Gino Wickman - Entrepreneurs Are Born, Not Built

Hi, this is Geno Wickman. And if you think you might be an entrepreneur or you just launched your business, please check out this podcast with two amazing guys, Joe and Matt, at the Hustle and Flow podcast.

This is an intro, intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float Shark with your boy, my boy, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Hey, I would like some more organic traffic for our website.

Who wouldn't?

Yeah, we have a. We have a lot of traffic. Do you think everyone else would like more for their websites as well?

Can we do it for free?

Is this a rhetorical question? Yes, it's a rhetorical question. Dang. Right?

Yeah. Well, I want to know if I can do it for free.

Well, you can now. Why is that, Mr. Matt?

Because if you go over to ahrefs.comawt, they have a new tool. Well, it's a cool tool.

Yeah.

Called AhrefsWebmaster Tools, and it's over@ahrefs.com AWT and it does a lot of the same stuff that the full fledged Ahrefs does, but it's a free version.

So they basically made this tool webmaster tools. @ahrefs.com AWT, it's gonna monitor your SEO health of your website, so you can make sure. Hey, are there any issues I should be looking at? It basically scans your site. There's like, over 100 typical SEO issues that would, like Flag, Google, and all the search engines. Well, it's gonna tell you what's wrong with your site, so you know. Exactly. And actually, the advice on how to fix those things, that's pretty dang important. I mean, SEO still is our number one new traffic driver for our websites. Really? That's across all of our websites. That's how people discover us. So you might as well have a little read, a finger in the pulse of the health of your website. And the SEO, it also does backlink monitoring, all these other search traffic terms and things. It's free, though.

It's free. Yeah. Monitor your SEO health, backlinks, and keywords for free over at ahrefs.com awt that rhymed.

All right, we're rolling, Gino. We're finally here together.

It's great to have you looking forward to this, guys.

Yeah, man. So you. Well, you're feeling fresh, I'm assuming, right? You just came back from your. Your annual sabbatical. You were just telling us.

Well, just. Just came back. It's been. That was an August sabbatical, and we're talking at the beginning of November. It's been two months but absolutely, I take one every year in August, and there's no question I come back better, faster, clearer, more energetic, and felt exactly that way for this one.

Right on. Yeah. And I mean, did you have any AHA's, or do you have epiphanies during these moments that, like, change the course of your business?

You know, I actually do. There's always some level of aha, and this one was pretty good because, you know, I'm at an interesting place in my life.

After 20 years of building EOS worldwide and putting the finishing touches on that, ultimately selling that business, I now sit here with, like, five pieces of content that I teach the world. Okay. And we're obviously going to talk more about entrepreneurial leap than anything else, but it's EOS, the EOS Life Rocket Fuel, Entrepreneurial Leap, and the 10 Disciplines for Managing and maximizing your energy. And so the AHA was. Because that's a lot of content and it's like. But what I realized is. So this is the aha. Get ready. It's not very profound, but what I do is I talk about stuff. So that's the conclusion.

We're in good company here. Yeah.

And there's five things that I talk about, and I talk about those five things through speaking engagements, through my sessions, through podcasts, through articles. And so it was like a clarity moment. And like, my creativity went through the roof. And so right now we're about to talk about, you know, certainly mostly entrepreneurially, but some stuff. And the epicenter of it all is entrepreneurs. My obsession and my life and more than three decades is obsessing about entrepreneurs. That's what I do.

You do. And you've done that for. Yeah, over 20 years. You know, being one, obviously you've been one the whole time, but I know it goes back to, what, taking over the company from your dad and getting your. I mean, you had some. What, he kind of got you to do some of your own stuff prior to that, I believe. Yeah.

Yeah. A little different than that. Real fast version, though, is I was. I bumped along as an entrepreneur in the making until I got involved in the family business and took over the family business. So that's where I invented the visionary integrator concept. Because he was the visionary, I was the integrator. I really thought I could save that company. Took on a big turnaround, turned it around as a great dynamic duo and ran it for seven years, and then we sold it.

Yeah. Are you. And this is maybe going down the rocket fuel path. Cause that amazing book I Love that. And that brought so much clarity to how we operate as a duo here. So thank you for that.

My pleasure.

Do you still see yourself as an integrator?

No. So that's. That was the.

Aha.

Is I. You know what I write with Mark Winters in Rocket Fuel is that of all visionaries, about 5%. So 1 out of 20 have this ability to do both because it's a detail orientation they have. And so I'm one of the 5%. And so when I took over the family business, I was absolutely fully an integrator. And when I sold the business, I decided I never want to be an integrator again.

Take your time.

For me, it's a lot more fun being a visionary. And from that day on, it's been, what, 24, 23 years of being a visionary. This is where I like to play.

So it's possible to have that crossover.

It's possible, but rare. So be careful because a lot of visionaries kid themselves and they think they can do both when they're the 19 out of 20. So make sure you know where you are.

Take the test.

One thing I found interesting is that I think you made a mention in your book that second generation entrepreneurs, actually, it seems like they're less likely to succeed than first generation entrepreneurs. I think there was some stats in there. In fact, are those the stats that are on the screen right there?

32%. And then it kind of trickles down.

So 32% of second generation entrepreneurs where, what was it, 50% of first generation? Maybe I'm getting my math mixed up.

Yeah. Let me give a little context for the audience as you answer that. Plus, let's be careful not to bounce around on those poor people and too much of the content, because with five pieces of content, we're bouncing around. But what you're speaking to is the book Entrepreneurial Leap and this new passion project and the point I'm making. I write an entire chapter in there because that book is designed to help anyone who thinks they're an entrepreneur become one, discover if they are. And I show them a path. I write an entire chapter about second and third generations entrepreneurs because the failure rate is so high. And like you said, I'd have to pull up the. Yeah, it's 32% of second generations succeed, 13% of third generation and then 3% of fourth generation. So the point is, when a second, third or fourth generation take over, almost most of the time they don't have what it takes to become an entrepreneur. They're not a true Visionary. And so they just don't take the company to the next level. And so there's the context around where that context.

Oh, gotcha.

Yeah, I appreciate you adding that context. The reason I was bringing it up is I'm going a second generation entrepreneur as well. My dad was an entrepreneur, he had his own business. I was sort of in line to take over the company and it was around 2008 when the economy just kind of took a turn and the my dad actually ended up selling the company and the new owner. I went from feeling like I was an entrepreneur because I was sort of running things with my dad to now I'm somebody else's employee. And as somebody else's employee, I lasted about six weeks and then I was gone.

I thought you were going to say six days, but six weeks, I made.

It about six weeks.

So that's where that curiosity came from.

Well, let's. Yeah, and let's rewind because I think that just laid the stage of where. I mean that's what got this whole us to work together. Gino, and everyone listening is that was like the entry story. That's how we founded each other and started down the path. But yeah, let's go to the book Entrepreneurial Leap because it's interesting. You've done all the EOS stuff, traction, rocket fuel, get a grip of the other book over here. But now you're almost kind of going back to the beginning of the journey. So tell us the why, what's your passion there in the mission?

Yeah, for sure. And you're exactly right. I did it in reverse, but I had to do it in reverse. So I've spent over 30 years obsessing about entrepreneurs, how to help them, how they become successful, how to help them become successful. And so after 30 years and thousands of entrepreneurs, that knowledge and experience help me now go to the front end of the entrepreneurial journey and help entrepreneurs in the making. And you know, our passion always stems from some sort of wound pain in our life, a suffering, a problem we solve. And so I created EOS and wrote Traction and all the other books over the last 20 years to help entrepreneurs because of the passion from helping my entrepreneur father. This next project called Entrepreneurial Leap, which happens to be the name of the book as well, is a passion project to solve pain from when I was 18 years old. There's an old saying that says we teach what we needed the most by Danielle Kennedy. And I'm teaching my 18 year old self who was a mislabeled derelict. I was lost Confused, insecure, scared to death. As all my friends went off to college, I was so different from them. There was no way I was going to spend another day in academia, and I wanted to go to work and make money. Well, that was 18. It really took me till 29 to know exactly what I was, which was an entrepreneur. And So I lost 11 years. So this project is to help anyone out there at any age that thinks they might be an entrepreneur. It's going to help them discover and confirm whether they are or aren't, show them a glimpse of what the life looks like, and then show them a path to greatly increase their odds of success. And so that's what the passion project is all about.

I love it. Yeah. It's laid out so clearly, too, in the book. It's like a roadmap and tool guide, really.

Yeah. One of the things I found interesting and somewhat counterintuitive to what I feel like I've learned over the years is that you make mention that entrepreneurship is nature and not nurture. So you've kind of got to be born with it or you're not born with it, which seems to go against pretty much what every other guru on the planet is telling people, is that you could learn how to do this stuff. Can you provide a little more context around that thinking?

Yeah, you bet. I piss people off with that philosophy and I'll stand by it to my death. So here's the reality. So again, there are six essential traits that define a true entrepreneur. You're born with them, they can't be taught. It's nature over nurture, to your point. And here's the beauty, though half the world agrees with me, it's the other half of the world that don't. And here's just for the record, I hope I'm wrong. But here's what's criminal to me is to try and convince 7.5 billion people on this planet and believe that they can all become entrepreneurs is dangerous. And so, you know, the goal here is to impact a million entrepreneurs in the making. And I believe I can greatly improve the success rate for an entrepreneur starting and building and running a business. And the way I'm going to do that is two ways. I'm going to talk the ones out of it that should never take the leap, because what I'm doing is, I know that that breaks hearts, but I'm saving lives. I'm saving you 10 years of sheer hell. And so that's going to increase the success rate. And then certainly the ones that are and take the leap, which is about 4% of the population. I'm going to show them a path that will greatly increase their odds of success and that will overall increase this horrific success rate of entrepreneurs taking leaps.

That is a good point because that whole, the failure rate, quote, unquote failure, I don't know if it's deemed a failure. But you know, in business, shutting down, that was always, I think that was in my head when we first jumped in, me individually, you know, because I did college and I know there's a section in the book if you do college or not, there's pluses and minuses. It was definitely a social thing and the people thing more for me, which I think you had the same, even though you didn't go to college. So. But yeah, it's interesting because the failure rate is typically on the minds of new entrepreneurs and business owners. And I love the mission that you have here. It's like, hey, let's save some lives. Let's piss off a lot of people in the process. But it does make sense.

You know, I appreciate you saying that. You know, and I would one other thing, if I can just do a little riff because, you know, for your audience, I want them to hear this most important part and then we'll go wherever you want to go. But again, like I said, the book is written in three parts. Confirm, glimpse, path. So on confirm. Here's the lightning fast kind of litmus test and filter for you because there's six essential traits. They are visionary, passionate, problem solver, driven, risk taker and responsible. And so like I said, you're either born with them or you're not. But I urge you to kind of scan your body on those six and think about, have you exhibited them your whole life? Then I offer a free assessment on the website e-leap.com it's free if you score 90 or higher. Odds are you probably have the six essential traits. But then the last point I'll make and then I'll shut the heck up. But I teach something in the book called the entrepreneurial range. And this is something that helps take the sting off if I've broken your heart. And what I mean by that is the entrepreneurial range. If you draw this in front of you or picture it in your mind, there's this arc at the top it says entrepreneurial range. To the far right it says true entrepreneur. To the far left it says self employed. And so the point is, anyone that owns their own business is somewhere on that range. The far right are the Greatest entrepreneurs of all time. Elon Musk, Walt Disney, Oprah Winfrey, Sarah Blakely, Henry Ford. To the far left are all the one person shows. Sole proprietor, somebody with a side hustle, a freelancer, et cetera. And so your audience is made up of people all over that range. What I urge you to do is if you don't have the six essential traits, if you score low on the assessment, you're more on the left side of the range and you could still be a one person show. It doesn't mean you can't be self employed. It just means it's highly unlikely you're going to build an organization with people. And so the six essential traits in a true entrepreneur and what I'm speaking to in this book are people on the right side of that range. So it's not like it's a death sentence. It's not like game over. And then the last little point is being an entrepreneur is not like this ultimate destination in life. It's one career Choice, it's for 4% of the population. The other 96%, there's like a thousand other choices. So you know, this is like in the 70s and 80s, everybody wanted to be a rock star. Today everybody wants to be an entrepreneur. It's just simply who we are.

It's not something that you do. So there's my humble two.

That's perfect. That actually answered the next question that I was about to ask. So that's perfect. It's funny because Joe and I, we both took the assessment. I think Joe did it last night. I took it 45 minutes ago and I actually ended up with a 77% and I think Joe came up with a 91% on the thing. And so I started putting in job applications.

We're wrapping up shop tomorrow. So.

Thanks, dude.

You're partners in business, right? Yeah. So that's the beauty. And so again, Joe's probably the visionary, Matt, you're probably the integrator. But the point is this. I, in the third part of the book Path, I teach nine stages of building your business. And the second stage is for you to decide if you're a partner person. What makes you guys work is you. Matt, as a 72 or whatever you said, you know, you're probably not going to build an empire on your own, but partnering with someone is more for you. But you got to decide if you're a partner person or not. So that's why it works, that's why you guys are successful. And, and so that's, that's that and left on your own mat. You just have to admit to yourself I'm probably not going to go be the next Elon Musk. But what I'm trying to help you understand is that's okay. We're not all destined to build billion dollar tech unicorns. That's not the ultimate destination.

You actually said the right. Like the thing in my mind, you know, is through that explanation, that context of the assessment, which definitely everyone should go check that out@e leap.com go check it out. It's free. I think it's on the top tab or something. And it takes like a minute or two if you're truthful, it doesn't take that long. And that's the key. Be truthful. But like it takes the, I guess the pressure off because the way that I think you helped us put more context around that and the results because it's not like, oh, you're doomed for failure. Don't even think about doing your own business thing because if you're on the lower range, you could do some cool lifestyle type business. You can do gigs and kind of separate yourself from maybe a day job that you don't like. And that's okay. If you're on the lower end, you don't have to be the Elon of the world. I mean, I don't think we want to be the Elon. It took us a long time to realize that because we didn't have this clarity when we first began.

Hear, hear.

And like a great example I love to give, they just kind of detach everyone's mind from technology because that's the first place everyone goes. But if you have handy skills, you could be a handyman or a handy woman charging 60 bucks an hour. Be all the way to the left end of that entrepreneur range. Make 100 grand a year, six figures, you're totally free, you're totally independent, you're self employed. That's frickin heaven. So that's what's possible for you. That's all the benefits. But if you do have the six essential traits and score 90 or higher, I promise you within five to 10 years you're going to end up with a construction company. But there's no shame in being a handyman or woman for 20, 30 years making 100 grand a year.

That's the thing, it's like take the pressure off yourself. And I think this is what it's actually helped us because we recently had a realization because I know one of the things I think during the path section is Kind of letting your business get away from you. Like, there was one of these stages of business way down there. But that's what we realized, probably because we didn't totally understand ourselves fully, even though we'd done the Colby, which I know you recommend as well. I'm more quick start. He's lesser. So it makes sense with what you said. But we realized the business was getting a little further away from us, so we just recently trimmed things down to really focus on the core stuff that lights us up. Going back to the values and whatnot. Yeah.

I'm curious. Can you define how. How would you define visionary?

Yeah, I thought there was gonna be more words after.

Me too.

I was trying to think of.

I was.

I was going to add more words, but then I went, that's the question. How would you define visionary?

That's a question mark. So I'm gonna give you two answers because there's this short and sweet, to the point. And so whenever we're working with a client with eos, and we're creating your accountability chart, crystallizing roles and responsibilities, there's basically five major roles of a visionary. Typically. Okay, so these are typical. You're going to customize it for every visionary. But at high level, it's typically the vision. So the visionary is accountable for creating the vision, being cutting edge, staying ahead. So vision number two is creative problem solving. They're great creative problem solvers. Number three is the culture. So they're typically great with the culture. Not all visionaries, but most. They're great. They have this cultural barometer. They can just like read it. Number four is R and D. So they're just great at R and D, research and development, constantly honing and refining the product or the service. And then number three is selling. They're great salesmen. So they're great with big relationships. They're out there schmoozing and talking to people. Selling again, typically. So that's the five in Rocket Fuel. What Mark and I is, we do like a three to five page riff that it goes so much deeper. And I also do a three to five page riff in Entrepreneurial Leap where you just see the visionary and vivid color. But those are the big five, because inside of that, then a visionary typically has ADD and a grand suit. So I can't read you a three to five page riff right now. But they also have these six essential traits we're talking about. There are these wild and crazy beings that are just idea people and great at growing stuff. And when they're fully put in that position and taken out of the day to day and having to manage people in details, they flourish, but typically, they're mired in all those details because they started the business, they're growing it, and they're still entrenched in the business. And the day they find that perfect integrator match, boom, the business takes off and goes to the next level, Right?

Yeah.

The reason I was asking, too, is because back when Joe and I did the rocket fuel assessment, he came out as a visionary, I came out as an integrator, and I almost felt a little like my ego got the best of me. I was like, but I feel like I'm a visionary, too. Like, how come you get to be a vision? So I wanted to hear it defined just so I could man himself.

Yeah. And that's my wish. You're not alone, Matt. That happens all the time. And even with this book, everybody wants to be an entrepreneur, and when they find out they're not, they're heartbroken. So if we could set our e aside and just focus on our soul and what. What our soul wants us to be and why we were put on this planet, that gives you freedom to just, I love to say, let your freak flag fly. And so if you're the world's greatest integrator or you're a great integrator, just go be an integrator. You're adding so much value. But just as quickly, if you're a doctor, a lawyer, a cop, a nurse or whatever, I mean, we need them all in this world. Excel at what you're genetically encoded to do.

I love it. Yeah. And again, it takes the pressure off us, you know, when actually understand. I mean, that's what Matt and I did as a partnership. We're like, okay, let's take the Colby, the disc, and let's combine our results. We actually noticed there was, like, this crazy overlap. Almost like 50, 50 perfect overlap. We're like, wow. Okay, so we just got to share a vision and mission and just make sure we're communicating, you know, you're here.

I mean, I want to be a pro golfer, man. That's what I want to be. And I can't stop shooting in the high 90s. So I got. I got. I got to stop and just enjoy golf for what I am. I'm not going to become a pro golfer.

Exactly, exactly. Just steep, all hit ball. Don't think about it. Well, I mean, so the second section of entrepreneurial leap is glimpse, and I think we were kind of hinting to it a Little bit. There's a lot of people that might think they're entrepreneurs or if they are, and I mean they all are, if they're actually taking the risk and putting themselves out there in business. But you know, there's like living the dream and living the nightmare and we've definitely all experienced some element of that. But how would you define that? And maybe someone listening or watching can you can be like, oh wait, that's me. And here's what I can kind of do about it for sure.

Yeah. So going back to context really quick. So what I'm doing in glimpse, once we confirm that you're an entrepreneur, then we can start having this conversation. Because if you're not, it's a lot of wasted words on the conversation. But now let's pretend you scored 90 or higher. You've got the six essential trades you're ready to run. Before we go to path and you get to work, I stop you and say, let's just show you the life. Let's show you all that is possible. And I do three very specific things and we'll get to your question because it's one of the three. The first, I just share countless real world stories of people who were right where you are and how they built what they built. Another thing I do is I share with you all of your options. Because like I said earlier, being a billion dollar tech unicorn is not the only destination for an oper, for an entrepreneur. And so I created a tool called my bizmatch. Every one of these tools are free on the website, but what it does is it helps you figure out the business you're building for drawn to industry type size. Nothing wrong with building a $4 million heating and cooling company with 30 people.

That's right.

And then the third thing I do is to your point, Joe, is is I teach a day in the life, both heaven and hell. Okay? And so when it's good and when it's bad. And so I teach living the dream and I teach living the nightmare. And sadly, most entrepreneurs are living the nightmare and some live the dream. And what I share is by teaching that contrast, so you can see the contrast are the eight critical mistakes that almost every entrepreneur makes when they start their business. And I'll just quickly share what they are. And if there's one that jumps out at you, you know your audience better than me. We'll drill down on one. But here are the eight critical mistakes that all entrepreneurs almost all make when they start their business. So number one is not having a Vision Number two is hiring the wrong people. Number three is not spending time with your people. Number four is not knowing who your customer is. Number five is not charging enough. Number six is not staying true to your core. Number seven is not knowing your numbers. And number eight is not crystallizing roles and responsibilities.

Yeah, and I think one of them we've been kind of hammering at is, is not knowing your true core. You know, number six, that is because I know that that resonates here. We've chatted a lot about it on other episodes as well. Maybe we drill in on the vision. So the very first one, not having a clear vision, how would you guide folks to initially kind of start that process? And I know in the book you dig into some very specific ways.

No, in my style, again, this is a passion project. I'm not trying to tease anybody with anything. We're go as deep as you want into these tools. So as I answer that, I'm going to jump to Path really fast because there's a tool I created in Path called My Biz Match. Again, free and I'm not by, I'm sorry, my vision clarifier, free and downloadable on the website. So that tool is the tool designed to help you as a potential entrepreneur with your business idea, capture your vision. It gets you to answer eight aspects of your vision and it gets you to think about that. And until you answer all eight of those, until you are clear on those eight, you don't have a vision. And the critical mistake here is that a typical entrepreneur will take the leap. And through sheer force and will and stamina and charisma, they start to build this thing and sell stuff and make money and add people and everybody's just kind of following that energy. And it's a bit rudderless and it bumps along and it's less efficient and effective. But to back up and have a clear vision before you leap, even though that vision and plan is going to change, you're going to keep evolving. Your odds soar that you'll succeed. And so it's about clearly knowing what your passion is. It's about clearly knowing who your customer is. It's about clearly knowing your message to your customer. And then we start to boil it down because then it's clearly knowing what the 10 year overriding goal is, what the three year plan is, what the one year plan is, what the 90 day plan is. And so you go from this vision all the way down to what do I got to get done in the next 90 days? And you share that with your people. So you're aligning your people and your customers and your vendors so everyone knows where we're going. You will get there faster.

Yeah.

So once you know the vision, you can reverse engineer the vision. But if you don't have the vision, there's nothing to reverse engineer yet.

Exactly. And what the beauty of it is enforcing you to answer those eight things and understand those eight aspects. You don't necessarily have to go in a sequential order, but you've got to answer them and exactly right. Sometimes you'll reverse engineer into the 10 year goal or so. There's lots of ways to do it, but nonetheless, you got to fill in all those blanks. And until you fill them all in, you absolutely. Because one of the one I left off, I think it's the fourth one is just your pricing model. I'm forcing you to come up with your pricing model before you go to market. You can't wing it in front of the customer. So. So those are the eight aspects to my Vision Clarifier. And again, it's in the book, it's on the website for free. And then I'll just say one last little to put a tidy bow on what we talked about there. The first tool was the entrepreneur and the making assessment. The second tool was my biz match. The third tool was my vision Clarifier. Each part of the book, Confirm Glimpse Path has a tool. Those are the three tools and we call those tools 1, 2, 3 roadmap. And so on the website, if you click on the 1, 2, 3 roadmap in an hour, you can fill out those three tools and literally have a roadmap to start a better startup. 10 minutes on the assessment, 20 minutes on my Bismatch, about 30 minutes on my vision Clarifier. And all of a sudden you will start getting clarity, have a roadmap and you'll be ready to go.

And that's at e-leap.com tools I believe. Right.

You got it. But e-leap.com, if you just go there, it'll hit you right in the face.

So yeah, no, I love this because this is for everyone listening probably. Because I'm sure even if you are kind of new to entrepreneurship or haven't totally dove in, there are these things that I wish we had when we started 12 plus years ago. And I mean just the vision thing has come up so many times with Matt and I, obviously as a duo, but individually as well. We always called it the North Star. Like what's our North Star? Where are we headed? It was always kind of fuzzy, but I love the way that you make it so specific.

Yeah. And if I may, you prompt something funny because you're exactly right. Everybody should go do it. Because one of two things are going to happen. You're going to fill that out an hour and your energy is going to go through the roof and you're going to be ready to run or all the energy is going to go out of your body. You're going to want to take a nap. Okay. If you want to take a nap, you're not an entrepreneur. This is not for you. So the reason I bring that up is I've taken so many people through the process, one on one live, that I know the ones that are going to succeed and the ones that aren't. Because when we get down to that 90 day plan, they're so overwhelmed. They have no energy, they have no interest in doing the work. So it's just a sign they don't have all six essential traits. Everybody or a lot of people have an idea, but they're incapable of turning that idea into a reality.

And again, it takes like, if we allow ourselves to take the pressure off ourselves because like you said, you could slug it out for the next 10 years and probably hate life doing it or make a lot of other people pissed off. And, you know, we don't want to do that. There's better things for you.

Exactly right, man. I'm saving lives, man. You really are.

All right, well, one of the last little rabbit holes I want to go down with you is in the path section of your book. You've got your eight essential disciplines to increase your odds of success. Can we maybe break those down real quick for people? Because I think that'd be something really valuable to wrap up with.

Yeah, I'll do the same thing. I'll give you the high level and grab one that you want to drill down on. But here are the eight disciplines for increasing the odds of success as you launch your business. Number one, clarify your vision. We obviously talked about that one. Number two, decide if you're a partner person. We touched on that a little earlier. Number three, know that the bigger the problem you solve in the world, the more successful you will be. Number four, get feedback from customers and clients early and often. Number five, know that your first plan will not be your final plan. Number six, work hard, really hard. Number seven, take criteria, criticism, and doubt from others with a grain of salt. And number eight, see it every night. So which one jumps out at you?

There I have my thoughts, but I chose the last one. Matt, you get to choose this time.

Well, the one that resonated with me as you were saying, it was the know your first plan will not be your final plan because we mentioned before we hit record that we've had some, some pivots, right?

For lack of a better word.

And so our first plan was not.

Our.

Our 10th plan was probably our real plan, you know, so that's probably the one that resonates the most with me. I don't know if you have more words on it because it almost sounds fairly self explanatory, but maybe there's some additional stuff you want to add to that.

For sure, because what we're talking about here is a discipline, okay? And so the discipline is people get.

So.

Bought into, wrapped up in, entrenched in their first plan that they're inflexible and they're so in love with that plan, they don't see when it's time to change and they run it right into the ground. So the discipline is knowing. So when you fill out 1, 2, 3, roadmap and you've got this wonderful document that's all filled out with these eight aspects and you're feeling really good, get ready. Somewhere between day one of launching your business and day 3065, you're going to have a change. And I always say, have a plan B, C and D, it's going to change a lot. And then one little example. You know, I sit here 21 years after launching EOS worldwide and we've got 130,000 companies using the EOS tools. I just sold my millionth copy of Traction. By all measures, I sit here looking pretty smart and pretty successful. Well, you should have seen the first seven years. And so I joined forces with a partner, Don, 16 years ago to officially leverage EOS worldwide, where we started adding implementers. Well, a year and a half in, we weren't making a penny, we weren't making any money, and we had to completely change the model. And I sat in a Starbucks for a day. There were two books I read, I poured over all the data and we completely changed the model. I called Don, I said, don, I'm about to turn our business on its ear. Point is, it's terrifying, it's not easy. You gotta make the changes. So if I would have rigidly held onto the first plan, there would be no EOS right now. So you gotta be flexible. So again, it's the discipline of knowing your first plan is not gonna be your Final plan.

It would escape me if I didn't mention our really good buddy and listener, Dan Ryan. He absolutely loves eos, so I think you have changed his life. So he's a. He's a valuable listener. He's a good buddy of ours, so he's the one that actually got us into your world as well. So thank you, Dan.

So nice to hear. Hi, Dan.

Hey, Dan. Yeah, man. I mean, I love the whole, you know, be flexible. And at the same time, I know you mentioned this in the book, and we definitely experiences. The more you're in business, the more opportunities you see, the more things come your way. So how would you balance. What's your balancing act a little bit to stay on the true course, you know, on this topic, and also maybe still keep an eye on some opportunities that might have a good place.

And so now. Now you're getting into that. Those eight critical mistakes and the one about, you know, staying true to your core. So what happens is, let's just hypothetically say that you want to build a $10 million.

Software development company, okay, with 50 people. And so you set out and you do that. The idea is to stay focused on that core. Software development. That's your genetic encoding, in a specific market, in a specific niche, with a specific customer. So the more successful you become, year 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, more opportunities are gonna come at you. Well, the critical mistake is you start getting distracted by all that shiny stuff, and you start adding businesses onto your businesses, starting other businesses, and you dilute your focus. Well, I'm a fanatic about focus. And so, yes, there's the tiny percent of stories you hear about the entrepreneur that started eight different businesses. But it's an anomaly. It's rare in. Most fail when they do that. So my point is always, until you exhaust every opportunity in that and do your 10 million, don't look anywhere else. So Jim Collins has a great quote. He says, in business, you're more likely to die of indigestion from too many opportunities than from starvation of not enough. And so what you as an entrepreneur have to get good at is saying no to a bunch of stuff. So you're genetically encoded to want to pursue shiny stuff. And so you got to fight the urge, because statistically, it will put you out of business or at least worst case, slow your growth. And you're not getting a 10 million. And so if being a $10 million software development company is priority one, that's got to lead your decisions. And you got to fight that urge to get distracted by all the shiny stuff and get taken off of your core.

Oh man, that's good. And there's also a quote that is in the book. I forget it's maybe in this section is from Warren Buffet on Focus because I think you even said in your signature you have something around Focus. Right. Email signature. But his quote was the difference between successful people and really successful people is that really successful people say no to almost everything. I was like that. That hits home. And yeah, the more when you're in business, man, the more those things just keep showing up. Especially as a podcaster, everyone wants to be on a show for some reason. I don't know why, but gotta say no a lot.

Well, I'm glad that this show was one of the opportunities you said yes to.

Thank you. Yes.

You were actually on our hit list. So to give you a little shout out there, you were highly recommended. So I'm thrilled that we finally pulled this off after like a year. So we're finally here together.

Yeah. And the book's amazing. So definitely everyone go grab the entrepreneurial leap. Go to e-leap.com for all the cool resources. And where's the best place to grab it would be on your website or somewhere else.

It's all major retailers. You know, Amazon is where most copies sell. But if you go to the website, it'll show you all the retailers. You can buy them in books bulk there. So e-leap.com is the epicenter of all things entrepreneurial Leap. I also put a video video out every week, an article every two weeks. So just a wealth of free content. But absolutely. You can also get the first 30 pages of the book for free so you can get the a free chapter of the book just to see if it kind of sucks you in and intrigues you to buy the whole book and read the whole book so you can put your toe in the water as well.

Nice. Yeah, I mean I love the fact that you're, you're in a level in your life and maybe there's always what you've done, but you're just giving away all the goods. I mean you've seen it for 20 plus years and it's really cool. And I love chapter 16. I was a big fan of all these resources. This isn't for free as a free chapter, but what it's called a lifetime growth, learning and motivation. And it's just stacked with resources of different books you could be reading non fiction fiction, biographies and cool resources and quotes. I was just like, like dude.

Yeah. And by the way, to your point, I put all of those on the website. Right now the audience is going, wow, I gotta buy the book to see his laundry list of books.

It's on the website.

So with that said, if you think this is for you and you want to take this leap, you gotta buy this book and study this book like your manual in life. Because there's pre law, there's pre med, this is pre entrepreneurship. But, but start with all the free stuff and make sure that this is the life for you and then jump in with both feet. So yeah, I put all those on the website. Call me crazy, but.

You get by giving.

That's right, you do. Saving lives. Gino. Cool, man. Is there any last thing? Oh, actually I wanted to ask this. Where do you see entrepreneurial leap going? Because you said this is like a 10 year project plus in the making. So what's next?

Yeah, I really appreciate you asking that. So it's a ten year project, which I'm two years into. So eight years to go. The goal is to impact a million entrepreneurs in the making. So we got eight more years to do that. And the way that we're doing that is by joining forces with collaborators, you know, in addition to podcasts and videos and things like that. So we now have almost 120 collaborators. And so these are people out there that are currently teaching entrepreneurs in the making. High school teachers, college professors, nonprofits for profits, mentors, coaches. So what they do is I give them my content for free and they're free to teach as much or as little as they want. They can charge for it if they want. They pay me nothing. There are no contracts. It's the craziest open source, abundance based model. And so if anyone out there loves teaching entrepreneurs and wants to be a mentor to entrepreneurs, click on the become a collaborator button. But that's the vision is that we will have hundreds of collaborators all over the world. We're in like seven countries now and they're teaching this content. And we've impacted our a million entrepreneurs in the making and greatly increase the odds of success for these entrepreneurs starting businesses.

All right, so I would be amiss as well to mention my entrepreneurial teacher professor back here in San Diego, Cal State, San Marcos. I did go to school and that was the class that got me into entrepreneurship. Ben Cherry, Dr. Ben Cherry, he teaches entrepreneurship. I talked with him often still. I'm going to send this to him and he should definitely become, he's the dean now of business over there. So I'm like, here's A fun little.

Fact to prepare you. Okay, sure. So with college professors, and I've now talked to many of them, and we've got many that are collaborators. I scare the hell out of half, and half of them love me. Okay. And it simply comes down to what we talked about earlier. The ones that believe it's nature over nurture love this content. The ones that believe they can teach 7.5 billion people on the planet how to be an entrepreneur, they run from. For the hills from me. So I repeat, I hope I'm wrong, but yeah. So it's finally. We've got three universities that are literally teaching it in their curriculum now. And then many. It's a long bureaucratic process to get the content in the curriculum, but many in. In the works. But literally, as we sit here today, there are three universities with freshman students learning entrepreneur leap as their curriculum. It's.

It's.

So anyway, we. Two years in. Eight years to go. It's going to be around for 100 years, but. But I'm going to give it a good effort for the next eight.

Well, we'll send them this episode along with it. This will be definitely.

I'm going to get Ben on this. There's a lot of folks over there will help for sure. I appreciate that, Gino. I appreciate you, man. It's been great, and I can't wait to see where it goes. And maybe there's some other books in my. Yeah, because all these books you've written, they've read so simply. Some are narrative. You know, get a grip. And they're just fun to digest, and it's very practical. So appreciate you. What you're doing means a lot.

You're two great dudes. Joe and man, it's a pleasure to meet you both.

Have a good one. Thank you.

All right, all right, all right.

Doing a dance. I don't know what I'm dancing about, but that was a good time. I like Geno. He's a good guy.

How long ago did we actually get connected to Geno? Because I think this is the.

I think a couple months.

I think this episode with Geno maybe.

Three months ago, I think it was in the heat of the San Diego summer. I don't know where Geno lives, actually. Didn't ask. But, yeah, it was a while. He was during his sabbatical. That's where he brought up the sabbatical. Oh, that's a thing at the beginning. But yeah, good on him for taking sabbatical Radicals every August, every year. But yeah, that's yeah, it was a while. So we have waited to chat about Entrepreneurial Leap. I loved it. I love it when it's hardback, too.

Yeah, Hardback books are awesome.

It's just thud factor, baby. Even though it's not, like, super dense and it's very simple to read. So, yeah, Geno's a badass, man. I mean, we have his other book here. Not Hardback. This is Get a Grip. I don't know why I'm showing it upside down when it makes sense, but check out his books. I think he's up to six now, you know, but, yeah, Entrepreneurial Leap, that's. That's the puppy you got to get your hands on.

Yeah, that's definitely.

Yeah.

Like he said, he kind of did them in reverse order. This is the first one you're going to want to read, I believe Get a Grip would make the most sense for the second book that you read.

Yeah. Yeah. And then you have all. You have Traction. Traction.

Rocket Fuel.

Rocket Fuel and a few others that I think are a little bit different. Yeah. And I haven't he actually mentioned it. And one about how he kind of manages his energy. I think he called it Eos Life, potentially. I actually don't have the book title in front, but I'm going to dig in because I'm like, oh, that's interesting. He said it's like a different angle of how. And that came out, I think, kind of recently, but this is the big thing. Yeah. I think it's cool that he went reverse order because, I mean, he gained so much experience and knowledge in over 100,000 business owners that he's worked with. Okay. Now it's just distilled into, let's help a lot of people in the very beginning stages.

Yeah. No, it was fascinating and, you know, nicest fricking guy. Like, you know, when we get on podcast, let's be honest, we never really know what we're gonna expect if the first time we're meeting the person is when we jump on and hit record. Right. That happens fairly often. I would say probably 70% of the shows we record, this is our first time meeting them.

It's starting to. Yeah. Happen a little bit more. And that's all right. It's kind of fun. And everyone's like, oh, it's great to meet you finally.

Yeah. So you never really know what to expect. Right. When you jumping on with them. But, man, he's just a nice, really good dude.

I'd have a beer with him.

Exactly.

I'd hang out. I was actually thinking about that. I was like, I'd like to just chill with this dude. He's fun.

Well, what I thought would be kind of cool to chat with you about in this outro here is sort of our thoughts on his philosophies. Right? So like the thought of entrepreneurs being born and not made, right? The nurture versus nature.

50% agree and, and 50% disagree.

So yeah, so I think I've always been of the mindset that it was a nurture. Right. That anybody could learn to be an entrepreneur. But after you and I had a discussion before, we talked to him and then also from our discussion while talking with him, I think I've had a perspective shift on that because when he's describing an entrepreneur and like whether you have it or you don't, he's describing that entrepreneur that wants to run a big business with, and scale it huge, with a lot of employees and you know, the big long term, 10 year vision, like that's how he's kind of defining an entrepreneur. And I, you know, that probably is born. You know, not everybody's gonna be the Elon Musk who could manage a SpaceX, a Tesla, a SolarCity, Boring Company, all of those at the same time. Nobody, not everybody can be like Jack Dorsey with Twitter and Square. I think he might be medium also. I know one of the guys from Twitter created Medium. It might not be Jack Dorsey though. So.

Yeah, but I mean, Elon's a perfect example. You see him in the media a lot as like, oh my God, the smartest entrepreneur businessman ever. Like where he's going to space even. But it started with like PayPal and all these other things and but it's like he is not normal.

That type of person.

He's an alien.

That type of person, 100%, I believe is bored. I think that from like either a very young age or coming out of the womb, they have this fricking drive. And I believe that now because I don't have that Elon Musk drive. I don't like, I have the drive to build something that's big enough to create like a happy, fun lifestyle where I'm not stressed out all the time. That's where my drive is for making the money. But I don't have that drive to build this mega corporation and employ 100 people.

And you know, yeah, freedom for both of us. We both share that. And yeah, I would agree with, because I did have a feeling before that it is nurture or at least there's a lot of nurturing And I believe you can still hone some skills with nurture. But I would agree with Gino and his thesis of that it's nature. Because, yeah, I mean, just looking at his. Go check out those watching, listening, go do that assessment on his website. Literally, it takes a couple minutes and it is free if you're honest about it. And I think that's what you and I both did that. That assessment. And my result was 91 and yours was 77%. And technically, anything above a 90% is that entrepreneurial scale thing. But if you're looking at the range, like you talked about, the entrepreneurial range. Joe cheated, though.

He checked his answers against a cheat sheet.

I did, yes. I'm like, what's gonna give me the best answers here? So I'm in the score.

Joe cheated to find out if he's an entrepreneur or not.

That's how I got here, man. Cheat along the way, that's one way. So that's the other. I guess that's the other part of an entrepreneur. You can just cheat your way in. I don't recommend. That's how I graduated college. That is true. That was called outsourcing, actually. That was clever. That was very. Limitations, entrepreneur.

I can't get in trouble for that now. I can't take my degree away.

I'm like, you got the damn paper.

You know what, to be honest, if they did take the degree away, what would happen?

Who cares? But I would agree now that I think from the surface level, I would disagree. But actually going through assessments and actually going into business, you know, slugging it along for 10 plus years, like you said, over 10 years, you're gonna basically see it all, or see a lot of it. And you're gonna have these nightmares. You're gonna have the heavens, like the hell, the heaven. You're gonna see it all. And I think if you figure out if you are actually suited to scale, which neither of us are, even though I'm on the 91%, I don't want to do that stuff. That just seems like it's like, here's the thing, we talked about it. I think my brain sees how I could do that. Doesn't mean I want to do that. And I think that is where our balance has actually worked really well. Because you're at the 77% level doesn't mean you're not an entrepreneur.

I'm always the guy in conversations going, that's a really cool idea, but I don't want to.

Exactly. And I mean, you need that. I mean, it's love it or hate it, you scored more on the integrator thing side of things, but you are 100% a visionary as well. You have a hybrid going on. But I think that's why you've been a good balance for my brain. Because I think my brain is like enough on that visionary scale where it sees the potential to do a lot of that stuff. Doesn't mean we should do it though. Or I shouldn't even pursue it because I'll probably never stop working because I'll be like, ah, that looks fun. I could do that. I know the right people to assemble. Then you're just like, don't wanna do it? And I'm like, and then it'll be a little slug match a little bit.

And then you always come back the next day and you're like, I thought about it, you're right, I don't wanna do it.

Yeah. Because I'll look at it, I'll talk to my wife, talk to Heather, I'll talk to other people. And they're like, yeah, it's a little smarter if you just like say no and just like work less. Like. Okay, good point.

Yeah, yeah. So no, I'm no longer butthurt about not being a vision or not being considered a visionary or even falling below that entrepreneurial skill. I think where I land is somewhere in that side. Hustler, lifestyle business, solo slash duo, preneur. Right? Like I fall like on that spectrum of an entrepreneur. Right? You've got the self employed on the left end of the spectrum all the way up to like Elon Musk on the right end of the spectrum. Right. I'm definitely close to the left end of the spectrum where I enjoy the lifestyle benefits of running a business.

All right, so you got to give me some credit, Matt. What has my visionary done for your life? Come on, I'm giving you all this credit now, Evan, My ego's hurt right now. Come on, Matt, help me out here. Because you definitely have brought me into like, hey, the lifestyle thing first. And I 100% agree, like that's where I want to be.

Yeah, yeah, but you need a little ego stroking here.

I do.

Come on, man. I mean, you do obviously too. Help me get over it. Come on.

So where I think the biggest visionary stuff from you has come from me has been the insight to connect with as many people as possible. Because that is where our flow of opportunities comes. That's where our flow of intel comes for other projects. That's where our, how we even get guests on the show, that's how we get. Get, you know, sponsors on. The show's getting bigger. Is that connectorness right? Like that is that is. I think when we really look at our business and what the two of us each bring to the table, I think I bring the, like, legitimately the integrator stuff. Right. I know the tech, I know the tools. I know. All right, cool. We need to get this built. All right. I'm gonna go build it. Give me a couple hours and it'll be online. Right. Like, I know how to do shit, and I get the shit built.

When you're motivated. When I'm motivated by the right things, yeah.

If it's matching my core values, if I'm staying to the core, it's true.

Yeah. Absolutely true.

I love building the stuff if it's within the core of what is really lighting me up right now.

Right.

What I think you bring to the table is you got that people element. You've got that. If it was up to me, you know how I am, I would be in my office at home, like, with my door shut by myself, like, watching YouTube videos, reading articles, and making investment trades all day long.

Very smelly room. That would be probably.

Yeah, it's true, because I let my dog and my dog farts a lot. She's really old.

It's not her, but she's pretty smell.

I blame it on her.

That's where the sound effects come in.

I would be that solopreneur, like, lone wolf trying to do everything myself. And you and I coming together, you're like, no, but there's so many other people that we could bring into the fold and make this thing even easier on us.

All right? You sufficiently stroked my ego, but it.

Really is like, I try to always do everything on my own. I try to go, all right, who's carrying the boats? I'm carrying the boats. Right?

Who's carrying the boats?

Who's carrying the boats? I'm taking the boats. Right.

Goggins reference.

I try to just go, okay, I'll just do it all. I'll just try to take care of it all. And I know how to do it. And I just try to, like, make everything happen myself. Where you have figured out how to leverage other people. Like, hey, I know you get to maybe save a little bit of money by doing everything yourself, but this person's still pretty cheap, and they can do it for us, and they're probably better at it than you do.

A lot more of that investment trading research stuff that you really like. Love.

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Okay, so put her here, partner. We both bring some value to the table. I mean, I might be like 95. And you're fine.

I mean, hey, it's all good. It seems to be working out. If you want to do the bulk of the work, go for it, my friend.

I don't. I don't.

I didn't think so.

I like doing the bulk of the research, though. That's fun for me.

That's a good stuff. Yeah. Wait, you're an integrator, but you don't like to work?

I don't know. Maybe my research is my integration.

You've seen what my research looks like. It's like. Like I'll send you a 20 page doc of literally what I watched and studied yesterday.

That is true. His notes are bomb. All right, so let's wrap this puppy up. E-Leap.com is the website you want to go to and you want to grab this puppy over on that website and go get all the cool, free resources over there, because there are plenty. And I didn't go through all the different apps for each section, but I.

Love to check those out because we only took one of the assessments. We should go take the rest and just see what pops up.

It'll probably help us even with our newer direction here. So, yeah, e-leap.com will get you there. Thank you, Gino. You da bombed as well. And shout out to our sponsor, Matt.

Yeah. Easy Webinar. We got Easy Webinar. And if you need to integrate a webinar into your business.

I like what you did there.

Yeah.

What do we do?

If you have a vision for a webinar and you need to integrate the webinar, go to easywebinar.com hustle because they got the best webinar platform. Live webinars, automated hybrid build the landing pages, do all the tracking. It all just. It's. It just happens, right? Like, you just use Easy webinar and they take care of all the webinar.

Tech stuff for you. They take care of it. I'm over here dancing like Joe's. Flowing like Blippi Toddler days, bro.

Alana told me that they got rid of hot Blippi.

What's that?

Apparently there was a Blippi and then they replaced them anyway. Go to easywebinar.com hustle to get a discount on Easy Webinar for being a Hustle and Flowchart listener. So Blippi.

Apparently they replaced them.

I don't believe they had some stand in blippies.

Maybe that's what they're saying.

Hot blippi. All right, well, you know what? I'm gonna be googling right after this. Cool. GogetEasyWebinar.com hustle. It's a fat discount, I guarantee Casey, who runs Easy webinar. He's got kids, man. They know what blippi is. He's all about blippi for sure. So let's be honest, he's like, I like this ad. So go check it out. It's amazing and you want to get get it because it's cheap for you.

And last little shout outs. Make sure you subscribe to the YouTube channel over at HustleandFlowchart TV starting Mondays. In a couple of weeks, we're actually gonna be going live every Monday over on Lads City YouTube channel. So we'll make sure that's linked up on our YouTube and in the show notes and everywhere. But we're gonna be going live every Monday at 11am Pacific, I believe.

I didn't know. That sounds right.

On the Ladd City YouTube channel. And that show is going to be all about the sort of crypto defi. Nft all that sort of rabbit holes that we're going down and interviews around those topics. Those will be live every Monday, but the audio of them is going to be live every Tuesday on the Hustle and Flowchart podcast.

That's right. Cool. Join us there. You'll love it. Even if you don't feel like you're in that world, we're going to take you there with us.

We'll tell you why you should be paying attention to that world. Even if you haven't been paying attention to that world. Stick with it'll be worth it. It'll make you a lot of money over time, I promise.

If you love this episode, share it. I wanna see more sharing. I wanna hear you on YouTube talking about what's your big takeaways. So if you're watching this, go right down below right after you hit subscribe and smash that bell or whatever the heck you gotta do.

Yeah, do the stuff that the other YouTubers tell you to do. Just do it on our channel.

You've heard it enough. Just exercise your actions towards this cause you know you love us more. That's about it. And go spread the word. Go tell someone about this. Go. Leave us a rating review. Subscribe elsewhere on the podcast. Love you.

Bye bye. Sa.

Shift.