Jeff Vacek - Growing Digital Businesses With Physical Products

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Mount Wolf and Joe Fear. It's that time again.

Hey, it's that podcast time thing again.

Yeah. Let's do some hustling and some flowcharting.

What does that look like?

I don't know. This are. We just, like, describe the scene right now? That's what it looks like.

We're sitting in two chairs. I have a pink microphone in front of me. You have a boring black one.

Yeah.

You're not. You're not hustling.

Yeah.

Or flow charting.

I'm not. My ceiling fan is on because it got a little warm in here.

Wow, this is really descriptive.

Yeah.

All right, man. What are we doing today? Who we talking to today?

We're talking to Jeff Vosick.

We are.

Jeff Vosick is our print fulfillment dude, our physical product dude that we work with for things like T shirts and mugs and cool giveaways that we give to our podcast, Cool Swag. And what we talk about in this episode is various ways to leverage physical products. We talk about ways to leverage physical products to get better conversion rates on the products you're already selling, how to leverage physical products to increase the retention of members if you've got a, you know, a recurring income product. We talk about how to use physical products to keep people from canceling your physical product or your. Whatever it is you sell.

Any product.

Any product. We talk about the journey into creating this large print fulfillment company.

And we really. I think this is. So this is something we're super fascinated about, is the physical mailing of things. Like, we had Steve Sims on the show. I believe it should have been released by this time. And he's a big proponent of using the gifting, you know, as a way of sending things to people, to stay on the radar of folks you want to maybe get as a client or get, you know, maybe bring them into your circle a bit. Maybe it's some influencer out there that you're trying to kind of court. Well, you can use this model. And a lot of what the stuff that Jeff talks about and what we talk about as a way to entice people to maybe come to your podcast or become an affiliate for you, your products and services. So many ways to use physical mailing, type of gadgets, products, mugs. I mean, really, it's anything like. They literally have everything you can think of, even condoms.

Yeah, it's true. And we go into quite a bit of discussion about selling condoms or giving away condoms, but we'll get to that a little bit later in the episode. What I really wanted people to understand in this episode is the possibilities of the things you can do with physical products, like the ways you can make more money in your existing business with physical products. But then also, I wanted Jeff to break down how simple it is to add physical products into the business. Like, I really wanted him to. To show all of the listeners or explain to all the listeners what the process really looks like and how simple it is to add that into your business.

Hint. It's simple.

Yeah, it's easy.

It's easy.

It's a lot easier than I think most people think. And I think there's a lot of fear that holds people back from doing physical products, and hopefully this will break that fear for a lot of people.

It should. And. And we give you a lot of different case studies. We. We give you some ideas of what we're trying to do for this podcast and how we kind of keep the communication going with all the guests that we come on and that come on here. And then also the people listening.

Yeah, you.

So, yeah, lots of cool stuff. Just keep your mind open to this and just, you know, I would say be a sponge and just think of how you can implement this with what you have going on to like, to grow customers, retain customers, prevent all bad stuff from happening, like chargebacks and refunds and all.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I can't think of a business that it. Like adding something physical wouldn't work. Right. If you're trying to make a sale and, like, giving them something physical could help you make more of those sales, like, dramatically more. Yeah.

Or more profits. You know, raising your rates. This is a perfect way to kind.

Of like, oh, justify the price, increase a little.

Giving you a mug now so I can double my rates.

Yeah, we. Now.

Instead of $1,000 a month, it's $2,000 a month. But you get this mug.

You laugh, but people have pulled this off many, many, many, many, many times.

No, it's. It's true. It legit works. Maybe my example was a little extreme, but it's okay. But, yeah, we also have notes on this episode. We do. We did take notes on this episode for. If you go to hustleandflowchart.com comp you can actually get the notes. So any of the strategies and tips and tactics, he actually rattles off a ton of resources like podcasts and things. At the end of this episode, we're going to take notes on all of that. So if you're not at a computer right now or you don't have a notebook in front of you, you're driving or walking or whatever, go stop right now. Open up your phone, go to Hustle and Flowchart. If you're driving, pull over to the side of the road, go to hustleandflowchart.com comp, give us your email address, and then if you want, you can close out of it and we'll email it to you. But that's how you're gonna get hooked up with these notes. So make sure you do that. Go to hustleflowchart.com C O M Pizzle.

P. Just P. But be quick.

Don't type pizzle.

Be quick. Be quick. You got to go quick.

You got to be quick.

They will go away.

The notes do go away.

You don't want them to go away.

As new episodes come out, the old notes get overwritten. So if you want them, go get them now.

Hustleandfluethchart.com comp all right, going over to Jeff now. Hey, Jeff, welcome to the show.

Thanks. Appreciate it. Glad to be here.

Thanks for coming on, man. Well, so you do some interesting stuff that we're starting to kind of mess around with our business now. Sending a lot of more things in the mail.

Yeah, yeah, I think. I think we got connected originally because you're helping us with some shirts for our Homebrew Academy website. You know, we're partners with Brad Costanzo on that site, and you have a previous relationship with. With Brad. And now we're doing some cool stuff with Homebrew Academy, and now we're trying to figure out how to work a bunch of this stuff into our evergreen profits, Hustle and Flowchart business. And a lot of. A lot of exciting stuff going on right now.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's amazing because in this digital age, and I know we'll talk more about it, how much, you know, sending people or offering people physical stuff can just explode an online business in a lot of different aspects.

Yeah, I mean, that's what we're kind of finding out ourselves in our business as well. I mean, we've been sending physical stuff in the mail for roughly 3,3ish years now. And, yeah, it's definitely had a major impact. So we'll definitely get into some of those topics on what we're doing and some stuff that we've talked with you about, testing and trying in the future, and we'll cover a wide range of topics in the Physical product world. But before we do, let's start with your backstory a little bit. And what were you doing before you were an entrepreneur? How did you kind of get into the entrepreneurship world? What's sort of the evolution from pre entrepreneur Jeff to I print and ship Jeff.

I like that I need to come up with some sort of like VCAD type of thing for that. So, I mean, I definitely have to go way back and then I'll fast forward that. I mean, as far as there's kind of always been an entrepreneur Jeff.

My dad was an entrepreneur. Both of my grandfathers were entrepreneurs. So, you know, that kind of was, you know, 100%, you know, you know, genetically that people would say that, you know, that's not really genetics, but it's more DNA. But we know we throw that term around. And so, like, I mean, it really honestly started when I was a kid. The first thing I did was I asked my mom to buy two of everything that she was gonna get me for Christmas so that I could play with one. But then, so I could also rent one to my friend.

Rent it to all your friends. That's awesome.

Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I had a huge he man action figure rental business. That was probably one of my most successful, you know, endeavors as a kid.

Wow.

And so, yeah, and so, you know, and then, you know, yard businesses, blah, blah, blah. So I guess, you know, so going way back, always had just kind of this entrepreneurial spirit. But the cool thing is that I was also. I call myself middle brain. So, you know, your left brain is like supposedly your, you know, your analytical brain and your right brain is your creative brain. And I feel like I'm a pretty self aware guy and I feel like I'm kind of the best of both worlds. And so. And again, that kind of started when I was young because also at the age of two, I started playing piano and got into music and things like that. So I kind of had the entrepreneurial side, but I also had that creative side. Almost everybody in my family was also musicians. My mom was a phenomenal singer. You know, different things like that. And so from the beginning, kind of the creative and the analytical kind of mix together and then, you know, you know, layer the entrepreneurial spirit and everything else on top of that. So that has always helped me be able to adapt and, you know, shift and transform quickly in business. You know, then of course, just really like fast forwarding so, you know, don't have to tell you, like all the details first day. But, you know, of course I Went through school and I wasn't the best student because, you know, I was typically either wanting to play music or, you know, do do business or, you know, you know, you know, see if I needed, you know, do some data analytics on, you know, is the, you know, the twisty he man, you know, selling better than the non twisty he, you know, things like that. And so, you know, I went through school and then so when I went. I went to college for music because it was just like, I had a lot of pressure, even though, you know, certain people in my family were entrepreneurs and stuff like that, but I got kind of pressured to go the college route and, you know, get a good job and, you know, things like that. So I went to college for music.

You know, realized pretty quickly, and towards the end of my college career, I did not want to be a broke musician. I actually say that, you know, you learn from your experience, you learn from watching other people. And I feel like I really had an advantage in that. It took me a long time to finish my degree because I had to work and go to school, and I was about two years off of all of my friends that started with me. And I always feel like this is kind of a blessing, and I never knock anything. I try to be a very optimistic and not negative person. But I got to watch all my friends that were finished their degree before me and were kind of starving musicians, and it was just kind of like, you know, I really don't want to do that. That's just not my route. I also saw them lose. A lot of them lost their passion for music because they had to do it for a job. And so it just became a job instead of a passion. And I didn't want that either. So I got into information technology. All the counselors in school said, hey, musicians are really analytical, so computers and information technology will be great for you. So, long story short, I lasted as an employee for about nine months. I figured out pretty quick I was unemployable, and of course I should have known that. And so, you know, again, right out of college, I actually kind of took a little bit of an entrepreneurial break from, like, high school all the way through college. I really kind of didn't have any side hustle during that time. But then as soon as I realized that, you know, I really didn't want to have a boss and I was smarter than my boss and all that kind of thing. Of course, you know, being young, some of that was cocky.

Yeah.

But, like, I immediately started a web business and Then I started a DJ business. And then man, I just started doing all kinds of stuff, man. All kinds of stuff. I did MLM and network marketing. I mean just all. I just kind of just really just went through tons of things. I sold insurance. I mean it's almost like, you name it, yeah, and I did it. And then I got introduced to the Internet, man, like really hardcore.

Sorta in one of the MLM companies. I kind of saw the power of the Internet because they were one of the first kind of online.

MLM supplement companies. And this was like 2001. And then in 2006.

I got into real estate and started doing some real estate stuff online. And then I got into from that I started working with the guru. So I got into like, you know, guru stuff and information marketing. And that's kind of where I really started my online marketing career was really on the information.

Side. And then, you know, that was about 2012, 2008 and then, you know, so I did, I built a 12 million dollar information publishing business from like 2009 to 2014. And then man, I just saw a lot of my buddies getting into physical and I don't mean shape, I mean product. And you know, so it's like they were taking all their, you know, phenomenal direct response knowledge from selling information products and selling services and things like that and kind of taking it to Amazon and ebay and you know, building Shopify stores and doing, you know, Facebook ads and all that kind of stuff. And you know, I just remember one of my buddies in particular that used to sell software and had a little information business behind that related to tech. I mean, go from like zero to $10 million on Amazon in like 10 months. And I was like man, like I need to go do that. So I got into. It's funny because I kind of started out a little bit more on the logistics side backstory really quick. My grandfather on my mom's side had a packaging business. Like pretty much that's all he did, was packaging. And I worked in that business for four years while I was in college. So I learned a whole lot about logistics and warehousing and all that, you know, from that. But I did a lot of logistics and warehousing and stuff first. I know it's weird Internet to that. It's like, what the heck, you know.

It sounds like your life in a nutshell.

I know, it's like exactly. And so, and then, then it was just, you know, so then we started selling some products. Little, little Amazon did a million dollar ebay Store, multimillion dollar Amazon store. And then, you know, decided that, you know, I wanted to be more of the guy that, you know, during the gold rush, the people that made. Unless you kind of were one of the very, very few lucky people that hit it rich with, you know, finding some gold. The people that really made all the money were the people that serviced all the gold miners. So the people that sold the picks at pickaxes and the shovels and the sifters, you know, and all that stuff. It's like that. Exactly, exactly. So it's like either that or you own the bank, you know. And so, so I was like, you know what? I want to be that I want to be the guy. And obviously I kind of got a taste of that with logistics and warehousing, but not, I didn't feel like I kind of owned enough of it and got, you know, really the full piece of it. And I saw a presentation from a guy that you guys might know whose name has completely left me right now. So I'm so excited that I will not be able to give him any credit. I actually think he lives out there where you guys are. But he was in a mastermind with me and I saw him do. It's going to come to me probably like in about 30 minutes a presentation about in real estate how as much as possible, if you can own every part of the transaction, you are like seriously, seriously doing really well and have a great business model. And it's almost, I mean it's practically recession proof and things like that. So I started applying that bar business because you know he's talking about be the realtor, be the investor, be the closing company, be the title company, you know, probably not going to be the bank because that's, that's obviously difficult to start your own bank. But so maybe with the exception of that. And it just got me thinking, how can I map that on, you know, to my business? And so we started manufacturing and making stuff and printing and you know, we started with like apparel and different things like that. But then I also started building relationships and owning parts of the different processes and even down to freight and logistics and things like that. And so that brings me to where I am today with I apprenticeship where you know, we make over 150,000 different products. We can product develop, we can make new products for you, we can source from all over the world. We do logistics, we do freight, we do warehousing, we do fulfillment. Obviously there are certain things that we do more than the other. I mean there's always like, you know, supply, you know, supply and demand and things like that. But I mean, you know, we are a global printing and fulfillment company.

And I love it. I mean, I just, it's, you know, it's fantastic because it feeds every part of my DNA and who I am and things like that. That's kind of sticking to it.

I have a question. When you had your $12 million a year info business, what was that business? Because I feel like we might have crossed paths back then.

You know, I think we did. And that's a very common thing. And it's kind of funny. It almost is. Every week we'll get a new client and it's like, man, didn't I promote your product on a webinar like four or five years ago or something like that?

I think you and I did a webinar together. I think I promoted this has got to be 2009, 2010. But I think we did a webinar together where I promoted something of yours. But I can't for the life of me remember what it was.

I think so, man. It was, it was Info Renegades was the main, main brand. And we basically taught people what we did. We taught people how to take their expertise, take their knowledge, take their ip, take, you know, whatever and you know, wrap it into information or, you know, coaching or consulting and, you know, how to do that and create a successful business that way. And we called it Info Renegade.

Very cool. So I was just going to ask why. Why did you get out of that if it was do it? You know, it sounds like a pretty solid eight figure a year business with low overhead. Why would you transition out of that into physical products?

Yeah. You know, I'll be frank with you, Matt. It was the biggest thing for me was I had a hard time sleeping at night. And the reason why I had a hard time sleeping at night is because, you know, maybe 3% of the people that were doing our programs and taking our coaching and things like that were, you know, successful with it. And that, that really kind of bothered me. You know what I mean?

Oh, no, you are preaching to the choir right here.

I mean, that's right.

Joe and I, we, we've been slowly over time phasing out the info side of our business for exactly the same reasons. We know what we teach works. We know what we teach is effective for the people that take action. But we also know that 97% of the people who buy our courses aren't taking any action.

It's always the action element.

And that's what eats at us about info. That and I also have a strong belief that info wants to be free and that we're slowly seeing a democratization of info. We were just talking to Richard Linder from Digital Marketer earlier and he basically was telling us how Digital Marketer is really focused on democratizing, demonetizing info.

Yeah.

And open sourcing, so maybe even allowing.

Others to build upon what's already happening. I also think there'll always be a place for info right there. We're all. There's people will always be able to sell info. But I do think it is something that is going to become harder and harder and harder with the prolification of free sites. I mean you've got pretty much any information that you can buy, you can also find for free if you were to dig hard enough. And I think discoverability of that info is just getting easier and easier and easier over time. So eventually it's going to be harder to sell info. So I think it is a slowly fading business model in my opinion.

I agree. I agree. I think that in my, my opinion what I think it where info is going is it's going and I mean it's already here and let's like the word info is now pretty much if it hasn't already, but really moving more towards content. I mean it's just all content now. And since content is so accessible now, even way more than when I was doing webinars and all that kind of stuff not really that long ago. And the whole scheme of things is info is making it in my opinion, I don't want to say easy but.

More accessible for people to sell their products and services. But selling info itself is becoming like you said, way more difficult. So to me it's kind of like a pendulum and the pendulum is like swinging towards hey, info is amazing. And actually it's becoming how it's amazing now is it's becoming such an amazing vehicle to actually sell your products and services. But sell. But the other side of the pendulum is selling it. Selling info itself is becoming a lot more difficult. So I completely agree with you.

Yeah. And it's, it's. I like that you have this colorful background of all walks of life and then also the info element which is prolific online in all different niches and we were talking prior to the call how physical products, you know, little bonuses or any kind of ride along extra stuff that people can actually tangibly hold are great ways to increase conversion, decrease refunds, increase stickiness for any subscription recurring type products. What have you found in your experience, since you are a marketer, which is cool, you run a print house and you have this background, like, what have you seen work really well for info product owners when they're using some kind of physical product in combination with. With their offers?

Yeah, I mean, the things that work super well that I've seen are, I mean, T shirts.

We, we. I just created a. We're doing an event in less than a month, and we created a playing card deck, a custom playing card deck that we're going to hand out for free at that event of 26.

Sorry, 52, I can't count. Math was never my forte. Thank God for Excel.

So 52, because they're gonna be two jokers. So 52, kind of like physical product, premium swag, promotional product, you know, fulfillment, blah, blah, blah, hacks, so to speak.

And one of them is, if all else sell sales, offer a T shirt. So that's literally one of the. One of the faces of the cards is going to say that. So T shirts are great books.

Now wait, can we step back real quick? When you say when all else fails, offer a T shirt.

In what context are you talking about? Like, as a bonus to the product you're selling as a tool to increase retention as the product that you're selling itself. You know, I'm just curious a little bit more about the context around that.

Yes. Sorry, my bad. You're right. You asked me a question about information. So, like, for information.

Adding a T shirt as a bonus to the offer is super good. Or having a free plus shipping offer of the T shirt, but you get like.

The course as part of the offer. So you get the course or whatever as part of that offer. But yeah, kind of. For information marketers, what we've seen is providing something physical. A T shirt works really well. A book works really well. Coffee mug we've seen really well. In fact, funny story. So Yannick Silver. You guys know who Yannick Silver is?

Yep. I think you're taking this out of my brain. I literally just. I was going to make a Yannick reference, but I want to hear what you have to say. This is great.

Yeah, so Yannick used to sell this copywriting course. This is one of the greatest kind of examples kind of in our world, so to speak. There's obviously more examples of this going back to, like, Jesus's time, to be honest with you. And so he sold this $2,000 copywriting course, and he was like, you know, conversions were good, you know, but it's. I mean, it's Yannick, you know, great copywriter, blah, blah, blah. But he's like, you know, what can I do to increase conversions? And all the guy did was added a $4 coffee mug that said kiss me, I'm a copywriter.

And it like there's a $2,000 course, $4 coffee mug, like, put that on your pendulum. Right. And increased its conversions massively. I actually have a slide. I apologize. I'm not where I can see it. I actually have the number. But it was, the lift was just for what it was for just adding a $4 coffee mug that said kiss me on the copywriter. The lift was just kind of ridiculous considering what it was. So. And you know, he just gave that away. It's just like, hey, you know, you get the course, you get this coffee mug. So, yeah, I mean, anything like that. Another one is that if you sell courses and it's something like a bigger, like how to kind of course kind of a more what I would say more of like a kit, more of a, like a thud factor kind of course. You know, sending a welcome kit.

Is also something that works really well. So we have several clients that sell. This is more for information. And you probably have information marketers of different, like, you know, sales price points here. So I'll see if I can hit everybody the T shirt and stuff, you know, those kind of things. You know, Yannick's example is kind of, kind of out there. But typically T shirts and things like that work really well for like, you know, like a lower end offer. But then like, if you sell like a big course, like a, you know, I don't know, 500,000, 2,000, $3,000 course, I mean, we have some people that sell $3,000 courses and then we're, we're kidding and fulfilling, making and then kidding and then and shipping out a welcome kit for them. And, you know, that's really working well for people that kind of have a bigger, you know, a bigger online course. Man, I wish I'd have thought of that when I was doing Info Renegades. Our price point was 997. And then the upsell was an additional 1997. So like $3,000. Man, I wish I'd have done like, I mean, I probably would have been a $24 million business if I'd have done the, you know, the welcome kit thing or some kind of physical thing, you know, back then. But it is what it is. So for information, T shirts, mugs, books, like if you're selling information, like an ebook or something, like that. And you can put that into a physical form. Man, people are like, killing it. Selling, just outright selling the physical form or, you know, giving. Doing the physical form of the ebook, either as a bonus or as an upsell? We've got several people on ClickBank that are selling, you know, an ebook on ClickBank. Then they're upselling into the physical book. But then, you know, as part of that upsell, they're offering some other little, you know, other. Other things that they get by taking that physical book upsell offer. And, you know, and we had a guy in the diet niche that for a while, I mean, he was doing it as an upsell and I mean, he was. I mean, we were moving 700 to a thousand books a day for that guy.

And so, yeah, I'm curious, just for the listener's sake, obviously you and I have talked quite a bit now, but for the listener's sake, what sort of cost are we looking at for things like a mug, a shirt, a book, including the cost of the product and adding some sort of custom image to it and shipping it out?

Yeah, obviously on things like books, it's a little difficult because it depends on the size of the book, how many pages, and things like that. But I can definitely give you some examples. T shirts are a little bit easier. I mean, you know, we can do, you know, simple T shirts with a, you know, design on the front, black T shirt with a design on the front, whatever you want that, you know, design to be, basically, whether it's single color or multicolor, whatever, you know, we can do that shipped, printed and shipped. You know, I guess we can maybe put in the disclaimer of the date, because who knows about, you know, pricing and shipping? But that's true. Right now, at the time of this recording, you know, we can do that for under $10, printed and shipped a lot of times under $9.

And again, that's printed and shipped to your customer.

For things like books. You know, again, it really just kind of depends on, you know, the size of the book and things like that. Those guys that were doing.

You know, 700 to a thousand books a day, that's obviously a lot of volume. I think the book. The book cost them a little over two bucks. Two bucks. It was a little bit thicker of a book because it had a bunch of diet stuff in it and recipes and, you know, all that kind of stuff. So I know that book was a little over $2 for the book. Then shipping, they. They were cool with shipping it media mail, which is pretty Pretty, pretty inexpensive.

That's the cheapest way for books.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it takes eight days, but I mean, it's super, super, super cheap. So as long as you set up your. Your peeps that, hey, you know, you're not. You're gonna get your book in three or four days. You know, it's. It's working as media mail. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I think they were at, like.

I want to say, four or five bucks, you know, printed and shipped on the books. Obviously, they were doing quite a bit of volume. Volume does matter, you know, so it really just kind of runs the gamut on that, you know, coffee mug. Like I said, two to four bucks for a coffee mug. Packaging for a coffee. The only thing about coffee mugs is packaging is a little bit more expensive because obviously, you know, we don't. You don't want it to show up in pieces. Right. And so, you know, it's a little bit more. But we still do that for, like, about the same as a shirt, you know, under $10, under $9.

So. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot. Leaf it this way. There's a lot of things that we can do for under 10 bucks.

And so, you know, I mean, that's kind of another way to look at it. It's like, what are we. What can we do for. You know, you give me. You give me a budget, and I can. I can make it work. It's very powerful when someone, you know, gives us a budget. Then we can make it, you know, we can make it work and everything.

Yeah.

I just looked up on your site, and we can get Hustle and Flowchart flags printed. So we should. I think we really should.

That means we should.

Well, I know you have a flagpole.

In front of your house, Matt.

I got one in my back. Let's fly them up.

Yeah, we do both have flagpoles at our house.

That's hilarious.

I love this, man. Because back when Matt and I started, what, three years ago or so with the physical mail side of things, because we've always been online mainly, but with our EGP letter, that was monthly newsletter that we started back then. It's restarted now, but we also sent welcome kits, kind of like what you're describing. So it was like a little pamphlet with some other random swag or whatever else packaged up in there. We packaged a book in there.

Yeah. It was a box of junk. We sent people a box of junk. No, no. That's a great way to put it. I'm just kidding. No, we, we actually put both of our books in there and we had like a.

It was a wow factor. Yeah, no, it was the thump. It's. It's like what you were saying.

You got a box of stuff in the mail when you signed up for a little newsletter.

Yeah. And I've seen this used so many times. Like, we did a local meeting that we used to go to Glazer Kennedy, which ironically, I'm sure you know, Dan Kennedy is talking about the lumpy mail all the time. So they're big proponents of that and they would always have a welcome kit basically of what you got if you had these join this local marketing meetup. And it was. Everybody went gaga over it. And it was just books that he just kind of put together his book, some other random stuff, some CDs that.

Nobody actually has devices that play CDs for anymore.

Henry, if you're listening, we love you, but it's just crazy how people will sign up for something that. I think that was maybe 100, 200 bucks a month. And like that thing is just like the stick factor.

That was like 80 bucks a month.

Yeah, whatever it was. But either way, it's not a bad amount of cash and you're giving away maybe a box worth like 10 bucks.

Yeah, no, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's. I mean, more of the punchline. I'm actually glad you kind of brought it up from an information perspective because more of a punchline for you information marketers out there is just what it does for you on the back. I mean, it's just so profound what it does for you in a back end, especially from like a refund retention and refund reducer, retention increaser and chargeback reducer. And we found that, for example, people who lead with information and add some sort of physical component or premium or whatever to it, I mean, the refund and chargeback rates go down dramatically. Like, I'm not talking about go from like 30% to 26%. I'm talking about going from, you know, 25. You guys know, with info. I mean, you know, the refund and chargeback rates can be ridiculous. Upwards of even 50%, even for some of these guys, like on ClickBank and stuff like that. And like, you know, we found when they add, when you add a physical component, I mean, we're down in the single digits. So going. Imagine having an information business where your refund and chargeback rate, 15, 20, 30, 40, maybe even 50%, and that gets jacked down to 2, 3, 4, 5%. I mean, holy cow. I mean, over time it's so profound what that can do. So, you know, great questions asking me about the products and what works and the pricing because, you know, hey, the ROI has got to work. But long term, like, you know, what's the ROI on that? I mean, what's the ROI of, you know, increasing retention, decreasing refunds, and decreasing chargebacks at that phenomenal rate over and over, month after month after month after month after month. Man, that stuff stacks up. It just really adds up.

What are some things that you have seen as far as, I mean, I don't know, I guess, I guess my assumption would be it's going to be a lot of the same stuff. But have you seen anything specifically work? Let's say somebody emails in and says, hey, I want to cancel. Or, you know, let's say somebody's been on the thing for three months and we've seen that our average drop off is after three months. Our typical retention is three months. And then after that people start to drop off. Have you seen any products or like, types of products that have worked to either prevent people from actually going all the way through with the refund or something that has preempted the potential refund? When somebody hits like that three month mark where, you know, your typical drop off is.

Sure. I mean, it definitely is some of the same stuff that we've been talking about. It's just, just that timing. It seems that like seven to nine days before that drop off seems to be kind of like a sweet spot. I honestly don't even know why. It's kind of like, you know, Perry Belcher used to say, you know, like blue number 66 had to be like the border on your page. And they tested like, you know, 300 colors of blue. Like why blue number 66 work? I have no idea. They had no idea. They just tested 8 million different blues and that's the one that got, you know, the 5% lift. So I don't know necessarily, I don't know if it has to do in their credit card statement, hits the rebuild, blah, blah, blah, whatever, but those seem to be the days. But I mean, it really, it kind of, it kind of runs the gamut a little bit based on the.

Kind of the mindset of the customer as far as the value of what they're getting every month. So it's kind of relative to what they're paying. And so if you're, if you're selling like, let's just say you're selling like maybe like financial advice to wealthy people. I wouldn't send them a T shirt. It definitely needs to be, it needs to be a something that they'll use.

And be something that's relevant to kind of, you know, the demographic and, you know, value kind of profile that they're in. And I hate to like, I hate, I hate giving kind of like complicated, loaded answers, but I'm not going to lie to you. You know, it's like, it's the truth and I don't want to lie to your audience. Yeah, it does kind of depend on that, you know, as well.

Yeah. I think the main point here really is that it's not really the widget, the what you're sending them that matters. But I think what I want people to take away from this episode is the potential that you're talking about here. This has potential like just adding a physical product into the mix with your info product or your software product or, you know, whatever type of your coaching, your consulting, whatever you sell online. Adding a physical element into it can increase conversions on that front end sale. It can increase retention. When, you know, people drop off at month three, it can prevent a refund. When somebody emails you and wants a refund and you say, hey, if you want to stick for another month, here's something that we can offer you to stick around for a while. The, I think the bigger point is less the what and more that the this is possible. And I think that's what I really want people listening to this episode to take away from what we're talking about.

Yeah. And just exactly right. And there's even, you know, the ways that we want to use it for, for this podcast. Like there's so many ways that we want to leverage a lot of, like what you do is, you know, for, for the guests on podcasts, we, we already collect their physical address and their shirt size. So that gives us some pretty good data to work with right there to follow up. And it's all about relationships. Like we had Steve Sims on here last. Well, it's not released yet, but we recorded last week. And you know, he's all about sending people really. It's like unexpected stuff in the mail. So like another use case is follow up with someone when they're not expecting it. Don't tell them you're sending it. But if you have their addresses and you know that they're either a connector or they're going to fricking buy a bunch of stuff from you, giving them something useful to, you know, even if it's kind of unique or maybe it's unique to them, but it's, it's, it's cool. It's just showing appreciation. That's one way we want to really extend the touches that we're doing with each person.

Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. It goes down to psyche. I mean, that's really in. Matt. I love the way you sum that up, man. That's so. You know, I was probably kind of rambling there, but I get pretty excited about this and everything, in case you couldn't tell. But the way you sum that up. I love the way you sum that up. That it just the opportunity and to go a tiny bit deeper. And I want you to. This timeline, it sound like you had another question or point. It's all about psyche. I mean, we've studied this. We know why it works because we actually have studied this. There is psyche behind it and stuff like that. And one of the biggest things that Joe just pointed out that was great is the gifting model as well. I mean, there's definitely a gifting side of this that is huge. And especially for people that are thinking about canceling your trial, canceling your subscription or whatever, that seven to nine day time frame that I mentioned before, they typically are canceling you sending them something unexpected. As Joe said, they don't want to be the jerk that like refund. And I'm just saying, like, like this is how they think. I'm not saying they're jerks, but literally.

We'Ve done studies on this. They literally don't want to be the guy that cancels on you when you sent them the $10 box of brownies that their kids ate through and just absolutely love and wouldn't stop talking about the brown.

Exactly.

And how good they were.

Yep.

That's what it is, man. It really does go down to psyche.

Oh, a hundred percent. And I mean, we found out just with our own newsletter that if you're an info business, if you're selling info, you can actually take that info and take it from an online info product to an offline info product and your retentions are going to go way up. But that's a, that's a totally side point. What I was actually about to say a minute ago was I think one of the smartest things that Click Funnels and Russell Brunson did was with their gold record thing.

Right. So if 2 comma club.

Yeah, they're 2 comma club thing where if you've made over a million dollars in your business, you fill out a little survey and say, look, we've made over a million dollars in our business. And then they send you what looks like, you know, a gold record, like the record industry used to give out when people hit a million sales or whatever.

Giving that thing out causes people to get it. You know, they get it in their house, they hang it on their wall, they take a picture of it, they post their picture on Instagram of like, look at this amazing achievement that I just got. They share it on their Facebook wall. They go into the clickfunnels group and they tell everybody that I just got into the 2 comma club. I mean, I don't know what those things cost, Russell. I mean, 20, 30 bucks a pop. But think about, like the marketing reach of all of these people that have entered the 2 comma club and have shared it on social media.

Freaking brilliant, right? Yeah, huge. Huge. And I welcome kit things. Those little welcome kit things that we were talking about earlier. I mean, again, a lot of these guys, their clients and their customers, their audience, they go on to Facebook. What do they do? They unbox it. They video themselves unboxing it. Hey, are you blah, blah, blah and such and such group, I got my kit today, you know, show pictures of it, blah, blah, blah. Just like, just like what you said. I mean, that's exactly right. That's such a great point. Just, we haven't even talked about the whole. The whole viral component of it and stuff as well.

Yeah, yeah, probably. There's so many strategies. I'm just thinking like, hey, if you wanted to get the attention of like an influencer on Instagram or YouTube or whatever, like, maybe send them some stuff, find a way to get to their address. I'm sure you could figure it out online, start a podcast, ask for their.

Address when they register.

Yeah, I mean, that's one way to do it. And friggin, you know, now you got an in. You have an excuse to follow up with these people because you sent something to them.

Yeah.

And it's. And it's unique. Ideally, maybe you could put like a cool little note or something in there.

I'm sure.

Do you guys like have notes and ways to send that out per customer?

Yes.

Yeah, I figured. So that's why when you guys like have all that stuff covered and if you have that personalized element, like, that's a perfect way to get on the radar of someone that can totally send you like loads of traffic or endorse you, get you on their show, their YouTube channel to blow you up.

Yeah, well, I mean, so one of the things that people Ask us all the time. And this is legitimately something that comes up fairly frequently, is like, how did you guys get to know and build a relationship with Roland Frazier and, you know, Perry Marshall and, you know, a lot of the people that we've had on the podcast, we've actually gone on to build pretty good relationships with them and talk to them quite often. And that question comes up, and it quite legitimately is this type of stuff. We bring people on our podcast, and then we do whatever we can to stay on their radar. Beyond that, we send them shit. We get on phone calls with them more. We offer to help them in their own business. But, you know, that. That whole reciprocity thing is really what has built our business over the last 10 years. It's why we are where we are today is because of that reciprocity element and just giving freely to people who we feel have helped our business.

Absolutely. Yep.

Cool. So I have. Did you have anything else here? Because I wanted to kind of shift angles a little bit.

Let's shift it. Yeah.

Okay. So what I wanted to ask.

So there's probably a lot of people listening that have never dealt with any sort of physical products. They've never mailed stuff to their customers. They've never done any of that. So I'm curious if you can kind of walk the listeners through, what would. What would happen? There's probably a little bit of a fear of, you know, physical products seem like it would be hard to get into. It's. It's complicated. It adds complexity to my business. And there might be people thinking, well, shit, If I sold 7,000 T shirts, does that mean I have to go and, like, send you 7,000 email addresses to send to? Like, what. Can we just kind of walk through what it would look like? Let's just say I had a website that sold T shirts. What would happen after somebody purchases. What does that flow look like to anybody who would purchase a T shirt on the site? What does it look like from the business owner's perspective, just to kind of put people's minds at ease of how really uncomplicated this is?

Sure. Great question, by the way. Well, first of all, that's another reason why kind of biased on apparel, T shirts especially, is because we can do those on demand, so you don't need to buy. You know, we have a lot of people, you know, bless their heart, they put a T shirt out there and it bombs.

I mean.

I mean. And I'm talking about. I won't mention names, like, even some really good Marketers, and it's just, you know, just. It just doesn't do anything for them as far as, like, the design, the person, you know, people didn't really want it. So, you know, man, it would have kind of sucked if that dude bought a thousand T shirts from me just as a guesstimate and didn't know, like, that it was gonna bomb. So that's a great thing about a T shirt. So, I mean, it's. It's really simple. There isn't much of. We have not found a shopping cart, a CRM, a marketplace that we have not been able to, in some sort of automated fashion, get your orders over on our end. So number one, let's step back just one minute. You don't have to keep a bunch of inventory. You don't have to keep a bunch of stuff in stock in your garage. You don't have to send it out yourself. You know, basically just come up with a design of whatever you want to put on, whatever thing you're you're going to offer. And we can even help you with that. You know, we can help you with that as well. We have designers on our team not, not to pitch, but I'm just saying, you know, we can help you with that, since we're talking about helping and making it easier. And then, you know, we basically just create a proof and you approve the proof, and then we connect with whatever your CRM, shopping cart, marketplace, whatever it is. Are there some that are easy than others? Yes. I mean, obviously something like a Shopify or a WooCommerce, you know, is, you know, obviously built for stuff like that. Whereas, like, you know, an infusionsoft or something isn't necessarily built for that. But we, we have people that use infusionsoft all day long, and we've got no issues grabbing their orders, putting them in, getting, getting them into our system through a very simple tech stack. And then, you know, then we ful the orders for you on demand and, you know, bill you want the week. I mean.

It really is that simple. Don't have to keep inventory, don't have to be a technical person, don't necessarily have to set up anything. I mean, we have a plan or a tier where we'll build out your Shopify store for you or whatever. If you want us to, if you want us to do something like that. So it can be super duper. I mean, it's very simple. I mean, it really is simple and should not scare anyone off at all because we've got them covered at every Step of the way, for sure.

Now, are there other products other than shirts that are print on demand, or is shirts really the only thing you can do? Print on demand?

So we can do pretty much any kind of apparel. So I mean, I had a lady the other day, this is a new one, that wanted to know if we could print sports bras on demand. And I'm like, there you go. Actually, yeah, we can. And so, I mean, you know, we can do underwear, we can do sports bras. We can do, you know, we have people in the fitness niche that have, you know, full, like, kind of, you know, fitness clothing. We print. We print different kinds of shirts for them, including like even like the dry fit stuff and things like that. That's more, you know, at. For working out to workout. Shorts, sweatpants, socks, you know, and, you know, yoga pants, you know, things like that. When you get into the more kind of physical hard goods, we can do pretty much just about any kind of print. And you guys kind of have some experience with this. We actually just brought a whole bunch of the print, what I call print print in house. And so that's why things like inserts and, you know, some of the other things are very simple to do, you know, on demand. You know, things like coffee mugs or like another really popular kind of physical product right now is those stainless steel insulated tumblers of all, like, shapes and sizes. Those are super popular. And so, you know, right at this point in time, we don't do those on demand, but here's what we tell people, and we have people do this all the time.

Do, do a. Do a test offer, you know, test it, set people's expectations, because we can still get them done really, really fast. You know, most of these things we can get printed and be ready to fulfill for you within seven business days. So, I mean, it's not like, oh, you know, yeah, we're gonna, you know, it's gonna take 30 days to get those coffee mugs made or something like that. You know, most of these things can still be pretty quick. So if you, you know, tell your audience that, hey, you know, oh, you know, we're gonna offer this coffee mug, blah, blah, blah, whatever, you know, it's gonna take about, you know, 10 to 15 business days where you get it. I mean, most people don't care. I mean, if you tell them, like, like you said, it's not Amazon, it's not. They're not expecting that. I mean, you know, Kickstarter wouldn't be like a gazillion dollar company if everybody got pissed off because they didn't get their, their, you know, their, their Kickstarter watch, like, you know what I mean? So if you frame it and you position it, I mean, we've had a ton of people that, I mean, look at it this way. We've had a ton of people that have just saved a lot of money, you know, doing it that way because they don't go buy stuff that they don't need or they don't know how it's going to go and stuff like that. So, you know, we can work on, work with you on a little bit of like a launch strategy for those products that we don't print on demand so that you don't, you know, you know, spend a lot of money and stuff like that. So that can be super simple as well.

Yeah, and I feel like there's so many businesses out there that use stuff like AliExpress too, so that, you know, I'm not a fan of that business model really. But, you know, those sites, it takes three to four weeks to ship the product. It's like, it's like people have two expectations now with shipping, right? They either want it next day because that's what Amazon's trained everybody or even the same day, or they're kind of expecting like, I'm going to get it cheap, but it's going to be a while.

Exactly. Yeah. It's really, you know, it's really funny. And you know, Matt, you and I have, you know, pun intended, communicated about this via email. Even in our relationship, you know, communication is king. And if you tell people, hey, here's the deal, blah, blah, blah, you're going to get it in, you know, 15 days or three weeks or whatever. They typically, they typically don't really care. And somebody might say, well, you know, does that hurt conversions? Well, maybe it will a little bit. But let's say you convert. Let's look at it this way, then again, okay, so you convert that, you know, physical, premium or bonus or whatever, you know, that make, that lifts your conversions to where your conversions, let's say, went from 9% on an offer to say like 19 or 20%. Well, okay, if some of the people didn't take it because they didn't want to wait three weeks, well, imagine what the lift would have been once we kind of know what the numbers are and know if that product is something that we, that they're going to take. And then we can start buying inventory and replenishing and stuff like that. One of the things that we do for our people that, you know, I really like that we do is we. We have software where we help people trend and forecast. So it's like, you'll never buy more than you need. You know, we'll tell you when, you know, for some of these things, if it's something that's not on demand, and you will tell you when you need to reorder, you know, and all that kind of stuff. And so it's a really nice ecosystem that we create around stuff like that. All we ask is that, you know, hey, communicate with your customers or pay us to do that for you. We can do that, too. We can do all your support as well, if you want.

So.

Yeah, that's cool, man.

Even if it has nothing to do with physical products. Can I just send you all of my customer support?

There's a price for everything, Matt.

Exactly.

So as you were talking about, you were educating everyone. I was educating myself on your website and found that you do condoms as well.

That was actually one of our ideas of a cool giveaway for. For conferences.

So, yeah, this is not a joke at all. But.

But no, it's a joke, but it was an intention.

It was a joke, but it might actually be reality now because we found our source.

Yeah.

And their lifestyle. So I think they're trustworthy.

No, we were actually. We. Like, you know, when you go to conferences and they give away the swag bags and you can, like, pay to be a sponsor and, like, for 500 bucks, you can throw something in the swag bags. We thought it would be hilarious to go to a conference and then put, like, our Hustle and Flowchart logo on condom wrappers and throw them in the swag. Swag bags. See?

See, it's a good. It's not even a joke. It's the.

The biggest problem. The biggest problem that I found with that concept was that a lot of people go to these conferences is sort of like an escape tactic.

Right.

Like, you know, people that are married with kids and stuff, like, we all are. You know, they go to these conferences to kind of get away for a couple days. When they return home with a condom, there might be some explaining to do. So that's kind of where our discussions on this idea went a little south.

Yeah, yeah, I got you. I got you. Or even better, you know, what you do is you get kind of one of those bigger ones where you can put a little bit more on it. And, like, if your business is, say, you know, Facebook ad, it's like, you know, you could do something. Like, on the packaging, we always. Like this one Mitch that works with me, who you've interacted with. Matt thought of this one because we actually thought of the condom thing.

And he thought of, like, hey, you know, you know, fake. You know, having problems with your Facebook ads. We got you covered.

With the biggest.

Whatever you do, and then we got you covered, you know, so we always thought that.

Worried about getting your Facebook ad shut down?

No problem.

Make sure you've got protection.

Yeah.

I was more concerned about buying cheap condoms and then having some.

And then having a whole bunch of hustling flowchart babies.

Yeah. So that's why I was like, oh, you have lifestyle. So I think they're reputable.

That's great.

And on that note, we're kind of. We're kind of at the end of the hour here.

I'm curious. Yeah, well, I'm curious. And this is an homage to Brackostanzo, buddy of ours. But, like, what nuts are you trying to crack in your business?

Yeah, that's a great transition, Joe.

No pun intended.

Yeah.

Oh, God. Wow.

Oh, man.

That was straight from Brad. So he said.

He said. He said to not reword that question. So I said, okay. So, Brad, I blame you.

Yeah. Just the timing of the previous conversation into this conversation, had it written down.

Prior to that was great. What are you looking to do? Because I know I print and ship. You do so much, and you seem like an entrepreneur that just does a lot, which we all do. Where do you see it going? And, like, is there an issue you're trying to get past in the business.

That maybe something else or our audience could help you with?

Yeah.

Yeah. That's a really great question, man. I really. And I appreciate that very much. That's definitely something that sometimes is a blessing and a curse for us. Right. That it's like, you know, there are definitely people. I mean, let's be frank. That probably look at us and go, God, like, you're a master of so many things. Are you. You know, you're a jack of or. Sorry, you're a jack of so many things. Like, what are you, like, a master of? So we definitely, you know, struggle with that a little bit. But the thing is, is that, you know, I built my business the way I did, because one of the biggest complaints we got is for anyone that does anything physical, it's like, man, it's the. One of the biggest complaints with that is, like, I have to go to so many people to do what I want to do for one show or One product or one offer to where it really deters them. So I was like, you know what? I want to be that jack of all trades and master of all of them, so you know who loves us. And I know this is like an aside. Event coordinators, because event coordinators, typically, it's like they got the T shirt guy because they're gonna give out T shirts and, you know, and blast them off from. From a T shirt gun from the stage. They got the guy they have to go to for all the signage. They got the guy they have to go to for all the tablecloths. They got the guy they have to go to for everything. For the tote bags that are gonna be the swag bags that you mentioned. You know, it's like they have 50 different vendors plus getting gouged by Freeman.

And it's like, you know, so when they can come to me and go, oh, yeah, I do your signs. Oh, yeah, tablecloths. Yeah, no problem. Oh, the pop up banner. Sure, no problem. Oh, you need backdrops. Yeah, that's no big deal. Oh, you want something hanging from the top of the hotel. So when people. No problem. You know, it's like, oh, well, yeah, we'll do the T shirts, we'll do the hats, we'll do the coffee mugs. We'll do all the little things. Everything that's going on a tote bag. Well, first of all, we can do the tote bag and then we can do everything that's going in the tote bags. Oh, you need programs. Cool. Yeah, we'll print your programs for you. They're like. They're just like, wow, you know, I can't believe this.

You're making their lives easier.

Exactly. That's the whole thing is like, buy people's time back for them or something like that. So what I'm working on, what I, for me is I really want to get very, like, I would like to get more into, first of all, a whole lot more, you know, guys like you that want to do a bunch of different things, want to grow, want to do print on demand, but also maybe want to do this and do that. So, you know, kind of going away from, like, you know, again, with all due respect, and, you know, hopefully I'm not, you know, like, shunning customers away by saying this, but I'm an honest southern dude. And so, you know, my mama would be proud of me, but, like, you know, like the soccer mom that wants a dozen T shirts, you know, like, we're just trying to, like, get away from that and get into corporate and get into big accounts and get into people that are doing a lot of print on demand and people that are doing big volume and mass volume and things like that. Because for us as a business, that really creates a lot of different things. It makes your business a whole lot more valuable. It creates a whole lot more longevity in your business and things like that. So I'm trying to get to more people that are doing stuff on demand, whether it be apparel or even on the fulfillment side. We're trying to get more fulfillment clients.

And you know, and things like that and kind of getting away from the, oh, I need, you know, 10 T shirts for my, you know, my, you know, my groomsmen, you know, for my wedding and stuff like that. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah. You're going for. It's more volume and it's. And it's maybe something that's recurring, you know, constant flow of new orders and you can really do it. Right. It's not these one off things where you can't really test and see what works best. So it's going to be better for your customer as well.

Yeah, I mean, we definitely have some people we can connect you to and.

A lot of people listening too.

Yeah, for sure. And we actually, we do little events from time to time locally and one of the things we always get for these events is those step and repeat backdrop banners. So we might have just found a new source for those too.

That's right.

Yeah. What's the best place folks can go check your stuff out? Because I know we've been tossing a lot of ideas around.

So the main site is I like the letter I print and ship.com iprintandship.com and that's kind of what I saw. Like our main corporate site, it definitely has all the categories and you can drill down into products and things like that. But it tells you a whole lot about what all we do, why we do it, how we do it, you know, and things like that. Because we are kind of a product creator but also, you know, a service company, we needed a site that just kind of told everybody what we do and how we do it and why we do it. And then we do have a separate site that I think you guys, you. That's probably what you were surfing while we were doing the podcast here, Joe, which is same thing, iprintandshipstore.com so you just add store there at the end. And one little caveat I will put in for everyone that is listening. We worked with a partner to build that on a platform that would give us the ability to not have to create are necessarily our own, you know, catalog of 150 plus thousand products off the bat. So the pricing that you see on there is what I call inflated catalog pricing. When you were a kid, you guys, I don't know how old you guys are but like you remember getting like a service merchandise catalogs and the years catalogs and stuff like that or the hammocker slimmer catalogs and all that. And it's like the pricing is just like crazy. But then you go to the store and it's like oh it's like $10 cheaper or they're on sale or like whatever. So definitely one, one little disclaimer, you know, you find something you like on there, reach out to us and it's going to be less than what you see. We're trying to work on that a little bit. But the problem man is these, you know, the way some of these products are man, they can go up and down in pricing. So there's kind of like a safe way to like price everything. But like whatever Joe, whatever you saw those flags for.

And especially because you know you guys get the multi line discounts and stuff, I mean it's gonna be a lot less than what you, what you saw on there. But that's the two sites, Iprintandship.com and remember you can't put an ampersand inside of the main domain so it's literally the word iprintandship.com and then if you really want to get lost, you go to iprintandshipstore.com and you can see condoms and every flags and everything else.

Well, I hear they're best selling. That's your top selling item. I don't know, it's just interesting to me.

I'm just kidding.

I don't know. Oh man. Yeah, we'll link everything up in the show notes too so there's no confusion for everyone but awesome. Let's ask the book question. Matt, what's the book question?

The book question. Do you have any books that you often reference or refer back to or you know, recommend to people often?

Oh man. Again, my mama would be proud of me for being honest. But no, I don't really.

Man, that's awesome. That's the best answer.

I don't.

You're honest.

I don't read, man. Like I'll do audio stuff, you know, audio books and everything. But man, I have a such a hard Time reading. It's. It's funny. It really started probably about 10 or 15 years ago, and man, my mind just like, I have a. I just have a super hard time reading.

Yeah.

So, you know, if someone wants me to, like, really, you know, it's like, okay, is it on? Is it on? Is there an audiobook? You know, is. There's an audiobook for it and stuff like that. What I will tell you is that the people that. I mean, I have a lot of friends. I mean, you guys are amazing. And I mean, I've actually followed you guys podcast for quite a while, so this is kind of like a dream come true. That's awesome that I'm on you guys podcast, like, you know, my heroes. And here I am, like, I feel like I've, like, arrived or something, but it's like, all serious and I'm not even thinking about. Matt and I probably did like a promo together like, five or six years ago. But, you know, podcasts are amazing for what I just said.

So, like, I mean, do you guys. I don't want to. Are you cool if I, like, recommend another podcast or do you not want me, like, I want to be careful with.

Oh, no, go for it. Absolutely. Like, that community is a very symbiotic community. We all help each other out. So.

Cool. Cool. So what I will say is that as far as things that I listen to that. That have helped me. So. Not reading, but listen to. I mean, Gary Vaynerchuk has definitely been a. A big influence on me. I think a lot of it is because he's a lot like me. You know, my family was check and, you know, my mom. You know, he talks about his mom a lot. My mom was my hero and, you know, and stuff like that, and, you know, supported me from day one, but also, you know, disciplined me the way I should be disciplined, you know, and things like that. So I really respect. I know he can be vulgar and kind of brash, and he's kind of like an acquired taste for some. For some people. But, I mean, he's just. He has a lot of influence and has had influence on me, and I respect what he does, and I respect that he stays in his wheelhouse. I mean, if there's. You guys asked about working on something, and that's another thing I can definitely get better at is delegating and just staying in my wheelhouse. He, you know, my business partner said something to me the other day that I thought was actually quite profound, and she is. She's really good at this and you guys met Rachel when we met in San Diego, and she said, you know what the problem is? You're not useless enough in some of the areas of the business. And I thought, Kylie. And it made me think of Gary Vee, how the guy can't even put a sentence together in an email. So, like, his team literally will not let him write anything. It's like, I know he does try to answer all his emails, and I've emailed back and forth with him.

And stuff, and I've given a lot to some of his charities and things like that. And, man, it's like, yeah, the guy can't put a sentence together and so lowercase, so they won't let it. But he knows that, you know, he's totally knows that. The other one that I really like is how I built this.

That's a good. Yeah, it's npr.

Yeah. I mean, it just. Yeah. And I mean, you know, I actually stumbled upon that. I think, actually Justin Brooke, you guys might know Justin Brooke, I think he sent an email out one time and was recommending all the podcasts that he listened to. So give him some credit. And, man, that one is just awesome to hear. It's like, what, you know, when you guys are, you know, here asking me about my backstory, that's what I love about just hearing about what people did in their business through adversity and what they did to pivot and shift and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Everything from, you know, the guy that owned that, you know, owned Chipotle and what he did when the big old, you know, E. Coli or Listeria or whatever the heck it was, you know, I mean, literally almost freaking ended Chipotle, you know, I mean, just listening to how he worked through that. And now they're, you know, obviously still massively successful in building, you know, franchises and everything everywhere. So, you know, so that's. That's a really, really good one that I like to listen to.

I love.

Yeah.

Yeah. And what you're going back to the consumption of content and stuff. I think you're just so busy doing stuff and actually taking action that, I mean, that's. Nothing wrong with that, man. Some people just get stuck in the books and resources without actually doing anything. So, I mean.

Yeah, that's a really great point, Joe, is that, like, I think you're right. I think that people can become information junkies, and then what happens is you're actually not really learning anything.

Thing. Totally.

You really don't learn until you act. I mean, you really really, really don't learn and get better and stuff until you act. You know, everybody's, you know, debating who the basketball goat is, right. And you know, if you. But if you look at like Michael Jordan, you know, and you know, Carson, I get Lebron, is it Michael Jordan, blah, blah, blah. And I'm not a huge basketball fan, but I'm kind of up on current events. And you know, if you look at Michael Jordan, it's like the reason why he was so good wasn't because he read a basketball book or like read every fricking periodical or whatever on basketball he did. It's just because he would shoot 10,000 free throws over a summer.

Yeah, he freaking practiced.

And you know.

Yeah.

No business, it's so maps onto business. And I think that people don't think about it that way. You're kind of forced to with sports and entertainment stuff like that. You're like forced to do that. And that's why a lot of great athletes become great businessmen and businesswoman because true, they understand that. It's that on the court experience, day to day, you have a fire in the warehouse. You know, the ship that was bringing all your shit over gets hit by a hurricane or like, you know, whatever it is, some dude gets run over by a forklift or, you know, you know, somebody. We print 2500 shirts for somebody and like every single shirt is crooked. I mean, like, you know.

It'S the day to day experiences and stuff like that that really, in my experience really help you grow and get better than reading a book or something like that.

Yeah, for sure.

Well said.

Well, cool.

I want to get you off, but.

You should add a book. You should add a book to all your funnels.

Yes, add a book to all the funnels.

Jeff promises to read them all.

Jeff will never read them, but add them to your funnel.

I'm literally just spit my water out. Yeah.

Honest man, Jeff, I love it. Well, cool.

We got to get you off to dinner. I know we, we kept you about 15 minutes longer than we promised. So thanks so much for spending the time with us and I think there's a lot of great takeaways for people here and hopefully this gets more people doing some physical print fulfillment and ideally using iprint and ship.

Heck yeah. So we'll link everything in the show notes again. And Jeff, thank you for your time, man, and looking forward to printing more cool stuff. Condoms maybe. I don't know about that.

I mean, I have to say thank you to you guys and shout out to your audience guys, listen to everything these guys say, but not only listen, but act upon it. These guys are brilliant. And I mean, like, absolutely. Just do what you can to act upon all the information you guys are learning from Hustle and Flowchart. And it was an absolute honor and privilege to be on here. Guys, thank you for letting me share and beyond here.

That's super cool. Thank you very much. Thanks, Jeff. Have a good one.

All right, guys. All right. Take care.

You too.

All right. Bye. Bye.

Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice, simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to, and give us your email address, and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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