Getting Real with Amber Spears: From Hustle Addiction to Living Your Best Life

It didn't even really realize how addicted I was to being busy and the addiction also to like this growth, you know, and like looking at my numbers. Like our business needs to double to triple. You know, the team needs to grow, this needs to grow. You need to grow the amount of clients that we're serving.

Hey, I'm Joe Fear and welcome to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. This is where we talk all about building businesses so they give you the freedom and fuel for your life. I'm not here to help you build $1 billion business, but I am here to help you create a business with systems that work for you so you can make more money than you need just by working part time. You know, I was a chronic hustle mode kind of guy and I want to share my experiences and mentors I've met along the way to help you reframe things to be the most effective as an entrepreneur. I wish I had this guidance and insight when I was younger. So that's what I'm doing here for you. Please share and enjoy.

Today I'm bringing back my friend Amber Spears back on the show. It's been a couple years or a few years. It's been a long time. She is the one I always think of and so do other people in all the different masterminds. I'm a part of these different marketing circles, anytime, affiliate marketing, partnership marketing, relationship marketing, jv, whatever we want to call that. Amber's name comes up in conversation as the one that just knows the game. She knows how to manage all these relationships and the strategy. She's consulted with so many companies. Her company, East Fifth Avenue has been a world class affiliate management, education and marketing company for years, has helped seven to nine figure entrepreneurs and brands increase everything they're doing. Amber's the one that has done it and she's gone through some major shifts since the last time I had her on the show. You're going to love this conversation and I can't wait to hear what you think about it. So let's get into it. All right, Amber, we're officially recording. Even though we've been chatting for 30 minutes or so.

Love talking to you.

Same. And it's been too long. And I look back on the podcast, it was like episode 159 was the last time you were here. It's like 500 plus now. I don't know, but amazing. Too long.

Congratulations.

Thank you. Yeah. No, I mean like things have changed obviously over the handful of years for both of us and that's just life and the fact that that's what we were spending the last 30 minutes is just catching up and jamming on life and I don't know the crazy, crazy shit that we've learned through these years and actually tapping into what makes us us and how that kind of, I guess, transpires to the world and the communities we build. So yeah, I'm just excited to have you on because you're real and I feel like we're so similar in so many ways too.

Yeah, I know, it's. It's awesome. As you're talking, I was like, wow, like I'm circling up, you know, as I'm changing, like I'm. I'm still the same. So I'll do some of the similar patterns but like I'm attracting back in my life, you know, and like repelling people. That a frequency fit forever. Woo. That sounds. I've become a bit woo, you know, over time only because like I, I think, you know, money is a luxury that allows us to have time to like slow down and actually look at ourselves. That's the journey of being an entrepreneur I think is like, if you can use this money to like slow down and really feel into like who am I and what do I really want? And yeah, you know, that, that is like something that many of us can answer that because we don't give ourselves the time and space. And so we've done that since last time that we talked. I think we've both a lot slowed down. Yeah.

And I would say you haven't been circling, you've been spiraling, you know, in a good way, like spiraling up. Because that was like my realization too. I'm like, yeah, cuz very similar repelled people, things, stuff I thought about myself that wasn't true. And yeah, become more woo. But there's gotta be a better term for that I guess. More real.

Yeah, more real. More connected. I think for sure. You've always been a connector. I've always been a connector as well of other people. But I think what was missing for me is like a connection to myself. You know, you talk about being a people pleaser. I'm a recovering people pleaser, probably still in and out of rehab on that. But you know, I think that's part of it is like we got really attuned to other people's needs, other people's desires, wants. And so, you know, we, we can really clearly see the patterns of who they need to meet. But when you do that, when you're so outwardly focused. You tend to not, like, hear yourself and to need quiet to really do that. At least for me, that's.

Yeah, I resonate with that. It's the outward. Yeah, like. And you said patterns. Like, I feel like that's something I've always had too, is like I could see patterns. I can kind of anticipate things or actions from people, have that intuitive feeling, which that's what I've really come into is like, what is my intuition saying and actually listening and pausing. Not just acting on what my brain might be telling me, but it's like, yeah, what are these patterns and things that wherever in me are sensing these things, seems like that's what you got going on too.

Totally. Like, I thought it was. It was just much easier to see patterns in other people, fix other people, help other people, and then realizing that I can turn that superpower within and look at my own patterns and like, you know, see. See the areas that, like, are both things that I really love about myself and also things that I wish were different and ways to kind of work on that or adapt to it, you know, just. Just so that I don't beat myself up about it, like, being disorganized, for sure. You know what I mean? Things like that. Y. But it's like, yeah, but I think, like, that's, again, it's just such a luxury that something, you know, if you're not an entrepreneur and you're working a 9 to 5, you know, and, you know, as an entrepreneur, sometimes I think I work even way more than someone with a 9 to 5. But like, you should be able to build freedom into them. Time. Freedom is a big thing. And like, that's really a luxury that I think the wealthy, you know, or people of a certain income level can. Can afford to do because somebody, you know, like my mom was a single mom, you know, working as a realtor and hustling on all commission or when she was a hairdresser, you know, I mean, like that trying to support three girls, like, have that luxury of sitting down. I mean, like, who am I? Let me meditate. Let me, you know, do these things. And so, you know, like, it's. It's a big realization that, like, I didn't give myself that opportunity either. When I was flying all around trying to build these businesses and push and hustle, like, I wasn't stopping and being like, let me check in with myself. I was like, let me check on all my clients. Let me see what they need. Let me see, you know, what the business needs. What my team needs, like, you know, it's just like that habitual pattern. And now that the business is stabilized and, you know, I feel more stable. It's just looking in and being like, oh, wow. Like, there's things that are still operating me that don't serve me anymore. Served me really well in the past. There's relationships that don't serve me well anymore that I would love to have changed or let go of. You know, there's new relationships in my life that are serving me much better now that I'm in a different place and just kind of being gentle with myself and realizing that, you know, I got really good at the outside connection and looking, and that is a superpower. And now I can just finally tune that within. And that's been a real cool journey of discovery and awareness.

Yeah, you say? Yeah. You're so eloquent about it too. I'm like, man, man, there's a. I learned so much from what you just said.

Hey.

I wanted to pause this and give a quick thanks to my friend Greg Merrilies and his team at Studio One Design. They're the ones that built my website over@hustleandflowchart.com I couldn't be happier. They nailed it. It looks so professional. They basically read my mind on the vision and they executed it beautifully. I now have a perfect offer to display. It looks super clean. I've already been getting a lot of people asking all about it, and I've been referring everybody to Studio One. So they actually put together a quiz for you if you're looking to optimize your current website or build a new one as a full quiz that gives you a ton of results on how to improve and optimize what you're doing. So go complete that quiz@studio1design.com Joe that is studio the number one design.com Joe. It'll give you a free report after you finish that quiz. He's also given away some cool bonuses, so go check it out@studio1design.com Joe right before we hit record, like, wow, our paths have been very similar in a lot of ways. And yeah, it's that discovery of ourselves, but also the noticing of the outward thought things we're doing. Like, for me, like I was saying, last year was burning it out in a whole different industry. That really was my brain leading me there, thinking that, oh, I want to be part of the new thing that, you know, I want to champion this thing for the marketing community, this Web3 approach and all this cool tech and I can connect with these people, but. And help them out and my. With my superpowers. But then it came back to, like, it ain't serving me. It's not. It's not fulfilling me. And like, we were talking about Joe Dispenza. It wasn't a feeling of wholeness, that's for damn sure. It was like a feeling of this anxiety and this pressure all the time and. And I think amounted to that from years past as well, and other events shaping up and things that happen that. Yeah, it got me out of. Like, hold on, what's the internal Joe needing right now? Knowing that all these superpowers ain't going to just fly away when I. If I slow down. Luckily I chose to last year. You know, October is like, nope, cut it off. Like, go MIA For a while and then reassess me first. And then now. Yeah, two months into this year, at least that's where we find ourselves now. And I'm so much more fulfilled. In a very similar message, you're talking about and what you're doing with your business, which I'd love to chat about, how you've shifted everything you've done at East 5th Avenue and the affiliate marketing space, partnership marketing, because it's so aligned with what I'm doing here and how I want to present new ideas to entrepreneurs, marketers, that there is, like, whatever's inside us, those special gifts and the things, our superpowers. A. Do you even know what the hell they are? Like, people probably been telling you that outwardly forever. I know I ignored them or I, like, just discount it. Not discounted that, but I deflected them, I guess, without knowing it was my brain saying, like, I already know that. All right, let's. Let's go to the next thing. And just moving to the next thing doesn't bring us wholeness or fulfilledness. It just brings us to the next thing. And it's like, okay, new problem to solve, new thing to smash. The hammer, hammer, hammer. And it's like, no, chill.

So with this show. Yeah, I would like to. Exactly what you're saying is what I'm trying to put out here and share more folks like yourself, which I'm so happy that you've been doing the same change because I didn't really know a lot of it, but tell me about what.

Yeah, I've been. I've been kind of quiet about it in a lot of ways, and I realized I was just on a call with Dan Martell's team. Like, so generous. He's he reached out and was like, dude, like talk to my marketing team. Because you guys, you know, do a lot of like similar things, right? They do SaaS and we do this, but kind of like our paths are similar. And the reason why he said that is because I made a decision this year to stop flying all around and doing as much speaking as I've been doing. Because that was a primary kind of legion for our. And it was a decision that I'm sure my, my, I know my business partner wanted me to do for many years and of course every partner I've ever had wanted me to stop spending so much time on the road. But it was like an addiction, you know, and like it didn't even really realize how addicted I was to being busy. And the addiction also to like this growth, you know, and like looking at my numbers, like our business needs to double, to triple, you know, the team needs to grow, this needs to grow. We need to grow the amount of clients that we're serving. And I was in that place where I was starting burnt out almost the end of 2019. And then as we've talked about, my former partner took her own life. And like that was like right before COVID hit was in November of 2019. And then realizing then that like I just, I couldn't mentally sustain it for my clients. And so I started shutting. Me and my business partner just shut down the agency side of our business and kept the education side and own internal offers. And then Covid hit and I couldn't travel at all, you know, like couldn't speak anywhere. And so that's when we launched thing called Traffic Tribe, which is still going strong. 250 companies in there all do affiliate marketing. We meet twice a month and network and do education and pitch and you know, I bring in experts to teach and all this stuff. And it's been really rewarding and also rolling out things like recruiting a player, affiliate managers and just really making them better. Right? Because I think at the end of the day, like I feel a great responsibility to sit improve and to elevate the industry in terms of what we're doing human to human interaction. And that's a big part of what your affiliate manager does. And that's why I like affiliate marketing, because there's a spirit of cooperation and collaboration that I really enjoy. And I've been doing marketing for 15 years. I've done SEO, we've done, you know, agency work and we've done this and we've been through every Panda Update and Penguin Update. We're doing SEO and now as marketers been through like all these iOS updates and all this other stuff and like I think that's all incredibly valuable, you know, and this an AI that's coming out on Web three, all that stuff is really valuable. But I'm gonna stick to what I'm gifted which is relationships and, and people being, and being belly to belly with them. And I think that that human interaction is going to become a luxury especially in, you know, in person events as well as the world of AI and Web3 and all these things grow. I think it's very exciting. Certainly don't want to be left behind, but I have really smart people around me that teach me like Lee Richter and like, you know, you and like, yeah, you know, as so many other people set from Georgia, like all I'm around all these people on a really regular basis are my dear friends and anything I really need to know I can go directly to this horse and like learn it and of course we use it but like we're losing the, in a lot of ways the humanness of, of what we're doing when we start focusing just on the tools and the product because we're forgetting about the end user and so we're also forgetting that the end user is a multi dimensional person. I am not my business, even though oftentimes I have felt that way, which means that I'm not, you know, I'm not for business. So it's not my only interest, it's not my only desire, it's not the only thing that waters me. And especially going virtual, teaching affiliate managers, bringing in this new wave of affiliate managers and teaching them, you know, that at the end of the day your job is to be a cheerleader and a supporter of the companies and brands that choose to promote you. They're your voluntary sales force. Right. So you need to have these higher level skill sets. Of course you need to learn sales training, but the reason why you're doing it is to help them solve a problem is to increase the growth of their revenue and their reach and doing audience swaps and doing all these things like you guys are collaborating and so that I take that really seriously and like everything that you built on the education side looks at that. And it's the same thing with my mastermind. You know, I've had it for seven years and that's going to evolution and like my businesses are evolving because I'm evolving. But I, I'm going to stay, I'm just going to say like I'm going To stay old school in that like I want to double down and do what I've done best my whole life, which is connect, understand, amplify, support people, brands, products, missions that I care about that resonate with me, that I think are important to the future. And that's what I'm going to back is the people. So cool to see the change in my businesses and in myself. They're all happening at the same time.

Yeah. And the fact that you're letting it happen, I think is the big thing is you're not trying to silo it or hide any part of it. But yeah, the best of you I think comes out when you can also you have an outlet to let you out in a bigger way. Like I was describing with this podcast is for me it's been connecting on steroids in a way like at scale. But I know when I put the right messages out there, have the right mission and purpose behind the thing, then more the right people are attracted to it. But also I know the ripples are just a lot stronger. It's almost like a compounded effort with the people that you bring in. It probably choose away a lot of folks that maybe just aren't ready or just doesn't hit land. And that's cool. You know, I'm not, I'm not trying to, trying to get everybody in on board on this thing, but the right people and I feel like it's just like sharing ideas with trusted folks. Like I feel like they're, they're not going to just throw them out, they're going to help you compound those into bigger and better things. And yeah, connecting and then co creating. Like that's why I love, well a, why I love affiliate marketing and relationship marketing. I guess relationship, I would use that term maybe a little more so here thinking of people because it is, it's a word of mouth thing and I think even on the last episode we did together you, you harped on that like it's a people thing that we're doing. Yeah, of course there's tracking and all this digital pixel stuff that you can be implementing and should knowing your numbers. But at the same time it's a people thing. And yeah, AI, all this cool tech is fabulous and it's just going to keep advancing quicker than we ever even know. But the people thing, the scarcity of people and connections, I haven't really thought about that side of things but it's totally true. And the fact that you're doing something about it, I feel like I'm doing Something about it here in my little world on the podcast. We'll see where it goes. I don't know, but it's definitely, like a unique approach right now, which is weird. It's not the sexy approach, you know.

Totally, man. And, like, I. I think about, like, how blessed we are to be in this industry, truly. And I think we. We kind of take it for granted. But, like, yeah, I'm in the middle of, like, writing and finishing this on my book, my first book that we're self publishing.

Really nice.

Yeah. So excited about. But I woke up in the middle of the night actually last night, and I just started taking notes. So I was like, I'm missing something in here. And I had been, like, kind of, like ruminating over it and just, like, chewing on it for weeks, and it finally came up and I was like, oh, I'm missing, like, some stories that I think are really important in here. And, you know, some of the stories that I was writing down is like, you know, Mike and Nairo, Gary. I don't know if you know them, but they're some of my favorite people in the whole world. I'm actually going to be in Salt Lake with them starting tomorrow. They're mastermind members of mine, and they were so generous to let us use one of their mountain houses to do the second part of our event, which is just hanging out. First part is intensives. We're doing teaching electrical stuff. Second part is we have chefs coming in and bartenders and people are skiing. We're taking up and down the mountain stuff, which is great.

Yeah.

The me. The reason for his connection. And I know when I'm at their house, when I'm on the back porch of their house, what I'm going to look out and see is that Gary Nealon lives a stone throw away in his. In his big, beautiful house. And then if you are really good and you can have a really good arm, throw it even farther and you'll hit Jeff Siegel's house.

Wow.

And they all met. Met, right. And grew their businesses together and have created this big community, or best friends, through Internet marketing. And then behind them, there's a whole, you know, Shelby Larson, all these people that also live in that area, ajar. They've created this community, this compound through marketing. And they're all best friends. They all invest in each other's businesses. They all grow together. They all leverage all their insights like it's a real family. And it's one of my favorite group of people for that reason. But it's Also, it's not unique to them. It's something that I see in Pockets and Austin when I go visit, and I see the community they've built out there, here and in Tampa, the community that's out here. Right. We're all friends and collaborators, and it's something that I think other people should kind of understand is that as an entrepreneur, there's a feeling of loneliness a lot of times. And, like, we're very fortunate that we have the. The. The mentality of collaboration and. And not competition, because on the surface, we all have really similar businesses. You know, they all sell some sort of supplement, food supplement or technology or like, you know, pet company hanging out with other pet food company owner. On the surface, you wouldn't think hanging out, sharing, like, dude, look at this landing page is killing it. This copywriter wrote this best thing. Let me introduce you to him. Like, that's not normal in most companies, and we do that, and I just love it. You know, I think that that's, like, the best part about what we do.

It really is. Yeah. It's the openness and sharing and remembering that we have those folks around us. No matter what level you are, however you want to put people in levels, I guess is like, yeah, just as long as you involve yourself with others and find, like, your group is out there. It could be a virtual group or. Or belly to belly in person, which is always amazing and better. Yeah. Let's be honest. But, yeah, we always have that support. And I know. I think we chatted about this as well. I know we did. Is that. Well, sometimes I'll take myself out of those groups, whatever reason. Maybe it's just something's not right. I feel like there's friction in my world somehow. Or maybe I'm too much in my head thinking about trying to solve my own problem. The how. But it's like if you just toss away the how to do things and just surround yourself with amazing people, the how just comes up, and it's usually someone else, and that person is probably a stone's throw from you, at least virtually. And it's just you that needs to reach out.

Yeah, but I, you know, I. I'm going to speak for myself for a moment, but, like, I think one of the coolest parts about being an entrepreneur, for me at least, has been that I get to practice things on my clients and peers and in my business that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing personally. You know, personal development being a really good one. You know, I learned how to communicate better because I Want to communicate better with my team. Right. And then it ends up being that I can communicate better with my partner and my best friend and. Right. So it's like I feel safer to practice it these things because it becomes so obvious like why do these things keep happening in my business? Oh, it's me, right? So I need to like fix me. Right. Like and, and so it becomes easier. And you do it there. I think you do internally. But for me this is something that keeps coming up for me is like I had a really terrible childhood. Full abuse, full of neglect, you know, full of abandonment. And then created. It lended itself to me feeling like I needed to self regulate on my own, that my emotions were too big, that my parents emotions were far more important. Only adults could be angry or like, you know, have emotions and like kids should be seen and not heard. And like, you know, that was like how I grew up. And so this is something where I didn't never self regulated with my parents. And so I self regulated alone. And so whenever I feel really overwhelmed and really stressed out, it's not a conscious thing where like I need to retreat, you know, for whatever reason, it's completely unconscious thing that still runs me which is like I need to retreat and deal with these things alone. And it could be that subconsciously I feel like I'm a burden or that, you know, like I don't want to bother people, I. Or that I'm not really that great at actually being that vulnerable. Like I'm more comfortable talking about my background of abuse than I am about the current stuff that I'm going through right now in this present moment. And like, you know, just really like really understanding and unpacking that and realizing like it's not until, you know, I had really amazing friendships that I started feeling comfortable about maybe self regulating with them a little, you know, co regulating with them a little bit more. And then that started coming into like, okay, like now I'm in a really secure relationship where I've, I'm starting to learn to co regulate with her but like I still withdraw a lot. And just knowing that like now I learned how to communicate it differently where I'm just like saying like to my, you know, to my friends, like hey listen, I'm going through like a tough time, you know, of course I want to hear from you and I want to reach out but I'm going through a really sticky dark period of time right now and like I just don't know how to really communicate during this period. And I just Love for you to be patient. And my good friends have been with me for long enough, clients, long enough to know, like, it's a work thing. I'm going to answer. I'm gonna. I'm gonna help. I'm always there. I don't miss a meeting with work, but I will miss a lot of phone calls and, like, I will miss a lot of texts personally, because sometimes I just. I'm not there. And adding that tool into my tool belt, it's getting better. And I. You know, my therapist told me, like, in 2019, we started working together. She was like, you know, you have one tool in your toolbox, and it's a hammer. Like, you could have a screwdriver, you could have fire, you could have a Swiss army knife. And we're going to work on building those things in meaning. I need to get better at setting boundaries and communicating when I was heard and, you know, being assertive and, like, you know, asking for what I wanted and, like, not people pleasing as much and checking with myself. All those things are tools that I simply just felt more comfortable applying in work. And, like, now it's like, I'm using it to apply in my personal life, and it's not easy. It gets easier with time to learn how to do that. But I just want to tell you, like, that withdraw thing, I think, for me at least, would be an indication of that's, like, for getting curious about ourselves for a moment, that that's, like, an adaptive thing that you picked up at whatever point in time and it served you really well at the time and just to be loving to that part of you and know that it's serving you not as well now. And so how do we kind of navigate that and learn to trend, you know, translate that and communicate it to people around us so they don't feel rejected or abandoned or concerned.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's. I love that. And for me, definitely, yeah, I can think of childhood moments and, you know, parents just arguing and all that and withdrawing to myself and definitely figuring it out and, like, okay, it's up to me, I guess. And, yeah, that's. And we all have those kind of stories, and obviously parents and childhood is the foundation of everything, and it's up to us to, yeah, like, respect the kid who we have, but also realize we are not that kid. We have elements and all that, but we need to essentially say, hey, you're safe. You know, we are safe as well. And then there is something to do as adults or whatever age we are, we. When we Realize this really doesn't matter as long as when you realize it, you take action. And like you mentioned about you never miss a meeting. Same here. Like a business meeting or a business text. Like same. And clients, like, I will be right back to them. I will go over and beyond all this stuff. And then on the personal side, it's like, oh, how about that date night with my wife? Oh, it was on the calendar, but kind of maybe not a date night, but like time, let's say an hour or two we'll spend together. Well, we got busy. It's like, hold on, that was for us. Or it could be meditation, you know, workout, whatever that is for me. And also anyone listening, what is that thing that we're scheduling for ourself or that we should schedule and actually freaking do it? Like show up for ourself because that'll make all the difference and do it consistently. Just like we approach work, just like any other relationship. It takes time. And yeah, I mean for me, like I've, the last month I've been tracking these micro habits and these little, little things like 10 minutes of meditation or breath work every day. Cold shower or plunge, which, you know, it's, it's tough. Amber, do it.

I mean, I'm in San Diego, so I don't have the coldest water of a shower, but you. But things like that, journaling, like I got this, it looks like I have a ship log or something. But it's, it's amazing. And just the writing like pen to paper thing, I haven't done consistently until like the last month. And it's just wild when like I feel like the brain turns off. My brain will turn off and then the pin goes faster and I'm like, I don't know where these words are coming from but something when I read back, I'm like, wow, holy moly. Like that wasn't the thinking brain solving problems, that was something else. And it brings these deeper insights that then I can review and apply elsewhere. And it's usually rooted in, hey, I am so connected. I'm so abundant with my own talents and superpowers, but I know that's the same for everybody else and it's just connecting with people. Maybe not everyone, but the right people, it's the ones that are intuitively like, okay, going into this call and when I reached out for you to be on the podcast, it was a no brainer. I didn't know what the hell we were going to talk about, but I knew.

Great.

And still even like 10 minutes before the episode I was putting some notes together. I'm like. And I haven't looked at my notes this whole time, which I figured would happen anyway. And yeah, like, the right people just show up when we show up for them and for ourselves.

So, yeah, man, totally. Like, when you're talking, I was just, like, feeling really grateful that we can, like, be like, parallel lives and like, feeling like, I'd love to collaborate with you more like, out of virtual, like, calls, because it's. We. There's more of us out there than I think we realize, you know. And like, while I think, like, you know, the tactics and stuff that we could talk about, you and I could talk for hours and. And the podcast listeners could hear it about, you know, these sort of things that you can do in your business to grow it, things that you can do in your affiliate program to scale it. And there are so many podcasts like that. We've done that in this show together. You talk about it with regularity. But I just don't think there's as many people talking about, you know, the, the personal growth that they've gone through and how that is. How that is affecting and rippling out into their business and their communities and their families. And I think we should be talking about that because we are a whole person. And so this is just one part of our lives. It's a huge part of our lives. Lives. Yeah. You know, but it. And it's a huge part of our identity, but it's not our only identity. And it can become an addiction, this business part of it. And in a very unhealthy one, I think it's a more allowed one, but it is a very unhealthy one if you allow it to get out of control and to dictate every single part of your life, you know.

Good point. Yeah. It's like an allowed addiction. It's one that people don't say, hey, go. Go check yourself out or, you know, go to. Go take a retreat or whatever. I mean, whatever you got to do, do it. But yeah, it's. It's interesting and I curious of your thoughts on this, because going this path, I had resistance for myself because it wasn't the sexy thing to do. It's not the thing that would probably get all the. The clicks and views and listens is talk about self development or this feeling of what's our enough, our purpose in business and how that, you know, really does ripple out to everyone attached to the business, ourselves team, people buying, listening, whatever. It's this massive Ripple. And when I had that aha. And that was a couple years ago on the podcast, it brought me so much joy for what I do because I'm like, holy moly. Like, so every single person I picked to bring on this show is part of the co creation of this thing that I know is going to have massive ripple effects. Massive ripple effects. And it's going to affect their lives, their kids, their, their partners. And it's things I'll never know about. But it's, it's really cool to know that Ripple's there. And as you know, my audience has grown over the years and it's pretty cool. There are more listens now than there were then. It's still in my mind. I'm like, I don't know, it's not this sexy. Like it'll. This little thing will show up and be like, oh, it's not the AI. It's not the, you know, it's not the cool tactic that people say they want, but it's the thing that I feel like people will be late at night thinking about or reassessing, hopefully something they're doing in their day to day that will make that ripple stronger, maybe longer lasting than the latest affiliate marketing tactic or landing page or swipe that we should all be trying out sequence, you know. Yeah, that's, that's for me with this shift that you're going about like, and tell us about how you're doing that a little bit with your companies too and if there's any of those types of things that pop up.

Yeah, man. Well, I think, you know, when you're talking again, we're just kind of volleyballing back and forth for this call. But I think like AI and algorithms and Web3 and all these things are so interesting and they're so fast moving and they can help, you know, grow our businesses so much, grow our reach to any point in the world, you know, make us go faster, make money, all these things. But the challenge that I have with them is that there is a lack of focus on the end user, the, the person at the other end of the line. Like even when you're doing algorithms. I had so many people pre co. You know, pre Covid and pre the. The Google's privacy update that were like, I started with affiliates, I used to do it but like, man, I could do better on paid media. I'll just scale on that, that I don't have to deal with humans. And like, you know, they're so radical, so inconsistent and like all these things I Just don't want to do it. So like I'm just going to do paid media because it's better, easier, faster. I can sc. They're the same people that when they got kicked off of the platforms or you know, that had the privacy update happen or what have you, that came back to me were like, holy shit, we need to instill this into the business again and kind of grow it so that we have something that's not dependent on algorithms. Because as long as you treat people well, your affiliates well, you know, and you like, you pay them on time, you take care of them, you answer their emails, you know, you'll have an affiliate program, right? And so you'll have something that's going to keep you going. People overhead all these things and it could arguably, because I've seen this, I work with hundreds of companies a year via 7, 8, even 9 figure channel for you in your business. But you know, if you always look at it as like it's just something that is nice to have or that we're going to do it and affiliates are like, you know, inconsistent and largely because you think about, you get, if you think you're right about it, you're going to be proven right. You know, if you think people are shading and consistent and untrustworthy, you're going to treat them like that and that's the results that you're going to get, right? And so I think that that's like a really important lesson. And like when you're talking about AI and all this other stuff, the instinct is like, well, now I don't have to deal with people. Well, you still do because you're serving people at the core end of it. We're all serving a person at the other end. And so if we're not focusing on how we treat them, right, Even with affiliate clients that I work with, you know, and I'm looking at their, their program, I'm looking at two parts. I'm looking at the structure of the program and I'm looking at the people, right, which is the people who are driving their, their, you know, team for, who's their affiliate manager, who's their market manager, who are their affiliates, right? On the other end of that, the structure is determined by the market, right? Like how much you're paying, what you're paying, how high of a cpa, the commission structure, the tech sector and the tracking, all that stuff's market determined. There's already kind of best practice there, right? So you can look at it and say check, check, check, I have it. This is on weekend and week here and we hear, you know, I need to add these things in and then the people, right, are different. Like how you treat the people on your team, how you treat your affiliate partners, are they an inconvenience or are they a joy? You know, is really going to determine the success of your affiliate program, not just the structure. And so I think that that's a big thing that I keep harping on is like, who's the end user here? And your affiliate program, the end user is not the client that comes in from the funnel that they promoted, it's your affiliate partner.

Yeah.

And so just really kind of flipping that on its head and saying, are we treating them at the gold standard? And what I mean by gold standard is do we treat them as if they're a joy? Do we treat them with the understanding of this is a voluntary person that has volunteered their hand to promote my products and services usually most of the time on performance. So why wouldn't I have the most optimized funnel with for them, the, you know, the most proven email swipe copy, you know, the best looking graphics, the most responsive team members to serve them. That's part of serving them. Right. And so like why wouldn't I want to give them the highest payouts possible if it makes sense, why wouldn't I want to work on increasing my average order value, my lifetime customer value so I can pay them more? They're not a faceless algorithm. They're my friends. They could be Kerry Nealand and Jeff Siegel, who live a stone store away from my. Wouldn't I think this through and not go the cheapest route, you know, the, the cheap Filipino customer service agent that like, not to say there's anything wrong with that. We have some of those on our team, but like would I trust them to deal with my highest caliber VIP relationships? No, because I have. They're not. I didn't invest enough in them to get them to the level where they can handle these key relationships and I. That generate me millions of dollars a year. And so I think that this is something that, you know, as great as AI is. So there's stuff. Is it going to make me treat the end user, which is in this case my affiliate partners, better? Are they going to feel more taken care of, more seen more appreciated by me or is it going to take away from that? And it's the same thing with your team member. Like I see most people putting affiliate managers in there are also their customer service manager, also their assistant you know, you know, why are you putting this person in this position to fail? And then you're not training them up on how to negotiate, how to represent your offers well, how to, you know, how to. How to treat the affiliate partner well, how to be proactive on things that they might need. Like, that's just the thing that more the AI grows and the more that we feel like we can deploy these tools to make life easier and faster, better and use algorithms, the more that I think this side of it is going to be a luxury, because I'll tell you, when your ad account gets shut down, you want a person on the other line, you wish you could call Facebook and call them and be like, hey, what's going on? At that point, you're like, oh, my God, I do anything for a person. You know, But I think that that's just like, for me, this. The hill that I'm going to die on, which is like, we need to get better. If we're doing affiliate marketing at treating the core end user, which is our affiliate partners, if that's a part of our program, you know, like, like gold. And not just our clients and customers, they're gold.

And they are literally our. They're our representative in a lot of different ways for our brand, which that's what we're growing. You know, each of us have a brand. And you talked about this before is that's the power of it. Like, people attach to brands, they attach to personalities, which is a brand, and who knows what can come from there? But, yeah, like, I know this show has a brand. It might not all be me. I don't necessarily want it to, but I know there's an attachment there, too. So anybody who's going to rep me as an affiliate manager is sure as hell going to be invested in the brand and represent that very well.

Yeah, totally, man. And, like, I think that that's. That's also the recognition, like, you are willing to change. You're different than I talked to you two and a half years ago. You know, you don't have a business partner in this anymore. You're talking about different stuff. I applaud you for doing that. That's brave. You know, there's a feeling of, like, I need to have this external Persona to the world and be different internally with my friends. And I think that's part of it. It's just collapsing the mass and just like collapsing these different walls and just being like, hey, this is who I am, who I'm interested in, why I'm Changing. It's what I'm doing right now. My businesses, you know, e spit going and shutting down the agency and doubling down on recruiting. We're finding these like amazing affiliate managers and replace them in house. And why are we doing that? Because every successful affiliate program that I have seen at scale and I've worked with ClickBank for since 2016, all the core companies since 2017, Organifi Workbook, some of the biggest companies on earth, they all have in house affiliate managers, all of them. They're not outsourcing it to these agencies. They're not doing that stuff. So if you're serious about it, we want to help you find a level talent. We also don't want to be the one doing it for you because it burnt us out so much because we weren't just a normal agency. We were doing so much additional work. And that's always how I'm going to be. So if we can bring in these great affiliate managers, if we can train them through our programs, if we can introduce them to affiliate partners and we can teach them, hey, here's how you talk to them. You know, you're having trouble with them because you're coming with the mentality that, that you need to with them and give them less money than you're paying Facebook. Why are you doing that? Right? Like, why are, you know, let's talk about the mentality here. You know, let's talk about the structure. Why do you not have these assets, you know, but you give it to your media buyer and give it to your affiliate partner, this voluntary person that is risking their brand and taking the transfer of their brand and transferring that trust to you, like, that's really something that we need to think about, you know, and like, just being willing to start changing that publicly and saying we're going to double down on this because I think we can reach more people and help, you know, kind of increase and change and elevate the, the way that the space is operating. And it's the thing with my mastermind, you know, changing it from Mimosa Mastermind, where I had a partner, you know, who I love and appreciated so much. But, like, we're just going like this in our lives and like, being willing to say, you know what, I want to buy you out. And I work so hard on this brand, but it doesn't resonate with me anymore. I want to change it to four rooms because I want to focus on the four parts that I think are most important in entrepreneurship. Your physical health, your wealth, your, your scale. Of your business and your relationships with yourself and with others. And so like, that's what I'm focusing there. And it was, is a variable mood. But I'll tell you, like, you know, I did it in November, it was only a few months ago, where I decided two weeks before my annual event, I was going to change the name, change the brand. Didn't have a website, still don't almost gonna launch it. You know, I was in the middle of doing this event and I also had consultants come in and I was like, I want to turn it into a mastermind. It's only ever been an event company. We're going to turn it in a mastermind. Are people gonna like four rooms? Are they gonna want to do this? Because I'm not making promises of a 500x growth. And like, you know, all this other stuff, stuff they grow in my mastermind. They always have. That's why we have a 78 return rate, 86 renewal rate to sponsors. Like, we do a great job of placing people in the rooms. And by the way, that's how the other side of my company operates. We have a 1.6 attrition rating in our memberships. It's insane. It's unheard of, right? Like, we are really good at retention and picking and picking things. What we need to work on is the marketing of it, which is what we're doubling down on this year. But like, you know, I got in front of the room and I didn't want people to have to choose between mom and dad. I didn't want them to feel like, oh, Amber and Brett went through a divorce and now we're getting in front of the room and it's going to be this hard sell. And we hired these people to look at what I was doing and you know what I was going to create and launching this mastermind, going from hey, pay for event, free event, to now join us at 35,000 a year and let's do more together. And let's let me serve you at a different level and let's focus on these four areas. Like, that was very stretchy for me. And then hiring these people that were experts and they are experts, but not experts in what I was trying to do. And I got in front of the room and I just said the truth. Like, I've changed a lot. And I think you guys have all seen it and you've seen that I'm happier than I've ever been, that I'm more me than I've ever been. When I first started this industry. Fifteen years ago, I'm wearing fake acrylic nails and walking around with a suit on and. And, like, acting like I wasn't gay and, like, all stuff. And now you see me, completely me in my element, like. And, like, I'm here to serve you. And this is what I want to build, and this is what I want to focus on. And for those of you that feel called to do this with me, please do it. I'm not going to tell you to go in the back of the room, even though every consultant that we've hired has said you have to do that. Like, I just want to tell you, if not one of you sign up for it, that's okay, because I'm not going to do the same thing I was doing. This is what I'm doing. And, like, so many people raise their hands. We filled 30 spots at that event, and we sold out to 50 in the last. Last less than two months. We just filled it, like. And, like, it's word of mouth. I haven't posted anything on Facebook. There's no website up yet. It's like, just because. And I had people like Glenn Wedgwell and JJ version, people came up to me and they're like, never seen that before. Never seen somebody do a soft pitch from stage. There's people crying in the audience. So I was like, I lost someone dear to me to suicide. I almost lost myself. I became suicidal. I was just focusing on growth for girl's sake. I lost my connection to so many of you in the room because I couldn't handle it. I lost my connection myself. Here I come reborn, like Lazarus years. I want to help anybody that wants to do that. And, like, we're going to grow together financially. We always fucking do. But I want to grow in a deeper way with you. And it's scary, but it's like I'm in the process of that. And we did that east fifth. So I had the courage because we made the changes over the last few years to now do it here. And, like, it's just. It just really touches me at such a deep level because this. This is like. This is the thing that, like, I always cried out for in my heart and wanted. And then seeing it happen real time, like, seeing before I was even done talking, someone like James Klein and somebody else, like, here's my credit card. Like, run it. Like, run it. We want to do whatever you want to do. We want to support you. It was like I was crying up there, you know, it was like. Like, it was like I didn't want. I wanted to do it my way, and I felt like I could do it. And just seeing that reaction told me that there's more of us out there than we realize. And in doing this whole process, there's more of us than we realize. And it was really. It's been really touching. I still am processing, you know, it still makes me feel really tender.

Oh, I can. I can hear how much it means to you, and it's making me. I'm, like, envisioning the room because I know I haven't done that kind of thing and expressed. Like, I've expressed my story and everything on the podcast. So for me, it's kind of fallen on. Well, really, no voices me, or. I'm not looking at everyone reacting, but I know, like, I posted something on Facebook maybe a month or a half ago about this whole idea of enough. Like, what's enough for us and in our business. And I still. I don't know if that's the word or not, but whatever, I think impacts enough to. To. To get that feeling and emotion. And so many people were commenting on that and reaching out to be on the podcast and wanted to share their stories, and I really have this backlog of people that now want to be on the show. And, hell yeah. You know, I feel like there are so many people just like that. Just like us, you, me, and everyone in that crowd and folks list that might not have thought about it that way or heard about it from someone they follow, but then realize, oh, yeah, like, we're all very similar. We all have our thing, and. And we want more people like that around us because we know it's just. We're gonna feel better. Everything else is gonna get better, and.

Yeah, man, it's okay. That's gonna walk you home for sure, you know, and, like, part of it is allowing that, and, like, it's. It's. But I think business is the best personal development that you can do if you really. If you really look at it and take a moment to step out and look at what you're really doing, you know, and it just. Again, I just feel so blessed that it's brought me people like you and given me an opportunity to do that. I've been so fortunate to have a business, you know, up until this year, both completely on referral.

Oh.

Or me speaking from stage, you know, and, like, now I'm entering in this new scary thing and being like, all right, we're not speaking from stage, so we need to create podcasts, and you know good marketing funnels and stuff so that I can reclaim more of my time, freedom. And it's scary, but, like, I'm willing to take that leap. And I know that there's people around me and my mastermind, or as clients or in my circle, in my community that have done it before and that they're willing to share and help guide me through this so that I can reach and impact more people and will help me. It's the next step. It's like I really do feel so deeply about it, about serving my clients. I care so deeply, and I want to serve more of them. And part of that is stepping into this higher league and doing it and doing it differently and being. And being willing to be brave like you're doing, you know. So I just want to commend you for that.

Thank you, Amber. Means a lot. And I'm excited to get your voice out there, for you to get your voice out there. Podcast marketing, all that. Because more people need to hear it and the more of us. Yeah. Champion this. This whole feeling, it's just gonna again, ripple effects. So.

Thanks, Jaime. I appreciate it.

This is. This is one of the most fulfilling, I think the most fulfilling podcast I've had. Well, hopefully my wife doesn't totally hear that. Cause we did a couple together. That was fun, too. Sorry, Heather.

Different.

It's different.

It's different. Yeah.

True. I'm serious.

Thank you.

Yeah. And I can't wait to share this around and we got to do this more often and actually meet up because I don't think we ever actually met up in person.

I know, dude.

Which I'm like, oh, my God.

We need to.

We will.

We need to. Yeah, I'd love that. I'll send you a list of what we're doing this year. I'd love to have you come as my guest.

Thank you. Thank you. Well, share. Share with others listening how they can follow along with all the new and amazing things you're doing and how they can get involved too.

Yeah. Great. Well, my, you know, my business to help companies increase their reach and the revenue with partnerships is East 5th Avenue. Love to support you in any way. We. We created a really cool ebook. I just didn't make it so that I have like the Legion. I think that's gross. It's actually really cool. Any level that you're at in business, we have a know your numbers guide and everything. So if you go to east fifth avenue.com give you can opt in on that. And if you end up wanting to work with a member of our team and just talk to us. We're happy to, but if not, I'd love to leave you better than I found you. And then we're launching for roomsmastermind.com which I just took a look at it. It's almost done. We have all kinds of cool events going on this year. We've got intensive workshops, big annual event, Austin in December. You know, my events are really different. We, of course, we bring in the best thought leaders and stuff to teach, but I hand pick where you're sitting. Every single large event dinner. I do deep intake forms on you to make sure that you're getting paired with the right experts and peers to, you know, support you. We do talent shows. We do costume, you know, parties. We do, like, all kinds of wild stuff in addition to, you know, the tactics. And I always have a day of just hanging out, you know, because I know that my members want that, and so they're different. So you want to check it out, you know, either company, I'm here to serve and just greatly appreciate you having me on again. And I hope we get to do this a lot more.

We will, we will. And get that know your numbers guide. I was checking it out. It's like 42 pages. I think it is of just something cool. Yeah, no, you're getting value. So if you have any questions about affiliate marketing and partnership, get it. So, Amber, appreciate you, as always. Much love. Yeah, we'll do this again.

Thanks, Joe. All right, homie, thank you.

All right, all right. That's what I got for you today. And remember, it's not all about living to work. It's all about working to live if you need to do the work. But, you know, work can be fun, and it should be feeling for your life. So if you enjoyed what you just heard, if you got some nuggets of wisdom that you want to share or you're just noodling on right now, please go tell others. The way that people find this show and how you can help others get their aha moments is through word of mouth. So if it is telling your friend, telling your family, send an email to your list, write number of view, or whatever it might be. Everything helps. So thank you so much for listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, and I will see you next time.