James Barry: How Ancestral Foods Can Transform Your Life

All right, picture this. What if you could take the most nutrient packed superfoods on the planet, foods that have fueled humans for centuries, and actually make them taste great and amazing, make it easy to eat. That's usually pretty impossible, but my guest today, James Barry, cracked that code. He used to be a celebrity chef, cooked for people like George Clooney, Tom Cruise, and so many others. And he realized that this ancient way of eating is actually the way to go in this modern way we're all living. Diets are kind of, they're really bad. You know, they're all over the place. But like, you know, we break it down on this podcast. So you're going to get a mix of diets and how to use this ancestral way of eating that James talks about and has now built this brand called Pluck Around. We'll dig into that, but why? It's going to help you as an entrepreneur, as a human, to feel better, make better decisions, have more longevity in anything you're doing. But James also breaks down his, his reinventions throughout all of his years, even before being a celebrity chef. It's an awesome story of how he even got into that. So he's going to break it down and then give you a path to try some of this stuff out yourself. He's also hooking you up with a pretty cool discount to his products at Pluck. Just go to hustle and flowchart.com Pluc go try him out.

It's awesome.

Awesome. I recommend them and you're going to love James. So let's get into the episode.

Marketers have never been so spread thin. You know, like, with all this stuff happening, technology is going crazy. It's really tough to really focus and get creative and create great content or connect with the customers like we used to or even prospects. So, you know, you're trying to launch a bunch of content campaigns, you're generating leads, you're trying to score the leads, you're nurturing them so much more, but you really don't have enough time to even breathe, let alone do the best marketing out there. But HubSpot is trying to fix that for you. They have a new AI, it's built into the system called Breeze. So it actually combines their marketing hub and the content hub with all these different cool features that help you automate and, you know, remix your content into a whole bunch of different types of score your leads in a better way and actually have a nice look at the analytics and everything that's going on in your business. So I would Recommend to stop spreading yourself out so thin and start making some big moves with HubSpot. You can try it out for yourself. Go visit HubSpot.com marketers to learn more. I want to pause for a moment and shout out another podcast on the HubSpot Podcast Network, your audio destination for business professionals. This one's called OG Mentors. It's hosted by Julie Mayer and Jimmy Edgerton. And these two, they're a pretty cool duo where one is, you know, Jimmy is a lot more on the loose side. I would say that Julie brings it in and keeps us focused on mentoring and movement. And so these folks, they. They focus on mentoring and exploring ways on how to augment and refresh, kind of like the way that mentoring is applied. And they have these principles that they weave into their episodes, and they. They give a bunch of practical tips and they lace it with a whole bunch of humor as well. It's always cool when there's a cool duo happening there. So if you're in the mentoring space or if you have a, you know, leadership space, relationship guidance and things like that, that's what the podcast is made for. So you'll get a lot for it. It's great for entrepreneurs, marketers, sales professionals. They love the show as well. It's a great one. I've checked it out and I recommend it.

So.

So go listen to OG Mentors wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, before you get into the episode, I urge you to hit pause and go check out the AI Digital Mind. It's like a digital twin of this podcast and a whole bunch of other content I've released. Go to hustleandflowchart.com aijoe that's hustleandflowchart.com AI Joe, you can literally chat with this podcast with me and my guests in text, audio, and video for free. If you want one of these made for yourself. If you're Interested, go to hustleandflowchart.com interest and we make these things out. So enjoy.

Let's get to the episode.

All right, James, we're doing this.

Appreciate you for making the time today. And I guess we'll just start off.

How are you feeling today?

You know, are you. Are you feeling pretty good? You know, just. I should answer that for you. How you doing?

I'm actually. I'm feeling really taken care of. There's. There's been a lot of learnings, probably some of the biggest learnings I've had in the four years of the business that started at the end of 2024 and going into this year, it's kind of like the learnings are like, what got you here is not going to get you there. It's that kind of learnings.

Yeah.

And, and I'm feeling, when they first came up, I was like, I was feeling like, like I was slowly, you know, falling to the bottom of the ocean, you know, weighted down.

Hello.

But, but, but now I'm like, oh, I'm being lifted up. There's so many people that are available and that are really helping to be guides and mentors. And so I feel very, very blessed and taken care of.

That's big. And as an entrepreneur of any sort, I mean, you are in the food space, culinary space. You know, a lot of us work alone, or at least we feel like we're alone. So it's interesting because you were telling me you've had some perspective shifts and, you know, you've had some outside perspective shifts. Do you have some internal as well? Or like, do you reflect? Like, do you have a process for that?

I mean, I, I'm definitely aware of it. I, I think that there's definitely an aspect of imposter syndrome. Never run a CPG company. So that, that right there kind of supports imposter syndrome when you're entering a, a field that you're not as familiar with. But I'm also very determined and I'm feeling scrappy and I'm just like, you know, I am gonna, I'm gonna figure this out. And, you know, I think I'm able to, at my age, to reflect back at my life and go, okay, well, I've, I've done like, you know, four or five marathons. I've done a triathlon. Like, I got through that. Yeah, I could do this. And I'm a father and I'm a husband of 13 years. You're like, it's like, okay, I've endured a long, long term relationship. I'm, I have kids that are healthy and happy. You know, like, okay, I've done that, you know, so I'm just kind of like, I. Trying to take things wherever I can.

And apply them when I am feeling kind of less than or when I am feeling like that there's a mountain in front of me, you know, I'll share. This is really interesting. Just gives an example, a model of how I'm pulling from everything.

That's great.

It's snowing right now where I live. And I mean, not literally snow, but there's snow on the ground and, and I walk my daughter, my Youngest daughter to school every weekday. And we walk sometimes through a forest. And I sometimes wear these shoes that really kind of slip in the snow. But I noticed that if I walk in the footprints of people that came before me, I don't slip as much. And I was applying, I was even taking from that, going like, oh, that's a, that's a, that's a business mantra right there. It's like, don't feel like you have to create your own footsteps. Like, there's plenty of people that have come before me. I, I can just see what they did, replicate it and apply it to my business and just step in their footsteps. It's still my footstep, but I don't have to reinvent. I like that I don't have to go it alone.

Ooh. Yeah. I, I can relate both, you know, specifically to the scenario you're talking about. I mean, I'm in San Diego. It doesn't snow much. It might though. It just snowed in Florida. Who knows? So. But yeah, but I know the fact. I know you say, I'm like, you know, I've slipped many times because I don't experience snow much. But walking in footsteps, you're right, it's easier. But at the same time, yeah, a lot of us in business just feel like we're kind of lone soldiers going out for it. You know, we know what's best. Or maybe we're imposter syndrome. Stops us from asking questions or asking for help. I know that's a pretty common one. I see it in my mastermind of like high level entrepreneurs every time. And they even admit it. They're like, yeah, I don't like to ask for help. Or it just doesn't feel right.

That I will say is not my issue. And it's because.

I did have a business that I did go alone a lot and I didn't ask as many questions. And I felt the negative effects of that. I felt the isolation. I felt the kind of suppression slash hardship that I created from not asking questions. So I'm very like, I entered this business that I'm currently in, um, I entered it very conscious of making sure that the business plan was also included. My health plan. I, I was like, very aware of, like, hey, our schedules are fictional. Like, this idea that we have to do this ABC is, is completely false. It's all made up because you can go around the world and you can see the work week. The hours, the work day and the work week are completely different depending on what country you're in true. So there is no streamed like everyone has to do this. It's particularly if you're working in E commerce. It's what you create and what you communicate. So I was very aware of that. And then the third thing was that I, I was very aware that, that I was going to enter this learning like, like, like in a learning mode of like I was going to ask questions and I was not going to fake it till I make it. I was going to be very, very transparent about that process. But what's interesting is by, by having even that clarity of those points I just made. It also helps me be more clear with my instincts. Like I'm very, I'm like, I'm like my ears are primed so I'm very like I'm listening, I'm looking for signs, I'm looking for clarity. But I'm also coming at it from a heart center place.

Yeah, you're grounded.

Yeah, so I'm grounded and open.

Yeah, that's cool. I just interviewed gentleman Kevin Serrays. He's a big, you know, he has like 94 patents and you know, one of the things he said was like I just have to expand, you know, put myself in a good joyous place, you know, finding joy. But that allows him to be more open to the possibilities and you can solve better problems that way or problems people don't normally see. It kind of sounds like what you've done, you know, you've allowed yourself to get that guidance and yeah, not hack it alone which is so common.

And what I'm also learning, this is a slight step away from business but it, I think it, it will serve everyone is that I'm also learning. Well, well taking what he said like so tapping the joy. But how do you tap the joy? Like how, how, how do you co create an environment where you can, can, you can tap joy? And I'm finding what helps the most is routine and making sure that that routine has exercise or movement attached to it because that does co create joy when it creates happiness because the endorphins from working out actually chemically create happiness. So like building that routine, I wake up at the same time every day, I work out at the same time every day and I go to sleep at the same time every day. And that routine has absolutely made a huge difference and not only my state of mind, but also getting shit done.

Yeah, no, absolutely. If you're not routine with something that you can control like that then like how can you, how can you adapt to the world around you? That's constantly in motion, you know, and it just.

And that's the. That's the trick, right? Everyone thinks like, oh, like, if I re. Reach this level of success, then it's. It's not going to be as chaotic. It's like, no, it is. You just have new problems. Like, you don't reach. There isn't a point where you're. You're like, oh, you're just gliding and you're just like, oh, like, business is so easy. It's like, it's just new problems.

Yeah, yeah. You never made it. Right. Like, there's no making it. Like, you might find that summit, that peak, but then you're like, guess what? There's a ton more. It keeps going. And that's the journey. It really does.

There's. There's always something to learn.

You know, you have a really interesting background I want to get into because there's a lot of different angles we'll explore here. And I like where we've already gone. James. And, you know, you've been in food for a lot of years. You celebrity chefing. I'm sure you did some stuff before that I want to learn about, because. And then, you know, you've obviously now cpg. You have your own products. Pluck, you know, so I'll just shout it out now. Eat Pluck is, you know, the domain. Actually, you hooked us up with a cool little coupon code, so we'll mention that in a little bit. But, yeah, I want to really set the stage because you've been in food for a long time. You worked with a ton of celebrities or, you know, cooked food for them, probably educated them on some stuff maybe they haven't known about. You know, people like what, George Clooney, Barbra Streisand, Some pretty large names. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tom Cruise, pretty large. So I guess I'm curious, what was your experience with food growing up? You know, it sounds like there was a switch that happened. And I'm. I'm curious, you know, why food and. And why do you go down this. This journey?

Yeah, it's interesting.

I.

My mom always laughs. She's like, I don't know how I got a chef for a son. Because in the household I grew up in, you knew dinner was ready because the smoke detector went off.

Like, was she doing the cooking or your dad?

Oh, she was doing the cooking. And, you know, she grew up in culture. It's like, where you. You cook things to death. You overcook them to make sure there was no pathogens. Like that's how she was raised. So like hamburgers, we dump them. Hockey pucks like that, they were that hard, you could throw them against the wall and they bounce right back at you. Like a frisbee.

Yeah, yeah.

But, but so to this day it was like, it's like, how, how did I get in this field? But there was something, there's some spark that happened when I first learned how to scramble an egg. And I think for me, what didn't put me down that path when I was a young kid was that I didn't see it as a job, I didn't see it as a career path. It's easy to, to for people to think that the culinary fields have always been about celebrities and game shows and food shows and all that stuff. But it's like that stuff did not exist in the 70s. It's like I grew up. There was two cooking shows that I remember as a kid. There might have only been one at the time, but when I was watching TV in my middle school age years, I remember two. And it was Julia Childs and it was the Frugal Gourmet. Those were the two I remember. And they were both on pbs. Like that's it. There was nothing else.

Wow.

And so the path for, you know, cooking was, was you have to own a restaurant. And I was like, I don't want to do that. My dad owned a grocery store and he would work these long hours and I just remember, like I remember a certain point in my life where I would go to bed and he wasn't home and I would wake up and he wasn't home. So he had come home and slept in between those two times. And you know, I was sensitive kid, so I was like, I don't, I don't want to do that. And, and it wasn't until.

It really wasn't until 911 that I, that I re looked at my life and I was like, okay, life is, life is precious. I feel like that was our generation's Pearl harbor, you know. So I was like, I, I need to make sure that every decision I make henceforth is really heart centered. It's coming from a place of mission and wanting and why I'm here on this earth. And so I was, at the time I was substitute teaching or kind of working in the education system and I was in Hollywood. I was an actor and working in that arena. And I liked the art of creative creating things from scratch. I love the creativity that came with the film and TV business. But I didn't like The. I didn't really enjoy the, The LA school system, the LA Unified. And so I was kind of like, well, what do I, what do I want to do? And I, And I look back, well, what did I love as a kid? And it was cooking. So I then switched gears, went to culinary school, came out of culinary school. And, and how. I think we all know when we've tapped something, tapped into maybe a source that's bigger than us. Is, is this what's happened? This is what happened for me as an actor. I was working so hard, I was putting out 200 and I maybe got back 30.

Wow.

Maybe getting back, meeting in. In terms of like, what. Financial.

Money gain, financial or, or enjoyment, opportunity, anything. Like, I, I had to really create my own opportunity in that field. It did not come effortlessly. And I think most actors and people in entertainment experience that, but what's interesting is they just don't have the contrast. So then when I moved towards the culinary field, I put out 100, I got back 200. The manifestation that happened was off the charts. I would literally. I mean, Joe is crazy. I, I would literally think, I want to cook for rock bands. And a week, two weeks later, I would get a call, hey, do you want to be the, the vegan chef on the Vans Warp tour where you, you know, you tour for 60 days around the US and Canada and you cook for over 200 bands? And I was like, okay. It was like, it was, it was so fast and, and, and there was true manifestation happening. So I, I felt like, okay, I'm. I'm onto something here. And, and then, and then it took me to the path of eventually starting a meal delivery service to then eventually starting a CBG company.

Wow.

Okay, that's. That's a cool path. And I love. So it sounds like you've been tapped in and kind of this grounded feeling throughout the whole thing. And.

Yeah.

Okay.

So was there.

I'm curious, on the food side specifically. Like, so you said scrambled an egg. That was like the aha moment. Yeah. And you, you weren't raised in a, In a home where, you know, it was a different style of cooking. Like, was there a. Because I, I thought I read you were kind of a picky eater as well. Like. Yeah, yeah. Like, was there a. I was a very picky eater.

I didn't have my first taco until I was in college. If we went to. I grew up in California. Right. So that's a big deal.

It is. I'm in San Diego, so. I know.

Yeah, yeah. You know oh, San Diego is such good Mexican food.

I would, we would go to a Mexican restaurant when I was a kid and I would order a hamburger.

Like, that's how bad one of those guys.

I was bad. And I wouldn't even eat the hamburger. I was paleo before it even there was even a word for it. So when I was a kid and we'd be going on our road trips, most people back then, of course, stopped at fast food. And so we would stop at, like, McDonald's, and it would always take us longer because I would not eat a burger as it was. Like, I didn't like, I still don't like ketchup and condiments on my burger. And I didn't like meat and bread. So what they would get is they would have to order a plain burger, and then I would get it, and I would pull the meat out from the bread and pretend I was eating because I didn't want to be freaky, right? So I was pretending I was eating it, and then I'd crumple it up and throw it away. So I was only eating meat from a burger and nothing else found in 10.

10 burgers.

Totally. I was like, God, if I had just known that was Paleo, I could have, you know, been there before Someone else, right?

Yeah, it's all marketing, man.

Yeah.

Well, I'm curious, like, with the, you know, with the celebrity thing. So it sounds like there was probably a crossover from when you did some stuff in Hollywood. You know, maybe you kind of learned, maybe there's a little network there. Don't really want to go down that so much. But I'm curious if there were some learnings, you know, when you're with celebrities, like, I guess both ways. Like, was there some teaching that you were doing to them about food, or were you learning from those experiences that you were able to take away?

It was pretty cool, actually. You know, I was in my 30s when I went to culinary school, so I was not a young pup, and, and I wasn't easily swayed. I got into it very clear and like, I, I, this is what I want to do, and I want to help people. Like, I, I want to work one on one and help people with their health. So the school I went to in New York, that doesn't exist anymore, it very much kind of fused nutrition and culinary school. So you, you not only were learning how to cook things, but you were learning why that cooking method was important or why that preparation helped to make it more digestible and more, more nutrient dense or bioavailable so it was, it was very all encompassing around health. And it was a school where a lot of people looking for private chefs were reaching out to. Now, I didn't know that when I signed up, but I got all of my first two years of jobs from referrals from the school. And that was because of how I showed up. So I also was like, some kids were at right out of high school and they would like not show up. They were like excited to be in New York and just kind of fluffing it off. And I was like, no, I'm here. Like I'm here to learn, and I'm only here to learn. And so I showed up every day and the school noticed that and I worked hard and they were like, oh, well, we know we can depend on him. So that was a huge for me and I got so many referrals. But when I. The story that I had with my very first client, private client, kind of tells you a little bit about how it was with all of my clients. So here I was, 30, I had just externed at a rehab center in Malibu, and they offered me a job as, as a assistant to the chef there. And it only was going to pay $9 an hour. So here I was, 30 years old, looking at $9. Now I was making $27 an hour substitute teaching. So it shows you how far I had fallen financially by just changing careers and how at the time the culinary arts really didn't. They still don't pay very well.

So I was, I was, I mean, I was crying when I, when I got offered that job. I was like, I can't survive off this. And this isn't, this is, this isn't what I got in here to do. And then I got a call and it was the assistant of this CBS newscaster, fairly big name back in the day. And they were like, hey, we're looking for a private chef. You come referred by the school. We are looking for someone to calorie count, to do low fat, to do this, to do that. And I was like, I heard them talk and I was like, that's not me. I'm sorry, I don't think I can deliver for you. And here I was though, needing this job, and I still did not waver from what I believe was right. And so I just said, I don't think I'm the right person for the job. That's not what I do. And she then said, well, what do you do? And I shared. I said, well, I don't believe we need to calorie count when we focus on quality of product. I believe if everything's made from scratch and I'm controlling ingredients, that not only will. Will the client feel more satiated, they won't feel a craving for outside foods, because the foods I'm giving them is so nutrient dense that it's satiating them. And, and I, and I also believe that I could create a balance of. Because most foods we purchase when they're ultra processed, they're extreme, they're extremely salty, or they're extremely sweet. And when you can make things from scratch and control the ingredients, you could find a balance. And if you ever learn about macrobiotic diets or that eating they do, that they talk about if you balance sweetness with savory, that you actually don't crave sweetness as much. You just need a hint. You don't need a lot. And so it's really just about that balance. And so I just explained it and I talked from my heart. And at the end of it, she said, well, we'll do what you said. And she was my first private client. I had her for two years, and it was a fantastic relationship. And she absolutely achieved everything she wanted. And, and, and from that moment on, that's how I entered every situation. So even Tom's people, even.

Even Gerard, but like, like, they, their people would say, well, this is how he wants to eat. And I'd be like, really? And then I would just ask him, I'd be like, tom, is this how you want to eat? Because I didn't treat them differently. I treated them just like I would talking to you. It's like. And I think that's why they liked me. I was, A, I was, I, I honored their privacy. And B, I didn't treat them like celebrities. I treated them like people. And then I came with an expertise. I, I wasn't just this, like, oh, I'll cook whatever you want. I was like, well, I wanna, I'm gonna make food that's clean and that, that serves you emotionally, but also satiates you physically.

Yeah, you're true to yourself and you're taking that. And I could see everyone loving that, you know, that, that connection.

Well, that's also, that's why my, My resume started to build, is because people were seeing such results. And I, to this day, I'm like, look, there's trends, man. When I entered culinary, when I started private chefing, the big book at the time was called a fat flush diet. And I have in my 20 years as a Professional chef. I have seen trends come and go, but the one that have always is my North Star, that never changes is. Is just eat real food.

Yeah, for sure. Just like.

And you talk a lot about ancestral eating and you know, like, just really like. Like you say the clean foods, there's a. I think a lot of more talk about processed foods now. People are starting to kind of understand what's in those. And there's all these different, you know, all sorts of toxins that come along with that as well. But, like, what's the.

I guess what's the real cost?

If you were to think of that and the disconnection from eating ancestrally, like with some of the stuff you're doing at Pluck, for instance, with organ meats.

Like, what's the disconnect in our modern times from not eating these ways?

Yeah.

What's the cost to us?

Because it seems like we're just, like you mentioned, we're craving sweets or salty. So it just seems like that just throws everything off in the terms how we feel, how we're eating it.

I think the cost is that. What was it just four years ago, maybe five? The.

The. It was the first time in a very long time where. Where the mortality rate had actually increased. So. So. Meaning that people were dying at a younger age than ever. And I think that's, you know, we talk a lot about in the industry is kids are canaries in the coal mine, if you know that reference.

Oh, yeah.

You know, you bring a canary into the coal mine to give you warning if there's. There's. The air quality has changed.

They're kind of leading the way.

Yeah. And. And we're seeing it. I mean, we're seeing huge health. Chronic health issues across the board. And it's absolutely tapped in to the choices we're making and not just choices that we're putting in our body choices as a nation, as a. As a. As a globe, as an earth, like air quality choices, water quality choices, soil quality quality choices, which all then lead to food choices, which then lead to the choices we make that for the things that go in our mouth. I think that. I think that we are.

Absolutely at a place where I believe, and I even started a podcast called Everyday Ancestral. But I believe that looking to the past, that previously I think we looked to the past and we thought we have to get back there. It's like, well, that doesn't make sense because we live in modern times, we have technology. Like, why would we try to go backwards? And I think that's the big mind shift mistake we've made is that it's not about going backwards. It's about taking the best from the past and bringing it to our present so that we have a better future. And so that's why I now look at ancestral foods. So it's not about like, oh, I'm supposed to only eat ancestral foods, I suppose. Like there's the Liver King and you're just supposed to eat testicles and raw livers. And it's like, that's not realistic. Like, I'll even share like one of the best diets I've ever done in my 20 years. And I did, I've tried a lot. The best one I ever did was, is called Raw Primal. And it's eating raw meat, raw products, like raw dairy, raw. Raw meat, anything raw. It. I felt the best I've ever felt in my life.

Actually. I've heard of some folks trying this and I was like, you gotta be kidding me.

It's incredible. And you don't get sick if you're eating from Quality Ounce. But here's the thing. Why am I not eating that way now? It's because it's not practical. Like, you can't go to parties, you can't go out to. What are you gonna eat? You know, you know, what, what is the, the, you know, raw fish every time you eat out or something or. Yeah, you just like, like life is for living. And I think when we create too many limitations, it, it's like you become Brian Johnson, that guy that's advertising as like, you know, like you become this kind of like very two dimensional person. It's like I want to be, I want to feel connected to the people around me. I want to inspire and I want to grow and learn. And I just, I don't think you can do that. When you're inside, you're boxed in. But it was the best diet. But that doesn't mean we should all be doing it well.

And I mean, isn't that the thing with diets too, right? They're fads. It's almost like if you cannot sustain something for, let's call it life, I mean, a long period of time, then.

You'Re, it's kind of.

I don't know if it's any good for you. Maybe it's even worse. Maybe. Do you have some perspective on that?

You know, I think you tapped it. It's like I, I have in my career, I've always looked for this. It's like I'm not looking for the Magic pill or the quick fix. I'm looking for the thing I can sustain. I always laugh because, you know, and, and maybe I'm revealing my age, but it's like back in the day, there was that Suzanne Somers ThighMaster.

Yeah, I remember that.

Right?

I had one as a kid.

Everyone had one. And it's like. But it's also the thing that is at every yard sale. Maybe not so much, but whatever. Ten, ten years ago it was, you know, I mean, it was at every yard sale and it's like, dude, like, clearly that was a fad. That was a trend. And it's like, I don't. I just, I don't want the thigh master of food. Like, I don't want the thigh master of diet books. I don't. I don't want that. I just. I just want things that are going to be easily sustainable. If we have Covid 5.0, it's like, I can still keep doing it because that's, you know, if anything, look at any kind of epidemic or disaster, it's like, what is the thing that you keep doing when you're in a high emotional state? That's what sustainability is. So what I've found in my career, that, that it has, at least, if it's a food, it's gotta encompass two qualities. It's gotta be both of them delicious and easy. But if you hit easy and delicious in a health food, so clearly something that's there to support your health and that desired outcome, then it's something you can sustain no matter what is going on emotionally in your life. Because why would you stop? It tastes good and it's easy to eat or to get into your body.

That's right.

Hey, I'm gonna pause this really fast and shout out a podcast that you should go follow. It's called the Science of Scaling. It's hosted by Mark Robert and it's brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Now, the reason why I like this show is that each week Mark Roberge, the host, sits down with leaders in business and talks about scaling properly. So I like Mark because he is in the trenches. He is the founding CRO of HubSpot Senior Lecturer at Harvard Business School. He's a co founder of Stage 2 Capital, and he's diving into the secrets, the strategies, all these tactics of how to properly grow with people that are doing it right now. What I've found is most companies, when they're growing, they either do the wrong things to grow or they do the right things in the wrong order. And that's what I gathered from these episodes. So it's a great way to straighten all that up. So go listen to Science of Scaling wherever you get your podcasts. I'm going to do a quick shout out one more time for the thing I talked about, the top of the episode, which is the AI version of me and of this podcast and my YouTube videos and all these things. It all lives within this AI platform. I used Delphi AI to create it, and I want you to use mine. It's totally free. Go to hustleandflowchart.com AI Joe. That's hustleandflowchart.com AI Joe. Test this thing out. It's crazy. You could type with it, talk with it. You can even use video. And you can look up anything from this podcast. You can ask a question about your business life, any scenario. It kind of learns about you with the information you give it.

It's rad.

You will love it. And also, there's a lot of people who are asking, how do I get one of these? How do I build it out? The cool thing is my team and I have been building a ton of these every single day. I've used the platform Delphi AI for two years.

I'm actually one of their advisors because.

I was one of their first users and just gave them a ton of feedback. I love it, but we build these things. So if you want to use it for lead generation, for, you know, you have all this content as an expert, author, coach, type person, we can put that into this digital brain and make it interactive. You can use it for customer service, internal training for your team, for your organization.

Lots of uses.

If you would like one of these, I can pass over an exclusive deal. There's no one else that's. That's offering this out there. I work closely with Delphi as one of their partners, agency partners, to build this out. So hit me up. Type hustleinflowchart.com interest into whatever browser. Again, that's hustleandflowchart.com interest and hit me up.

Let's build this thing together. All right, back to the episode. That's actually a great metaphor you can apply in so many ways of life. But food, starting here, it's most obvious. And yeah, it's kind of like what you mentioned earlier. You got the salty and sweet spectrum right, that a lot of processed foods are going either which way, either far end of the spectrum. But really, you can just kind of dash it with both of those and kind of get that fill. It seems like, oh, well, there's.

I mean, what's fascinating too is people don't always think about this, but. So there's the four tastes that we. That we were introduced when we were young kids, right? Salty, sweet, bitter, sour. Right? Well, there's a fifth called umami. What a lot of people don't realize is that if you think about it, why is someone picky? Like, why was I picky as a kid? Well, there's emotional reasons. Like, sometimes your life is in state unstable. And so what you're choosing to enter your mouth is the only thing you can control. And so that's. That's part of it. There can be an emotional element we now also have to include. And back then we did not include this. So this is also answering that question of like, what's changed? But now you also have to include, like, chemical differences. Like, is someone. Is someone.

Autistic? Is. Is someone have some kind of difference going on inside their body that makes them very highly sensitive to texture and flavor from someone that's not in that state. Right. So now you have to include that category. But then the other category is just that. Well, our palates are. It's a physical thing. The palate is something that exists and has existed for hundreds of thousands of years to achieve two things to make sure that either we're nourished or that we don't die. So, like, if you think about it, these. This kind of communication pathway that happens in our mouth established whether we lived or died back in the day. Right. Is this food I'm about to eat gonna kill me or nourish me? And so it's so important when we're looking at how do we make someone more adventurous, how do we, like, get someone to be more nourished? Is you think about, like, well, what. Look at what they're currently eating. If they're eating the standard American diet, the primary flavors are salt and sweet. Right. So that means that their palette is off. It's. It's. It's skewed. If those were colors, it's skewed towards blue and green. We need to bring more yellow and red into it. And that's this.

The.

The sour and. And the, the bitter.

Yep. And then umami is a fifth kind of.

And then mommy's the fifth that brings it all together. So, so, so that's kind of like it can sometimes be that easy by just pull, like change, shifting, pulling out some of those salty and sweet foods and really heightening more of those other foods. And sometimes it can be really gradual. That's the other thing that I've learned over my 20 years is that, you know, this idea in America of like, go big or go home. Like, you know, I'm American, I drive a big truck. You know, that kind of concept, it's like that, like we've. We've seen it. We've existed in this place of like, we go all in. I work hard, I play hard. You know, that mentality of like, actually, that is not how human nature works. How human nature works is the things that are actually lifestyle are the things we only do little amounts of a day. Like, if brushing our teeth took two hours, I guarantee we have some funky teeth out there.

Very good point.

Right. It's like, it works because it's a small amount of time. You know, we do it a couple times a day, but it's for small amounts. And so I've really come to realize that the way to tap into human nature and to work with human nature rather than against it is actually to really focus on micro dosing or micro amounts and then focus on duration. So micro amounts frequently.

Yeah.

Equals cumulative effect. But when you do that, like. Like that's how I think of the product Pluck. Actually, it's like. I think of it like if we're. If the life is the faucet and our bodies are the sponge. When the faucet has a drip of water, comes it. The. The sponge, it gets. The entire drop gets. Gets absorbed by that sponge.

That's right.

But if I open that faucet up, the. In. In. Tons of that water comes on that sponge. There's all this other water that drips down. And that's what we're seeing right now in this mentality of go big or go home. So we're seeing that, for example, in supplements. When people overdose on supplements, they're just peeing it out. And that's why we call it. Oh, you're just. It's expensive pee.

Yeah, it's true.

It's happening all the time and just people don't realize it.

That's a great analogy. Again, I love the analogy. It's the sponge analogy and how it all absorbs. Because it's absolutely correct. I mean, just try it. But how much waste and how much. Just overdone ness. Whatever is happening, you can apply it in a lot of places. And that brings me to. Because you obviously have your brand pluck and it's all about organ meats. And you mentioned your podcast and everything's based in this ancestral concept, these eating habits or behaviors. Why organ meats? And.

Was there a switch or something where you realized it's that, like were you feeling something or a scenario?

Well, the switch was being a coming a father. That, that's hands down. Like, I knew about organ meats when I went to culinary school. I learned about Weston A. Price. There's a book called Nourishing Traditions. And they talked all about traditional foods, the importance of, of how it's prepared, the importance of organ meats, eating whole animal and raw milk and all these different things and why. And so I knew about it then, but I didn't grow up doing that. And what, what I think a lot of times why we struggle to incorporate anything is that unfamiliarity. Like we don't have practice of doing it. We have to have more routine with it. I didn't have that. And so I struggled to get organ meats into my diet. And.

And then I had kids and I was like, okay, like, I want to be around to watch my kids grow up. And I also want to, just like every other parent out there, I want my kids to be healthy, thriving and happy. So what foods are going to support that for both of us? And then I just did some searching on the Internet. So not internal searching, but like searching on the Internet. And anyone can do this. And it's like, what are the most nutrient dense foods? And every, every indicator came back organ meats. And normally it would say beef liver, but I have actually expanded way beyond that now.

And why do they focus on arguments? Well, first of all, if you think about what's in a prenatal, like what science is telling you, this is what you need to create life. If you look at the list of vitamins and minerals, it's all an organy. And what's sad to me is that when we slaughter that cow, which is really, I mean, like, I'm not, I'm not inhumane, Like, I believe that is. That's something we need to honor. Like, we just took a life, but we took that life to feed us. And that's always going to be the case. Even if you're vegan, there's still something dying when those plants are being harvested to feed you, right? For us to live, something dies. That's just across the board. And if anyone doesn't believe that, I think you need to look, look a little deeper because talk to a farmer and they will tell you. Talk to a monocrop farmer and they will tell you it's it's like a freaking horror show. When they plow those soybean fields, all the different animals, insects, and. And critters that are housed in those fields get decimated. So something dies.

Even think about that. But you're right. There's all this death happening.

Always. Always. It's just. It's whether you just want to admit it or not. Right, But. So there's always something's dying to feed us. But when we slaughter a cow, we are currently mo. For most slaughterhouses, we're only using 50 of that cow. This is a business podcast. What business would take their resources, only use 50% of them like that? That would be the worst business plan in the entire world. So we are right now wasting about 50 of that animal. So to me, one of the most planetary things we could do is just start eating whole animal, because what's happening is we're only utilizing 50 of the animal. The most nutritious part of the animal is getting trashed. And then what are we doing? Well, we're nutrient deficient. It's like a 2015 study came to about 92% of Americans are nutrient deficient. And we're in 2025 now, so that's probably close to 94%. Right. So if 94% of Americans are nutrient deficient, but we're not calorie deficient because we're an obese nation.

Yeah, that's true.

Then what's the issue? It's clearly the food choices we're making. Well, we're. We're trashing the most nutritious part of that animal, and then what do we do? We turn around and we buy. We feed a $50 billion industry of supplements to try to, you know, compensate for what we didn't get from what we ate. And to me, that's. That's madness.

Oh, it is. And there's so much waste. So it's not just that part, you know, and it doesn't. It's not honoring the animal just in that. That whole side of things, but it's not even honoring ourselves. And, you know, I'm sure there's reasons for that. You know, people. I think there's probably associations to organs, you know, and just that concept of organ meat. So, like, what would you.

I think it. I think it brings up your mortality. I really do. I. I think that that's definitely something I've. I've been messing around with and thinking about is, like, when you. When you hear of a liver, you think your own liver. When you hear of a heart, you think you. The beating of your own heart, you know, And I think, I think that that's what we're really icked out about, whether we want to adm. Because most people will say, oh, that's gross. And they've never even tried them.

Yeah.

Because they're not. It's actually not gross. Like, you talk to anyone that truly eats whole animal. Like, I'll give you a story. There's this woman who has a website called Awfully Good Cooking. Her family is one of the most amazing families because they actually walk their talk. They truly eat whole animal. Every week, they're eating a different part of that animal. They've eaten brain, they've eating. Eaten tripe, which is the, the, the. The. Or the stomach lining is tried. And then they've also done lung. I mean, they've done so many parts. And this woman's kids, when their, her kids ask, like on their birthday, they get. She said, you can. We'll make whatever meal you want. They ask for menudo, which is a Mexican soup dish with tripe in it.

Yeah.

And most people go like, tripe, that's gross. But if you actually prepare it properly, you. And you eat it, it's, it's, it's why these kids chose it. It's incredibly delicious, soothing meal. Like, it feeds you literally, but it also feeds your soul. And that's what these kids, these young kids are asking for their birthdays. But no one would know that.

I think it's in pho as well, right?

Yes, it can be.

Yeah, it can be, yeah. If you choose.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Well, so organ meats in general and like, what you're talking about, and obviously this, it sounds like this is why you went on a mission with pluck and maybe just tell me a little bit about that and how you're approaching this whole scenario with your own product, because it's obviously what you believe in.

Once I identified, like, okay, I wanted to feed my kids the most nutrients food, well, I identified organ meats. But then I identified what are the three main hurdles. So first, we have people think it's gross.

Yeah.

Second, most people don't know how to cook it. We've lost the art of cooking it. And most people, if they do cook it, they overcook it. And that's, that's one thing I'll just share, is that when it's raw, it's actually at its tastiest. And as you cook can get stronger. Like, when you overcook liver, it gets stronger, not, not less stronger.

So okay, yeah.

So people that are like, oof, taken back by liver, it's probably because you overcooked it. And then the third one is that people don't know where to source it. Some people don't have access to it. And so. And then I guess the third is people know that they should be eating it. They are taking it in the form of a capsule and they just. Capsules are, they get either capsule fatigue or they're inconsistent. You buy it one month and you forget to take it. You know, we're just inconsistent with capsules. And so once I identified those four hurdles, I was like, okay, what do I do here? And, and, and really, I mean, that's kind of the uniqueness of me as a chef. Like, I, I've always kind of thought outside the box and I'm always kind of trying to feel out. I, I don't have. My training is not such that it keeps me boxed in. Like, where I'm. I only do the, you know, French cooking or I only do Asian cooking. Like, I'm not boxed in by a certain method of how to do things. So I'm always trying different things. I'm always thinking like, well, but what's the practical, what's the most practical use of this? And so what I basically did was I was like, okay, we already have freeze drying, and that's a preservation technique. And it not only does it preserve it from spoiling, but it also preserves the nutrients. So they're already using in capsules. And then we have these, we have dried herbs, and we have seasonings that are also shelf stable and made to last. So I was like, well, technically, when you make a pate, that's what you're doing is you're taking the organs and you're cooking them with different vegetables and herbs to make them taste good.

Sure.

So why can't I just do that on a dry level? And that's where I started to piece together pluck, which is really a ancestral superfood, but it's basically taking freeze dried powdered liver, heart, kidney, spleen and pancreas and combining it with salt and then organic spices and herbs. And so what we've created is a seasoning that you microdose frequently because we all season our food. So every time you eat, just sprinkle it on your food and you're then getting cumulative effect of the organs. We have kind of something for everyone. We have three flavors that all will also brighten the food, because the umami and the organ meats actually makes the Food taste better. So if you want to be deemed a better chef, you just put pluck on there. And everyone thinks you're amazing. And you don't even have to tell them it's pluck. Just pretend it's you. That's all good.

I love it.

And then we have, we have a fourth product which is just pure and that's just the organ meat. So that's for those people that are like, hey, I've been tested. I'm anemic. You know, my. I really need certain amount of nutrients. Great, we have that for you. I just want you to eat it versus swallowed in a capsule. And one teaspoon of that is equal to two ounces of organs. That's how concentrated it is.

Okay, because I was going to ask, I'm like, is this enough if it's just as, you know, you're sprinkling it on or you using it as flavoring?

Well, what's fascinating is it really does go back to that, that what I was saying about that whole, like, we have this American mentality of go big or go home. But it's like, is a small amount enough? Well, I, I should say is small amount. Is small amount enough said the cocaine user who just tried a little bit and was like, right, so, so clearly, like, there's aspects of life where when it's small amounts, just like that sponge and ally, actually our body is able to absorb it. Like, if. So if I take capsules with too much vitamin A or any vitamin, I'm gonna pee it out. But if I'm getting a little bit. And we typically eat three times or more a day. So if I'm using two, let's say half a teaspoon every time, even a teaspoon, I'm getting nearly a tablespoon a day of this. And what's fascinating is people, we've gotten feedback is people get their, their blood tested and they'll say like, oh, it's showing up in my blood markers. I'm no longer anemic. Or people that had skin issues, my skin issues started going away. Or people that had issues around burn with the birth or the, their child. Like this one woman messaged us and said she was on her third child. And the first two she had, she, she had very little milk. Milk supply. And then she had hemorrhage, blood hemorrhage, a lot of hemorrhaging. And she said the only thing she did different for her third one is she used pluck the seasoning, not the pure through from beginning to end. And she said she had an abundance of milk and she had no hemorrhaging. And I talked to midwives, and they're like, oh, yeah. I always know if the female had organ meats because the placenta is gorgeous. It's a beautiful, rich color, and it's a nice size, like, across the board.

Wow.

So we cannot underestimate how powerful these ancestral foods are. Our bodies were designed for them. There's this guy, Bill Schindler. He's a professor of archaeology. He will tell you that. That basically he wrote a book called Eat Like a Human. And he'll tell you that that basically we were scab. We were foragers first, then we were scavengers. So we did get some meat protein, but it wasn't until we got. We became the predator, and we got three things that we did not have previously. That's when our bodies changed. That's when our brains got bigger. That's when we. We entered the homo sapien body that we're in right now. So this is like 300, 000 years ago, right? And those three things were blood, fat, and organs. Those were the mother Nature's multivitamin that gave us the punch to then evolve our brains to be bigger and our guts to be smaller. So we lost some ability to eat just random foods, but we gained a brain that enabled us to create language, to create cities, to create all these amazing, you know, modern tools that we have to this day.

That is. I'm going to pick that book up because I've heard some sprinkles of that. That concept and what you just said there, but that it makes perfect sense, you know, that evolution of path.

He's got this great quote, Joe. He says we are the only species in the world that looks to someone else to tell us what to eat.

That's a good point.

But it goes even deeper when you realize actually there's over 8 million species. So what the heck happened to us?

Or maybe what's right with us?

Yeah, yeah. Who knows?

But you know what I mean?

Like. Like, that's crazy. And it tells you that we did know. We used to have an instinct about what we did. And that's why I'm a big follower or believer of you got to eat your food. Because when you swallow, let's say salt, a salt tablet, you get a delayed response. Why am I bloated? Oh, I got too much of that salt. But if I put salt on your tongue, your body won't let me give you too much. The the salt, the flavor of the salt changes. Like by the third or fourth time I put a dab on your tongue, it literally tastes different and it kind of tastes disgusting. Your body's rejecting it. And that's a communication pathway that's been developed for hundreds of thousands of years. Why are we not using that?

It kept us alive. It kept us so that we could evolve to who we are now. Like, we need to use it.

So you have to eat like, so in a sense, when I'm even telling people, and I know this is a business, but, but you know, here's the thing.

Good. We're living life.

Yeah. Right. And for us to be good in business, we have to be able to take ourselves, take care of ourselves. So here's the deal. Like, I would break down three main criteria for what food you allow to pass into your body. First is you look for flavors that are found in nature. Not natural flavors, not artificial flavors, but flavors that are found in nature. Meaning that they haven't been adulterated, they haven't been added to the product, they're just in the product because of how it's grown. Or, or, or yeah, or, or just. Yeah, how it's grown. So that would be. One, two would be nutrient dense foods. So foods that have nutrients in them. Not fortified foods, not foods that have been fabricated to have nutrients, but foods that have nutrients, nutrient dense foods. And then the third one is the one that most people don't think about and they also don't. We don't talk about it enough, which is now just eat those foods mindfully. Like don't eat rushing. Don't be eating in your car as you're driving through traffic. Don't mindfully just grab, you know, stuff off the shelves because it's cheap or. Yeah, yeah. Don't be watching while you eat. Don't, don't like be eating around people that stress you out. Don't. Don't just mindfully grab things from the grocery store because you're hangry. You know what I mean? It's like, like be mindful and, and you'll start to see. So eating those nutrient dense foods mindfully, even how you prepare them, be more mindful. Take a moment before you eat, you know, to say grace, to pray or to take a breath. Put your fork down in between bites, little things like that, just to slow down.

Yeah.

See, your body will be able to tell you when it's full. It will be able to communicate to you. Do you want more or less of this? Because it has the time to do.

It and you're letting your body work for you. Yeah, it's totally. We live in such a fast paced world. And I've noticed as I've gotten older, well, also I've had kids, I've sped up my eating. But like back in the day when I was a kid, I would take my time. I was always like, Joe's the slowest eater. I'm like, I chew more and I think it helps with digestion, I've heard.

And were you shamed for it? Because some kids, when they're slow, they get shamed for it and that's why they speed up a little bit.

I didn't take it as. But I definitely, yeah, it was mentioned many times. I was like the slowest guy at the table.

Yeah, right. And so that affects us because we want to be like everyone else. And it's like actually Joe had it right. Little Joe was the one who was doing it mindfully and like taking his time. And that was actually, I mean that to me is a beautiful example of like, you know, a lot of times we, we know what we need. Like it's in our bodies and when we're young, that's typically a time where we're not as influenced by others.

That's true.

And we just follow the beat of our drum and it's. I would recommend everyone think back and kind of reevaluate. Well, what was I like when I was little? Around these foods or around the behavior of how with my own self.

And definitely, you know, it comes out with, you know, I have two little ones, a five year old and a one year old. So it's.

Oh, you're in it.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I know, I know you have, you're passionate about this as well and this is how pluck can tie in. And you know, you're introducing these to your kids as well. So that's what I'm going to do. And you know, it's not forcing any because there's definitely a relationship there with food that you want to let them explore their own worlds. You know, they're, they're human just like we are. And we've all gone through phases of foods and you know, our pallets are changing all the time. I forget how often maybe, you know, but it's, you know, your taste buds are actually adapting differently to, you know, often.

I think it'll be exciting when you start incorporating pluck with them too. Because what the feedback we get is first of all, like, you know, we all have those Days that go sideways, you know, like, oh, I didn't. Meal plan. I didn't. We're just tired. Let's just order pizza. Right?

Right.

And I usually kind of feel a little bummed out that I'm, you know, not being more. Giving my kids more. Something more nutritious. But then what I do is I just sprinkle pluck on it. And they love it. It tastes good. And they're like, cool. Thanks, dad. Like, you know, so, like, you can literally sprinkle it on French fries, You can take it, put it on anything. We put it on popcorn when we have family night, you know, movie night. And the kids love it. Like, they. Many of us can't even eat popcorn without it because it's so flavorful that. And you can't get that flavor for. From pretty much anything else that now things that are normally kind of plain, like eggs and popcorn and even toast, like, you put it on there and it just brightens it. It makes it so delicious and craveable that you'll see. You'll see your kids palate change. You'll see there. They'll actually get more interested in the food they're eating. And then hopefully, if. If there is something going on on bridges in general, hopefully you start to see any kind of health stuff go away, or you just see energy changes. You see clarity of mind. I mean, it's incredible when you start getting this natural mother nature's multivitamin into your kids and yourself. It truly is miraculous. But yet it's not a miracle. It's just Mother Nature.

It's Mother Nature. It's how it was intended, and we're just fitting right back into it. So it's a disconnected world in a lot of senses. So thank you, James, for enlightening, because I didn't know much of anything about this world, and that's what fascinated me when you said yes to doing the pod here. So I know after. After this, I'm getting some pluck. I'm gonna get the spicy one. I'm all about the spice, so, you know, that's. That'll be one of them. And I want to show up.

We have. Oh, I should send you. So you. You like hot. Like, really hot stuff.

That's my. That's my jam. Yeah.

Okay, you. I. You gotta email me your. Your address later because I, I just. We have a new flavor that's going to be coming out, and I need feedback.

Oh, yeah. I'm your man.

And it probably won't be out when this podcast comes out, but it will be getting closer. But it's habanero lime. And I. And I. I'll send that to you because it's hot.

Okay, I'm in. Thank you. Well, and a gift to everyone watching, listening. James is hooking you up. Like I mentioned earlier, 20 off. If you go to hustleandflowchart.com Pluck P L U C K and you just add the products. I was testing it out. And 20% off, so. And you'll learn a lot, too. There's recipes. Your podcast is on there. At Eco.

We have a blog actually starting with that just started, too, that I'm really happy with. It's really putting out a lot of topics that I think are really top of mind, like, you know, lead and salt. You know, those kind of topics that I think a lot of people are concerned about.

Yeah, well, soon. Soon to be. You also have a digital mind, kind of a digital clone of yourself that we're working on together.

Yeah.

And I mention Del, so. Yeah. Hopefully that shows up on. On there as well. Occasionally.

It will.

All right, James, I appreciate you so much. This was fun. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you. Thank you for having me on, Joe. Of course.

Sam.