do it. When you pay me this membership fee. No, right, like, that's not a business. And so when we think about these things, I just try to remind people that on the other side there's a human. And like, I always give it the grandmother test. Like, would I be happy if my grandmother went through this? She's 93, right? And I'm like, if she can't understand it and she doesn't know what it's working or doing, I've already lost the game, right? And it has to be at that level. And when we think about this, like, you know, it's like, you know, like, hey, honey, you want to go to dinner? We don't say yes right away or we say yes, like, where do you want to go? I'm like, I need a minute. Like, we have to go through process. We have to be in thinking, right? So you need to decide right now, I'm divorcing you. It's like, whoa, whoa. But that's how like digital, digital is done. And so, like, if anybody, like, as you hear this, like, I'm just like, slow the hell down and realize that, like, like, if you were to inverse this or put a real life example on or put your grandmother, put yourself through it, not in your marketing brain, but in your consumer brain, would you like the experience? And then would you go talk about that experience to other people? And if your answer is no, their sure as shit is going to be hell no. Except you're going to get a whole lot of Karens and boomers that go online. Like these mofos, they blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I don't know, I just think it's. And I don't want to, like, I don't want to really, like discredit marketing, but marketing, like, replace the word marketing with relationship. That's all it is. That's all it is, right? And it's like, you want somebody to give you a thousand dollars or $100 or $2,000. How can they commit when they don't feel seen, heard or respected? Their needs aren't met. They're not crystal clear that you're there, that you keep your word, you're congruent and consistent. They can't.

Yeah, yeah, right.

And so like everything we're doing, and I mean every single thing we're doing, every touch point, every time you're on stage, right? Like you being on stage was a testament to your business. It's congruent across that personality. Part of you is who you are, right. You're not gaslighting people, pretending to be someone you're not. It adds to your credibility. All of those pieces dictate our ability to work together sometime down the road, right? Just like if I was up there hypnotist, and I was like, I hate people, you might not be interviewing me on the podcast.

And so all of it matters. And I think what's scary to me is the amount of people that are out there thinking like, oh, I got a hundred and I'll close that loop. That's the Zeigarnic effect, by the way. Close that loop. The hundred people that are there like, oh, if I send a hundred more, I'll get two more. Without realizing the long term consequences and effects of that action and wondering why three years from now they have to close the business, rebrand it and relaunch it because their reputation preceded them. And so this is something I spend a lot of time talking about with everybody because there's really only four types. And do you mind if I do one more soapbox?

Go for it. We're loving it.

Cool. I'm addicted to hearing myself talk, so I'll just keep going.

Just not a recording.

I have a podcast that I'm speaker, right? So there only four types of customer journeys, right? And I'll tell you what I call them. I call number one stuck in the Bermuda Triangle. These are people that bounce, right? They hit your website, they hit your social, they leave, right? Then the next one I called, they've picked a destination, right? They're like, I want to go to California, but I don't know if I want to go to San Francisco, Louisiana or San Diego. These are people that find you and want to learn more, right? Then we have the next people I call pick to port. They're like, I'm going to San Diego. These are people that optimize in. Then we have smooth sailing. These are people that buy. Most businesses only solve for one and it's the buyers. And the buyers account for less than 2% of the people that see your stuff, right? And so when we think about it. And everyone's like, oh, they hit my website and left. They're gone. I'm like, well, do you think retargeting is effective because they're really gone? No, they just need a journey or a container or something put into place to collect as much evidential touch points as required to feel safe, to make a commitment, whatever that is. A commitment to follow you on Instagram, a commitment to join your Facebook group. That's enrollment, that's an opt in and then a journey.

Micro.

Yes.

Yeah, that's it. That's all it is, right? And so every single thing you're putting out into the world is either moving people one step closer to you or one step further away from you, right? And so we'll see these things, like we'll run paid media, right? Top of funnel stuff, see our videos, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. But then all the retargeting stuff is only for people that convert. So then we just paid $10,000 to only get 2% of the audience and then we ignore the rest. Instead of running a retargeting, I had to add value or put them in a Facebook group. Be like, I want you in my family whether you pay or not. Let's stop pissing your money down the toilet. Right? Like Zuckerberg doesn't need any more ATM machines.

Like, he's good, he's good for a while.

And so when we think about it, you have to solve for all of them. And so if you realize that like your business is the destination, the people closest to you are the buyers, the people right behind them are the ones that wanted to learn more. I mean that opt in. The people right behind them are the ones that wanted to learn more and the people behind them is the one that bounced. So your entire job is only to be congruent and create content that takes people from 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, and then fill in the gap and people are going to come into four and go in three and go in two and go in one and skip to four. But if you don't solve for all of them, you don't have a business. You have a liability. Because then you scale the whole and that's like, oh, we'll spend 100 more grand. No, if we get 220 registrants on the webinar and it converts it 21. Shut up. Shut.

You're not thinking of the journey, you're not thinking of the human experiencing this whole thing.

Well, can you imagine Apple, right? Can I use them as an example, because everyone's like, oh, I wish I was Apple. Right. Well then act like fucking Apple.

Right.

Can you imagine Apple be like, okay, we're going to make three of the iPhone 11 and four of the 10 max. And eventually we know if we sell two of these, we don't have to sell these, then we can print more of these. No. Right. You think Apple's leaks are accidental? Oh, why do they release at the same time, every single release? Because they're still in dev mode. So they get it leaked, they get all the feedback from the industry and all the people get it fixed before they announce it at the event and then give a four week order window to create scarcity, get the money funded to then tool and create all the solutions to have an almost perfect product.

Yep. And just to go a little further in your Apple analogy to Solidify is after the sale, I was on a podcast with a guy that used to work corporate Apple and he said every frickin, I think it was once a week or maybe every day, Tim Cook would get a report on his tape on his desk about some customer satisfaction. He was always looking at that, but it would be literally in every store. He would review and be like, okay, why is that happen? Happening? And then fricking like a pit bull, go after those like that. That's a reflection of Apple and this whole customer journey and that's after a purchase and they're not giving up. And this is. Apple CEO is looking at all the freaking hotspots here. Yeah, they're squashing them daily or probably faster.

Yeah. So that's, that's, I mean, I have 8,000 more fire hoses, but that's just a really important one for everybody.

Somehow I have a feeling this won't be our last conversation on this podcast. But so I'm sure we'll get some of those rabbit holes in future episodes.

But I mean, and I'll do, I'll do any of them, but I think really like, and this is where I put, put myself out of business all the time. Right. If you can change the lens in which you look at your business and marketing, you'll change the way in which you see it and you'll change your results without ever having to spend a dollar. Right. And really that's the name of the game. And when I tell people, entrepreneurs, business owners, all the time, I'm like, pull your ripcord and get out of the weeds. And I'm like, it's okay that we live in the weeds. It's okay. That some of us have to get in the mud. We have to write the emails. Like, I have a team of one, and I run nine companies, a mastermind and a consulting business. It's me and one person. That's it. And we have one va, so technically two of us full time, one part time. But we're very intentional about what we do. But even I find myself in the weeds. Like, I'll be making courses or I'll be like, outlining podcasts and I'll miss something. I'll be. And Tyler's like, pull the report. I'll see you tomorrow. Right. And it's like, I just need a moment to, like, step back and look at it. And I think what's happened is there's so much information, there are so many things out there. And, like, I think most of the marketing stuff I see being taught is completely applicable. I think it applies to everybody. The problem is, is that everybody's saying a lot of the same things, a lot of different wrapping paper, and they're all beautiful, Right? But if you just keep listening to them, it's just this muddled soup in your brain, and you got to take one, put it into practice and do it. But I think all that noise has kind of disconnected us from common sense.

Yeah.

And if you look at that, don't look at it like, oh, this is a marketing tactic. This is marketing strategy. Look at like, okay, does this enhance or detract from my relationship with my customers? Right. Like, and what would that look like?

So that's the filter. You're always passing these things through.

Always, always. Like, I look at it and I'm just like, okay, if I do this, is this gonna move them one step closer to their goal? Not to my bank account, to their fucking goal. Big distinction. Right? And I'm like, Or if I do this, is this gonna distract them? Are they in the middle of something that now I'm giving them a backdoor to take? And then I'm gonna be wondering why in two weeks they don't convert. I'm like, well, because I gave them a back door. Right. Notoriously. Happens all the time. Right. Most people in our space create lead magnets to what, get email addresses to get conversions. Right?

Right.

And so they'll be like, hey, I'm gonna give you my 14 day guide to doubling your business. And on day seven, they start pitching them. Right. And so now you've actually created worse dissonance and more objections that would have existed if you just sold them on the front end. Because now they're incomplete, they feel unresolved, they're more stressed. And now you're telling that to pay for something, to get something else. And then they're going to be like, but I haven't completed this, now am I going to complete this? And you're like, why doesn't my shit convert? I don't know, right? So, like, these are the things a little condescending about some of this. These are the things that we want to really, really think about. And if we think about leadership, leadership isn't saying one isn't saying something different every single time. It's saying the same thing as many times as required till the last person gets it.

Right.

Everyone sinking into everyone.

How can I get cutesy? How can I change it? It's like, no, what the fuck is Nike slogan? Just do it, right? Not maybe do it, I'll do it tomorrow, I'll do it next week. They don't change it every week. It's just do it. And if I fast forwarded your business or all of our businesses, if I fast forward your podcast five years, you have, let's call it 100 million downloads total, and I interview 10,000 of them. What are they known for? If I interviewed 10,000 of them, they all come down to three to five buckets. But yet we try to get cutesy and change the wrapping paper rather than stay consistent. To create security and safety and bring our business to where it wants to go, right? And so get the common sense lens put into this and understand that this is not complicated. Business isn't complicated. You meet somebody where they are, they have a problem, you create a solution, and you do everything in your power to get everybody through that solution and then you can introduce another one. I don't need 64 fucking solutions to one problem, right? Like no more line extensions, no more digital products with all the same things, like, no, right? Like you have to focus on solving that entire customer journey in order for you to unplug the buckets and keep it going in the back end.

It's just like your email course, right? I think it says right there, it's like the only email course you'll ever need, ever, ever, Period. I'm not making another one.

Well, let's talk about that real quick before we sort of wrap up. What's different about your email course and what you teach in email that is counter to the common wisdom around email?

Yeah, no, it's such a good question. So basically, I vowed to never launch a course again because I did that for like eight years, right? And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. And then I realized that I built quite a few hundred companies on the email. And email's not going away. Like my grandmother still has her AOL email, right? Solid like it is, it is not going away anytime soon. But most of what is built or taught is all taught transactionally, right? And I realized that with email you can automate 99% of leadership and coaching and abilities and then just use yourself as the human interaction to kind of guide it. And so I thought about it and I was like, okay. And I looked at 300 companies because I have a scribe come to me to every consulting case. We end up with like 20 to 40 pages of notes. So we took six months and read through everything that we did and I'm talking to the Adidas, the Reeboks, all the way down to startups and we're like, what are all the common principles and things that we've put into every single business and what are the things that work every single time? And we pulled them out and we put it all together. We realized like basically you can basically plan and automate 99% of your business so you can leave room for what really matters, which is you interacting with your customer, right? And so the whole thing is like, like creating, it's everything in wrapped into a customer journey, right? Understanding. If somebody buys a product, you have five to seven days to create a habit, not wait to email them until newsletter two weeks later. And then the content that you've created is all repurposable and it drives people back into your funnel or keeps them accountable to using your product and using it better. So we put all these pieces together and I was like, okay, now I need my 12 year old daughter to be able to do what I teach. And so we went through it, my daughter and I, my team and I, and we went through it and I put it together and I was like, I want to make this, this either complete if you go through it or you grab what piece you need to solve that lead magnet or to solve that product fulfillment, or to solve that cart gift sequence. And then those are the pieces that you need. So literally you're not recreating the wheel, right? And it's like someone's like, I want a new car, I want to design my own. I'm like, cool. And they build it, they drive it for a week, they're like, you know what, I want a new one, let's build another one. I'm like, or why don't you plan it better and build the one that lasts for the length of your business? And so for me, the email stuff that I teach is the same stuff I was doing in 2010, and it hasn't changed because we focus on principles. And when you build a foundation of principles, then you can play with strategies and tactics because when they don't work, you still have a foundationally solid journey built and it doesn't negatively affect your business, your customers, or their relationship with your brand.

All right, so you also had. And thanks for sharing that because of course, it's freaking epic.

You said you had some. I know you sent us a link. I don't have it in front of me, but you have a really badass. I think it's some freebie that they could check out.

Yeah. I'll tell you about this freebate because I think it's in your membership community, wherever you share it. So.

One of the things that I'm known for is card abandonment sequences are everywhere. Right. Nothing like insulting somebody's intelligence and telling them they forgot something.

Let that sink in for a minute. I didn't forget. You suck. And I left. Let me just be clear on what happened. Right? Like, how many times have we actually forgot to buy something we wanted? No. Right. Oh, I forgot to buy that new car I wanted, or I forgot to buy that new stereo I want it. No.

So good point.

Statistically speaking, somewhere between 6 to 12% is like cart abandonment range of recovery. When you do the hey, you forgot something. And then my next favorite one is like, hey, here's a coupon. Nothing like devaluing my product and you asking me why you were gonna pay full price in the first place.

Right?

Yeah. There's a little psychological thing there where you're like, wait a second, I almost paid full price. If I would have just waited, you were gonna give it to me cheaper. What the hell.

The amount of products I go to buy and I add to the cart and I wait 24 hours to get a discount is mind blowing.

My wife does it all the time. She knows it's gonna happen.

Because I'm in marketing. I do that with everything. If I see that it's built on Shopify specifically, I will put it in the cart, wait 24 hours and see if I get any.

Yeah. And so the whole thing is, when you really think about it, in the essence of a cart abandonment sequence, what are we trying to do? We're trying to get somebody who is really close to completing a purchase, complete the purchase or get the product. But yet we send them back to the same thing that they said no for no means no. No. That's consent, even in digital marketing. And so I had this crazy idea five years ago and I said, what if instead of telling them they forgot something, what if we sent them a thank you gift for free? And they were like, I don't know. And I was like, okay, so what's our product do? And our product helps them. It was a collagen product, Hair, skin and nails. And I was like, okay, are there natural ways to increase collagen production? They said, yes. I said, are there smoothies and recipes that you made? So yes, they give them all to me and put them in a gift. And so then I sent an email and I said, listen, I'm not going to insult your intelligence like all the rest of the companies out there. I know I didn't forget anything. We simply failed to meet the mark or help you achieve your goal. So no, I'm not going to send you back to the cart and I'm not going to give you a coupon. I'm going to give you a free gift to help you get your hair, skin and nails better with these natural collagen producing recipes and tips and tricks that you can have for free. And I'm only going to ask one thing and I'm going to send you an email about it tomorrow. And then the email was another resurgence. And then I asked them what was missing, right? Like, hey, got the gift. If you haven't opened the gift yet, go to page 13 because that smoothie alone will change your life, right? Specificity, open loop. And I said, but I have to know, right? Like I have to know I sent you that gift yesterday because I ethically bribed you. Because I just really need you to tell me why you don't like me. So if you could just hit reply to this email and let me know. And then what comes in a flood of all the reasons that we need to cheat. Our sales page, our ads, our copy with the exact language they're doing the work for you. So then my next email says, I'm sorry, I can't believe I didn't address this. And that I didn't take the time to research this with you before because these are very important questions. Question one, answer one. Question two, Answer two to. And then email four, come into my world. We're here to support you. We don't send the product back, right? We never give them a link to the product. I recovered 61% of card abandons. And I've now used it for five years in a row. And I use it in every company I work with, including my own. And it still works to this day. And it will never stop working. Because no matter what, even if they know you're doing it, you are helping them move one step closer to their goal before they get the product. The only one of two things that happens. They realize they don't want to make smoothies and do dishes, so they buy your product anyways. Or they realize they didn't need your product, so they go tell all your friends about it in the first place. And so I put a video together for you guys on exactly like how to do that, what I put in there. And it will change people's businesses. And it works with digital or physical. That was physical.

Digital.

Think about it. You only have two ways to really get somebody into your digital product, right? Like your, your product is your vehicle, right? Like your, your 12 week course, you have two options. You had to record a video explaining the vehicle. Like, here's your Bugatti. This is how amazing it is. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You can have all of this. And I really want to teach you how to drive it, but it's going to take time. So I need you to come into my course. Or here's the first three steps of the 12 on how to drive the Bugatti. And then at the end, put it into your business, put it into practice, or if you want the rest of it, come in.

There it is, dude.

All right.

I can't wait to watch that damn video.

George. I don't even know what to what book? I mean, I don't even know how you consume this much information. I mean, like, you just have this encyclopedia between your ears.

Yeah. So I'm gonna be really, really frank. I was dumb before I got blown up. And so once I got one of my really bad concussions and a lot of them through like the recovery, like, I don't know if it was like I just got passionate about something else or like my brain worked differently. I was always able to remember crazy amounts of like numbers and information, but I never enjoyed it. And something happened to where, like, I guess I really enjoy this. But like, I tell everybody, like, I was afraid to get stem cells. Cause I was like, I don't want you to fix my brain. What if it doesn't work anymore? And my doctor and he's like, that is the first time any veteran has ever said that to me. And I was like, yeah, I'll take the mood swings, I'll take the nightmares. But, like, I really enjoy this. But you know what's interesting, Joe, is I have a rule that I'm only allowed to consume 30 minutes of content a week.

Oh, a week.

And I've kept that rule for six years.

So what are you doing? You're consuming just the right kind of content.

A podcast. Like, I'm very intentional with it, right? Like, Keith Cunningham from the Road Less Stupid. Like. Or, you know, like, a few people that teach it, right? Like, I take that reflection time, and I reflect, and I'll reflect like, what's my problem? And I'm like, okay, cool. And then I'll be like, okay, well, somebody has solved this before. So I'm like, oh, it's this book. It's this. Then. And then I'll even go find. I won't go read the whole book. Most of the time, I'll go to, like, you know, read it for me or, you know, Brian Johnson or something like that. And then I'll get the Cliff Notes of it. And I'm like, oh, that's it. And then I'll go dive into that part. And then I will take what I've learned and apply it into practice. And so I remember it immediately because I put it in practice.

I got it.

I'll be honest. Since we've started this podcast, we read vastly less than we used to, and we consume vastly less content because we're like, well, we're interviewing two people a week, and we're talking about the things that are relevant and exciting and interesting or we need help with in our own businesses. So why am I going to go out and search for the answers elsewhere when the answers are coming to us.

Bringing the answers to us?

And I had this theory, and we can close with this. And I think this is a permission slip for every entrepreneur, right? Cause somebody asked me, like, two years ago, like, what do you do for a living? I'm like, I write permission slips for a living, right? My favorite thing is, like, people will pay me, absorbing some amount of money, like, I want your help, right? And I'll say, like, what's your problem? I'm like, what would you do? This and this and this. And I listen, and then I regurgitate the exact thing that they told me, and then they put it in. They're like, oh, my God, this changed my life. It changed my business. I'm like, I just want to tell you, you paid me 50 grand to regurgitate to you. And they're like, but it was worth it. I'm like, no, and I'm joking about that. That I'm really serious, right? One of the things that I found is entrepreneurship is a lot of us step into the unknown all the time, right? Like, we're trying things, we're innovating, we're changing, right? That is the definition of marketing and digital marketing and entrepreneurship, right? So the truth is, is that you know better than anybody. And what I've found is that what will happen is, like, we'll get an idea. Like, we want to do this, right? And we'll be like, yeah. And we have that moment of clarity. But then when it comes to implementation, we doubt ourselves. So we go look for a book or content or consume something that gives validation to our idea, and then we execute it because we can advocate the responsibility if it doesn't work on them, versus owning the fact that it was us if it succeeded or if it didn't work, that we make a micro adjustment to do it. And then we're the one that's standing in our power as an entrepreneur. Like, look, I did this, right? And so I get super uncomfortable because I literally don't like working, and I think I'm dumb, and I think I'm not good enough like most entrepreneurs, right? And all those core wounds. And so my default is, like, when I want to distract myself, I want to go watch a YouTube video, I want to go listen to a podcast. I want to go pick up a book. And so I put that rule in place, and I can't. So I either have to sit here or go work out or do something positive in my life. And then the moment I get that moment, like, screw it, I'll just put it out into the world. I'll just put it out into the world. And that's where a lot of these crazy ideas come from. And I watch entrepreneurs do it. And like you guys, I bet you there has been a sliding scale of either scale or success or fulfillment that's come from. From the shift from consumption to creating, because that creation is in alignment with you and your message and what it's there. And in the consumption, you're basically training yourself to be somebody else's monkey. And there's nothing wrong with that, right?

Yeah, you're right.

But, like, as entrepreneurs grow, in my opinion, what we do is, like, we start by taking their ideas, learning them, giving them credit, implementing them, putting them to practice. Then we learn our nuances and ways, and we start to kind of figure out that mold. And at the end of the day, like, we're on the tail end of this journey. We're just creating to create. We're like, here's my idea. This is what it is. This is how we do it. And so for me, I wanted to fast track that process. I was like, great, don't consume any more content. Let's see if I can do this. And it's kind of worked out okay.

Yeah, dude.

No, that's. It's super smart too, because when you really think about it, it's sort of like the content is almost giving yourself a way to let yourself off the hook. It's almost like, I'm gonna go read about a tactic and if that tactic doesn't work, it's the tactic's fault. It's not the fact that my product is a piece of shit. It's the tactic's fault.

Escapism, man.

And like, I just want everybody to know I'm saying this because I still do this to the day to create containers in my life, right? Like when it's like, you know, you can build multi million dollar companies, we have a new idea. Like, I feel like I'm a preschooler again. I'm like, oh, this isn't gonna work. I'm gonna fail. And I'm like, I've done this like 300 times, but it doesn't feel any different, right? And so it's just becoming aware of it and then playing in that game of like and everything, right? Like, we live in an unknown known. Our entire existence of success is just predicated in our ability to iterate. That's.

It's. Yeah, yeah. You don't know what's to come of anything. Anything can happen. No.

So I don't even know what I'm going to eat for dinner tonight. Never mind, like, what the market's going to look like in six months or the business or the economy or like, what products work, right? Like, that's the beautiful part about it. It's that consistency. So, yeah, no, I love it.

Yeah.

Awesome, dude.

We're going to do it again. Check out Mind of George. That's your podcast name too, right?

Yeah, that's my podcast name, Mind of George. And everything I have for free and everything we give is@mindofgeorge.com to make it.

Really easy and subscribe on TikTok. You just became the first person that I subscribed to on TikTok.

So I downloaded TikTok the other day and have not logged in. You will be my first subscriber I'm.

Going to try to figure it out. I'm going to try to understand it.

I'm going to support you both and everybody listening to this right now. Set a timer on your phone for 20 minutes, and when it goes off, you have to close the app.

That's good.

Probably going to be a good call.

It makes the endless scroll on Instagram look like kindergarten.

Holy crap. All right.

Because it's visual music, songs, content, and their algorithm is powerful, it will put in front of you only anything that you actually want to see. And I found myself down like five hour rabbit holes of like, oh, it's 3:00am I was supposed to go to sleep five hours ago.

They're perfecting that science of addiction, aren't they?

They are good.

All right, man. We'll get you out of. Thank you so much.

Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. We'll talk soon.

Hey, hey, hey. Thank you for listening to that episode. This is Joe Fear. I'm sure you probably already knew that, and Matt is not here right now, but I'm pretty sure he enjoyed the episode just as much as you and I did because, you know, he went into the production of kind of making that thing right along with me. So thank you very much. And I want to give a quick shout out to our buddies over at Easy Webinar. These guys have been supporting us for a while, a long time. And Casey Zieman is just a super good guy all around. He's actually been on the show before. He's the founder of Easy Webinar. So if you look up Casey Zman on any podcast platform you're listening to, go check him out. Go check out his backstory, what he's all about. You can learn a lot about webinars as well. And right now, you know, Easy Webinar, these guys are actually hooking me up with a great trial. It's a completely free trial trial to test out their software. Soup to nuts. Check it all out and see if it's a good fit for you. If you go to easywebinar.com hustle, that's H U S T L E. If you didn't know how to spell hustle, there you go. So if you go to easywebinar.com hustle you can go grab a free trial and EZ webinar literally lives up to its name. It's super simple. I mean, super easy. And it does all the stuff that you're looking for for in any kind of thing with webinars. I mean, they literally cover every single type of webinar you possibly can do. So from live to automated to scheduled at specific times and all these crazy features in between, can't even list them all out. I'll be here way too long. They give you a ton of advanced analytics. What's working, what's not during your webinar. Based off all these actions, you'll see who attended, how long they stayed, if they click the offer or if they basically, you're gonna make more money and you're gonna work less with this thing and you're gonna create better relationships with the folks that are listening because it's a good experience. You want to give that good experience along with some great content, of course, and a killer offer if that's what you got for them. So go try it out yourself. Go check out easywebinar.com hustle. That's easywebinar.com hustole. Alrighty. So that is the end of this episode. Thank you so much much for listening to this episode, enjoying it. Hopefully you did. I'm pretty sure you did if you lasted this long. And go check out easy Webinar when you get the chance and we will talk to you next time. Bye bye.

Thanks everybody for listening to this episode.

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