Joe Sanok - The #1 Secret for Creating the Lifestyle you Always Wanted

We know from the science that our brains, when they're stressed out, when they're overwhelmed, even if it's all these businesses and it's not even actual time going into it, we know that you're going to default to what you already know, that doing new behaviors is harder when you're stressed out. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Wiki, wiki Wiki.

Hello, friend. Hey, and friend. Listening. How are y'? All?

I'm doing good.

Yeah?

Yeah.

I'm waiting on a response from you.

All right. They're good. That was good. Cool. I felt it. I felt it through the airwaves somehow. Airwaves? Yeah. We're in radio again. Maybe we are. All right.

So today there's no airwaves going on right now.

No, I don't think so. So we're chatting with second round that this guy's been on.

First round for you.

That's true. On our podcast, at least. Yes.

Joe ditched. Joe flat out ditched the last few.

Years for a good reason. You'll hear why in a minute. All right. But I think you'll. You got my back on this. I can. I was okay. But that was the only episode I've never been on.

His reasons were iffy. Iffy.

He's always away. I know, I know. All right, so Joe Sanog, he has. This is the round two. He's been on. First round. He was with you?

Yep.

And chatting all about how he's grown his podcast, like, to ridiculous numbers. Oh, dude.

It was a very, very systematic, tactical episode about, like, building a podcast and mapping out what going to go on the podcast. Excellent episode. Highly recommended. Totally different than what we talked about on this one.

Completely different. But it's great because it's kind of this. You can see the evolution and it builds on what some of the stories Joe talks about. But his podcast, for instance, Practice of the Practice is his biggest one, I think the main one. But that one, I mean, he's been hitting in the top 50 podcasts worldwide, over 100,000 downloads every single month. I mean, dude's doing it right? So definitely go back to that previous episode, get the notes or whatever. Check them out if you already have them. This episode that we're talking about, basically, well, he has a new book coming out, but all the concepts around what this book stands for. His book is called Thursday is the New how to Work Fewer Hours, Make More Money and Spend Time Doing what yout Want.

Yeah. So that subtitle right there is pretty much the conversation we have in this episode.

Yeah. So that is being released. It's not released yet at the time of this drop, but. October 5th.

Yes.

So you can pre order it, go to his website, go To Amazon, Joe Sanock.com is. You can go find it there as well.

And it's spelled, spelled S A N O, K. That's correct.

And what else? I mean, he's getting. We talk about all the cool stuff he's doing, but Joe's just a super down to earth guy. We connected with him back at Steve Ulcer's event, like. Yeah, about a few. Four years ago, whatever, three, four years ago. And just hit it off ever since. He does some cool stuff with sponsorships too. I remember that's what we were hitting off back in the day. So.

Yeah, I think some of that might be in the last episode that we did with him.

I think so. Yeah. So if any of this also piques your interest, of course you have POD Hacker. And we'll talk about that a little later. I just wanted to throw that out there. It's like, you know, maybe we'll bring him into that program as an expert one of these days too, if he's open for it. But that would be cool. But let's talk about the action guides they can also get. Yeah.

Stick around to the end of the episode because I did ask him how he got published on HarperCollins and he literally broke down the whole story. So if that's something you're interested in, is getting published by a traditional publisher. He basically gave a roadmap. So make sure you hang out to the end. But yes, if you go to flowchartgroup.com, you can join our Facebook group and we'll also hook you up with the action guide to this episode. And you're going to want that. So. Flowchartgroup.com.

Alrighty. And I think we have a beautiful sponsor that would like to be talked about right now.

Yeah. Well, let's go talk about it.

Yo.

Hey.

Hi.

You're here.

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Who wouldn't?

Yeah, I mean, we have a lot of traffic. Do you think we want more or do you think everyone else would deserve or would like more for their websites as well?

Can we do it for free?

Is this a rhetorical question? Yes, it's a rhetorical question. Dang. Right?

Yeah. Well, I wanna know if I can do it for free.

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Because if you go over to ahrefs.comawt, they have a new cool tool. Well, it's a cool tool.

Cool tool, yeah.

Called Ahrefs Webmaster Tools. And it's over@ahrefs.com.

And it does a lot of the same stuff that the full fledged Ahrefs does, but it's a free version.

So they. They basically made this tool. Webmaster tools. Yeah. Ahrefs.com awt, it's gonna monitor your SEO health of your website. So you can make sure, hey, are there any issues I should be looking at? And it basically scans your site. There's like over a hundred typical SEO issues that would like flag, Google and all the search engines. Well, it's gonna tell you what's wrong with your site. So, you know, ex. Actually, the advice on how to fix those things, that's pretty dang important. I mean, SEO still is our number one new traffic driver for our websites. Really? That's across all of our websites. That's how people discover us. So you might as well have a little read a finger in the pulse of the health of your website. And the SEO, it also does backlink monitoring, all these other search traffic terms and things. It's free, though.

It's free. Yeah. Monitor your SEO health, backlinks and keywords for free over at Ahrefs.com Awt that rhyme. And we're back. Let's go talk to Joe Sinoc now.

Let's do it. Mr. Joe, how are you? Good to have you back.

I'm doing awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah. I love this show. I'm so glad to be back on it.

Yeah.

This is. Yeah. I mean, the first time Joe Fear didn't get to interview, he had more important things to do, like having a baby.

Yeah, yeah. You know, big deal, right? Podcast baby. That would have been interesting from the room, but no, I just show up.

To the hospital with the equipment. Hey, the show must go on, Joe. Always.

But I heard the show, the episode. It was the only one I missed. And it was an okay episode. Not because of you. Not because of you, Joe.

No, I definitely carried the episode. I definitely knew carrying it.

You were the fill in, Joe, and it was great. It's true. It's true.

I don't know how to do this alone.

Well, we're gonna make up for that episode with this one. And we're talking about something completely different. I mean, that was all about podcasting, which you are a total rock star in practice. Of the practice. And you have another one as well, I believe, right?

Yeah. Podcast launch school.

That's it.

Yeah. Now we have Thursday is the new Friday.

Oh, that's a new podcast.

That's a show too.

Well, it's going to. It's probably by the time this airs, we'll have a short form show just kind of around the book, like extra enhancements beyond it. So, yeah, very cool.

So, yeah, the new book is coming out in what you said October, right?

October 5th. Yeah.

Thursday is the new Friday and it's basically what you have. What Pat Flynn. Jld. All these guys talking about it, but what Pat Flynn called it the new four hour. It's kind of a big deal, I'd say.

Seriously, like I expected to like, yeah, go read this book. And you know, I mean, but Pat, to have Pat Flynn, who I've looked up to forever for sure call it the New four Hour Workweek was like, oh my gosh. Like, thank you, Pat. That's insane.

Well, I know he, yeah, he started online around the time that book came out, because that was roughly around when we're all starting to dabble with online marketing, podcasting. How about yourself? Like, when did you get into this space? Like, was that a big book for you? Four Hour Workweek?

It was. You know, in 2009, I started my counseling private practice and just was learning a bunch of kind of business things that I never learned in college. So I started listening to a lot of those guys and reading a bunch of books like guerrilla marketing and four hour workweek. And then in 2012 is when I launched Practice of the Practice, that podcast and website, just as a side gig to hopefully pay off some student loan debt and then eventually got to leave my full time job to go podcast and counsel people.

It's done all right. Yeah, no, I know you.

It's done all right.

Yeah, you've grown that thing ridiculous. Like, it just what you're doing something like 100,000 downloads a month, I think it is on that show. I mean, that's. Yeah, it's so cool. It's just, you know, because we have a lot of podcasters listening, of course. So, I mean, it's a very niche type show, but I mean, check it out. The results are showing for themselves there and you're getting featured all over the place for it too, so.

Well, and I think that it also shows how when you really niche in like, you don't even need to have that big of an audience to be successful because I was teaching counselors and private Practitioners how to start growing scale of private practice. And, you know, they're making between 100 and 300 bucks an hour. So if I can teach them how to make more of that, I can charge, you know, two to three times that hourly rate. So very quickly, $900 an hour is easy to charge. Whereas if you're just teaching general business, like, it's hard to justify that. So you're going to have such a smaller audience when you have that specialty. And then, like, all my work was around counselors and private practice, and so I outpaced any of the other business people because I knew my market, and for a while, I wanted to jump and be the next Pat Flynn and do general. You know, a lot of the book that I wrote this time is. But, you know, really to say, how do you actually make money at this stuff? It's, you know, when you're actually doing something that's that niched in, it's a lot easier to just focus in on your audience and create products that they want.

Yeah. You have a specific need, some solution that you can give to them and roll from there. And it's like, hey, exactly. Word of mouth.

Yeah. So last time we chatted, it was prior to this epic road trip that you guys did, you know, fill in some of the details. From the last time we got to. We talked was probably a year and a half ago now is when that last episode came out.

There was a global pandemic.

Yeah, it was part of that. Yeah. Well, then in that case, it was more than a year and a half ago, wasn't it? Because it wasn't in 2020 that we talked. It must have been.

My daughter was born Halloween of 2019.

So that was. So there you go. Yeah. So it was pre pandemic. Yeah. So maybe that was a year and a half.

Yeah.

Okay. So anyway, the question is, let's fill in the details, like, where did this road trip come from and what did you guys. And how did you even feel comfortable going on a road trip in the first place? When most entrepreneurs listening going, I don't know how I'm gonna get away from my computer for two hours.

Yeah. Well, for one, I was already location independent before the pandemic. I had sold my counseling private practice in 2019, was testing out, working from home, didn't have an office to go to on purpose to just see if I could turn my home office into a studio, get all the right soundproofing, all that. So already I was kind of paring down how I was working And I was down to two days a week at that point. And then, you know, when, when we went on the road, it was really, how do I push this even more? So could I do four days a month of really intense work? And then, you know, of course I'm going to fill in the gaps here and there with some email. And so the getting away from the desk thing, that was never going to be a problem. It was just making sure I had Internet in the middle of national parks, which was its own side conversation. We can go down if we want to, but we'll just say I had five backups for my Internet, which was crazy expensive, but there's only a couple times I had to reschedule due to Internet, and figured out that basically, if you're in a national park, you're not going to get even the best satellite Internet isn't going to pick up anything there. So starting with that, it really was the idea that Zoom School for our kids was probably not going to be as educational as being on the road. And this was something that I had thought through for a while, even before the pandemic of going on the road. So when the pandemic hit, it actually was a bummer because all These people bought RVs when we thought it was going to be like RV sale time where we could negotiate. And, you know, the people that we tried to negotiate with just basically laughed at us. They're like, you have one of three versions of this RV. We know we can sell it 10 minutes after we talk to you. So do you want it or not? And so we bought it from California and had them bring it all the way to Michigan for us to only drive back to California.

Wow.

But from September 2020 until late April 2021, I was on the road with my 2D and their. Their mom and just, you know, with the idea that it's a lot better to just give kids experiences than just sitting around. Nothing against Zoom School. It's definitely a place of privilege that we got to do this, but kind of put together our own road schooling curriculum where our oldest kid, Lucia, she had this online, like, tutoring program, and then this other thing called Beast Academy, which is math. And then throughout the space. Yeah. And then. And then everything else really was, you know, national parks have some great junior Rang programs and really letting them follow their curiosity. And then we had a weekly podcast called Leave to Find that we also documented the entire thing. Mostly it was Lucia and I, because Lake and our six year old just didn't ever want to Talk. She would just sit and eat snacks while we were podcasting. And that became like the joke, like Lake and just got hungry as we're about to podcast yet again. Like get your own food kid or.

Cheez its on the microphone.

Seriously, it's like Goldfish should have been a sponsor of ours. But then to see even Lucia, who is 9 at the time, she's 10 now, go from being kind of nervous with a microphone to being an amazing storyteller and having animation and just these things that man, when you see a kid be able to communicate, like that's gonna help them be successful so much more than just being able to do a math problem. And that sense of awe and appreciation for our country and just like having experiences that are just totally crazy. I mean it was, it was an amazing learning experience for all of us.

What was the. Where was the standout spot for you? Was there a national park or something obscure along the way?

You know, I mean there were so many things for me that just were so different from each other. I think that to see Lucia and Lake and have their favorite spots was so exciting. So we went to Meteor Crater in northern Arizona. And Lucia is really into space right now. And so for her to go through the experience of learning about this meteor and what they are and being able to correct people when they say comet or meteor, like she knows all these differences. Also seeing her in Carlsbad Caverns in southern New Mexico, she really likes caves right now. And I mean she's just an expert in caves for her age.

Spelunking and then.

Spelunking. Yeah. And she can still name all the different types of formations inside the caves. So that was incredible to see. And then with Lake and she has always kind of been a rock hound. She's been interested in rocks. She's really kind of like a mindful little kid, like our little guru. And we were at Petrified Forest and I swear she could have sat there and just stared at these rocks for days. And I felt bad having her leave because she would just be so observant and I mean like she was tripping on LSD or something just looking at a rock. There was actually a research study that looked at kids brains compared to someone on LSD and they found that under the age of 5 that kids brains are closer to someone on LSD than as an adult brain because they're just taking all the awareness in.

So did I. Yeah. My, my year and a half year old is, is. Is like that. Like she predicted. Not predicted, but she Was talking about her, her great grandma the other day. It was like a minute before her great grandma called. I was like, this has happened a lot. Like there's some. Something going on with kids. Like they're tapped in on a different wavelength. But I agree we got to get back to it. But yeah, us adults have to find other mechanisms sometimes we just got to.

Take lsd, what can I say?

Oh yeah, I've not done that.

Neither have I. But similar stuff.

Well, let's. I'm kind of curious about like the transition from your practice because I think you're working like 60 plus hours a week. Right? Like, so you went from like crazy time to. And location dependent to then not obviously with the RV trip and before that and obviously your book Thursday is a new Friday. Like you basically have a whole different schedule that you present people. But even for yourself, I'm sure it's like radically different than just like a few years ago. Right?

Yeah. So in 2014, when I was working at the community college, I had a 40 hour work week with the community college, my side private practice, and my podcasting consulting. So that's when it was for sure the busiest. But then I took the full family medical Leave act into 2015 when my youngest was born to just see if I could work less, to work 20 hours a week through the college to pay for health insurance and then do the private practice. But then I ended up leaving that job, did just the private practice. And when that happened, I said, like, what, what schedule do I want? Then I ran the numbers to see, like, what would I actually have to do in regards to clients, in regards to consulting. And then in the first month hit those numbers and I was only working three days a week at that point. So I right away said, you know, let's step back and you know, just work three or four days a week, always take Fridays off. Did an experiment around that the first summer. It was great. And so kept taking Fridays off. And they quickly moved to, well, let's do an experiment on if I took Mondays off too. And the numbers just kept climbing even though I was working so many fewer hours. And so kind of over the time I just continued to work only those three days a week, even though I had the private practice. But I kept adding clinicians so that our income kept going up. And so we got up to 11 clinicians that and we're seeing caseloads to be able to have that passive income that wasn't based on my own time. But then when I sold the practice in 2019 again. It was sort of a what do I want to do? And I said, well, you know, in the past, I just kind of kept shaving things off. And I said, if I want this book deal, eventually I need to make sure I have a day dedicated to really creativity. So I switched to working Tuesday and Wednesday. And then Thursday became my big work day. And so for a good year, before I even started sending out the book proposal, I was working with a writing coach. And every Thursday we would meet and we'd have a good two hour session together. I'd have to write and do all these things and then, you know, she'd write. And then eventually we had this 20 page proposal to submit to HarperCollins and other places. So then Thursday just stayed my writing day until the book was done right before the road trip. And so I was in that habit. But then when I was done writing it, I said, well, should I replace that time or should I just not work it? So then paired off Thursday as well. So it was then Tuesday and Wednesday. And then as we were in national parks, kind of pared it down more and more.

I love it, man. And what you're saying is exactly what Matt and I have been doing, kind of. Exactly. We take Wednesdays off. So I'm kind of curious of like, obviously Friday, it seems like probably the easier day you can take off with schedules and all that, but is there any reason Friday over another day of the week?

Yeah, I would say it's more of a metaphor for taking an extra day off if we really go macro. But if you really look at the historical side of how we even got our weeks, it's pretty crazy. The Babylonians, several thousand years ago, they made up the seven day week. It was completely random. It was because they could see the sun, the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars and Jupiter. And those were like the brightest things that they saw. So they said seven days. You know, the Egyptians had a 10 day week, the Romans had an eight day week. So that's made up in nature. A year makes sense because we go around the sun a day makes sense because that's what it takes to rotate. But there's nothing in nature that's seven days. Days like that, it has to be seven days. So it could just as easily have been a five day week. And we had 73 of those weeks.

So starting with that and then kind of moving into, people in the late 1800s, early 1900s, were working 10 to 14 hours a day, six to seven days a week. So then when Henry ford brings the 40 hour workweek. That's a huge step in the evolution of business. And so we then start to see in the 80s. I don't know if you guys remember ABC's TGIF with full house and all that. I mean by that point Fridays really were moving into being more like the weekend if people were going to work and showing up. I mean it's when you had birthday parties, it's when you had baby showers. You might do a visioning retreat where you have to do a trust fall into your like coworker's arms.

We all wear blue jeans to work today.

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna wear blue jeans, Jean Friday. So to me, I mean Friday has already kind of moved into the weekend. It's when people are planning their, their weekend or you know, texting their friends, they're on social media. So it's a half worked day anyway. And so why not just move it into the category of weekend instead of just keeping it there?

Yeah, I like it man, because for us we've been doing this, what, for maybe a few months now, four months or so, this whole Wednesday off thing.

Yeah, yeah, it's been, yeah, I would say maybe two months that we've been doing it consistently before that we were saying we were doing it but stuff would still creep in every Wednesday and we'd still be doing quite a bit.

Well, we did, I mean we had to time, we, we chose to time block obviously, like for as far as possible. Yeah.

But what I like about Wednesday specifically, just speaking for us is it actually feels like we have two Fridays a week.

Right.

We come in, we work on Monday, Tuesday. At the end of the day on Tuesday we're kind of like, it feels like a Friday. We're hanging out, going, well, what are you going to do tomorrow? Going to the zoo, going to the beach. What's your plans for the weekend? Right, that's our Tuesdays and that's also now our Friday. It's also our Fridays. Right. So it feels like we're working two days and then we have something. You kind of have that weekend to look forward to on Wednesday. Then you're working two days and you have that weekend to look forward to after Friday. And that sort of flow I think mentally was really, really beneficial. It just kind of always feels like, eh, I just got a sprint for two days and then I'm out. And then I just got to sprint for two days and I'm out, you know.

No, that's awesome. I did Wednesdays for a little bit too. I Tested that out. And same sort of thing where you feel like you have those two Fridays. And I mean, I think you guys tapped into it where you have to set those very hard boundaries around it because things will creep in. There's always more that we can do. But Matt, you really touched on it. Where we're going to the beach tomorrow. We're going to the zoo tomorrow is when you schedule the fun things in and say, you know, I am taking like. So for example, every Wednesday night I have improv. I'm part of an improv troupe. I have to show up for it. It's a non negotiable. My parents have said, we will watch the kids any Wednesday night. When you have that thing, you're going to show up for it. Whereas if you leave it open, it's like, well, I could check a little bit more email, I could do a little bit more. I could do an extra podcast episode. So I think it's awesome that you're scheduling things into your days off to like make yourself go to the zoo or to the beach.

M. No, it's fun first. Yeah, schedule the fun first. And we've had so many different people tell us that's such a better strategy than scheduling the big rocks of work first. It's like flip that paradigm and then you start to realize how much time you actually do have for yourself.

Kind of curious of maybe the mechanisms that you choose when you're walking people through in the book. I think you have some quizzes, assessments and stuff like that to kind of customize it. But how would someone approach it through, you know, going through your. Your thought process here from like a loaded work week to yeah, you know.

One thing that you're kind of touching on is what in the book I talk about, which are sprint types. And so we often hear, oh, go do a 20 minute sprint, or this is the one way you're supposed to time block or, you know, yeah, but the thing is, is the research actually shows that there's kind of two different axes of how people sprint best. And so say someone tries one of the 20 minute sprints and they're like, that didn't work for me. It's like, it's not that the sprinting didn't work for you, it's that you don't know your sprint type. And so if we start with, you know, are you more of a time block sprinter or are you more of a task switch sprinter? So a time block sprinter is a person that we might call them someone that batches so you guys are going to do four or five podcast interviews, and it's all podcast interviews all in, you know, an afternoon. So that's a time block where it's all the same task. Whereas task switch sprinters need the variety. So they're still sprinting, but they're gonna do, say, a 20 minute sprint. I'm gonna just like, tear through my emails and then I'm gonna outline this new pod, this solo podcast, and then I'm gonna spend 20 minutes, you know, doing some consulting calls. So they're switching. They need that variety in their brain. And so different people have different ways that they do that. But we often hear, okay, you're supposed to just like time block for the whole afternoon and just do that one thing. Well, that's not always true with everyone's brain. So that's one way of thinking about it. And then if we think about it as an x, Y axis. So the other side of it would be, are you more of an automated sprinter or are you more of an intensive sprinter? So an automated sprinter is someone that they put something in their calendar and it repeats. So for me, that was every Thursday. I'm working on the book. I'm an automated sprinter. Every Thursday, boom, it's going to do that. And that just repeated in my calendar. Nothing could get scheduled because that was just a writing day. Whereas people that are intensive sprinters are people like Dr. Jeremy Sharp, who I talk about in the book. He has the Testing Psychologist podcast. He has this really big practice in Fort Collins, Colorado, and he goes away for a long weekend to just tear through things. But he thinks through it really strategically, he finds an Airbnb that is within walking distance to a coffee shop and a vegan restaurant. Because he's vegan, he makes sure there's a backyard because he wants to be inside and outside. He wants to have hopefully a hot tub or something like that to decompress. So he has all these kind of checklist things he goes through to find the perfect Airbnb. And then he goes away for three or four days and just absolutely kills it. That, for me, I don't do as well with that as having shorter sprints. That's just routinely every week. But he knows who he is, so he gets way more done in those four days compared to if I went away on a retreat for four days. So I think when people really think about their sprint types, it takes that relief off, like you're not doing it wrong. You just didn't figure out your sprint type.

Yeah, no. It makes Sense, I've never thought about it in that way. So how does someone figure out who they are? Like, are there a couple questions or things they can think about?

Yeah, yeah. So in the book I walk people through kind of how to assess themselves for their sprint types, but I think even without buying the book to just start to test it out. So maybe put in your calendar on a certain day for an hour that it's just going to repeat every Thursday or Monday or whenever your best, you got to write blogs or whatever your thing is that you're working on. And then also schedule some time to go away for a weekend and just compare the two. Do an AB test between is it more automated or is it more, you know, I need to go away for an intensive and there's going to be different periods of life when that shifts for you. So when I was on the road it was really hard for me to get away for four hours to go work on one thing or if it rained on one of the days and I was going to podcast outside and then it's raining and I'm in the camper and it's like making all this noise, I'm not going to podcast. And so we also have, or if we have a new baby, there's gonna be things that change your sprint types, but you still have your natural preference that you have now.

How much from your book, how much automation plays into the stuff that you teach? Cause I feel like the reason we're able to do what we do now, the reason we're able to take Wednesdays off and on the two days a week, well, the two day weeks that we currently work, we have just a handful of things that we do. But for the most part we, we've got team members, we've got automations, we've got systems. So like we've basically pared down to like these are the only four things we need to focus on because everything else has happened through automations or team members. How much of that plays into, you know, what you're talking about and taking Fridays off and you know, paring down your work week.

Yeah, And I mean, I think that's one of the big things that the research supports is that when you give yourself less time to do something, you get it done still. So Parkinson's law time, I'm sorry, work fills to the time that's given for it.

Right.

So when we look at that, when we think about it, okay, so the average entrepreneur is wearing all these hats, they're stressed out all the time and they say, you know what, I'm going to cut out Fridays. I'm going to cut out 20% of my week. What do you do with that other 80%? If you have all this stuff that needs to be done? Well, you do your best stuff. You're not going to dink around on email if you know that you can land a client that's going to pay you $1,200 a month on, you know, for half an hour of your time. And so even if you think about, okay, usually it takes me an hour to clean the kitchen, I'm going to spend 20 minutes cleaning the kitchen. You're probably not going to just clean in the corner and the cracks, unless that really pisses you off. You're going to get the dishes done, you're going to put the dishes away, you're going to wipe the counters. It's going to look relatively clean in that 20 minutes. Now, if you always do that, at a certain point, your kitchen probably needs a deep clean. So maybe one of those sprints. You need a deep clean. But we naturally work on the highest level of things first when we don't give ourselves enough time. And so by giving yourself less time, you're naturally going to start dropping the ball. We talked through kind of what you can do when you drop the ball. I mean, you're going to ask yourself, like, should I even be doing this thing? Can I just totally get rid of it? Maybe it was like a double task that, like, why are we filling our time with this? The other side of Parkinson's Law was he noticed, especially in the military, that how bloated budgets and systems started getting over time. And so a lot of what we do is double effort. It's, it's things that we thought were automations, but actually it's just like a ton of red tape we've created for ourselves. So it could just be you get rid of it. It could be that you really shouldn't be the one that's still designing every single podcast work of art. And you could pay someone 15 bucks an hour to do something that super high level people.

Are not doing, you shouldn't be doing. And so it could be that you outsource it. It could be that there's some software as a service that can do it. So all the processes help after you've dropped the ball, because that really reveals like, man, I should not be checking my email. I missed this email from someone. If I just had someone going through my email on a regular basis, that would help me catch These really important emails.

Yeah, no, I feel like that's a conversation Joe and I have actually been having quite recently, too, because we sort of would beat ourselves up on some of the stuff that we dropped the ball on. But most of the time, when you really look at it, the stuff you dropped the ball on is the stuff that you kind of intuitively realize probably the least important stuff. Otherwise you probably wouldn't have dropped the ball on it.

Right.

And so there's a little bit of an element of giving yourself grace. Right. And just kind of going, look, let yourself drop the ball on a few things. If it becomes an issue, then, you know, figure out how to shore up that issue so you don't drop the ball anymore. But in most cases, the stuff you're dropping the ball on is probably the least important stuff. If you're looking at the 80 20, that's probably the, you know, the 80% that. That's producing the 20% of results for you. So maybe it's not necessary.

Well, that's what you just said relates Right here is how we've kind of shifted our thinking from time spent on something to what's the actual action that we're choosing to do right now in our business? And we had to do a hard look. We chose to do a hard look, did the 80 20, maybe even a 9010 on a lot of this stuff we're doing. Yeah, I think that helped me personally release a lot of that. Maybe a little guilt associated with it or this feeling like, I just got more to do, I want to do more. It's like. Well, I think entrepreneurs are always inclined to have that drive. You know, we're kind of like that, you know, Alex Charfen, who calls them evolutionary hunters. It's like we're the type that's just going out and get more. You know, we can't really turn it off, but we got to give ourselves these bumpers or containers and then focus on what are the key things that are going to actually move the thing to the results we're trying to get after.

Well, we did like an 8020 analysis on, like, where is most of our time being spent right now? And we did an 8020 analysis on. On what is the, you know, the 20% of actions that generate 80% of the results. And it was pretty impressive how there was not much of a correlation between time spent and the actions taken that generate the results.

Yeah. You know, and I think that even just when I think about how I approach my email, which for most entrepreneurs is this just burden that they hate but they know they need. So I have my director of details, Jess, who is reading through my email constantly. She stars the top level ones. So I go in and I know there's the 10 or 15 a day that I need to spend some time on instead of the 200 some that come through. And then she texts me if a consulting client sends an email, if my attorney sends an email, if my kid's mom sends an email. So those are the ones that I don't want to miss ever. Like, I want to know if my bookkeeper accountant sends me an email. Like she texts me right away and says, hey, it's Greg, just sent you an email. Okay, I'm going to go check that right now and not get sucked into email world. So, I mean, that's just a small example of setting those boundaries around my brain. Because a lot of times we don't protect our brains when we know we have high level things coming up. And so, for example, like for this interview, I had some free time ahead of time. I do a solo show once a week that I added now. So we have three shows a week and it's just a simple 10 minute question. You know, someone asks a question, I answer it. So it doesn't take a lot of brain spirit. But I chose not to do that even though I had the time to. I chose to eat a sandwich and watch Peaky Blinders to just like allow myself to like have my brain be like free coming into this interview. So I protected it. I wasn't checking the news this morning. I didn't check any email because I don't want to come into an interview and have anything clouding up what I can think. And so that's the side of where I think entrepreneurs often miss it. We see books that are all strategy and they're like, here's how you do sprints and all that. Or we see mindfulness books that are all about being centered and being a guru. But the research actually shows that when you slow down, you have better clarity on what you need to spend your time on. And so if you're taking a Wednesday off and the weekend off and you're genuinely setting boundaries around it and letting your brain be optimized, then when you actually get to the week, you can kill it. Whereas most people spend the whole week just charging through, they're checking email at night. So even then when they're done, their brains are still scrambled going into bedtime. They then don't sleep, sleep as well, and then they barely refuel over the weekend because they have soccer practice in the yard and they don't eat well, they just want to escape and they drink too much and then they feel hungover and next thing you know it's Monday morning and you wonder why, you know, you really aren't that productive. And so actually I would say the prequel to what we've been talking about is the whole idea of how do we slow down in a way that actually matches what our brain needs.

I like that because that this is something we have no proof of the science, but maybe you do, because this is more of your specialty is like, like what your brain's doing subconsciously with all the stuff, like the to do list, the never ending things that we schedule for ourselves or calls that are coming up. It's all like the underlying things that we might not consciously be thinking of. Like, we gotta do this. But like you said, our brains aren't turning off overnight. When we're going on a walk or when we're hanging out with our kids, that thing's still going. So like, what do you know? I don't know if that's in the book or not, but that's something subconsciously, I think when we start to cut some of that stuff off, like the actions take that Wednesday off for us. It's almost like everything else has chilled out. We've been able to just like.

Well, just like another example of what you're saying. So what we've had a tendency to do over the years with our business is we'd systematize, we'd hire team members, we'd cut things off of our plate and then we'd go, oh, we found more time. An opportunity would come along and we'd be like, we've got the time. Let's bring this opportunity onto our plate as well. Right. Because we freed up all of this space to be able to do stuff like this. Next thing we know, we're involved in like four or five businesses. None of them are like super actively taking up our brain power. But subconsciously we're now in problem solving mode for five different businesses instead of two different businesses. So this is what Joe is saying with like, we don't know the science behind this because we've never really studied it in that much depth. But what it feels like is just having less on your plate. Your subconscious is solving problems for only one or two things as opposed to five things.

Yeah, I'll definitely talk about the science, but I think that a practical story would exemplify this. So we know from the science that our brains, when they're stressed out, when they're overwhelmed, even if it's all these businesses and it's not even actual time going into it, we know that you're going to default to what you already know, that doing new behaviors is harder when you're stressed out. So when I was in Nepal, I was in the Chitwan jungle with my friend Tyler. And we were kind of walking through the jungle and our guide stops us and there's also this Peace Corps volunteer. So she's there and then this guy who had flown across the globe to declare his love for this Peace Corps volunteer, only to have her give him the cold shoulder. So it was like this awkward. Hi, nice to meet you. This is super weird. So our guide says to us, if we get chased by a wild rhinoceros, climb a tree. Now, I didn't ask any follow up questions like, can we practice climbing trees? Which trees should we climb? But he just kind of made this statement. It was like, yeah, I'm sure this won't happen. Well, within an hour we saw wild rhinoceros. It was before digital cameras, so I had a film camera. I take a picture, like, zip, zip, zip. And I don't know if that turned out well, so I took a step forward. So I take another picture. Like it could be blurry, I don't know. So I take another step forward and this rhino charges our group. And I had been a sprinter in high school and my friend Todd had been a long distance runner. So I knew for at least 200 yards I was going to be ahead of Todd.

You're good.

I didn't even think about climbing a tree. So I'm running through the jungle. Todd's running through the jungle. The Peace Corps volunteer and this dude are behind us. I'm like, there's three people as a buffer behind me.

So we finally stop and turn around and go back to where the rhino had been. Our guide is up a tree like he said, and he comes down the tree and he yells at us. He's like, why you know, go up tree? Why you know, go up tree? And it's like, why didn't I run up a tree when I'm getting chased by a rhino? Like, I knew I could outrun Todd. I knew I could outrun the Peace Corps volunteer. I went with what I knew, not what was probably best, me. So the research shows that over and over and over, when we're stressed out, our brains just can't talk to the parts of our brains that are best for us to have new information. It always defaults to that, you know, lizard brain. And so we don't realize how much stress is actually on us. But there's so many little things that can actually help. So there was a research study with the University of Illinois where they were looking at vigilance decrement. So vigilance how? Well, we pay attention to something decrement, meaning going down over time. And so until this study, the idea had been that, you know, you get a cup of, you know, brain power per day and you just pour it out throughout the day. At the end of the day, you go to sleep and it gets refilled. Vigilance decrement over time. And they wanted to see if that was true. So what they did is they brought in these college students and they gave them a four digit number. So say 4287. And so they said, when your number 4287 pops up on the screen, click this button. Any other numbers that come up, just ignore them. So super boring task. They're supposed to sit there for an hour. 4287, click all these other numbers, they don't click. So they noticed that over the hour. What happened? Vigilance decrement. The amount they paid attention went down over time. So they missed the 4, 2, 8, 7. They're daydreaming, whatever. So they had a second group, as you do in research studies, where at the 1/3 mark, they interrupted the task and they said, you know, we put you on the wrong computer. Why don't you go hang out over in the lobby, we'll get you set up in the right spot. Just one minute. They didn't allow them to be on any screens or anything. They had some nature magazines in the lobby. So then these people come back, they do another 20 minutes after that 20 minutes, they say, oh, sorry, you're in the wrong spot. Give them another one minute. Interrupted break. They found that there was no vigilance decrement within that period of time from that. So that means that there was no drop in how? Well, they paid attention to a super boring task. So why is that? Well, when you think about a new environment, just from an evolutionary standpoint, you're walking down a new path in a jungle where, you know, there's rhinos and there's tigers and there's all sorts of things that can kill you. From an evolutionary standpoint, the people that didn't pay attention died. The people that did pay attention did not die. So say You've walked this path even though you know that there's tigers and rhinos there for 20 years, and you saw one tiger 15 years ago, you're not going to be paying attention nearly as well as if it was the first time on this tiger path. So from our brain's perspective, in a new environment, if we can interrupt it, it pays attention better. So even if you're in the same environment, you're at a boring computer, you're working at your podcasting desk.

What?

However, if every 20 minutes or so, you even take a micro moment, a one minute break, to just walk up and down the stairs, step outside, take a breath of fresh air, whatever you need to do that isn't on a screen, that can help you get more done in a short period of time because it allows your brain to be refreshed and pay attention better.

Interesting. So it's almost like the pomodoro. Pomodoro method or something, right? It's like every 20 minutes and then five minutes off, I believe.

Yeah, yeah. And you don't. The research now is showing that you don't even need the full five minutes. Yeah, yeah, it's 20 minutes and you take one minute. Can be enough.

Or even just using your Apple Watch where it tells you to like, get up and walk around every. Whatever.

Yeah, interesting. Well, and there's different layers too, of, of tricking your brain to know that it's a different task. So, for example, every Thursday when I was writing, I had a specific playlist on Spotify that I only listened to. On Thursdays. I changed the lighting in my office where it was more dim. And, you know, I even sat in a different chair, moved my chair to a different spot. So my brain every week knows, all right, it's writing mode. Let's do this. So then I got into that flow state state quicker. Even when I'd go make lunch, I'd keep the headphones on. The girls, my girls knew, like, daddy's in writing mode. Like, don't even talk to him. Like, I'll come say hi to you if I want to do that. Otherwise, like, I don't want to get out of this flow state. And so then coming back into it, having the same lighting, the same music, all these things trick the brain to say, okay, right now, here's the task that has been assigned to this environment. And on those days, I never checked the news, I never checked email. If I saw texts from my assistant, I wouldn't even look at those till I had written for. For two or Three hours. So I protected my brain like crazy on those days. And what was the result? Well, I wrote a whole book from April until the end of August, working a day, day and a half a week. And so it's just like, you can do crazy things when you optimize the brain in a way that really helps you kind of make it come alive in the way that you want it to.

Dude. And I think your book, if I remember correctly, and obviously it's not out yet, but I think at Amazon, isn't it like 272 pages or something like that?

Yeah, something like. Let me see. I got it right here. Yeah, that. Yeah, I think you're close. Yeah, something like 244 is the version I have. But it's like you never know what the edits and all the other stuff would it end up being.

Yeah, Joe here saw a special edition that nobody else saw.

I mean, thank you, Joe.

If anybody would get the special edition, it'd be the Hustle and Flowchart guys.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you, sir. Oh, man. No, this is. This is interesting. I had a question in my mind now. It escaped me, but yeah, it's. Oh, well, I was thinking about slowing down. You mentioned flow states and you have sprint types. We talked about that. Creating boundaries. Talk about slowing down. I mean, obviously you said protecting your mind and all that stuff, but to stay in flow, are there other things? Because I know it's a big thing, is slow down to basically focus more, speed up, I guess the results. But what other things around slowing down could be helpful? Maybe for people that are struggling?

Yeah, I think a practical example would be. So every summer I host an event called Slowdown School.

So.

So people fly into Northern Michigan, we pick them up in a big yellow school bus. And it's just like we slow down, we drive 55 miles an hour instead of faster.

Do you sing songs on the bus?

Drive over? We don't usually. Cause people had just met each other, they'd known each other online. It's just like this amped up school bus.

But I mean, we even start with a five minute meditation in the bus. Just because it's like you've traveled, you've hurried, you are here like, okay, let's separate out the travel from the beginning of your experience. And so, you know, for then two and a half days, we genuinely slow down. I say, don't take out your phones unless you're taking a picture. Just turn them off. And so they know this ahead of time. So they have to set up systems so their business doesn't fall apart when they turn off the phone for two days and we go for hikes, we get massages, I bring in a yoga teacher, we play spike ball on the beach, we day drink and skip stones. We genuinely slow down and just enjoy being with each other other. And then on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of that week, we dive into their businesses and we really walk through sprint types and how to optimize their brains. And the things that people have gotten done in those 20 minutes have been just insane. There was this one lady who was starting a consulting company. She named the consulting company, bought the URL, sketched out her first nine emails and her first product offering in 20 minutes. This other guy, he had been stuck on writing a book for a really long period of time. He's an amazing couples therapist. He has this unique model, taught hundreds of people. But he hadn't written a book about this model and he'd been in a mastermind group with me. And it just like every time he'd say I haven't worked on it, I haven't worked on it in 20 minutes. He sketched out the first nine chapters of the book. So I think you know when you start to do it and these people, I followed up with them, they were just like slow down. School changed my life because it was just the springboard into okay, I've learned this method. It was two days of slowing down. That's a weekend. So if you actually, if we think about what's it takes take to actually help you rejuvenate, there's only a handful of things that it really takes. Decent eating, where our bodies are not full of crap and that it's fueled and that we don't feel too guilty about. When we have cheat days, we want to hydrate quite a bit and not over caffeinate ourselves. Getting enough sleep for your body, you see all sorts of different studies. Some say seven hours, some say eight hours. But looking at yourself and you probably know if you're getting too little or too much sleep. And quality sleep. Yeah, and quality sleep. I mean if you're having a bunch of screen time right before bed or you're drinking a lot to help you get to sleep or whatever it is, that doesn't help your brain bounce back nearly as well as if you start to move to kind of more natural ways of falling asleep, some level of moving your body of exercise on a regular basis. We all can take small steps to even just walk a little bit more. I started doing a one minute Plank back in February, every day. And then that turned into a two minute and then a three minute and the farthest I've pushed is four and a half minutes, which, like, I don't know if I want to do that again.

But it's like even, it's like, can I take one minute a day to do a plank? Yes, I can take one minute a day and to just find like, what is that small step in the right direction. So if you're trying to incorporate those things not from a place of, oh, I need to lose weight or ooh, I want muscle or whatever, just our bodies, if they feel good, it's going to be a lot easier to slow down and it's gonna be a lot easier for us to then jump into our workweek and decide what's our highest level of things that we wanna work on.

Yeah, I like that. There was an anecdote from Matt Mullenweg, the creator of WordPress. He talked about how his workout strategy was, I just do one push up a day. That's it. My goal is to do one push up a day. And this, I think he was talking about it on a Tim Ferriss podcast episode or something. And he said that the trick is if you just tell yourself you're gonna do one push up a day day, nine out of 10 times, you're not going to get down on the floor, just do one pushup, you're going to get down on the floor, go, well, I could do a few more. And then next thing you know, you get to a point where you're doing 100 push ups a day, but you let yourself off the hook and only do one push up a day. So if it's a Sunday, you're on the move, you got a lot of things going on, get your one push up in and go. But most days you're going to do a heck of a lot more. And so just like that, little start momentum is what you need there.

And I would imagine psychologically too, that's a consistency thing. Now you're proving it to yourself that you can do that even on a shitty day. A day you're not feeling great, your body's feeling off or whatever. It's kind of like with work, like, hey, the day is still going to show up the 24 hours. You might have it engineered differently during your week, but yeah, at least building some consistency of the key things like that would probably be huge.

Yeah, I want to shift back to something you were saying a little while ago about the music. You Listen to. You'll listen to different music to get into different flow states and basically a different environment based on what you want your brain to focus on. What advice do you have to people as far as the music goes? Because Joe and I, we actually had a guy named Angelo Sisco on the call recently, and it was actually one of the bigger topics we talked about is the music you listen to. He was talking about it from a masculine, feminine energy. Certain music has more of a masculine energy that you want to listen to this kind of music. If you're going to go into a sales call or if you're going to go play a sport, you need to get pumped, pumped up. You want something with more of like a masculine energy. And if you need to like, calm down or you're gonna go talk to your. Your mother or your wife or your kids or something, you might want to listen to something that's a little bit more feminine, a little more calming. And so I'm curious if you have any sort of more specifics or details around the kind of music you listen to to. To generate different types of states.

Yeah, so for me, when I'm writing, I don't typically like anything with words in it, and there's definitely, definitely a preference side to that of certain types of music. Feels a little too meditative when I'm writing. And I do want to have a little bit of an amped upness, but not full on, like electronic dance music, you know. And so I found a playlist I really like. I think it's called Writing for Focus or Music for Writing in Focus or something like that and stuff like that. It's just a public one. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. I think, you know, there's times when I want to get amped up and some Rage against the Machine and Beastie Boys or, you know, at least every day there's times that I'm rocking out to that for sure. Fat Boy Slim. But then I also have a playlist I made just for myself of songs that make me feel better. And it's just, you know, I may hear a song on Cirrus satellite radio and just throw that onto there. And then songs will come and go from that list. My daughters have a playlist where they both have to vote to add a song to the list. And I think only one of them has to vote to take it off. And so they've got their own little fun playlist. I think music's such a personal thing that the big thing is like, what do you want when you're working well, you want to be able to feel like you have some energy. So you want some music that, for you personally gives you energy. You probably don't want too much music that you're going to start singing along to because you're going to accidentally start typing lyrics instead of typing a blog post or whatever. But for me, I think it can set the mood, it can set the tone. If I'm listening to Rage against the Machine, my girls know that I'm, like, either kind of amped up or, like.

Get out of his way. He's about to get out of your way.

Dad's moshing in the living room.

Another topic that we talked about, I think, on one of our last calls.

I can't remember if we talked about it on your podcast or it was something we talked about on our podcast, but the concept of microdosing, is that something that you still do? Is that something that you're still a proponent of? I'm curious if you talked about it in the book at all, too.

Yeah, I didn't talk about it as much in the book. I did talk a little bit about just some of the research around. You know, for me, I wasn't seeing the results that I had expected, so I stopped. I'm still. I still think that it's great for a lot of people. It's something that. I think that I've seen so many personal friends get off of depression medication and have more creativity. But it's for some, something for me that it just. I didn't feel a difference between. I tried it for a bit and then just felt like, you know, it's not really doing a whole lot. So I think it's. I hope that we continue to have support around research to actually look at things that aren't just pharmaceutically made. I mean, these are substances that for thousands of years have helped humankind have breakthroughs in a lot of ways, have changes in their thoughts in a lot of ways. Whether it's microdosing or macrodosing, in kind of guided psychedelic experiences. All those things, I think, have had their place in society for thousands of years. And so we're one of the first societies not to do that in. In kind of a respectful way towards those medicines.

Yeah, I think the key thing is respectful and having a place for it. Yeah. An intention of where you're gonna use it as a tool. And to that point. Cause I was. That's perfect. I wanna ask about other tools, maybe like physical tools to keep focused and really be happy with the days that you create for yourself, mainly in work, but also outside. Do you have any headphone type things? Is there any like tools that you just couldn't live without? Our products, you know, maybe software as well that we could share out here.

Yeah, you know, I mean, I love my Bose noise canceling headphones. I mean they're just like, I'm in my own world. I would say Sam Harris's his meditation Waking Up. That's totally worth the hundred bucks or whatever a year you pay for that app. Every single day he has a 10 minute meditation that is just insane. And then he has a whole library of teachings which, similar to the plank thing, just 10 minutes of meditation a day can just help you realize when crap hits the fan that I am not the crap that's hitting the fan. It's not a personal reflection of me. And then I respond better to the crap hitting the fan. I respond better and I don't make things worse on myself. And so I would say that's a tool. Honestly. The I Ching for me personally has been something to learn more about daoism. That's been the last six months or so. I've really dug into daoism as a philosophy. The idea of going with the flow, that things are naturally unfolding, that if you're pushing too hard, that it's probably not right, while also realizing we all have goals, we all have ways that we do things. You don't just sit around and wait for things to manifest and come to you. Like, you know, it's one thing to have a vision board and say I want to work on that. It's another thing to put in the time to make those things happen. But the I Ching, for me, that's just been. And Lao Tzu's work has been so helpful. Other tools, I mean, I tend to be pretty simple in how I approach things. I mean, I think even when someone says, you know, what automations do you use? We're constantly evaluating that. We're switching our email service provider right now. We're switching up, you know, our membership community into kind of a different level. But I could say, here's what we use. But you know, for someone else, it may not fit them. I think it's more important to say, you know, what's causing us stress? What's kind of bulking things up? What are we hearing from our audience and how do we change that even just to reach into our membership community and say, hey, this is what we're looking at as an alternative to our Facebook Group. Does anyone want to help? Just look at these platforms because you're going to be a part of them. We had 15 people that helped us evaluate new systems that we didn't pay them a dime. They just wanted to help the community be better. And so I think just engaging your community is one of the best tools you can do, because they're going to tell you what they love.

Yeah. It's funny because we asked that same question of our group just last week, and we got a lot of feedback, so that's pretty rad.

Yeah.

Yeah, man. Was there anything else you wanted to touch on?

Well, there was, but it's sort of a diversion from some of the other stuff we've been talking about, which is more about the publishing process of the book. I'm kind of curious about how you got hooked up with HarperCollins. Did you, you know, do you have one of those stories where you pitched it to 100 people and they were the last one to take it? Or, you know, like, how did that all unfold for you?

Man, I have learned so much from this whole process. So every year I'll ask myself, and this is kind of from the book, the one thing, like, what's the one thing that if I achieve that, it would just level me up in an insane way. So, you know, for one year, it was, if I had, you know, consulting clients that were twice my typical rate, that would be a game changer. Then it was mastermind groups, and it was the membership community. So, you know, if I had a membership community of 200 people paying at least 100 bucks a month, like, that's automated income. So every year I kind of say, well, what's that next big thing? And so it would have been in late 2017, going into 2018, said to myself, you know what I really want to. Is that right? No. The next year, if I had a traditionally published book, that would open different doors. And there's a lot of debate on traditional versus self publishing, and that's a whole different discussion. But I knew I wanted traditional. And so every single author that I interviewed on the podcast, I said to them, I'm in the process of putting together a book proposal, and I'm shopping for a new book agent. Would you introduce me to your agent? And by new agent, I meant I don't have one. I didn't. I just. I'm looking for a new one, but I didn't have one. And I thought. I thought if by. You know, and this would have been like, January of. That would have been 19, January of 19. I was like, if I can get one by the summer, that'd be great. And within like a month, I had five different agents that I had had talks with. And the guy Greg that up working with, he's down in Austin. And I was going down there for a front row dad's retreat. So we met up in person to kind of vet each other and it was awesome. He was really, really well connected. So then I gave him the proposal that I had and he said we should probably work with a writing coach. I was like, oh, I thought I was super awesome, but I'm not. So then he connected me with Nancy. And so for a good year from that like April to the next March, we worked on just my book proposal. And so those that don't know you need to have usually about a 20 page book proposal that outline chapter by chapter pretty in depth what you're gonna cover, what are the comp titles? So if your book was on the shelf, what would be on the right and left side of this book? What's kind of that general category? What's your audience? Because ultimately publishers are buying your audience. And so what's your podcasting audience? Who's your inner circle that will be just like super fans? Who's your outer circle that'll buy a book or two? Who are other people you're connected to to be on their podcasts? So you're kind of making a case that you have an audience to sell to and that's what the whole proposal looks at. And then your agent, and it's so much easier if you have an agent. Then your agent shops it around and usually they take two to four weeks of shopping this thing around and trying to get as many interviews as possible. So then if you get an interview, that means that I'm interviewing them as much as they're interviewing me, that they probably want the book. And so like McGraw Hill and a few other publishers did meetings with me, they made offers. But then for me, HarperCollins was my top. That was my Harvard Business School, like stretch school. And I just knew because I mean, they published JLD recently. My friend Ali Casaza has a book coming out. My other friend Angie Morgan. It's so funny because we all got book contracts with HarperCollins at the same time and didn't even coordinate that. So there's this whole posse of authors through it. And then the process, once you sign the contract, usually they pay you a third of the money when you sign a third of it when you turn in the book and a third of it when the book launch launches. I the whole time had the mindset of all that money I'm putting back into marketing because I already have my income. And so why keep that money? Someone else can just pay for the marketing of Joe Sanhak's book. So I put all that money into a separate bank account, kept track of who I'm spending on PR company, all of that. And so when you have that level of money that they've given you, you can hire these huge PR companies. And I mean, that's how. Not with Pat Flynn or jld. That was my own kind of trying to connect with them. But you know, to get on Bloomberg News to, you know, Forbes is doing a Q and A with me. Harvard Business Review just accepted one of my articles. And so, I mean, all these things that are going to come out around pub date that are even one of those would have been a game changer for Joe Sanock. And so to have the capital to have a PR company actually do all that work for me. And then I also hired Interview Valet to get me on a bunch of podcasts and you know, I'm sponsoring part of podcast movement and hosting a meetup with John Lee Dumas and like trying to just get out there as much as possible and then, I mean, we'll see where it goes. I mean, that's the whole kind of daoist thing of I can try as hard as I want. I can say I'm doing the right things. And it may not be a New York Times bestseller like I want it to be, but I know I'm putting in the work to at least position myself in the best way possible.

This is going to do wonders for your brand, man. Do you have anything on the roadmap in the future after the book that you'd like to share or things in mind that you're excited about?

You know, I mean, we created Joe Sanock.com as sort of like a. A me centric website that's a little different from practice. The practice so, you know, keynotes writing more books. I mean, a lot of people will write a book and say that was the worst thing ever. I'm never doing that again. My experience was the complete opposite. I absolutely loved it. I loved going down the rabbit holes of like, I read this CIA paper for a whole afternoon one day and it was like recently declassified. Like, is there anything here? Because this is just cool.

For me. There was some of it made it in the book. I mean, some crazy stuff that the CIA was doing from a research perspective that has actually informed society in a really interesting way. But being able to just go down those rabbit holes and you know, like the Haymarket bombing in 1886, it was this big protest about the work schedule of people in the factories. And it was these three days of protests in early May. And I just was going down this rabbit hole and it became like a central story about how it's dangerous to push back on schedules in society. But then 30 years later, from that Haymarket bombing, we see that that's when Henry Ford decided to release his 40 hour workweek. It made a difference. And these people were rising up and saying these conditions aren't okay. And they changed society for us. And Henry Ford did appropriately at that time, but we've outgrown that model. And so we're now that generation that we can push back and say the four day work, work week is the most we should be working. I mean, when you look at the Iceland study that just came out, when you look at Spain and Denmark and New Zealand who are all testing out four day work weeks, Microsoft, Japan did, Nissan brought me in to speak with them about it. I mean, it is changing. And I think in our generation we'll genuinely see a shift to the four day work week, be more the standard. But like right now we're in the messy middle and it's one of those things that it's going to shake itself out, but we get to help decide how it shakes out. Just like the Babylonian made up the seven day week, like we get to make this up.

Yep.

We got completely different technology and ways that we work. And I mean, the pandemic, you know, coronavirus stuff has obviously changed it and maybe accelerated this whole thing.

But I was gonna say the timing probably couldn't be better. Just like kind of coming out of a pandemic where everybody just kind of got in the habit of, oh, I can have a career and be home with my family at the same time. Right. Like there is this sort of global realization that happened over the last year and a half.

We're all way too much time and going to places that we don't want to be.

I mean, if you just even think about how the industrialists thought of people, they thought about people as parts of a machine. Like how many of us, when we hire staff, think of people as parts of a machine? No, we never think that way. We, we see them as individuals that are evolving and changing and might want to level up in our company. Like, it's more of an organism, an evolutionary model than this industrialist model. And so we have a couple of remnants that the industrial that are left over like the 40 hour workweek. The way we do schooling is very conveyor belt. There's a lot of things that are left over but for the most part we're like 80% of the way there of saying goodbye to the industrialists. Now we just have to figure out how do we do this and how do we make the case for it and show if you kill 20% of the week, you're not going to kill 20% of your profits. If anything, the research is emerging saying people are more productive, they're doing better work, they're saving more money for, for the company.

Yeah, man. More motivation. I know it has been for us. You know, it's kind of like a fresh day every day because we choose to engineer it this way. And I could see that happening a lot. I see on Reddit actually where you know, you'll see a bunch of news coming out, especially in the tech space. You know, you have like the coders and stuff like that, you know and they're typically would go into the office at this certain time and they're like, but I like working at the times my brain's awake and you know, flowing and things like that and everyone's different. Obviously the roles are different, different as well. So it's, it's really cool to see the shake up from the industrial period, you know, when that's, that's not the cookie cutter way for everyone. For sure. Yeah.

So no for sure.

Well, very cool. No, this is, this has been an awesome interview. Hoping to probably have you back again when your next book is about to come out, if not sooner.

So Thursday is the new Friday. How to work fewer hours and make more money and spend time doing what you want. Want. I love it, man. So goes live again. It's October.

October 5th. Yeah, but you can pre order right now. As soon as. I mean where's the best time this recording? I mean wherever you get your book. So if that's Amazon, Barnes and Noble, wherever it's all the major spots. So your local bookstore, go in there and say hey, I want five copies.

Or ten or a hundred while they're waiting for the book to come out. Any other places you'd want them to check out or you know, any social media or website you want them to go pay attention. Attention to?

Yeah.

So we have lots of blogs coming out about the four day work week and all sorts of things over atJoe Sanock dot com. That's where we have all of our updates on Instagram. I don't want to have two separate Instagrams. So it's still just practice of the practice over there. But on Twitter, I'm Joe Sanock. I'm active on clubhouse, so. Fine, man. Clubhouse, too. Nice.

I love that you're still rocking the clubhouse. Most people have fallen off, but you're doing a good thing there. I know.

Yeah, it's fun.

All right, brother, thank you for your time.

Oh, thank you so much.

See ya. That was a fun conversation. That was Sanok.

Yeah. We seem to be having a lot of similar themed conversations lately.

Yeah, actually, you're right. I was thinking that when we were chatting with him, I was like, we've had two or three, maybe more recently.

Yeah, well, we just had. We had Joe, and before Joe, we had Angelo, and before. Actually, I forgot the order. I think actually before Joe was Elliot. Right. And then both before Elliot was Angelo.

Yeah, right.

And all of them have kind of been in this place about, like, let's, like, just chill out and get your mind straight and, you know, let's get your mind straight.

Yeah. And then have your priorities in order, you know, and have a system around it.

I would say it's actually probably more similar to the conversations we've been having without guests about, like, you know, having more fun and coming to the office and taking Wednesdays off. And a lot of those conversations had better systematizing what we're doing. Like, all of those are the conversations we've been having on our no guest episode. So it's kind of like you can sort of feel this consolidation of a theme among the Hustle and Flowchart brand going on here.

Hustle and Flowcharters, whatever name we dub y'. All. Yeah, no, it's true. And I think it's been a. I mean, there must be a reason, Matt, that we're hearing all of this and we're talking about this. I mean, right after, let's be honest, honest here, we didn't record this intro or outro right after hitting stop with Joe. We just spent the last hour, whatever it was, you and I, in our office here, pacing back and forth, or at least I was, and chatting about from this. This podcast, you know, this. This episode and what we want to do with our brand and how we want to kind of getting a lot of clarity about what we stand for as well. Like, I feel like there's a lot of stripping of. Of the baggage or the things that we thought were important in our business, in life, because we're doing a lot of, you know, we're working with Angelo at Alpha Hippie. So, you know, we're kind of like, deep diving on ourselves individually. And then Matt and I just always obviously chat about what our findings are. So then there's this blended thing, and then obviously you got the business side, which, you know, we chat with folks like Joe here on the podcast, we chat with people like Angela as well and Elliot Rowe, and all that stuff can translate into a really productive and smart way you approach work. Yeah.

I mean, at the end of the day, what this podcast really is, is a sort of manifestation of our interest. It's like, this is the stuff that we're talking about. This is the stuff we're thinking about. For the longest time, I think we had this perception in our business that the sort of mechanisms, the tactics, the way we make money, the widgets, the cogs, all that kind of stuff was what was really, really important. But, like, as we've kind of traveled down this path and, you know, we both started to grow our families and we both started to reprioritize what was, like, more important with. For us and where we wanted to be spending our time, we started to realize that it is less about tactics. It is less about, like, business strategies and putting in the hours and hustling.

And, you know, maybe hustle and sprints.

Yeah, hustle and sprints, maybe. But we've had this sort of, like, evolution of ourselves, of going, what's really important is, like, figuring out how to do the stuff we really want to do and let the business facilitate that. Not like, let's create a life where our business is the main thing, and when we get some free time, we go do cool shit with our family. Like, that's not what we're trying to create. What we're trying to create is, like, we want to have fun experiences and enjoy the journey and do all the fun stuff more often than we're doing the work. So let's set up the work to facilitate the fun stuff, not the other way around.

Totally. Yeah. And it's not when I have time, it's like, no, you're creating your own time.

Yeah.

You know, like, I started rereading the Big Leap recently, and there's. And I remember this is like, there's the what, the Newton way of time. And then you have the Einstein, Einsteinian or whatever. Estonian. I don't know, Einstein's way of looking at time. And essentially, like, in, you know, then we talked About Parkinson's Law, about, like, you know, whatever the amount you allot for for that task is basically what it's going to take you. And Newton's law is kind of. Or Newton time, I believe it's kind of more like that. Like, it's more placed on like, okay, well, I have this amount of hours. So this is what I'm going to do with this amount of hours. And it's like, well, the Einstein time is more like, okay, I have this action. Well, let's like, how fast can I get it done? Or what's the amount of time I need to get this thing done?

Yeah.

And, you know, it's kind of flipping it to how we've seen our actions we take in our business. Business and where we choose to schedule stuff fun over the other stuff first.

Yeah, no, it's true. And we did a podcast. I mean, by the time this one goes live, it was several weeks ago now, but it was basically like, here's the things we would have told our younger selves. And what I really found interesting about that podcast, you can go back and listen to it to get all the context, but was most of the stuff we would go back and tell our younger selves has nothing to do with. With how to grow the business or what tactics we'd use or how to make more money. Almost all of the stuff that you and I were riffing off of, like, here's the advice I'd go back and give myself. It was all about figuring out how to find more time, systematize more, you know, like, stop stressing about business as much, enjoy the journey more. It was all that kind of stuff.

Show up better. Yeah. With a clear mind.

Right. And so you and I, back when we recorded that episode, we decided, like, the focus of the podcast, where we're gonna take the direction of this show is we're making this podcast for our younger selves. And now we're even thinking of it in the context of we both have kids, so we're even making content that we want our kids to go back and consume and learn the lessons that were the biggest lessons for us. And because we've decided, like, let's make this show that. Let's make this show like, these are the things we wish we knew going back. Right. Also, we're learning a lot of new stuff along the way of, like, better ways of thinking and reframes going forward. But that's kind of the flow. And I feel like now the guests are sort of tapping into that energy as well. Like, energetically getting real woo woo here, but energetically, the people that are coming to us to be on our show seem to kind of fit that mold. They seem to fit that sort of way of thinking that we've adopted over the last six months or so.

Yeah. Well, I think you brought it up to me. Me is I don't know what in reference to or like, who it was, but, you know, like, your purpose is something internal. It's not external.

It was Ryan Berman. Yeah.

Yeah, Ryan. So we had him on the podcast and then we've. Obviously Mr. Purpose himself, Angelo Sisko, has his whole way of breaking down what your purpose is. I don't think we really covered that. That's something he does in his training. So of like, where you can really tap into your, I guess, your internal North Star, you know, like what. What is that thing where you can get excited when you go to work or even play with your kids and family? Like, there's another. It should all be in that inner fire, something inside. And for the longest time or a long time, you and I were like, what's the North Star of our company? You know? And this goes way back. Like, this goes probably eight years back.

Yeah.

You know, we didn't start off by thinking this. We're just like, let's make some money. I want freedom. I don't want to go to that fricking office anymore.

Yeah, that's how it started.

Yeah. Pretty much like, hell no. But this. Yeah. With finding our purpose and like, really, you and I, like, the last, I'd say four months, have been deep diving into this together more so done our individual stuff for a while, but it's now showing up in, like, this podcast and where we want to take this brand and some other things that we might put on our roadmap in terms of new content modalities we put out into the world.

Yeah. And there's.

Those are just hints for something that was discussed in this episode.

Yeah, there was a hint. The biggest hint was something we talked about in this episode that had to do with content.

Yes.

Putting that content into the world.

That thing.

Yeah.

But it's really cool because that's almost like a container, as is this podcast, of our purpose into the world. And with this clarity of, hey, yeah, we just want to get some really cool insights and how to live way cooler or way happier lives and make a lot more money, but just enjoy the time throughout the whole thing.

Yeah, Well, I mean, like, how many people do we know that are working in a sort of normal job, that they always seem to just be kind of miserable, like, not content about their life. Like, I was telling a story about how one day I was kind of out and about more than normal, right? And it was a Friday. And like, every building I walked into, people were going, happy Friday. Happy Friday. And I'm like, yes, this is the.

Last time time Matt saw sunlight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This was about four months ago, right?

Something like that. Yeah, but everybody's going to Happy Friday. And, like, I was like, saying Happy Friday back to them, but, like, I hadn't heard that term Happy Friday in, like, probably over a year. And I was just thinking to myself, man, like, all of these people that are saying Happy Friday to me, like, they're living for the weekend. They're sitting around going, yes, it's Friday.

I finally get to live, you know?

And like, that day, for whatever reason sticks out in my mind of. Of like, I really love what we created because, like, I'm not sitting around waiting for Friday. Like, on Mondays, I'm like, hell yeah. I get to go to the office and do this today on, you know, Thursday's the day we typically record podcast episodes. I'm like, hell yeah. I get to go talk to these people today. The days we're not recording, I'm like, hell yeah. I'm going to the office and Joe's gonna be there. We're gonna get some fricking California burritos and we're gonna brainstorm the business. And like, hell yeah.

That's on the agenda today, my friends.

That's the.

The rest of our day, actually.

But like, for me, every day kind of feels like a hell yeah. Saturdays roll around, I'm like, hell yeah. I'm watching movies with the family, or we're going to the beach or whatever. Like, every day's kind of become a hell yeah.

That's cool.

And I feel like when I was out and about and everybody was like, happy Friday.

Yeah, the weekend.

I'm like, that's their hell yeah. But is it really?

Yeah, but why can't every day be.

A hell yeah, right?

And I feel like that has been the direction. We've shifted a lot of our topics. And, you know, Joe's perfect example of, like, totally, you know, and he's somebody that we talk to. We've known him for, I don't know, four or five years now some. And like, he's somebody that, if we were to let it go, this would have been a four hour episode. Cause, like, we could just go forever with him.

Well, he even said he's like, I love to talk. Yeah. The reason why the Boy has nearly 600 podcast episodes, at least under one show. Yeah.

I mean, he's a piece of why we think this way.

Right.

Just like conversations in the past with him are a piece of why we think the way we think.

Well, there's just interest outside of just business. And I think that's the best thing is you have. I mean, Molly Mahoney. We recently had her as an expert for Pod Hacker, our, you know, our program tactical stuff over there. And she was talking about that, like, you gotta have. It's the social triangle, I think, is what she was calling it. Right. Yeah. Part of that is like, you gotta have these other things outside of business or whatever. The main focus should be. Like, when we met her, we were talking about families and kids and music and all this other crazy. And ever since then, now she's like, oh, you guys are like my brothers. And it's like, it's true. It's really cool. But, yeah, you got to have that. That's how, like, Joe Sinock is. Yeah. Those are good relationships. And people are like, okay, yeah, yeah.

Well, hopefully people listening enjoy this sort of direction we're going in. We are still going to have some tactical episodes from time to time. We have a lot of tactician friends that we like to showcase, so they will be on from time to time. But.

Well, you know what?

That.

That comes back to us, though, and we talked about this earlier is like us knowing our bigger purpose here. And it was very tactical before, because I think that was the phase that we were mainly living in, each of us in our own skill sets, but now it's shifted. It's still. We do a lot of tactics stuff and we nerd out on that, but we definitely lean way more to the bigger picture. How this strategy fits and how it's designed and how other people are playing it. It, too. Yeah. Not just the two of us or individually. So, like, us with our questioning with our guests and the people we bring on. That's on us.

Yeah, yeah.

Because there's, you know, anyone who has really smart tactics doing cool shit is they got something dialed in upstairs, you know, and systems and doing it differently.

Yeah, yeah. And also feel like this is a bigger topic and we'll probably get into it in one of our Tuesday episodes. But, you know, I also feel. Feel like when it comes to tactics, we kind of found a better container for tactics. So we've got Hustle and Flowchart, which is this YouTube channel and the podcast audio and the notes and that whole ecosystem. Right? And then we've got Pod Hacker as well. And Podhacker to me feels like a better container to teach tactics. Right. Because when we teach tactics on the podcast, we're like, here's YouTube ad strategies. Well, YouTube ad strategies for who? Are we talking to e commerce brands? Are we talking to info marketers? Are we talking to consultants? Are we talking to agencies? Right? Like all of those different business types have different tactics for like YouTube ads or Facebook ads or SEO or whatever. They're all going to be kind of slightly different tactics. So we have to speak in real generalities when we bring those type of people on Hustle and Flowchart. So you never really get into like, here's what this specific listener should have right now when you go look over on Podhacker. We know we're speaking to people with podcasts that are looking to grow their podcast. And we also know that probably 90% plus of those people are interview style podcasts. Right? So like Pod Hacker, we have this real clear avatar of like they are, you know, somebody who is trying to grow a interview podcast. Right. So now we can bring tacticians, interview them and say, all right, tactician, what is this tactic for podcasters? How do I use YouTube ads to grow my podcast? How do I use Facebook ads to grow my podcast? How do I use SEO to grow my podcast? Now it's a very specific person that we're speaking to with the tactical elements, Hustle and Flowchart. It's like we're speaking to such a broad audience. We have agency owners, SaaS, owners, info products, physical store owners, lawyers, doctors. Like, it's a pretty broad audience. So we have to kind of find those topics that really appeal to that broader audience audience, which in my mind is like, let's talk about how we're just enjoying the hell out of business all the time.

Yeah. And that appeals to any entrepreneur, anyone who has control of their own time. Yeah. And that's. I love it. Yeah. It's a perfect place for tactics to live as Pod Hacker. And a lot of our, you know, there's always strategy, but then it gets into the tactics that are applicable to podcasters and like other people that want to do just really cool stuff.

And my brain is also wired to want to hear the tactics. If I hear somebody's got like this crazy strategy where they're tying Facebook ads to Twitter, to their.

I don't know, Hulu account to growth ads, their podcast, I'm Gonna be like, I need to know more about that now.

Hulu is the piece. I'm wondering.

Secret Sauce.

That's the secret sauce.

If we had somebody on the podcast that was growing their podcast through Hulu, you'd be want to know more.

It's true. Yeah. Speaking of that, we got to figure out how to get our podcast on scribd. This is just a note for later on us, but I don't know how to do that. But I've been using scribed a little bit and I've noticed there's a lot of podcasts and the interface is pretty cool. It's very easy to find people on there. So yeah, we got to get on there.

Side note, we could look that up. We should go ahead and wrap this up.

Well, lastly, we will. Of course we will. We're wrapping this puppy up. So Pod Hacker, though, just because we've been mentioning it, go check out Pod Hacker News. It's a weekly newsletter that we send out in the emails and we basically compile our thoughts around what we think are the best, newest news or maybe strategies around podcasting and growth, hacking and monetization. And it's free. Every Monday they get sent out. So if you go to podhacker.com news that's free. Sign up. And we give away cool prizes too. If you want to share it around to your other podcasting buddies, that'd be really rad. We'll hook you up. Yep.

Go join the Facebook group over@flowchartgroup.com if you go join flowchartgroup.com the group within the next two weeks, you can get the action guide for free to this episode. So it's going to be all of the notes and all of our takeaways from this episode into a neat, concise action guide for you. You can get that by joining our group@flowchartgroup.com flowchartgroup.com yeah.

Yeah. And one last shout out here. We're going to leave it. Yeah, we're going to read a little review. It could be you. But yeah, shout out to our friends as the website's not loading now. Whoops. Easywebinar.com I think that's my problem, not theirs. But yeah, Easy Webinar are lovely sponsors of our podcast. I just can't pull up the points I wanted to read now on the website. So we're going to ad lib. Yes, an ad.

Well, we normally ad lib our ads anyway, so good at it.

Yeah.

Easywebinar.com hustle they're hooking you up with a discount, so make sure you remember that URL. But easy webinar. It does a lot of good stuff. With webinars.

They do. Basically it is. It's not basically it is your all in one solution for everything. Webinars, if you are starting from scratch and don't know where to go, they got you covered. They got all the tech in there, the landing pages, all the mechanisms to build out the automations and all that webinar jazz. They're taking care of you if you're.

Yeah, when you say jazz, you have to do jazz.

Hands, fingers.

Where's my kazoo? I have it in my backpack.

We'll save it for the next Easy Webinar promotion.

There you go. You'll wait for that next one. This is why Casey gives us the big bucks for this to play kazoo.

No microphones.

He's like, this is driving away people from my business. Please stop. But yes. So beginner, intermediate, advanced. They got you covered. Go ahead.

So if you've ever clicked on a Facebook ad and then you see a webinar and the webinar's like, hey, we're doing this webinar. When's the best time for you? Do you want to do it on Wednesday at 2pm or Thursday at 4pm and it gives you the options to view the webinar when it's most convenient to you. That's what Easy Webinar does.

It does. It's so slick.

Yeah, it's slick. So if you ever wonder how to do that, EasyWebinar.com is the tool for you. EasyWebinar.com hustle. You can get it at EasyWebinar.com, but if you go to EasyWebinar.com hustLe, you get it cheap.

You get a fat discount because Casey and his crew is hooking you up for listening to us ramble along.

Thank you for listening to us ramble. Let's read a review.

Because some people like us rambling.

Yeah. Now we're going to hear from you.

All right. Why is is this so good? I don't know, Nick. Carly posted five stars.

Five stars.

That is the requirement. But, you know, sometimes we let an occasional four star slip through. But the comment better be dang good. It better be starting with Joe and Matt.

And I also want to know in that comment why we lost one star. So don't put four stars. This is an amazing podcast. I love it. I want to know why I lost the one star.

Luckily, we don't Have. Have many of those, but. Yeah, of those. Like, huh? Yeah, like, that makes no sense. It's like the Amazon reviews. It's like, wait, hold on. I'm looking for the criticism. Like, I'm looking to buy this product or listen to this podcast. What is the critique here?

There's no damn critique.

But it's four stars. Why? Yeah, you're just a critical person.

And if it's just because you don't like our beards, well, then don't watch the YouTube version.

This is why we record an audio only, too. We have faces for podcasts, I guess, in your eyes. All right, so, Nick, Nika. Maybe it's Nika. Carly said asked, why is this so good with an exclamation point as well?

Is it rhetorical, or does she want an answer?

Let's see what her comment says first. And it says, I love Matt and Joe. The way they create and share their genius is always right on time.

Oh, thank you.

Right on time. I like it. I would agree with that.

I agree that we're good and it's always right on time. We're living in the flow, man.

Yeah.

We're on our journey.

Well, that's the thing.

It's on your journey, too. You're here for a reason. Remember that episode?

Every episode that we record is right on time for us. I know that for a fact.

I'm sure it translates to you listening as well. Yeah, no doubt. I love it. Yeah, it is.

Got another one.

All right, I got one more, and then we're gonna call it. All right. Yeah. So this one is from Trinsic, and it says, subscribe, binge, take notes. Take notes, Action.

Or let us take the notes for you.

Yeah, @flowchart group.com you can get it for free. All right. Five stars. Of course, it was a requirement. We signed this with blood. Made sure that you would never, ever. Or her. You know. Come on. Yeah, we know the rules.

We get it.

So the podcast is one of, if not the only show capable of bringing such high value across a variety of different business topics on a consistent, consistent basis. Clockwork, Man. Or like Clockwork, their conversations with the experts they bring on are more like casual master classes. That's right. Jazz hands or sprinkle effects. Glitter on a topic. Get your Evernote app ready when you hit play on this. Oh, thank you. But, you know, again, flowchartgroup.com we got you covered. Don't worry about it. Evernote's cool. But why work harder?

Come on. I mean, there might be Some stuff that you want to take your own notes on for your. Your own reference?

I guess so. Yeah. But sue does a damn dandy, dandy job.

Damn dandy job.

Damn dandy job. All right. She does a hell of a job, Sue. Thank you, Intrinsic. Thank you, too. And I'm happy you stayed good to your oath of five stars only. We were watching you. We're watching you. All right, Matt, what else? Let's get out of here. I want a Cali burrito like yesterday.

Yeah. Thanks for listening, and if you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend, and please leave us a review. We will probably read your review on the episode. Yeah, I will crack my voice while reading your review. Next time we read reviews just for fun. So leave us a review and we'll read it on the show, because that's what we do until we start getting, like, a million reviews a day. Then it might be harder, but if.

We'Re getting ready, it's reading really fast.

A couple reviews a day. We'll keep reading them because we love.

You guys, because that's what we do.

Thank you.

Peace, love, and applesauce.

Bye. Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice, simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to, too, and give us your email address, and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

Go get it, Wiki Wiki. We love you.