How To Succeed As A Web3 Content Creator (Featuring Darren Glover)

This is an intro, intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float Shark with your boy.

My boy, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. Hey.

Hey. Welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. Today we've got Darren Glover on the show and Darren is the VP of Gaming over at VaynerMedia. He's the guy who's in charge of signing the gamers that are playing under, you know, Gary and AJ Vaynerchuk's company, VaynerMedia. So in this discussion, Kokomo and Buffalo are gonna chat with Darren all about esports, the intersection of blockchain and gaming, where esports are going, how NFTs are gonna work in esports, and also they really do a deep dive in what creators are doing right and what creators are doing wrong right now. And he gives some advice to some of those creators out there that are making some big mistakes that they're gonna regret doing this when this bear market finally ends. So you're going to want to heed Darren's advice in this. This is an amazing episode that's gotten a lot of attention so far in video form over on the YouTube. So if you're not watching our YouTube yet, make sure you're subscribed to YouTube over at HustleandFlowchart TV. And if you're not already, make sure you're following us on Twitter. We are Hardfork gaming over on Twitter. And before I hand it over to Kokomo and Buffalo so they can chat with Darren, I gotta tell you about a sponsor. That's right. We've got a new sponsor and this one is a really, really good one. Today we're sponsored by Manscaped, who is the best in men's below the waist grooming. Their products are precision engineered tools for your family jewels. Manscaped performance package is the ultimate men's hygiene Bundle. Join over 6 million men worldwide who trust Manscaped with this exclusive offer to you. 20% off and free worldwide shipping with the code hustle@manscaped.com. if my math is correct, that's about 12 million balls. All right, let's go talk to Darren Glover of Vayner Gaming.

If I was on the elevator with you, we had 30 seconds. How would you break down what VaynerSports is?

We're a sports agency at our core. So we represent premier talent across the NFL, mlb, ufc, Nil, and esports and gaming. And then we have a consulting division that helps brands create marketing strategies aligned with their business objectives. Specifically inside of Sports Nil, which, which is the newest form of kind of sports marketing, being able to pay collegiate athletes and gaming. Right on.

Yeah, you cover a lot with VaynerSports and so I'm curious of the crossover of what you guys are doing with gaming specifically in web 3, because I know there's some crossover with what you're doing and you're working with Bryson who we've had on our channels before podcast. So yeah, chat a little bit about what you guys are doing in the vision of on the web three side of stuff with Vayner.

So when I joined two and a half years ago, I joined to start the vertical at vaynersports for gaming. It was going to be called Vayner Esports, but we called it gaming to include the larger industry of gaming or esports is a piece of it. But there's a larger format of gaming as a culture and a lifestyle. So when I joined it was right at the start of 2020, Bugha, who's the Fortnite World cup champion in 2019. For people that don't know who Bugha is or was, I'm biased. But I don't think I would argue until my face turns blue that Ninja and Bugha are in the history books. In 50 years, when you think about gaming and esports like they're going to have their own chapter where Booger transpired the esports industry from a holy shit moment that here's the 16 year old kid that's playing this cartoon game at Arthur ashe Stadium with 10 to 20,000 people there. He wins and he won't. He wins $3 million. Like this level of then going on to Good Morning America, going on to the Jimmy Fat like doing all of that. There's no esports athlete that has ever done that before. And I think that opened the eyes to mainstream culture which I would like to describe as like the people who watch Good Day America, whatever the hell those morning shows are and Jimmy Fallon, like that's mainstream America seeing this like really normal 16 year old kid that just won $3 million playing a video game. There's a lot of people that. Booger now became a household name due to what he was able to accomplish in esports. And then Ninja was able to accomplish even more from a monetary side of things of like the value of media behind people watching people play video games and the community that you can create by being a live streaming content creator playing video games. So like I see them as both like Booga is the legend of esports in the history books and then Ninja is kind of that Legendary figure for gaming as a form of community and entertainment. So when we signed Bugha at vaynersports and we started this gaming vertical, the idea of it originally was a little bit of like scaling this talent agency out with more talent. The business model of talent representation with esports athletes and, and gamers. It's not as milked in as what traditional sports is, where you've got middle school, high school, college and pros. And when you get to the pros, you understand that the ultimate payday is the contract with the organization. Marketing dollars are great. It helps build the brand, it helps build your community. There's all sorts of different value that comes with marketing dollars, but ultimately the value is you're there for two, three, four, five years depending on what league it is. And that second or third contract comes and you go from making three, $4 million a year to, to $30 million a year. That's how the agency really gets paid. On an esports side, that's not it. There's not million dollar contracts for the best players at Rocket League. That's not there. So a lot of those dollars from a revenue side for the business is made through marketing. But a lot of the top esports competitive players aren't content creators. So what does that mean? It means they don't have large social media followings. If you don't have large social media followings as a brand, what am I doing? What am I getting access to? Why am I giving this person a lot of money? So the business model is just goofy. And I saw that I was still trying to find. Now it's like the funnel of talent really becomes a lot smaller because now I'm trying to find really, really good, skilled, talented gamers who also have really, really vibrant communities and a large social media following. And there's not a lot of them out there. Then I didn't want to get into the idea of poaching different people like because I know their agents and managers and I didn't want to do that. So then this thing called COVID 19 hit and it was a pandemic. So it was okay that I wasn't signing people because everyone was just trying to figure out their life. But I got introduced to Web3 and NFTs through that midst with Gary V. Gary Vaynerchuk, who's our chairman of just this idea of here's this world where you get to own things on this new technology. And it was really interesting to me and I bought $100 of Bitcoin and Ethereum in 2018, just because it was the thing to do. But I didn't know anything about the technology. It was just fake digital money in the world that I knew nothing about. But now I was doing my 10,000 hours of research to really understand the technology behind it, not the product application built on top of it. And I was like, whoa, wait a second. At a very base level, when I started to learn about it, I was like, well, I'm a gamer and I spend thousands of dollars over the last few years buying cosmetic skins that I'm just renting on a centralized server in the middle of nowhere. That would be cool if I actually own those skins. And then there was a ebay marketplace that if there were only 10,000 of those skins in the world, I could go sell that skin for whatever the reason is. That'd be pretty cool. Like, very simple, practical sales pitch to get me interested in the Web3 gaming side. And Axie was obviously the most popular game. I got drug into this Axie wormhole and I was learning that's why I did it. And I found Bryson's content because he was the biggest Axie streamer. So I just reached out to him on Twitter and just wanted to connect because I wanted to learn about what he's up to. So that was like the summer of 2021, moving into the fall is when I reached out because I just wanted to learn more about breeding and guilds and tokenomics and all that stuff. I was just asking questions. That's just like my kind of innate personality. It's just like the guy that sometimes asks the stupid question, but in order to answer a stupid question, it has to be a stupid response, which is most likely the most valuable response, because you have to break down confusing topics and describe them in a simple way. So Bryce was able to do that for me in a way that was super helpful. And it was just like one day, kind of the light bulb came off as I was kind of giving an update on what we're doing in gaming. And there was a client that I didn't sign in traditional gaming. And they're like, well, who else are you looking at? And it was just like the light bulb went off of like, as Gary was launching veefriends. And veefriends was going crazy. And you could tell that Gary was. And AJ Everybody was just so passionate about this new industry, was like, well, who better to sign the largest creator in this industry than a Gary company? Like, it makes total sense. Why wouldn't we take the risk on the Largest creator in such a Fun category of Web3. And like, ultimately what sold me and everyone else is like the gaming industry is a bunch of white guys with brown hair that look like us, that play first person shooter games. Like that's it, like there and then a lot of the female creators, you know, like there's a few that are large, but I don't necessarily see a lot of them as gaming creators all the time. Like they're more influential that happen to play video games or they kind of transition into that. And there's no black people that play video games at a large scale, massive level. There's nothing. There's no one that looks like Bryce that's within the top 1% of Twitch, the top 5%, the top 10%. So being able to have at the early onset of Web3 gaming, being able to help mold and craft and build a black dude who's super cool with tattoos, that raps on stream and loves fashion, but who's also playing this new style of game, who's also an entrepreneur, it's just like one of those things. It's like he's the perfect package of someone to take a risk on. There's no risk, it's an investment. And if it doesn't happen, I almost feel like it's because web3 either doesn't work or, you know, Bryce finds a girlfriend and gets married and says, you know what, the hell with it, I'm over it. Which I can't control that. So a super long winded answer to just say it was just kind of like the right place at the right time to make the investment. And from a revenue side of things, you know, we're not monetizing Bryce right away. We're not just going out and getting him super low hanging fruit cash deals to just kind of throw on his Twitch stream. And now it's a job well done and we've made some revenue off of him. Like we're really in it for the long run. Like we're really trying to build out who he is and where his positioning is in this category because it's very moist concrete right now. I mean there's nobody can tell me that they know what's going to happen in this industry, which is exciting. So it's like for our perspective, it's just continuously keeping Bryson at the forefront to make him that individual that you think about. Because that's how Tim the tap man, Dr. Lupo Ninja Nick Merckx myth. You see all these OG gaming creators, they were doing the exact Same thing inside of Web2 Gaming. They were just playing the new game, which is battle royale. Everyone got into this new game format. Fortnite was a new battle royale game that they started to play. And then all of a sudden a lot of people started to get into it. And then Ninja happened to know that Drake and this and that, and one thing led to another. But nobody would have predicted that Fortnite was going to be the game. It could have been a different game. What if Fortnite never launched the battle royale mode of the game? It would have been maybe something else. So it's just about being at the forefront, which I think Bryce is going to be at. And then from a marketing side and just like an overall partnership perspective side, we just want to be helping him and position him the right way for when the onslaught of opportunities start to arrive and we start to build and grow them for him. That they're the right type of opportunities that set them up for success and don't just sell them out right away as just another meat patty on the meat patty line like a lot of the other three letter acronym agencies do with their talent. Holy smokes. That was a long answer, but hopefully that gives some context.

A little bit.

I just fell asleep. I didn't hear you guys.

You don't interrupt, man. You're on a flow.

Hello?

Yeah, man.

Dude.

No, there was a lot there. I was taking notes and yeah, with Bryson. He's an amazing pick. I mean, it's obvious just the way he speaks and lays these things out and it's. It's empowering, I think too, for a lot of content creators because he is a newer creator as well. Like, he broke down his story on our podcast and how he did it. He was, you know, on Twitch was his big growth lever. And man, so many questions from. I'm going to give a couple. Maybe you just take one. Like, I'm curious about the esports crossover and what Vayner Sports like.

The.

Maybe the vision outside of just Bryce. Bryce, how that looks like in maybe esports being the thing. Like, I want to see the. Yeah. How does that crossover look and how do you see that playing out with esports and that model with Web3?

Yeah, I don't know how it pans out. I think it's part of my excitement about signing Bryson is that I'm at the forefront of a lot of really fun stuff that's happening in the industry. In addition to just what I'm up to. Vayner3 is a consulting agency that's our sister company that is working with the biggest brands in the world creating these massive Web three NFT strategies and projects. So it's just like we're at the forefront of new technology. So I don't know how esports uses the blockchain to innovate their business. I don't know how they connect with Web3Games. I think early onslaughts of the industry, it was like we'll create our own guild and the whole play to earn nonsense of players play this and earn that token. And I think that's how a lot of the early organizations looked at it. They're very drunk off of the idea of coins and tokens. I think ultimately not trying to be over the top creative with how esports organizations tap into Web3. I think it's just like at some point in time there's going to be a fun game that gets launched and people just start to play it because it's going to be free to play, it's going to get launched on the Epic store or Steam will finally come out with their tweet that says oops, you're right, we should have been more open minded to games that have NFTs inside of them. And it's just going to be a fun game. Just like every game that has its moment is just a fun game that people start to play. I think there's going to be that game. All these early games are so shitty that that's what everyone's first impression is of it and it's like, okay, like that's fine. They're just uneducated about the true value that blockchain technology can provide in their life, let alone in the video games that they play. So I think it's like a two pronged answer and I promise all my answers won't be this long. I think it's just like important to think three dimensionally here that it's not just a black or white answer where this is what needs to happen. But it's like esports organizations, like all organizations need to figure out how their company is is going to be connected on or adjacent to the blockchain because everything is going to have some level of connection from ticket sales to apparel to loyalty marketing to, you know, there's companies that are trying to bridge like reward programs so you can play all these different games and you connect to your Steam accounts and all this other stuff and as you're playing and earning you'll connect points and the points is actually a cryptocurrency but it's not a publicly traded currency. And then you can use those points to, you know, get a 20% discount on tomorrow's game at the stadium. Like there's all sorts of fun things that are going on that blockchain technology is bringing to the table. So again, two pronged answer of esports organizations as a business, like all businesses have to figure out, how is our business model going to interact with blockchain technology and the applications that are built on top of them? The other side of it is we've got this roster on our website of different players and different games that, that they're playing. What game do we want to look into next? And then as we're seeing right now, competitive esports is like throwing money in the air and burning it. It's not a moneymaker. Like that's not how these orgs are making money. You see a massive, massive round of layoffs in a lot of these organizations. They're expanding different product offerings that the organization has to offer. Some are launching their own products because they're trying to diversify the revenue streams because they realize that they can't build the billion dollar company that they're valued at if all they do is just try to find the best players that are playing the game and winning championships. That's a small piece to being a successful esports organization. So I think there's going to be a game that gets launched that competes with some of these other games from an esports side. So I think they'll expand the roster and dive into a different esports league. So I think that's going to be created inside of a Web3 game and then just overall like what's the most popular game that content creators will want to play? And all the orgs are going to try to sign some of the top content creators that play those games just like they're signing right now. So I guess like two to three pronged answer, but hopefully that, hopefully that answers your question.

Definitely, man. Let's talk about content creators because earlier this morning you had a tweet out that states if you're a young, unpolished, small numbered content creator, you have to check your ego at the door and drain out any and all entitlement you have. You don't deserve anything from anyone. And content creator as a job is not built for everyone. Can you elaborate more on what it takes to be a content creator in the space and are there any differences between traditional gaming and crypto gaming as far as content creators are going?

It's like being an Entrepreneur, Like, I think, I mean a lot of this is based on like, if anybody is in the traditional gaming space, there's a big debacle going on between Frosty and nadeshot and 100 thieves and all sorts of other stuff. So I won't get into that because that's a whole different podcast. But it's just this idea that like, as, as an entrepreneur, like if us three started a business tomorrow, like we're not entitled to a million dollar investment. We're not entitled. Like, it's very difficult and I think the hours that it takes to become successful due to the nature and like, I'm 30 years old, I'm not old, but I think it's this idea of like the younger generation being entitled. I think there is a lot of that entitlement because of our consumption of content. Of like, why does that guy or girl have a million social media followers and they have no talent? And here I am playing video games, grinding my ass off, engaging with the. I've been doing this for two years, two full years, and I only have like, there's this level of like. And like sometimes that happens. Like, not everybody made their high school basketball team either, yet they played every day in the gym and did all that they can do. Like, you're not. Just because you are passionate about something and you work your hardest doesn't mean that you're going to accomplish what you think you are entitled to accomplish. Sometimes shit just doesn't work out. And a year to some people seems like a long time. But then if I've been doing it for eight years and I'm just a little bit ahead of you, I'm like, hey man, that's pretty cute that you think doing it for two years and you're unsuccessful. I'm six years ahead of you and I'm only one step ahead. There's just this idea of content creation cannot be driven by money. It's like the same thing with entrepreneurs. Even though today, like money is like falling off of trees at people. Entrepreneurs shouldn't be growing businesses because they're excited about the sale of the company. Like, that's not a good way to start your business. Because if that's the way that you're starting your business, your decisions are going to be faulty. They're going to be tainted by another thing in your brain that's thinking, if I could make this decision, I can sell it faster. Versus this is the right decision to make for the business. This decision is best for the sale of the company. And I think entrepreneurs that are building and growing understand that that's more on the entrepreneur landscape. Content creators, I think, are the same way. If you want to be a content creator, your ultimate goal can't be, I want to be rich and drive Lamborghinis in LA and be a celebrity. Being a content creator is about creating a very small community of people that love you, that then start to love each other and you're able to bring together a community of people and you love entertaining them and bringing them together. Like, it has to be a wholesome start and you might never become rich if you do that, and that's okay. I just think so many people from a content creator standpoint get into the game because this is their pathway to financial freedom. And I think that's complete bullshit. And that's a horrible way to kickstart your career as a content creator. But that's from a consumption standpoint. That's all you see are content creators that are rich and are celebrities. So I want to be a content creator and I want it to happen now, right now. I want it to happen in one year. I want to become the biggest name. People are setting unrealistic expectations for themselves that are all financially driven. So I think in order to be a great content creator, you have to not be financially driven. And by not being financially driven, but being really fricking good at what you do, you're going to find financial freedom and opportunity because you're not solely focused on it. And it's the same way that I talked to Bryson about growing his community is stop focusing on your next follower. Start adding value to your most recent follower, so to speak. And by doing more for your most recent follower, you will attract your next follower. So I think that's very similar to how I see we're adjacent to that conversation around being a content creator. Stop focusing on making more money, focus less on making more money and focus more on all the essentials of building a community. And you'll find income and revenue that way versus only focusing on that. Hopefully that answers the question.

Well said.

Well said indeed, man. And that's where you nailed on a few things, because I'm thinking of creators, there's like a short term and a long term thing and maybe they're not thinking so long term here. And you mentioned community. Start with a small community that love you, that love us, and then continue to, you know, love each other and then grow one by one from there. How would you suggest these creators working with projects to approach it in kind of like with a short and a long term perspective because there's a lot of ways of course in web 3 you can kind of collab on things, you know. So I'm curious of your guys approach.

Or any best practices for these guys I would say. And again like it's kind of a hot topic for me over the last couple of weeks. But like I think there also has to be some professionalism, right? Like for some reason NFTs and Web3 projects and communities, like they, they act as if they're not a business and like you're also a business. I know it's all like lovey dovey now I'm talking out of the other side of my mouth. But like I think it's a combination. If you're just a creator, I think I. You have to be centered around a community and like the idea of you creating additional revenue really comes at the idea that you're going, there's going to be an outside party that's going to pay you for access to your community. That's ultimately what influencer marketing is, is I have a large community of people that follow me, that listen to me, that take what very, very seriously and when I say jump, a lot of people jump you as a project or a brand or a property or whatever want to work with me so that you get my sign off on whatever the message, the product, the services that you're looking to sell, you're going to partner with me so that my community sees that if I'm doing that, my community member is going to be extra incentivized to at least go a step or two further to convert to buy your product, service, whatever, whatever. That's ultimately what influencer marketing is. But on the other side, I think the worst thing about Web3 communities and projects is they try to mask selfish motives with these lovey dovey terms. Wagamy, we're going to the moon. I'm looking for people that want to partner with me at an early stage to build and grow with my community.

That's selfish. That's super selfish. And you're taking advantage of content creators that have taken the time to put into building this awesome community of people and you're selling them on something and almost making them feel guilty for saying no to you. I think more NFT communities and projects have to think of themselves as a business because that's what they are and they've got a community and a customer base that are looking for fun opportunities to be a part of and whatever the promised utility is of that project. You have to start acting like a business and less like a community if you want to do partnerships. Because ultimately, like that's a business relationship, whether you like it or not, you have to be professional that we can't all just hold hands and grow together. Like, I get it, I think that's a great mindset to have. But when a contract gets written, which you have to write contracts in order to do partnerships, there's no wagamy rocket ship emojis in my term sheet like that. I think that's what Web3 is missing right now, that I don't become frustrated. But it's just, it's a component of Web3 that consistently comes up week by week by week is the unprofessionalism of the owners of these projects that are trying to build, but they're talking to the same people every single day. And it's like in order for you to really scale and create something special, you have to start operating like an LLC and you're rooted in the right thing. But in order to really build and grow, you have to flip your mindset to thinking like a businessman. And I think a lot of the ideas of how you'll be able to work and partner with other people will have more opportunity if you can structure something that also is built from like a contractual influencer marketing based strategy and approach and not just let's just do cool shit together and we'll just build and do stuff. And it's like what? Like you can only do that for so long. And I think web3 has become blinded by the fact that we're all still 1% of the world. Like what are we talking about? Like we're still this little pebble in the grand scheme of society. Like, so stop doing the same thing over and over, start to think bigger and more unique and like hire people and like pay outside parties for help on really how to build your community as a business, not just as this fun lovey dovey project that has no rhyme or reason to what it is you're doing. And I think the majority of people who are running those projects have selfish motives for why they're doing that. So I think I answered the question.

You did, man, you did. And I think it's one too where it's tricky for content creators starting out right now. This is a bear market, so I'm curious what advice you have for anyone who's struggling in the bear market to do collabs and sponsorships when a lot of projects don't have Funds.

What do I think? I think a lot of things, the especially the gaming side. So many of these early projects are asking for people to promote crypto token, ICO drops and land sales. They're not promoting the game, which I think is fine, but I think that's part of the issue is a lot of people are falling to your point that it's a bear market. They're falling to promoting things that long term hurt their reputation. But it's an easy short term income generator. So you're going back and forth between man, I'll take a quick 2,500 to 5k to promote this land sale, but ultimately, when that community member that you told is the best game ever, it's going to be awesome. And again, you're promoting financially driven opportunities. When that project becomes a disaster and a failure, who's that community member going to blame? You, the content creator. And then next week you promote another land sale and you say the same shit and another person. So you're now hurting your long term reputation for short term opportunities. And I'm not blaming the creators for doing that. I don't know how to get more money as a content creator in a bear market. Go work a job. I don't know. You just got to figure out if this is what you want to do. Again, you're not entitled to make $50,000 in sponsoring stuff. And if you do, and you're just shilling tokens and cryptocurrency, you're running the risk of ruining your reputation for the long term. When the dam actually opens and a ton of people get into the industry, everyone's going to be shaded away from working with you because your entire reputation the last 6, 812 months has been built on the back of you shilling land sales and ICOs and not video games. And a ton of your community members are getting burned. And now your next sale and your next pitch becomes less desirable for them because that's all you're selling. And if my last two land sales that you sold me were unsuccessful, you think I'm gonna buy the third one? You've now lost me as a community member. So I guess it's a long winded way to say, I don't know how the hell you wanna make more money, go get another job. But if you're in it for the content creation, you gotta be wary of your long term reputation because this industry that you're in is so new right now. Your reputation should be the most important aspect of what it is that you're doing. You cannot be financially driven. You need to be making content over the next 24 months under the idea that I'm not going to make a dollar. So however else you want to make money in life, go do that. But don't focus on making money right now because you're building your reputation for when all the horses and sheep and everybody comes running into your community like you're. When everyone comes hurting, herding into this industry, which they are, what's your reputation going to be? And I think that's where creators have to focus on. Stop being financially driven in an early market. You're just going to make the wrong decision to kill your reputation for the long term. Boom.

Nailed it there with that last sentence and everything you said before that. You were so true on that. And I hate seeing content creators that do a great job with money though, as that dangling carrot in front of them. And I feel it affects a lot of people long term by selling their soul out in the short term. Games in this space, especially in crypto, like you said so early, man, it's just such a risky play.

I want to touch on, I want to Darren, talk about the IP side of stuff, what you guys are doing there and if there's crossover with Web3 and some of these sports that you have so many different sports. You guys are covering football, baseball, combat sports, MMA stuff. So I'm just curious if some of that stuff's moving over. Anything that you can kind of give us some hints to what's coming for Vayner Sports?

Yeah, I mean, it's super cool. I mean, again, there's a reason why AJ, one of our co founders and our current CEO, is the reason he started the VaynerSports Pass. So we're the only sports agency in the world, I think the country. We have our own NFT community and I think that was a one, a vehicle of revenue for the agency, which, which is awesome to be able to provide these amazing experiences for a community of people. But I also think it's a great, it's a great outlet for our clients that we're signing to really get firsthand access and experience into NFTs. And we're, it's like we're doing it with or without you as a client. And I don't know what the statistic is, but it's like I remember from my old digital media days where it's like it takes eight views of that ad before somebody clicks it or whatever the hell that is. Like, it's the same concept, I think for enticing people to get into to a new topic or to finally say, you know what, I'm going to text AJ today and ask him for 20 minutes of his time to ask him about what NFTs are. As an NFL athlete, I think that level of proactiveness that we bring to the table is unique in the sports world. That we're not just behind the scenes trying to service our athletes. It's like we're putting our money where our mouth is. Like we're actually doing the work for our own project. So when you're ready to do your own project or you're interested in this industry, I think there's just an additional level of confidence in talent to be like, yeah, these guys know what they're talking about. Like they're doing it on their own. It's not just the agent or the marketing guy that like quick gets off a call or watches a YouTube video, calls the client and acts like the Web3NFT expert. That I think happens way more often than not. Especially over the last 18 to 24 months. We where you see a lot of celebrities and athletes that are launching NFT projects and like anyone who's from the space is like, the hell is going on? Like, what is that? And you're thinking like, who are these people around them that convinced them that this was a good idea because they don't have good people around them giving them good advice. So I think from the athlete angle, I think we're very bullish, but we're not in a rush. I think we're just bullish on the topic. But in no way, shape or form are we pushing this on any of our athletes. I think we're just, we're very bullish on the topic that as an athlete similar to kind of that transition from no social media to social media. And like, it's crazy to think at 30 years old, like I was a part of that era of like not having social media or athletes not having social media that you watched. But it was like, oh, it's just for the kids. That's for those young rookies. Then as a veteran of the league, like you don't have social media. What is this social media stuff? It's like petty little kids playing around, talking to each other, posting pictures. Like that's how it was kind of ultimately branded in pro sports. And then all of a sudden everyone has social media now. And then it's crazy to look at some names that, you know, back in my childhood you'd be like, oh my Gosh, like this person is such a, you know, it's a hall of Famer. You're like, they have 50,000 followers on social media was because yeah, they were eight years late to the game and they don't do anything with it. So I think like I see NFTs very similar to that innovation of a new platform and a new application that surrounds somebody of influence that is very, very new. There's a lot of uncertainty around what the purpose is and why I have it. There's a lot of people that get into it and use it the wrong way. There's a lot of people that I think the difference is that NFTs have a monetary exchange when you execute whatever the idea is versus social media is just, hey, I have social media and a ton of people follow you and then you don't post for eight months. Well, there's no risk for anybody on the opposite end of that. It's a lame follow because I'm not getting any content out of you. But everything was free in exchange. I think that's the biggest concern which I think plays plays into why I think there's going to be. It's like a very muddy people like the industry's running in sand versus how social media was. Where it caught fire so quickly was because everything was free. It was free to follow, it was free to post, it was free to create. It was an entire free to engage industry from the creator side and from the fan side where I think NFT land with a lot of athletes and influencers and like we were living in a creator economy. I still think we're up against a lot of headwinds because it's an exchange of commerce and I think people take. It's a longer sales cycle for people to engage in a commercial transaction with somebody than it is to just click and follow for free. Which is why I'm very bullish on different projects or whoever that are trying to build free to purchase type NFT communities that don't have a commercial transaction as the first hurdle that people have to jump over. But anyway, back to your original question. I think we'd love to be a premier agency for sports athletes that understand I need an NFT community, I want to drop an NFT project and I know the time and the effort that it takes to put into that NFT community what Gary has created with veefriends, what we're doing at Vayner Sports Pass. Like we have a lot. I mean our teeth are as sharp as anyone's teeth. Being able to help those athletes create their own Web3 strategy that they own 100%. But also we offer kind of that in the middle ground, that resting area on the journey to your project that you control on your own. You can do stuff with Vayner Sports Pass, which is because you're signed to our agency. You're in lower school and middle school and high school and then it's like you graduate, you go to college. Like being able to really get an understanding for everything. We're offering that opportunity for them. And then from a esports gaming creator angle, it's the same thing. You know, it's, it's the reason I love working with gaming creators and people in that space is that they're really born as entrepreneurs. That's what they are. Started with one person watching them and now they've got a thousand. Whatever that growth is, you know, they're a business that sells a product and that's themselves and the community and the content and all of that. Like that's their product that they're selling. And they have to find unique ways to keep them excited about new stuff and offering new opportunities and everything. You know, it's helping them, it's helping them understand that. It's helping them understand the values and efficiencies that blockchain can bring to them as an individual with a community of people that are looking to engage with them. And it's helping, it's helping them process that, but do it in a way that has longevity to it. That's not just a quick, fast hitting contractual exchange of revenue for a couple social media posts to promote your monkey with a blunt in its mouth. That's not an NFT strategy for a creator. That's a quick, fast hitting financial reward, which I think the majority of agencies that are representing talent these days that are not endemic inside of Web3, that's how they're monetizing. And that's just not my approach.

Darren, man, you dropped so many golden nuggets of alpha and wisdom. If people are listening and they want to follow you and contact you, what's the best way to do it?

I'm super on brand. I am. This is D Glove, Darren Glover. D Glove is just my nickname. So this is D Glove on Twitter and Instagram I play Apex like every single night. If you see me in the Kill Cam, that's my handle playing Apex. It's my handle playing Call of Duty, handle playing Fortnite, it's my handle on Telegram, it's my handle on Discord. So yeah, I mean, if you actually want to, like, reach out and say something or ask something, I would say probably Twitter or Instagram. DMS is probably the easiest.

Aaron, that was rad, man.

SA.