Justin Goff - Focusing On Emotional Triggers To Write The Best Copy

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float Shark with your boy, My boy, Matt Wolf. Hey, what's up, everyone? Welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast.

Who's everyone?

Everyone. Mark, Tina, Steve, Jeff.

Oh, they're all listening. But not the same time.

No, no, not necessarily at the same time. My name is Matt Wolf. I'm here with Joe. Not Joe Rogan.

Not Joe Rogan. No, Joe Rogan.

Joe Fear.

Joe Fear. Yeah, yeah. Birth certificates. It definitely says Joe Joseph, but Joe Fear.

Yeah, but it definitely does not say Joe Rogan.

No, no, no, we ain't got that going on. All right.

But maybe we'll interview him soon.

That's the plan.

Will we will actually.

That's. That's on our radar. Or be interviewed by him, I guess.

Either way, it's cool with me, man. So how you been doing?

I've been doing great since the last time we recorded an intro an hour ago.

Dude, that was like trying to cover up the fact that like, you know, this whole. I guess we make it obvious we batch these things, huh?

Yeah, I don't think it's a secret anymore.

Okay, fine.

What are we talking about today? Not Joe Rogan.

What are we talking about? You know you had the same conversation I did. Jesus, you're acting like you weren't there.

This is coming before the conversations.

That's true. Little inside out.

Yeah.

Record these after. Surprise, surprise.

No, this was a pretty wide ranging conversation.

I thoroughly enjoy this conversation. And it went deep, like immediately.

Immediately. Like right off the bat. We talked about totally psychedelics. We talked about therapy.

We talked about emotions tapping into your empathetic side. Especially us men. Some of us need that little like jolt of that.

Yeah.

You got some in. You know, you got emotions in you.

Yeah.

Let them out and then your business can improve.

Yeah.

In your life. And all these things that you think, like you're grasping on so strong to.

Yeah.

Making the money. Got to get whatever. Like me.

Yeah.

Stop white knuckling.

Stop white knuckling.

So we're talking to Justin Golf today. And this guy is super cool and.

He'S got one of the most interesting approaches to email marketing that I've seen. You actually have to apply to be on his email list.

Justin123.com.

Yeah, if you go to justin123.com you can apply to be on his email list. But you know, he's only keeping a very small, high level email list and just sharing his cool thoughts from the day. And the way he sort of promoted his Email list and created this email list. I was blown away. We talk about it, he kind of covers it and why he did it that way and how it sort of evolved. But I was pretty much blown away by that sort of process and this sort of social proof of just getting on an email list that you have to apply to be on and you know, and I have to imagine his email list is just responsive as shit.

Yeah. I just love the persuasive. And we were talking about this prior to recording. Here is the fact that Justin has sold a business that he took to $23 million in sales. And we'll get into that story in the podcast. So he, you know, he went through a lot of mental work, inner work and all that. And we'll dig into that. That's kind of how we start this thing. So no need to even, you know, say that anymore. But the fact that he has an email list that he wants to give his marketing thoughts out to and it's a small group, he said it's like 900 something people.

Yeah.

And, and you know, Justin's. If you think about a perspective of someone that sold the business, a business and doesn't really need the money and took time off to really figure out like what's important in life and business and people and him and all that, like that's an email list I want to be on and I don't want to be on many email lists. So like the fact that there is an application is even better. It's so cool. But you know, the value in those emails are going to be way better than some person trying to just hawk something every day.

Yeah.

And just push, push, push, you know.

Yeah. So we're going to talk a little about his email. We're going to talk about the, the sort of emotional elements of running a business and writing copy. And we also do dive deep on some, some copy elements and how to work these sort of emotional angles and these emotional triggers into writing your copy. And I think that was one of the areas where I got some of the biggest aha's from this conversation is, you know, the different niches and what sort of emotions you need to touch on based on the niche that you're talking to. I thought that was just pure gold when he started getting into that stuff.

Yeah. Because it's, it's, it's, it's.

Yeah.

Most copywriters and folks like us, he even said like, oh yeah. And he didn't say us, we are but like CB level marketers are copywriters specifically, there's a reason why he said that, and we'll get into it, but he really lays out how he triggers these certain emotions in people that they might not know is in them or they're not publicly saying. And he gives us a process of how to just do that. And you can apply that once you actually know who your audience is.

Yeah.

And how to be compliant, too, to get cold traffic. Because he's a cold traffic ninja. Which you know the reason, like, we do a lot more of the warm traffic stuff. After you listen to a show, you get retargeted. He's like. He's getting the conversions rocking from Touch one, from a Google or Facebook ad. Really cool.

For sure. And I mean, this episode is just filled with gold nuggets. And we did take notes on this one. Like, we take notes on all of our.

We always do that, right?

We do that. Yeah. In fact, if you go to hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m P. That's the easy link to remember to go get the notes for this one. But you do have to be quick because the notes do get overwritten by future episodes and things like that. So make sure you go and grab those notes pretty quickly after this episode comes out, and we'll hook you up for free. If you wait on them, they won't be free. You got to be an EPIC member to get them beyond that little free window. And EPIC stands for Evergreen Profits Insider Club.

That's right.

That's our new rebranding.

We want to be EPIC with you. Yes. Thank you, Brad Costanzo, for the. The motivation. Or not the motivation. The.

Idea. I can't even. Yeah, I guess. Idea. I was thinking of another word, but yes. Idea of the acronym.

BRAD gave us that acronym. Thank you, Brad.

EPIC acronym.

Brad's no Joe Rogan, but we do appreciate the.

He has a podcast, though, and it's really good, too.

Yeah, it's no Joe Rogan, though. What's his podcast?

Well, it's not Joe Rogan.

It's not Joe Rogan.

He could Google and figure that out.

Yeah.

He's had enough shout outs on this show. I.

Yeah. So hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m P. Get them free notes. Be quick. And you know, they do go away in a vault. You gotta. In the EPIC vault, there is a way to join and be an EPIC member. And guess what? It's like Dirt cheap.

Yeah.

So don't be T rexing us.

Go be epic.

Go be epic. Reach some Pockets. It's cool. It's worth it. I guarantee it. And if you don't think it's worth it, then please let us know. Not much more to that, but yeah.

I mean, you can let us know. We probably won't respond, but.

No, I mean, you're gonna get a response. Maybe, maybe not. We'll read it. Yes, Someone will read it.

Someone will read it.

Called the bucket that we're like, nope, not for us.

Yeah, not us.

Bucket. Oh, man.

We'll hear about it.

Well, yes. So don't worry. Your voices will be heard. Just might not be responded to.

Yep, yep. Hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m p be epic.

And this chair is very squeaky. Hear that chair? Yeah.

The ones are freaking wiggly as hell.

Barely barely shifting in my chair.

And he goes, stop being so wiggly.

Okay, I'll stop being human.

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Yeah. Let's go talk to Justin Goff. Bam.

Hey, Justin. Welcome to the show, man.

Hey, guys. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I think, actually I'm on your email list and I think we have, like, A whole bunch of mutual friends that I think I've noticed through your email list. I know you've mentioned Dave Sinek and A.J. roberts is actually basically my neighbor. He lives like maybe four blocks from me.

He's a mastermind buddy of ours.

Yeah, good guy. A lot of cool mutual connections. So glad to finally have you on and chat with you about what you're up to.

Yeah, I really appreciate you guys having.

Me for sure, man. Yeah. And talk about the email thing actually, because Matt, when you told me about Justin's email, he was like, oh, you have to pretty much apply to be on the list.

Which I was, oh yeah, I thought that was genius. So yeah, the way I first discovered you was I'm in some Facebook group. I don't remember what Facebook group it is at this point, but somebody posted like, hey, you have to get on Justin Goff's list. He's got this application. You got to go through the application to be able to get on the list. And so I went and filled out the application and it had questions like you promised to like open the emails and read them every day and, and all sorts of cool stuff. And I just thought that was, was so awesome. And then I started reading the comments below that post and it had like a whole bunch of buddies. Like, I think Kurt Molly responded on it and like Kevin Nation was on it and like AJ Roberts was on him. Like, holy shit, if these dudes are on the list, I gotta be on this frickin list.

Yeah, it's pretty funny because the reason. So I used to own a supplement company. I ran that for about four years. I sold it in 2017 after building that to about a $23 million business. And then I took a year off. And then right when I kind of got the itch to get going again, I had always wanted to just like talk about marketing every single day. I was going to start a blog or I was going to start posting stuff on Facebook. And then I was like, eh, I'd rather just do an email. So I literally reached out to about 100, 150 guys that I know, people I've worked with, people that knew me very well. And I was just like, hey, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to write this daily email, just going to be for a small group of people. If you want to be on the list, let me know. And they all responded back. They were like, yeah. So it started as this pretty organic thing where I just wanted to write and I wrote every Day. And then after a while, people started. I started getting emails from people who weren't on the list, who were like, hey, Craig Clemons forwarded this to me. How do I get on your list? And I was like, well, I was like, well, really, there was no way to get on it. I was like, well, you kind of got to be invited by me. And I actually don't have anything set up, but I can just add you. And then I started thinking, I was like, well, how about I just extend that a little bit where you can either be invited by me or you can apply to be on the list. So that's kind of how that got set up. And yeah, I mean, my email list compared to most people is extremely small, but I purposely keep it that way. It's only about 920 people, but it's 920 very high quality, targeted people. I love it. It's the type of people I want to talk to. It's high level people doing serious volume. It's really good copywriters, it's really good media buyers. So that's kind of the whole idea behind it.

I love that.

I love that, like, mental space too. After selling a company, I would just imagine your mental space at that point. Like you said, you just want to write. You just want to talk about marketing and put it out there to the world, talk to the right people. Did it change your thinking when you're creating content like this doesn't need to drive to a sale or, you know, it's just like, no, I want to put the thoughts out there.

Yeah. And you actually hit on a great point there. So when I sold my business, I was ready to jump back in literally the next day, building, building the next business. And I ended up talking to a couple guys who had sold their businesses before. It was about four different people. And the common thread among all four of them was I'm either super grateful for the time I took off or I wish I would have took more time off. I was like, wow, that really stood out to me. I was like, okay, these guys are all smarter than I am. Stop trying to figure this out on your own. Just listen to them. So against my own.

It'S my own will, I literally stopped doing anything and it was super fucking hard. Yeah, it took me a good, a good six weeks to actually, I, like, I just kept waking up every morning. I'd sit in front of the computer for three hours and I'm like, oh, I know I'm supposed to be here.

It took me a Good. Six weeks, maybe eight weeks to not feel guilty about not working.

Yeah.

And me kind of realizing the addiction I had to work was so much stronger than I ever would have thought. And I finally got to a point where I got comfortable, where I woke up a couple hours later. I took a long time to make breakfast. Me and my dog went to the dog park for an hour and a half. I just did things that I never really had time to enjoy before.

Which was amazing. Like, it was a good. It was a good year for me to. To take that time off. And one of the biggest things I kind of learned from that was, like I said, the. The addiction to work was so oblivious to me until I didn't have to do it.

Yeah.

I think that's something a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with big time.

Oh, 100%. I could totally relate. I sold a business back in 2015 and definitely didn't have to work for a while. But I'm. I unlike you, I think the very next day after I sold the business, I was already working on what was next. I don't. I never took a break. And we've actually sold a couple businesses since then, and I've never a break afterwards.

So it's just so ingrained in us, you know, as entrepreneurs, it's like the squirrely brain. We want to, like, fix things or put things out there, solve problems. And. And yeah, it's good for you, man. Taking that time off. And was it mainly just, like, thinking and just kind of introspective work and just spending some time away?

So, interestingly that you asked that. So I had a real.

Kind of rock bottom experience after I sold my business in the sense that I had been chasing this for so long. And one of my biggest goals was to make a bunch of money. And I got this huge payday on my exit. And I'm sitting there looking at my bank account the day after I get this big wire transfer, and I realized I was just as miserable as I was the day before.

Wow.

And that was a kind of harsh reality because I was like, this is this thing I've been chasing for 14, 15 years. I finally got it. And this idea the whole time, kind of unconsciously that I was going after that this was going to, like, fill the hole in my soul, and this was gonna make me feel like I was good enough or this is what gonna give me the recognition and approval that I kind of had always been looking for. And it didn't.

It was a pretty. Pretty tough thing to go through. So a Lot of what I did that year actually was going through lots of personal development, lots of therapy, did a bunch of Ayahuasca, lsd, all kinds of stuff like that. Trying to figure out why I wasn't happy. And that was really a huge year for me in terms of getting to the root of why I was chasing this money and what I was trying to fulfill with it and what I was trying to kind of patch up and cover up with it.

Did you. Were you able to figure out. And we don't have to talk about details, obviously, but were you able to actually get to. Because we've done plant medicines, all that stuff too. And it's great, man, because you unlock some layers that you had no fucking clue we're there. Did you finally find that through that process and maybe things like meditation and stuff like that?

Yeah. So, I mean, the biggest one for me was the therapist I worked with. He kind of calls himself more of a coach than a therapist. But after digging in with him for. I still work with him now. So it's been about a year and a half that we started that we've been working together. That is kind of where it dawned on me that he kind of helped me see that literally everything in my life that I was doing was, was for approval. It all came from this position of I grew up in a family where I basically had the mom who was an absolute, like, perfectionist, and nothing I ever did was good enough. So as that little kid, I was just chasing her approval over and over and over again. No matter what I did, I never got it. And if you're not really an introspective type person or if you've never done, like, therapy, that might sound kind of crazy. But when you realize that kind of feeling sticks with. I'm 35 years old now and that feeling is still with me that I was facing for so, so long. And it basically just became this game of different things. Like, I tried to fulfill it with business and money. That didn't work. I tried to fulfill it with women. That didn't work. I tried to fulfill it with kind of like mentoring and helping others. And while that was, like, helpful, I didn't even realize I was doing it for that reason. I was doing it because I had guys underneath me who were like, looking up to me and giving me all this approval and recognition. So unbeknownst to me, that's really the deeper reason I was doing it. So, yeah, a lot of shit like that kind of came up and it was very eye opening. To me, how this kind of single thing really.

Kind of controlled my whole life to an extent.

I could relate to a lot of the whole comparison thing, or seeking approval or. Yeah, like, my. It was weird as a kid, I was just like, you know, because my mom's always had a really good job, she's not an entrepreneur. So I fought that battle. You know, it's like, oh, no. Go to college. Do the corporate thing. I'm like, no. But I always had my brain. I'm like, I'm going to make more money than you. Like, I'm like, I don't know why I did that as a kid. Like, I was young and I don't know. And she was like, go for it. But at the same time, it was like a corporate thing, but it was a very comparison thing, and I think it always stuck with me. So, as I've noticed recently, and Matt and I, we talk about this stuff all the time. So this is great. And this is the stuff that we actually had Mike Dillard on the show somewhere recently. It just went live.

Well, the day we're recording, this is also the day the Dillard episode went live.

And this was a huge topic because he had to take some time off, and he did a lot of plant medicines. He talked about on the show and talked about the stress of just an entrepreneur and how you feel so alone a lot of times, and all these things percolate up and you don't know what's happening until, like, shit hits the fan and your head basically explodes or something happens, you know? So it's common.

Yeah. I mean, you see it in all pretty successful entrepreneurs, at least most of the ones I know, they hit a spot in their 30s or 40s where they just absolutely run out of gas. And it's usually because you're str. You're almost the guy, my coach, therapist, his name's Brent, he calls it white knuckling it. You're basically trying to overcome all of these emotional blocks that you have from childhood and from growing up, and you're just kind of white knuckling it and just bursting through the wall on them. And so you have to keep doing that over and over and over and over again, and at some point you just burn out. And that's why you see a lot of entrepreneurs where it's like, everything is just more, more, more, more. There's no. There's no satisfaction anywhere. One of the biggest things I've kind of realized in the last year is, like.

I have a really good life as it is now. And I'm pretty damn happy with how my life is. Like, if I tried to really, really push myself to the point where I made an extra million dollars this year, it's really not going to change my life one bit.

And that's something I would have never been able to accept before because I would have been like, in this mind frame that, like, no, I gotta get all the money, like, while it's there.

Yeah.

And now I'm just a little more comfortable with, okay, if I make this much amount of money each year and I'm doing this, that makes me happy and I'm living kind of the lifestyle that I want. Like, I can't really complain about that. I love doing that. I don't have the need anymore to work 70 hours a week just to make an extra 500 grand a year or just to do something else.

Yeah, yeah, we actually talked to. It's interesting because all these conversations are linking into what he had James Altucher on the show and he walked us through an exercise, pretty much what you're saying. He's like, no, no, think of like living yourself, your life as a billionaire. Think of all the things that you would do if you had a billion dollars. Then you start doing the math and, you know, it depends on where you live. But he's like, you don't need to make that much money to actually live that amazing life that you think you are shooting for with the money side of things. And yeah, it's. It's powerful, man.

Yeah, I 100% agree with that. There's very few things. Like, I'm not a huge fan of flying, so if I was a billionaire, I'd fly private. But that's about like, one of the few things that I would probably change. Like, I think about it every day. I'm like, there's not a whole lot I would change.

That's great. I love to have other people hear that. And I don't know if how have you been able to actually work with folks who might be chasing that still? I don't know, maybe some of your clients or friends are there ways that you've seen resonate the most? Because stories. I'm sure we've heard these kind of stories, but it's almost like you got to be in the trenches sometime to feel the pain and be like, shit, I am chasing the money, or whatever this might be. Have you seen some, like, ways that people can get past it without having to go down that rabbit hole?

Yeah, I mean, the first step is just Being aware of it, because most people, especially me, like, for so many years, I was just completely, like I said, I was completely naive to it. I was just kind of doing my thing and pushing and grinding and grinding because that's what I thought entrepreneurs are supposed to do. And then, like I said, I hit that point where I was realized I wasn't happy and realized I'd went down this rabbit hole for so many years and I reached the end goal, but it didn't fulfill me whatsoever. And I had to dig into that. But I mean, a lot of people just literally don't. And me too. Up until that point, I had never really dug in and tried to figure out why I was doing what I was doing.

Yeah. Awareness, man, it's huge.

Yeah. So between like the sort of psychedelic experiences and like the therapy, you think, you think therapy has been the, the beneficial.

Yeah, it was for me.

Mostly. I was one of those guys who, and this tends to happen with a lot of men. I was so cut off from my emotions to the point that Brent, the guy I work with, literally said, I don't know how the hell you became such a good copywriter because you have no idea what an emotion even.

Empathy.

Nah. Yeah, yeah. He's like, you literally, like had no sense of what emotions were, so you just pictured what they were onto other people. He's like, somehow you're good enough at doing that to be successful. He's like. Which is frankly just shocking.

But yeah, I mean, for me, like I said, a lot of it, if you grew up in like a healthy household, emotionally healthy household, that's one of the things that was eye opening to me because, like, I was so naive to that. Like, I grew up what I thought was a pretty normal blue collar, middle class upbringing. I grew up in a small town in Ohio and.

I just assumed my life from the outside looked kind of normal. And then when we kind of dug into everything, I realized on like the emotional level how fucked up it actually was. And kind of now just being older and going through that, learning more about it, I've realized I just kind of be a little more realistic about it. Instead of like having that view of like, oh, here's your parents and kind of like here's you and you looking up and idolizing your parents like you do when you're a kid, getting out of that mind frame for me and kind of being more realistic about how my parents raised me and how they were as parents, instead of just seeing them as, like I said, putting them up on this Pedestal has been hugely transformational for me.

I like that because at the end of the day, you start doing that introspective work and you're like, man, we're all just trying to figure out our shit. No one has it figured out, but we're just. It's a work in progress. So the parents are no better than us really, if you think about it.

Well, it's so interesting because some of the most successful people we know have. They've seeked out that sort of thing through either therapy or like psychedelics use or things like that. I've never done therapy, but I've done a handful of psychedelics in the past and I've pretty much come through the same conclusions that I think you got to through therapy. So I think, you know, kind of what I'm getting at here is one of the things that I think probably holds a lot of entrepreneurs back back is this stuff that they don't know. That they don't know.

Yeah. Probably one of the most eye opening things that I've kind of realized after digging into this for a year and a half was realizing that these little things or these things that you think were little things that happen in your childhood affect every single thing in your business. Like literally the way your family operated when you were younger affects how you will set up your business.

In ways that you're so oblivious to and like, who you will work with. So I'll give you one example. I had a history of being a really hard person to work with because I was an absolute drill sergeant on like assistants and people who are working with me. And I would just like blow up on them and rage and all that. Well, after about six months of therapy, I realized I was literally all I was doing was replaying what my mom did to me.

Mm.

It was literally the exact same thing. The way she was super hard on me and the way she was like an absolute perfectionist and the way she would blow up and rage on me. I literally did the exact same thing to my assistants, to people who I was working with. And I had no, no idea I was doing that. And I had no way of like controlling it. I had no idea, like, what to do. I'll give you another example. I have two guys that mentor for copywriting. And when I first started mentoring them, when I would go over kind of their emails that they were writing, I would give them feedback on them. And the feedback all the time, I would basically just point out the stuff that they needed to change and the stuff that was Wrong with it. It never dawned on me once that I was not pointing out the stuff they were doing. Good. Yeah. That's crazy to me. In my head, I was like, well, obviously they know that part that they wrote. If I didn't say anything, that was good. And then one of them said something. One time when I actually pointed out, I was like, oh, you did a really good job on these two paragraphs. And he was like, it completely changed the way he looked at it. And he, like, said something to me. He's like, oh, my God. He's like, you actually said something nice about my.

Well, it's like the whole. What the love languages. It's like words of affirmation. Like, that's probably what just resonated with that guy.

Well, not even. Yeah, not even that. But it's just to the point where if you're constantly just criticizing someone over and over and over again and saying, you're doing this wrong, you're doing this wrong, you're doing this wrong. And never pointing out when they're doing anything right, like, they feel like they're doing everything fucking wrong. And that was a. That was a huge lesson for me, too. And like I said, going back to the shit that happens in your childhood and you're just repeating it. That's exactly how my mom is with me. It was literally just replaying these. These things that happened when I was younger, and now they're just playing out in business over and over again and they're hurting me business wise.

Totally. Yeah. I mean, I can. I can relate to that with my dad and how that goes to more relationships. I feel like where it comes out more and people I trust is. Yeah, a little bit more of the perfectionists are calling out the faults. And yeah, with Before, I was aware of that. I was like, oh, man, I get to see how I could look like an asshole to certain people, but great to others. Like, why is there this change that's happening? And again, yeah, it's all passed down from parents and programming. It's crazy, man. But how that affects business, like you were saying, I love the whole feedback, giving feedback. I want to go back to the whole empathy and copywriting. Has that changed your copywriting approach now that you've done all the therapy and all this kind of inner work?

Yeah, completely different. And it's something I actually work with copywriters on now because it was such a breakthrough for me, is the more in touch you are with your own emotions, the better you're going to be able to Write emotional copy. And this was something I remember. Chris Hadad, who is a really, really good copywriter, a couple years ago, looked at a couple pieces I wrote. They were doing well, and he was like, just, like, emotionally, he's like, these are super, super flat. He's like, there's, like, no emotion. And Chris is, like, really known for writing super, highly emotional copy.

And he mentioned it, and he actually made a comment. He's like, maybe there is something going on with you that you're not connected to those parts of your emotions. And I remember at the time just kind of dismissing it and not thinking anything of it. But he was actually 100% right, because the more you're in touch with your own emotions, the more in touch you are, that you know what anger feels like, that you know what fear feels like, that you know what shame feels like. You can dive into that with the copy. And the reality is that more than anything, more than headlines, more than anything, how you structure your copy is what makes really good copy great.

Yeah.

You know, one email that you sent that I really liked, and it resonated a lot with me. I wanted to bring it. I made a note that I actually want to bring it up on the show was your. You had an email about who influences your email marketing. And you said, you know, I do read Ben Settle, and I do read Andre Chaperone, but really, most of my biggest. My biggest influence is Howard Stern. And I love that, because Joe and I are both huge fans of Howard Stern. We actually think he's probably the best interviewer out right now. But can you kind of speak into that a little bit? Because I think it's very tied into what we're talking about here.

Yeah. So when I was in high school, I had a buddy who was, like, this huge Howard Stern fan. And every day he'd come in and tell me all about him and tell me about the show, and I had never listened to him, didn't care. And then I remember this is about. I didn't get into him until later, maybe five or six years ago, I was flipping through Sirius on my car. I think I was on a long drive, and I randomly listened to a show of his, and I wound up listening to the whole show. And probably about two days later, I listened to another one, and I was just hooked. And that quickly, and not to the point where I don't drive anywhere now where I'm not listening to Howard Stern. It's like the only damn thing I listen to. And what. What he does.

It's Very. It'd be very easy to dismiss what he does as this kind of vulgar guy talking about sex and boobs and stuff like that, because what he really does is he lets you inside of his world, and he opens up and he's vulnerable, and you get to know him on a level that you really don't get to know a lot of people, and that's really what sucks you in. And then he's amazing at meshing that with the entertainment of the drama that's going on in their office.

Yeah, that's true.

To the point that he actually mentioned that one time on a show. And I had always known this because I just kind of from the info product business, this is, like, what it's all about. But he mentioned it. One of the guys on Howard Stern JD who works in the back, basically got engaged, and he announced it on Twitter before, like, announcing it on the show, and Howard, like, just ripped him for, like, he was like, why the hell would you announce it on Twitter? Like, we could have had a huge segment on the show. And, like, there was a point in the conversation where Howard was like, he's like, I don't know if you understand this, but he's like, this entire show is basically like a reality show. He's like, what the fans really want is they want to see inside of our office and see the drama and see what's going on behind the scenes. Like, that's what they fucking want. When he said that, I was like, he is absolutely right. It's the reason we watch reality TV shows. It's the reason why when we write emails about personal stuff going on in our Life, you get 20 times the response than when you write a great email. That's about, like, some amazing new, I don't know, conversion boost. Like, people really just kind of want to see inside your life and kind of be a lawyer, dude.

We do the same thing with our podcast because we got the. You know, we were doing interviews primarily, and folks were like, dude, like, why not just the two of you guys? Like, let us know what you guys are thinking. Show us into your office, essentially, in our brains. And now we have these therapy sessions, and we just let fricking everything out. We talk about all the bullshit, all the stresses, the good as well. But that is, like, the inside look. And like you said, that's where we get the responses in our support desk. Facebook's blowing up. People are sharing it. They're like, yeah, this is what it's all about, man.

Yeah, we literally do a Once a month episode called Therapy Sessions. And it's just Joe and I just, like, literally talking about, like, the emotional shit that's going on in our lives, the stuff that's going on in the business. Some of the best conversations we've had with past guests, but it's just like, we just kind of take them behind the scenes and open up the brains a little bit. So I love that. And I feel like with this episode, and the reason I brought that up is we've kind of, you know, we just drove straight to the deep end on just like, let's just put it all out there.

Love it. We were joking. Yeah. We're like, yeah. People that do this work, I feel like, should get a. And I noticed you had a tattoo on your arm. You have a tattoo feather. But it's like, people need to get, like, a patch or, like, a tattoo. Really?

Yeah.

They get it. You can talk deep, like, and there's not gonna be any bullshit or filters or whatever. It's just cool. It's real talk.

The interesting thing is, like, a lot of people, especially in, like, the guru space, are afraid to do that. They try to put on the Persona of being perfect. And the reality is that's actually the worst way to get people to follow you, because nobody can relate with that. Like, this stuff I share on my email list when I talk about.

I wrote an email a couple months ago about. I was really struggling with my writing at the time. Like, I couldn't come up with ideas. Like, I just. Everything was, like, falling flat. I felt like. I felt like it was just, like, shitty copy that I was putting out. And the response I got from all the copywriters on my list were just like, a. They were shocked. They're like, I can't believe someone who's at your success level feels like this. And the second part was this makes me feel 100 times better about myself because I'm going through the same shit.

Yep.

I mean, that.

That.

The reality is that's what, like, people bond to. Like, people bond to your flaws and your rough edges. They don't bond to the perfect person.

Oh, that's so interesting. It's so true, because I actually. I made a post on Facebook, this has been six months ago, about how I was suffering from severe anxiety. Like, I did not like, leaving my house and going into social situations. And one time we even went to a networking event, and it got so bad that I actually fainted in the middle of the thing because my anxiety just built up so much. And I actually wrote this big long post about it on Facebook and I didn't really get much public comments of people going, oh, I'm going through the same thing, or things like that. But I got probably 25PMs on Facebook from people going, I'm going through the same thing. And I'm like, well, why are you saying it here and not over on this post? Nobody wanted to. To share it, but I just saw how instantly, just by posting that thing, how many people sort of bonded and reached out to me, even though they weren't willing to publicly state that they were having those issues too.

Yeah, I mean, it's the shit that we're all going through that nobody talks about. And then when you talk about it, people instantly bond onto it. Just exactly like you said with your story.

Yeah. And that's. We're at a war room, I don't know, a few months ago, and Perry Belcher was on stage and basically was saying like, dude, everybody needs to put their flaws out on social media, emails, wherever. It's the relatability. And it's just kind of. It's kind of crazy to think that we have to tell ourselves to do that. Or you're like, this is how you relate to people. We all fall behind this computer, this monitor or whatever and think like, this is the world. It's like, no, the Internet's a tool. You're people, you're talking to people. It's just a communication medium.

Yeah, I agree.

That's crazy. Yeah, interesting. So what, like, now you said you sold the company, you went through all that, you're. What are you doing? Like, what's the day to day look like for you now?

So right now I have a couple products, so I have a couple coaching programs. My main one is a program called Copy Accelerator that I run. Was Stefan Georgi. If you're not familiar with Stephanie's probably, I would say, in my eyes, the number one copywriter in the world right now. I think him and Craig Clemons are probably neck and neck. But anyways, Stefan and I run that program where we teach people copy. We teach them funnels, we break down offers that are working, and then we give people feedback on their offers.

That takes up most of my time. I'm launching a few new products later in the year. But, yeah, the Copy Accelerator is kind of my main thing right now.

Nice. So it just seems like, yeah, you're filtering out, you're working with the right people, you can give this feedback that you've kind of learned and Honed, sharpen the tools throughout the years it seems like.

Yeah, yeah, we really, it's interesting, we started it out and we targeted two different kinds of people. We targeted business owners that, that we knew already that who have copywriters on their team or freelance writers. And a lot of them have paid to put their own writers into the program. And then Stefan and I train them for them, which has been great for them. And then the other half is more like freelance copywriters or the business owner who kind of still writes his own copy. So that's kind of who's in the group. But yeah, it's been pretty interesting because we work with really high level businesses. So like there's Agora Financial and Dan Locke's team and Paleohacks and like it's all serious direct response businesses. But I mean we get a really good view because everybody shares stuff and we have, like I said, I don't know, 60, 70 some people in there right now and you get to see like what's working for the best of the best and health and finance and dating and biz op.

Nice.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing.

Yeah. On the bio you mentioned that you're, you know, you're best known for converting offers on cold traffic. So I'm curious what this is probably a very loaded question, probably a deep topic, but what sort of different things do you have to consider when you're working with cold traffic versus warmer traffic? Maybe like your mailing list traffic is. Let's consider that like warm traffic where cold traffic would be off of Google search ads or maybe an interest target on Facebook as opposed to retargeting.

Yeah. So I mean, warm traffic, you can get away with being a C plus or B minus marketer and making it convert. So if you're mailing an offer to your house list, like you can get away with pretty basic stuff and still get 3,4% conversion rate. Cold traffic, you have to be completely on your game in more ways than that. You have to have. There's kind of like a four legged stool that I look at when it comes to that. So there's the actual offer and how appealing the offer is. There's the copy or I mean then there's the ads. So a lot of people actually don't realize this. Even super smart people where everything else will be dialed in, then it stops working and they actually think they need to redo the whole sales page. In reality it's like just the ads have kind of burned out and you just need to redo Those. So that's the second one. The third one is the actual copy on the sales page. And the fourth one would be the upsells. And the majority of the really smart businesses that I work with, the upsells, is where they're leaving the most money on the table.

And in today's kind of cutthroat world, in terms of cold traffic, your upsells have to be so dialed in to make an offer work on cold traffic. Whereas like even two years ago you could get away with pretty mediocre and decent stuff now. Now it's pretty much all your upsells, all your downsells. Any type of back end offer you have on the confirmation, like all that stuff has to be pretty dialed into to get something ramped up on cold traffic.

Nice. Yeah, that's interesting because a lot of people aren't thinking of the whole cold traffic element. I don't think we've really had people on here talking about specifically cold traffic.

And how I would consider ourselves probably like that C B minor marketers, because we're really good at converting our warm traffic, but not great at converting cold traffic.

Total honesty. That's how it is. And I think that's most listening too.

Yeah. So I mean, sort of our philosophy, the way we do it is we drive cold traffic just straight to content, knowing that we're not the greatest at converting cold traffic. So we just drive them to content and then ideally they're either opting in. And if they're not opting in, they're getting on our retargeting list so they're slightly more warmed up. And then we're putting offers in front of people to sort of compensate for the fact that we know we aren't very good at converting cold traffic.

Yeah, it's all content forward. That's what the podcast serves as. As well, you know, a big content player.

I think that's the way a lot of things are going too. I mean, if you look at.

I'm good friends with Dan Locke and I look at what like Dan does. If someone's watching Dan's stuff on Facebook and YouTube or listening to his podcast for five months, like, just like you said, making that sale is a hundred times easier than if they just click on your cold Facebook ad. And I think guys like him and Frank Curran, a lot of people are really, really pushing this a lot harder.

It's definitely the way things are going and I see a lot more people kind of diving into it now. So I definitely think you guys are on the Right. Path with that.

That's good. Yeah. So I want to go back to. Because you said you look at a lot of copy, you have like 70 plus people or so in there. What are some like, I know you're all about the deep emotional and now even more so. Like what's working really well that folks here can kind of swipe and just start testing out.

Yeah, I'd say the. So the biggest thing right now that everybody wants is to get compliant offers up on Facebook, by far is the biggest need. And it's really hard because in order to get something running on Facebook, it's got to be pretty watered down to make it compliant. And then obviously the conversions drop. So what we're kind of seeing a lot of people doing really, really well is taking an offer that works, usually testing it in email. So you'd write the hard hitting copy that you normally do, test it in email, and once you know that it's a viable offer that it works, then transferring it over and trying to test it on Facebook with a much more kind of watered down approach where you're pulling out some of the claims, you're making it more user friendly. One of the big things Facebook doesn't allow is they don't allow you to make people feel like shit.

Like you normally wouldn't copy. Where you dig into all their pain points and kind of make them feel bad about whatever's going on Facebook. That's a big no no. So you got to do things much in a much more happy and positive way, which is a very different way of writing copy. For people who learned how to write copy 10, 20 years ago.

Sure.

Because it's literally the complete opposite. So, yeah, I mean, I tend to call it the watered down direct response that I see working really, really well right now. And it's as a copywriter, it's kind of hard emotionally because you look at you like, God damn, I could write something so much better than this. But at the end of the day, what really matters is that you're bringing in customers and if you can get it to work to the point where you're bringing in 100, 200,000 customers a day. Like who? What's it really matter if it's 70% as good as what you normally. Right.

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's interesting that Facebook and, you know, Google, maybe more Facebook is. Yeah, it's changing the game of copywriting. It's like completely shifting how you approach that. Thinking.

Yeah, I actually mentioned this the other day. Copy has probably changed more in 2019 than it has in the previous 10 years.

Whoa.

Simply because of compliance. Because copy in 2019 is compliance. Trump's conversion in 2019, that's probably the biggest change.

Is it mainly Facebook or you see Google and all these other networks too.

It's everywhere. I mean, if you want to run on any of the tier one stuff. So Google, Facebook native, the compliance has gotten really, really tough. There's obviously ways around it with like article landers and stuff like that. But if you want to run for the long term, you have to figure out a way to kind of water down your copy in a way that Facebook's gonna be okay with it and Google's gonna be okay with it and not.

Not try to hide the fact and just do like hard hitting copy. Because that's. People do that and it works for a while, but it's definitely moving in the direction of everything has to have this like fun, fun, good, positive vibe to it. And you can't, you can't make people feel bad.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's not just the ad, that's.

The landing page too.

I think a lot of people think like, oh, I can only, you know, I have to follow their terms on the ad. But Facebook actually does look at the landing pages. I know for a fact because we've had Facebook ads account shuts down.

So if you're doing the right thing in business and pushing the limits, that probably happened.

So I want to, I want to touch on Patriot Power Greens real quick because we actually have a couple friends who are affiliates of Patriot Power Greens. So I find it super interesting that you're involved in that and you helped take it in three years to 280,000 new buyers. What sort of things? What was your involvement in it and how did you help grow that?

Yeah, so I started the supplement company with another guy named Brandon. So we started it. It was called Patriot Health Alliance. We started it basically because both of us were doing all these email buys on conservative email lists and we were doing really well with it. We're promoting a bunch of affiliate offers and stuff. And we basically. I messaged him one day, I was like, why don't we just start our own supplement company and promote our own offers? And he's like, all right. So we did that. We started with a testosterone offer that did pretty well. We grew that to about a million dollars in sales in the first year. And then Brandon ended up being bought out by my other partner, who was my future partner, Alan Baylor.

And so Alan and I took that company from a Million in sales to 23 million in about two and a half to three years. And Patriot Power Greens, which was our greens powder, was the main product that kind of built that. And it's one of the reasons why I'm so big on getting an offer to work on Cold traffic, because I saw it firsthand when we were bringing in 700 new buyers a day who are spending $200 on their first purchase. How much? That grew the company on the back end, because we were pretty good at backend already. And like I said, you don't have to be a genius to be good at back end stuff. When you're bringing in that many buyers, it completely changes the game because all those people just buy all your stuff on the back end, and then you're just making money hand over fist. And we basically saw that. So Patriot Power Greens, interestingly, when it started out, a lot of copywriters look at products and they're like, they'll do all the research and they'll be like, okay, where's the hook in this? Blah, blah, blah, which is a good way to do it. Another way you can do it, which is what I did, was if you know the market well enough, you create the hook before you even create the product. So what I do with Patriot Power Greens was I know what works in the conservative niche. And I was like, there's one angle I know that I have not seen anybody do, and that's tying something to the military. People who are politically conservative have a huge affinity for the military. Military. And so I was like, there's got to be a way we can tie this in. So I had a cousin who was in the Coast Guard at the time, and we basically, when we made our supplement, packaged up a huge box of it, I shipped it out to him, and I was like, hey, you and your buddies in your unit in the Coast Guard, give us a try. Let me know what you guys think of it. And so they tried it for a couple weeks, and they sent us back a bunch of user feedback. And one of the ones that really stood out to me, they had this guy in the group who was one of the older guys. I mean, most people in the military are like 19, 20 years old. This guy was like, older, older for the military. And he talked about how all of his PT times were improving. He had more energy. And he was like, I'm keeping up with the young guys for the first time and actually beating them in some of this stuff. And I was like, oh, shit, that's a great.

As soon as I read that, I was like, okay, here's like. And then I literally turned that into.

Patriot Power Greens was now like this elite or this exclusive greens drink that was formerly used by elite military units. And it was helping the old guys keep up with the young guys in their unit. And that turned out to be an absolute home run, because to a guy who's 55, 60 years old, more than anything, he wants to be young again. That's exactly what he wants. So, yeah, that was kind of the first hook we tested. It was an absolute, like, grand slam right out of the gate. We were spending like $3,000 on an email buy and bringing back like $15,000 on day one. Yeah. Wow. I had never seen it. I literally thought stuff was broken because I was like, I have never seen anything like this.

So, yeah, that's kind of how that started off. And like I said, over basically about a three year span, we scaled that to. It brought in somewhere around 280,000 to about 300,000 brand new buyers. So it was a huge hit.

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.

And I know it had a bunch of affiliates too, because we had a couple buddies who were telling us, oh, dude, you guys got to get on board for this Patriot Power Greens thing. This thing is just crushing it for the affiliates.

Well, you had the hook, right? It started with the hook. And did that change over time over the span of those 3 years? Years or so?

Not really.

The thing we realized was that the stories we were getting from the people using it turned out to be kind of the best stuff for our marketing. So, like, one of our great ones was we had this woman who, her husband was a World War II vet. He was like 90, 93 years old or something. He was in a veterans home in California. And she was on one of these email lists and bought it for him. And he was basically bedridden for like six months. And she was like, basically like, what can it hurt? I might as well try this and see if it helps him. And she started giving it to her husband. And she said she came back into the veterans home, like, I think it was like a couple days later. And he was like out of his room and walking down to the dining hall. And she was like, he hadn't left his bed for like six months and now he was like walking down the dining hall that was like apparently half a mile away.

She sent us this email and I was like, oh, wow, this is an amazing story. So I got in touch with her and I had like a two Hour phone call. And she was like the sweetest lady ever and couldn't believe how much this was helping her husband. And she was so, like, grateful. And I was like, okay. And I was like, we'll send you a bunch more of it for free. I was like, I just want to. Can we use your story? I was like, it would be a great story to use in our marketing stuff. And she was like, yeah, that'd be great. So she lets us use this. She sent us a bunch of pictures of her husband. Like even sent us pictures of him back when he was in the military and all this stuff. I wrote up this huge, great story about how this former World War II vet who was basically bedridden was now up and walking around. And if this could do that much for him, just kind of think about what it could do for you. And stories like that. We got those kind of stories over and over and those just crushed and propelled the marketing on and on.

That's freaking awesome. Yeah, that's.

Yeah.

I mean, it's talking to your customers, man, listening to them. And real stories, I mean, it seems like that's where the best copy, obviously the hooks can come from. You see the emotion in those stories. So it's like, even if you're maybe not super empathetic quite yet as a copywriter, if you're listening or so you know, you can actually like, kind of piggyback off those stories and be like, ah, okay, use the wipes.

Speaking on emotion, what are some of the, like the sort of emotional triggers that have been the most effective to hit on in the copy to really get kind of people into that buying mode?

So, I mean, it definitely depends on. It depends on the niche. So like, if you're in financial, they do kind of a combination of fear and greed stuff. So they'll do fear. That'll be the very doomsday and everything is going to end. And then they'll. They'll do other ones that are huge, huge. Like greed plays where it's like you can invest $50 in this marijuana stock and potentially make $3 million in retirement, like for that niche that really works. I do a lot of work in the survival niche. And with survival, it's really anger more than anything.

Yeah.

The people who, if you're not familiar with the survival niche, it's mostly very right wing conservative and sometimes libertarian men, mostly men over the age of 60 who are very, very angry at kind of the way things are going in the world. They're very angry at specific groups. Everything about they're just angry people.

And anger really, though, is coupled with fear. So the reason they're angry is kind of like their life hasn't turned out how it is. They like to blame other people for everything. They blame the government.

But then a part of that is also fear. That.

Fear of where things are going, fear of them not being able to be able to survive on their own. Fear of all that kind of stuff. So, like, that market is very. Like I said, it's a. It's a fear. And you tap. You start with the anger and then you transition to fear with a lot of stuff. So a lot of it, like I said, it goes back to really knowing who the customer is. And like, if you're marketing to men, usually it might be a little different than if you're marketing to women, all that kind of stuff. So, I mean, look at like women's. Women's weight loss or women's beauty, which would be like face. Face creams and moisturizers and stuff like that. Like, that one's pretty much all built on shame.

Oh, yeah.

It's basically, I'm not thin enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not. Whatever.

So, I mean, the biggest thing is all markets are different. There's usually one kind of main emotion that you'd want to target, but overall, you can only really find that out by doing the research and actually knowing who the customer has.

Well, it seems like you said something there. It's like you're almost flipping it a little bit. So it seems like every emotion, you can start with one. Maybe that's the one that's top of mind for them. So like you said, anger. They're always angry and they're pissed off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they're not going to admit they're fearful of just shit crumbling or China taking over, whatever the hell their fears are, you know, but they're. It's interesting that you can, like, flip that emotion once you start with their trigger. I'm sure there's, you know, a flip to every happy, sad, whatever emotion. Just tie it back to the market after you understand them.

Yeah. And I mean, you see the Agora companies doing this really well, especially in the health niche, where if you looked at one of their VSLs and the first, like, three minutes of it is about Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton, you'd be like, what the hell does this have to do with selling a testosterone supplement?

Yeah. Yep.

But that's what's on the top of the mind for the customer. And they're smart enough, the copywriter wrote it. They're smart enough to be able to make that transition from starting with bitching about Hillary or bitching about Obama and then turning it to eventually getting to what they want to talk about in terms of the promise or.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean that's, that's something that your, your beginner copywriter would never be able to do because they would just write out features and benefits and kind of talk like that. But if you could really tap into that big, big thing that, that's on their mind every single day, that thing that gets them emotionally charged up, then you're, you're playing a whole different game when you can do that.

Yeah, that makes sense. And then that, that's your hook essentially. You know, it's like it's the big hook and then you draw them in. The story almost writes itself a little bit there. Obviously no instruction and all that.

Yeah. Now what, what do you think? What sort of emotions would you touch on? And I don't know if you even work in this, this niche at all, but in the, the sort of like biz op marketing, I mean we don't really operate in biz op. We operate more like business to business marketing advice and that sort of thing. What sort of emotional triggers would you hit on in that kind of space?

Yeah, so we have a bunch of guys and like I said in our copy accelerator group in this niche and we help them. The thing I've realized with the biz op type stuff is that they care a hundred times more about getting out of their current situation than they do about whatever it is you're selling them. So you really want to empathize with them about their current situation. So it's going to be a lot of frustration and anger. It's going to be a lot of shame that like they're not making as much money as maybe one of their buddies or their wife's like, brother. Stuff like that really resonates. Like if they need to drive an hour every day in traffic and they're just pissed off that entire time talking about that and bringing that up, or the boss that they have who basically doesn't listen to them and just tells them what to do, that type of shit is going to resonate with them 100 times more than you tell them about this bright shiny object over here. Because once you can empathize with them on that and on their situation, then you can easily turn it and kind of show them a better way.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Jot. Some of these down, because these are freaking awesome, man. Because, yeah, it's. The lack of freedom is really the probably that flip side of the emotion, you know? But you want to hit them head on with whatever it is. Maybe commuting or not. Your boss fricking screaming at deadlines all day long. You're like, God damn it.

Yeah. You have to start with where they're at, because if you don't do that first part, you don't empathize with them and get them emotionally charged up about their current situation. Trying to sell them on the biz op course is gonna be really damn hard.

Mm.

Because it's not enough of a. Getting out of their current situation appeals to them way more than. Than whatever this new shiny object is that you're selling them. That's really just a way out of their current situation. They care. Like. Like, when you talk about weight loss, people care a lot more about not being fat than they do about being skinny. Like, that's a. That's a minor difference, but it's. It's a huge shift in the way you would talk to them. Like, they want to not be fat a lot more than they want to be skinny.

Yeah. And get them out of the. The. What was it? Sego? Travis Sago's like, take him to. Get him out of hell and take them to whatever island. Yeah.

Like, hell island.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get him off that place. That's awesome, man. No, this is good.

Cool.

I think we're. Yeah. Let's wrap her up, huh? And what are some books you just find yourself going back to or maybe recommending some of these consulting folks and people you're mentoring that just left this massive impact for you?

Let me think.

So a couple that. My biggest one that I recommend to everybody who's in the kind of direct response space is Michael Masterson's Ready, Fire, Aim.

Yeah, that's a good book.

That book literally blew my mind the first time I read it. When he talks about the different stages of the business growth and how in the first year, you should always be focusing on sales and then focusing on gathering customers.

It's really kind of the blueprint for how to build either an info product business or some type of even physical products business online. I think he really nailed it. He obviously super successful, tons of tons of experience. So that's probably the number one book I recommend. The other one would be Steven Pressfield's Turning Pro.

Huge impact on me. I remember the first time I read that, just seeing the way he does the Contrast between being an amateur and being a pro. It really flipped a switch for me in terms of a lot of the stuff I was doing before where I was very much in that amateur mindset.

Yeah. Everything Steven Pressfield's written has been amazing. Actually, I haven't read his fiction stuff, but all of his nonfiction has been amazing.

Yeah. Yeah.

Same way. I've actually never read any of his. Any of his fiction.

It's got to be good.

I think I've seen the movie the Legend of Bagger Vance, which he wrote.

But there you go.

Awesome. Dude.

Where. Where would you want people to go after listening to this episode? Where's the best place to check you out and, you know, if somebody might be interested to get on your list or something like that? Where can they go?

Yeah. So we talked about my email list at the beginning. I actually have a special link that people can go and get on it, or they can go and apply to get on it. It's super simple. It's justin123.com. If you go to justin123.com, it just'll send you to a really ugly Google Doc form where you kind of fill that out. And I actually check that literally every day. And then if you're basically accepted on the list, you'll start getting the emails within about 48 hours or so.

Cool.

So cool.

Yeah, I mean, I'm on the list. I can attest is great content. There's. There's very rarely even links in the emails. A lot of times it's just like, hey, here's some wisdom from something I experienced today. So it's. It's. It's really, really valuable stuff.

And I will admit I'm not on the list yet. I hope I get approved after I apply after this. Thanks, Justin.

We'll make a deal for you.

Thanks, brother.

Awesome, man. Well, I really appreciate you being super open with us and, you know, just sharing and going wherever we wanted to take this thing. And you, you know, you were very, very open. So I really appreciate that.

Yeah, no problem, guys. I appreciate you guys having me.

All right, have a good one.

All right, see you.

Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take the time notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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