How to Beat Google, ChatGPT, and TikTok At Their Own Game! - Jason Barnard

Using only 20% of your business data is kind of like texting with someone who only texts in emojis. First of all, it's super annoying and you're not getting the full picture. You're missing a ton of context. That's kind of how businesses are operating right now, where they're using only 20% of their data unless you have HubSpot. So with HubSpot, this is where your emails, your call logs, your chat messages, all that can be turned into actionable insights that actually grow your business all within that platform. Because all that data is really going to make all the difference. It's a total game changer. So learn more over@HubSpot.com what if Google, Chad, GPT and TikTok already know more about your business than your customers do? And they're the ones that are actually going to decide who gets found and the CEO of everybody else out there, is it going to be you? So I chose to have Jason Barnard here in the podcast today because, because this is super timely. He's going to break down how to actually take control of your digital identity, how to build trust with AI and how to position yourself for the future of search. Jason's been doing this for 27 years, search optimization. So this is extremely timely, very tactical. Let's dive into it.

All right, Jason, we're finally hitting record because already the pre chat, always a good thing when we're, we're relating to people that we know and just getting excited for what's to come. So thanks for hanging out with me today, Jason.

Brilliant. Thank you, Joe. And I love the pre chat.

It's usually some of the best stuff and I just have to like, cut it off, like got to hit record, got to go. So we were, we were, yeah, going down memory lane a little bit. You have 27 years of experience of working with, you know, maybe it wasn't always called SEO at the time, but basically search and how to optimize things, it's evolving massively. You said you're up at 3am today with like fireworks bursted in your mind, like there's new, new stuff.

So no 100%. And I started in the year that Google was incorporated, 1998. And I was doing white text and a white background. I was doing submitting to these different engines, different pages for each engine, for each variant. And I've come all the way through now to these machines are sufficiently smart to understand who you are, what you do, who you serve, are you credible and should they actually recommend you as a solution and it's a huge evolution.

And so, I mean like you've done this for like I said, 27 years. And so well over 20 years you've seen evolution happen. I guess what, we don't need to go and step through all the evolution because it's changed a ton. But I guess what are the biggest changes that maybe are happening right now and what are to come that people aren't really realizing what's happening?

No, I love that question because actually we can basically forget everything that happened before.

Okay, that's good.

Just chucking in a bin. And we can look at AI assistive engines, which is ChatGPT, Google, AI mode, Copilot. These engines are designed to help us as users go from top to bottom of a funnel to find the solution to our problem. And it might be paid for, it might be just a conversion for you. And you're not optimizing for the visit, you're optimizing for the click. And that's the perfect click, which is the bottom of funnel. This is the solution that the engine has recommended.

And that's true engagement. When someone's clicking and taking an action, I mean those are the people you want. You don't want to just be visible in things that aren't relevant.

Right? Yeah. And I think as businesses we're thinking, well this middle of funnel or top of funnel content we've created, I need visits. And the answer is no you don't. What you need is that the machine rebuilds that funnel in its brain and leads the person to you for the perfect click. So clicks on your middle and top of funnel content are no longer a great KPI. It's when do people come to your website and simply buy.

So you're basically saying that now we're living in this age of with AI so smart and it's just getting smarter. We'll talk about that with agents and things that if we position ourselves correctly and that the AI platforms understand that and us and what we put out there, it's basically going to find us the best buyers or most buyer intent people from the get go. Instead of us having to nurture everybody and take a long time.

No 100%. And so they nurture and they recommend and that's brilliant. Oh, and you can actually fight these machines with exactly what they're trying to do to us.

Tell me more about that. What do you, what do you mean?

Well, they're creating walled gardens where they take the person entirely down the funnel. If they ever leak, I. E. They send somebody to your website before the end of the funnel. Create your own walled garden. Let them out.

Yeah. How would you define them at their own game? So how would you recommend someone, What's a basic structure of, like, a walled garden from your perspective? A person.

Well, what they're doing is saying, okay, we've got an awareness question. And we then take that down to consideration. Then we take it down to decision. If ever you get a click from the awareness moment, you have to have that awareness page pushing people down the funnel so they don't go back to the engine to ask for a recommendation which might not be you.

So basically.

It'S kind of cute in the sense that they're creating walled gardens that are not letting people out of their ecosystem. If they ever send somebody to you, do the same thing.

Yeah. Play their game, but make sure you're also playing their game. Right. Like, it's kind of. You have to. And Google's always been that way too. Right. Like, they've always kind of had these rules that they tell you or they hint to how to play by the rules, but obviously the rules change all the time.

Exactly. And if you can beat the rules at any point in the funnel, take the opportunity to not let the person go back, and then you've beaten the machine at its own game.

We mentioned SEO, and that's why I think when people immediately think of, you know, oh, you worked with Google for a long time, you're an SEO guy, blah, blah, blah, you know, and we're already connecting on the previous guy that I've had on the show many times, Gert Malik from Spain. Yeah. And you said he's one of the favorite people. Your favorite people. I'm like, that's super cool.

One of the smartest SEO marketers I've ever met, because he builds things step by step. He says, let's do this today because it's going to have a result tomorrow, and it's going to be a small result, but at least it's a result. And he builds things step by step in a very intentional manner that I immensely appreciate. And when I talk to him, he always talks sense.

That's true. It's true. It's very practical. That's why I've had him on so many times, because things change. And we're probably due for another one after. After you. And of course, Gert, if you're listening, I'll make sure you hear this. Obviously, Jason says, hi, I'd appreciate you, but I mentioned that because it's been, you know, I'VE had them on a lot because people ask about SEO all the time and because it changes. And so I'm curious from your perspective, Jason, like, when was SEO? Like, not really. It's not enough anymore. Like, there had to be more behind just doing.

Never been enough. Ah. I built my company online. It was an edtech entertainment platform. We competed with Disney, with PBS.

We had a billion page views in 2007 from 60 million visits.

Wow. Holy moly. So people are sticking around on the site and.

But only 20% came from Google.

All of the rest came from the marketing, the branding that we were doing across different platforms. So I would suggest that Google is a bonus, ChatGPT is a bonus, and that you should be focusing on marketing to the people that you can truly help in the places where they already hang out. In my case, it was kids entertainment.

Yeah.

It was schools, it was.

Cartoon websites, it was parenting websites, it was grandparent grandparenting websites, and it was babysitting websites. That was 80% of our traffic.

So referral traffic then? More or less, right?

Yeah. It was being in front of the right people in the right places, at the right time, in the right when you could actually offer the solution. And Google, the 20% of Google and search in general was a bonus. So if you look at it that way, you change your perspective and you say, well, I don't rely on Google. Google is simply an addition, it's an additional amplifier. And ChatGPT is exactly the same.

Yeah.

So look at it as an amplifier of what you should already be doing.

And you see that being the same kind of as time goes on in the future as well.

I would say it's even more the case now with the clo. The closed walled gardens is if you let them keep the user, they will keep the user. If you can get the user before the user even gets to them, you've won the game.

True, true, true. Do you feel like there's a time frame right now that we're kind of in this window in time?

Two years.

Two years. Why is this?

Because in two years time, the AI will already have all of the information it needs to serve the basic fundamental information funnel that we need as users. So let's take an example of Napoleon Bonaparte. I'm in France. It doesn't need new information about him.

Right.

So it doesn't go looking for information about him.

It's just going to be basically AI generated stuff of the knowledge that it already has about Napoleon. Yeah.

So if I write an article about Napoleon Bonaparte, I'm throwing my time down the down, down the toilet in terms of Google and Chat GPT and in two years time that is going to be true of every standard basic topic in the world.

Meaning basically all the information has been mined from what we know as humans or what has been published, I guess.

Right? Yeah, exactly. And so you're only in is up to date information. Football scores, great example and.

Information gaps.

Anything you can teach it that it didn't already know.

That's curiously. Yeah, information gaps like defining. So it's information that what we hold or maybe a perspective of something kind of recent, I guess define the information gaps and how that's an opportunity for us.

Well, data, numbers and super important. If I say I've got 9.4 billion data points in Calicube Pro and I can tell you that 30% of lawyers do not have a knowledge panel, that's new information it didn't have and it will be super enthusiastic. Got it. And then today, the 3 o' clock in the morning thing you were talking about and it's difficult to explain but I woke up and I thought, wow, okay, we're looking at algorithmic harmony.

I like that.

How do we create algorithmic harmony? We create a friction free situation for bots on our website and within our content generally. We create tasty content for algorithms that they want to use and we organize ourselves for the engines so that they can understand how to put all the pieces together. And it's a bit geeky and I'm sorry, I'm probably explaining it very badly, but it was literally last night that I thought of it. This is new information, this is a new perspective on something that everybody already knew.

Well, expand I love. For one, you got me with algorithmic harmony. I had to write that down because I'm like, that's interesting.

It's cool, isn't it?

It is so algorithmic harmony in your mind and this is what kept you awake probably or woke you up, is so you're reducing, reducing friction for what? All of the bots. So we're talking what, Google, AI, all the, you know, OpenAI, all the stuff that's basically looking for information. So you're making it easy for people, you're making it tasty and interesting for the bots to, you know, like.

No, the algorithms.

Yeah, for the algorithms, yep.

So the tasty part is algorithms is does the algorithm think that your content.

Is tasty and helpful and that would be what? Timely stuff. Right. The information gaps that you mentioned, does.

It serve the purpose of the need of the user. You need to make sure the content you're creating makes the algorithms think, yes, I can serve this to my user and it will be helpful to them. That's tasty. And then the organizing. Please go ahead because I'm interested in your perspective.

I thought you would be.

I mean this is like 18 hours old.

Right, I know. And just so everyone knows, that was 3:00am you're in France, I'm in San Diego, California. It's past 7:00pm Your time. So almost 7:30. So it's like you've been up for a while and you're still buzzing. So. But yeah, the third. So we talked about reducing friction for the bots. Tasty. Make it tasty for the algorithms and then organizing this so the engines understand how to put all the pieces together. Right. Like so how it shows up when people are actually searching for that need.

Yep, you've nailed it.

I'm gonna take on it.

That's it. Well, that's it.

Yeah.

So 18 hours old and it's all nailed now. Thank you very much, Joe, you very much.

I'm happy to introduce it. I gotta publish this before you go and. No, I know you're already writing something. Beat you to it. I don't think I will. But no, this is, I think that's a great overview and.

I guess now this leads me to. Because I want to get to knowledge panels and how that's important and it's been around, it's not like a new thing. But maybe we go back to that and kind of pause for a moment because I do want to get your perspective of what's happening right now in AI and how.

Yeah, just search is. It's similar but changing how we position ourselves.

But let's, you know, I want to, I want to tease that for a moment, go to knowledge panels because that's something that I know is very important. I want to, I want just quickly describe what they are, they've been around and then how, how they're changing.

A knowledge panel is Google's understanding of who you are.

So when it shows a knowledge panel it says, well, this is the person or the company and this is what I've understood about them and I am super confident. And it's a great KPI for algorithmic understanding.

That same algorithmic understanding applies to every single engine chat, GPT Perplexity, Microsoft, Copilot, Cord. If they understand who you are, they will represent you with that factual representation that you need for the bottom of fellow clients, prospects that you're getting. Yes. So the knowledge panel right now is a great KPI, because if Google understands you, the other AI probably understands you.

Too, because they're all looking at Google as that source of information, at least for now. But like you said, I mean, Google's been at it since you said, what, 97, 98.

I think they started in 96, but they incorporated in 98. So I use that date because it makes me look like I was there at the beginning. But that'd actually be going two years before I started. I started SEO in the year Google was incorporated. Is better than I started SEO two years after Google started. I like.

It's all brandy and positioning, right?

Yep, Exactly.

Always.

It's what we call at Kalicube. Claim, frame, improve.

Claim, frame, improve.

So I claim 27 years. I frame it by saying same year Google was incorporated. That makes me look impressive. And then I prove it with links out to resources on the web that show that. So the framing is super important because the difference between I started in SEO the year Google was incorporated. Brilliant. Okay. Google, Jason, same date.

Yep.

I started SEO two years after Google started, actually, with their search engine. Jason was behind the time.

Right, Right. So you get immediate trust and you can prove it and. Yeah. And off you will. That's great. I mean, that's. That's a little nugget right there. Anyone could just take and use for their own business or whatever.

Yeah, the frame, the framing is super important. Claim whatever's true, whatever is true in your life is incredibly important. But how you frame it to serve your current purpose is fundamental to people and to algorithms.

I love that. And so the knowledge panel thing, it's interesting because, like, so everybody's looking at, you know, everybody meaning these. What? There's only like four or five big AI companies, really, you know, if you think about. And that's what's interesting. They're all racing to get all the information.

Okay.

Each other.

Go ahead, tell me which four or five you're thinking of.

Oh, I mean, there's probably more, but. Yeah, you have what Google, you have Microsoft, you have anthropic OpenAI. And I mean, you have. I mean, you have China and all these other. But I'd say what Amazon is probably coming up to.

No, I, I wasn't. I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

No, it's okay. It's okay.

But we actually had a situation where right now people are saying 60 to 80% of your traffic on your website is bots. Right.

And that dead Internet theory Or whatever.

Or. Yeah, and it's rubbish, of course.

Oh, is it?

Oh God. Oh yes.

Tell me, tell me, tell me. Because I'm curious because, yeah, it struck.

Me that that can't be true and the kind of subtlety there is. 60% of the files on your website are being taken by bots, but only 15% of the web pages that are digested are buying bots because they're taking lots of files that people never see. CSS, JavaScript, robots, TXT, the XML sitemap, so on and so forth. So if you remove all of that, the number of web pages that are being digested is, in our case at Kalicube, 15% because we're an incredibly popular bot friendly website. In your website might be 8%, it might be 6%, but be careful about getting caught out in this or the headline grabbing clickbait titles. Right?

So what if your expertise can work for you 24, 7, even while you sleep? So at AI Build Team, we create AI powered digital twins that clone your knowledge, your voice and even your style so you can scale without burning out. So imagine multiplying yourself, but without multiplying your time or your team's time. And the cool part is you don't have to imagine any of this. You can actually chat with my own AI twin right now. Just go over to AIBuildTeam AI Joe and you can see how it works for yourself. Again, that's AI buildteam AI Joe.

Hey, I wanna pause the episode really fast and shout out another podcast that's on the HubSpot podcast network, the audio destination for business professionals. The podcast is called this Old Marketing and it's hosted by Joe Pulizzi and Robert Rose. And these guys have been around for a while, very well known experts in content marketing. So if you want anything around content marketing and the trends and basically the rants and you know, it just brings in a lot of the tactical but really fun conversations. They're not more than an hour long. So you'll be able to jump in there, get some actionable stuff for your content marketing and then jump right out and then go do some stuff with it. So I highly recommend to go listen to the old marketing wherever you get your podcast and go enjoy it.

Bots are crawling your website and they are doing a lot and TikTok is a huge consumer. Really? You said China. It's TikTok.

It's TikTok. Yeah, yeah.

I don't know what they're doing. I don't have an insight into why but they crawl as much as, if not more than, Google and Bing.

TikTok. I did not know that.

Nuts, isn't that?

So is that just to beef up their own internal search algorithm? Right. It's got to be.

Maybe they're feeding Baidu. Maybe they're. They have a plan for the future. Maybe they're going to take over the world. I don't know. But definitely there is. They're huge consumers.

Got it. I didn't know that. Learned something.

Amazon are a huge consumer. Meta are a huge consumer.

I missed that. So that might be the sixth or seventh then. Yeah, that's true. Good call.

And we found a bot called Petalbot.

Petalbot, I haven't heard of that.

No, no, me neither. I've got no idea what they do, but they're terribly enthusiastic and I mean.

I'm curious of your thoughts, but now with agents or bots, everybody can vibe code or do something. I mean, the information is literally out there to anyone in the world. You know, the power of AI OpenAI. Literally. So who knows what's getting developed? I mean, yeah, right now we have these ones that are really backed by either a bunch of investors or nations, and both. But then you have all these independent players who are spinning up things that are also competing in their own thing, right?

Yeah. And Petalbot are doing something. TikTok are doing something, but I don't really know what.

And we'll see. But it's super, super intriguing.

And I take it as it's probably intriguing, at least to me is like, well, this is even more of a reason to at least show up in the way that I want to get showed up to or shown to my best potential customers or whoever, subscriber viewers, whatever your KPI or your conversion point is.

Right, right. And a really important point to make is that googlebot and Bing Bot have been incredibly kind to us over the years. Have they really, though they render JavaScript, they try to figure out what your website looks like when the JavaScript triggers, they try not to overload your server, they try to chunk down your content, they make enormous efforts. TikTok, OpenAI, Meta, Amazon literally don't make any effort at all.

So they're literally like bogging down our own systems because they're trying to take.

Yeah. And Perplexed have been caught not respecting instructions saying, don't crawl this part. Oh, wow. So it's now turned into the Wild west and we've been spoiled by Google and Bing and we need to learn now that Perplexity will break the rules, TikTok will crawl you massively and they don't care about the fact that your server is about to crash and that your users are not getting a great experience. Amazon the same, meta the same. So we're in a situation now where you're saying, well, we actually need to think about this. It's not so much am I sharing my information which you want to do. If you want to be present in these AI assistive engines, it's do I have the resources and can I afford it?

Is there anything we can do to prevent or optimize what we're doing so they're not going to take us down and ruin the experience for everybody else?

Well, if you want to take control, go through Cloudflare, they have bot detectors and you can actually exclude bots. And so if you're saying, well, I don't want TikTok, exclude it. Okay, and that's a really neat trick. So it's basically just setting your website up so that every request comes through Cloudflare and then you can control it.

Yeah, it's Cloudflare first and then it goes to your domain.

Right.

And then host and whatnot.

Exactly. And so you take control and then you just need to be careful. It is that, for example, USA Today is saying, nobody can take our content because we want people to come to our website. We don't want Google OpenAI being perplexity Claude stealing our content. That's fine. But then you have to accept that they're not going to send you traffic.

Or you're probably not going to show up in some of these AI search. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Yeah. It's a paradigm that, like, you know, even with TikTok or, or the other bots, you're like, maybe it's a good thing in the future. I don't know. Do I exclude them? Do I not?

Well, it's a huge bet that we're all taking. If you're a publisher, you're saying, well, I make my money from my content, therefore I can't give it to the bots. But you're cutting off a source of traffic and revenue.

Right.

If you're a business, B2B B2C, you want the boss to send the people to you, and you need to understand that they will only send them to you when the person has made the decision at the perfect click.

Right. And you're showing up in the right way.

To the right. Exactly. So you end up at. It's a debate in our own Heads. And it's a debate that we've never had to have before. And I would advise every business owner to look at it from their own perspective. What makes sense to me?

Well, it's a business model thing, Right. Or maybe there's a shift in the model that we get to take now because of the shifts happening with kalicube.

We're a B2B service. We help entrepreneurs and their companies turn up in Google and AI. We want these bots to build the funnel in their brains and bring people to us. And we're actively building that. But if I were a publisher who was publishing news.

I would be struggling with, do I want to share my content with them where they will give the answer on their own walled garden? And if I do that, will I lose all the people who come to me and I make my money out of subscriptions or advertising advertisements, but if I don't, I lose all that traffic. I have to find another source, Right? That's a huge, huge question and I don't have the answer right.

I mean, I don't think anybody has a perfect answer right now, but we're definitely. I think it's good thought experiments looking at what maybe has happened in the past. Even though this is totally new, I.

Would advise anybody who is implementing SEO strategies to sit down and ask themselves the fundamental questions of where do I get my money from? And talk to somebody smart like myself, for example, about how do I avoid leaking.

And maximize the actual kind of income.

I think it's very smart. And yeah, we, I mean, there's so many indicators that say, yeah, two to three years in this kind of time span. I mean, who knows what the world's going to be like. There will be, you know, it's, it's going to change fast. It's rapidly. You know, you have things like agents popping up that, that will be completely changed now.

And that's 100%. It is. It's all going to be brand. And you mentioned agents and I literally just wrote an article about that. Yeah. Is AI assistive engines Today is a discussion. It's a funnel that I'm having with.

My.

AI assistive engine, be it Google, AI mode, ChatGPT, Perplexity and so on and so forth. But in the near future, it's going to be AI agents who do that funnel multiple times for each task.

Yes.

And they make the decision and I don't know about it.

So we need to show up in the right way to those machines too. Not only. I mean, right now, it's the people primarily making the choice.

And in a few years time it's going to be the machine makes the choice multiple times.

Right.

So your audience is the machine. Because the audience that you're actually trying to reach are just going to say, well, I got the plane ticket, I got the hotel booked.

Right.

I bought the microphone from Thoman, which is something I did last week.

Yeah.

But I had nothing to do with the actual multiple decision processes that the agent went through. So AI agent optimization.

Is going to be a thing.

Gotcha.

This is fascinating, Jason. Okay, Knowledge Panel. I just want to close the loop there because.

Oh, right, you like your Knowledge Panel.

I do, because I feel like I think it's you. And also, you know our mutual buddy, my business partner, Scott Duffy.

Yeah.

You know, I know he's worked with you for a long time now, you know, building that up. Five years. There you go. So obviously, and it's working for him. Where do people start from the Knowledge Panel? Because it seems like that is kind of right. I don't know, it seems like that's the core or the most leveraged piece right now. Obviously there's more to it.

Well, if you look at the Knowledge Panel as the KPI of understandability, then you're in a really good place. Because whether it's a Knowledge Panel or it's ChatGPT or it's perplexity, these algorithms need to understand who you are, what you do, who you serve. If they don't understand that, they can't trust you.

So you're right. That's the foundation. The Knowledge Panel is the KPI of do the machines understand you? And the really simple approach to that is say, okay, right, I have an about page on my website that describes who I say I am, who I serve and why I'm credible.

Then from that page I need to link out to the resources that confirm what I'm saying, and I need to get them to link back to me, confirming that it is indeed me. And then you end up with what we call the infinite loop of self corroboration. Where the machine comes to, your website, says, okay, this is what Joe Feyer says about him. This is what Medium says about him. This is what this article says about him, this is what Twitter says about him, this is what LinkedIn says about him. And it all maps out. I understand that. I'm confident, I'll give him a Knowledge Panel. That's the KPI, that's understandability.

So you're putting signals out there. They're all kind of Saying the same thing so it gets a picture of you. You are. Yeah, on the about page. Like you said, it was like creating this web or this journey for these bots to go on. Right. Kind of are saying the same thing.

No, I love that it's a journey and it's a very repetitive journey. It's the algorithm understands by repetition and repetition by trustworthy sources. But you have to remember that the go to source is always you. And if that's not the case, you've lost the game because you have no control.

Yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of control, I'm thinking of websites now. And you know, because you're talking about, well, about page structure of your own website, obviously now you're talking about other platforms as well, that your name shows up on. What is one simple fix that someone can make on their website today that makes it easier for Google, but also AI to better understand.

Well.

Sorry, you said the about page and that's exactly it.

That might be it, yeah.

So the Calicube process, which is the system we use, is understandability, credibility, deliverability.

If it doesn't understand who you are, it can't trust you. If it doesn't trust you, it will never deliver you. So you need to start with understandability. And understandability is that about page on your website that says, this is who I am, this is who I serve, and this is why I'm credible.

So that's the first place to start.

That's it. Now, I love it. Yeah. And there's more to it, but yeah, that's great. Thank you, Jason. That's.

But it's actually really simple and it's one of those moments in life where you say, well, actually, I can explain to the baker downstairs and she understands it in five minutes.

Create the single source, source of truth, which is you.

Make sure that every single source about you around the web corroborates what you're saying. Link out to it, the machine goes backwards and forwards and it keeps seeing the same message and you've won the game.

I like it. I mean, logically, it's all there, but like you said, it's a process. I mean, Gert would. That's why Geert Malik, when he talks about things, he's got his process.

And I know you, so it's. I'm really excited because I know personally, I'm going to start the journey with Calicube and with you and your team. You know, Scott and my team are also. We're all working together, so it's. Yeah, pretty awesome.

I think the important thing is, is what you focused on. You keep talking about the knowledge panel and you know, I've been doing this so long I'm a bit or knowledge panel bit though. But it is the foundation of everything.

If the machine doesn't understand who you are, you have no hope. You're not even in the game.

Yeah.

So if you don't have the knowledge panel on Google, you're not going to be playing the game in Google, in Bing, in Claude, in ChatGPT. And that's your foundation. You need to start there. And it starts with the entity home, which is the about page on your website and the corroboration around the web with links that make sure the machine goes through that infinite loop of self corroboration. And when I say it like that, it sounds very simple. Managing it is quite difficult.

Yeah.

Because as human beings we're a bit messy. But that's where you start and you can DIY it.

That's great. So if they don't want to DIY it or if they want to learn more, where do they go and find you, Jason?

Well, if you want to DIY it, you go here. Kalicube.com guides and if you don't.

Reach out to me, I'd be happy to help. Awesome.

Yeah, we'll put everything in the show notes, link it up and all that. Make it easy. So, last question, Jason. I'm always curious of, and we've kind of talked about it, but like the next handful of years, like what's the, what's the thing you're most excited about? I mean you've been excited, you've been on fire all day long today. I know, I'm curious. Like with you, I mean, what you said, you said there's two years of this. Like does that mean that you're out of a job, Jason, in two years or is like.

No. Ah, I love the question. There are, there are a few things that are going to remain in place is my life is going to change and the algorithms know that. But if they don't recognize me before that two year window, they won't come looking.

I have to make myself. You have to make yourself sufficiently important to the machines that they come looking three years from now.

That's the key focus. And anybody who's missed that boat is going to be really struggling. So you need to in the next two years make sure that you become sufficiently important within your niche for the machines to proactively come looking for information about you.

That's it. All Right, y'.

All.

You know that. You know the procedure. Go do it. Go do some stuff. Definitely go follow Jason, what he's doing. I mean, this is. It's very timely stuff. That's why we. We're talking now. And, yeah, next few years is going to be interesting next. I mean, who knows what the future's like?

It's nuts, isn't it?

I'm just happy we're here, we're alive, and we're experiencing it because.

Absolutely. Thank you.

All right, Jason, I appreciate you. Was this a good, like, cap to the day? I know it started very early for.

You, but, yeah, it's absolutely the perfect end to a day where I started the day just going, oh, wow, this is all brilliant and wonderful and delightful, and I'm thinking it all through. But the foundation is always, does the machine understand who you are, what you offer, and to whom? Does it believe you to be credible as a solution to the subset of its users who are your audience, and does it have the content to be able to deliver you to those people for whom you have the perfect solution?

That's it. Yeah, Perfect. All right, Jason, go get some rest. You've been. You've been at it all day long. Thanks for hanging out late with me. So till next time, we'll do it again soon.

Bye.

Sam.