How to Build Products People Actually Love: The Secrets Behind Lasting Tech with Oji Udezue & Ezinne Udezue

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OG ez, I love to have that you're both here and this is, it's honestly just gonna make it even better. So you are a power duo, but you're more than that too. I mean you guys have individually, I mean I can't even list all the backgrounds. So like everyone do your independent research. But let's talk about it. You both come from incredible backgrounds with large companies, companies like Twitter, Typeform, T Mobile and I'm kind of blending both of your sides here. Procore Construction. I mean there's, because I know there's construction folks listening, there's tech people listening. The fact is you guys have great perspective of businesses who have done amazing things, have exited, scaled people and like leading on the tech. And I think that's kind of fast. That's really fascinating in this world of AI and all the tools that everybody's experiencing in this next wave that's happening. So I guess I'll start with thanking you. And how are you guys Doing? How are you feeling with where we're at in the world? Everything's so fast, but like, how are you feeling about it? Are you like jazzed up for it? Opportunities?

I mean, I'm excited. I think that there is so much change happening Breck next speed. It is dizzying, but I love roller coasters anyway, so this just works for me.

Yeah, I, I feel lucky that I've been in the tech space for quite a while, so I'm able to look behind and see, think about what happened in the past and try and get some learnings from that. So. Really excited about it. Actually.

No, no, I, I feel the same way. This is. It feels like a Gold rush time and it is, but I think they have negative and positive versions of that gold rush. But I think the thing that your listeners should understand is that this is a time of great opportunity. Like when Bill Gates discovered computing in the 75 to 80 83, when I started Microsoft was a time of great opportunity. Silicon chips had just come out and the world was going to change. And he saw it. A lot of people did not. Okay. And then when the Internet, which Bill Gates did not shepherd came out, I like to say the Internet dropped. When the Internet dropped, there was a time of great opportunity. And we've made trillions, you know, like 10 trillion bucks from that. Right. And the earlier thing. And so this is the same time. And so patient builders, ingenious builders.

Are going to change the world. I want to talk about money because they will make money and lose money, just to be clear. But we're very excited about that. Big level thinking, but also just the details. What is the life of a startup guy? What is the life of a startup marketer? What is the life of an investor? All those things are going to change. And these are some of the things that we've been thinking about and we've been living.

Yeah, you've definitely lived it through your own individual journeys. Of course. I'm sure you share a lot of the inside scoop and, and obviously you wrote a book about it as well, so we'll talk about that. And. But I mean, you said it's, it's great opportunity. I mean, I just came back, I told you, I came back from Cisco Live where that's all their keynotes, where we're interviewing some of the top execs. And, and I'm like, everybody is. Just has the same mindset, like they're an AI forward company and. But you said patient builders because. And I'm curious, what do you mean by. By that og.

There's a lot of our industry that is.

Trend focused. Right. Someone builds a calendar. You want to know how many people who are building a calendly beater have come to me to consult with them? So people chase trends. Originality isn't like a premium in industry. Actually even investing. You know, like you see something that works and you want to, you know, invest in that Facebook. And before you know it, you know, people start chasing failed social media startups. My point is that people who tap into.

Perennial needs and workflows, like there's some. There's an undercurrent of value that is the same from generation to generation. Even when the technology level changes. Like for example, on the consumer side, we know that dating is always going to make money if you're in genius at it. Right. Everything from plenty of fish to tinder. Right. We know that gambling, I don't want to say this, but there are all kinds of things, sports and so on, that is. That are always good. But the technology changes and the wage, it comes out changes. But also in B2B people always going to want to sell stuff. People are always going to marketing people always going to want to crunch the numbers and do data analysis. But the things that we built 10 years ago, 15 are not going to cut it anymore. And they're going to be different because we just got a brand new tool that's going to make all the things easier. So patient builders are people who try to find sharp problems that are deep. We've had for a very long time. Right. You know, Microsoft offices, writing 50,000 years, math and accounting 50,000 years.

True. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like email is communication is smoke signals. And so like patient builders are people who plumb deep needs and then find ways to express them in new ways that match the next level of technology and convenience. That's what I mean.

That's a great way to put it that it's. Yeah. They're deep needs expressed in different ways. It's sharp problems, like you said, the ones that will always be around. But they're almost like shape shifting in these different forms.

Yes. The technology shifts around the need.

What do you think doesn't shift in all of this?

Let's put it this way. There's something a thesis we have is a great replacement. Like everything you're using today will not be the same in 10 years.

Yeah.

Like they have been the same for 10 years roughly. They will not be the same. They will all be replaced. The only question is, are the people who make them today going to be the ones who make the new thing or is it going to be a new startup and the thing that doesn't change is like, sorry, I don't want to get existential. Isn't.

It's okay. I love that she'll accuse me.

I'm not being practical. But.

We'Re all mammals, you know what I mean? Like we need to socialize.

We.

There are some things that are, you know, we thought Twitter would change the world, but it turned out that people just found their tribe on Twitter and just stuck with it. And having conversations, sort of in a pub, they just happen on Twitter. So that's what I mean. Some things that change because they're rooted in human nature.

So what? Some other things. No, I'll just add to that some of the things that don't change. Like you said, the need is the need. It's a perennial need. It's an underlying need. Whether it's these to C or individual or B2B. The second I would say is return on investment, right? The people who are paying attention to their, how their investment is being used and shaped are the ones who will win. And I say this because we find people who build like, you know, everything is fast, everything is happening quickly. And some people rush and in that rushing, they're not thinking about the math in, in the end. And they're always going to be analogies to currency, right? Back in the day in the social media world, it was followers, right? Followership, then influencers and the, you know, that became currency in some way. Building a social network became more important, eyeballs became more important. So there is always an analogy to currency in some way. So I think that it just being able to pay attention to perennial need, really paying attention to a return on capital that always will matter, period. Because you have to pay for the future. And then what is your analogy for currency? What is your analogy for profitability? What is your analogy for growth? Because there always is one in this day and time. So I haven't figured out what it is in an AI world, but with every new technology there often is something. So just paying attention to what that analogy could be.

Technology companies are, we build stuff that make people either useful or happy, right? So that doesn't change like founders and product managers and product marketers and investors. It's really about build something. And I love the way like some of these really like early stage people talk about it. You build something that people love that is really useful, that solves a short problem for them that's one dimension and the second one is you build a business model that makes you money from that.

Software works really well because the marginal cost of production is zero. And so if you hit a certain number of customers, you make money and a lot of it. So you make them happy, you solve the real thing and then you design a business model that's really efficient. And I think those won't change.

Awesome answers by the way. I love how you started with the existential, which I love, all the way into this profound shift to practicality. Yeah, let's make it a little bit more practical because you're all about like, well, how does someone like a startup? I mean, and let's be honest, like even if someone hasn't run a startup before and they're listening, watching, they have some existing business, they probably see maybe a short problem that they want to solve in their vertical. So maybe they do the vibe coding thing or maybe they just hire someone. Yeah. Or maybe they're just trying to figure out what the, what the product market fit is, you know, just like. But how to test it at it at the smallest possible level. Like how do you get someone. I guess, how do you navigate this and how would you advise someone in that, in that phase?

The way this works is our industry has actually pissed away a lot of money based on the passions of founders. Like founders wake up one morning and they obsessed with one thing that they think should change in the world, the thing that we wish because we spent so many hours talking to them. And actually I've been a founder, so I've made this mistake, so I've lived it. The thing you should check to see is is this a sharp problem to anybody else? Is it a sharp problem to 10 people, to 20 people, to a million people? Because that's what really matters. It's not about an expression of your need and your ingenuity that you're bringing to market. That's, that's sort of the old way. It's really customer satisfaction. We should be thinking like, you know, like Procter and Gamble, they don't make a Swiffer until they know that a million people are going to buy a Swiffer, if that makes sense. So it's like think about the problems of other people, not so much your problem. And then think about where you have insight so that you can inject passion and stick to itiveness when you're building that startup. When Jeff Bezos built Amazon, he built a shopping mart, right. He built a shopping male. I don't even Know, if he was passionate about it, I think he was passionate not just about building a shopping mall, but building something that was more accessible to people and just getting out of their car and driving somewhere else versus the problem itself is like, look, this has to transform. I'm the transformed guy of this market. And so I think you start out by really figuring out, is this a problem that a lot of people feel deeply? And then the second thing is you ask yourself, what would a transformation of that look like? And then you build a simple, lovable, but complete version of that and put it in front of customers. Sometimes that will take you three months. If it's a very common problem, it might take you two years. Because the level, you know, when I say MVP minimum, viable minimum for a, a big need is very high because all there's a lot of products in the market. That's right. And so you some like Figma famously built for two years because the viable was super high because of Adobe. Right. And so viable took a long time. So you just have to figure out what that is. The simplest, most.

Cogent, attention grabbing version of something you can put out. And it's a variable time. We want to keep it as short as possible, but it's not always possible to make it in two weeks or whatever.

Yeah. And that's where I think these vibe coders and all that. Or you know, like, because everybody has access to cursor now, not to.

Yeah, it's like, yeah, I actually think this is an amazing time for that founder you're referring to who is trying to figure out, okay, I found a sharp problem, how do I move on? Because I remember the days I ran around innovation or whatever it is, startup inside a company. Right. And the biggest thing was the time it took to create a prototype. Right. So right now I think the biggest challenge most founders will find after they've done everything says find the sharp problem, really think there is. How do you get access to people so that you can actually test that? That is actually the bigger problem now because prototyping should be easy. Wizard of Oz is all the things you can literally use, Cursor, lovable, all those things to build something that is workable. So it's actually a really, really interesting time. So it's one of those get off your butt and just do it. But the hardest part I remember was, you know, having to log into Craigslist and incentivize people to show up and use, and use my product so that, you know, to test whether it works or doesn't. Work, but that gaining access so that people could actually play around with that product and give you feedback is actually the more challenging piece now than ever before. Before it was actually writing the code, building the software, no vibe coding is making that much easier. So it's how do you get people and get real feedback? Because they can actually use your work now. So that's an interesting challenge. So for founders listening, it really is more about access to humans and humans who will tell you the truth.

That's a good point. Yeah. So are you saying trusted people, people maybe that you hire, bring on your team and also people that give you feedback and tell you no.

No. So the thing is research. Research target. Like, one of the things that people do is like they'll build something and they'll put it out in the world and they'll get mixed feedback. Well, you should always filter your mixed feedback by your target customer. So one of the things you should do is any problem, sharp or not, has a profile, a very narrow profile initially that respond to it. Not everybody. Right. So sharp problems also attach to narrow target customers. So find 100 of them who will experience what you, you're doing for free or for pedo. Doesn't matter what it is. It depends on what you're testing. But target them. And I think what isn't they saying is that the build part is easier now. The build part is super fast. Now, like, we met a team in Ukraine who, after you get off the phone and tell them about your problem, they'll crank out the prototype in four hours.

That's great. But that shows the world we're in. Yeah, yeah.

But if you then get the product, what do you do with it? Well, expose it to customers as soon as possible, low stakes, beta, whatever you want to call it, and start to learn. Right. Is that learning process that makes you a viable startup.

It's incredible. And I think that should be the shift that people are hearing right now is like, okay, the creation piece is. And you can of course get someone else to do that. And I'm going to pause this really fast and shout out a podcast that you should go follow. It's called the Science of Scaling. It's hosted by Mark Roberge and it's brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Now, the reason why I like this show is that each week Mark Roberge, the host, sits down with leaders in business and talks about scaling properly. So I like Mark because he is in the trenches. He is the founding CRO of HubSpot Senior lecturer at Harvard Business School. He's a co founder of Stage 2 Capital. And he's diving into the secrets, the strategies, all these tactics of how to properly grow with people that are doing it right now. What I found is most companies, when they're growing, they either do the wrong things to grow or they do the right things in the wrong order. And that's what I gathered from these episodes. So it's a great way to straighten all that up. So go listen to Science of Scaling wherever you get your podcasts. Too many business owners hit a ceiling because they can't clone themselves. That's exactly what we do at AI Build Team. We build AI digital twins, which are basically smart clones of you that know your expertise, they sound like you, and they help scale your reach to a bigger audience. So instead of repeating yourself or even missing opportunities, your AI twin becomes your always on educator, salesperson, even content creator, and a ton more. If you want to see this in action, go to AI Build Team, AI slash Joe. You can chat with my twin right now. Again, that is a build team.AI/joe. Like how would you, would you suggest most people? Because it's very simple to get distracted and start going down the lovable train or, you know, cursor. But like as a, as a founder, and obviously you guys are investing in these as well with your fund, right? So like how do you advise someone to maybe work with people to help them out? Because I know that's a big, that's a challenge right now to find folks that can think in this way and also you can trust. I know it's kind of loaded, but where do you start there?

One of the underestimated parts of building is like.

Just building like before it was. Most founders don't have coding skills. And so you have to find a team or at least one person, cto, whatever. And you call it a co founder now you can just start building it yourself. Now, honestly, I'll tell you, my synthesis based on looking at all these tools is that it's actually difficult to build something customer ready with lovable and so on and so forth. It's harder than people think because what happens is you have to be smart enough to think through all the human parts of this, not just throw up some code. Like, does it feel good? Does this journey hang together and very People aren't trained. Some people go to college for this stuff. Does it hang together because you can throw up something simple, but something that people will use for a day, two days, and be happy that's not trivial, but that's getting easier. Regard. I noticed how hard it is. It used to be super hard. You used to have two developers you work with for two months, three months, six months. Now you can put together a prototype yourself, which is actually a very good prd, the prototype itself, to work with professional developers who you get online immediately. And then the thing that happens is you throw it to the first customer, they love it, but it's basic and they're like, change this and change that. If you're not smart enough to vibe code the changes, then you're stuck. Does that make sense?

Start by yourself, but don't think that you can go the distance by yourself unless you're a professional. There are lots of developers who build like single one man SaaS, because they can, they're trained. But if you're not, start by yourself, but very quickly, hire people who can't continue, who are pro or semi pro. Because the part of building a software company, like we said, is listening to customer feedback and adjusting to it. And a lot of people just like, can't do that. Just with Vibe coding, your customer says, do this feature and then you're stuck.

Back in the day, you'd write a product requirement document. It's a physical document. Back then you'd have v1, then you'd have v2, then v3. By the time the product was launching, you're probably at V100 and something and you were changing words on a page because you learned more. You learned what the requirement was, you learned what was optional, you learned what the software developer had to do and what could be done. Right? So that's back in the day. Right now, to Ajay's point, it's important that founders just vibe code, build that prototype, but not get stuck and in love with the software on the page, right? They need to do V2 and they can start over again. Because with V1, your goal was not necessarily to have it working in the user's hand, was to learn. Then V2, you learn again, throw away the other code, build it again, V4, learn again. And if you think of it that way, by the time you're building your V10, you have more information of what to give the coding team you're bringing on, right? But if you think of the software as precious, you're going to get stuck. But if you use it more as a learning tool, a prototype, your product requirement document that is being revised each time, and I think you have it. This is, I was just talking to some product person I mentor. And this is literally what I was just saying to her. This is how you need to think about it. It's there for you to learn.

At Product Mind, we believe that PRDs are going the way of the dodo. Right. A PRD is going to be an app because here's how it works. You write a prd, you sit in a meeting with a bunch of developers, you try to get them to see your vision and then they write something and they tell you, is it what you want? Is it what you want? And then you do another PRD and you have another meeting, blah, blah, blah. No, you, the founder, you write the app. Well, don't think about this as a final app. It's an avatar of your final app. It embodies your vision. You hand it off, the developer doesn't need to read a document, they can see it, they can read the code and then you can keep revising until you get an application that customers love.

And they'll know how to make it secure, they'll know how to make it scalable, they'll know where the dead ends are and that is where they come in to actually finesse it and make it beautiful. But at least you've given them that avatar. So think of that. Just run with it and just make your versions to learn. Put it in your customers hands and just have them learn and it's okay to trash it. Take your learnings, take that, put it into the new prompt. Right?

Yeah.

And start over. There's nothing there. You didn't write that those lines of code. So don't be precious about it.

Well, we're working on a project now where we are on the 20 of the app we're building.

Yeah. And that's all through, no code, all this stuff, the vibe.

Yeah. We use a mix of things like Vercel and so on. But at Phalanx we a studio. So we invest but we also build if that makes sense.

A few people building little things to test and try.

So yeah, I love it. I mean would you suggest most people get familiar with these kind of apps just to see what's possible.

Like have you seen 100% like you should be. If you're a builder, you should be living in these apps. They should be your best friend.

Cool.

And you mentioned Lovable Cursor. Do you have all these other.

So Vercel, Lovable Cursor. They also design tools on that side. There are website creation tools for marketing applications. Whatever is speeding up development by 10x you should be using I Love it.

I think your analogy to creating an avatar, it's just like a customer avatar. There's psychographics, demographics, all these different qualities of that thing. And it's just a snapshot of that. That person. But like, that might even change with more data and input coming in.

100%. 100%. Everything is the, you know, the prototype, the vibe coded thing is a representation of an early. That's how you go from a garden shack to the Empire State Building. Well, you remember that not everyone matters initially. Only the people you identify who actually need experience in this problem, not the entire world. Those are the people that matter and target them with that thing.

I actually want to underscore this. This is something I learned working with techstars and all the founders there. It's really important that people listening know that when you do put your product. Audrey said this earlier, but I need to. On this part, when you put your product out there, you will get feedback, right? If you get 10 people. But really pay attention and give weight to what we call the ideal customer profile. Like, you really need to understand who is this thing for and give weight to that. So even if you've heard from 10 people, four may be the only ones that actually truly matter because that's who you're targeting first. You want them to be your early adopters. You're shaping the product around them. So that's something I noticed that folks that I talk to often haven't learned and is worth underscoring.

That's a very good underscore. I think you're going to save a lot of people a lot of time, I hope, and money, you know, and. And like you said, it's a gold rush right now, but it's for the patient builders. I know it's for the focus as well. Like, I've heard a lot of people say that. Like, if you just focus in on whatever that sharp problem is that you're trying to solve, obviously with feedback, just remember, like, we're in a noisy world that moves super fast and we think that social media is distracting. I mean, just getting into cursor lovable, then you're gonna, like, you never know. And then think of that, oh, what's the other new tool I should try? It's like, hold on, 100.

I remember.

Yeah, yeah.

I remember when MCPS came out and everyone was like, oh, you know, I can do everything. Yeah, yeah, every. I would now ignore rest APIs and do MCPs forever. No, no, not necessarily.

If you don't know what that means. Y' all go listen to some YouTube videos, hire someone.

Either way. Oh, what? I kind of want to wrap it up on this, but talk to me about a product system and how you guys approach that because, you know, maybe, maybe you nail it on a. On the first version or single feature, but how do you keep that going and how do you create a system out of it that's sustainable?

So let me, let me offer like a high level definition. RG is really good at like, like giving good summaries and succinct sound bites, so I'll let him end with it, but good. First off, a product system is actually refers to the things that are happening within your organization, right? The different systems that actually interoperate that are present, whether or not you're paying attention to them, that lead to the products you build. And when we talk about a product system, we're actually talking about three core things. No matter what. In any company, even as a little startup, there's a way in which your people interact with each other, right? There's a way in which. So we call that a system of people. There's also a way in which you are finding strategic direction, how you're making decisions, how you're prioritizing, and that we call holistically a strategy or wayfinding. Right? What decisions matter there? But what's most important, that's what we call strategy. There's a system of that. Then there's also a system of execution. Who does what? How do they do it? How does it ladder up into the. What tools are we using? Where do we reference our code? Is it PRDs versus prototypes? How do they work together? That's what we call a system execution. That is what a product system is really about. Whether or not you have sat down and thought about it that way, they exist. When we name a product operating system, we are actually asking you to be intentional about how those two things interact with each other. Three things and how they. How those three things interact with each other and how they lead to repeatability and scale over time. So that's really what it really is about. Andre, you want to layer in and bring it all on.

I think you. I think you. I think you nailed it. There are three, four. Think about. Let's talk about the int. Let's use physics as a metaphor. Yeah. There are three major forces acting on a startup or any technological company, right? People.

How you find direction and how you execute.

Whether or not you realize that those forces are acting on your startup, they're acting on your company. Even if Google, right? There's a reason people fret about the direction of Google. They didn't miss something. It's the same thing.

And what we try to teach people is to make those things, not.

To make them more intentional. And we teach people how to interact for those three things. They interact how they can do ballet together to make sure that you have an innovation engine that is humming all the time. If you have one or two of those things or none of those things, you will eventually stutter. I was at Microsoft when we were stuttering during the bomber years and I saw this happen. I built a startup and it's the same principle. In the book we talk a lot about how to optimize the interaction between those three so that you're not a one hit wonder. You can innovate all the time because when you do it, your organization actually produces new ideas.

Because it's intentional, right?

Yes, it's intentional.

If you think about people, right, you see a founder and employee tension because there isn't this clarity on. Let's move to the decision making piece. Like what is most important? So you sometimes you'll see that tension, but that tension happens not necessarily because they're individuals and butting heads, it's because there probably hasn't been an intentional conversation of their way. Finding what is the most important thing, what are we prioritizing? So that is where the intersection of strategy and people, right? That's that interaction having a very clear conversation of are we fighting for our lives? Is the mean, is money the most important thing or is long term strategy important? And without that being said and discussed and like on the table, then you see this tension occurring, right? So it's just when we watch our different companies that we invest in or advise, we see these forces at play and being able to design them with core intention. Like, okay, who are the people who are decision makers? Who are the people who take from the decision makers and execute? Having clarity there. Then figuring out what is the most important thing we're doing. Is long term strategy more important than short term? What is our mix of investments? Having clarity there and then also looking at what are the tools we use, where can I find these decisions that have been made? Right. So all those things are important and you need to be working on them and figuring out how they work, they interact. Sorry, we've said the same thing a few times, but we're trying to. I was trying to give an example.

You're driving it home and it's necessary because this is again, it's being intentional in the early phases. Right. And not just letting it happen at whatever whim it's going to happen.

People think that effort and having fun produces good outcomes. But I think what we want people understand is that there's a hidden rhythm to this thing that they got to pay attention to. Regardless of your stage.

Right? Yeah, it's always happening. The people will be there. The way you find your strategy and the execution, how things get done, like.

Yeah.

And they evolve. Right. So always getting that feedback.

Oh yeah, we, we. Well in the book we talk a lot of. We actually reference stages a lot where like when you're a startup, here's the forces acting on you. When you're mid growth company, here's the forces acting on you and how they're different. And when you're bigger, here are the forces and how they act on you at that stage. So we actually. Very descriptive about it.

Yeah, no, it's great. So the book, we've mentioned the book by the book, but it's called Building Rocket Ships. Amazon actually where you guys tell me where, where can they find building rocket ships?

Right. So we wrote the book because we want the knowledge about how to build technology companies which is somehow still stuck in Silicon Valley and in Seattle and a few cities.

Yeah, yeah.

So we spread around the world. We want better products in the world and happier customers and rich founders. And so we built Building Rocket chips. You can find it on Amazon and every edition there is. I think we're going to work on the audio version of that and you on, on Shopify you can see the same additions, but there's an additional bonus. On Shopify you have the Pro edition. The Pro edition is a product in or itself. It is the book in digital form. You can also. You get the book, you get a digital form of the book and you get twice the book in practical templates you can share with your team to turn it into, you know, acceleration for your career. So Ezema worked really hard on that version and I'm so proud of it.

I love it.

So just to make it easy, we are at productmind co. Productmind Co. And if you do book or if you land on that page you'll see something that says get our book. That's the fastest way to get the Pro edition, which is the Kodo edition, which is interactive. I'm always looking at it and people always sending feedback or questions and we'll update. So it's a really interactive product as well. So if that's your jam, then Definitely.

Go to productmind.com you can also join the ProductMind community. We are curating a bunch of like builders and so that we can talk to and on on Slack. So the product mind community is also available for people to join just to talk about this stuff.

That's super helpful. I want more people with communities because again, we're mammals, right? Like we. We got to keep. That's not changing. We need to communicate. I talk about that all the time.

See? See, you're getting it. There are some perennial needs under always.

Well, this is why like the. The clonings are the digital twin. It's all just furthering communication and connection. That's how I see it. It's connection at scale. So like connection at scale. That's what fires me up. So I think we all have to take that into this new reality of AI being everywhere and you know, who knows what the world looks like in two years, you know, because hard to predict but okay. This is fascinating. I'm happy that we. So go get building rocket ships. Yeah. Go to. We'll link it all in the show notes. So productmind co doing all the things sub stack as well as an A OG it's been awesome. Thank you so much for your time. It was an honor. Get you both. It was great.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Joe. We had so much fun hanging out with you.

You're very welcome.

Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Yes.

Yeah. Sam.