Jason Fladlien - Frameworks To Obliterate Sales Objections

Now, here's what I didn't realize, guys. This was the greatest gift that the marketing gods could ever gave me. I was just in it for the money. But I didn't realize you do that, like 50 weeks in a row where you do four and five hour webinars. You get really good at handling objections.

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. Wiki wiki wiki.

Yo, yo, yo.

Welcome. Game time.

All right, you ready for one? You ready for, like, freaking mind bender?

I am. Are you asking me?

Well, I mean, I know your mind has already been bent, but. All right, my mind was bent 15.

Minutes ago when we finished up this interview.

You listening?

Whoever you are?

We don't know you because it's podcast land. There's not a lot of metrics about who's, you know, listening to what. It's all good. You are going to have your mind bent. Strap in. Absolutely. You don't really need notes like a pen. I mean, you can probably have, like a blank sheet, but we got the notes for you. But today we're talking to. Who are we talking about?

We're talking to Mr. Jason Fladlian. And this is somebody that I was actually following several years ago. Bought some of his courses back in the day. We actually shared a stage with him at War Room not too. Not too recently.

Not too recently.

Not too long ago. And we actually went into this interview thinking we're going to talk about one thing, and then it ended up going in a completely different direction, which we think is 100 times better and 100 times more valuable, which is psychology, persuasion, NLP. Basically.

Webinars.

We talk about webinars. Webinars is sort of like an overarching thing, but really the discussion is about how to obliterate objections by your customers to make the sale. Like, really? That is the smash. Smash. Well, obliterate is Jason's words. That's why I'm using it. But he obliterates objections. And this whole episode is literally a roadmap, a framework to systematically obliterate objections.

Strap in. You'll know why You're. You're. You're just gonna go on a ride here, and it's gonna be worth it. Get the notes. They're free. Two weeks of this episode going live. Any later, they're gonna be locked in our vault. They're still cheap to get. Go find them anyway. Go get the notes. Whatever are active and you'll just get the notes.

I feel like dancing as you're saying it.

Yeah, guys, I'm getting pumped up and I'm looking at the clock and I'm getting pumped up and I'm thinking about the episode and I'm still pumped up. Go to hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m p and get those notes. Hustleandfluidchart.com comp we took the notes for you. There's going to be a lot of them here.

Yes. And not as always, but as of right now.

As of now.

As of right now, Ahrefs is our sponsor and we love Ahrefs. Like we've always said, we've used it long before they were a sponsor. It is an amazing tool. Joe, what is one of your favorite things about Ahrefs?

Oh, God. I was gonna take a drink of water because I thought. Matt, you had this.

No, no, I like putting you on the spot.

Jerk move.

No, I love. Let's see here. Honestly. Okay. I'm gonna take a step out of the tool and really just talk about. Maybe we've already said this, but really just the content and the ability that. So someone who is, like, fresh. If you're not like, savvy on the SEO ness or content or even Google or just like writing anything online and publishing content, just go study some of the stuff that Ahrefs puts out. Yep. It's not a tool that should be daunting. It's not made for people that need to be like, pro status. Go to ahrefs.com. you will get there. It's a $7, seven day trial. You will love it. Go. Jason. How you doing, my friend?

I'm doing better than good.

That's a. That's a good start. Better than good. Yeah, man, that's. We're. We're already nerding out about kind of some of the similarities of what we do in our business models. And I think it's. This is gonna be a fun chat. Yeah. Going down the rabbit hole, this one. What about webinars? But, you know, a lot of our. Both of our business models, affiliate marketing, like, big time. And we both love it for obvious reasons.

Yeah. I'm sure there'll be a future round two episode sometime where maybe we even dive deeper into some of the affiliate marketing stuff we were talking about that we can't quite air yet because it's still a little on the underground. But let's talk about webinars on this one.

Definitely. Like, we've crossed Paths through. Through different stages. We were speaking. I know we were at a war room. We were talking about a couple. I feel like you purchased a bunch of Jason's products. Yeah, I think.

I don't remember the names of the courses that I bought, but I remember seven or eight years ago, I remember buying a course from you on copywriting, I believe. I think you had some training out there around copywriting, and I bought that, and I remember going through it and it being really good. But what I really liked about the content that you put out was it was no more than you needed. Right. There was no fluff. It was just straight to the point, here's what you need to know. And you got rid of all the rest of the stuff. And I thought that was so cool about your approach to product creation back when you were selling a lot of those courses.

Yeah, I don't have time to screw around places to go. And by the way, I like the fact, as long as the money clears, you don't have to know the names of my products to purchase them. Anybody listening right now? It's okay if you don't know the names of the products you buy from me.

Well, give us a little recap of how you got to where you're at now without going super long, because I know we have a lot of tactics, strategies around the webinar stuff, so.

But we also have notes about you being a hip hop singing monk, so we need to make sure that fits into the story, too.

Yeah, that is actually kind of how I segued into marketing was I was a monk first, a Hare Krishna monk, and that kind of. Before that, my life was a total wreck. I was like 20 years old and just a complete washout in life. Very depressed, had a very tough childhood and didn't know how to handle it. And so this whole concept of spirituality appealed to me because the material world wasn't really working for me. And when I got switched on and kind of got my head clear, I was like, I want to do something big. I felt empowered. And all I knew was rap and hip hop and music. I'd been performing my whole life, essentially just naturally called towards it. So I was like, I'm going to go. I'm going to start a hip hop record label in Muscatine, Iowa, which is the hotbed, as we know, of hip hop. Right.

I mean, who could have thought this idea wouldn't work? And I didn't think it through. I just went at it. And what had happened was I just could not make the Business work. I didn't know it was a business, by the way. Just wanted to produce music and put it out there in as many hands as possible. So I started going down the rabbit hole, like, how do I get this music out there? How do I get people to want to consume it? And then that's when I got introduced to the concept of marketing formally. And I was like, whoa. Before music, nothing had really called to me. But as a craft, and then the marketing was more intriguing to me than the music was. So initially I tried to use the marketing to do the music. But selling entertainment, I still don't know how to do that. I think it's the hardest thing in the world to do because you're guessing at people's tastes, which is infinitely harder than trying to solve people's problems. And you get paid about the same if you do one or you do the other. And that's when I was. I knew the Internet very well. As a child of technology, in a sense, I was always fascinated with computers. And I learned how to do a lot of stuff online at a very early age. And so I switched from marketing to Internet marketing. And then from that I got my first big breakthrough because I just wanted to make enough money to do Internet marketing full time. So I found myself where I was painting houses. 12 bucks an hour, six days a week, going there, painting the inside of houses, the outside of houses. And then before I would go to work and after I'd come home from work, essentially all I would do is try to work on my online business. And it was. I had no life. I would work one job to then be able to work the other job. So I got out of that trap by transitioning online to an article writer. I would write articles for other marketers for Search Engine Food. And I got really good at writing these articles. Very processed. And as to your point, the very first product I ever created was essentially, you want to write an article fast. Step one, do this. Step two, do this. Step three, do this. There is no step four. You're done. Now get out of my face.

It was it, and I sold it for four bucks. But what was weird about it, because I didn't know what I was doing. What was weird about it was people would buy the product and report back 15 minutes later. Because this was social media 1.0 Internet, right? This was on a forum where I posted the sales letter in a special offer section of the warrior forum, as it was the biggest Internet marketing forum online. And people would buy the product in the forum and respond back, this is pre Facebook, right? They, they would respond back in the form. They'd say, I bought this product 15 minutes later. I cut my article writing time in half. And I was like, whoa, this is awesome, because it would fuel a bunch of sales for me. So I got hooked on this idea of if I can find solve a very niche, very specific focus. Like, I didn't tell people how to make money with these articles or even where to post them, or even what to title them, just how to write them fast. So I fell in love with this concept of let me just knock out what I call one, one, one products. One problem with one solution to that problem and creating them in one setting. And I did that for like a year. I got really good at a lot of different tactical things online. And then the idea of a webinar hit me where I wanted to use webinars because before then I kind of did, but the Internet technology wasn't there, the bandwidth to stream the Internet webinars weren't there. And the technology was very unstable. So it hit that point where finally I felt like it was a viable platform. And at first I just used it for education. I took the same content that I had sold as $17 ebooks and started using that as educational content on a webinar to fulfill the same training, but in a different modality, being live online. And I found you could charge 97 bucks for the same information if it was fulfilled via webinars with interaction as opposed to just on an ebook. And then pretty soon I discovered that I could sell via the webinar. So essentially it's like a shift. The product that used to be $17 was now the core of the content of the webinar. And instead of trying to upsell them from 17 to 97, I could give away 17 live in front of their eyes essentially as a demonstration, and then sell them a 400 or 500 or $1,000 product. And that's really what I stumbled upon to. So all I did was for many years just did webinars any way, shape and form I could, any approach possible, selling any type of product I could. So like software products, services, digital products, physical products, and there was no manual back then on how to do webinars. I couldn't study it from anybody because nobody taught it. They would teach a teleseminar version of a webinar, which is kind of silly, right? It's like teaching somebody how to drive like a Toyota Camry and then putting them in a stock car race. Right. Those are two different modalities. They're not the same. Or they were old pitchmen from the stage who would try to bring their stuff online. And I'll tell you, people are polite in a room. They won't just get up and walk out on you. So they'll endure that kind of platform pitching, but they'll leave a webinar very quickly because there is no awkwardness of like stumbling over their neighbor to run out the door. So you have to do things a little bit differently. And so I did, and I figured out a lot of stuff along the ways and essentially, without even being aware of it, pioneered a lot of the technology from sales and communication in webinar presentations just as a result of that. And so accidentally, I became probably the most well known webinar sales giver and trainer on the planet. So I think that's pretty cool. And you know, I sold a hundred million dollars worth of stuff along the way too, so I'm pretty happy about that.

Yeah, I love that you're, you're. It sounds like you see webinars as a. Just a tool. It's a tool to create a transformation, solve one problem probably still within the webinar, and then, you know, onto the next thing. It doesn't matter what the heck you're selling, but it's a tool to sell at scale.

Yeah. And that's all that it is, by the way. And if I had it my way, guys, I would never do another webinar again as long as I live. But I don't know a more efficient way to make money. So I guess I have to do it. Pickle. Yeah.

Well, you did a webinar that, you know, our notes say $9.8 million in eight days. That's probably the $10 million one you were referring to. What was that webinar like? What. What was special about that one?

Everything. So that's your Haley's comment. Result of webinar. So it actually did break 10 million in eight days. But we didn't get a screenshot of it because we were on a leaderboard. We were promoting somebody else's product as an affiliate. And cart close, it was 9.8 million. So that was a cool screenshot that we could show off as, as actual validation and proof of the result. But when they actually totaled up the final count of sales, we had eclipsed $10 million. And so first and foremost, I'll tell you the number one most powerful thing about that webinar. And it had nothing to do with the webinar really at all. It had everything to do with timing. We stepped into a market where customers were buying it irrationally. What we were selling was Amazon training and there was no supply of it other than one seller. It was so brand new. And it was such at that perfect timing that I was smart enough to get behind the tidal wave and ride it like a surfboard. But I certainly didn't invent the tidal wave. And that's why it's so remarkable and it stands out. I am much more of a fan of getting behind things that are. Here's my favorite litmus test, guys. What are really bad marketers making lots of money doing? Because if they can do that super inefficiently, if we put a little bit of thought and tactic and strategy to it, I mean, if they're making a million dollars and they don't know their head from a hole in the ground, there's got to be some opportunity there, right? So I'm trying to find that and almost impossible to find. It is very rarely that that presents itself. So when it does, here's what we then did to get behind it. We did things like you guys will, like this one. We went down to our banker lady named Kami and we said, hey, Kami, we're going to put a million dollars into a brand new bank account. And we want you to write a letter and sign off that says if anybody calls in, they can verify the funds, that we give them permission to see the funds of the account. You can disclose it to them. And then I'd get on a webinar and I'd say, we have a guarantee of profit for you. If you do X, Y and Z and you don't make this amount of money, then we'll pay you this amount of money. And to prove that this isn't a gimmick, here's a letter from my banker. And then it shows the million dollar, what we call the million dollar guarantee, right? And nobody had ever seen anything like that. It's one of the most outrageous guarantees you'll ever see. We did it in many iterations. The first one though, was essentially, if your business doesn't make money, I'll buy your business from you and I'll pay you retail prices for your business. Like I would be a consumer of your business. I'll buy your products one at a time, off the shelf. Because if you can't make it work, I can make it work. And then I would, I would prove to them beyond a shadow of a doubt that this was an authentic legitimate guarantee. Not some weasel clausey gimmick with that million dollar letter from the banker. And we could only do outrageous crazy things like that because we knew the stakes. My saying is when it's raining money, you don't go inside and take a nap. Right. You stand on that field as long as possible with the biggest bucket you can. You catch all that money because it ain't going to rain forever. And, and that's what we did. So we did that. By the way, that's a guarantee on top of the vendor's guarantee. So this is us doing affiliate marketing here. We are guaranteeing above and beyond the product owners guarantee. That is insane. People had no frame of reference for that. And so they're like, wow, this is crazy. I can't imagine that. Another thing that we did was we essentially, because this product was $5,000 to sell. Okay. And it is near impossible, I don't care how good you are, to sell a complete stranger who doesn't know you from Adam a $5,000.

Product without ever talking to them individually online. Yeah, I'm talking one to many.

On a webinar. Taking complete strangers and getting to put $5,000 down. That just doesn't, that shouldn't be possible. Brand new customers, mind you, not people who had paid you before. Right. That should not be possible. But it was, in that one time, in that one instance at Mass, it was possible.

What we were able to do is we looked at that as we got a budget that we can spend on the customer's behalf in terms of fulfilling bonuses. We would put $1,000 up to per customer and we would go on a shopping spree. What I mean by that is we'd go to third party vendors and software providers and services and we'd say, let's negotiate a bulk rate on your services. We'll pay for it ourselves out of pocket and then we'll give it to the consumer for free as a bonus. And so if you actually added up all of our bonuses, the retail cost, the legitimate retail cost, not some fictitious overinflated value of the product. Right. But actual retail prices exceeded $5,000. And that was simply because we knew we could leverage the power of buying at bulk and then deploying those bonuses. Here's how crazy this guy. Guys, we had people, over a thousand people who had bought that course before. And the course originally was 3,500, then it went to 5,000. We had over a thousand people to rebuy the course again just for our bonuses.

That's when you know you nailed it.

That's when you know you nailed it. Now can you do that all the time? Hell no, you can't do that all the time. Because most of the time it's not going to warrant the effort. It's not going to net out in your favor. If you do that, it'll be a wash at best. And nobody wants to work for free. And so you can only do that when it's exceptional. But here's what's interesting. Every tactic and every little thing that we did, we put them all together for that promotion. But every single thing, we had done at least something like that prior one of those tactics, right? So it wasn't the first time that we guaranteed somebody else's product above and beyond a traditional money back guarantee. It wasn't the first time we've integrated third party, third party's bonuses into our packages. It wasn't the first time that we did, we did three webinars. So up until then, nobody had realized that.

You could do three webinars in eight days. So it's a bit misleading to say one webinar did 8 million.

They either bought on the first webinar or they came to the second webinar and bought. Or they came to the third webinar and bought. I'll give you one more little interesting thing that we did here. And I don't ever see this very often these days and I certainly would do it again if I wasn't so rich.

Yes.

I can place it in my old age now, but cart closed. I lived in Iowa at the time. Cart closed at midnight Pacific, which is 2:00am Central Time. And we did a webinar up until cart close. The cart close webinar. So up until 2 in the morning, with 1 second left, we were still selling the product on a webinar. And the product creators went to bed at like 9 o' clock that night. Right. So. And every other affiliate did too. So what does that communicate to the customer they are buying? Mostly because of how we're demonstrating that we're in their corner less so by what we're actually saying on the webinar. But that whole car close webinar concept is very valid and very powerful today. And I'm surprised vendors don't do that for their own products.

Because if there's anything that you should ever stay up late for and sell to the last minute, it's that. But here's something that's not obvious, guys, and this is not obvious. I found this out by accident, but it Is.

You can do four and five hour webinars and be making sales on the fourth and fifth hour, even though you shouldn't be able to. Right? I mean, what takes somebody four hours to decide to buy a product? I don't know. But when I started out, I was on this webinar and there was like 40 people left. I did the full presentation. I was done with my slides. I had nothing else to do. But these people were engaged and they were responding back to me and they were asking questions and they didn't want to end the webinar. So I was like, oh, okay, let me see what I can do. So I worked with them for another hour. And out of these 40 or 50ish people, I got one sale at 500 bucks. And I did the math in my head. I'm like, okay, 500 bucks an hour, that's good money for me at that time. That was fabulous money for me. Me. And there was still about 30 people left, and there was like five or 10 people talking and dialoguing and engaging. So I went another hour and I sold another person. And I'm like, okay. I mean, it's only one an hour, but it's 500 bucks per person. I just made $2,000 for two hours. And I'm on now hour number four of the webinar, and they're still talking and chattering, right? I'm like, wow. Our ability to underestimate the appetites of our customers.

Is marvelous. We are really good at underestimating how consumptuous our customers are. Now, here's what I didn't realize, guys. This was the greatest gift that the marketing gods could ever gave me. I was just in it for the money. But I didn't realize you do that like 50 weeks in a row where you do four and five hour webinars. You get really good at handling objections because that's all you're doing at that point in time. You have no script. And sometimes you get bored of saying the same thing. I mean, there's only so many ways traditionally that you can handle a money objection. If somebody says, this is too much. Right. You can do all the standard closes that you read in old sales books and all that nonsense, right? But after a while, you're just like, let me spice things up. So you just start saying stuff just to see what will happen.

Crazy stuff. Yeah.

And that's when the breakthroughs come in. Right.

What's the craziest thing that kind of worked out? Like, do you remember a line?

Yeah. So Eric. So I'll give you. I got so many of them, it's not even funny. But somebody says to me, you know, this is too expensive, Jason. And I started saying, you're right, it is too expensive if you're the wrong person. And they're like, well, what do you mean? I'm like, well, if you're the right person, this is better than free. But if you're the wrong person, this thing is the most expensive thing you could ever buy in your life, right? Or somebody would say, it sounds too good to be true. I'd say, it sounds too good to be false. And they'd go, okay.

Huh? Wow. You know, it just my. One of my favorites. I use it all the time. And so true. What I found is every good objection smash. Smashing an objection, because I don't want to handle them. We handle fine china, right, guys?

Right.

We obliterate objections is what we do. We smash them. And I have found that the best smashing of objections is the deepest level of truth. And so a lot of people are afraid that they're going to buy something and then they're going to fail miserably at it. They think. But what I've discovered is they're actually more often than not afraid of success, not failure. So I have closed so many people, and I says, is it failure that you're afraid of, or is it success? And this is what I'll say to them. No joke, guys. I've done this closed many, many times. I'll say, you know what failure is like? Failure is very familiar to you. You know exactly what to expect when you fail. But success, you don't know what success is like. You've got no experience with success. You have no frame of reference. And that's scary because you have no idea what it's going to be like if you were to start succeeding. And they're like, boom, my hairs on next start to raise on end, because that hits them right across the eyes. Noticing, again, we're not handling these objections. We're going right at them. Because I want to devastate the objection. Because that's what keeps my audience limited in their abilities is their impoverished model of reality, as we like to call it. So I attack it. Like, I'll give you another really good one. It really helped a client once. He says, jason, how can I be successful so I can make $10,000? And I said, how can you fail your way to $10,000?

This was in a seminar room, so I had the benefit of this. The first time I Saw him, he went into a hypnotic trance, like he lost his train of thought. And he was like.

You got him envisioning what that looks like now. And it seems like that's what each one of these clothes are doing.

There's the finer arts, the darker arts of persuasion, guys, is we tend to create behavior patterns or, sorry, belief patterns. So, you know, I'll give you. I'll give you one, your friend who can't get any women to go out on a date with him, right? And he's bald, and so he says, women don't like bald guys, right? And now he believes that stupid line. And even though a little bit of research, there's a lot of fat, old bald guys that have hot, young, supermodel women, right? I mean, I don't know how some of these guys are also broke too, right?

Yeah, yeah, it's true.

I don't know how, but clearly there's a limiting belief that is on that guy if he believes that to be true. And so oftentimes, what will happen is when you create a behavioral link to a belief, like, if I do this, then this will happen. Then you shut down. You don't go any further in that thought. You get stuck. You get trapped in your belief pattern. This is true for all of us, by the way. Success belief patterns are the same way. If you believe something, you get stuck in success. So I found that's really powerful to put somebody into a success loop and get them stuck there. So they're just succeeding all the time, right? But this belief pattern, he had never thought beyond failing. Now, can't you see how it's hard for him to move? I always envision him in this way in my mind, guys, it's like success is beyond this big brick wall that's in front of me. But I can't think about the future because all I see is this big brick wall in front of me. So oftentimes, here's what I'll do with clients all the time. I'll say, now that this problem is solved, what are your six next problems that you're going to face? And they're like, yeah, I don't know. And that's great, because we are taking it from the position of, you've solved this problem, what's your next problem? I'm not saying your problems are going to be over with. I'm giving you a bigger problem to deal with, and that's going to make your existing product problem look trivial. I'm giving you leverage on this internal state, which is Getting you stuck right now. And I did learn this in a book. Not directly. I mean a lot of this stuff I stitched together from Milton Erickson Conversational Hypnosis and from Richard Bandler nlp and from some of the Zig Ziglar from the sales guys and other marketing guys like Gary Halbert and Dan Kennedy. But a lot of this was fine tuned in the field where real money was on the line. And if I said the right thing, I can help somebody and get paid, or if I said the wrong thing, I wouldn't help somebody and both of us would be poorer as a result. That's true. And so I was able to discover some of these finer truths of how people form beliefs and then how those beliefs influence their behavior. And as a result.

It really unlocked for me how to get somebody to look at their problem from a different perspective. So what I just did, there was a technique called time dilation. They call it time dilation. Right now they're looking at their problem as they're in their present and their problem is in the present. What I did is get them to go into the future and look backward at their problem as having already been solved and also look forward to the next problem that they're going to face. I've created this new dynamic in how they can interact with the problem them a new frame of reference. When people get stuck, it's all they know. It's not necessarily serving them, but it's all they know. So if I can get them unstuck. So when I told the kid, he was a young kid, I said, how can you fail your way to $10,000? I changed how he viewed the problem. Not in binary terms of I either succeed or I fail. It's either black or it's white. Which is not how the world works. It's very nuanced and there's a lot of details. And it's not just two colors, right? I wish it was that easy sometimes, but it's certainly not. It's very complicated. So the world is right. And he started thinking in terms of not how do I get an outcome. He started taking terms of what action should I take. Because whether he failed or he succeeded now I took it one step further. I said, you're not ready to succeed yet. Success is $50,000 a month. So you can't succeed yet. You're only going to make $10,000 by your next month. Right. And that really got him going. That's me now challenging him to prove me wrong. But see if he proves Me. Right. And he fails his way to $10,000, or he proves me wrong and he succeeds his way to $50,000. I win either way. And, gentlemen, that's what we call the double bind in the business of webinars. I created a situation where if he follows my advice, he's going to succeed no matter what. There is. All outcomes lead to win.

It's engineered that way.

Yeah, you know, this is just basic level stuff. It's all no big deal or anything.

Well, it's all perspective changes. And it's like if you frame the problem as than it really is or in a new way, then it shows them new action items and ways that they can show up in the world that they never thought were possible before.

Yeah. I'll give you a really. Another good one is if you can get somebody to laugh at their problem, all of a sudden they have power over their problem or they feel like they do. Right. Most people, their problems are so scary to them that they're controlled by their problems. But the moment I can get somebody to break state and laugh at their problem. So you guys ever seen the Netflix thing that they did with Tony Robbins on. I'm not your guru.

That's right. Yep.

And there's that scene where the guy who's suicidal, he's freaked out, and then he looks down and Tony follows his look. And Tony sees that in that guy's vision is his shoes. And he's like, is it the red shoes? And that kid was like. He's like, is that why you want to kill yourself because of these hideous red shoes? And the kid laughs. What Tony's doing there is he's breaking the kid's state. So the kid's feeling really bad, and he's getting him out of that state by making him laugh. Now he's laughing, and now he can associate the problem with something that he can laugh at. Now the problem doesn't feel so serious. This opens him up to suggestions of different ways of operating. Ultimately, the end user is going to decide which way they want to operate, how they want to proceed. But generally speaking, you give people better choices and then they make better decisions. But until they have an alternative choice, they can't make a decision. But none of this is purely intellectual or informational. Most of this is done through emotion or through other states of accessing and feeling their way through the problem. They're not thinking their way through the problem. That's not going to be enough. We have to change the internal state and the external state, ideally of the problem in the situation. So there's a lot of leverage that we can employ in order to do that. But it's, you know, everybody knows certain basic truths, like if I breathe deeply and meditate a little bit, if I sleep better, if I drink enough water, if I eat healthy whole foods. Right. I'm probably going to be healthy. We all know that. Good luck doing that, though, right? I mean, I have to fight every single day not to want to just eat the junkiest food you can imagine. It's hard. And that's because we. We have many ways in which we process the world, and information and intellectualization is, is a. Is a. It's the most common way that we think in terms of. But it is probably one of the least effective ways to solve problems. Interesting.

Yeah. No, this whole conversation so far has been interesting. Just all these persuasion elements and just sort of perspective shifts. I want to talk a bit about webinars, so let's start with the actual.

That's what we've been doing. Didn't you.

Well, yeah, but I want to.

See.

How I'm messing with you right now. This is getting us to feel like this isn't heady stuff. This is having fun.

Right?

No, no. This is amazing. So when it comes to webinars, how does this fit into the presentation of a webinar? How do you structure the webinar so that these elements are sort of woven into the webinar?

Yeah. So the first thing that I do when I create a new webinar is I got to find the hook or the angle or the big idea. I use those words interchangeably. They essentially mean the same thing. And that is essentially, I need to make a user have a paradigm shift. I have to uncover what is the single greatest, biggest constraint or limitation that prevents this person from being successful, and how do I remove that and give them no other option but to succeed with what I'm teaching? Right. So that's the first positioning of the webinar. And then it has to. Now we have to go into the finer points. I can't. Even if I have the best solution, if it's already been said before by somebody else in the market, I can't really use it because a big part of how people make their decisions is on is it new or not. Right. And for better or worse, cognitively speaking, we have this.

Issue of our brains where we discount the familiar and we put on a pedestal that which is new. Even though oftentimes the recency of an idea is not necessarily indicative of how Valuable it is. But we're programmed for new new new new new. So most important to me is once I have that leverage, point is, how do I then show it up into the world in a unique way that that person has never heard of before? So that's the finer art of the positioning. Now this is probably way more advanced than what most people need to do. Let me put it to you another way.

If you can't ask somebody to pay you money without stumbling or getting scared and nervous, right. Work on that first. Okay.

That's the money right there.

That's gonna help you way more than some of this higher level stuff. Okay. But. Well, yeah, whatever. Like let's, let's show what, what it looks like at the top of the mountain first. So maybe that'll motivate us to want to climb up beyond the base camp. And so I'm looking for that idea of how do I not only remove and destroy the constraint. So I give them more reason to buy than reason not to buy. I make it cost more not to purchase than it does to purchase. How do I do that with removing their biggest limitation? So I got to figure out what that limitation is. Then I got to figure out how to set it up to destroy that limitation. And then how do I do that in a very unique way? So that's where I start. I start with that hook, that angle, and then from that the whole webinar is going to flow. Generally what I will do is then start thinking of the offer. So I got the offer. How am I going to set this up? So the offer is the punchline, the payoff to this hook, this angle, Right. How am I going to set this up? So I'll give you an example with a real world webinar I'm working on right now. And I don't always get it right. I get it wrong probably as often as I get it right. But a webinar is like a living, breathing organism. If you show up in the marketplace and you're sincere in your, in your ability to serve and help, people are very forgiving. If you don't quite hit it on the nose the first time, they're very open to you trying it again a second, a third, and a fourth time. So I don't have to be right right away, I can make it right, but I prefer to be right right away. I try my best because it's a lot less work, but I'm prepared to iterate, iterate, iterate. So I got this idea right now. So I'm Promoting somebody else's product. It's a fabulous client of mine. I've worked with her for many years. Her name's Marisa Murgatroyd. She has a product called Experience Product Masterclass. It launches one time a year and a half. We are doing a webinar as an affiliate for her. Now, one of my hacks is I don't let the product creator on any of my webinars when I'm selling their product. Two reasons. One, I am going to sell it different than they've ever sold it before. So I don't want them to bring in what they do into what I do. This is not an ego issue. It is just simply because I want to have the full control of the narrative. That's the first reason. But the second reason is there's this effect in the marketplace when somebody who didn't create the product can speak so intelligently about that product and can assume the role of the salesperson.

I can get away with things as a salesperson that I can't as a product creator. Now, if I'm both the salesperson and the product creator, I have to compromise both of those positioning. I would rather be the dirty marketer and put the product creator on the pedestal, then try to both be like, this saintly product creator and somehow or another, this closer, this sales closer.

It's like, you don't have to like me, but I'm just guiding you to the thing that I know you need. And you know you need bad cop, good cop.

That's what it's going to take. That's what it's going to take. I'll take the role of bad cop. And again, even if it's true, if I say it about myself, it's not nearly as powerful if I say that about you. And we all typically, if we're not sociopaths, we all typically are reserved when it comes to bragging about ourselves, which is good, but not good for sales. And so I can brag about somebody else. So, anyway, so I'm working through her product now. Here's the core hook of her product as she uses it. And this is a pretty good hook. And it's essentially she studied, like, why people are addicted to apps and games and that kind of stuff online, like Facebook and social media and like Candy Crush or whatever. And she said, how do we make our information products sticky and ethically addictive like that? And she's figured out a way that people, 80% of her customers, complete her or course, which in the information business, 3% of customers typically complete a course on average. That's the industry standard.

And for whatever reason, you know, it's most people who buy products, even the $5,000 product I was talking to you about earlier, I would say 10% of our buyers didn't even log in one time.

Yep. And that's pretty standard. Yeah, we've seen the same. And that's insane. Yeah. So price doesn't matter. It's something else.

There's so many things else. And before anybody gets too judgmental, because I've been in seminar rooms where people get judgmental, I'm like, well, just open up your Kindle and let's see how many books you've bought that you haven't even read yet. Right. This is a normal state of being for humans to collect things at a rate that they far exceeds their ability to consume. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes the act of buying is enough for a person. You know, retail therapies, in a sense. Right. But in this instance, she didn't like that, and she wanted to do something about it. And she was crazy enough to work her ass off to come up with a solution for that. And so she has this outstanding solution now, and now she wants to sell it to customers. So essentially, it's like, hey, if you want to create an information product, instead, you should create an experience product. Ooh, what's an experience product? Okay, I'm interested. Right. So that's her hook. That's her angle. So here's my angle that I'm going to attempt to pull off. I don't know if I'll be able to do it or not, but I've discovered that not limiting yourself and just trying something out tends to almost always yield a better result. So from another perspective, because I used to do a lot of writing and work with a lot of writers, a lot of people have trouble writing, and that's because they're trying to edit while they're writing. They can't give themselves freedom to express creatively uncensored. You know what I mean?

I don't know why, but that's just the way that it is. And so in the marketplace, I'm just going to creatively seek what I think would be the greatest win if I could pull it off, and if I miss it, they let me come back up and try it again. So I'm going to attempt to make the audience believe that I'm teaching them how to be better consumers. Meaning here's why you can't complete courses and here's what it would take for you to be more successful with the courses that you buy. So therefore, you can buy less courses and get more out of the courses that you do buy. You're not spending $10,000 a year on your info product addiction. You're spending 2,000. And you're not like making $1,000 off of those 10,000 in purchases. You're making 20,000 or 50,000 or whatever. Right? But what they don't know is all of this is a setup for me to reveal that I've now given you a superpower. Do you want to save the world with it or do you want to stay in your little shack and do nothing? Right. This whole solution to being an information marketer and creating information products, that's the ultimate appeal that I'm going to build up to. That is going to be revealed about 50 to 60 to 70 minutes into the presentation. But my audience is coming in believing that overtly they are learning one skill. And they are, and it's valuable. But covertly, I'm also teaching them a different skill simultaneously. And then I'm going to try to collapse those two things on top of each other. So that's my big idea. That's my hook. That's my positioning to create that frame of. If anybody comes to this webinar, I'm very confident that they're going to walk out a better person, they're going to be a better consumer, they're going to make better purchasing decisions for themselves. But I also believe that that's the best way to enlighten them to be excited about considering doing this model to make money online. And that's what I'm going to attempt to pull off. So that's an example of an idea with positioning and with an angle. It takes me about 40 hours to develop these webinars.

So is that. And it sounds like the hook is there to basically smash something that's in their mind already.

So here is the common objections with creating information products.

Let me count the ways that people shortchange themselves. I have such disdain for these objections. It's like, love the sinner, but hate the sin. Right? That's how I feel about this, because I think it's absolutely. But I was like this at one point in time. So some people say, oh, I don't have anything worth it worthwhile to share. You know?

Who?

Me? An expert? Right? Like, they have such a poor view of themselves. Like, I'll give you guys a clothes I use all the time. I'll say, I'll go to a. I'll, like, kill an objection. I'll set up the money objection. And then I'll say, is it the money? Is that why you wouldn't do this? And I'll say, well, listen, if I could have a crystal ball and you could see yourself six months into the future and you were $50,000 richer, you would absolutely put $10,000 today down on this, wouldn't you? And they're like, yeah, of course. So it ain't the money. Is it the time? And then I'll talk to them. I'll say, listen, the one thing that I know is certain that each of us have less and less time every single day. Yet somehow, some way, some people, even though they have next to no time, are being able to succeed. So it's not the time. So what is it then? What is it really? Is it the belief you don't believe me? You think the testimonials are fake, doctored, or somehow other twisted or manipulated? Is it that. That you don't believe me? That I'm making up up claims just to try to get you to spend money with me? Is it that you don't believe me, or is it something else you don't believe yourself? Well, when it comes to you and your belief, I have enough for the both of us. So if I have to pick you up, throw you over my shoulder, and drag you kicking and screaming across the finish line, damn it. If that's what it takes, then let's go. I'm willing to do it. Are you right? So this is literally the close I used for the $10 million webinar. That was the close. And people might think that I'm dressing this up for the podcast. I talk to the audience that way. I do. Right.

I believe it.

Again, to your point that you said earlier, I find that if we can go straight at it, it's always more effective. So if customers are thinking that I'm making things up, I'll just say, you probably think I'm making things up. I'm like, let's not pretend that you're not thinking that so that I can connect with you. So that's the belief, the challenge of somebody's lack of belief.

And so I know that in anything that we sell, there's a lot of people have this poor view of themselves, which is not true at all. Like, another clothes that you can crush that with is that, you know, and I use this clothes a lot so that at one point in time, you couldn't stand up you couldn't walk, you couldn't talk, you would drool all over yourself, and you couldn't even go to the bathroom on your own. So you sat in your own poop, right? And then somehow, some way, without an instruction manual, without a coach or without a mentor, you were able to figure out how to put one one foot in front of the other. And before you know it, you were walk, talk, skipping, hopping, chewing bubble gum all at the same time. And you could even go to the bathroom on your own, right? You are capable of the most amazing things because you did that. Most of you did that before you were 4. Now, some of you, it took to. You were 7 or 8 to figure that out. But that's okay. You still got there, right? So don't tell me you can't do this, because this ain't that, right? So that's time dilation in the past, taking them to something that they did, helping them see the perspective that they're capable of amazing things if they're in the right state of mind. But I know no matter what, people are going to sell themselves short and think that they can't create an information product. So if I go out that product, if I go out that problem and do it the way most webinar trainers would do it, which would try to convince them with the facts and the statistics and try to show them the methodology of how to do it. And a lot of this is stuff I tried in the past and it worked okay, but I'm not okay with okay, right? It's like these are the things that normal people are doing, but they're trying to solve it purely from an information perspective, an intellectual perspective. But I am going to try to do it a completely different way.

Not challenge them or hit it head on, but kind of allow them to come to the conclusion that it's less important what the information is. It's more important how the information is presented, right? Now, if I come out to a webinar and say, listen, today I'm going to give you a big reveal, a big aha and insight to your problems. And it's that it's not the information that you're publishing that makes a difference, is how you present it. Okay, webinar's over with now. Use that insight and go make a million dollars. Right?

Good luck.

It's not that easy. We have to, because these beliefs that hold people back are so insidious, we have to take 55 minutes to set it up to reach that payoff. And that's what we do. Right. So I am going to, during that time, also bring up all the other limitations. That's the only limitation. There's other limitations. Like I don't know how to drive traffic to these products. Right. And I often say, don't drive traffic. Why don't you put people into these products instead? Right. I don't know what this drive traffic means. I mean, you don't have to have a license to do this.

Do we need to get in cars for this operation? I don't know.

Connect this with people. And maybe that's your problem. You're thinking of this as traffic instead of souls that you can help. Right. I do that kind of stuff all the time.

Again, you're calling it out. I feel like you just put. You're really good at putting new perspectives or the perspective. They really, maybe they believe deep down, but they're not communicating it. They're not actually having it in the forefront of their mind.

Yeah. So here's my philosophy that really shaped me early on is a lot of people in marketing try to teach you to dumb it down or, you know, speak like they're a fifth grader or a second grader or these days, a kindergartner. Every year it seems like it goes down a level that you're supposed to speak to people with.

Everybody's just getting dumber.

Idiocracy, right?

Yeah. You know, that's what people say. In some instances, it's funny. But in other instances, there's more breakthroughs and revelations and revolutions that are happening mentally now and scientifically in technology than any point in history. Right. So I guess it depends on where you look at it. But. But I have always said you can either stoop down to somebody's level or you can pull them up to a different level. So I would rather bring somebody up to a new level than stoop down to their level. Now, initially, that makes your job 10 times harder because it's easy to cater, it's easy to pander, it's easy to quote, unquote, dumb things down or water things down or try to simplify things. Right. So up front, you will have more of an advantage if you try to make it simplistic. But long term, if you can figure out how to, instead of looking down on your audience, get them to be able to rise up to the occasion. Right. You will do far better in this business long term. Although, like I say up front, it's like 10 times as hard. I've learned how to get excited about things that are slightly harder than what most people can do, because then most people won't do them. So if I can do them, I get massive advantage in leverage in the marketplace. So that's one way to re pattern a hard thing and actually make it feel like it's easy. And so that's what I look at in that situation. But with this, I'm going to set that frame up and I'm going to build this up so they're going to realize that it's not a traffic problem, and it's not okay, this isn't trickery. This is affirming the truth in the most powerful way possible. It's not a traffic problem. It's not that you don't have things to say. It's not that you don't have the. The proof or this. And that it is fundamentally there's something systematically wrong with an industry where 3% of people who spend lots of money can't even complete the program, much less get any success with it. So now you have the ability, and you know what it would take instead, to engineer and structure an 85% completion rate instead. And what could that do for you? You literally could take the same old information, the most boring, blase information that everybody's peddling, and put it in this framework, and it would have exponentially more impact than it would previously. So it's less the information, it's more the transformation. And that's what I'm going to build up to, and that's what I'm going to reveal. But that's going to take time, right? People think an hour is a long time. I think an hour is marvelously short when it comes to completely shifting somebody's belief, right? It is hyper efficient. If we can do it in an hour, and we can't do it in an hour for most people, but if we can do it in an hour, we can get it to some people. And that's where the conversation starts. So people are like, who goes to these long webinars these days, Jason? Only the people that need the help the most, which is the best part of your market, that's who goes to these webinars, right? And an hour is not even close to enough to really, truly change people's lives. Guys, it drives me nuts. Like, we will be in war room together and somebody will stand up and boldly declare, nobody goes to webinars anymore, as they've been in a seminar room for eight hours straight that day.

What the hell do you think you've been doing?

It's like, what okay, nobody does this. Even though you flew 2,000 miles on an airplane to stay at a hotel room just to listen to dorky Internet marketers like me talk about goofy stuff that most of the world thinks is a scam. Right?

It's pretty good tying a boat right now. Everything we do, right? No, but, yeah, I mean, you're pushing.

A hook and then just have the. The bonuses in the core offer speak to what that conclusion is in a way. And sometimes, guys, I think we overcomplicate things, and sometimes I feel like I do it just for the craft more so than for the outcome. So I have to be cautious about this. But ultimately, if you can make your product feel like it's a dollar and they only have to pay a dime in order to get it, you could theoretically close the lights out. You could sell everybody. And so ultimately, all this is done as a setup to get somebody invested in understanding the outcomes and then selling them a dollar for a dime. And ultimately, for most people, again, most people that have webinars, most people that struggle with webinars shouldn't do a webinar because they don't have anything that is truly compelling enough to say for somebody to sit through 45 minutes right now. What's interesting is there's this principle of persuasion called commitment and consistency. If you get somebody to sit for 45 minutes, their ability to buy goes up tremendously because they say, well, I've invested 45 minutes. If I don't buy, I've wasted the last 45 minutes of my life. Right. So this is how you could be really bad and still do okay in webinars because the system itself can produce sales even with principles that you are not even aware that you're utilizing. Right. But ultimately, if you have something that is paradigm shifting. My outcome of every webinar that I teach the clients is this. Regardless of whether somebody buys or not, I want somebody about 15 to 30 minutes into the webinar to say, oh, my God, I've heard 15 experts talk about this topic for 15 hours, and I've spent $15,000 and on this 15 minutes together. So far on this webinar, I've gotten more insight from this presentation than all the rest of them combined. Right. That's paradigm shift. How do we make that happen? Turns out it's a lot easier if you have a target that you're shooting at than a fuzzy blindfold that you have on your head and you're shooting here and there and everywhere. Right. That's what we attempt to do. That's why you'll find oftentimes the breakthroughs are very small, not very grandiose and big. Because we can create a paradigm shift on a topic if we're, like, barely the only one even addressing that topic. We own the market immediately the moment that we claim it, because we're the only one focusing on that. We just have to drill down and really view what is the content I'm going to teach as it relates to the biggest limitation that this market segment has that's limiting them from moving forward. Because if we remove that constraint, then they will naturally want to move forward. And then all we have to do is convince them that moving forward with us is a better deal than moving forward on their own, which is really easy to do. Like take the Experience product masterclass. I will teach them every single thing that they need to do in order to do experience products on their own. But they would not have a community if they didn't buy the product. They wouldn't have all the software that we've negotiated for them that they get for free that they would otherwise have to pay for and figure out how to configure. They don't have the specific training and the configurations as it relates to this. Right. They don't have any accountability because if somebody pays me two grand, I'm not going to neglect them. I'm going to make sure they're taken care of. Because, I mean, that's how my kids get fed, right?

So they don't have any of that. And for some people, they're not going to have an option. They can't pay for it at that time in their life, for whatever reason, they can't afford it. So they're still better off. But so many people are going to be like, it will be more expensive in time and in money for me to do this on my own, even though I've gotten the whole game plan right than it would be for me to pay somebody. Case in point, when Covid hit, I decided I was going to cut my own hair.

Yeah, interesting. I watched this YouTube video a couple of. I did an okay job, guys. It really was not too bad. But I put about two hours in it to cut my own hair, and it was half as good as my barber would be. And my barber, I now have a new sense of respect for him and I'm excited to pay him what I originally thought was a lot for a haircut. 45 bucks, right?

That's about what we're doing at that.

As like the deal of the Century.

Well, there's a reason why we're both wearing hats right now.

I'm not cutting my hair again, guys. I'm not changing my oil and my car wash. I got a Tesla now, so that's moot. But I wouldn't change the oil if I did have a car that had oil in it, right? I haven't cut my grass in over a decade.

If I ever have to do laundry whatsoever, it says something has went wrong in my household. You know, it's like there are so many things that it is better to pay to get some or all of it done than it is to try to hold on to your money white knuckled and somehow think you're getting a better deal. Now there's like 3% of the population that wouldn't pay a nickel to see an ant swallow a bale of hay, right? Like, we're not going to sell them.

But most people are reasonable and they would rather pay for things that will save them time and money than not pay for those things. Especially if we take an hour first to properly educate them on the things that we want to sell them and how they relate to them and how if they're the right thing for them or not. Because if they're not the right thing, I don't want to sell anybody anything. But I want to educate people. So they self select and they say, oh yeah, that's perfectly me. Or if they opt out and say, that's not me at all. Fair enough. And that's another close I use, guys. So when we go down to cart closes, essentially I'm like, you know what the worst word is that I could ever hear from you? The word is maybe. I would rather you tell me no than you tell me maybe because you're at least making a decision. But most people live in the land of indecision, right? And indecision does not help you. It does not help me. I get that you're sitting on a fence, but my question to you is why it can't be comfortable on that fence? Like, who wants to sit on a fence for any period of time? You probably get hemorrhoids if you sit on a fence.

Oh, yeah.

I just want you to get off the damn fence. I don't care if you land in yes territory or no territory. I just want you to make a decision. So tell me what I need to ask you right now or share with you right now to help you make the decision that is best for you. Whether it's a no or a yes is of little consequence to me. It's just that you make a decision. And so that's some closed language that I will utilize from time to time. And that is, I firmly believe that's true, is people have a very challenging time with making decisions because they're afraid they're going to make the wrong decision. Even no, for some people is a very scary decision. If I don't buy what will happen then, it's sometimes scarier than yes, what'll happen then. Right. So it's safe to do nothing. And it's the easiest option. I mean, even putting your credit card into an order form takes some sort of effort. And, like, not buying at all takes zero effort. Sure, yeah. So we're at a war with the.

Inability to get somebody to move. It's Newton's law of motion, where an object at rest stays at rest. So we're fighting inertia. And that's the damn hardest sell we ever have to make, is getting somebody to do one little measly thing in one direction. Because the safest, easiest thing anybody could ever do in the short term is nothing. And sometimes people think learning is doing something. Learning is getting you prepared to do something. But in and of itself, listening to this podcast, if it doesn't result in any change in your operations or behavior, is essentially a waste of all of our time today. Right?

Correcto. Moon.

Yeah.

Please take action, everyone.

Yeah, I mean, we're at the hour.

I want you to take 100% action. I want you to take 1% action on the one thing that will get you 100% better results. Right? Absolutely. So you're gonna have to figure out what that is, though.

Well, we're at the hour mark right now. I think we're actually a minute over, but I want to make sure that everybody knows where they can go, check you out, learn more about you. Hopefully we can get you back for round two at some point, because this has been fascinating. But where can people go? Check you out, learn more from you, buy your stuff.

I'm glad you asked that. So it's going to set them back a lot of money, but it's for nine bucks, I think, on Amazon. I got this book. It's called One to Many. It is. Specifically, it is one of the most common models of structure on a webinar that I do. Literally, I break it down to four parts. Introduction, content, transition, close, and then each part has four or five objectives that you should accomplish, and I literally tell you what those are. So if you want paint by the numbers, Webinars, which I. I did not give at all today. Then you can take the craziness and the psychology that we broke down today, pair it with a framework and structure on Amazon. Just plug in my name or one to many and you'll be able to grab that book there.

Perfect.

Love it.

Yeah. If there was anything like this episode, because mind explosions. But that was like, we just. Tip of the iceberg. So get the book, Jason. Thank you. Let's definitely do some more rounds in the future. I feel like there's a lot more in the team.

Absolutely.

All right, man. Have a good one.

You did.

So that was a master class.

I'm just taking a quick little breather here. Yes, that was.

That was one of those ones where I think we asked like maybe four or five questions and then we just shut up and listened because, like, you guys just heard what he was saying. Like, holy crap, that was amazing.

And then what you did not hear is right after he was finished, I just quickly asked him, got a longer answer, but I was like, so what are you reading? Because you mentioned NLP and all that stuff. So just a quick note, because this is something we typically sometimes add in the episodes, and this was the one. I was like, all right, Jason has obviously done his research and down the rabbit hole. I'm like, where are you studying this stuff? And he basically said, YouTube. Richard Bandler. So he's one of the co founders, creators of nlp and he referenced that a lot, but he said basically, YouTube, like, check it out. Watch his videos. And not necessarily for the stories or the specific things that Richard's saying in those videos, but more for the context and watch a lot of them. So you kind of see the same stories presented in different ways, but it's more of the way he's presenting and all the different nuanced things that. Which encompass, like, what NLP really is. Yeah. So I'm going to go down the rabbit hole because I've been starting to read some NLP books, but I think hearing and watch. Watching are going to be something different.

Yeah, no, it was. It was amazing. I'm in the same boat. I love the NLP stuff and I've always. I'm always kind of like doing some research, figuring out what the best program to go through. I mean, the. The Maxwell Maltz.

Psycho cybernetics. That's probably like my favorite sort of like, intro into that world.

It's awesome. And I think it probably goes into some different types of things too, you know, theater.

But I haven't I haven't studied much. Much. Bandler. I do know that a lot of the stuff Tony Robbins teaches is sort of based on the teachings of Bandler and Grunder and Maxwell Maltz and all these other people that we're talking about. But this episode was interesting because I think you and I both came into this episode thinking we were going to take it in one direction. But then when we started to hear Jason talk, we're like, no, this is the better direction to keep it in.

We kind of. There's one of those. There's some folks, and you kind of just get a sense sometimes you're like, you know what? They got something good up their sleeve, and they have a flow. What's. What's. Why would we step in his way? Yeah, really. Is what it comes down to, because he was flowing. Why would we, like. All right, Jason, stop for a second. Let's do our agenda here.

Well, he even said at the end of the episode, once we stopped recording, he's like, yeah, I don't really open up this much on most episodes. Something about you guys.

Hey, Sidi has been working a lot. So he got like. I think this has been a good outlet for him to just, like. It's. It's probably. You know what it is. He's been working on that offer, which is really cool, because at the time of this recording, I don't think we're actually promoting at the time. But we've had Marisa on the podcast, what, a year or two ago, and we promoted it once, and it is everything he just said, you know, Marisa's course. So go get it. You know, like. And I don't think we even have an affiliate link available, or. We do, and maybe we'll throw it in the show notes.

Yeah.

But whatever. Just, like, if you're interested, go get it. But it was cool to hear.

Just.

Just him working through something he's actively working through. He told us what his hook is, how he's. It was like this, like, interesting dynamic, like, here's how to do a webinar. But it was very meta in that he was describing how he's literally writing a webinar right now. And he basically told us after the fact. I think I just, like, totally needed an outlet, essentially, because he's been working on that webinar so much. He probably just, like, told you, told us all the foundational elements, all that, the nuanced stuff that he's putting into that webinar. Yeah, it's really cool.

I mean, originally, the original Game plan for this episode was we were going to break down sort of a step by step webinar game plan. Right. Like we wanted to know, how are you driving traffic into webinars? How are you getting people to actually show up? How long should the webinars be? What should we do with the replay process? Automated or live? Right. That was kind of the flow we were gonna, we were gonna go with. But when he started talking about the NLP and the psychological elements and here's how we absolutely, absolutely obliterate objections and all this kind of stuff, we're like, we need to stay on this vein. We need to talk about the psychological elements of selling. And this stuff really can work towards webinars. Sales, videos, sales letters, selling in person, being on stage. All of it applies with what he was talking about. You know, if you want to learn about step by step processes for webinars. We've talked to Sam Bell about that, We've talked to David Schloss about it. We've talked to Joel Irway about it. We've had Casey Zieman's been on talking about webinars. We've had multiple people come on and actually talk about how to structure webinar, how to get people to come on webinars, how to do the replays. Automated verse live. Like, we've sort of beat that horse to death. So when Jason started talking about the NLP stuff, we're like, this is it. This is the rabbit hole we want to go down with him.

Yeah. And this is the next level. And like, what Jason said too, he's like, I'm going to show you the look at the top of the mountain. So if you're down at base camp or even lower than base camp, that's cool because you could perfect, like your clothes.

Yeah.

And you could literally swipe the closes that he was giving. And actually, even better, they're in the notes for you. Or I hope that sue put them in the notes because I don't think she's taking notes on this particular banter section. But get the notes hustleandflowchart.com comp and you're probably going to get all a bunch of closes, a bunch of objection smashers. And yeah, I mean, you're going to be a badass. I mean, there's. This is cool. I want to listen to it.

Yeah. One, one thing that I love that he said about like the, the actual marketing element of it is like, what are bad marketers making good money at? Right. And it also, when we had when we had Rich Sheffern on I don't. We've interviewed Rich three times now. We had our first podcast interview. We did our live stream with him, and then we had him come back with Jay Abraham for that episode. And I believe it was on the live stream when he talked about this, but he made a comment about setting up your business for the worst version of yourself. Right. Like, the person that is the lazy. Doesn't feel like getting up, doesn't feel like doing anything today, wants to sit around and play PlayStation all day. What business can you set up for that person? That's not how you're gonna operate every day, but you should build a business that could be operated by that person.

Right.

And this same concept, I think there's sort of this overlap where that gap just bridged in my mind as Jason was talking about it, of this. This concept of, like. Like, what are the things that people are making good money doing, but they're actually kind of bad at the marketing, but they're making money in spite of the fact that you're doing bad marketing. Go in that direction, because all it takes is good marketing.

And it's true. I mean, he said it's, you know, they're difficult to find. And, yes, like, if you're trying to make a $10 million launch out of it, that's probably very, extremely difficult. But think of all the different niches out there, like, the different spaces where you can kind of, like, take this model. Not kind of take this model. Take this damn model. And going away from the no maybes, no kind ofs, no you know, that's indecision, and that's Jason saying that. And. But take that. Take what you just learned here, and you can apply it in a variety of places. Maybe as an affiliate. As an affiliate, as a product owner, Team up with someone and use this framework in a different space. Look for opportunities. You could take this anywhere. We're all humans, but at the same time, not everyone is equipped with this kind of savviness with persuasion and then a tool like a webinar.

Yeah.

And another thing that he talked about, he actually didn't, I don't think. Mentioned this on our podcast, maybe very briefly, but doing our research, we know this is sort of a concept that he talked about in the past, is that you don't actually need to be a good salesperson. Like a. Like a. A slick salesperson that you feel like has a good close rate. Like, you know what I'm talking about, right? Like, the. The people that Are pulling out all the gimmicks and, like, sound very polished. When I get to the pitch portion, you don't need to be that person. In fact, the more relatable you are and the more you kind of stumble a little bit and seem like a real person to people, probably the better you're actually going to do.

Totally. Yeah. And you just reminded me something that I didn't say in the podcast because it was kind of like this picture he was painting in my mind. And I knew that would just take us way over time because his answers were very thorough and awesome is essentially like, what he was describing. It seems like for the first hour of a webinar, you're safeguarding yourself on that. You're doing all this prep work to essentially change their perspective, or not change, but give them a new perspective. You got the hook, but then you basically get into.

How you're helping them, how you're helping them progress into something of a greater value for themselves. And, you know, he was like, think about, that's a freaking hour, hour and a half before you ever even get to the product or the pitch of the thing. So, like, I had this thing, I'm like, yeah, you're literally doing everything you can to get momentum, pushing this massive boulder from someone who probably, you know, they like the hook, but at the same time, they don't know what to do. Now once they're there, they. They saw this cool hook, this thing that they really want, but it's like, shit, you really have to spend an hour with them, maybe even longer if it's a more expensive product. And your whole job is just to get them starting to think enough like, how you want them to. To set up for that close or that offer that you have. Yeah. And yeah, you don't have to be a slick salesman, but like you said, you probably do want to have, you know, get good at selling and take some scripts like he just gave you and like, perfect that. So you're not gonna stumble there.

Well, I think he was more implying get comfortable selling. Not necessarily getting better at the selling, but actually if you feel really uncomfortable, you're nervous, you're stuttering over your words, you don't wanna say the price, you feel very uncomfortable. Get over that before doing this stuff. But you don't necessarily have to be polished. You don't have to be a salesperson.

You just gotta, yeah, be the comfort and. Or be comforted. But. But yeah, that whole lead up, I think that's why a lot of folks were like, why Do I have to have a webinar so long? Why is the sales page so long? It's like, seriously, that's the education phase. That's why this whole podcast, we didn't even talk about it all full webinar. We talked for an hour about the. The psychology, the nlp, all the psychology. And a lot of it was the front. I mean, there's a little bit of the. But like, it wasn't like, here's a step by step process for the entire webinar. That would have taken probably three hours. Probably.

Yeah.

So which I think he already agreed to be back. You heard it. It was on the recording. So we'll probably have him back.

We forced him to say yes, we'll have him back.

We actually want to go down the whole affiliate marketing rabbit hole with him. Deeper because he's a pretty prolific affiliate marketer. Very similar business model, but some of the stuff he told us before we hit record. Next level.

No, he's well progressed.

Yeah, he's. I mean, similar business model, but his methods. Fricking next level compared to us. So excited to chat about that stuff, man.

I'm pumped. I don't know. I don't have anything else to say other than if you're get the notes. So. Hustleandflowchart.com comp. You got a couple weeks, it's free. And then we have Easy Webinar as our sponsor. Good buddies over there, Casey and the team. So easy webinar. If you're doing webinars, I mean, this is a pretty good episode to tack onto this thing. You do any kind of webinar you want. I mean, go to the page. If you just go to easywebinar.com hustle. Maybe throw another slash at the end for good measure, just so you get to the right page. That's easywebinar.com hustle. You can see a full scoop of what this thing does for you. Easy webinar. It lives up to the name and it delivers all those types of webinars for you and you get some cool, sweet discounts, 20 to 25% off, depending on what you choose. So if you want to put this stuff into action and actually go test some stuff out, you need a tool. That's a good tool too. Yes.

Go do it. And if you enjoyed this episode, which I'm sure you did, because I can always tell which episodes you enjoyed.

Yeah. He sees through you, I see.

Yeah.

Weird.

If you enjoyed it though, we would love it if you would help spread the word Tell a friend to listen to this one. Leave us a review on itunes. Subscribe in itunes or podcasts, wherever you like to listen to podcasts. Just those little steps really, really help us and inspire us to keep having high level conversations with people.

So.

So, hey, it might help some other folks that you know too.

Exactly.

Think of the perspective changes that you just had through this episode. What's one other. Who's one other person you could share it with? Yeah, go do that.

Please do it.

That's all. Have a great day.

Bye. Bye.

Thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually, actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com, find this episode that you just listened to and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

Go get it.

Wiki Wiki. We love you.