♻️ How To Be A Successful Evangelist (Featuring Guy Kawasaki)

This is called Guy's Golden Touch. And Guy's golden touch is not that whatever I touch turns to gold. Guy's golden touch is I touch what's gold. It's easy to evangelize. Canva and Macintosh. It's hard to evangelize shit. So don't try to evangelize shit. Well, duh sounds like a duh is, but you'd be amazed how many people think, I'm going to go evangelize shit. And, you know, people are going to love it. It's not going to work. So I think 90% of evangelism is a great product. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. But boys, mount Wolf and Joe Fear. Hey, welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. Today we're doing another one of our rewind flashback episodes where we kind of pull from our greatest hits. And the reason we're doing that for this weekend is because as I record this right now, Joe, my co host, is in Maui on vacation. So this is our episode for this week, and this week is one of our favorites that we've ever recorded. One of the nicest people on the planet, one of the coolest conversations we've ever had, and it is with Mr. Guy Kawasaki. And on this episode, we cover the gamut. We talk about all sorts of things that really have shaped where we are today. We talk about his approach to podcasting and how he does it different. We talk about Clubhouse. Now, this episode is from a year ago. So we talk about Clubhouse back then, and he was actually predicting that Twitter Spaces was going to come out and Twitter Spaces was going to kind of eat Clubhouse's lunch a little bit, and that kind of came true. So it's really cool to hear this conversation back and sort of see how what he said could come true. Actually did come true. We talked about how he got his job at Apple. We talked about his relationship with Steve Jobs a little bit. We talked about what an evangelist actually is and how it actually is different than a salesperson. We talked about why Guy is smiling all the time. There's actually a very specific reason. We asked him whether or not you should start a business or buy a business. We just cover a wide range of topics, and it's just a really, really fun conversation that we wanted to bring back to the forefront. And anybody who might be a newer listen to our podcast, we wanted to bring this one to anybody who's been listening to the podcast For a long time we wanted to bring one that we thought was really good back from the archives and put it in front of you again. So we really hope you enjoy this episode with Guy Kawasaki. Now make sure if you're not already you're following us on Twitter. I am Matt ourwolf on Twitter. Joe is Joe Fear on Twitter. Our gaming channel is Hardfork. Gaming on Twitter. And also join us in the Discord. Hustleandflowchart.com Discord we're in there all the time sharing all sorts of cool insights into what we're up to, projects we're investing in, projects that we think are interesting. All sorts of cool stu going on in the discord. Hustleandflowchart.com Discord and Final Call to Action. I know this is already way too many calls to actions, but final call to action. Check us out on YouTube. You can check that out at Hustle and Flowchart TV. A lot more gaming play to earn NFT content. Blockchain based stuff, but really, really good stuff. We think you're really going to enjoy it. And if you want to go down that rabbit hole with us, that's really where we're talking about a lot of that stuff as well. So I'm done rambling. Let's jump into this conversation with Guy Kawasaki.

Guy, thank you for being here with us today.

My pleasure. And honor and privilege, man.

I mean, Lisa Byer, I got to give a shout out to her. She's a mutual friend of ours. She hooked us up with the connection to you and she's like, you're going to love Guy. Everyone in the community is going to love him as well.

So have a chat and here we are.

That's right, here we are.

Yeah, I think, I think I saw you speak at Blog World Expo, which I don't even know if that's a thing anymore. But back in, had to have been around 2011 ish, maybe in LA. And ever since I saw you speak, it was, it was around the time I think you did the. I think you had a book called Ape or Ape.

Yeah.

And I think it was around the time that that book came out. And ever since we saw that presentation, I'm like, man, I want to get him on the podcast one day and interview him. So this is here we are, a full circle moment for us.

You sure waited long enough.

I know, right? We just found the right people, we asked the right question. But yeah, I mean, you just have such a fascinating history and to, you know, you are not a Guy, where I'm like, tell us your story. Because it's going to probably take a while, so let's not do that. But have you, have you perfected the 32nd, like, hey, if no one has ever heard of Guy, how would you present yourself?

Oh, man, if I can't do an elevator picture myself, who the hell can, right? So, okay, so, well, you starting the clock? How long?

Oh, I'm grilling. Yeah, I'm looking at it.

Okay, so my name is Guy Kawasaki. I'm chief evangelist of Canva. It's an online graphic design service from Sydney, Australia. I'm also creating the Remarkable People podcast. I used to be chief evangelist of Apple and I was on the board of trustees of Wikipedia. I'm also the author of 15 books.

That's amazing. And the chief evangelist, the evangelist term, I know, that's the constant that has basically translated in everything you've done and you basically coined that term.

Well, there was Jesus before me, don't forget.

Good point. He was pretty big.

There was a 2000 year gap.

Somehow you took the reign title.

I love it.

It was a tough act to.

I mean, you're writing a lot of books, so you got that check mark of it too.

Yeah, yeah. Gospel According to Guy.

A wise guy, right? Book one.

Yeah.

Well, speaking of that, are you working on others? Because you have 15 books. Last one was 20, 19, I think.

14 times I've said I'm never writing another book.

Right.

So I don't know how the hell I wrote 15 books.

If you had told me, if you had told me in 1987 when I did my first book, you're going to write 14 more, I would have told you you're nuts. But I don't think I'm going to write another one because I like podcasting so much and I like podcasting more.

Tell me about that, because that is one of our questions of remarkable people.

Well, so I think that podcasts, first of all, it's much more timely. So if something happens last week, you know, next week's podcast can address that as opposed to the year and a half delay on a book. And with a book you get one advance in three trancers, but with a podcast, you can charge every week, sponsor or an advertiser forever. And as your podcast gets more successful, you can charge more, whereas with a book you're getting a flat two or three bucks ever. And you know, it just depends on the trajectory of the book. With a podcast, it's much more flexible. We can do many more things. I Don't think it's easier to do than a book because the podcast requires, I think, as much editing as a book, at least the way I do a podcast.

Well, what's. I'd be curious, because everyone has their own style about podcasting, and, you know, we have our own art format. Give us the. What's your. What's your kind of flow prep look like? Yeah, the flow. How do you think of it?

So, you know, today I interviewed somebody. I did two or three hours of research on her. Many times the people I'm interviewing have written a book, so I read the book. Sometimes I read the previous book. So two books. I probably put in three to five hours of prep for every guest. So. Did you put five hours of prep into me?

I actually, I would be inching right around that. I. I'm not gonna lie.

Really.

I.

Okay.

I have a different approach. I mean, I bounce all over the place. I want to see everything. Like the TED talk. I don't know. You have like 20 of them, it seems.

Yeah, so. So there's that. So, you know, let's say three, three hours or so for each guest. Then there's the one hour interview, and then we take two soundtracks and the sound engineer puts them together and uploads them to descript. Do you use descript?

We do.

So we upload to descript. And then I. I take the first pass edit at the script because I hate filler words and I hate when people repeat themselves. So I think my job is to make the person look and sound as remarkable as possible, which can often take out. I've had instances where in one hour, the guest says, you know, 200 times.

Right.

So I take those out. As opposed to other podcasters who just believe in turning it on and letting people hear. Exactly. You know, how it went down. I edit. So I spent a couple hours editing, and then I give it to the sound designer, and then he goes and he spends another four or five hours editing, often undoing my edit because I edit too heavily. And then he adds the sound and the music and all that kind of stuff. So now it's, quote, unquote, done. And then Peg Fitzpatrick takes over and does the marketing on the day of announcement, which is another five hours. So there's probably 15 hours per hour of finished product.

It's a. It's a masterpiece. I know. Like, right when I hit play for the very first time, I was listening to the Tim Ferriss podcast, which you don't get Tim on many other podcasts outside. So. Yeah, Congrats to you on that one. That's amazing.

Thank you.

It was amazing to also get him out of his mold, you know, So I definitely recommend everyone listen to that one on your show. Thank you. But immediately when I hit play, I was like, this sounds just next level. Like, just the quality of the intro. I forget how it goes now, but it just. It doesn't sound like a podcast intro. You know, you actually put some thought into it.

Oh, my God. I, you know, I. I write out the intro. I write out the outro. Listen. The secret to my success in life is grit and hard work. It's not because it's, I don't know, natural visionary kind of stuff. So, like, my podcast is probably the antithesis of a Joe Rogan podcast, right?

Sure.

So. Oh, yeah, yeah.

The other benefits, I mean, it seems like you show up, you know, the way that I know you've heard and you said this many times, is getting lucky is better than being smart. You know, you kind of lean into that more. Do you think the podcast is part of that? It's almost like showing up in this person's world consistently.

Yeah. It's a skill to figure out what to ask a person, and I kind of believe that I was just born for podcasting.

Love it.

I can conduct an interesting conversation with almost anybody. Today I interviewed a plastic surgeon from Beverly Hills. Like, that's not exactly like interviewing Steve Wozniak, you know what I'm saying? So that's a whole different wheelhouse there.

So what's your approach to questioning then? Because I know everyone has a different approach there as well.

Well, my approach to questioning, I don't know how the questions pop into my head. I mean, you know, so I. This is a real unusual case. I'm interviewing a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon, and I ask her, you're like, do you ever turn down cases? Why? And what do you do with people who come in and they have what's called bdd, which is body dysmorphic something? You know, these are people who just kind of addicted to plastic surgery. And. And they think, oh, you know, this 2 centimeter lump on my cheek, everybody's staring at it, but really, you know, people don't even notice it. So I asked those kinds of questions. I don't ask typical questions in the sense of, so, you know, what makes you remarkable? Can you tell us how you became remarkable? What do you feel strongly about? What, you know, what makes you feel good? How do you. I don't ask questions that sort of look like, oh, so what he did was he read Wikipedia's entry, and then he's asking the same questions of everybody. And in fact, one of the things that I like to ask as the very first question, I think the very first question is maybe the most important one, is I always try to ask a question so that the guest truly understands. Guy did the research. He really checked it out, because, you know, he didn't just read the Wikipedia entry. So a few weeks ago, I interviewed Angela Duckworth, the MacArthur Award winner and author of Grit. And the first question I asked her was, is your daughter still taking viola lessons? Because in the book Grit, she talks about how everybody in her family has to do something that's hard, you know, something that requires practice, and it's not purely fun. And her thing was viola. And so the first question was about her daughter's viola, which what I'm trying to trigger is I want Angela to say, aha. So, you know, this guy clearly did his research, he read the book, he knew my daughter is taking viola. So that's my secret to starting up an episode.

A subtle little. Little mark there. Yeah, I like that. And I feel like. Yeah, the momentum before, for us, like, it'll be kind of like the before banter and any relatability, we can get going and then almost hit the record.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Within that momentum. Because you're right, it's the beginning. You gotta get the wheels moving, you know, and see where it heads. Yeah, well.

And you figure, you know, many of these people, they've been on podcasts hundreds of times, right. So they're all asked the same question, like, how did it feel to win a MacArthur Award? Well, duh. I mean.

You'Ll never know.

That's during a question. Yeah.

Do you have any thoughts on this new Clubhouse app that everybody. It seems like Silicon Valley is, like, real up on it, and it's sort of an extension of podcasting. Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah. You know, in a sense, it's like podcasting, only in real time with no editing and no stickiness. And so it's kind of podcasting meets, attending a conference meets a radio talk show, which, you know, and probably has the worst of all. So I have jumped on it because I think that for any social media platform, I need to jump on it just in case it takes off. So I don't really know if it will succeed, but if it does succeed, I don't want to be the last one to the party, because the longer you wait, the harder it is to get a following. And also I don't want some asshole to squat on my name. And then I got to go figure out who at Clubhouse do I convince that I am the guy Kawasaki, not this 16 year old kid in Shanghai who said he is the Kawasaki. So get his ass off. So, you know, instead of having that battle, I just grabbed the name right away.

Yeah.

So I think it could succeed. But I also thought that about Ello and Meerkat and Periscope.

Right.

So. And MySpace. So clearly I've been wrong. Right now I think there's a little too much of marketers talking to marketers and wannabes talking to wannabes and has been talking to wannabes and Wannab the has beens. And so, so many of the conversations was, yeah, you know, you got to believe in yourself. And I believed in myself. And so I started a company called Blow Consulting. And then I wrote a book called the Blow Away. And now I have the online Blow Away seminars. If you look at my Instagram profile, there's a link you can click to to get my free offer for the first, first course of my online course of how to blow away people. The Blow Away. And, and it's like, and you know, on Clubhouse, in the first four weeks, I've already done $2 million worth of business. And so I'm going to teach you how to rock Clubhouse too. Just like me. It's like, you know, you're so full of shit. There's nobody who's done $2 million worth of business on Clubhouse.

You can't do it either.

Yeah, you can't do it either. Yeah.

So you're in the same kind of rooms that we've frequented and same exact thoughts on our side too. Because there's, there's Silicon Valley rooms, I've noticed, like Naval and Kamal Ravikant were in this one with someone high up in Apple as well. And they were having a panel talking about their perception of Clubhouse and how it's changed now that marketers have entered the room for different, totally different uses of Clubhouse. It's interesting.

I think if Clubhouse is going to succeed, it's not because there's get rich quick schemers talking to other get rich schemers. I think it's because it's going to be a lot of different flowers blooming. Like, you know, there'll be one about a Clubhouse club about Indian cooking and one about crocheting and one about yoga and one about hiking in the Bay Area and one about, you know, 65 mustangs or, you know, whatever it is. So I hope that there's kind of an infinite number of small rooms with highly focused topics as opposed to, you know, this is the millionaires dinner club, and we have 5,000 listeners here standing by. So tell us, Joe, how did you become so successful with the blow away? And, I mean, hit me up.

Yeah, right, right, right. You can only take so much of that bullshit.

It's true. Yeah. I think it's going to go that direction in the way that it's rolling out. It's interesting how they're rolling it out, but, yeah, I would hope that it goes all topical in a localized region where it's not massive.

Yeah. And then, you know, I mean, let's face it. So Twitter's working on spaces. You know, Facebook is going to do something, you know, you. There's two schools of thought, Right. So the pioneer, deeper into it, got the head start, can take on the established company. The other flip side is Twitter already has, I don't know, 300 million people, and if just 1% of them started using Twitter Spaces, they're equal to Clubhouse on day one. So I have a million and a half followers on Twitter. Probably half of them are bots or dead. And, you know, I have, I don't know, 25,000 on clubhouse. Well, might be easier for me to convert my Twitter following to a social audio aspect of Twitter than to start all over on Clubhouse. And I don't. I don't know the answer to that question yet.

Yeah, almost every time I'm on Clubhouse, too, I feel like there's a room going on with a title that says something to the effect of will Clubhouse Kill Podcasts?

Right.

There seems to be, like, a lot of people that are worried that people are going to stop listening to podcasts and just sort of tune into conversations on Clubhouse now all the time instead. But, you know, I think you actually described with your podcast the perfect reason why podcasts are never going to die. I think, you know, the production quality and the sort of structure that you can create with podcasts is going to continue to differentiate. But I'm curious, what are your thoughts? Do you think it's going to impact podcasting?

Well, honestly, the reason why I'm on Clubhouse is I hope to get more people to listen to my podcast. So Clubhouse is a means to an end. Not an end in and of itself. You know, the other kind of room that's always there is how to monetize Clubhouse. And you know what? There's going to be maybe five people who can monetize Clubhouse. Like, if you think Trixie and Biff and Joe Blow are going to monetize Clubhouse. This I got to see. I mean, I. I would be astounded when you look at someone like, my hero is Marques Brownlee on YouTube. Right. And so, I don't know. He's got 30 million followers on YouTube. He has, like, the best tech reviews and unboxings. That's 30 million followers. I mean, you know, that's what it takes. 30 million followers would mean you need everybody on clubhouse times 10.

It's true.

You know, this ain't gonna happen too soon. So, you know, if you're Trixie and Biff and Joe and you're worried about monetizing Clubhouse, you're delusional. I mean, it's.

No, it's. Not to say no one will, but it ain't gonna be that easy.

No, no. And, yeah, I wouldn't. I want to put everything in the Clubhouse. But, like, like you said, it's. It's showing up, it's claiming your name. I mean, did you get Guy like you did on Facebook? Because I noticed that when I was stalking you.

Well, I, you know, I just got Guy Kawasaki. As long as. Shit, I'm just happy. People don't think I. Real rich dad. Poor dad.

I'm sure you get too much of that. Won't even bring that up here, but. But I mean, to that point, it seems like this is how we've been seeing Clubhouse. And we have seen a spike in our down downloads on our podcast because at least we think it's, you know, correlated to that. We can't.

That's great.

I haven't.

Got to be on there, but. No, I guess, Yeah. I don't know.

I should promise people that I know how to make them rich quick if they listen to my podcast.

That's all it takes.

Yeah, I blew it. I freaking blew it.

No, we don't do that.

Yeah, right.

But it's showing up in the room, and I feel like that's just. I feel like that's your whole career for the most part, and maybe even before the career is. It's being in the room and somehow finding yourself in. Into that room. I mean, all the way from back to Apple. You know, I'm kind of curious. I kind of want to hear the story there around how you got in there. I mean, I know the story, but I want to share it with the folks here.

Well, yeah, the short story is that I got my job at Apple because of nepotism. It was my college roommate who hired me, so it's not because of my perfect educational work experience. It's because my buddy hired me. And there's a lesson there which is be nice to people in college, number one. And number two, it really didn't matter how I got into Apple. What mattered is what I did after I got into Apple. Because Steve Jobs wasn't gonna keep me around just because my college roommate hired me. He would have fired my ass the next day if I was incompetent. So the lesson is, don't worry about how you get into a company. It's what you do once you get in.

So once you're in, what would your first. You mentioned grit. Another thing I wanna bring up is you're always smiling and I absolutely love it. And I know that's a big piece of it. We'll talk about that in a second. But what was your first move or multiple moves in the beginning once you got into Apple, knowing you're like, oh, I'm in, bro.

You're asking me to remember what I did in 1983. I can't remember what I did yesterday. I mean, yeah, that's true.

Me too.

You know, I just. Listen, my job was to convince people to write Macintosh software. And I came from a non technical background. So first of all, I had to learn some of the technology. And then it was just trial by fire. I mean, it was hit the road, Jack. So those are good days. Those are good days. I didn't know what I didn't know.

I think that's the best days, huh? Yeah. Get thrown into the mix. You're like, good luck.

Amen.

How would you define what an evangelist is? Because when I. When I think of an evangelist, I think of somebody who really loves a product. So they're going to go tell everybody they know about a product that's kind of evangelist. In my mind.

That's pretty good. I mean, basically, evangelist comes from a word meaning bringing the good news. So I brought the good news of Macintosh making people more creative and productive. I am bringing the good news of Canva, how it will make everybody a better communicator because they can create great graphics. That's what an evangelist does. Now, a salesperson is primarily concerned with his or her income quota and bonus. But an evangelist is concerned also with the wellbeing of the customer. The opposite person.

It's interesting looking at influencers now. I'm just thinking of like those Instagram influencers, the ones that are evangelists, or they might call them, like, they're not evangelists.

They're hired guns.

Thank you.

I mean, listen, I'll take an extreme example, right? Do you think Matthew McConaughey drives a Lincoln?

Seriously doubt it.

If we went to his house, do you think we'd see him driving around in a Lincoln? There is no freaking.

You think Shaquille o' Neal uses ice and icy cold hot packs or whatever? No, there's no freaking way. I'm telling you, though, I use a Macintosh. I'm a brand ambassador for peace vans. This is a company that upfits Mercedes mattresses. I really do have one of those. I really use it. I'm helping a company called Merge4. I really love their socks. I think they have the best socks. And so I don't get involved with stuff that I don't use.

So as podcasters, I know Joe and I. So one of our big goals as podcasters is to be evangelists. Right. So one of the ways that we do that in our business is through affiliate marketing. We talk about the tools that we love and use in our own business, and we tell people about it. We'll get a commission if people buy through our links. What advice would you give people who want to be that career evangelist? The thought of being an evangelist for products sounds really, really good. How does somebody take a career path into evangelizing products?

Well, I mean, this is called Guy's Golden Touch. And Guy's golden touch is not that whatever I touch turns to gold. Guy's golden touch is I touch what's gold. So it's easy to evangelize. Canva and Macintosh. It's hard to evangelize shit. So don't try to evangelize shit. Well, duh sounds like a duh is, but you'd be amazed how many people think, I'm gonna go evangelize shit. And, you know, people are gonna love it. It's not gonna work. So I think 90% of evangelism is a great product.

And you use the product too. Because I know in Canva, you were a user and didn't they reach out to you?

They found me.

Yeah. I mean, how much better is that? And it's. I loved reading and hearing that about you because that's. That is how we approach affiliate marketing. We've been doing it for 10 plus years.

Yeah. I mean, you know, as long as people understand that you're not pimping a product just to get the affiliate fees, it's because you truly do believe in it. Right. That's the key.

Yeah. And people see through it, too. I mean, I Know, our community has reached out to us many times and saying, you're approaching this in a different way than most affiliate marketers. I mean, we're in that bucket, I guess. You know, most people don't take the evangelist approach.

I can hardly wait till you guys endorse the Lincoln Navigator.

I don't know if Lincoln's on my.

List, but my favorite is when I see, like, basketball players or professional athletes promoting McDonald's or something. It's like, you know, your trainer's gonna kick your ass if they ever catch you eating that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

I want to go to the smiling thing. And I know it's. I don't know, from the outside perspective, it just seems so, like, hey, smiling a lot. Great, great. But how have you. I mean, I feel like I tend to do it often. It feels good, but it's because we're sharing, I don't know, good vibes, good feeling, and we're doing. We're having fun.

If you're having fun and you're, you know, you're getting people to make their lives better by picking the right product and stuff.

Yeah.

Well, what is there to be grumpy about? I do think that, you know, people have different dispositions and I just happen to be a glass is half full positive rising tide floats all boats kind of guy. I don't know. It's not my fault you're a grump.

Have you always had that outlook? I mean, I know you're from Hawaii, you know.

Yeah. I mean, you know, like, that's your problem. Eat and die, bro.

Not my problem. I'm good. But you're right. No, you're 100% right. Do you think that I mean that. I feel like that can get you through all the challenges, the grittiness, like, you mentioned getting thrown into the shit, the mix and figuring out your way, and it opens doors. I feel like when other people are stonewalled or stone faced.

Yeah, I don't, you know, but like, I don't. I don't like to do business with grumpy people, but, you know, I'd rather do business with a. Like, I think the first check mark is competence. Second check mark is happy in business anyway, because, you know, I don't want to do business with a happy, incompetent person.

That's on the low left of the graph.

That is the wrong part of the graph.

Yes. On that note, let's talk about high and to the right, because I know that's something that you've had in Your TED talks and you've spoken about quite a bit. Can you explain that for us?

This is the famous guy Kawasaki. Two by two matrix. The vertical axis measures degree of uniqueness or differentiation. The horizontal axis measures value. I think the key to life is that you are unique and valuable. If you're unique and not valuable, then you're just plain dumb. You own a market that doesn't exist. If you are valuable but not unique, you always have to compete on price because people can get the same thing. And if you're not unique and not valuable, then you just totally suck. And it's not even worth discussing. So the corner you want to be is when you are unique and valuable. And that could be as a spouse, as an employee, or as a product. And so when the ipod first came out, it was unique and valuable. It was the only way that you could put a device in your pocket with a user interface that immortal could operate. You could get a wide selection of music legally, inexpensively and easily. There's no other product that could do that at the time. So it was unique and valuable.

Yeah, I think the other option at the time was it like a zoom or some. Some wheel thing.

Time and multimedia. Yeah, whatever that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I guess when you're evangelizing companies, would they already. Are you looking at their company and obviously are using them, but to be a marketable type of. Of tool or a software company, do you kind of go through an audit and make sure.

First of all, I don't, you know, I don't view the lens. My lens is not. Is this a company that I can have a business relationship with, with as an evangelist? I was using Canva and they found me. I didn't find them. I found them as a user, but I didn't find them as a. You know, let me apply there. The order for me is I fall in love with something and it happens that they need an evangelist or an ambassador or advisor. Like, for example, do you use Descript?

Yes.

Right. So Descript is something. If they ever asked me, Descript is something I could evangelize. Because I. True. I spent hours and hours in Descript every week. I don't know how I would do podcasting without Descript, to tell you the truth. Because if I was in GarageBand and I was trying to, you know, remove every freaking time somebody says or, you know, or write, my podcast would be different. You would hear all the ums and rights, you know, because I wouldn't take them out. But with the script, it has empowered me to do podcast editing that I could have never done before. So do you have direct contact with them?

We don't, but I bet we could figure out how and maybe.

No, no, no. I was just wondering. So, yeah, there's some things I would like to change. Like, we're going really deep into the weeds here, but. So do you ever work in the view where the tracks are separated so you can edit one track and not the other?

I have. Okay. I'm just going to be honest. Guy Jacob on our team is a master at Descript. We're like, super surface level. It's been a while. And I know they're layering so many features on there, it seems like weekly. But describe a little bit. Yeah, a little bit What?

So one view of Descript, what Descript does is you. You load up your tracks. So in this case, there would be probably three tracks. Right. One from each mic. You load them up, you combine them, and then there's a transcription of all three tracks. And then you edit text. So you can remove text and that would remove the audio. So if you see where I say, you select the um and you say, you know, ignore that, then when you listen to it again, the um is gone. And so that's a beautiful thing. As opposed to what, you know, trying to look at for that little jag in the sound wave where you're going to eliminate that.

Yep.

So that is a beautiful thing. But there's two views where you hear all three at once and you edit the text, but then there are times where people are laughing over the other person, and that's when you want to go into the separate view where you can see each track. So if you're laughing while I'm talking, we can edit your track to take the laughter out so you only hear me talking. So that's another view of the audio in description. So I was just wondering if you use that view.

I'm sure Jacob is probably nodding aggressively right now or editing, because he absolutely loves it. And we used to use Adobe Audition and. Yeah, I mean, you. Matt did most of the editing prior to him, but Descript is a complete game changer.

Oh, yeah, it's.

Have you ever used the type. Type it out and it basically creates your voice?

I did train it, but I'm such a perfectionist that I haven't seen the use case for that. Right. So if I'm doing the intro or the outro, I just record it over and over until I like it. As opposed to an engineer types in these words and you know, use synthesize guide. We never do that.

Yeah, I think it's good for filler words or, you know, if something got cut out, maybe in zoom or something. Internet connection.

This is sort of a fairly dramatic shift. But we did ask some questions of our listeners. I want to ask some questions from them. So Rick Friesen, he was asking. So you wrote the Art of the Start. Do you still recommend that people start businesses from scratch or do you encourage people to buy companies and then sort of pivot it more towards your purpose?

Boy, I'm not exactly an expert in that, but my scenario is always starting a company. Now, people have to understand that I'm talking about a tech company. Right? So. So if you want to be in the dry cleaning business and somebody already has three dry cleaners, so you want to boot up fast, God bless you. Buy the three dry cleaners. But in the software business or in the tech business, why would you want to buy somebody else's piece of shit?

You know what I'm saying? I hope you're an entrepreneur who believes that you can do better than this thing you're going to buy. Now, as companies reach a certain mass, then why not grab their install base, their technology, their people.

But.

But I don't know. It's hard to imagine a scenario where you're going to buy a business before. It's almost like you want to buy a business where the owners don't want to sell.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. If they're willing to sell it, then they know the skeletons and why they don't want it anymore.

Exactly.

Totally makes sense.

That's good perspective. It's always go for the motivations of the seller or, you know, but even better if they're not even willing to sell, somehow get a there to that point, because you've said this before is I wrote the quote down here is entrepreneurship is a state of mind, not a job title. And I forget exactly where I pulled that from, but it was interesting.

I forget where I said it.

This is the thing. My research is kind of like this big spider web of stuff. So I figured something rings a bell. But.

You'Ve started companies, but you've also been in a position hired on at like Canva, for instance. You interviewed or at least what we read in. You did interview the founder of Canva, who's your boss.

For my podcast. Yes.

Yes, for your podcast. Yeah. So it's. I guess speaking of that, that quote, you know, entrepreneurship is a state of mind, not a job title because there's a Lot of entrepreneurs listening right here. They might have that state of mind, but they might all think they have to run their own business.

Well, I mean, what I'm trying to get at is that, you know, entrepreneurship is an attitude, and it's a mindset of, the glass is half full, the world can be a better place. I can deal with the negativity and doubt. I am not a risk lover, but I am not going to let risk paralyze me. And so this is kind of the mental state of an entrepreneur. Whereas some people think of it as a title, and a lot of it is they're so worried about positioning as a thought leader and writing white papers and appearing at conferences and being synonymous with something and positioning themselves as this great CEO and all that. Like, just cut the bullshit. I mean, if you just made a great product, everything else falls into place. But if you're trying to position, you know, do you think Elon Musk or Steve Jobs gets up in the morning saying, huh, Elon, how can I position myself as a thought leader today? Why don't I make a car? Oh, yeah, good job, Elon. You know, I refuse to believe that Steve Jobs and Elon Musk ever think about how they position themselves as thought leaders, gurus, or visionari.

Yeah, well, I mean, I'd say that's pretty evident with Elon, just with some of his appearances on Joe Rogan. He wasn't thinking about it too much.

Twitter post, back and forth. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah, I guess speaking of, you know, Steve Jobs, you having worked for him and right alongside him, like, what would he say about the state of, I guess, everything in digital right now? You know, the. I don't know. It just seems like there's a lot going on that's different.

I really, you know, know, I. I'm a mere mortal. I cannot possibly understand the Steve Jobs operating system. And I would make the case that anybody who tells you that they understand Steve Jobs and could predict what he would do is full of shit. I mean, it's kind of. If you think the Turing test is tough, you try to take the Jobs test.

I don't. I would not know. I don't know. For all I know, he would have loved Donald Trump. Who the hell knows?

Why not?

Yeah. Oh, God. Like, you know, the Avocar is such a source of humor for me because, like, I. Obviously, I know what it takes to make a personal. Maybe not obviously, but I do know, you know, kind of what it takes to make a personal computer. And I became a Mercedes Benz brand. Ambassador. So I kind of know what it takes to make a car. A car is about a thousand times more difficult than a computer because, you know, when a car fails, people die. Mm. It's not just, you know, hold command, shift pr, and reboot your car. A computer. You know, the worst case of a computer is somebody takes it to a dusty, crowded Starbucks. Right? Well, a car. Rain, sleet, snow, you know. Idiot. I mean, idiot. There's so many. Somebody doesn't put oil in. Somebody puts the wrong kind of oil. Somebody puts diesel in a gas engine. I mean, so many things go wrong, and there's so many more factors in a car than a computer. So Apple's gonna make a car. This I gotta see.

We all wanna see it. Maybe. Yeah.

Well, first of all, Apple's gonna make a car, right? And so I can tell you right now, it's gonna be just the world's greatest car for the first 75 miles, and then you gotta recharge it. Okay? So that's number one. Now, when you use the charger, you can't use the industry standard or the Tesla supercharger. You gotta buy this $2,000 dongle. It fits on top of the cable that goes into.

Because Apple had to create a special cable that nobody else uses for their electricity. In fact, they almost considered making their own kind of electricity, which would have been proprietary, but they decided to use industry standard IEEE electricity and just changed the dongle.

Thank you, Apple, for making it simpler.

I think the most ridiculous thing that. You know, we're on Apple computers. I'm actually an Apple fan, but I think the magic mouse that you have to plug into the bottom of the mouse is one of the most ridiculous designs of.

Ever seen.

To charge it.

Yeah, to charge the mouse.

Would you buy a car from a company that gives you only two USB C ports?

Hell, no.

Right? So would you buy a car from a company that took out your SD card reader because they decided nobody had a SD card reader? Or would you buy a car that. You know. So maybe there's only one port into the car, but then you can buy an optional dongle in case you want to put other things into your car. I mean, this I gotta see.

I.

Let me tell you something. I will not be the first early adopter of an Apple car, trust me. Because I know how hard it is to make a car.

Look at Elon. I mean, he's been at it for a while now, and. Yeah, yeah, well.

But, you know, Elon supports the argument that one guy can make a car now, of course, the windows fly off all the time.

Sure. They break like that sometimes.

Yeah. Minor details. Yeah. But I mean, still, he. You know, Mercedes Benz is not 200 years old or something, and Tesla is 20 years old or 10 years old. Right. So it can be done. But. Oh, man. I just.

Yeah.

I'm not going to be the first. I'm not buying Apple Car 1.0, I guarantee you that.

I think it's probably a smart move to the point about the whole, like, command shift, whatever. I remember the Tesla. I had a Tesla for a little bit, and when. When nothing was working, I had to think of it like a computer. And it really was. Hold down a couple of buttons and remember this.

You have to reboot.

It was a reboot. And I was like, oh, it's a computer more than a car. Wow. This is a total paradigm shift.

The very first time we ever got in it, we couldn't get the radio to work. And the way to get the radio to work was turn everything off and then turn it back on again, just like a computer.

Sounds familiar, right? Maybe somebody who worked for Microsoft designed that part.

Probably. Probably. Oh, my God. All right, let's wrap this up so you can get out of here. What are some interesting things so remarkable. I think it's a newer product you're evangelizing on your podcast. It looks really cool.

Oh, the tablet. The tablet, yeah. So this is. People think I am frigging genius because I have the Remarkable People podcast sponsored by the Remarkable Tablet. But I'm going to tell you, it's just pure accident. I came up with the name Remarkable People, and then months, months later figured out, oh, there's a tablet. What a great person for a sponsorship. And then luckily, the Remarkable Tablet is so well done. And, you know, I use it. I use it all the time. And what my use case is, I draft my podcast questions using Google Docs, because sometimes I let other people into it and edit and then I print it to PDF. Then I put it on my Remarkable. And so during a podcast, I'm actually taking notes on my Remarkable during the podcast for two reasons. One is I'm worried about the clacking noise of Apple's keyboard. Right? So I don't want the keyboard noise in it. And secondly, I think when people see you using a tablet and writing, it's a positive. You know, they think, oh, my God, guy must think I'm smart. He's taking notes. Right. Whereas if they see you typing, they're thinking, oh, guy is answering email. It's not a good thing.

Yeah.

So I think improves the attention of your guests if they see that you're taking notes with a pencil like device as opposed to pounding away on your keyboard, answering your wife or answering your son or, you know, ordering Instacart.

There you go. Love Instacart.

Yeah.

But yeah, maybe we should upgrade our. Because we do the same thing, taking notes and having. I mean, we do physical paper. But remarkable is.

Well, my, you know, my problem with physical paper is that at any given point I have like four legal tablets and you know, these leather bound things and they're all scattered around different. And I don't know where I. I don't know what I wrote in what. And so with the remarkable, the beauty is it syncs to the cloud. So even if the tablet is stolen or lost or destroyed, I still have it in the cloud. And it also, it can take your writing and ocr. I've never done that because I don't need to get digital. I start digital and then I go analog, taking not on the questions. And then once that I'm done with that, I'm done with that. I don't, you know, retranslate the notes. So that's my use case for the. For remarkable.

I love that use case. Thanks for sharing that because I think that just solved some things in my mind because I'm like you. I'm like notepads everywhere. I love writing things down. But where is that thing? Where did that go?

Yeah, but.

All right, Guy. Okay, thank you very much. Everyone. Listen to Remarkable People podcast and pick up the one of 15 books that guy has out there. We'll link everything in the show notes. I appreciate you, man. Thank you.

Thank you. Take care. Good luck to you all. Bye bye.

Bye. Thanks so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed that blast from the past with Guy Kawasaki. We had a really, really great time with him. Again, one of the nicest people on the planet. One of the easiest people in the world to talk to. We had a great time chatting with him. So I really, really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Now, if you haven't already, make sure you're following us on Twitter. I am ourwolf on Twitter. Joe is Joe Fear on Twitter. We've got the Hard Fork gaming Twitter as well. We talk about play to earn and guilds and all sorts of cool stuff in the gaming blockchain Play to earn metaverse space. So make sure you're following those Twitters and also check us out in our discord hustleandflowchart.com discord that's where you can chat directly with us. And we also put out a lot of video content. Hustleandflowchart tv. You can find videos from me, Joe, our buddy's fun uncle, Crypto Buffalo, and all sorts of cool, cool guests and a whole new cast of characters over on hustleandflowchart tv. So check out all those places. We love you for tuning in. Thank you so much. Share this episode with somebody. If you enjoyed it, you think somebody else will as well. That is the best way that you could support the show is just share this around. That is so cool of you to do. And thanks again. We'll see you in the next one.

Bye.

Sam.