Joy Houston — Copywriting That Speaks Directly To Your Ideal Customer

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flow Chart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. Wiki wiki, wiki wiki Wiki. What's up?

No, no, no. That's not your line. You're not allowed to do that.

Wiki wiki, Wiki.

That's my line.

That was Will Smith's line in Wild Wild West.

Oh, Jesus. Like, he made up the Wiki Wiki.

He made up the Wiki Wiki.

Who made up the Wiki Wiki? Well, you know who did it?

I'd have to look at Wikipedia.

That I'm. Yeah. You know, it's funny though. We're actually talking to the wife and total freaking badass.

Did you just censor yourself?

Yeah, it's not like, ever say fucking. All right. Joy Houston is a total badass. We talked to Travis Houston. This is the segue I was trying to make, is that Travis, on his podcast, really wanted to do the Wiki Wiki. Remember that?

That's true.

We let him. We gave him the honor. Yeah, but it's not his. It's not mine either.

It's just.

Whose is it?

It's Will Smith.

Doesn't matter. Will Smith. We're going to Wikipedia later and we're.

Going to talk to somebody who's wicked smart.

Oh, shit. We're on a good one right now. Joy Houston is on the podcast today and she's absolutely brilliant. And if you have listened to Travis Houston's episode, you'll notice that he is a systems maniac and has this whole process. Well, she does too. So you'll be basically strap your ass in right now because you're going to get a full, like, just blueprint on how to create the best copy, the best content, the best follow up, whatever it might be. But digging into your best prospects. Brains.

Yes. Travis and Joy have like two different brains, two different roles in the business. And they'll get into like, you know, fisticuffs if they cross each other's line.

No, archery, actually.

Oh, archery.

Crazy. I've seen it.

My money's on Joy.

Me too.

No offense, Travis.

No, no, I just trust Joy with the hard drive. All right. Can you. Carrying on. But yeah, it's really cool. She actually digs into customer thinking deeper than I've ever heard explained before. And you will walk away with, I think, three very in depth models on how she does that. And it's at a deep level. And what's really cool is that this will not get Old like tools and automations and things like that do change all the time. You got to keep up with it. But if you can master this shit. Huge, huge.

And her character diamond concept that we got into, it's towards the end. So this is kind of like once we're like 45, 50 minutes in. She explains this concept of the character diamond which you have got to stick around for. Because that like that blew my mind. I started thinking of like every personal brand, every like big name brand I can think of. And I can see exactly how this character diamond is a big piece of their success. So you have to hear that. That's towards the end of the episode. She's got a great resource where you can get something for free. So make sure you stick around and listen all the way to that because it will blow your mind.

And definitely make sure to go to the show notes because we do take notes on this episode as we do on other ones too. And trust me, it's going to be all lined out there for you too.

And the notes don't always come out the same day as the episode. May be a little bit later. Circle back around.

I saw Matt's eyes wandering, his analytical brains.

It's like we should probably warn them that it may not be there on the day the episode gets live. I think that's a good thing to warn your audience. It's a great deceiving them a little bit.

I'm not. I just don't know our systems as much as you do. I'm gonna be freaking honest. But I do know what works is our freaking traffic system. You like that segue? Yeah, I like that. All right. Evergreen Traffic Playbook. If I didn't buster your drums, I hope I didn't. I'm sorry. Tika, please lower that volume a little bit. Yeah. The Evergreen Traffic Playbook is absolutely free. It's evergreen trap, evergreen profits.com trafficbook and that thing lines out exactly how we do our traffic retargeting and friggin all this crazy stuff that you've heard us talk about a million times.

If you listen to us and then you all of a sudden see us everywhere, on Facebook and Google and people's blogs and everywhere.

Then that would be everywhere.

This book explains how we did that. Evergreenprofits.com trafficbook evergreenprofits.com trafficbook no dash between traffic and book, just evergreenprofits.com trafficbook how.

Fast can you save it? Evergreenprofits.com trafficbook all right, that's enough. I'm Over. But go there. It's pretty awesome. All right, let's go over to Joy Houston. Hello. Hello, Joy. Welcome to the show.

Hello. Thanks for having me on, guys.

Of course.

Yeah.

I mean, you kind of threatened us because you have archery skills that are fricking, like, better than anyone I know. You kind of threatened us with.

And then he's like, you're trending on Facebook. And I'm like, I thought it was a business thing. I'm like, oh, yay. And he's like, no, you're archery.

That was one of the coolest. No shit. That was one of the coolest videos. Cause it was like, slow mo. Your son was there, and your buddy. I don't know his name.

So Joe's trying to tell you that you're only on the show because he's scared of you.

Yeah.

Threatened by you, G. No, I'm just kidding.

Okay. I've been told I'm intimidating, but that brings a whole new level.

They're sharp objects that fly really fast in the air. Accurately. No, that was really cool. And selfishly, I want to make one, like, a little range in my yard, and it's like a good stress reliever.

To the range in Balboa Park. Just bring wife. Bring your hot wife and let us go shooting.

She's a hot wife.

You do have a hot wife.

Yeah. So we had your loving husband on the show maybe two months ago, and so you're probably going to blow him away, so that's fine. I'm sure he'll love to hear that.

I was surprised. He gave me credit for some things. I was like, oh, he actually. Credit where credit is due. Totally on stage. He doesn't have to take the time to do that, I guess, since I know you guys, too. He was like, bye. But I better fess up.

He's an honest man. Totally.

He's the best.

Yeah. Well, you guys have done. I mean, you individual. Well, I honestly don't know. I know you guys have both worked with amazing people, big brands and just doing all sorts of stuff. But let's get into your story and kind of where this all kind of shaped up from and what you're doing now.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So I'm a competitive. So I have anxiety about giving a whole bunch of story because I feel all this internal pressure to deliver content for your people. Right.

It's okay.

I'll relax. I'll chill out. I'll be a little more humanistic with you. It's a long story, but you discussed some of that with Travis. And the really short version is that I got into marketing by putting the cart before the horse. And that's a great way to fail. And if I fail, I like to fail forward fast, which is exactly what we did. So you spoke with Travis. He's the CEO of our super funnel and my fearless husband. And he told you that we sort of did this life gamble, and we jumped out of the real estate business right at the crash time. Was really scary, right? And decided, well, hey, do we show our kids that you just stick with it and stuff you hate, or do we tell them, like, hey, if there's something really passionate, you think you can make a fucking difference in the world, you get your ass out there and you put it on the line and you do it. And that's what we did. So I don't know if you're aware of this, but Travis and I had big fertility problems, getting pregnant with Maverick, our son Maverick, who's now 10. Thankfully, we got through it, but we got through that. For me, I was the one who was having the challenges by using a raw food diet. And it was like, no, not going to happen for you. Not going to happen for you. Sorry, forget it. Maybe think about adoption, these kind of things. And three months into a raw food diet, bam, no problem. Pregnant, no problem. No timing. None of that crazy shit. So for me, I was like, wow, I am so passionate about this. How many other women are crying in the back of their closet because they really want something so badly and they're feeling like a failure, Their body's failing them, right? Maybe they feel like they're failing their husband, too. So it just layers on all this icky crap, you know? Not to mention, on that journey, I met so many other people who healed themselves of crazy shit from, like, just changing their diet. So I thought, okay, I'm going to go to living, like, Culinary Arts Institute, and I'm going to build a course, and I'm going to help people do this, right? So I was on a mission. And Travis loved marketing so much. He loved everything about it. He had always been following gurus. And he finally was like, dude, I'm going to take every course I can get my hands on. I'm gonna go crazy. I'm gonna do this. And. And we thought, great, right? So when you're great at marketing and I have this whole course, bill, we'll be like chocolate and peanut butter, and we'll smash them together, and it'll be, like, so delicious. Like, nobody could really could resist that, right? Yeah, well, we didn't know anything about fucking marketing at the time. Right. I had no business building a course. You know, what I should have been doing was building a community and then seeing what they need. That's what we guide people through now. Like, don't go invest in time and money in building a course until you've had an iterative process with a live group and you know exactly what their hurdles are, and you can refine them a few times before you finally put the course together. So we learned that all along the way. So I was doing living like Culinary Arts Institute, and I was, you know, building this membership site backwards because this is all you guys have is so easy right now with like, Kartra and click funnel pages. Like, everything's so fucking easy.

We're a little spoiled.

You didn't have that. I remember I had to build that course backwards because WordPress didn't even have the ability to move the posts into a different order. So if you wanted to build the course, you had to put the beginning at the.

Oh, my God.

I remember that we used to build courses on, like, wishlist member and that we had to do it that way.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I used to. The wishlist member plugin for WordPress. It was crazy.

Yeah.

So. And you guys have been around that long. So I'm figuring out WordPress and, you know, Travis is learning everything he can from everybody. And so I'm filming this course and he's doing. You know, he sets me up with the film and the video because he did marketing, and he also dove into video, sound, lighting, everything to make it perfect. So we thought, oh, we'll be this dream team, right? Well, the course totally bombed because, like I said, we didn't know anything about building community at the time. But luckily we had two plays going on. We were building this on one side and on other side, Travis was using all the skills that he was learning to promote for Koenigs. Mike Koenigs.

Yep. He's a good friend of all of ours.

Yeah, we love him now, but at the time, we didn't know him. We didn't know any of those guys. Like, all these big guys now that we used to look up to. Like, now we just kind of shit the shit. It's amazing. But Travis decided, I'm gonna be an affiliate. I'm gonna make this leaderboard. And it was for a Main street marketing machine, right?

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was. He ended up being number nine on the leaderboard. Out of nowhere, I'm Talking about big dudes on there, I think Frank Curtin was maybe number one on that list. So it's like big dogs, right? The big dogs in the marketing space were on this leaderboard for selling it, and he was number nine. This guy nobody heard of, nobody knew him. Completely out of nowhere. And he was like, I got this because Mike's already got an audience. He's already got community. So we knew how we were screwing up on one side, but there was already a community around that. There was already community that wanted that. That's when all these marketing courses and these people teach you well. They work really well if you already know how to connect with people and you already have a community. So he put all of those things into play, and bam, there he was on the leaderboard, just like he wanted. And then we got back into a good financial swing. That was the tipping point for us, where we're like, oh, my God, this is amazing and so fun, and we're both really compet. So he dove more into marketing. I dove more into communication and copywriting and personality styles. And we decided, let's go ahead and push forward on the marketing side of things. And that's how we came to develop launcher. And that grew into what he's doing now. Super funnel. And so it all worked out great. You know, you learn everything you need to learn along the way. Yeah, but along the way, you know, it was interesting, that raw food course. You know, raw food is an amazing healing way to eat, But I also got really sick from it.

I heard that's a thing.

Yeah, I got really sick. So then there was this sort of psychological scare, too, of like, oh, my gosh, like, I don't even want to go back and try to promote that course with our new skills, because I don't know if it's good for you or bad for you. So I had, like, a moral dilemma. Right. But I knew I loved the health space. I loved anything that could help make people's lives better, whether it was their relationship or their, you know, we've been able to work for Daniel. Amen. The change your brain, change your life guy. JJ Virgin, who made, like, the elimination diet simplified for middle America, and Sarah Gottfried and just amazing people in the health and betterment space. I'm working on a project right now with Metagenics, who's really changing this whole burnout conversation of doctors and getting them over to the personalized lifestyle medicine. So I gravitate toward brands that, wow, like, they're really doing something that I think makes Humanity better makes the world a better place to live. So as I, as I walked away from raw food and started going towards betterment of anybody I could get my hands on, I just got really lucky, you know, and it's like, you know, we did one New York Times bestseller campaign, and then that's kind of a circle. Right. So one tells another, tells another, and next thing you know, people are saying, hey, if you need this, go talk to these people.

That's how it works.

Yeah. So we got really lucky where we kind of leapfrogged from amazing brand to amazing brand. Amazing brands. And like this contract now with Medgenic, they're a half a billion dollars and they're getting people off of drugs and onto supplements and lifestyle changes. So for me, that's a win that aligns with my values. So that's the sort of long winded story of how we went from failing on our very first mission. The figuring out that, like, you got to go deep, you got to dive in, you got to really understand your audience and connect with them. And then here we are now. Loving it. Yeah.

How old is Maverick?

Your son Maverick is 10. He just turned 10 last December.

So this whole journey was 11ish years. Well, maybe even more. I don't know how long you're 10?

Yeah, he had his first birthday when we made that sort of life jump. Wow. So, yeah, just about 10 years.

And props to you for the whole infertility stuff. My wife and I are definitely going through that, so I understand what you're talking about there. It's not easy, especially I can imagine for the woman. I know, it's way harder.

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff there. Feel free to have her reach out to me. And I've had an amazing infertility guy in one of my courses called Copyright Conscious Copy Converts, and he dove in and, oh, my God, I felt bad for the other students because I kind of felt like, oh, he was my prize pupil because he was solving a problem that I had in life. So if he had his homework in, you could bet his was the one I was using, for example.

On the course.

Nothing wrong with that. That's awesome. And the fact that you guys have gone through that together, you and Travis as a team, getting through all that whole startup phase, obviously, kids stuff, family life. How does it look now when you guys are working together? And obviously he has a super funnel thing, so it's a little separate, it sounds like. Have you found that to be what you thought it would be, working with your husband?

Or, oh, my gosh, it's weird because it's way better and it's way worse. Right. It's just that there's more on the line. Right. Because being married is challenging enough. Right. You got to keep it sexy and fun and fresh and playful, but you also got to make money and you got to get the kids in bed in time, and you got to balance all this crazy if you want to dip, like, a deep, rich relationship with your partner. And we do, like, both of us have a really fucking high bar for, like, who we are for each other, how couples need to be for each other, have each other's back. Like, we have a really high bar.

Yeah.

And. And so when you work together.

It'S interesting. I ended up studying, like, Marshall Rosenberg, nonviolent communication, Alison Armstrong, like, everything I could get my hands on about relationships and communication, which, of course, helped my copywriting. So that was awesome. But I ended up having to dig deep into stuff because that's a great question. Working together is harder because there's more on the line. Just imagine your relationship if you guys don't work with your partners. You know, there's balancing that. And then you're also at the office all day, where I am in a completely different mode. Like, when I'm working, I'm hunting. I am a hunter. So don't treat me like a fucking gatherer. Like, don't treat me like I'm just walking around, like, relax, doing whatever, like, pick. Picking flowers and picking berries. Like, being a gatherer. I have my bow out and I am hunting. And that means shit gets done. It gets done my way. It gets done the way I say it gets done. And if you're not going to get it done that way, then just be in communication with me and it's all good, right?

Yeah.

So if I'm that way, right? And then he's that way, too. You can imagine where, you know, there's days we want to point our bows at each other. So what it requires is getting really clear on side align. So he picks tech, right? So if we're working on a brand together and he does their tech stack inventory, and he's like, okay, based on where they're at, based on how many followers, based on this. He picks the tech stack, right? And how those are going to go together. And I pick the connection flow. So I pick the connection. What's the journey between just meeting this brand and falling in fucking love with this brand? So it's like he lets me map my partner and he shows me what options we have, and I show him. We have these things called full funnel flowcharts in our office. They are anal retentive, but also simple and elegant. It's like a flowchart like most people use, but instead of just a visual flowchart, you can click on the link of the opt in page box, and it takes you to the opt in page wherever it's built. Clickfunnels, Kartra wherever. You can click on the email nurture series, and it takes you to that copy doc in Google Docs. Right. So I line out for him, okay, this is what I want the customer journey to look like. What are my choices? Right. So he'll say, okay, they haven't invested in this platform, so all this fancy tagging that you want, you're not going to get that. So we kind of hash it out together.

We'll look at the overall strategy based on the tech that they already have and they're willing to invest in, and then I can stretch over that. The content that I want visitor to get from when they first begin until they are in love with the brand. So. So everything on his side of the line, I just have to defer.

Yeah.

Like, if I think, like, oh, you know what? This team, they're not super advanced. I'd rather see them on whatever. Fill in the blank. I'd rather see them on Kartra. I'd rather see them on clickfunnels. Okay, well, Dre, they don't want to invest in, like, I just don't even question him anymore. Like, that's his side of the line. And he doesn't come over to my side of the line and just start, like, whatever, putting whatever copy he wants on an opt in page or whatever. So he recognizes my expert and my side of the line. I recognize his expertise in his side of the line. That's the only way it works. I love it when you get it clear. It works better. Because then big wins on the company side of things result in big celebrations on the romantic and fun side of things, too.

Sure. I mean, this goes for any kind of partners I know. Matt and I, we have a pretty dang clear delineation of what we're good at and what we should be handling in the biz.

Yeah, we don't celebrate on the romantic side as much, though.

Not as much.

No.

Little kiss is the bad life.

I can keep going with that, but I'm not gonna. We could rub our beards together, and it creates magical things, you know? But no, that's I'm actually curious really quick. Who is the spreadsheeter of the two of you or is it both of you?

Okay, so this is interesting. I don't know if it's a fabulous fucking spreadsheet and I know he listens to your podcast, so, honey, I love you and I'm sorry, but. So he would make a spreadsheet that is so complicated that, like, sometimes other parts of the team maybe couldn't even understand it, really. And then I like to go back through and take the essential parts, like just the essential parts and simplify it and make it a little bit more elegant. So I would say he is the mastermind on like, okay, here's the overall big picture, like 30,000 foot view. And then because for my blonde brain, like, that shit is too complicated. I'm like, okay, let me simplify it down and make it in a way that is a super visual, you know, just pragmatically really functional. Functional. And then share it with the team and see how they do. Because the other thing, when you're doing agency work, you guys have done this in the past, so, you know, you just never know how the teams of the brands that you're working are like, in terms of their tech savviness and how much they see the whole big picture of marketing and how much they understand everything. And a lot of times they're really segmented, right? Like the social media people are not talking to the calendar people over on the blog post side of things or the YouTube side of things. So it's amazing how much, you know, lack of cohesiveness can be going on in a brand when we first come in. So the spreadsheets are essential, right, because they get everybody on board and have a central hub for what's going on for. We have like the weekly marketing spreadsheet, for example, and that's where everybody's given their numbers on one central hub. And that's like a, you know, that should be a 15 minute meeting. Everybody like, rattles off what's going on. So I'd say he creates the spreadsheets and then when I put them into play, I kind of simplify them down a little bit. So I would say he's the master of that.

I love it. Yeah. I remember seeing Travis as the last mastermind when we had, I think Darren Hardy was there, so he was like, oh, I'm going to ask him some good questions about this. And he was like the most prolific note taker I've ever seen during a mastermind. Like an in Person thing. Just had a coffee shop.

Well, halfway through that meeting, I looked over and saw his notes on his computer. And I stop taking notes. And I just said, hey, share those with me. Those are better than the notes I'm taking.

Oh, his notes are insane. His notes are insane. And his capacity to like soak up stuff, like new stuff is amazing. Like, you know, luckily I'm, I'm really lucky in two ways. One, and that way he'll harvest all this amazing information and so I can kind of pick, like cherry pick exactly which parts I want to take and implement on my side of the line. And same with people. Like, he's a really superhuman connector.

Yes.

And he could. He just meets and connects with everybody and remembers everything. And me, I can be a little introverted when I'm out. Like, I'd rather have one on one conversations that go really deep and try to meet everybody in a room. And so he does the same thing in that regard. Like he just meets, Creates an amazing community. And then I get to spend more private time with them one on one, like at our house or whatever, and get to go deep and know more about their businesses, what's going on. And that's what I prefer. So in that way we balance each other really well.

Sounds like it. That's perfect. Well, I'm curious about the whole personality styles and. Oh yeah, because I mean, you are all about copywriting content essentials and speaking and connecting authentically. That's what we were talking about, like right before this, Travis was telling you, like, don't cuss so much. I'm like, no fucking cuss.

Be you.

Be you.

I know he says, you'll never be sponsored by Disney, honey, that's all right.

I could do with that.

My fucking audience. I don't really care.

Okay, so where does this all start? I guess, you know, where does this authentic nature come from? And then how can that translate into actual copy and content?

Yeah, well, you know, everybody has their style. Every copywriter has their own style. But for me, like, for example, I don't do copy for any brand that doesn't start with having an avatar and empathy map package done right. And the reason for that is because, you know, we can guess what the language is that our audience needs to hear. We can kind of presume what they're feeling. We can, you know, look at, you know, I'll tell you, we have three ways of harvesting information when we're looking at a brand, whether or not we want to work with them. And it's competition. Telepathy Right. So what's going on in their niche? Like, who else is a big name in their space? Competition. Telepathy. Content. Telepathy, which is looking through all of their content, like comments on Facebook, comments on Amazon, comments in their courses or whatever, and see what are people saying and what are their challenges, what they love, what do they hate. And then there's actual customer telepathy. And the avatar and empathy map is made from customer telepathy. And that's where you actually get people on the phone. Now, I don't think brands should do this themselves. I think that they should have a third party do it. I mean, obviously I love if they have me do it, but they could just have a neutral third party, like someone who, you know, maybe is a. Like a coach in their groups. For example, like, if they have a group program and there's someone who's a really badass coach in their group and answers questions so they know the content inside and out, they kind of already know the people a little bit. So, like, a coach would be a good person to have do this. And you have this person interview at least at a minimum 20 people, and you ask them questions. This is live on the phone. This is not, you know, like Ryan Levesque asked them in the survey. That's a great place to start. But if you really want to do it, I think you get them on the phone and most people start right in asking about themselves. Right. Like, what do you like about our product? How'd you find us? Who referred you? It's all about me, me, me, me, me, the brand. But if you really want people to open up, you got to get them talking about who.

Them.

Them. Exactly, exactly. So whoever does these interviews, you know, should sort of be familiar with a psych interview processes, which is where you ask for the why behind the why behind the why behind the why. Right. So I would say to you guys, like, okay, you did your perpetual audience growth. Right. You loved it.

Yep.

But tell me this. Before you even heard about those guys, before you even heard about them, what was going on in your life? Just tell me. Give me a picture of what was going on in your life before you even heard about that, before you heard the podcast, before you saw the website, even heard about the course, just tell me what was going on in your life.

Life.

And you ask them that, and that's when they start telling you, like, shit. Like, Travis told you our story. I told you our show. Like, oh, my God, I was getting out of this career. I hate it. Blah, blah, blah. Like, they start barfing out their whole life story that was happening right before they met you. Now, why is that important?

But you guys could guess because you're good marketers, why is that important?

You're getting into that deep seated, like, what's the why? Like you said, you ask why almost three times. So you get to that root, like, why is it they're actually taking.

They're going to tell you what was going on. Like, they were like, oh, I lost my, you know, I lost my job, or I hate my job. Or, you know what, my job makes shit tons of money. But I have golden handcuffs, right? Like, I make all this money, but I hate it. You know, that'll happen. A lot of people like the pharmaceutical space or what, like, you know, selling big cigarettes or whatever, like, they just don't love what they're doing, right? So if you get to know that about people. You guys, though, because you run Facebook ads, you run all kinds of different marketing, right? They're gonna tell you what happened. Oh, then I was on Facebook and I saw this post. Then I was on YouTube and I saw such and such a video. And that led me to another guy's video and another guy's video and another guy's post and another guy's PDF, and then I downloaded this. And so you can see exactly the ponds that your avatars were swimming in right before they met you.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

That makes total sense.

Yeah. No, I love it. I was just writing down. I'm like, we need to call our top 20 customers right now who's completing the course?

And then you start this conversation where, oh, they thought they were going to be talking about you. Really? And now they're on the phone call and they're 10, 15, 20 minutes in, talking about themselves, their favorite topic.

Yeah, right. That's so cool.

And I imagine pretty much everything they say translates into your sales message because you start to learn the types of wording they use. And after talking to a whole bunch of people, you start to learn, okay, here's like a common struggle that's come up like six times. Maybe we should put that into our copy.

You got it. Exactly. And so if you phase the question. So it's like, I have these questions, like, what was going on in your life before. Before you encountered the brand? Right? And then the next phase of questions is like, okay, so all that crazy shit, I'm so sorry. Right? You empathize with them. Dude, that sounds so stressful. How'd you ever make it through, blah, blah. Your wife almost left you. Oh, my God, that's terr. You're providing all this empathy for them and making sure they feel really, really heard. And then you pause and shift, like, okay, so well, then how did you find out about this guy? How did you end up in the professional audience growth course? Like, oh, okay, here's the deal. I saw this. And then I'm like, okay, hold on. So you saw that? But there's a million guys doing what they do. There's a million guys doing that. Like, why did you take their course? What was different? Oh, well, you know, they're super vulnerable. They're telling their stories. Like, here we hear about his adopted K. Well, trump this and that. And I had a struggle like this in my life. They start barfing out. Exactly why they like you better than the next guy who could teach what.

You guys teach a hundred percent. That is so dang valuable. And we've done that informally without really so systematic, like you're saying right here. But, I mean, it's so easy. Anybody could do this.

It's so easy. Anybody could do it, right? So you said you have your before questions, and then you have your discovery. How do they discover? And then you kind of get into the nitty gritty, right? Then you go, okay, so you love them because they were super vulnerable, and you love their podcast, and they were super funny, and they seem to know a bunch of people in the industry, so, you know. And they admit their own faults, right? A whole bunch of these guys want to act like they just make a million dollars every month straight out the gate, and they never had to suffer. And y' all know that that shit's not for real.

How?

Like, hashtag truth.

So, okay, so we love them. Okay, great. So. So it was the day that the car opened and you decided to buy. Like, what was it? Why did you do it? How'd you feel? And they will tell you, like, oh, I bought it to learn. I bought it to learn how to always have traffic coming in. Okay, why. Why did you want all this traffic? Well, because I need the consistency of my income. Well, why? Well, because, you know, my last sales job had really intermittent money. Like, it was big wins and then big dry spells, and that makes my wife fucking crazy. I thought that bitch was gonna leave me. Now you have a real selling point, right? So, like, yeah, you could say consistent income or whatever you could say that.

You want, save your marriage, buy our.

Shit on a page. But when you put that next to it and say, like, so and so said, hey, my wife was about to leave me. Shit was so scary, right?

Yeah. You don't see testimonials like that too often for influence, but I'm sure you could.

So you get into the juicy stuff of like, well, yeah, he wanted consistent money, but why, you know? Well, he didn't want to be having to be on Tinder figuring out tech dating. Right. You want to figure that out? So you see where I'm going with this? It's like the more you ask why and why and why, the more you get actual copy. Now, keep in mind that I have this before they met the brand. Oh. Then when they discovered the brands, and then when they made the buying decision. Right. And then I asked them, okay, so you got it. You're in the course. Tell me what happened. Oh, well, at first, I felt like the big idiot in the room. Everybody seemed to know more than me in the chat room, whatever, you know, in the Facebook group, whatever. So you get to know what it was like for him. Now, these questions are badass for you guys because A, it can help you fix any problems in your offer that needs to be fixed, and B, it gives you more offers. Like, you can see. Oh, they always had a challenge with this one particular aspect of what we were teaching. Oh, dude. We could have a breakout session and upsell private coaching on that. You know, however you want to handle that problem. Handling that problem is another open door for another sale with that person.

100%. Yeah. Love it.

Yeah. See, so now you ask. Okay, during. So that's during the interaction with the brands. Okay. Now after, when it was all over, what happened? And that's where you get your juicy testimonial stuff. We're like, well, not only is my wife staying with me, but I brought her a brand new ring and I took her to Tahiti and, you know, like, she's loving it. I'm loving it. I'm feeling more confident in my life because I have a job that I love and it's making more money and blah, blah. And you get to these really juicy testimonials that they want to share with you once they get to the other side. And then I always wrap up with a series of personal questions that are just kind of about them. Like, oh, my God, thank you so much. This is so helpful. I'm so glad that you shared all this with me. Now just tell me a little bit about you. Like, if I was following you around online, where would I see you? What other things do you like? Archery, Blogging, cooking, golf, like, what do you like? Right? And believe it or not, you guys, it sounds like I'm just being crazy and all over the place, but there are patterns in the chaos. That's the way nature is. Like everything can look completely fucking chaotic, but there are patterns because you are who you are, you guys are who you are and you are going to have a resonant frequency that works for a certain audience and doesn't work for others. And so what I like to do is take all of this customer journey. Now I know where they're fishing, what ponds they hang out in, what emotional state they're in, and I can break it up. So that before is your advertising. Yes, Right. And then the marketing is talking about their stories, what's going on in their life. And then the sales is everything that had them make the buying decision, why they chose you out of everybody else. And then the fulfillment series is all the things that we know they struggled in getting through the course. Well, the emails in the fulfillment sequence, they support them and say, okay guys, this part's going to be hard, but don't worry. Right? So we had a fulfillment sequence. So now the stick rate in our product is better because we're actually helping them go through the challenges they complained about. And then you have post purchases like, how do we get them into more things? That is our brand. So you literally take the language that they gave you and you insert it into your copy.

That could be the entire, like, that's everything you do.

What if somebody's starting a brand new company and they don't have customers, they don't have a list, they don't have any prospects yet, they're starting from scratch. How would you recommend they get the initial languaging for an offer?

First off, I don't believe that anybody who hasn't proven that their process work deserves the right to sell, which is a very radical statement, I know. But here's the thing. If you don't know if you're bringing an offer to the world and you don't know that it works, then you should get people into that offer for either free or really cheap or whatever it takes. Get everyone you know who's interested in that and have them let you help them, right? And then iterate on the process one, two, maybe three times. And as you iterate and as you help people, you're going to see that, okay, all this information that you have in your head, all this brilliant shit that you think you know and the world needs to know, you might Know it so well that it's. You're not teaching it clearly enough that people who don't understand it can absorb it and put it into action. And if they can't absorb it and put it into action, it's kind of useless. So I think that if you are a brand who has no lists and no people, you at least need proof. And guys, you need it for yourself, right? Like, who feels like a fucking phony if they're selling something that they don't believe works? Which is why I don't write for anybody who I don't do their avatar and empathy maps. Because I'll tell you what, if I do avatar and empathy maps and nobody had good results and nobody liked it, do you think I'm gonna take a copy contract from that person?

I would hope not.

No. No fucking way. There's no way. Because you know what? I like putting my head on my pillow at night and feeling like, like, bitch, you did a good job. You helped a good person doing good things in the world reach more people who need them. And good on you, babe. Go to sleep, right? And if I didn't have that, I would be a wreck, you know, Just a wreck.

I just love this whole thing because I'm just seeing just even an interview with one person. But if you get 20, I'm assuming you're distilling all that stuff into kind of a cohesive pattern that you're finding. That's your friggin sales page right there. Your entire copy. Video, content, videos.

And that brings us back to what you wanted to touch on. I know this is kind of a long thing, but you wanted to touch on personality styles. If you just talk to one person, that person is one primary personality style, right? And if you do 20 or 40, for God's sake, you know you're gonna have a little bit of each, right? So you're gonna get some competitive, some methodical, some humanistic, some spontaneous, and you're gonna see patterns. And that's where they emerge, right? So you'll see patterns in the language like you said. I remember we were. I remember I was doing the avatar and empathy map for Isabella Wentz. You know, she does thyroid. She's the thyroid pharmacist. They did that whole documentary. I love that couple. They are amazing. And in doing their avatar empathy maps, I remember this one word kept coming up in every personality style. It was bone crushing fatigue. Like you could say their hormones off. And I was being a bitch. And I didn't know I was tired and. But Whether it was a, you know, a 21 year old girl dealing with it or it was a 64 year old woman, for some reason they all used this phrase, bone crushing fatigue.

Wow.

So why wouldn't we make sure that that's like the top of page word, right?

That's your headline in there somewhere.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. You guys can.

No, this is amazing. Just breaking down that whole process because it sounds so fundamental. Go talk to your customers. But then you laid out this whole process which if you listening, did not follow along. We'll have those notes for you. We always like to take notes. A little companion thing on the show. Notes too.

Notes. I love that you guys have that as an opt in, by the way. That is so fucking awesome.

It is fucking awesome.

People talk about niche, right? Like, okay, the person liked this talk. Okay, let's, let's give them notes for just that talk. Like it does not get any more customized. I love it.

What people don't know behind the scenes is every time you opt in for one of those, we now know exactly what interests you have. And we can retarget you and we can mail you stuff based on the interests that you've basically told us you like because you've downloaded those companions.

Stop showing the wizard.

I love you. No, that's great. So this is exactly where when Travis and I talk, I'm like, okay, what system are they using? Okay, they use HubSpot. Great. The tagging is amazeballs. We can do campaigns that break them off here and here and here and here. And we can have 20 more conversations. Great. Right. Of course, the full funnel flowchart on that looks like Disneyland map.

Oh yeah.

It's a little bit harder color coded I'm sure to understand, but yeah.

So, okay, this is amazing. Yeah. So you have. Go ahead, Matt.

On the personality types thing, what are the four basic personality types and like what defines them?

Well, I like to use the terminology from Myers Briggs, but you guys, they're pretty much all like the same, right? I won't say they're exactly the same, but they're super fucking similar. And there's the competitives and the spontaneous, the humanistic and the methodical. Now I want you to think of those like if you picture them on an axis. Right. So if competitive is in the upper right hand corner and spontaneous is in the lower right hand corner and hypothetical is in the upper left and humanistic is in the lower left. Right. Well, the up down access at the top, it's very intellectual. Very intellectual. And at the bottom it's emotional, super based, making decisions super based on emotion. Now we all buy based on emotion. But if we are a very intellectual person, we are emotional about making smart decisions, right? So don't confuse those two. Everybody makes emotional decisions, decisions. And then on the horizontal axis on the right hand side, the competitors in the spontaneous are very fast paced, right? They're the reason you need a buy now button above the fucking fold.

True.

Because as a person like me, do not make me read your long form fucking sales letter like I already know I love you. I want to buy it. Don't make me wait. Right? So because we make such fast paced decisions, we need to make sure that there's buy now button above the fold. There's sort of off ramps to the sale earlier in the conversation.

For those people on the other side, at opposite of being fast paced, they're super deliberate. So they want to look at it one step at a time. They're going to go through it slower, they're going to absorb it all and then they're going to make a decision. Right? So they're the reason you need a long term nurture, right? So you have these four different types and if you are able to give all of them what they need, I think every sales page should address all four personality types. I think every sales page should do that. And then I think that we should have content that's geared toward these people. So Travis shared the 1 through 15 process. And you guys know how much content you have to make to have a funnel go crazy and just be super successful. But that process, if you didn't see that episode, go back and watch that one with Travis. It was really good. Good job, honey. But it's one offer. Three lures, we call them lures, you might call them opt ins or lead magnets. So it's one really well refined offer. What's your upsell down sell back continuity, everything super solid offer three lures, ways to bring them in, and then five pieces of content related to each of the three lures. Now you might need more content than that, but it's much easier on your weekly meetings if you're only checking five pieces of content and you keep the winners and you kill the losers and you're only tracking 15 pieces. That gets a lot easier for you, right? Especially when you add on for every piece of content, every one of those five pieces of content, you need at least three ads that you're running. So now that's 45 pieces of thing to be tracking. So you can see how this gets exponentially huge in terms of every little piece that you have to track all the time. So if you have one article, five. Right. So one for the competitives. Right. They want to win. They want to be able to do it faster and better than anybody else if Oprah's doing it. They want to know how the spontaneous people, they're like, ooh, new, shiny, different, fun, step by step, you know, like those, the spontaneous people, they're both of those are fast paced. So we want articles that work for those, one for competitive, one for spontaneous. And then we need some more slower, like pieces of content that have human story, both about you, so they trust you and about stories about how this can affect them and their community and other people. And then you need one for the methodical, which is the data and the charts and the graphs and the proof. Right. And they're very intelligent, intellectual, like the competitive. So they also want you to tell them step by step how this is going to go down. No surprises. Right. So even on those prices, if it's, if there's like an opt in, I'll tell them like, hey, when you click this button, you're going to be taken to Google Drive where you're going to get the spreadsheet. So like I will forewarn a methodical that I'm taking them a couple of clicks away.

Yeah, so you're showing them the process before they take it. Because they want to know. Yeah.

So they have time to digest it and think about it. Like, oh, okay, why did she take me into Google? Why did she, why did Google Docs open when I hit the button to get the download that I wanted? Right, right. Well, that's because we're actually giving you a spreadsheet that you can use right inside your own Google Drive. So I want to make sure they know about that before I just take them to another page. And they're like, what the heck? How come I'm not getting my opt in right now? I'm on a Google page that doesn't make any sense to me. So we'll forewarn them and stuff like that. So we have one for all four and then the fifth one is what I call a catch all. And the catch all will start at the top with a competitive headline and then a spontaneous subhead and then a humanistic body and a methodical close. So it's sort of like a catch all.

And that's cool because the close I'm assuming is a little further down the page where the spontaneous types will probably have already taken action or clicked away if it doesn't resonate or whatever. Yeah, those guys have made it all the way down to the very end because they want to see everything. So it's like that flow that you just said there makes perfect sense too. That's cool.

That's the avatar and empathy map processes. Once you have all of that, then I color code the data based on. These are their pains, these are their gains. We actually do an avatar. They're about this age. They do this year's little story about them. And then we do their empathy map, which I'm not sure if you've heard of. An empathy map.

I was going to say helpful. Let's break that down really quick, if you don't mind.

Yes. So the great thing about the empathy map is it's really having empathy for just being human, right? Because there's what we feel, right? There's what we feel inside our body and then there's what we see out in the world and there's what we hear and trust, right? And then there's what we actually do. Now all those things might say, well, yeah, but that's all just me. I just do what I do. But if you break it down, you have your talking to really different parts of the person. So for example, you guys know that you should eat more vegetables, right? Like, you feel that you would be healthier if you ate more vegetables. But if you look in the quadrant, this is also done in a four quadrant mode. If you look over in the quadrant, lower right quadrant about what I do. So there's what I feel in the upper left, I feel I should eat more vegetables. But on the do column is I just went to in and out for lunch or wherever they went for lunch, right? So what they feel and they think is nothing the same as the actions that they're taking. It's like you guys, audience, right? Like, they, they know that they can't just be in perpetual launch mode. They know that they need to get consistent traffic. They know that. Like, I hope, I hope they know that they're listening to the podcast. So obviously.

So they know that. But are they doing what it takes or are they still stuck in perpetual launch mode, so their thoughts and feelings might not align with their actions? And then we also have to take into account what they see working in their space. Like, they see, well, hey, if I tried to switch to getting consistent traffic all the time, well, that would mean I would have to not do that launch next month. And if I don't do that launch next month, I see my bank account being empty. Right. So there's like what they see in their real life that might be the consequences of doing or not doing something. And then there's what they hear. Who are the people that they're listening to that they trust. Right. And when you look at at all four of those and their pain gain charts and you've got all this information harvested from the interviews of wording that they like and how different personalities absorb that wording or use that wording, now you've really got something solid to sit down and write copy. So I don't write copy without my avatar and empathy map for a brand open.

That's amazing. Well, for one, I'm going to credit you and Travis because both of you guys came, showed up with these massive systems that people could just totally swipe and use for themselves, which is fucking fabulous. Thank you to both of you.

You're welcome.

Yeah. So how does so you have copy? I'm just thinking of. So my brain's at like, okay, if we're looking at a funnel and then we also have, you know, so we have all this marketing, the stuff that's happening prior to a sale, but then after the sale you have all those fulfillment. This is where I know Matt and I have dropped the ball in some cases is, you know, there's so many elements like follow up or making sure that they're actually consuming the content. Making sure they're not stuck on a specific part that could totally jeopardize their success in the long run.

Yes.

So where should we start? Because I know, I just kind of want to make sure that maybe like the 80 20, because there's a lot here. And for us mere mortals like Matt and I, how do we make sure we're doing the best job without all consuming? I don't know where to start here. But do you start with copy or what part do you find that people drop the ball the most with? Let's start there.

Do you mean specifically on fulfillment? So once you've made a sale, where do you start after that?

I would say yeah, let's start there. Because if we're talking to customers like these 20, you said that's super important because that's going to back out all this data that you can use to attract more of your best customers.

Exactly.

So how do we make sure that that stays there?

So you could just start there. Like, you could just start there by having like if you, I don't know if you had any support on your Facebook Groups or maybe helps you with.

That kind of thing.

You could have this person interview them. Right. And you're going to have all this data. Now, remember I told you we asked them what was going on in your life before. Let's just tell me what was happening before you even thought about this brand. Just what was going on in your life? Right. That's before. And then we have discovery and then we have like trigger pulling. What made them pull the trigger? And then we have during. During their interaction with the brand. If you're looking to up your fulfillment, your stick rate and your closes on the back end, you want to start in that language. In the language that they gave you about.

About the fulfillment during. About what? During their interaction with you. What was life like? Right.

Yeah.

Because if you bring it back to like a health example, like for JJ Virgin or for Sarah Gottfried or even the Wentz is like anybody. Amy Myers, like all these people who are. They're asking these people to change their diet super radically, then one of the things that came up in the during was, well, shit, I got to eat this way, but my kids and my family are still eating the way I want to eat right in front of me. And that sucks. So how about how. What do you think it does for the stick rate for us to address that in the groups, in the forums, in the Facebook groups, in the emails? And we start giving them recipes that their whole family would actually like? Their whole family wouldn't even know that they're eating a particular one.

Got it. Yeah.

Now we're. Now we've got the stick rate coming up and we've got even better than the stick rate, you guys. You've got badass testimonials on the other side. Because the bottom line is if you make the sale, you make the money. But if you make a customer, like, you really bond with that person and you make them your customer, now you've got an LTV that's higher and you've got an actual relationship. So this is like the difference between a tender hookup up and getting married. Right? And I'm looking for brands to get married. Yeah, I don't, I don't write for Tinder brands. I write for let's get married.

This should be on the top of your website.

New slogan.

This is just cool, because I think fulfillment's one of those things in marketing that we, a lot of folks don't talk about. Maybe it just doesn't sound sexy, like, oh, fulfillment, follow up, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, not necessarily fulfillment. Like we always Always fulfill on the products. But there's been times where we've, we've had customers, we've sold products, we have customers who bought the product and then like the relationship is almost over after they've bought, right? They bought the course, they're in there and we're still out there. Like emailing the people that haven't bought and then the people that have bought kind of getting neglected a little bit.

And I'm lumping fulfillment in with follow ups.

I'll call you out on that if you don't mind, because I love y'.

All.

So you consider fulfillment. Let's say you consider fulfillment. The email that says, okay, here's your login, here's your link, here's your password. Like, click here to get in the Facebook group. Like, maybe you're considering, once they actually get inside your site, right? Once they get in, you're considering that fulfilled.

Well, I was considering the follow ups too. I don't know.

Okay, good. Because I think that that's not really fulfilled, right? That's like if I invited you guys to a party here at my house, right, and we're having a rager and there's a whole bunch of people here that you should not that need you, probably. And then conversely, that you need to know so you can learn from and keep growing, right? And as a hostess, I let you in the door and I just give you a cup and say, the bars over there, work it out. Like, I would never do that. You know, I would never do that. I would walk you around the room, I would say, hey, these guys are over here, Those people are over here, the hot chicks are over there, the guy's over here. Like, I would walk you around, give you the lay of the land and make sure that you could make the most out of this encounter. Whether you were here looking to grow or you were here looking to socialize or you're here looking to date, right? I would have a conversation with you as I walked you around the party to be like, hey, you know, what would tonight. What would make tonight perfect?

Yeah, yeah, no. And I would say we've gotten a lot better at that. But that was an issue that we used to have, was we used to not follow up with customers after they bought very much. Now we have this whole community element where somebody buys our course, they get access to the forum. Joe and I get in there in the forums every day and point people in the right direction and answer questions. And we're emailing all the customers once a week and you know, letting them know what's new in the forum and asking if they have any questions. We can improve the course. So it's definitely changed a lot, but I know it's something that we used to struggle with and I also know it's something that a lot of like info product digital marketers still just don't do well.

Yeah. And you know what? I encourage you guys to do something simple like this and just feel it out. Right. So they get in and you can send them an email, Right? Send an email to me. Hey, Joy, you just bought. Awesome. Congratulations. Welcome to community. We got two tracks around here. We got a track where we kick your ass and we send you an email every week telling you what we would do to get the most out of this course every week to really milk it, like just get everything out that you can and start making way more money really fast, in which case you can expect. And you just fill in the blank.

Right.

Two emails a week and we're going to kick your ass into using this shit. Right. Or maybe you prefer a little more relaxed style and you want to go at your own pace, in which case we'll just let you know about our live Q and A sessions and we'll send you a few things to guide you through the content you choose. And they pick one, they go, that's going to take them to the page. They'll give them the top content on that, they pick the other. And they're going to get maybe a slow track, right? A slow track, fast track checklist. And a slow track checklist. Checklist. But what has happened when they click one of those links is you guys have tagged them and now they get a different email series and there you go, they just chose for you. Am I on the competitive or spontaneous side or am I on the methodical, humanistic side? Do I want to go a little bit slower?

Got it. So, yeah, if we're dealing with four personalities, it's really two tracks that you could set up for them because those.

Are the dominant things. Exactly. And if you wanted to get all ninja about it, then you could actually ask some questions in those two divided series to see if you could split them up anymore. I don't want to get crazy with it, but you see where I'm at. It's like you could have a fulfillment sequence that starts to seg them out. Like you could even ask them. You know, you could, you could do anything. You could get all Ryan Levesque and serve, survey them or whatever. But at a minimum, I would try to get them. Because I'm the type of person who, I go through a course if I just paid fucking money for it. Like, I want homework and I want to know when, when it's due and when I should be, you know, like, I want an A plus in the course that I just bought. And if I had the chance for someone to kick my ass into getting an A plus, I would sign up every time. Now that I'm a competitive, I don't.

Think I've ever seen that, you know, in any products. And we've consumed many products, information products, and that's exactly what I was trying to get at the core. And I didn't just know, I didn't know how to approach it. But, like, you nailed it. The fact that you can customize this journey after the purchase point, that's where I've always felt I'm like, there's gotta be a better way than. Cause yeah, we do all this stuff that Matt said, which most don't even do, that we support like crazy. But we're like, but still there's personalities and there's this roadblock that we aren't gonna see.

Yeah.

And they'll probably just disappear.

And now it's so fun, right? Like, you could do it in your, you know, you could do it through your email system, Right. Or some people now, I think this is really interesting, artists kind of doing it right in the Facebook group, right. With bots, like instead of a bunch of emails, they'll be like, okay, hey, do you want to, do you want the fast track where we IM you every couple of days to make sure you've gotten through shit and you're getting shit done, or do you want to just kind of leave you alone and let you know when the live Q and A session's right?

Yeah, I like that a lot.

You've got two different Facebook bot campaigns, right? So there's lots of different. It doesn't matter what modality you're using. It matters that you, you just got this person in the door and you really want to show them around the party and make sure that they don't forget that it's bounce house in the backyard. Because, God, you want to make sure they get on the bounce house, right?

Yeah. I love these analogies.

You must be a copywriter.

Speaking of copy, when you do write your copy, do you have any templates or formulas that you like to follow? I know, I think David frey has a 12 point checklist and Perry Belcher has some sort of spin off of his own like 21 point checklist. Do you follow any sort of formulaic flow with your copy?

It depends. I totally do the formula for my copy but I more map that out in the full funnel flowchart. So basically I don't write for any brands that I don't think are doing amazing shit in the world because that's huge for me. I also need total clarity on the customer journey. So okay, here's my top of funnel content. Whether it's blog posts or email, YouTube or Facebook, whatever it is, my top of funnel content, what are we giving them and my end sale, what are we giving them? Right? Because I want to look at the whole entire journey through, you know, getting them deeper into more pieces of content and then I get them in an opt in and now I have an email series or a Facebook series, right. Going out to them and communicate. So I first thing that I map out is that of all the assets the brand has, what's my top of funnel content? I want to make sure they consume what lures am I taking them to. So anyways, it's like the 1315 backwards, right? So I'll chart out what are my 15 pieces of content to which three lures to one offer and I'll look at the emotional journey I want to take them on there. And what I do is I start with the communications, I start with what's going to be the competitives and the spontaneous because I know those people want to make a decision really faster. But I always have the methodicals and the humanistics in mind, right. So I'll take them through content knowing that they're going to need a of lot, lot more. Right. And so you could see it like oh your early sales, your mid, you know, and then your late sales. So the first thing that I chart out is that. But I think when it comes to meeting a super formula is when you're on the sales page, that's where I really think you have to come up with your own formula. Because if you're on the sales page now, if you've got a brand who's willing to give you, you know, multiple different sales pages for each personality type like wooh, that's really great for me. Right. Because I can speak to exactly what they need. But I do think that you need to come up.

With your architecture of persuasion. Right. Which I know you guys love to talk about books on here too. And I think that's one of the best books that you can pick up and read quickly. And it's Entertaining, Right. It's called the Architecture of Persuasion. Has a subtitle, I think it's how to Write well Constructed Sales Letters. And it's. It's by Mark Ford, but it's under the pen name Michael Masterson.

Right, okay.

And what's great about that book is that you totally learn, like, the fundamentals of copywriting for the purpose of selling, but you learn it through this extended metaphor. It's like, about this guy, he's sort of like an Indiana Jones kind of character. Super interesting professor type, you know, and he's trying to woo this lady. And so as they go through this conversation of him getting her, like, you see all these interesting things, like how he happens to leave the Time magazine out in the foyer when she comes in to take off her jacket where he's on the Time magazine cover or whatever. It might not have been Time magazine. So sorry if I'm misquoting, but it's that sort of thing where you're dropping little hints about how awesome your brand is and what you can do all throughout the relationship. And that's the architecture of persuasion from the very first piece of content all the way through down to the asset. You know, Like, I am almost embarrassed to admit that, right. Because it sounds like I'm super fucking manipulative. But the thing is, like, I want to make sure that if I'm, you know, offering something, yes, it's generous content and it is meant to be given away, but let's face it, like, it also has a point.

Yeah.

And that point is they're either on our boat of doing, like doing, in you guys case, they're on the boat of doing the marketing the way that you will teach them to do marketing, or they're on someone else's boat. Boat. And either way, for me, my, you know, I want to keep my cost of acquisition low. So, like, I want to. I want to. I want to have that whole architecture. I want people off of the boat really soon. And I want them on, you know, for as long as we're still on the same page and still on the same conversation. And the reason for that is just it makes my ad costs lower. And you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want to waste my money trying to drag people toward my offer. I don't want to do that. That's like swimming upstream.

Yep.

So, yeah, so for me, that's the sort of more. I more have a pattern for specific sales pages, but for me, architecting the entire conversation from top of funnel content to, you know, fulfillment sequence until I'm interviewing them, that they're a maven. That's the picture that I like to orchestrate before I write.

Just makes it so much easier, I imagine, when you actually get to writing and creating this content. I. I know when Travis lined out the whole architect or, you know, the system for creating content, it's just like, oh, well, duh. Now it just kind of flows out of you. And to have all this ammo around you, you're just like, take a little bit of this. Take a word here. You got the emotion you're playing with.

Exactly. And then when you map it out and you actually sit down to write those five posts, you're like. You get to be. It's weird. It's. What do they say? Like, structure will set you free.

It seems way overly structured. But the truth is that when you sit down in front of the computer, you know, everybody gets that, like, tofu brain when they. When they go to write their own copy. It's like, if you know what the whole adventure is, then, you know, like, oh, this post is the white rapids. You know, like, this one's gonna be such an emotionally bumpy ride, right? And then, okay, now we have to climb up the hill, and it's gonna be all this data, and it's like, kind of tough to get through, right? So if, you know, going into it, when you sit down to write the copy, then it gives you a ton of freedom. Okay, here I could to be super, super silly and super fun and super emotional. And then over here, okay, I got to pull back on that, and I got to get hardcore serious and make a case for this person about how they'll benefit from absorbing or using this content. So for me, it frees me up. If I have the 30,000 foot view, then it makes the getting into the minutia of creating the copy fun. And I love it. It's just a game, you know?

Do you have an issue writing in different personalities or do you have that? Is that just not an issue if you have all that information right in front of you?

Okay, that is a great question. And it is also a good segue into a gift that I have for your audience if they want it, and that is having a character diamond, because the one mistake. So I've given talks about doing this avatar and empathy map where you harvest the copy in this way, and you use the copy from this section for this and this, for this and this. Very systematic. And people are like, like, oh, that's Great. I'm totally gonna do that, right? And they go do that, but then they forget to be themselves. So in other words, they take so much from what the avatar and the empathy maps and pain gain charts show, and they kind of contort themselves to be what they think they need to be in order to sell, right? And that's not the point. The point is to be yourself, your own own self. Like me. Like I cuss, right? I don't want people doing copy with me who are gonna be offended every time I drop an F bomb, right? Like they're. That's. The client's gonna be stressed out. I'm gonna be stressed out. Like, forget it. Like, I like fun clients, you know, So I wouldn't want to do things. I wouldn't have top of funnel content where I wasn't, you know, just being myself. And if I'm in a video and I cuss or, you know, whatever, flip my hair too much or whatever, like, that's going to turn off people and I don't care.

Perfect.

Because I love my client. I fall in love with my clients. I just do. So if you use a character diamond, which you can get it@characTERdiamonds.com and again, for all you methodicals out there, it is a Google Slide sheet. So when you hit the opt in button, you're going to go to Google and you're going to have to say, put this in my drive. It says make a copy, and it makes a copy copy in your own drive. And then you can edit it. And it comes with a video that gives you lessons on how to do it, but that you have to be able. And especially if you're a copywriter. Because I'm writing in my voice if it's our copy here, right? But I'm writing in other people's voice. Like I. So I've just been writing in Dr. Sarah Gottfried's voice for the Metagenics Institute, right? And they have this beautiful mission to help doctors shift from this burnout crazy zone that they're in right now to personalized lifestyle medicine. I love it and I respect that woman so fucking much that writing in her voice would give me a nervous breakdown. Like, the pressure of it would give me a nervous breakdown if I didn't have a perfect character diamond for her. So that character diamond is where you look at and you say, okay, well, it's really helpful. I don't, you know, I don't know if you guys want to go into that. Also, because we covered so much, I feel like I'M hogging her.

But maybe. Let's do an overview. Might as well tease it a little bit so people actually go over there to character Diamond.

Totally, totally, totally. Okay, so what's interesting about this is we all think that we know ourselves so totally well, right? We think I talk like this. I sound like this, right? But then have you ever been in conversation with someone and walked away from the conversation, be like, I'm not sure they totally got what I was saying.

Sure.

Right. Just like, okay, maybe I use a word in a different way. He uses the word in a different way. He's religious. I'm not. You know, like, you know, everything can have a slightly different meaning. We're all human. We have totally different backgrounds, right? But if you take and chart out your personality, your. Your character diamond, then this also is on an axis, right? So at the top, you're going to have your credibility. At the bottom, you're going to have how interesting things that are entertaining about you. And then on the right side, you're going to be vulnerable. And on the left side, you need to create trust. Okay? So when you do this and all of these instructions are in the character diamond. So you take someone like, let's do Oprah Winfrey, for example, right? So at the top, about, you know, if we're wondering, like, okay, well, how does this woman have any credibility? Well, first of all, she's freaking one of the world's wealthiest women, right? So obviously she's doing some shit, right? She's. That. We know she's probably. She's got some cred from that. You know, she, like, gives away cars to the audience and, you know, she funds schools in Africa and she gives away knowledge for power. Like, that's what she's all about, right? She introduces us to all these amazing thought leaders. So all of those things about her are great for her credibility, right? But if we wanted to go down to the bottom of her character diamond, which is like, well, how is she entertaining? Well, like, wow, she came from nothing. She had no money. She was, like, abused like the color purple. She talks about how, like, oh, my God, so much of that character was, like, so real to my life. Just being fucking beat down by the right and she was forced to hustle to make it work. Now that's entertaining. Like, human to human. Like, it's amazing that she's the world's wealthiest woman, but it's entertaining. That bitch came from nothing and carved her way in the world. You see what I'm saying? So we have the credibility Things like up at the top, and then we have what's entertaining down at the bottom. And then on the right, left axis on the right, we have some vulnerability.

Vulnerability.

On the left, we have trust. So on the right, we see her vulnerability, right? We see it all the time. She's been on front cover of every magazine for everything from her weight loss, being super fat, being super thin, but hating life because she's eating a certain weight, right? So we see her being personal about her struggles with weights. We see her, you know, is she engaged to stem, and is she not engaged to stem? I don't know. It's on the top. It's broken. Like, we see all these things about her, right? So that belongs. Those things belong over on the vulnerability side of her. And then on. On the trust side, then we can look at her and say, like, okay, she's exposing, like, Eckhart Tolle to the world, Right? I mean, didn't she get, like, the world's largest group of meditators online all. I mean, Deepak might have. Deepak, yeah, after that. But I think her and Eckhart had, like, the biggest group meditation in the world.

And now it's her and Deepak.

Yeah, now it's her and Deepak. Okay. See what I'm saying? So she's, like, got all this powerful information. She introduces thought leaders. She inspires us to bring our best, right? She really stands for success in life. She is an uplifting woman. And so that would be her character diamond. So now I have up at the top, okay, she's wealthy. But down at the bottom, well, she was dirt poor. And over on the right, I have. Man, she has been devastated. But I have over on the left, she's completely uplifted. Now, can you see how that's a fully dimensioned human being? Totally, totally rich in every way, right? And then what I would do is I would layer these little boxes. Looks like a little text box, you know, like a talk box in a comic book, Right?

Yeah.

And I would watch hours and hours and hours of footage, right? So this is what I'll do with Sarah. I'll watch her YouTube lives. I'll watch her or her YouTube videos or Facebook lives. I read her books. I absorb everything that I can about her. Seeing her talk, seeing her lecture, right?

You just immerse.

Yeah, I immerse myself like a sponge. And you have to do this. If it's you guys, you have to listen back to your own podcasts.

That's the hardest thing for me to do.

It's so hard. It's so hard. I know. But then you have to listen, and you'll say, oh, my God, look how often I always use that phrase.

I've definitely noticed that. I'm sure our listeners know that more than myself. Matt tells me. He's like, listen to their fucking podcast, bro. When I do, it helps. It helps.

Yeah. So then you go in and you say, okay, well, what phrases do I have that make me credible? What phrases do I use that are really vulnerable? What phrases do I say that are entertaining? Right? Like, my students in conscious copy, converts had to tell me, like, joy, you always use the word amazeballs. Like, if their homework was so good, I would be like, this is amazeballs. Right? So that is a sample of something that would go down in my little talk box under entertainment. And then. And then. And if you're doing, you know, if you have people who are close to you, especially, like, people who've gone through my copy course, I'm also friends with them, then I would ask them, like, oh, what patterns of speech or things that I say or the way that I explain things make me any of these four quadrants, right? And they'll say, oh, well, the way you. You never make someone feel tech tarted. That's another term that came up on mine, right? Like, don't worry if you're feeling tech tarded, we're gonna. I'm gonna walk you through this, right? So that made me more trustworthy for them that, like, even if they were a little behind the curve on the tech side, they knew if they heard me say tech tarded, that I was gonna have a little sideline conversation if they wanted to stay on after the class, and we would close the gap. Right?

I got it.

So you have. Now you have your chart, and then you have your four talk boxes. And when I have all of that, then, no, I'm not scared to write in someone's voice.

That makes perfect sense now, because you are them, essentially.

Well, I love that character diamond in my head. As you were saying that, I was just picturing different celebrities in my head. And as I was picturing them, I'm like, I can actually see how they have very strong traits in all four of those quadrants.

Perfect. And that's it. It's so funny because in some ways, I feel like Travis has a harder job because tech changes so often, right? Like Facebook algorithm, Google algorithm. You know, today it's clickfunnels, tomorrow it's Kartra. Today it's who knows, right? Like this shit is changing. The platforms we're on, the rules, the regulations. Like, all that stuff changes a lot. You know what doesn't change?

The stuff you're doing.

Like being a real fucking human. Like this being really human with another human. And when I write every piece of copy, I don't think about thousands of people gathered around a computer, looking at a screen. I think about one person. Like I'm having a conversation with one person. Because although you might have a launch that, you know, makes a, you know, hundred thousand sales in one day, ultimately each one of those sales was made by one person.

And that's the hardest thing to think about unless you actually think that through. You're like, oh, yeah, it's just like making a video. One of the things in the very beginning, when I started, you know, long time ago making videos, Matt and I, it's like, don't say, hey, everybody, how you doing? It's like no one person watching your video at a time unless it's like some audience. Okay, got it. Yeah, but that's like cardinal rule that gets broken all the time, even by some of the best.

I still find myself doing that every once in a while on email copy. Like, what's up, everybody? And then. And then I always go back and go, wait, no.

Nope, wrong.

Yeah, exactly. You. You right. You could be cuddling with your kid right now and you're here reading with me.

Seriously? Yeah.

You're like, it's, it's. You know, we gotta honor their attention, we gotta honor their time. And so that's why having those conversations from the. It's really you speaking to one person at a time.

No, this is really fascinating. And this is. We've said it on many other shows, but like last year, Matt and I really dug. Dug into our personalities to understand how we communicate and just act throughout the world. And like, holy shit. That actually we learned so much just about ourselves and now we're talking about our customers. Deep diving using all your methods here. I'm like, just imagine what can open up from this now. It's like a whole different vein. Really cool.

So there's like, you want a little sip of water? And that was maybe a bit of a fire hose, but. But that's it, you know, that's the process, you know, that's how I think you do it. You get really clear on your audience and be able to address all of the different personality styles that might be in that audience. And then you get really clear on yourself. So that I would say you probably even should do that first, you know?

I think so.

So that based on your learnings, you don't contort yourself into who you think you need to be in order to sell.

Yeah. If you get out of that authentic nature and a lot of folks just don't know what that is yet. So go study yourself.

That'd be okay. And I can tell you one thing which, this is one pet peeve I have right now. You do not need to say the word authentic or vulnerable when you are being those things.

You don't need to say it because like, what, what are you being if you're not being that?

Like, yeah, that's just a red flag. You're like, do I trust anything you ever said?

Exactly.

Good point.

It's like people calling themselves influence influencers.

Look at me with my.

Because I say so.

I consider somebody an influencer when they have influence over a lot of people. Not because you just called yourself like, you go on Instagram and you see people with like 12 followers that are influencers somehow.

Exactly, exactly.

That's a whole other trend that's happening.

People saying, oh, I have this really vulnerable Facebook Live for you today. It makes me think, what the were all the other posts?

Was that a bunch of sugar coated crap for me? I mean, I don't know.

I'm gonna get really authentic with you. So what? You're not normally authentic.

Yeah.

Let's get real, huh?

You guys are so much fun.

Yeah. Well, this is, this is, this is how our more ideal interviews go.

I mean, they're all great. What are you talking about?

We've never had a bad interview.

Never.

Oh, never.

Bullshit.

All right, so yeah, this is amazing and I think we can go for a lot longer, but for the sake of every one of the listeners listening.

Well, at least the competitive than the spontaneous. Right. The humanistics are like, let's hang out.

It's true.

We can do that.

But all the humanistics, if they go get the character diamonds and they're going to get invited to come into a little Facebook group and they can ask whatever they want, they have questions about putting theirs together and, and I don't want to give you something and then not be able to support you in executing it. So anyone who wants to stay connected will be able to do that. So.

Very cool. And that's characterdiamond.com right?

That's correct. Yeah.

Cool. And how about Launcher? Do you want to.

Yeah, Launcher Co. That's where you can find, if you're looking like, to have your avatar and empathy maps done by Someone who's done it for the past 10 years since I started and failed myself and figured out, oh, if you really do not know how to connect with your people, you have no business putting your products out there. There.

I'll vouch for you as well. And we haven't worked in a professional manner like that, but Travis and yourself, you guys sat my wife down and I, both of us, and I saw some of this behind the scenes stuff that you guys do. That's why I brought the spreadsheets. And I've seen just the office and how you do everything. I'm like, holy shit, you're legit. You know your stuff. Obvious. You know it. But like, yeah, when I sat there, I was like, okay, so if anyone's actually serious and willing to invest because it's worth it, then definitely go launcher. Was it L A U N C H R co?

Exactly. Exactly.

Cool. Oh, and what was the book? One more time. I want to make sure that the.

The book. So, yeah, you know what? I think it's one of those books. I forget the term, but when it's been print so long that it's free. I think you can find it for free online. Mine, but you can definitely find a reprint of it on Amazon. But it's called the Architecture of Persuasion. The Architecture of Persuasion. How to write well Constructed Sales letters. And it's written. It says it's written by Michael Masterson, but for those of you who love copy and selling and all that, it's really written by Mark Ford. It's just a pen.

I don't think Mark Ford. Has Mark Ford ever put his own name on any of his books?

Well, it's weird, you know, I was just. I can't remember what I. Where I was someday. But, you know, obviously I've been. I've been tagged. I've been pixeled, right? And so I just got an ad for a course that was by him. And when I looked at the course, but, you know, I was like, oh, my God, this is like the summary of all his books. So it was not something I wanted, but I clicked on the page and saw a picture of him. I'd never seen a picture of him before. And I was like, oh, this is like seeing Yoda for the first time, you know?

Yeah, well, because I've read, like, I've read great leads and I've read Ready, Fire, Aim, which are all Michael Masterson and slash. Mark Ford.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. I don't know, but Cat's out of the bag. Anyways, I mean, thanks to the modern day oracle of Google, like, you just go to find his books and it says in the sub, you know, subtext like, oh, this is actually Mark Ford's out guy. The secret's out.

This has been super cool, Joy. Thank you very much for taking.

You just made this whole process. I can't wait to read the notes. I think they're going to be solid. Get them at the show notes. You'll love them. Thank you very much.

And reach out if you want slides on that stuff because obviously I have them from the courses. So I'm happy to make your show notes easier if you want.

Yeah, let's actually. We'll include those in the show notes, if you don't mind.

All right, perfect. I'll zip them over to you.

Thank you. Thank you. All right, Joy, have a great one. Stay dry. It just started lightning and reset really hard outside our window. That's why.

We all live in San Diego. For anyone who's listening to the show. And it's not the rain that's dangerous. It's the fact that San Diego people don't know how to drive in the rain. It's really dangerous.

Oh, it's the worst. Yeah. San Diego, we freak out if there's like a sprinkle.

We're like, ah, exactly.

So I will be not driving today.

Thank you so much.

See you, Joy. Thank you. Bye. All right. Thank you. And I hope you just enjoyed this episode you just listened to. Now, right now, before we sign off, I have a few things I would love for you to do. So, the very first thing is to go find our guest on Facebook and tell them that you loved their episode with us. That's going to help them just feel good about themselves, but also it's going to spread the word a little bit more for us. Go find them on Facebook. Everybody's on Facebook. And go say that you love their episode and maybe one cool thing that you learn there. The second thing is to go to itunes and subscribe to our podcast. Just look up Hustle and flowchart and hit the subscribe button. And the very last thing, the third thing is to leave us a review on itunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast and help us spread the word more. That's how more people are going to get this awesome nose, this, this cool podcast training and a whole bunch of other cool free training that we give out@evergreen profits.com. so that's about it. Go find them on Facebook. Go subscribe on itunes and leave us a review. You would be amazing if you did that. But you're always amazing. So thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.

You're awesome.