Joey Gilkey - Sell More With These Simple Systems

To me, sales is a transaction between two people or two businesses based on trust. And trust is I trust that if I solve a big problem for you, that you're going to pay me. And you trust that if I pay you, you're going to solve a big problem for me. That's it. And so if you can. If you can cultivate a relationship between two people, because at the end of the day, businesses do business with businesses, but the. But really, it's humans do business with humans.

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys Mount Wolf and Joe Fear.

Welcome back. Welcome to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast.

Yes.

I'm your host, Matt Wolf.

I am Joseph Fear.

Robin to my Batman.

No, Robin. Don't ever get out of line like that. I am your Batman.

So, everyone.

You'Re Robin.

Yeah, but in the comic books, there was actually multiple Batmans in various phases.

Yeah, we could do that. That's cool. Yeah. Kind of switch. Switch the mask.

Or like, you know that Spider man meme that always goes around where it's like two pictures of Spider man and they're both pointing at each other, like, confused.

You're like, wait, I'm spider. Wait.

Huh?

Yeah, that's.

Who's doing.

Should I go. Should I go away for a little bit?

Take a nap?

Go fight crime. Have fun? Yeah.

Anyway, yeah, we're back.

That's kind of, I guess, our deal. Yeah, we're back. And this on either a Tuesday or a Thursday.

I have no idea what day it is today.

Well. And if it's your first time on the show, thank you. Thank you for listening. And I guess welcome for the first time, not welcome back.

That's true.

Appreciate you here.

If this is the first episode you're listening to. Welcome to the show.

Well, you know what? If it's your first time or if it's your 200th time, we appreciate you nonetheless. Put your seatbelt on. If you're driving, you should already have one on. I hope it's the law, because this is going to be a crazy show. No, but seriously, this is like a freaking masterclass of just, you know, thing after thing after thing that you can swipe and deploy in some way in your business. We're having. We had Joey Gilkey on the show. We just finished recording. We're doing this intro now, obviously. And, like, we have, like, two. If we had more pages in front of us, we would have had those filled, too. But we have front and back pages of notes of just Joey's process, of.

How he's just selling mega contracts to all sorts of industries. I mean, he works specifically with a lot of agencies, but I mean, we've already talked about it.

Well, he's open agencies anywhere else, essentially. High five figures, six figures, and even seven figure contracts as agencies. Right. So we're talking like real high ticket sales.

I wish we knew this shit back then.

And he's got like, systems and processes and playbooks for like everything in the business. And luckily on this call today, he broke down like most of the. I don't know. I mean, I don't know, but he broke down a crap ton of these systems and processes and playbooks and workflows and things that he's doing in his business to make this, these sales.

At one point, there's gotta be like eight or nine. He broke down like different models that he uses as core principles in his business that you can swipe as well.

Yeah, no, it's, it's. It's really, really, really good stuff. You're going to learn how to be better at sales, better at ret retention and retaining customers, better at prospecting, better at all of the above for your business, no matter what model you're in. This is applicable. So this is a good episode. You're gonna dig it. In fact, so when Joe and I, when we get on these episodes, we always have like a printout with like, sort of notes about the guests. So we kind of know where to take the conversation and know what we're gonna talk about. And then we always kind of like scribble our own notes on it during the conversation of like, ooh, that's a good idea. I wanna remember that. And at one point I just sort of ran out of paper.

Right.

I was just kind of like, all right, well, I don't.

That's my problem too.

I don't have any more room on my paper to take more notes. And then I remembered, wait a second, somebody's taking notes on this episode for us.

Aha. I like your tie in there, Matthew.

But it's true.

Yeah, no, it is totally true. I was actually. I mean, this is no BS, man, but like, throughout this interview, 100% I had that same thing. We do share kind of a brain in a weird way. But yeah, I was just like, man, I can't wait to read the notes. This is not a sales thing. Like, literally, we rely on our.

No, this was all about sales.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Don't Confuse people.

It is a sales thing. This isn't a sales pitch for our notes, even though it's because they're free.

Yeah, but if you go to hustleandflowchart.com comp, they are free.

You want to get the dang notes. And the entire interview, I was just like, I can't wait to read these notes. And that is a complete honest truth fact. And I still have not been able to read the notes because we just finished recording. So, sue, sooner or later, get those notes done, please, for everyone's sake.

They'll be ready. They're waiting for you right now inside the members area or inside the free download area for the companions. But you got to be quick to get the notes for this episode or any episode. The notes are available for two weeks from the date the episode goes live. Go to hustleandflowchart.com comp or you can text the word comp to 38470 and we'll hook you up to the notes for this episode. But again, they do disappear after a couple of weeks.

They do.

So only the newest notes for the episodes are what's available in there for free. Then they get locked down into the Evergreen Profits members area, and then they're only available for Evergreen Profits members.

You know, it's not disappearing. Well, you should get those notes, so get those first. But hop into our group, flowchartgroup.com it's a Facebook group that has a ton of the guests that we've had on our podcast in there, but a ton of listeners as well and customers and all. It's kind of like a nice melting pot. But yeah, go there and you're going to see all the cool stuff that we're kind of like up to, the latest things people are sharing, all sorts of cool strategies and stuff. Yep. So I think that's it. Flowchart group.com, hustleandflowchart.com comp for the notes. And I think we should get into this interview. Joey, we're live. How you doing, man?

I am good, Matt and Joe, I appreciate you guys having me on.

Of course. Yeah. Now, we. We wrapped up this little traffic seminar presentation thing with Perry Marshall, and then pretty much right after that, he was like, you guys need to talk to Joey. Have him on your show.

I will. I will always take a referral from Perry.

Right? Yeah. And not even second guess him. I was like, cool. Didn't even look at you.

Accepted.

I was like, cool. That's right. That's. I guess that's the power of relationships.

It totally is, man.

Yeah.

And yeah, and then we started digging into and a little pre chat here about some of the stuff you guys are doing with your company. And I think it's gonna hit home with a lot of folks. I know I was saying I've had an agency business where it was relying on referrals and not really good salesmanship principles. And. And I know you approach it in a different way. It's not like hard nose sales, meat eater. Gotta go get this. That's right. Totally different approach. So it's going to be interesting to break that down.

Yeah, man. I think that we live in this culture where sales, the definition of sales, has become synonymous with sleazy showmanship and all that stuff. And we can get into the definition. My definition of sales, it's pretty simple when you break it down. But yeah, we live in this world where that has a negative connotation.

Yeah, sure.

Well, cool. Let's go back before we get into the sales stuff. Let's go back a little bit and get to know you. How did you get into entrepreneurship? How did you start your business? What were you doing before this? And kind of how did you get into what you're doing now?

Cool. Yeah. So I didn't grow up with that selling baseball cards and bubble gum like the Gary Vee crowd talks about. That just wasn't me necessarily. I've always had an insane competitive drive though. So I played college football, division one football, my entire life growing up with sports. So was that at sdsu? No, actually. So that's actually where my wife and I met later on. But I went and played college at A Small Division 1 Double A School called Presbyterian College. Out of South Carolina.

Yeah. Okay.

So it's a small private liberal arts actually at the time, is the smallest Division 1 football program in terms of population at the university.

Yeah. So my whole life before that though was just incredibly competitive. So traveled over the world playing baseball, football, you know, ended up, you know, doing fairly well in wrestling and track as well. And so that was kind of my competitive nature. My dad's also super competitive. Played minor league baseball. One of the best quote unquote, salespeople I've ever met. Again. And he takes a different approach to sales, which I respect a ton. I've gleaned a lot, lot from my father. Yeah, that was me. And then after college, I actually went into full time Christian ministry.

So I worked full time at a college campus doing ministry, which is actually how my wife and I met. And then after that, ended up having an incredible opportunity working for a Fortune 100 company. So I was in the sales department. Ended up climbing up pretty quickly, running the southeast division for IT Global Services, where I was able to run a 115 person sales department.

Wow.

And selling massive contracts to other Fortune 1000 companies. And that's where I really got my teeth kicked in.

So to say, was that like, throw you in the fire kind of experience?

Yeah, it was just one of those, like, I'm a young kid with a lot of potential and opportunity, I think. And maybe they were taking a flyer on me probably sooner than I was ready. But I'm super grateful for it. Right at the young age, got to have a lot of responsibility, got to be in a lot of boardrooms that I probably didn't deserve to be in.

That's how you learn, right?

That's how you learn. And so, I mean, it served me, you know, going from there, but then after that, got poached by a small business locally where I lived in Knoxville, Tennessee and still live. And, you know, I got to work in. So backstory, I've been in high ticket selling my whole life. So then I got to go work in a risk management consulting firm selling really high ticket consulting services to manufacturing companies.

After that, became the VP of sales for a digital marketing agency. And then it was about midway through my risk management consulting career where I started to fall in love with digital marketing and marrying marketing and sales, which then led me into more of an entrepreneurial path. And a couple of years later, I kind of had the gentle nudge into the entrepreneurial world and found out that I enjoyed it way more than being a W2 and had a lot more freedom and had a lot more success. And so, yeah, that was kind of my journey. My journey into doing sales for other companies and helping other companies set up sales was really by accident. Kind of fell into it a little bit, you know, was the VP of sales for an agency and then decided to leave and try to start my own agency for whatever reason. Like, just because you run sales for an agent does not mean that you can actually be a digital agency.

Right.

So I tried to do that. And what I learned was I can sell, I can get in any account I wanted. But I hated delivering. I hated the marketing side of things. And whereas I was in a mastermind with other agency owners at the time, and they loved delivering, but they hated selling. I was like, wait a second, I'm not cut. Like these guys and girls. Let me see if I can Help them. So I went in, I kind of pulled a couple friends apart and I was like, hey, let's just, Can I just try to help you guys with sales? They're like, please, please help me. So, you know, kind of backed into it by accident, took off, and here we are.

That's a really cool. I mean, yeah, like, it's because I'm just thinking, I'm like, we have the perfect storm sitting in a mastermind of a lot of creatives, it sounds like, who are Reliant. We were talking before we hit record, Reliant on referrals and their network to bring them warm or qualified leads, it sounds like. And here you are and you're like, boom, I could do that. But fulfillment, nah, that's refulent was not my thing, man.

I just, I didn't like getting caught in the weeds there. I'm like, just put me on a phone, put me on a zoom call. Let me go sell and someone else figure out how to make what I sold happen.

Yeah, no, it's actually kind of similar to us. Like, we've, we've had agencies, we've sold courses in the past. We've done a lot of that kind of stuff. But we found our sweet spot is just the marketing. Right. Like, we like driving paid ads, we like doing podcasting, we like, we like being marketers. We don't really like fulfilling on products, fulfilling on services. So we kind of designed our business in a way where all we do is marketing and then most of our revenue comes from affiliate revenue. So it's.

Yes. Beautiful.

It's pretty similar. Just you're kind of more in the sales were more in like, you know, Facebook ads and driving traffic and stuff.

Yep, it's beautiful.

I'm curious, when you say high ticket, what's your definition of high ticket? Because I feel like there's kind of a range there for people.

Yeah, I would say so. I really have two companies, right. I have Tribe Outbound and I have Joey Gilke and company. Tribe Outbound is really an account based high ticket sales agency. So we have customers who will bring us in to actually be the outsourced hunters, if you will. So we go and we go look for these massive deals. And so those, the clients that we bring on, we're not taking on new clients, but the clients that we have on our bench, those are like seven, eight figure deals. So massive deal sizes.

Yeah.

Picture a concrete company who's got a patented product for concrete and they're trying to get into a 500,000 square foot warehouse to get to lay the slab, which is really expensive if you don't context for that.

Sure.

So a company like that, but Joey Gilke and company really works with marketing agencies. So again, my people, you know, I'm a big believer in working with your people. The people that you love, you're passionate about serving, you know, you can help, they trust you. My people is really the agency owner, the creatives. And so, you know, it really depends if I'm working with a project based company, you know, a development shop or something like that, you know, 30 to $150,000 deal sizes and then the retainer services side of things. Anywhere from smaller retainers, 2,500, 3,000amonth up to, we have one client who does an average of like $45,000 a month retainers.

Nice.

And so it really just depends. But high ticket for me is anything eight figures and up or excuse me, eight figures. Wow, that'd be a lot. Five figures and up. So ten grand and up is usually the average.

Have you ever gone. Because I'm kind of curious. There's a lot of folks just have this mental barrier that they just think they can't sell after a certain price point. There's pressure on them. Maybe they feel like there's new tactics they got to learn. What would you say to that to folks that are kind of stuck at this maybe four figure level?

I would ask the question.

Do you settle in who you try to marry? You know.

And if you don't, what do you do in order to ensure that you marry that person of your dreams? And so I think business is very similar and it should be. Like we talked about sales, you know, there's such a sleazy connotation to what selling is.

Right?

To me, sales is a transaction between two people or two businesses based on trust. And trust is, I trust that if I solve a big problem for you, that you're going to pay me. And you trust that if I pay you, you're gonna solve a big problem for me. That's it. And so if you can cultivate a relationship between two people, cause at the end of the day, businesses do business with businesses, but really it's humans do business with humans. And so the way that I look at pricing is the bigger the problem you can solve for a very specific type of person, the more you can charge. And so I think when you get really. I have found that people have a hard time knowing charging what they're worth when they don't truly know who they serve. They're a generalist.

Right.

And I think because you lack the confidence, it's really hard to serve in the agent, let's just say agency space, because that's my context. It's really hard to learn how to dominate for a client who's say they're in the insurance industry and then the next client's in the manufacturing space and then the next client is in the legal world. Right. It's really hard to become an expert when you're having to learn these new nuances and language and KPIs and metrics that matter for different industries because they're all different and the tactics are different. And so if you don't really zero in on who you serve, it is hard to become an expert. And what comes with expertise is typically money. So I think for those who are having a hard time figuring out how to charge more get really dialed in who you serve. And I think you'll see that you provide a bigger value which will give you more confidence to increase your prices. My biggest thing when I consult is increase your prices.

Right? Yeah. I mean, that's pretty common with most sales folks we know. And maybe that does come from. Because I know you take the very human approach, which I think all salespeople kind of do at some level. But I think maybe the facade's different. But empathy, I know that's a big thing, is just truly understanding who the heck you're speaking with. And that doesn't come unless you're focused on a specific type of person. It sounds like that's right.

Yeah. If you think about, again, back to the marriage component. If all I did in my marriage was serve me and speak from the position of my opinion only, and I never tried to understand my wife and how she works and thinks, and we think very differently.

If I didn't try to do that, our marriage would not be built on a very solid foundation. And business is really no different. If you can't put yourself in the position of the buyer or the client, it's going to be really challenging for you to one, know how to serve them really well, and then two, obviously charge accordingly and sell. At the end of the day, transactions are typically based on trust. There are very few people who are going to cut me $100,000 check if they don't trust me to be a good steward of that. A hundred thousand dollars.

Right, right.

And that's all built on trust. And trust is a process and it's a relationship. And yeah, I think that's. That's what sales Is. Is. Is cultivating relationships. And if you want to grow and scale, then you need to learn how to cultivate and grow and scale relationships.

Yeah. And I know a lot of folks, I feel like, you know, I'll just speak into my own experience because I relied a ton on my relationships to scale my previous agency. We did that. Now we're working together in ours as well.

But the problem was that the sales factor of it. I know we weren't. It's probably a confidence thing because we were learning how to do these kind of things. But like you said, it was. I know for my sake, it was a little bit more generalist and that did not serve. But it's interesting. Yeah. Because a lot of creatives, I feel like, can probably be pretty good with the relationships, but there is a disconnect when it gets into the value, maybe the worth that they bring to that or maybe it's even identifying what is the need or the big value that they're bringing.

Yeah, it's really that. We've heard this phrase, probably that consultative selling.

Because there is this interesting. I call this the trust transaction model. So.

Before a transaction happens, you have to first look at it. Think of it like a stair step. Right. So each stair gets you more trust and it gets you closer to a transaction. The first step is attention. You have to command attention at some point.

Right.

If they don't know that you exist, then how can you sell them.

The next? And this one gets skipped over. Either people camp out here or they skip this entirely. Is creating likability within a relationship. And if you don't have likability, you can still do business without it, right? Oh, yeah. You could still jump from attention to credibility and skip over likability. You can also camp out on likeability and never get a deal done, which is what you're kind of talking about.

Yeah, that's definitely was my case.

Yeah. I've never actually heard it put in those words, but that makes so much sense. It's like just living in the likability phase.

Yeah. It's super intriguing because people either camp out there or they skip it entirely. But my process in this trust transaction model that we build is attention, likability, credibility, transaction.

Right.

And so my opinion on this matter is likability can't get a deal done. But likability presents more opportunities to present credibility.

Right, Right.

So you can jump attention to credibility. You're going to get a couple at bats. But if you spend a little bit of time cultivating likability, you're going to get so many more at bats at proving your credibility that you're going to get far more deals done.

Yeah, yeah. It's just a numbers game. And if you're aware. Aware of this model and what your, I guess, what your skill sets are, it's like, I know for me the likability thing, not a problem, but. And getting attention, we're pretty good at that. But then it's like the other pieces we can shore up now that we're aware of that.

And I think too, a lot of folks are afraid to ask for the sale. And the way when I'm consulting and I find that that's a road, a roadblock for folks.

I tell them that that is selfish. Like it is selfish for you if you solve a. If you realistically and you have to believe in your product to believe this, but if you solve a pain point for someone else and you withhold that from them, that's selfish. It's selfish for you not to ask for them to do a transaction with you because you solve a problem and they solve a problem for you, which is money. Right. They'll pay you money, you solve their problem or provide them some sort of, you know, you're selling pain or you're selling pleasure.

Right.

They either want to achieve a goal or they want to get rid of a pain. And so when it comes to going from likability to credibility to transaction, if you know that you can serve somebody, if I know that I can help you, it would be selfish of me to withhold that from you right now. You don't abuse the relationship for the sake of the sale. That's a different story. But you know, I think a lot of people get hung up on like, I just don't want to be salesy. It's like, no, you're not being salesy, you're serving. I think you have to really realize that we don't sell, we serve.

Yeah. And I'm assuming this probably gets easier with this whole process really knowing. Okay, so I've built up the credibility prior to asking for the sale. Because it's part of that process, right?

Yes.

Because asking for the sale, I know, again, being a likable guy or a guy that's myself included, you know, like asking for the sale does.

Is.

Is a selfish thing. If I hold that back, how. How do you suggest folks to, I guess, practice asking for the sale more? Are there ways to kind of ease into it so they can get that momentum?

Well, I think that with everything like I'm a big believer in the sales process. And like when I'm training sales reps or I'm training sales teams or I'm training up a new VP of sales or something like that for. For an agency, I always want to make sure.

That they know that every step of a sales process is building in micro yeses to get to the ultimate yes, which is sign on the dotted line, here's a paycheck, or here's a, you know, I'm going to cut you a check for your services, or your product is you want to build in micro yeses into your process.

And some of those micro yeses are that you simply just provide free value that they accept.

Right.

I believe that every step of the sales process should be, you know, value is one of those buzzwords that we all use like, oh, you've got to provide value. You know, the. What's. Gary, if you talk about the.

Jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab.

Right hook.

Yeah, exactly. Like, it's someone like that. But it's really like, you got to come with value and with direction and purpose. Like, I'm not in business to have a bunch of friends. I can go to the bar and grab a couple friends, right. I'm in business to make deals happen, but I'm going to make friends along the way doing that. And so I think that friendships, again, are built on trust. Transactions are built on trust. Trust is built through providing value. And so I think that you need to have a strategy when it comes to selling.

To your ideal customer profile. We call it a dream client profile. Same thing. You have to really know who you serve and then know what is valuable to them and start introducing value. Because what's going to happen is at some point you're not really going to have to sell. I can't tell you the amount of deals that happened. Even before I had a brand of any sort where they just were in proximity to me enough and I provided enough free value or even cheap value or whatever it might be that naturally I built up so much trust and I wasn't even trying.

So these are people that are like, Joey, sell me something, or I need your help.

Yeah, seriously. Literally. I was at a mastermind with a bunch of agencies. We were in Colorado and I have a good buddy of mine. I don't know if you guys know who he is. Ian Garlic.

I know the name, but no, he's.

Got the Garlic Marketing Show. It's a podcast. Anyway, it's a cool name. Ian always. He always Hates on me a little bit. He was like, dude, sell something. You've been in this mastermind for four years, and I've never heard you, like, pipe up about your services or whatever. Like, people are begging you. Yeah, but I'm gonna get just as many deals done if I just continue to be valuable because they're gonna come to me. And so we always kind of go back and forth, but there's one specific moment where this guy was like, I literally don't know how to solve this sales problem. And Ayn goes, joey's not gonna say anything, but he's over there. He can help you.

That's awesome.

It's good to think a good buddy of mine. So good friend. Good friends to have. Nonetheless, I think it's all about value.

Yeah. And that's the. I mean, I know Matt and I definitely get in this. I won't call it a trap, but, like, it was. It's definitely a place where it's like, wait, hold on. You've given me so much. How can I give you money? Even, like, some people almost feel like they're indebted to you in a way, but obviously with that indebtedness, they're. I don't know if that's a word. They're wanting to get more from you. They know that. Okay, well, you can really sol problem. And they're basically asking on our behalf.

Well, I feel like there's this. This. This conception. I don't know if it's a misconception or not, but there's this conception that people don't want to be sold to. They don't like to be sold to. And, you know, when. When we're on calls with people that in our minds, we've sort of connected them as friends. Now I'm always assuming, like, okay, this is my buddy now. We. We talk with them all the time. We chat, we goof off. They're my buddy. They don't want to be sold to by me, you know, so there's this conception that I have. Personally, I can't speak for Joe, but, you know, I think it's there a little bit too, if I'm guessing. But there's this conception that other people don't want to be sold to. And when I think about myself, it's actually kind of ridiculous because, like, if I go and watch, like, a webinar online, I really just want to, like, fast forward and get to the pitch. I'm like, tell me what you're selling, you know?

Yeah.

Save my time. I Just want it.

Whenever I do a webinar, I like to start off with, hey, guys, I'm just going to go ahead and tell you, if you want to skip forward to the pitch, it's at 47 minutes, go for it.

I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that, but it's probably.

Well, it's just a transparency thing. It actually kind of. It's like reverse selling to some degree.

Right.

It's almost like saying, like, you know it's coming, I know you know it's coming. So let's just call it the elephant in the room and let's get the content, you know?

Yep, yep. And I'm sure it probably, you know, even someone that's probably a little worried about doing the pitch, it almost takes a little weight off your shoulders too. You're like, well, shit, I already put it out there to them.

Exactly.

It takes the pressure off. So, yeah, I think that we have a lot of growing to do in the sales department as a whole, like, as a world. I think that we've gotten stuck in this, like, sales is a quota driven, bang on the phones all day, war room type of thing where we're at the battle table trying to manipulate a deal to feel like we, quote, unquote, won the deal. You know, if you can get it out of your mind that it's not about winning the deal, it's about serving people.

Well, if you think about like pop culture, right, you got like the wolf of Wall street and Boiler Room and, you know, coffee is for closers. Glengarry Glen Ro. Like, you've. You've got this sort of like pop culture of like, sale. Sales is like the art of getting people to buy something off of you that they don't necessarily really need or want.

That's right. Yep. And listen, there is a component where if you don't believe in what you're selling, if you don't believe in the solution you provide, that's kind of the approach you have to take. You know, I would highly suggest if you're in a business that you don't believe in what you're selling, then you probably shouldn't be in that business.

True.

But I think when you truly believe. Well, one, when you know who you serve and you truly believe that you can serve them, I think sales gets really easy and it honestly gets fun. When you can get to the point where sales is fun, your business can just skyrocket. I've seen it happen a dozen times.

When do you think it gets to that point, Because I know what you're saying. Cause I feel like I'm personally kind of getting to that point because we're starting to do a lot more deals with some other projects we're doing. And I'm just like, oh, I can get creative. Yeah. I can almost be like an investigator, throwing my little on my hat, my investigator hat and monocle and just like, let's figure this thing out.

Let's solve problems together.

Yeah. I don't know.

NLP of you.

I'm looking for one.

Yeah. How do you get to that point?

How do you get there? Yeah. So I think that there's confidence comes with consistency, in my opinion. And so I think the more at bats you get, the more confident you become with that and the more that you see your solution. Solving a problem for people, it does become a lot easier. Now how do you do that? Is the next question. And that kind of comes back to my core four that we talked about offline a little bit, which is in order for an organization, in my specific case, agency. In order for an agency to get to that place, they have to become what I call a sales driven agency. And a sales driven agency is built on our core four, which is process, technology, talent, and assets. So process is obvious. Right. Everything is built on process and systems. And don't equate that with automation and.

Quote, unquote, scaling. Right. Like, I think that we fall into this trap oftentimes where we hear process and systems and processes and we instantly think through technology and automation. How do we scale this to where we can just do none of it?

Right, right.

Process is really just the. It's a combination. So if you look at it as a hierarchy, right. There's process and inside a process, process is built, and there's playbooks inside of a process, and inside of playbooks and playbooks are the end goal you're trying to achieve. So if I want to get a meeting with the VP of sales, I have a meeting with VP of sales, Playbook.

So it's like a recipe book, basically, of like.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

And that's. And it's almost like your. A playbook is the bigger. The bigger pie. And then inside of that you have your slices, if you will. If we're going to run with this metaphor on the fly, I'm making it up. And the slices inside of that are your. What we call workflows. So it goes. Process is overarching. Process is made up of playbooks, and playbooks are made up of workflows. So Smaller workflows within based on behavior. So if a prospect or lead does this, here's the workflow that we go down. If they're stuck here, we go down this workflow and then inside of workflow for thinking like blueberries and the filling of each slice, those are called actions. So each workflow or each process is built out of playbooks, Each playbooks is built out of workflows, and every workflow is built out of actions, the smaller micro actions inside of a workflow. And so when you can create that hierarchy, and again that comes down to knowing who you serve. Because you can't create a workflow or a playbook around getting a meeting with a VP of sales if you don't, that you serve VP of sales. Sure, yeah, for a company. So when you can do that and you build process around that process, you know, we've got really macro processes. So we call left of deal process, right of deal process. So if you could picture like a sales qualified lead, like your first time appointment, if that's when a deal is created, left of deal is all of the activities, actions, workflows, et cetera, that happened before the deal, left of deal, everything that happens after that. So first time appointment, follow up, second meeting, proposal, close, retention, that's right of deal. So those are your macro processes and underneath that are micro processes, et cetera. When you can build out these processes for every step of the way in sales, it can be incredibly powerful. And the next part is, how do you make that more efficient and more effective? Then you introduce technology.

Right.

So the first core of the core four is process. The next is technology. How is it that you can streamline your workflow? How is it you can streamline your actions? Can you automate some of it and still remain effective? If so, you can buy back some time, which is more efficient. And then the last part or the last two is talent and assets. Talent is okay, you have your process in place. I always say this, I'd rather have a sales organization built on sales process than sales rock stars. I think a lot of agencies think if I just had that one salesperson that could come in and drive me leads, we would get to this place. Well, I would argue that you need sales process first, technology second, and then the people to run the technology and the process. And so really understanding who you know who's going to be part of your team, are they going to be a sales leader, a sales rep or a sales admin? And the last part is assets, what are you equipping that Salesperson with who's running that technology inside of that process. Right. It all works together. It's a core four. All that to say it's a lot of words, but. But when you have those core four in place, you're going to get a lot more at bats.

Yeah, well, and it gets a lot more. There's no questions. You know what's going to happen after the at bat comes.

And sales is both a science and an art. Right? So I'm a big believer in stabilize, optimize, scale. Like that's the three phases we always take when we bring in an agency. I'm gonna always look to stabilize the sales department, optimize the sales department and then scale the sales department. And so stabilizing is really the science that is very activity driven. It's very. I want to make sure that you get up there and you take the at bats and then once you get that down and everyone who's in the sales department is a machine, Right. And I don't say a machine as in the robotic, but they know their part, they know their workflows or they know their playbooks, their workflows, their actions. Then you get into the optimize phase, which is how is it that you optimize a reps activity? Do you introduce a sales admin to take away the non revenue generating activities and then you start introducing art. Okay, now let's work on email copy. Now let's work on a little bit more finesse on the cold calling. Let's work on. Okay, let's get a little more creative with gift giving to our prospects. So it's both a science activity, quantitative and then it's an art, which is qualitative. And when you can marry the two.

It'S an incredible game of scale because we have a growth model that we talk about. Perry is very fond of this type of model as well. He talks a lot about it and the traffic space and you guys are probably familiar with it as well. But it's pipeline, it's conversion and it's economics. So your pipeline is leads. How do we create leads? A lot of people get stuck there and if I just had more leads, we would be able to grow. Unfortunately, that's just one of three components. Second is conversion. So how many of those leads are we driving to? A closed deal. And then lastly is the economics. What are we charging, what's our retention, what's our churn, et cetera.

But what we think about is if we want to double our business, let's just say Hypothetically, we want to go from a million dollars in revenue to 2 million. We think if I'm getting 20 leads a month, closing at 20%, and we charge $1,000 a month, I need to go from 20 leads a month to 40 leads a month. That's what our natural inclination is to do.

Right.

Instead, if we just said, you know what? What if I went from 20 leads to 24 and I went from a 20% close rate to a 25% close rate. So instead of closing one out of every five, let's close one out of every four. And then instead of going from 1,000 to $2,000, what if we went from 1,000 to like 1250? If we can do all three of those things incrementally, which is only a 26% increase in each category, you're gonna get the same effect.

Right.

But it's a lot more manageable.

Probably a lot cheaper too, so you don't have to drive cheaper.

Yeah, you think about, like driving 40 leads is a massive overhead hit.

Sure.

Instead of 20. Right. If you're costing this much to drive 20, it's not going to be double that to drive 40. It's probably going to be three times that. Because you're going to get less qualified leads, you're going to have to run through and hire more people to handle those leads. It's just a big pain. It's a burden on the company. And so you're hit those boom and bust cycles of like, growth and then dropping, grow and then drop. Sustainable growth is all about that science and that art. So the science is knowing those three numbers. And the art is when you start introducing the qualitative, the art, you start incrementally increasing all three of those categories.

Dude, this is great. This is a hell of a process. Matt and I are both scribbling notes.

But yeah, going back all the way to. Because I know this connects to your core four. I mean, obviously with the name. And I just wanted to say, like, yeah, it's very interesting because you have process first, but technology comes second. It's not. Technology is first. We're not trying to automate the human out of it.

You want to have the humans, your sales reps and team, to understand the people that they're speaking with, but also understand the processes or, sorry, the playbooks and workflows, and know their actions based off of anything that really pops up in that conversation.

Yeah, and that's exactly right. Because I think this is whether you hire people or you introduce technology, in my opinion, the most success you're going to have is what we call the three Ds. So do until you can document, document until you can delegate. And delegation is either to technology. So delegate the task or the workflow or the process to a piece of technology or delegate that to a person. Right. That's your team or your talent. And so I think most people want to jump into the delegate part without doing the hard work of doing it first until you're excellent at it and then documenting it so that you can transfer it over, transfer wisdom and knowledge to someone else to do it. And then introducing technology or talent in a delegation capacity.

Right. Yeah. It's interesting because it seems like a lot less of. I don't know how to. If this basically actions. It seems like if you just slow your process down, slow your thinking and understand what's happening with not only the person you're speaking with, but within your organization and what to do with these folks, these at bats you have. And not just haphazardly, oh, I got this kind of thing, I could sell them. Let's just mold that differently depending on what their needs are. It's like, no, you have a, you have an intention going into this thing now completely as a company that you can then scale up.

Yeah, it's kind of making, it's, it's making everything much more methodical. When I think a lot of companies, their sales process doesn't have like a method behind it. There's no, no process that they follow to make sure that this stuff keeps on happening. It's just kind of like throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall and trying to see what sticks. And when you, when you look at a business through the lens of all the stuff you've been talking about, all these various processes, it kind of attaches a method to everything and takes a lot of the work out of it.

Yes. And I think that one thing that I wish more agencies would do is really develop their foot in the door offer.

So the way that a foot in the door offer really works, if people aren't familiar with that terminology, is how is it that you can get them. Remember we talked about building in micro yeses. So this is a little bit of a larger yes because they got to pay you to do it. You can have so many different ways for traffic to come in, but if you can funnel them through some form of foot in the door offer. And foot in the door offers exactly what it sounds like. You're trying to get your foot in the door with one of your Offers. And so is there a piece of your overall offer, your bigger offer that you can slice off and sell as like a one off project or a roadmap or a blueprint or an audit or something that they can pay you for and a transaction can happen where you can come in, provide some mad value and then the back end of that is alright, now that we provide you value in this way, here's the roadmap we created. Now the bigger sale comes after that. And they're already invested in you. They've already had a little bit of a larger. Yes. That they've committed to working with you. You're gonna see massive conversions just by selling that foot in the door offer. Building a little bit of trust, providing a little bit of value and then it makes the bigger pill a lot easier to swallow when you throw them a $75,000 consulting on the back end of a $7,000 roadmap.

Yeah. See, that's really awesome. You could take that kind of leap, I guess because you are. You're establishing credibility with that foot in the door offer. I'm sure it's a lot lower than they were probably even expecting to pay for a service that they might be contacting you for.

Yes.

Yeah.

And oftentimes because the way that I work, I'll just give you guys a little bit of backend of how I work. Like with Joe Gilkey and company, I won't allow even if they're ready day one, it's like, hey, I'm willing to pay you xx, you know, with a couple zeros behind it to come in and build out our sales operation internally. I'd say that's awesome. Great. Unfortunately, I'm not ready to take you on as a client yet in that capacity. Every one of my clients starts with the roadmap. And so that's where we come in and we'll diagnose and prescribe and then that prescription is what you can make a decision on after that, which is you can either take this roadmap and go try to do it internally yourself, or you could take us up on us coming in and doing it faster and efficiently.

Yeah, it's just an interesting way to. Again, you're creating a relationship based on trust and that does build that credibility.

So not only are you offering something lower ticket to get people to get like a foot in the door, people can't even buy your higher ticket stuff until they've gone through that lower ticket process.

Yes. Yeah.

It's not even because it produces more income for us. It doesn't actually on the front end. I don't make any money on the foot in the door offer. The goal for me is I want to come and improve that we're good so that I don't have a retention issue later because I'm trying to build this relationship and I'm trying to prove our value. And secondly, we use that roadmap to inform the consulting on the back end. Because a lot of what we do is fairly custom. Though we have a process and a framework, the sales driven agency framework and the core four principles. There's still nuances there that's custom. And I need to know what you guys are currently doing that you're doing well, currently doing that you're not doing well or not doing at all. And that roadmap informs how I can be a better consultant.

Right, Right.

Because I don't just want to be a consultant that comes in and tells you what you're doing wrong. That's what most consultants do. My goal is to come in and solve the problem. And I can't solve the problem if I don't really know what I'm looking at. And I've looked under the hood.

Right.

And so it's self serving in that regard, but it's also really helpful for the customer, you know, to really get an experience of working with us and seeing how we can provide value and see how we can solve even micro problems. Get you some low hanging fruit.

Yeah. And it seems like you're getting the best of the best clients. You're going to get, like you said, higher retention and you're using this collaborative approach that they are. I feel like it just makes the selling of that $75,000 consulting package on the back end pretty damn easy.

Well, I mean there's, there's, there's a, there's a sort of inherent trust benefit there of going to somebody and saying, look, I don't think you're ready for my $75,000 package. Here's what, here's what I think you should do first and then sort of downselling them on something lower. That's, I mean, what kind of trust is that going to build with them going, I tried to give you $75,000 and you didn't take that much money from me.

Yes. And you might even feel like, I know I can help them and I know I can consult with them and they'll pay me this much money. But again, going back to marriage, like I knew that I wanted to marry my wife the first week I met Her.

Wow.

But I also knew I need to invest and cultivate this relationship first.

And so going back to, you know, like, if I. If we just got married that day, that I felt that.

Exactly, you know, freak her out, we.

Would have had some stuff to work through. And even though she, she might have said yes, or could have said yes, then it's like, all right, well, let's cultivate the relationship first and do this in a healthy way.

Same thing goes for business. Sometimes we jump into marriage really fast and that can cause a lot of issues because you didn't build the foundation first. Because here's one little secret. Even though I'm an acquisition expert, right. Like my goal is to acquire new clients, and that's what people pay me to do, I care so much more about retention. It's crazy. Retention is so much more profitable than going out and landing a new client.

Let's talk about that. Because, yeah, the marketing's cheaper. You have the relationships. I'm sure they're referring people your way.

Yeah. So like our sales approach is more of an account based sales approach. And that's more of you think of a funnel where it's a really wide top of funnel and it gets really skinny at the bottom. Account based is really thinking opposite. So flipping that upside down and thinking about who are the people that I really want to work with. That's an account based approach. But the very bottom part of our approach is what we call land and expand. Right. So I want to land, or it's activate and expand. So land, activate, expand. So you land them, which closes the initial deal. Right. Maybe it's a 12 month contract. It is so expensive for me to land that deal. Hire accordingly. Right. I need to staff up or I need to take on some overhead to service that client. Let's say they're worth $100,000. And then at the end of 12 months, we get blindsided and they leave. Okay, well, I thought this was gonna be a longer term relationship. Well, now I'm at a deficit of $100,000. I've staffed up, which means I'm actually worse off than before I landed that client. And then I have to spend money to then go find another $100,000 client or focus really heavily on the relationship and delivering and credibility and likability and create retention and then have that client renew for 120,000 the next year. It cost me no dollars to do that. I didn't go to deficit. In fact, I actually got more profitable by doing that.

And next thing you know, they're referring me to another person and my cost per acquisition, there was nothing. Because I've developed a relationship and I have essentially been given trust where I normally would have to build it. Just like I'm on this podcast because Perry Marshall referred me. Well, you didn't have to really look into that because you trust Perry so much that I'm essentially, I'm working off of Perry's trust that he's built with you guys. So same thing goes with referrals. Right? Like, though I love sales and I love process, I also love referrals. I also love inbound. I love all those things. Those are great. Those are cheap. And so, you know, you need to have a process and have some accountability internally. And how is it that we can keep our clients around for the longest?

Yeah, and Perry even has, what, a principle, the whole espresso machine principle, where there's a certain percentage that are always going to just keep buying more stuff from you and more expensive stuff from you that add zeros to it. And. Yeah, it's exactly what you're saying.

It's that activate and expand. So expanding can be referrals.

Right?

Expanding externally, but then.

Also you can expand vertically with them. So it's, hey, we've been working with you for now two years, and we've solved these problems by us solving these problems. There's also been some other problems that have been created just because of operational issues or whatever. Or maybe you're ready to take on a new channel and then it makes it a much easier conversation. Like, hey, I know we've killed it for you guys for Facebook ads and Instagram ads. I think you're ready to push into YouTube and you can go spend money trying to go find the next agency who can do that. But we also have a person internally who could do that. Would you be interested in us taking it, Taking a stab at that? Right. Like, that's just a much easier sale than. Yeah, I guess you're right. I don't want to try to interview a bunch of agencies and go through the RFP process, or if you get a bunch of proposals like you guys have already delivered, like, let's. I'll let you guys take the stab at it.

Yeah, that's actually really smart. So, yeah, you lead in with whatever. It sounds like you lead in with whatever is going to solve their problem right there from day one. But it's relationships. Yeah, you've already landed them. And then the activation phase is just probably through the course of working, and then you're Identifying. Just constantly identifying. Okay, well, that's a potential need of them, of theirs, and maybe approach that in the next month or something. Or just kind of lightly put some yeses out there through the course of just delivering it sounds like.

Yeah. And even maybe you have another foot in the door that, you know, another foot in the door can be introduced where it's like, hey, I noticed we're not doing a whole lot on YouTube ads. You know, what if we just did a real quick audit of what's going on? We can do some keyword research and that kind of stuff. Would that be valuable to you guys? And then they're like, yeah, sure, let's do it. You know, cool. It'll be like three grand. We can pull it off. Or like, I'll do it at cost. It's three grand. Like, yeah, let's do it. And the next thing you know, you're now pitching them on YouTube ads too.

See, I love that right there. Like what you just said, that's just like, that's a sales pitch. And it's so just off the cuff, obviously you had it and you have an idea behind it. But yeah, like, as a customer, if I were your client, I feel like, yeah, I trust you. You're gonna make me way more than that three grand and I don't have to worry about it. Like, you're just gonna do it for me.

Cool.

Exactly.

Do that.

It's valuable for them, it's valuable for you. Yeah, it's just. It's a transaction based on trust.

Well, okay, so I have another question. And it's sort of a change of topic, but it's going all the way back to, like, the prospecting phase. Other than things like word of mouth and the existing, you know, people that you have inside of your, you know, inside of your ecosystem sharing the word about you. What's your approach to prospecting? Because I know there's probably people listening who are like, man, I don't even know where I would find people who would spend upwards of $75,000 with my company. Like, how are you going and finding these. These ideal companies outside of the word of mouth element of it?

Sure, that's a good question. I think.

Just like we, when we. When we're looking at travel, right? Like, it's. It's possible. I let. So Croatia is my wife and I's favorite place to go. If I want to get to Croatia, I need to know what city I'm in currently so I can know which airport I'm going to. Fly out of. And then I need to know where my connections look like and how long it's going to take and what hotels are going to stay in. And it's the same thing here. As you can tell, I like using metaphors.

It's the same thing here with sales is if you don't know who you serve and where you're going with them, and you don't know where you're currently at, it's really challenging to create the path there. And one, it's starting with self awareness of where my company at currently, where do we really excel? What do we really do well? And then it's asking, okay, who do we do it really well for? And it goes back to that dream client, right? So the way that I like to explain the dream client profile, there is a small market inside of your ideal market, which is inside of a commoditized market, which is inside of a total addressable market. So if you look at like a bullseye, the outside is your total addressable market. Anybody and everybody who could potentially touch your product or service in any way, shape or form, will they buy, who knows? But at least they have some application for your product. That's everybody. That could be tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands. Inside of that is the commoditized market. This is where everyone is really competing for price. So you're really looking at it's a race to the bottom on pricing. It's a commodity at this point. There's nothing like premium about what you do. That's where a lot of people really stop is the commoditized market. They're just competing on RFPs. And how can we get this to be at the lowest cost, et cetera. Inside of that's the ideal market. This is where a lot of people need to be camping. I'd argue that there's a little sub market inside of that, but the ideal market is inside of that where you can start charging a little bit more based on value based pricing, not unlike charging per hour and that kind of stuff, charging for your value that you bring. And then inside of that is that small dream market, as even Perry talks about this. Like the 8020 marketing curve is there is a small segment of your market that will pay you absurd amount of money to solve that problem for them. Who are those people who do you serve really well? And so that's probably 1 to 3% of your market, which can still be a sizable 200 to 500 accounts. And inside of the dream market are your dream clients. And the dream Clients really sit at the intersection of price so that you can charge a substantial amount more than you can for the ideal or the commoditized trust. So they trust you to do your best work. I hate Scope Creep more than anyone else. Every agency hates scope Creepy or freelancer. Anyone who has to deal in services where it's like, hey, could you just also do this real quick? It won't take much time. Yeah, but it costs me money, you know, so they trust you to be the expert. And then the last part, and all these three tie together. The last part is need. Do you have a, do you solve a massive problem for them? And at the intersection of all three of those things, the bigger the need, the more you can charge. The more they trust you, the more you can charge.

Right.

And so there are accounts out there they need to identify first. So that's where you start. Create your dream client profile. They're at the intersection of price, need and trust. Then go figure out who are those specific accounts that fit that profile. And so that's going to take some research, it's going to take some time, but you're building the foundation, you're doing that. The next is once you've figured out the accounts that you're going to serve, don't try to go after them all at one time. Break them into smaller cohorts of bite sized groups of accounts that you really want to spend a lot of time on doing one to one outreach to. And then you have to develop the key players inside of that. Who are the key players and influencers in the decision within each account. So let's just say I want to go after ABC Company and there are two people who make the decision, but there's five people who influence the decision maker. I want to define who those people are. So maybe it's the CEO and the CFO make the cut the check. But what about the executive assistant to the CEO? Can she be valuable to me? Can she or he have information that helps me make a better decision on whether or not I can serve them? Can he or she give me the mailing address of the CEO that I can send him a gift later on? Just little things like that.

Yeah, you're like triangulating.

Yes, exactly. Read a book called Challenger Customer. If anyone is into reading. Challenger Customer is all about finding those hidden influencers in the company.

Is that Challenger like one word, Challenger.

It's a challenger. No, it's challenge. Custom. Oh golly. Challenger Customer.

Yes, Challenger Customer. Challenger Customer.

If you ever heard of the Challenger Sale. Yeah, it's the same author. He wrote the Challenger customer.

Gotcha.

It's like a light blue book cover and the challenger sales are red book cover.

Perfect.

Really, really good. It's about finding the hidden influencer. And then so once you've identified all those people, then you start crafting the one to one strategies. So a lot of people think about sales of like I have to go after thousands of people to hope for a 1% yield, which means I'm going to get 10 to 20 leads and then I'm going to convert 20% of those. I have to go after a thousand people to close two deals. That is science and that is true. Or you can take a more thoughtful, methodical, one to one approach and go for a 20% conversion rate instead of one. And so I can go after, instead of going after 2000 people and converting 1% and getting 20 leads, I can go after 200 people people or 100 people converting at 20% and get 20 leads. It's just a different way of doing sales. And so this is what I've talked about. Sales can get fun is because this is doing the stuff that doesn't scale. Right. Like this is the sending the gift, this is the writing the handwritten notes, this is the sending video emails and doing IP based targeting where you only target the people in that company and you talk to them specifically in the ad.

Yep.

All these different things are part of a sales process. So I'll back up and make this a lot easier for people. Sit down. I'll give you a checklist right now. Define your dream client profile. Identify 50 accounts that fit that. Inside of those accounts, try to find two to three key players. And then after those key players have been identified, I want you to think through each one of those and find out both what's important to them professionally and what's important to them personally. Remember, we're not doing business with a job title. Like I'm not doing business with a CEO. I'm doing business with Jim, who happens to be a CEO. He also happens to have hobbies and a family and goals and pain points. And so if I can figure those things out, it's going to inform how I'm going to outreach to Jim. And so then once you've created the dream client profiles, you found the accounts, you've identified the people and done the research on them, then start thinking about how can I hit them up on different channels. Right, so that's your email, that's your phone, that's your texting that's LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram. If that's where your clients are spending time, it's your direct mail.

There is no specific channel that you should dive into outside of the ones that your clients are spending time on. So that's what I would say is when you do the research, figure out where they're spending time. Everyone uses email, right? So you can always just include email. Most are using LinkedIn. You should definitely include LinkedIn. And we just got into a $70 million deal for one of our clients on LinkedIn.

Oh, wow. Dude, there's so much gold on LinkedIn. And we've had. Yeah, it's so cool. Trevor Turnbull is a buddy. Buddy of ours that just sort of.

Oh, yeah, yeah. He's out of Vancouver, right?

Yep, yep, yep.

That's him.

He's a good buddy of ours, and he's always telling us. He's like, get on LinkedIn process.

Yeah, it's a gold mine, and people are abusing it, like, every channel, I think. And the other advice on all that is don't fall in love with the channel. Fall in love with how you serve the prospect. And if you know where you. You know, we believe that insights create strategy. Strategy informs the tactics.

Right.

And what that means is insights and data and intelligence gives me information that I can then craft a strategy around, and that strategy will tell me where to spend my time. Tactically, a lot of us want to just figure out what's the tactic that works today. Well, that might not work in six months. And what if you put all your eggs in that basket and you were dependent on Google Ads working or something like a lot of people depended on 10 years ago?

Sure.

And now you're still spending money there, but your cost per click went from $3 a click to $123 a click. Right.

But you're still holding that.

You're like, I feel like it worked once.

It's gonna come back around. It's gonna come back around.

Exactly. Same thing in sales. So I think the big channel again, email, phone, and phone is calling and Texting. Social, mostly LinkedIn if you're B2B and then physical. So that's direct mail. That's handwritten letters. That's gifts. You know, we got into a massive. One of our SEO clients works for personal injury attorneys. We got him into an $800,000 SEO client by sending the managing partner of a law firm a vintage lunchbox that was a collectible lunchbox. We found out he liked them, he collected them. He had a Picture of a wall of lunchboxes. And we screenshotted it, had our team do the research on it, figured out which one he didn't have, went on ebay, bid it on that lunchbox, and then wrote a handwritten note, put it inside the lunchbox and sent it to him. That's what I'm talking about. Like, sales can be fun.

That's some. Yeah, I love that we had Steve Sims on the show last year or something like that. And if you don't know who he is, you'd love him because he does exactly that for clients. It's just like, yeah, these insane gifts and things that people would never think of, but it gets attention.

And it's always about what's important to them.

Right? Always, always.

Don't send them your swag with your logo on it. They don't care about that. You're asking them to be an ambassador for you without you ever serving them. And so what's important to them, what makes them feel thought for? What makes them feel like you actually took the time to put in the research to understand what's important to them? And again, that creates likability. Right? That's gonna knock out attention and likability in one swoop.

Yep, that's true.

And then you had the chance to get credibility, like with that SEO client. They landed a lunch with the most powerful personal injury attorney in the Midwest, and the guy went and got ribs with our client because we sent him a lunchbox.

And then from there, deal done. Probably smothered in barbecue sauce.

That's exactly right.

Let's shake hands on this dude. This is. I can't even thank you. All the three and four step processes you have for your company is unreal.

I appreciate it, man.

It's almost like he's got a playbook or a workflow for everything, right?

Yeah.

Super odd.

I wonder how that works. Joe, you already mentioned. Shoot. Where is it? Challenge customer. And I know in my notes, in our notes, the challenge sales. Another one that really changed your outlook on sales in general. So I'm assuming that's one you would recommend as well.

For sure.

Any other book that you find yourself going to often or recommending.

I read the Go Giver once a quarter. The Go Giver is a really short 90 page book by Bob Burke. And yeah, it's just. It's really good to put things in perspective on, like, our goal is to serve people and help people. You know, for me, from a faith perspective, like, I feel like I'm a steward of my Business.

And I'm called to cultivate my business and cultivate the relationships that interact with my business. And I'm called to do good with it. And so I think the Go Giver is just a book that helps kind of reframe how you should be doing business and help, you know, the more value you provide, the more influence and money and success flows your direction. I'm a big believer in that. Money typically follows value.

So Go Givers one, let's see what else have I read recently? That's really good.

Man. I listen to audiobooks probably too much. I'm the same way. I had to detox after a while.

So you're actually consuming or sticking what you're consuming?

Yeah, literally. That's one of the things that I found out about myself was like, I don't. If I'm only going to apply like 10% of every book.

What'S all this.

Time I'm spending consuming these books? Exactly.

Another one that was really good for me was ABM is B2B by Sangram Bajrate. It's called ABM which stands for Account Based Marketing. Is B2B. Super solid book. Sangram's been a good dude. We've interacted on a couple of occasions.

If you guys are familiar, if you guys know the business of expertise. So David C. Baker.

I've heard of that. Haven't read it. Really good.

It's good for people who are kind of in the consulting or selling their knowledge world. Big fan of that. So solid. Yeah, I'm a big listener. Books sometimes I don't always apply everything I listen to, but yeah, it's just, hey, you're human.

You can only apply human. That's pretty normal.

We're all there, man. I'll give you. Last one I'll give you is how to Get a Meeting with Anyone by Stu Heineke.

It's all about like that kind of that gift giving and like how do you cut through the noise. It's a little bit of an older book, but it's really good.

Again, that kind of helps you start thinking in the framework of like, oh, sales is fun. Can be fun.

Yeah. And I think that's the big takeaway here and that's the realization I've been having recently is, yeah, just getting to know the person you're doing business with. Or you might do business just chatting with, interacting with and then figuring out some creative ways to wow them. And it's more fun. Like I know like I send loom videos mostly to folks. Oh my God, Every single time. It doesn't matter who it is. There was one day I had, like, three people say, you just made my day, my week, maybe even my month with this video. I was like, I literally just took my phone. I was sitting in my backyard just shooting the shit, just like a normal. And they're just like. I was talking to the video because I thought you were there. I'm like, well, I do that.

So every time I lend a new client, I will. I'll just shoot a video on my iPhone and text it to them.

Yep. IPhone's key, too, is that shaky video. You're just, like, walking outside.

The other day, we just onboard and new client is a good friend of mine, but.

I shot him a video, like, mid workout. You know, I was, like, breathing heavy, and she'd be like, all right, I'm gonna get back to the gym here, but just want to let you know that we're gonna take this thing to the moon.

Yeah.

He's like, dude, I love this. Thank you so much for that.

I love it. I mean, in the digital marketer world, we get so hung up on the numbers. Like, how many opt ins did we get today? How many sales did we make today? And you tend to forget over time. You sort of, like, depersonalize these numbers. You forget that, like, every single one of those opt ins, every single one of those sales is a human being on the other end. And I think when you really sort of bring that perspective back in of, like, every single one, every single number on this. This chart we're looking at is another human being that our. Our business touched. I think it. It makes it a lot. You know, it makes it a lot more impactful and. And you guys know what I'm saying?

It rehumanizes business.

Right?

Right. And there's actually. Literally, I took that from Steve Pacinelli over at Bombbomb, which is like a loan competitor. So Steve, he sent me his new book, which is called rehumanize your business, and it's all about that. Like, we treat employees, clients, prospects. What do they buy from us? What do they don't buy from us. Treat them like humans. And I think good stuff comes from that.

Joe, you're giving me way too many books to listen to. I know, man.

I'm sorry.

I'm falling into your trap.

Love it, man.

It's all good.

Where should people go after listening to this to learn more about you or maybe potentially hire you for some of your services?

Yeah, sure. Joeygilke.com, very originally named, we just launched sales driven agency, like three video free course. So people can jump into that if they want. It just talks more about the core for and kind of educates people on what are some of those processes that we talk about. What is some of the technology we need to be having? Who are the types of people we need to be hiring, what are the assets we need to be creating? Pretty basic. It's like 45 minutes. It's free. And you guys are more than welcome to jump into that. So joeygilke.com and every call to action is pretty much for that course right now.

Sweet. We'll make sure it's all linked up and people can find that easily. Joey, appreciate your extra time here too. I know we went long, but you gave us a masterclass, so big props.

Well, thank you for having me. Thanks for what you guys do. And Perry, thanks for sure.

He's getting a thank you introducing us Loom video.

Nice.

Thanks so much for tuning into that episode. I hope you dug it. I know Joe and I dug it. I actually kicked Joe out of the room. He's not here right now. Because I wanted to tell you about a tool that I really, really dig. We use it in our business. We recommend it all the time. It's called Easy Webinar and it's a tool that lets you do live webinars, automated webinars, hybrid webinars, and, you know, pretty much any other kind of webinar, if there are other kinds of webinars. But anyway, this tool is kind of like your all in one, do it all tool for anything webinar related. It's Easy Webinar. It's put out by a dude named Casey Zieman. He's been on the podcast. If you haven't listened to that episode, it's a killer episode. He's a really smart dude, but his software is amazing. It does, does everything. It's, you know, the title tells you exactly what it does. It's an easy webinar platform and we use this in our business to run automated webinars all the time. We don't do a lot of live webinars these days. We like to do the kind of automated webinars where somebody can register and then it, you know, they can either watch it like 15 minutes later or they can watch it the next day, but it's just kind of always running. And it's a system that helps us make autopilot sales off of our webinars. Super cool tool. If you haven't tried it yet, you know, it's, it's, it's an amazing tool. And Casey is actually hooking you up. He said for listeners of Hustle and Flowchart, I can't believe he's doing this, but he said for listeners of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, he's giving 25% off of the membership to use easy webinar. It's already super, super inexpensive for what it does and all the cool features it has, but he's hooking you up with 25% off because you're a listener of Hustle and flowchart. Go to easywebinar.com hustle that's where you can get that 25% off discount. That's easywebinar.com hustole. It's a awesome tool. You're going to dig it, so just go grab it. Check it out. Easywebinar.com hustle. See ya. No, not see ya. You'll hear me in the next show. I don't know. I don't know how to close these things. Go get Easy Webinar. Talk to you later. Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode.

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