How Diversity Can Help With Business Growth with Chris Martinez

The overwhelming majority of entrepreneurs, especially in digital marketing, are good, nice, kind people that just don't know some of the things that they might be doing inadvertently, that is keeping some people out of the party. Now, as a white male who is like the poster child for like being shit on around in the United States, let's be, let's be clear. Why should you care? You know, like, if you have all these advantages and you know, let's just say all of them are true, why would you give a.

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Yeah, yeah, you know, like it was one of those things where like I was super happy after we recorded the episode. And honestly, like, I've done lots and lots of interviews. I've never reached out to anybody like this. And I was like, you know what, there's one thing That I feel like we really need to talk about just for, like, five minutes, which will, I think, help people to understand kind of like why we're talking about this and just get a better sense of the issue that we have at hand. And so specifically, it's just like, what is racism? You know, because we're going to be talking about that in the actual interview for nearly an hour, I think. But we never actually defined what it is. And I think part of the problem is that people have misconceptions about what it is or what constitutes racism. And so I literally just pulled the definition of racism because I think that it's really, really helpful to hear this first. So it says racism is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character ability, and that a particular race is superior to others. So for me, the key points there is that you believe that because of somebody's skin color, that there is something inherent about them. Normally it's around their ability or, like, their intelligence, something like that, Right. So what I would like to do, and hopefully this doesn't offend too many people, is like, let's. Let's just talk about some of these stereotypes that people have. And of course, like, I like to joke around, so I'm going to try and throw in some humor around this again without being canceled. Hopefully I'm not being canceled.

We'll see. We went there. I mean, so.

So if you said, you know, like, all Asian kids are good at math, like, me being half Asian, this is something that I've heard my entire life. Like, is that racist? You know, like, that's kind of like a tricky one, right? So, like, if you believe that all Asian kids are good at math because of their genetics or because of. That's just like every single person and all of Asia, every Asian across the United or across the world in, is inherently good at math, I would say that's probably racist, right? But if you look at statistics, because we talk about that quite a bit and you look at, let's just say, college entrance exams, right? Like, you know, you have a lot of Asian. Asian Americans that are getting. Getting to some of the best colleges in the. In the world, in the United States. And a lot of that is because they have really good test scores. And a lot of that goes back to the culture and the, the emphasis that Asian. That Asian parents put on doing well in school. And also if their parents happen to be engineers, which a lot of people who immigrated to the United States, that was something that they came over for. They were engineers. And we needed engineers in the US So then you have parents that also can teach you more about that. Right. So it just really depends on how you, you know, you approach that question. Another one is, and this is one that's a little bit more controversial is you look at the incarceration rates of African Americans in the United States, and it's very well documented. African Americans are the highest incarcerated ethnic group or racial group in the United States. And so if somebody looks at that and they say, well, that's because all black people are bad. Like, they're inherently bad, I think we could all agree that that is racist. And for those that wouldn't say that that's racist, then guess what? You are racist. You are a racist person. It's true that African Americans are incarcerated at higher rates than any other ethnic group or racial group. Right. But to say that all black people are inherently bad and that's why they're in prison is a racist statement, I would argue. Right.

Yeah.

And so, like, it's just. It's the way that you look at those, or it's the way that you. If somebody says something like that and just paints a very broad brush across everybody, giving them, you know, saying that a blanket statement saying that this group is inherently better.

Yeah.

And this group is inherently worse, then that is pretty much the definition of racism.

That's fair. And I want to frame this as well as. Well, a couple things. A bunch of stuff comes to mind. But we did record an episode on this. We don't need a second one yet. But at the same time, this is in the framing of us, most of us as business owners who are watching and listening entrepreneurs. Or maybe we're in a business intrapreneur, even. Maybe you're a leader. However, this. Or maybe you're just not. And that's okay, too. So that's where the majority of our conversation went to. But I love this framing here, because what you.

Yeah.

Blanket statements in general. I never really trust anybody. Like, when they. When they're attaching a blanket statement statement to anything. Like, I mean, it's just like, how do you do that? That's. We're human. We're very dynamic. We have upbringings that are different than others. I mean, like, I know. Well, I don't know, but from what I understand, the Asian community, like, they put a lot of emphasis on early education, math being. Being a big component. Awesome. Well, guess what? That's conditioning. You know, it's like they're conditioned. A lot of them are at a younger age than maybe other ethnic groups, you know, but I don't know. And everyone is conditioned differently, you know, has a different upbringing. So. Yeah. So to that point, Chris, I guess before we kick off to the episode, any final words on this point? To put it in this container of.

How we can empower a couple things is just keep in mind that this is a very. It's not a black and white subject. There's still a lot of gray in this conversation. I talk about this kind of like the why behind it in the interview itself. But one of the big things, just to give you really quick summary, is like, something that I believe is that one of the things that makes the United States the best country on earth, especially to run a business. And I've traveled, you know, a little bit, and I've. I'm one of the only ones who've. Who's also owned a business in another country. I've owned a business in Mexico.

Yeah.

So I love my country, you know, and I. I aspire that we in the United States have the best and brightest. Right. I want the best and the brightest. I want everybody to be measured by the same measuring stick. And so for my own company, I don't care where people are from. I don't care what their skin color looks like. I recognize that even I have biases, like, we all have biases. But we need to raise the level of consciousness so that when, as business owners, when we're evaluating a team member, for example, right. We're looking at what they can do and not letting our biases get in the way of that evaluation.

Dang. Bingo.

Yeah. And that's what I want, you know, I just want a level playing field where everybody has the same opportunity and everybody is judged by the same measuring stick. And I think that's how you build the best team. That's going to help you elevate your business.

I love it.

That's pretty much it.

And honestly, you know, we're human, so we're not perfect. And I don't think this conversation will solve us as being human and imperfect, and that's okay. But at least awareness, I think, is a great first step in how we all do have the ability to control what we can control, you know, and that's why even why I have this podcast in the first place. I know there's this network effect, a ripple that happens, and I get to curate people like yourself who have a mission, have a voice that I feel like is very important, and I want to put that out there. So it's what I can control. You're doing what you can control, Chris. So that's all I ask of everyone watching, listening is, you know, figure out what you can control and, and do your best. So.

And I don't disagree with. Me too. I am not opposed to that free country.

Go find him. He's. He's fun to chat with. And yeah. Yeah. Ain't scared either, which I love, man. So thank you, Chris. Now.

Awesome.

Let's watch Mr. Martinez. Chris, we're back. It's been a while, man, since I've had you on here.

Yeah, it's been years. Probably 20, 18. 2019 since I first came on the show.

Yeah. And we're just saying it's like you live in town now, but even before that, you weren't that far away in TJ minutes away.

I was coming, coming to San Diego four or five times a week.

Yeah. In four years or something. Three. Four years it's been for us. So let's, let's, let's change that, man. This is the first start.

I'm excited for the show, man, because it's funny. Like, when I go on podcasts or if I have guests, sometimes I say, okay, so we're going to talk about race, religion and politics. Right. Jokingly. And today we're actually going to talk about race and probably not politics, but maybe a little bit about.

It's election year, so why not? It's relevant.

It's one of those topics that's so taboo and everybody's terrified to talk about it, but I wanted to get it out there and just provide a different perspective for everybody.

Well, and that's exactly why you're here. And obviously we're buddies and we've collaborated on things. You've run the dude agency. That's what you, you're big in the agency world. You have a conference coming up in San Diego in August. I'm just gonna shout it out now. So you do all the fun stuff. Agency Freedom Live. Right? So, yep. Peep at all that stuff. So that's, that's. You, like, you've had agencies for as long as I've known you. What, like, well over 10 years now.

Yeah, I've had our, our businesses. 12 years old now.

There you go. So it's cool. Cool agency model. We'll get into that in a little bit. But that's, that's, it's, it's very relevant. And also, you know, that's just knowing that you've been very successful for. Yeah, 12 years in that business. I Think you've done some stuff before that as well.

But either way, like, you came out to me and you're like, hey, there's a topic I really want to talk about. I haven't been able to. Yeah, it's, it's kind of this, this thing that's taboo statement or this thing that everybody cringes or doesn't know how to approach it. So I said, fuck it, let's do it. And like, let's talk about it. So I guess tell everyone, tell me your perspective of like, what's the big idea here, huh? What are we, what are we doing?

Yeah. So ultimately what we want to talk about today is racism in digital marketing specifically. And it's different than what you normally think, you know, like, it's not like there's being racial slurs being hurled at me or other people that I know. Although that stuff does happen mainly in the comments or in emails and stuff, stuff like that. I've definitely been called racial slurs before. It's not as overt. But what I really want to talk about today is just kind of like the, the data behind it. And like my background, I went to school for sociology. I have a degree in sociology. I'm one of the few people that actually paid attention in class. I did go to UC Santa Barbara where they have a really, really good sociology department. And I just wanted to talk about the things that I'm seeing specifically in our industry, but it also applies to the, to capitalism in general and our country and just kind of shed some light on this. And ideally, or ultimately I want to tie this back to what does this mean to us as entrepreneurs? Because I think one of the things that I bring to the table is that I'm also an entrepreneur. I'm a minority entrepreneur. I won an award by the. I won a Stevie Award for Minority Owned Business of the year in 2021. So I think I'm a decent entrepreneur, but I just have some different perspectives based on my background. You know, my mother is an immigrant from Taiwan. My grandfather was an immigrant from Mexico. And then, you know, so the fact that I have that kind of person of color background, also my training as a sociologist, I think I bring some unique things, the table. So that's kind of what I wanted to talk to you about. And you've been brave enough to have me on the show and to talk about some very sensitive topics. I will say, just as kind of like a warning, there's probably some things that I'm going to say that are going to Be triggering for some people. Keep in mind, like, I am not the sole spokesperson for.

Racism or people of color in entrepreneurship. Likewise, you are not the sole spokesperson for all white people in the United States. We're two guys having a conversation. So if you disagree with me, that's totally okay. You're not going to hurt my feelings. You know, if you're in the comments, please try and be so civil.

Honestly, you are. There's no one else that I know personally that fits the mold perfectly to talk about it, man. Like, you've done the work for a long time. You've got recognition. What? You've had hundreds of employees. I don't know how many hundreds and hundreds of employees.

Oh, I'm also one of the only people who's lived in a foreign country. I live, you know, born and raised in Los Angeles, then moved to San Diego, then lived for five years in Mexico before coming back to the United States. So I kind of have that perspective as well.

You've done the work. I've been there at the facility, the big place. You have. You have our old place.

Our old place.

Yeah. I've been a couple of them. Two of them. I remember. So, I mean, like. And the model in itself is awesome. And I'm sure you've learned so much even about that. Like, out outsourcing. I don't know what the best word but like, to Mexico for design, dev, agency work. But point is, you. You got the background, you've done the work, you've done your time, and you also studied this stuff, so. Shoot. I mean, I think this is the perfect time to have an open conversation. I want to hear from you more than anything because that's. That's exactly why I brought you in. And I think that's why you.

Well, yeah, let's. Let's just start there, actually. What sparked with you that said, okay, I gotta have Chris on the show because you and I, just to preface this, like, I'm constantly sending you texts or kind of like giving you and calling you out on stuff that I see that you're doing completely inadvertently. But I'm trying to, like, show you a different perspective.

Yeah.

As to how this might be perceived or how, you know, like, somebody like myself is viewing it. So what sparked it with you that made you want to have me on the show?

Honestly, it's that. It's the fact that you are. You're someone who. Well, for one, I trust you. So I know you're not just talking crap, even though a lot of it is joking. You know, but it's layered in realism. Like, and I feel like that's probably most jokes, but most people don't have the cojones to throw it out there and actually say, like, hey, have you thought about this side of things or this perspective or approaching, you know, like, having specific guests on the podcast or topics we talk about? Or have you ever thought about the privilege that I have as a white guy? Man and white. You know, and growing up in San Diego too, I know that's also given me an advantage. But it's like. And you said that. And you don't. You don't do this in like, hey, asshole. You know, like, have you ever realized. But it's, It's. You have great intentions, and I know that you're not just saying it to stir stuff up. Um, and it got me thinking, like, there's a whole text dialogue that you and I had. Yeah. And I remember reviewing that, and it was great. And I won't read that stuff. We're basically prefacing it all right here. Like, we're. We're giving you the Cliff Notes. And then you gave me some materials to even go deeper because I, I was curious and I genuinely am. And that's where I. I knew more would come out and dialogue in this way.

Yeah.

So I've done some research prior to. But yeah, that's. That's why, man. Because I know I could do better and I know that the reason I even have this show and I've said this, it's not bs so if anybody thinks it's BS is I'm more impact focused these days. I'm realizing for a long time it was tactical. It was like, hey, let's do this. Marketing strategy to increase all that stuff's great. Conversion's great. Yeah, it's. We need that for business. But at the same time, it's like, what's the bigger impact that I can provide here? I want to cherry pick the right people on this show because I know it's up to me to do that. Because you're now going to influence. And that's gonna. It's like a network effect. Everybody's going to hear it in some way and feel it. So.

So hopefully I can educate or maybe help somebody see things from a different light through our conversation today. You know, like, as a minority entrepreneur in digital marketing specifically, it is always been apparent to me that I'm the only person that looks like me in the room. Right. And so even when we go to, like, conferences, traffic and conversion summit, you know, which you've exhibited at, I've exhibited at. You've spoken at, I've spoken at. I constantly look at the speaker list, and I don't think I'm unique in this sense. And I see all the faces that are speaking, especially the headliners. Right. And none of them look like me. And I. And I. I want to know, why is this happening? I don't think. And I think Sonia, who came on earlier, also mentioned this. I don't think anything. Anybody's doing something malicious, although I do know that there are people out there who are very malicious.

Sure.

I have encountered those people, and I can name them to you. You know who they are, too, but maybe have not seen it directly the way that I have. There are a few people that are out there that are actively trying to keep some people out, but the overwhelming majority of entrepreneurs, especially in digital marketing, are good, nice, kind people that just don't know some of the things that they might be doing inadvertently. That is.

Keeping some people out of the party.

Yeah.

Now, as a white male who is like the poster child for, like, being shit on right now in the United States, let's be. Let's be clear that you guys are not having a good.

A good decade, good run.

I think the biggest question is, why should you care? You know, like, if you have all these advantages and, you know, let's just say all of them are true, why would you give a shit?

Right. And that's a really good question. And something, you know, it's like you can have all the perspective in the world, but change is tough for most people. People don't like change. They're resistant to change unless you are this, like. I feel like it's an elevated level of consciousness, and I think we mentioned it. This has actually been coming up on more calls is like, there's this, like, now intuition that people are starting to feel that. And I think it's because there have been things in the media, there have been things maybe addressed specifically to people.

I would push back a little bit on that.

Yeah.

In the sense that the demographics of the United States have shifted tremendously.

And you can trace a lot of it back to World War II, with African Americans being allowed to fight in World War II and fight the Nazis and then coming home and being like, wait a second, I fought for my country. Why don't I have these rights? Twenty years later, we have the civil rights movement, as well as an Asian immigration act that gets passed, which allows a lot more diversity to come into the United States. And so now we're 50 years past 1965. Right. One of the. From the 60s, like one of the most. 60 years past that. Past one of the most tumultuous times in the United States history. And so getting back to my original point, why would I care if I'm a white male who everybody says has all the advantages? It's because from a business perspective, from a capitalistic perspective, and I'm very much a capitalist, if you're putting your company in a much better position to market to a different audience, if you embrace these concepts or understand.

How it's a little bit different of an experience for somebody who's a person of color.

Yeah.

So let me just ask you a question. What percentage of the United States do you think are minorities?

I think it's over. Well over 50%. I mean, I think it's.

You think 50% of the minority.

I guess that within the definition changes technically. Right.

So let's just say non white.

Yeah. Non.

What percentage of the United States are non white?

Yeah. And this is where I know. I still want to say over 50%. I might be crazy.

Very interesting.

I'll just say that this.

Okay, so there have been so many studies on this where surveys are done and they analyze what white people say are. What's the percentage of people that are minorities in the United States?

Right.

They almost always say double the actual number.

Wow. Really?

Today? Today in. Well, as of. I would say the statistics I just pulled is. Right. It's like 20. 20, 2019.

You're seeing anywhere from 25 to 30%.

Okay.

Is non white. Is minorities. So you double the amount of that. So why. Why is that? Why. Why do white people typically think that there's twice as many minorities than there actually are in the United States?

And that's where my brain went. Why is that a pattern now? Because my brain always.

Are you a bad person for thinking that? Absolutely not. I think we're a bad person for thinking that.

Yeah. And I think. Yeah. It's interesting because if there's 50% or there's not, at least as far as that stat that you just said, you know, 20 to 30%, you would think, okay, so what does that mean? Like, what can I do? Knowing, you know, armed with that knowledge.

Do you have to do anything about it?

You don't have to, but it's like in my brain, it's like, what do I do with that information? You know, I don't want you to feel guilt.

I don't want you to feel guilty. About that, first of all, like, this is something that I don't want you because Joe, you are a good guy. You know, if anything, you were an advocate to all of us darkies out there.

But that's, that's not where I'm getting at though. Like, so what I was getting at more is like in my brain. And I'm, I'm also trying to think for the person listening, watching is like, okay, there's that stat. What do I do with that stat? Like what's the actual thing I can take from that?

So, so this is the first thing that I want to start with is that as we're analyzing if there's racism in the country, the first thing that we're going to do is we're going to take a scientific approach. And this is essentially what sociology does, is we look at the culture or the society and we try and use statistics to figure out is there actually a problem. I was very fortunate that in my studies in the university I university because I talked to all these people from outside the US in college, I took a really, a great statistics course. This guy was a, he was literally a genius. He got his PhD from Harvard in statistics at like 22 or 23 years old. He was a 25 year old professor at UC Santa Barbara. It was amazing. And what he, he said something that stuck with me. He said statistics. I love statistics. Statistics. Because statistics tells us the truth. Right. So let me just take a quick tangent. I'm going to tell you something that we've all heard before, or I think most of us have heard before, is that 95% of accidents, car accidents, happen within a 12 mile radius of your house. You've heard that before?

Yep.

What does that mean?

That means that we're flying blind.

That's what people think the statistic means. But we can't actually prove that that might be true.

True.

But here's the caveat, is that 95% of the driving that you do is within a 12 mile radius of your house.

That as well. Yeah. I guess quantity is higher.

And so can you make that, can you actually say based on those statistics that the first statistic that I give you, can you actually concretely say that we're not, not paying attention?

No. Because it totally depends on. Yeah. Where you're at. Yep.

So the fact that you say that I think that there's 50% of the United States, that there's are my. Are minorities when it's actually 25, does that mean that you're racist? Absolutely not. Right. So let's just look at the. How we use statistics from a business perspective to identify are there inequalities that might impact us as entrepreneurs? Right. So, like, I want to look at something like the. Actually, there's a conference coming up in San Diego. It's the EOS conference. I'm sure you're familiar with EOS entrepreneur.

Yeah. Gino Wickman.

Gino Wickman, right. I just happened to look at his website before we went on this call, looking at the speakers, because that's something that I. That I, you know, that I look at from time to time. I don't know if you can pull it up or maybe we can have it in the notes.

Yeah.

But if you look at the speaker lineup, it is overwhelmingly white. Now, do I think that people at Eos, or do I think that Gino Wickman are racist? Absolutely not.

What I would like to see, and this is true of anything from. From Congress, which is still overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly male, to the Senate, to, you know, like, to representation in the community, to events like this. What I, as a sociologist, maybe an amateur sociologist would like to see is maybe not even 25%. If 25% of the United States are minorities. You know, like, if we could get to 25%, that would be amazing. But can we get to 15? You know, like, can we get to 20? Can we get to 10? Right. Like, if you look at all the speakers that they have at that event, the I have to do account, but I'm willing to bet that it's over 90% white that are speaking at that event.

Now, the second thing that we want to look at is the audience. So are their audience also respected, reflective of the speakers? If it's not, then we need to look deeper and identify where's the disconnect, you know, and this is one of the challenges that I had with Traffic and Conversion Summit back when I spoke. Actually, I brought this up to the gal who asked me to speak, and she was a big advocate. She's like, I do recognize that the audience that's speaking is not, or the people that are speaking are not reflective of the audience. Traffic and conversions audience has changed dramatically over the past 10 years. It's a very diverse audience. They have people coming in from all over the world, different nationalities, different languages, right?

Yep.

So this gal that was working at trafficking conversion said, you know what? I've noticed this, too. I am very much an advocate of this and wanting to instigate some change, because I also recognize that our clients look different than they did Right. And I feel like we should have more representation on the stages. Unfortunately, she left trafficking conversion for reasons that we won't talk about.

But, you know, now it's kind of going back to the way that it was prior to her being there. And so from a capitalistic standpoint.

Could you make the argument, Joe, that if our audience is very representative of the overall population, that we should also look to feature people that are on the stages that are reflective a lot of that audience as a marketer, you know, that people respond to people that they know, like, and trust.

Correct?

Right.

100%. Yeah. And that's where going that. That's like you referenced Sonia earlier. That was her big thing is like, hey, you know, it's not saying everyone's guilty for this, but, like, is there a place for me? I would imagine if I'm putting my. My, myself in someone else's shoes, let's say from another country, they're flying into a conference or they want to. It's like, do I feel. Do I feel seen? You know, and I. And I think it's. Do I feel safe as well? Safety is that whole, like, human thing innately, we all want anyway, but being seen, like. Yeah, like seen. And then when it goes to marketing, it's the know, like. And trust kind of. Yeah, all those things kind of go. From that point on, it feels like that's my perception.

Absolutely.

Hey, I just want to pause this episode really fast and shout out a podcast that's Also on the HubSpot podcast network, the audio destination for business professionals. This one's a podcast that's hosted by someone I've followed for years. The name is Donald Miller is the whole story, brand, book, and all the different stuff online. He hosts the podcast called Business Made Simple. The premise is to basically take the mystery out of growing your business. And he recently had on. One of the other guys I follow is Alex Hermosi. And right at the beginning of the year, they're talking about facing uncertainty in your business. And Alex and Donald, they talk about different ways, four different ways to basically shore up your business, to ride the uncertain times that inherently are the ones that we're living in in 2024. So make sure to go check that out. Go listen to Business Made simple, that episode with Alex Hormozi, but also the other ones, wherever you get your podcasts. Are you tired of the hassle of building online sales funnels? You know, I get it. And you started your business for freedom and not to be chained to your laptop all day. Long. And thankfully, there is an all in one platform that makes this process super easy so you can start attracting customers online. It's a tool called Kartra and it has every tool you need to grow. So every Kartra account comes stocked with a bunch of done for you campaigns that are designed, connected and written for you. And all you got to do is customize them to your liking and you can launch a fully built sales funnel in minutes. So make marketing easy on yourself. Visit www.hustleandflowchart.com Kartra and snag a free 30 day trial of Kartra. And again, that's hustleandflowchart.com K A R.

T R A actually, I want to address a big kind of like hot topic that and entrepreneurs don't really talk about. And this is something that's a little bit alarming to me in the United States. Now, I have dealt with this my entire life. I've been told that I'm less American because I'm not white.

Less American.

Wow. That I'm not as American as other people. I've been told, go back to your country. My family's been here for 100 years. My uncle fought in World War II. Right. So I don't know if this is shocking to you, but any minority, especially anybody from Latin America, from Latin American descent or Asian American descent, or I would say even Middle Eastern descent, has heard this before.

Oh, yeah. It's not shocking. It's just every time I hear it. And then with the context of, hey, do you actually know what my family's done? You know, and the roots that are.

Here, the way that I look? And that's what that. I mean, usually these are very ignorant.

Stupid people, of course.

But it still exists. I'm sure. You know, people that are still racist. Oh, yeah, I know people that are racist. I know somebody who's a police officer from high school who's racist. He shot a black guy in the back. And I heard, I was at an event, a party, and he was bragging about how he shot this N word in the back.

Geez.

Wow.

Okay.

This is not that long ago, guys. So these things exist. We don't really talk about it openly. Right.

The thing that really alarms me that's happening in the United States right now is people are a little bit more vocal in saying that they think that the United States is a white Christian nation. Right. Have you heard that before? Yeah, I don't know. I can't remember if you live in east county or if you grew up in East County.

I'm more in East County. Yeah.

So it's notorious for being a little.

Bit more right wing.

Definitely.

To be fair, their stats on every metro area is typically a lot more, you know, it's progressive blue, let's call it. And then the further you get away from the cities, it goes more red or conservative.

Yeah. In California, it's like the further, the further away from the coast you get.

Yeah, yeah.

The more Republican and whatever.

Unless you're in Orange county or something.

But Orange county is, is the. Yeah, it's the outlier.

But you're right. Yeah. In East San Diego, it, it gets, It's. Yeah, it goes that way.

But to, to bring my. Go back to my, My point is that, you know, like, these are the things that concern me as a minority entrepreneur, because am I being judged by, by people as not being American? Right. And how, how could that impact my business?

And if that's the case, like, if you're saying that I'm not as American as the other person, guess what? I'm not fucking paying taxes because I pay a shitload of fucking taxes and I employ a lot of people. So if you're not going to give me the same credibility as other Americans, like, guess what? You ain't getting my money. Yeah, you Uncle Sam. No, but seriously, like.

So let's look at the, let's go back to the speaking on the stages. Yeah, Right. So like our, if there is not representation on those stages and if there is representation of those groups in the audience, we, we have to go a level deeper and ask the question, why, why are these people not getting the opportunities? Now, I was talking to Vince Reed one time and he's like, well, nobody's promoting other people in this space. And I, I agree with him to an extent that he says black folks don't stand up for black folks that want to speak on these big stages. And so they're not getting the, the ability to speak to an extent. I, I agree.

There is. You. There's usually committees that determine who gets to speak on the stages.

Right.

And a lot of the times they look at like, things like social media following. Right. And so if you have a big social media following, then you get asked to speak, which is why we see a lot of the same people of color that are speaking over and over and over and over, because those are the only people that have social media followings. So, okay, so why aren't other minority entrepreneurs getting the social media followings? This is where we need to do some more research and actually get concrete data. Because if people are doing the exact same things and putting the exact same work, you should see relatively similar growth in social media following.

Correct.

Without. Before doing this experiment, I would argue that that's where things where you start to see the real discrepancies and where people's biases start to come into play. Now, I can tell you from my own experiences as somebody who's written three books, I've won two Stevie Awards. I've made millions and millions of dollars. I did not have money from mommy and Daddy. I had to build this shit on my own. I even moved to a different country to try and build my business.

It's still very frustrating when I have to prove my intelligence to an audience. Right. And I have to go above and beyond. This is something you'll hear from a lot of my minority entrepreneurs. And I hope this doesn't come off as sounding whiny. I'm just telling you how it is. You'll hear that we have to work twice as hard to get half as far. Right now I need data to back this up. I'm busy running my fucking business, so I don't have time to do this sociological study. But anecdotally, what I do see is, yes, this is true. You know, like, I've done 159 episodes on my podcast. I've done a lot of the things. And yet when it comes to me presenting even my products or like, what it is that we do, like, I know things that nobody else knows in this industry because I've been there a long time.

You'Ll see that often the audience, and even a minority audience sometimes will gravitate towards the white guy. Right? No matter what is being said, no matter the credibility of that minority entrepreneur. And it's not just me, it's other people, too. You'll see that the. The audiences typically will go in a different direction. And I want to know why. Why is that happening? I would hypothesize that there are internal biases that.

Like that people that look a certain way, people that look like you.

Right.

Are automatically more credible. Right. So these are the things that are relevant to me. And it goes kind of back to that. What I was saying earlier is, do the majority of Americans believe that the United States is a white Christian nation? And is that some of the root of the biases? Even though our country is becoming more. More diverse.

We still don't have a lot of diversity across the general population as well. So this is kind of like Getting into that institutional racism, systemic racism conversation.

Right. And there's obviously history, there's conditioning, that's where the biases likely come from. And I think of this article that you sent or a study that you sent, it was about the trust gap, I believe it's called, and it's interesting and maybe you can describe it a little bit in more depth, but maybe it's related in this regard because it feels like there's this, this gap in trust and it's baked in probably these other. A whole bunch of layers.

So that article that I sent you is a brilliant article by a sociologist from Harvard University. And she talks about how the, the housing crisis for African African Americans since post Civil War, how that impacted their ability to build wealth long term and also their ability to create communities and build generational wealth through entrepreneurship. So just to kind of very quickly summarize this article.

All throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, there were laws that were placed that restricted where African Americans could live. I don't know if you knew this or not prior to that.

I've heard of it.

Okay. I think one of them was called. There was like a, like when we started moving out of the cities and into suburbs, specific suburbs would say no blacks allowed. Right. And I think one of them was called Levittown. I'm not sure.

It'S not talked about. But this happened, this actually happened in our, in the United States. And so one of the things that happened is because African Americans were not allowed to live in certain places, they were constantly moving around and it was harder for them to form communities. They use an example of Italian Americans. So Italian Americans didn't have to face this sort of housing discrimination. And so they were able to form strong bonds and trust within their communities. Now a lot of these people couldn't go to a traditional bank to get financing to start a business or buy a house. And so within these communities they would have lenders. And after you knew, got to know people in the community, they'd be like, oh Joe, he's a great guy, let's lend him some money. Let's, let's help him start his business. And so based on that, you start to build a foundation of wealth. And then that gets passed on from generation to generation. I would also add into that there's knowledge that gets gained. Right. So like my parents were not entrepreneurs. I didn't know about entrepreneurship. And so I see my friends who had parents that are entrepreneurs and I just see there's so many things that they learn that I didn't learn, right. From managing money to marketing to sales to communication to leadership. There's these lessons that get passed on from generation to generation when you have that education. So the whole trust gap comes from. You know, this is an example, this article is an example of how what we call institutional racism now impacts people in 2024. Does that make sense? Did that do a good job of our, like, explaining?

I think. I think. Well, you went even in more depth. I felt like, okay, the background.

So what I. What I want to do is just tell you a little story that'll kind of give you most people an understanding, hopefully a better understanding of how this, like, institutional racism.

Yeah.

Which. That name is fucking terrible.

I was going to say, like, that relatable. Yeah.

This is one of the things that I hate about the. I don't know if you want to call it left or like, some people call them woke, but like, people that are trying to instigate positive social change, they come. They're the worst marketers on earth.

Can't argue with that.

I digress. So let's talk about the film industry. Right? So, like, this is something that I think we all watch movies, we all watch TV for the longest time. It's starting to change a little bit now. For the longest time, there was not minority representation in films and tv. And if there was, it was very, very stereotyped. So Asian Americans, you either had to know kung fu or drive. Now. Now it's like drive a fast car.

You had a place. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or you were very. If you were a man, you were very emasculated. So think of, like, long duck dong. Right? Or as a woman, you were basically a geisha. And that was true for decades. Right. As a Hispanic, you were typically like a worker or maybe a gang member. Right. And that. That. That pervaded for decades. It's now starting to change.

African Americans, different story. Okay. That is the largest minority group in the United States. What. What year do you think we had the first romantic comedy with African American. With an African American couple?

Romantic comedy. Oh, man. That's an interesting question.

Well, okay, let me. Let me actually rephrase that. What year do you think we had a movie where the leading actors were two African Americans?

I follow.

I want to say shoot. 80s or 90s?

It was in the 80s.

Okay. Yeah, I was gonna say late 80s.

If anything, coming to America.

Okay.

Amazing, amazing movie. I believe it was 89, 1989. It was the first movie. Now, for those that aren't our age, because I'm 44. For the, you know, like 1989 might seem like an eternity ago, but for me, I remember 1989. It was not that long ago. Right. That was the first time that there was a film with two African American leads and specifically an African American romantic comedy. It's an amazing movie. It's one of the greatest comedies of all time. But if you ever hear, if you happen to find an interview of Eddie Murphy trying to get that movie made, it was a nightmare. Nobody would fund the movie. Why? Why? So, you know, as an Asian American or half Asian American person, I've also researched this too.

Specifically because of Asian American actors, because the movement into the mainstream has been very slow for Asian American actors.

So if you look at, or let me just ask you, why do you think there's not as much Asian American representation in film and tv?

I gotta go back to the money. Like, who's controlling the money?

Okay, so I have had somebody say that because Asian Americans are not very good looking and that's why they're not in the movies. And I'm like, well, that's clearly racist. Like, you were a very racist person. It's like, you know, like when you look at incarceration rates and there's more African American Indians in jail, it's like, well, they're just bad people. And I'm like, well, that is clearly racist. You know, you have racist beliefs. But when we look back, it does come back to the money. But it's not as sinister as you might think.

Yeah, well, and I'm not, and I wouldn't even say it is that. It's like, it's almost like who's controlling it? So, like, what are their biases? What are the. All the. Go ahead. Yeah, there's always layers, you know, so.

When you look at the movie business, there are hundreds of millions of dollars that go in to make a film, right? And if you're a writer, you want your film to get made, right? Every writer's dream is to write a screenplay and have those films get, get produced and put into movies.

If you're a producer, you've got hundreds of millions of dollars on the line. They make a lot fewer movies these days. So you have to pick winners. Like, you cannot have. Like, if you have one movie that's a bomb, there's not only you're probably going to lose your job, but there are thousands of other people that are going to be out of work. Right? So now you're very, very conscious of, man, I gotta pick a winner. I gotta Pick a winner. And so you start to look at what are the movies that have come before that are winners, and you try and identify patterns. And so the writers also know this. So if you have a history, you know, say, you know, I don't know how long the movie business has been around, but 100 years, and we're looking at all the hits, and 90% of those have white leads. Right. And the other 10% have African American leads. As a writer, you're going to think for me to get my movie made, I have to put these people into the film. I have to write these characters into.

The model has been created. So it's like, follow.

Exactly. I have to follow that. Otherwise I'm never going to get my movies made.

Right.

And then the producers are like, okay, so I'm going to analyze these script. This is a great script, but based on what I'm looking at from a number standpoint, there's absolutely no way that I can take this risk on this type of film. Yeah, I have to go, even though this is a great film, I have to go with this script because this is the one that's going to make us money. So this is kind of like how it's a systemic problem or an institutional problem. It's not overt racism, but there are elements of it that are racist or there is, there is history that has kept people out of movie and film that is now discriminating against people in 2024. Does that make sense?

It does. I mean, it's this whole trail of events that's led us to here, to this point, you know, and.

My brain goes to like, how does this change? Like, we go back again. Do people want to change? Is there enough motivation? What does that look like?

Yeah. So I think the perfect example is actually one that Sonia gave where she was looking to buy a course and she. She asked the company, do you make this in Spanish?

That's right.

And they said, no, we don't do it in Spanish. Just So you know, 50% of the websites in the United or in the world are in Spanish.

And I'll tell you a little.

Oh, no, no, I'm sorry. 50% of the world. Of the world speak Spanish only like 10% of the world or 10% of the websites on the Internet are in Spanish. So it's a massive market that's not being touched.

There's actually a nice AI tools now that we don't need to go into, but make them very easy to.

I know you mentioned those two. I would argue that the people that program those, unless they have Spanish speakers on their staff, they probably aren't doing a very good with the translate very well.

That's probably accurate as hell. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And it's also different dialects in different countries. Like in the uk, if they, you know, they say bin and we say trash can, you know, so for sure there's little nuances, French spoken around the world.

Yeah.

So why do I care? So as a capitalist, right, as an entrepreneur and a capitalist there, you're missing out on opportunities for not caring. Now, the only way that you have the ability to see these opportunities is by having a diverse workforce. Right? Because just like you and I are always texting back and forth and I'm giving you shit, I'm giving you new ideas as well. That's part of what I'm trying to do, is change the way that you're thinking. Now, this is where Ray Dalio has a really, really, like, a brilliant formula for this. He encourages having a diverse workforce because he wants people. Whenever there's a new problem that comes up, he wants to be able to go to the person who has experience solving that type of problem. And so as our world is changing or our country is changing, our economy is changing, our target audience is changing there. If you have a diverse workforce, you're going to have a much better chance of being able to identify untapped opportunities, and you're going to win. You're going to make a lot more money. So that's kind of like the capitalist reason why you should do that. I want to make money. Like, as a business owner, I want my business to grow, and I always want to make money. I would hope that everybody is the same. The world is not going to get less white or more white. I hate to break it to you. And it's not going to get more white.

I think there are certain statistics that say that, you know, the white population will be at like 50% in the next 30 years because a lot of, like, interracial marriage and things like that, which I think is awesome, means that the sunscreen industry will go out of business.

Less chemicals for everybody.

Yeah, exactly. You know, but this is just the way that it is. The world is getting smaller, travel is getting easier. People are intermixing with each other and falling in love and recognizing, hey, we're all kind of the same, you know, like. And that's a good thing, I think, as somebody who's not a race.

Agreed, 100%.

And so this is where, you know, if you have just an if you open your eyes to what's going on and you, you are open minded enough to think differently or be willing to entertain new ideas, I think that you're going to have a great opportunity to make a lot of money.

I wouldn't agree any less, man. I mean, or any more, I guess it's literally the world's changing. It's smaller than ever before. Like you said, travel, but also information. Even with AI and technology, the fact that you can translate to any language like that might not be perfect, but now if you're paying attention, there's a lot of things you can learn really quickly about other cultures, people.

I feel like communication is like barriers will be dropped because of technology. It already is. Like you can translate on the fly, have a full conversation, not even know the language. But now you start to see, oh yeah, I am like them and.

Or there is no them.

That's the other no them.

There is no them.

The them, I guess is everyone else on the planet other than myself. You know, it's like, but even that we're all the same at the end. We. I was even looking at my dog the other night. It's like, yeah, when I have good vibes, like, she responds well. She's over here laying next to me now. It's like when I feel good, I could see she's vibing on the energy. What's to say she's not made up of the same thing? I am that you are that someone listening, like, it's all, we're all the same at the end of the day. Doesn't matter.

I agree 100%. Yeah. And so, you know, I, I'm very hopeful for the future. I'm kind of optimistic in that sense. Even though most people frustrate the hell.

Out of me, it's never going to change. People are people, you know, but.

But maybe what I am hopeful for is that people will listen to podcasts like this and be like, you know what, I never really thought about that before, you know, like, I am, I do see that things are not representative and I am willing to ask the question why. Yeah, and I'm willing to hear other voices too. Right. Because I think that's kind of like the crux of it. If you want to look at completely selfishly, you can make a lot of money if you embrace diversity because this world is becoming more diverse. But if you want to look at it from a human standpoint and you truly believe that we should all have an equal and fair opportunity right then I think just by Recognizing that you should have an open mind and that there is data that supports that something's broken.

It's the right thing to do.

I think it is. I know it is. And my question I'm thinking about now, the minorities that are listening here and the folks like yourself who are running businesses either for themselves, maybe working within one, thinking about starting one. What's some advice that you can provide them from.

Yeah, this is a great point. And we'll probably have to close on this because I think we're running out of time.

It's perfect. Yeah.

Okay. The majority of voices that are talking about dei, which I don't even like.

That term, so diversity, equity and inclusion. And inclusion, yes.

Okay.

Just to define it here, the majority.

Of the voices are from corporate America. And so I don't work in corporate America, although my first job was for a Fortune 500 company. I don't work in corporate America. I communicate mainly with entrepreneurs. Right. Small business owners. So if you're an employee and you work in a Fortune 500 company or a very large company, I'm going to say something that's a little bit controversial. Right. I believe that change comes from the top, and I do not think that the doors are magically going to open for you. Actually, this goes for small business owners, too. You are going to have to work hard. You are going to have to learn to play the game right. You are going to have to learn to work your way to the top, and you're going to have to work a lot harder. It's just the way that it is right now. But you are setting the foundation for the change that's going to come for generations that are coming after you. So in my opinion, it's worth it if you're on your Deathbed, you know, 60 years from now, and you look back and you're like, I was the first person to get to this position in this company, or I was the first entrepreneur to speak on this stage. I was the first entrepreneur to win this award or to earn this money. And that paved the way for thousands and thousands of people to come after me. I think that's a good life. You've lived a worthwhile life. And so that's kind of like my advice is that, like, we're not where. We're not even remotely close to where things are equal. Just look at the stats.

Let's figure out how we can move the needle little by little. It's going to take a long time. It's basically like we're going through a New civil rights movement. Let's figure out how we can move the needle little by little. We're going to have to work very, very hard and you're going to have to like get kicked in the teeth a lot. It's just the way that it is. But let's just keep moving forward, right? And let's, let's continue to educate and have conversations, meet great people like Joe who are willing to learn and help share our perspectives and eventually we'll get there.

And that's the thing. I think at the end of this day, my big takeaway is exactly why I brought you here in the first place, is I want to open my mind to other perspectives, not my own because I know I'm in a bubble. We're all in our own bubbles. But the fact is that we don't learn that way. That's not how we collaborate. It's not how we grow as a, a unified, you know, everyone on this planet in some way, you know, like we are all connected. And I know it's not the woo woo since it's like we legit are and you can count the ways yourself, you know?

Yeah.

So having this understanding and knowing, you know, like the term allies comes up. I know that like is, is part of it as well. But just like, you know, at the end of the day, my takeaway is more like don't need labels. Just be open minded, be curious and know that we all have the ability to have impact, some of us and there's no fault of anyone. Like we have our own biases, conditioning. We might be more heady, we might be more in our heart and thinking of that way. So it's like there's these levels of, we mentioned earlier consciousness. So. Yeah, and we're all different. It's fine. There's nothing wrong with it. But we all have the ability to evolve in that sense too. Knowing that there's more than the game we're playing right now. Like all of us.

I agree.

So, Chris, Christopher.

Thank you, sir.

Dr. Martinez, tell us not a doctor, don't take any of this. No, I'm just kidding. Give us the call to action, to your stuff. So Dude Agency your event. Leave us with that.

Yeah, I mean, you know, my website is Dude Agency IO we work with entrepreneur or not entrepreneur. We work specifically with marketing agencies, helping them to professionalize their business and fix their operations. Like consultants, essentially. But what I would like to say is we have a big event coming up in San Diego in August. It's called Agency Freedom Live. It's going to be unlike any event you've ever gone to. It's for marketing, agency owners. You're going to go. You're going to have so much fun. Our whole focus for this event is people. So we've done this event. I think this is going to be our fourth one. We're changing it up a bit, and it's going to be focusing on people. So hiring, attracting, hiring, retaining.

The best people out there and also on leadership as well, so that you can give them great opportunities and help create leaders that will help you build out your vision as well as an entrepreneur. So that's going to be in August in San Diego, that website. One more time, it's agencyfreedomlive.com. you can go and grab a ticket. We have early bird tickets right now, so hopefully you'll be there.

Yeah, I want to be.

It's going to be a ton of fun. So just to give you, like, a little bit of a preview, we're basically going to be in the classroom from, like, nine to three, and then the remainder of the time, there's going to be tons of events. Even when you're in this, like, classroom, there's going to be lots of interaction. We're going to be having you do games and stuff like that, all while learning. And then evenings and afternoons, we're having tons of events outside where you're networking, meeting people, also working, too, but in a different way. So I'm super, super stoked on this one.

You're playing, you're having fun. And let's be honest, you've had a boxing ring at your. Or a lucha libre ring at your booth at TNC before. So it's always fun.

If there's one thing I can do, I can throw a really good party.

You damn right. Yeah.

So this is going to be an event and a party, like, rolled into.

One classroom wasn't selling me, Chris. I ain't going to lie. But then, you know. But no, the fun that you layer in everything you do, I promise you.

It will be incredibly fun. Fun. You will learn a ton. Also, bring your employees, too, because they're going to learn and get to grow with other people as well.

It's going to be, unlike you, about 99% white speakers. Right. Is that.

I would say I'm shooting for, like, a hundred percent.

Okay.

White speakers is what I'm making.

Sure. All right.

Yeah. I'm shooting for 100% minority audience and 100% white speakers.

Totally makes sense.

Just so that I can be part of that the kill Whitey the trend.

On that note, did a great job.

Let's get out of here. Hopefully I don't get cancelled.