Ken Coleman — How To Achieve Your Goals Using The Proximity Principle

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flow Chart podcast with your boys, Mount Wolf and Joe Fear.

We're back again.

We're back again.

We're back for another great interview.

Who we talking to?

Our main man, Mr. Ken Coleman. Yeah. Of the Proximity Principle, a new book that is coming out.

And also he's co host of a bunch of podcasts. He's actually on SiriusXM, some radio with a radio broadcast show, a live call in. He works directly with Dave Ramsey. He's got some good stuff going on.

Ken's cool. So he. I think my. My favorite part of this was Matt's therapy session with Ken. I didn't see that coming, but it was actually really cool because Ken, that's. That's pretty much what he does on his live show, he was saying. And he gave us kind of like a behind the scenes look at how his show is running. And even more important than that were the questions, the very specific questions and strategies he uses to open people up and to really help folks kind of figure out their mindset. He's really big into mindset and figuring out kind of the head stuff and how you can create an amazing life. And in this case, we were talking a lot also about this new book that's coming out, the Proximity Principle, and how you can relate that to everything you're trying to do in life. Grow your business, get a better job, if that's your thing, whatever it might be. You can use people, places and kind of position yourself correctly to get those opportunities you want. Yeah, really cool.

We also talk about what. We talk about networking. He loves networking. He's a huge fan of networking and passing out business cards and things like that.

Sure, burn them.

No, I'm just kidding. We talk about how the traditional ways of networking just don't work and everybody hates doing it, so stop doing it.

And.

And he'll tell you what to do instead when we get into this episode.

But maybe. Maybe it's the right place at the right time. I don't know. Maybe. I'm just kidding.

We'll get into that.

Sorry, kid, if you hear this, you don't like that.

All right, so, yeah, let's go talk to him about the Proximity Principle. But before we do, we've got our traffic book still available. Evergreen Traffic Playbook. I was about to call it the Evergreen Profits Playbook again, but it's the Evergreen Traffic Playbook. You can go get it at evergreenprofits.com/traffic book. And it's got a lot of good stuff in it.

Yeah, no, it's amazing. And I would say for that big old price of free, it's probably one. You should at least crack open that PDF and check out for yourself. And you're going to learn exactly how we're running our traffic, how we have this kind of omnipresence, be everywhere thing going on on all these different channels online. And let's be honest, this is how we make our money. So if you actually want to figure out this whole technique and how the podcast plays right inside that whole strategy, but doesn't have to be a podcast for you. It could be something else. Blog post, videos, whatever, doesn't matter. You'll learn it all right there and you have the opportunity to even explore a whole bunch of other cool stuff from that point. So go to evergreen profits.com trafficbook.

Yes, go do that now. No, go do that in.

Not now.

A little bit. Right after we finished talking to Ken Coleman.

Yes. Just write the URL on your forehead. You know, you'll remember it when you're brushing your teeth at night. Like, oh, yeah, I need to go get that free book for Matt and Joe.

Joe Fear done lost his mind. Let's go talk to Ken.

Hey, Ken, thanks for hopping on the show with us today.

Matt, Joe, thrilled to be with you guys. Thanks for having me.

Yeah. So you have an interesting book coming out that is. It's something that I know we all use, and I know Matt and I have used a lot of these principles you line out there, but we just didn't have really a title for it. But like we were saying before we hopped on the air, there's a lot of stuff here that we just perpetually should be using and aware of. So I think it's perfect to bring you on the show and chat about all that. Yeah.

Well, thanks. Yeah. The proximity principle is something that's been around for a long, long, long time. I think if you look at any successful man or woman or organization, there has been some intentionality to get around the right people and get in the right places. I love that you use the word perpetually. And that's really the key and the power behind proximity. Proximity positions us where we need to be and it propels us to where we want to be. And again, that's no matter who you are, no matter what industry, where you're at on the career ladder or success ladder, it's just the secret sauce. Because if you look at the great innovators and legendary business People, they had a knack for getting around their competitors a lot as well, and then having the knack of being intentional, to put themselves in positions where they're constantly learning, performing, changing. They're just never okay with the status quo. And so the proximity principle itself is a principle of action and intentionality.

I like that. And it's all about results. And, you know, the actions are going to get you there. So it's perfect.

And when does the book come out? I'm not. I just want to sort of give the audience an idea because it may actually be out by the time this episode comes live.

Yeah, May 13th. It hits stores everywhere. And we're really excited about that. If I could get this, this book in the hands of successful people who lead others, in the hands of, you know, people who want to make a major change in their life, people who are starting out on the journey, I gotta tell you, I'd be so thrilled because it's. It really is a game changer when you can begin to stare fear and doubt and uncertainty in the face and kind of say, all right, I can actually step through all of this, despite the. Despite the presence of fear, doubt and uncertainty. And I can, and I can walk forward because I can always identify good people, the right people that I need to be or people I can learn from, people that can help me, people that can connect me, people that could teach me. And then there's always places for us to be challenged and to learn and grow. And so.

It'S exciting, man, for it to come out. It can't come out fast enough as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, I would imagine. And yeah, we saw. So thank you for sending us even an advanced copy of it, which is super cool to see. So we had the pleasure of actually going through the book and checking it out prior to getting released. So appreciate that too.

Let's go back really quick and get to know you and what your story looks like that led you up to this point. So what made Ken Ken as you are today?

Well, how far back are we going? Because you know how that goes. We want to make sure.

Yeah, that's true. We don't want to get too crazy.

When did your entrepreneurial journey start and how did it start?

Yeah, so I was working for John Maxwell, who is a well known leadership best selling author, had live events and was vice president for his company. And I began to really feel the stir to go into broadcasting. And it became very obvious to me. I spent a lot of time, I took my time with it. Really did the research and made sure that what I wanted to do matched up with my talents and values. And so I began to feel the stir. And I knew that if I was going to move into an industry like broadcasting where I didn't have a degree in it, I didn't have any connections at all. And I knew it was going to be a long journey to really go for this. It wasn't going to be a I'm going to be able to do this in a year from now or two years. It was going to take some time that I was going to have to be self employed, that I was going to have to be that entrepreneur so that I could start something that would sustain me financially and also give me the flexibility and the freedom to pursue the dream job while doing the day job. So it would have been 2005 and I left that company to start my own company that was one half of a sales company and the other half of a consulting company. Basically we were selling sponsorships to large live events because my wife and I both had come from that live event world and large events, and so we knew it and we understood how to acquire sponsorships and we both could sell. And then I also, because of my background, having worked in politics and then also with John at a leadership company, I had a lot of companies, leadership companies or speakers and authors, who wanted my consultancy on helping them kind of commoditize, if you will, their content and help them develop a plan. And so I did a lot of that as well. And so that was the, that was the foray into owning my own company. And it was scary, but it also worked and it sustained me and gave me a great platform from which to step into the dream job.

Well, it sounds like you were in, pardon the pun, but in good proximity of the right people and places because you hooked up with Dave Ramsey, so he's your publisher, he did the forward and all that stuff. So it's good people to definitely be working and associating with as well who have a platform to kick you off.

Yeah, that's where this whole book came from. I did not intend to write this particular book. I was driving to work about a year ago and I was at a stoplight. And I don't know if you, if you all are like me, but I like to scan my schedule and I've got three kids and two dogs, so mornings at our house is like, you know, organized chaos. So I was scanning at this stoplight what my schedule was for the day. And the first thing I had was a podcast interview much like this. And the guy had sent me his pre submitted questions. And so I was just kind of looking them over just to see what he was going to ask me. And one of the questions at the very end of his interview was how if you were going to, you're going to break down your success into one key thing that you did to go from, you know, being a businessman, an entrepreneur, into broadcasting with no experience and very little connections. What's that one thing? And it was, I was like, oh man, how do I answer that? Boy, that's tough. And so I pulled away from that stoplight and began to really bounce that around in my head. And it's like, if I can only say one thing, it was one thing, one thing. What was the biggest thing that I did that helped me on this journey? And it came to me in the form of, well, I was pretty darn good about getting around the right people and in the right places. And I don't know if you guys are like me, but every once in a while you'll come up with a thought like that and it sounds really good, but you're not quite sure if it's actually good all the time. All the time. I kept rolling around in my head for about another 10 minutes until I pulled into the office parking lot. And when I pulled in the parking lot, I had come up with, well, it's about proximity. And then I'd come up with the proximity principle. And I got to give full credit to John Maxwell, although he has nothing to do with this, he influenced me with all of his principles and laws and things of that nature. And so, you know, he just always thought that way. And so I pulled out my cell phone and I said, the proximity principle says in order to do what I want to do or be where I want to be, I've got to be around people that are doing it and in places where it is happening. And that's a great principle for anybody. Even if you're in your desired field and you've had some success, but you want to get to the top. You know, you think about the people that are doing what you want to do, the people that are winning in your field, you've got to get around them in some form or some fashion, because that's where you learn and that's where you do, and that's where you connect.

Yeah.

And that's the beauty of proximity. It always allows me to learn what I need to learn, allows me to do what I need to do, and Allows me to connect with the people that I need to connect with. And so that's how the whole idea came, came. And it's really true. That's something that I, I don't know if that's a talent, but it certainly is something that you can, it's a discipline and I think it can become a skill of how to find the right people and find the right places and then get there.

It sure seems like a lot of folks, some folks are a lot more deliberate about it and some folks just happen to be in the right place at the right time or know the right people. So there's a lot of ways into it. It seems like now I want to.

Dig into the proximity principle in a minute. But before we do, can you give our audience a quick idea of sort of what you do now? What does your day to day look like? What is the business today?

Yeah. Thank you. Well, I work, as you mentioned, for Dave Ramsey. Ramsey Solutions is the company name. If people don't know who Dave Ramsey is, he's the third largest radio show, talk radio show in the country. He focuses specifically on helping people get out of debt and win with money. And so he has built an empire, if you will, over 27 years of having a very successful radio show. And I am one of the, what he calls a Ramsey personality. What that simply means is that I represent Ramsey Solutions in a specific category of content and solutions. And that is, if we're going to call it something, it would be the career space. I'd also call it just personal development and success. That's, that's where I would put it. And specifically I host two great programs. One is the Ken Coleman show, which is a live daily radio show on Sirius xm. And then we also podcast that daily show. And then I also host the Entree Leadership Podcast, which is our leadership division of Ramsey Solutions. And that's more of an interview based program where I'm interviewing great leaders from all walks of life. The Ken Coleman show is a caller driven show where everyday people, men and women, are calling and they need help with discovery of what it is they were created to do, why am I here? Or they know what it is, but they're not quite sure how to get there. And so it is a advice show, if you will, but I like to tell the callers and I'll tell you folks that you know, it is, they have the answers. I don't have the answers. I just use questions and my discernment like a scalpel. And we uncover people's Heart. And we help them figure out what it is they're created to do. And then I help give them a plan on how to make that a reality. So, you know, besides the two programs, obviously, I've written a book, and now we've got the second book, the Proximity Principle, coming out. And we're constantly creating resources and content to help people. Help people be who they were created to be.

I think that's super fascinating. Yeah, you guys are doing some good stuff. And what fascinates me is the live broadcast, the call in. You know, it's like a totally different world than what Matt and I are used to with just podcasts, you know, pre recorded. And it's, you know, we keep it very raw. Like, we don't really edit these things at all. But at the same time, yeah, when you're live, it's like, ooh, it's a whole different beast, I would imagine.

Yeah, it's a tightrope, you know, because I don't know what the callers are going to say, right. I don't know what their issue is. Right out of the gate, they tell me what they believe their issue is, but sometimes that's not what's really going on. And so it is this little mix of I've got to be super discerning and really listen. I've got to ask questions, and I've got to give them some confidence to answer the answer the question that I'm asking and answer it in a truthful way. So not that they're lying, but so that they actually see what it is they need to see about themselves, and then we can talk about solutions. And so there's an interesting thing about talk radio that even though they're nervous because it's live and it's a national show, there's still something about the barrier between the phone calls. So I'm on one end, they're on the other, and because I'm not looking at them, we're not in the same room, there's enough of a barrier where they can be free and vulnerable and kind of bear their soul. So it's kind of an interesting mix. And I think that their nerves, plus the pressure on me, it makes for terrific vulnerability. And that's where you get to the truth of helping somebody is when they're vulnerable and they know they can trust me. And I have clarity because they've given me all the facts. So it's. I got to tell you, it's. It's wildly fun. I always look forward to it, you know, it's just one call after the next. We do one break on SiriusXM, then we come back and it's just wall to wall, you know, deep dive.

That's cool. And we could speak to that too. Is, you know, we've been, we actually did an in person interview with another on another podcast yesterday here in San Diego. And we'll do occasional video interviews during this show. They're always remote though. But you know, the stand, most of the case is like the case we are right now. There's no video going, there's nothing. We're just kind of sitting back, listening, taking it all in. And I think we do see that. That's exactly right. People get a little bit more vulnerable. They just. That barrier, we're not staring each other down or you're not worried about what does my hair look like or what does he think about what I'm wearing.

You just focus on the audio. And I think that has helped us a lot and it took us a while to figure out that difference and it completely changes the tone. And I'm curious about the interview. So some questions. Do you have a strategy of obviously very, very good listening, it sounds like is a big key asset of yours, but do you have some go to questions or strategies of asking these questions so you can dig, like you said, with a scalpel to help find those solutions that are buried in.

Well, I have some questions that I use on a regular basis because I know they work. But the way that the interaction starts is I've got a associate producer who's screening the call. And so before we ever bring them on the air alive, she's talking with them and she's helping coach them so that when the phone call starts, they get right to their problem. You know, you have limited time in live radio. We're talking about heavy duty stuff that I'm usually addressing in six minutes.

Wow.

And so they've got to get right to the, to the problem. So they'll start the call and however they start the call is based on how she kind of gets them ready because they'll call in and say, I'm struggling to figure out what my passion is. I know what I'm good at, but I'm not sure what I love to do and I just can't figure it out. And so she'll go, great. Okay, so you're in the Discovery stage. Tell Ken you're in the Discovery stage that you're specifically wrestling with what it is you're most passionate about doing. And you need his Help. So if they start to call that way, then, boom, I instantly know that. And by the way, most people struggle to identify the work that they love to do most, way more than with what they're talented at, what their skills are. And so, because I teach and because I believe that your talent and passion are inextricably linked, meaning we, as human beings don't love to do something we suck at. We just don't. Except for golf. Like, I find that I play golf even though I suck, but that's like a social thing. And there's cigar and bourbon involved on.

The back of the. I was going to say alcohol.

Different thing. But outside of that, right. We don't like to do things that we're awful at.

Right.

And yet, let's look at the converse. We. If we're really good at something, we genuine. We genuine. Excuse me. Generally like to do it. So when someone is hung up on passion, I actually redirect their brain, and the first thing I say is, all right, great, we're gonna figure this out. Tell me what you do best. If I interviewed everybody that you know that knows you very, very well, and I said, tell me what they do best. Tell me your talents, skills, character strengths, all that kind of stuff. And so, you know, by that time that they've called me, they've been listening to my show, so they've heard me do this. So usually they're kind of prepared. But even if they're not, a person is going to be able to tell me what they do best a lot easier than what they love to do most. And so once I get those talents and skills and character strengths identified, then they're loosened up a little bit, and I'll say, all right, let's. Just. For a moment, just. Just tell me, what do you think you love to do more than anything else? Just give me a sense of. Of a role or a function that when you are doing it or look or when you're thinking about doing it, it gives you some juice. By this time, they can give me one or two things, and then I try to get a list of three or four there. And then I show them the connection between talent, what they do best, and passion, what they love to do most. Because you've got to combine the two. Passion's not enough. Talent's not enough. It's gotta be a combination. And so depending on the situation, if they're struggling with passion. To answer your question now, I would say I want you to listen to these three questions and just blurt out Something. What problem do you most want to solve?

What solution do you most want to provide? Who is it? Do you have a face? Is it a person with a problem? You know what I mean? Who do you most want to help? And so you ask those three questions, which is basically the same question, but I ask it three different ways. And the reason you do that is you do it quick. And it makes the brain, we know from psychology, makes the brain kind of break everything down. So if they're locked up on something, I've hit them three different ways. Who do you most want to help? What problem you want to solve, what solution you want to provide? And that usually unlocks them. So there are some questions that I use as tools that will get somebody out of their head and into their heart. And when I can get somebody out of their head and revealing their heart, now we get somewhere.

Yeah. That's powerful. I love that. And this reminds me of a book that just read, Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. Negotiation book, and very similar approach to what you're saying here. It's the how and what questions, and you're allowing them to come up with the answers. So then, like you said, it gets to the heart. It's. It's getting them. It's kind of this wall breaks down because it's. Now they're in control of this conversation. It's their ideas, and all you're doing is just kind of directing them.

That's exactly right, because it's not just a technique. Although I know Chris Voss. I've interviewed him and I. And he influenced me with some of these things. Things. But to your point, it's not just that it's their idea. It's that they're hearing themselves reveal things about themselves that many times they've never said out loud or had anybody say it to them. And so they realize, wait a second. Ken's. Ken's just opening me up. This isn't Ken dropping anything on me. All he's doing is cracking me open here, and we're letting some light in. And then it can see themselves as. As they need to see themselves. And so that's where the power comes in. They go, oh, my gosh. And as they begin to hear themselves say it, they begin to feel it. And there's nothing like the feeling of confirmation from the heart that can set the brain free.

It's flipping that switch. Yeah, I know that feeling when it happens.

I mean, that's how therapy works, right? Like a good therapist, their job is just to get you talking Right. Just to get you unloading.

You know, the therapist is an objective person who has some techniques and tools that they know that if you're fully participant in the process, that you will begin to discover, reveal, realize all those things. And so, yeah, in some ways, people ask me all the time, what role do you play in your show? And I think it's. I think it's a three, three way role. I think it is. I'm part counselor in therapy. I'm part coach, where now I'm instructing them. This is what you need to do and how you need to do it. And then I'm always a cheerleader. I find that men and women, they need even adults. We just need somebody going, add a boy, add a girl. You got this.

Yeah.

To validate maybe some thoughts that they have in their head that they haven't told others. But then you're saying, yeah, that's right. You got it. Yeah, it's possible. And that could be enough for them to be like, okay, let's do this. We got it.

That's right.

All right.

Now, I mean, this may be a good transition into the proximity principle. I'm not sure, but how did you get involved with. With Dave Ramsey and Sirius XM and just all of this amazing stuff you have going on? How did. How did that stuff happen?

Yeah, I love this question because I want people to see that, that this is a process and it was years in the making, but it was the result of one intentional decision. So I'm not sure the year, guys, but I'm gonna say it was 2006 or 2007. I'm confident was one of those years. I need to look this up. But pod, we still had ipods. Do you remember ipods? Did you guys ever have an ipod?

Oh, yeah, of course.

Yeah. Yeah. That's actually where the term podcast came from, was it was an ipod.

People don't realize that there's a lot of young people have no idea what an ipod is.

That's crazy because.

Because you remember Steve Jobs changed the game when we went from IP to iPhones, when you could have all the same music from your iPad now on your smartphone. That was when the world changed, literally. So we. I had an ipod, just like, you know, many, many people. And I read an article one day, and I think it was Fast Company or it might have been Entrepreneur or Inc. One of those three magazines. And it was one of these little half columns, you know what I mean, on the side of a page, about a fourth of the width. And you Know, kind of a half. Half the page. And it was about podcasting, and I'd never seen or heard the term. And it was, hey, you can create a program on your computer, and you can put it out on the Internet, and people can download it, listen to it on their ipod. And I was like, wow, that's cool. And I had already left John Maxwell, so I've told that story earlier program. So we're going back to that story. I had gone out on my own, but I was still doing some contract work for that company, and I was doing contract work for Catalyst, which was their young leadership division. And I read this little column, and I was in the office like a day or two later, and I was doing my normal consultant work with those guys. And these guys are guys that I knew well. So they were friends and they trusted me. And I said, hey, have you heard of podcasting? I think one of the guys is like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, I think we ought to do one for Catalyst. And as you guys know, I want to. I'm moving towards broadcasting. I'm willing to. I'm willing to host it. Maybe one of you guys co hosts with me. Let's get this thing going. Let's just turn into an interview show, and let's just put it out there, because not a lot of people are doing it. And I think it's a frontier that we need to be exploring. And so, long story short, those guys were like, okay, doesn't seem crazy. They weren't paying me for it. So it was low risk. I was willing to do it for free, put all my time and effort into it, and we launched it. We were one of the first successful leadership podcast. The Catalyst podcast still exists today. It was in the faith leadership space, the church leadership space specifically, but it was an interview show. And we were. In the early days. I mean, you were talking 2006, 2007. There weren't a ton of podcasts out there, early for podcasts. And it was a very successful podcast. And so as a result of that, that thing really began to take off. And so then the guy said, hey, why don't you do our interviews on stage at our big leadership conference? 12,000 people. And we know you're doing a good job on the podcast, so why don't you interview Tony Dungy next year at our big, you know, fall event? And so I did. And so all of a sudden, I became this trusted interviewer. And so here I was, looking to break into broadcasting, not knowing exactly where or how. And then I Got this opportunity to start doing all these interviews with big names. So I was interviewing Jim Collins, Malcolm Gladwell, Seth Godin, you name them and all for this, this leadership podcast cause had a big audience and then they were coming to this live event. I was interviewing in front of people, so began to build some credibility. Well, that's when Dave Ramsey shows up. Now, we had some mutual friends, but we. It would have been just mutual friends when he met me in a context of doing interviews is when this whole thing began to start. And so I interviewed him for the Catalyst podcast. I interviewed him on that stage a few times. And unbeknownst to me, Dave was paying attention. He was kind of watching my journey. And Fast forward to 2014. He asked me if I would host a brand new event that they were launching called the Smart Conference. It was a contract basis, one off event. And when I was up here doing an all day planning meeting and programming that event out, he showed up at the very end of the day, walked in, said, hey, we've been talking, talking about you, my leadership team, and we want to offer you a position. And so being in proximity today, doing something that I knew was a smart move by getting in proximity to the industry of let's launch a podcast and get myself some experience and see if I've got the chops. How about confirming whether or not this is in fact the kind of broadcasting I want to do. All of that is proximity. And so being around people like Dave and some of those other names gave me credibility as a broadcaster, as an interviewer specifically. And. And all of that led to the opportunity to join Dave here. And then after three years of serving him in a role of hosting the Entree leadership podcast, emceeing all of our live events, and hosting his video channel, that led to this content role because again, I was here and I was showing that I was humble, that I would lift others, that I actually had some content that I've been dreaming and scheming about and it. And it fit the company strategy. So three years after coming to work for Dave, got the opportunity to have my own program, my own platform, and a part of the future. So that's the proximity story of how I got to Dave Ramsey.

That's awesome, man. Thanks for lining that all out.

Yeah. I'm curious, you know, how do I word this? How much of that was sort of like a methodical, premeditated strategy to get to where you were versus how much of that was kind of like right place, right time kind of thing?

Yeah, that's a really good question. Well, the methodical stuff was definitely the part of the story where I said I wanted to try a podcast, and I said, who? Who do I know that would give me a chance to do it? Because at the time, this is huge for people to understand there's a time to launch your own thing, and there's a time not to. There are times where it's better to do it with or for somebody else before you try it on your own. This is the entrepreneurial roulette question. You know, is time for me to launch my own thing, or is it better for me to work for somebody, work with somebody, learn the ins and outs, watch how they do it. What do they do right? What do they do wrong? How would I do it and learn and do and connect and then position myself for the entrepreneurial journey? And so it was methodical to kick off the idea to those catalyst guys, hey, what do you think about me hosting a podcast for you? They had the platform. They had a lot of people. I, at the time, did not have a platform. And so launching a podcast, while courageous and daring, would not have been as effective. So that was very plotting. And for years, I just did any interview they'd let me do, and I stayed with it. I hosted the cast podcast for six or seven years. Didn't try to launch my own thing until about year seven. That's when I launched the first version of my radio show and blah, blah, blah, my way onto an AM station and did Saturday radio. And by the way, if you guys want to know how many people are listening to radio on Saturday afternoon, it was my wife and the guy next to me in the studio running.

You asked me about plotting. A lot of it was plotting and methodical to continue to put myself in the right place and then not just put myself there. Stay there.

Yeah.

You know, this is not a microwave thing. Are there times where you are in the right place and the right time finds you quicker than others? Absolutely. But is that a thing that happens every day?

No.

And I love the way you asked the question, because I hate that phrase. Oh, you know, he was in the right place at the right time. No, the way it should be said is he or she was in the right place, they stayed in the right place in the right time, found them. It doesn't work. It doesn't. It's not dumb luck.

Oh, I love that explanation right there you just gave.

Do you know what I'm saying?

Oh, absolutely.

Now, now, let me. Let me clarify this, because I know I Said that with a little bit of attitude. And I did that on purpose. There are times in life where the lottery thing happens, but it's important that people understand it has the same odds of you winning the lottery.

An example is a 16 year old kid who's been singing for three years, who's got crazy talent, okay. And they go on American Idol and they are a prodigy and they win it. That happens. But we're talking about prodigious talent. We're talking about. But even then, let's be clear, While they're only 16 years old, they still put themselves in a competition in a meat grinder and they went through the whole process. So even then it's still right place and then the right time happened. And so I hate it was dumb luck. That's a bunch of garbage.

Listen, if you're not in the right place, the right time will not and cannot happen.

No, I love the way that you explain that of putting yourself in the right place and eventually the right time happened. I just, that explanation is just spot on perfect for those types of scenarios.

It sets you up for great opportunities and kind of a mentor, a guy that's been on our podcast here before, Roland Frazier, he owns a lot of businesses and he basically says that from his experience is that the once in a lifetime opportunities come about three times a year is what he has noticed. But of course he's got the proximity principle down and he's allowed himself to be associated with the right people and then he just knows that just being there, it's going to come, you know, different things will, will pop up that seem like those like, oh my God, this is so good. And it's exactly what you're talking about here. It's perfect.

Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, I love that you guys pointed that out about that guy because you can get there too. He's in such a higher place. So his mountaintops a little higher than maybe where some of us are or some of you are that are listening in. But it took time for him to get there. And so the people that are climbing or that are on that level, well, the opportunities that come with those people are much bigger. But you can get there. It's going to take some time. But the people you're hanging out with, the places that you're hanging around in, they are directly related to the, to the quality of the opportunity you're going to get.

Yeah.

So if you're getting crappy opportunities, I got news for you. You're hanging around crappy people and in crappy places.

Yeah, man, it's so true. And I've heard of people getting turned off by the idea of, hey, it's about who you know. It's who you know. It's your circle of. It's your network. I'm like, yeah. And the people that are kind of opposed to that, it just bewilders me because I'm like, that is exactly what has allowed us to have this podcast speak to you guys like you, and do everything else we've done in business. And it's. Yeah, it's to kind of crush that whole mindset and think of what you're putting out here for. The proximity principle is so dang powerful.

Yeah. Let's talk about networking for a second. Because when we think of networking, obviously the sort of traditional thinking of networking is, you know, going to networking events, local meetups, handing out business cards, making FaceTime with as many people as possible, making sure your LinkedIn profile is dialed in. You know, those are sort of what people think of, I think. When you think of networking, what. What sort of alternative approaches do you recommend?

I'm so happy you asked this question. Stop networking.

Stop networking and start connecting. There is a massive difference. And I understand that a lot of times people say networking, and what they really mean is connecting. So good on you. But I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings. But if you're doing what you guys just described as networking, stop it and let me free your soul. Don't ever do it again. Because it's a meat market. And. And I've been to those events. You guys have been to those events, and it's like speed dating, and nobody's there for you. They're all there for them. And. And when I say stop networking and start connecting, I'm saying be intentional. But let's talk to the introverts for a second. Is there anything more horrifying? For now, I'm an extrovert off the charts. But is there anything more horrifying for an introvert than the networking? It's just debilitating.

No, I mean, it's funny because I'm a. This is Matt speaking. I'm, like, kind of an extreme introvert, and Joe's very extroverted. So we actually sort of offset each other for compliment each other in that way in the business. But, yeah, I mean, I've literally had times at networking events where I passed out, like, fainted because I was so overwhelmed. And that's the true story.

So let's think about it. So I'M glad you brought, I'm glad you said that because this isn't just for introverts, but I wanted to single out introverts because I'm super passionate about introverts because I feel like the world is stacked in favor of extroverts. It's just an extrovert world. So like extrovert privilege is a thing and I benefit from it. But introverts like the idea of networking is just as you said, you've passed out. But what you where introverts excel and by the way, so do extroverts is the one to one connection. So the proximity principle is all about connecting, not networking. I listen, I want to, I want to reach out to people that I can learn from and that I can, that I can get value from and I add value to them by being respectful of them, being humble and being specific with the questions I've got when I get time with them. Because people want to help out somebody who's intentional and who values their time and they'll feel valued if you say, hey, I want your insight. But the one on one connection is so much more valuable because the person has agreed to hang with you. So the fact that they've agreed to be with you means they said I'm going to give you my most valuable commodity and that's my time. Now you come in there and you honor them and you thank them, massive gratitude. And then you say I value your feedback and I've prepared some questions for you and, and I want to dive into this and then finish with gratitude and then get right into the questions. You do that with people who are influential people in your space. They are going to feel honored and valued and they are in turn going to give you value. They're going to give you quite, give you great insight, great wisdom and knowledge. But they may make connections for you, they may not. And they might hire you or they might recommend you to somebody who would promote you. So for you, people that are winning in your industry and you want to keep going up the ladder, you need to be around other people in your industry that are winning because you start getting advice from somebody who might even be a competitor and all of a sudden they open up doors for you that you couldn't ever crack yourself. So this idea of networking is a bunch of garbage and it's ineffective and it's just, it's gross. It brings out the worst part of who we are as humans. But versus connecting. And connecting is a game changer.

It's so true. And it's funny that you brought up the speed or you did, actually. Yeah. And I know it's in the book as well. And Matt and I just yesterday were talking about how Matt specifically, he was like, man, I hate the speed dating thing. It's just like. It doesn't feel like you can do any kind of connection. You're rushing. You have to put on this face. But it's all about first impression. But after that, it's like, can't really follow up, have a true conversation.

No, we've actually had experiences where we're at events and they did the, like, every. You talked to everybody for one minute and then you move on. And I absolutely hated it because every single person I had the chance to talk to, I wanted to spend at least 10 more minutes with. I didn't want to, like, end at a minute. I'm like, we didn't get deep enough. But that's just my personality.

And, Ken, you actually had a good story in your book. I remember it was about Jimmy Fallon and how he was able to land the Tonight Show. And it was. You reminded me with the gratitude piece. He always thanked Lorne Michaels at snl, you know, and it was just like, insistent. Just always, thanks for. Thank you for having me. Thank you for your time, you know, and then what do you know? After that, doors opened up. And so the thinking of your time piece. I know that's something that I try to do all the time with any kind of peers or mentors of mine.

You know, and there's. There's something else to it. It's not just saying thank you. It is saying it in a way that it embodies.

Excuse me.

It takes over your entire body that that person goes. Because you. You can imagine Jimmy Fallon. We all watch him every night. You can see him thanking Lorne Michaels. And you can. You can see Jimmy not just saying thank you, but you can see him going, oh, man. You know, he's moving his shoulders back and forth and he's.

I can.

And he's saying thank you. But what he is projecting with his body and his face and. And what we're basically talking about is his countenance, his attitude behind the gratitude. You can see Jimmy saying it, at least in my mind.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, listen, man, like, I can't believe you let me do this. Like, this is so amazing. Like, this is dream. I mean, I'm just so happy to be in the building. You know what I mean? And one of Michaels is going, and this kid. This kid appreciates this I'm happy to give a chance to somebody who is like over the moon.

Yeah.

Thankful just to be in the building that, that, that kind of gratitude is attractive, man. People want to help that. So it's, it's the attitude behind the gratitude. And if you can just swallow your pride and get used to being effusive for a moment. And I'm not talking about fake butt kissing stuff. I'm just saying let the true emotion show so that these people know that you're beyond like they're. The words do not exist. That would allow you to show your gratitude. You do that and people of influence are going to open up doors for you right and left.

Do you have any advice for people that struggle to show emotion in general? Because I know that's a big problem for a lot of people, myself included. I rarely show any sort of emotion other than I'm fine, thanks. So I'm curious, what sort of advice do you have for somebody that actually really struggles? It's a hard thing for me to show amazing amounts of gratitude towards people and to really have a lot of emotion towards a lot of scenarios.

And as the second part to that question is maybe a preferred medium or way to actually show that in the best way.

Yeah, that's good. Two good questions there. Well, I would push back.

Who asked me for that?

Was Matt. Matt asked you.

Okay, so Matt, I would push back a little bit and I would say I'm not asking to do the Ken Coleman version. I mean, people hear the passion coming out of me. I'm naturally an extrovert and very verbose. So, you know, you said rarely. Where I would push back is you said I rarely show it. Well, there's a point where you do show it. How do you show it? Be you show it your way. So it doesn't mean that you're high energy and showing it, but it is very obvious and very sincere that people can read you. So you would. I would say that's a little bit of a cop out. I appreciate the question, but I'm the guy that likes to just push people and go, no, give me your version of crazy grateful. And your version of crazy grateful is not going to be as high energy or emotion driven, but I would guess that you're very sincere and it's very obvious how touched you are when you truly do show your emotions. Yes or no?

Yes. Yeah. I mean, if somebody sees the emotions from me at all, it's probably very, very meaningful.

That's it. So you do your version, you do your version of you. And then the other thing. I thought the second question was really good, Joe, in that if you're not as verbose and you don't feel as comfortable expressing it verbally, my guess is that you are very comfortable writing a heartfelt note, and you can express more emotion in a handwritten note than you could face to face.

Is that fair for Matt? Yeah, probably. I could do that, but I know Matt's preferred medium is writing.

That's why that was such an insightful question, Joe. And so, Matt, you know, you do your best verbally, but you can gush in a handwritten note, you know, maybe. Maybe even a thoughtful gift. You know, like if you find out that the person's favorite treat is jelly beans. Handwritten note, small bag of jelly beans.

Now they're doing. Yeah.

Huh? Now, this is thoughtfulness on another level, because you did your homework on me, and it wasn't lavish, it wasn't creepy, it's not over the top. Nice handwritten note, bag of jelly beans. And that person's going, now that's impressive. Yeah, Thoughtful. That's intentionality. That's appreciation. Wow. Cool stuff. So I think that, that, that's the, you know, you got to do you. But do you. With some extreme thought so that they know this is a person who's really, really grateful.

Yeah, no, I love that advice. Yeah. Thank you very much for that, because that's very, very helpful. And Joe's spot on in that a lot of times when Joe and I are having, like, disagreements in the business and things like that, and I am starting to feel like the emotions, like, come up in me, I will typically write him an email or like a message, you know, in some other medium to sort of explain my emotions because it'll come out better than when I'm actually speaking. And, you know, so it's super helpful. It's just. It's. It's just insights that. I mean, you're bringing up insights about me that I'm not even realizing about me right now. So I guess that's what you do for a living, so.

Well, and here's the other thing. You make a good point there. It's not that I'm reading your mail. I just know. I just know what introverts deal with. So there's a lot of. There's a lot of mats out there. There's a lot of introverts out there. So, you know, this is a common thing.

Yeah, it's true.

Yeah.

I love it. Thank you for that, Ken. I know. Kind of Getting a little later in the conversation, I want to make it super clear, the proximity principle, and actually line that out, like, what are the components? And you highlighting some key things that people should take away if they choose to go grab the book, and they should. So the proximity principle, in short, give us the definition of that. Again, I know you've kind of mentioned it here and there.

Yeah, yeah. It's really. It's really simple. In order to do what I want to do, and we could throw be what I want to be in order to do what I want to do, or be what I want to be, I've got to be around people that are doing it and in places where it is happening. So again, it's a very broad definition on purpose, but it's also super simple. So if you right now are in a career where you've made some real gains and you're successful, but you see three, four, five rungs up the ladder, you can see the dream job, or you're in the dream job, but you're not done, and now you want to maximize it. That's your audience. So you're in leadership, or you've got a successful company, but you want to do more. Well, who's doing it the way that you want to do it? Who do you respect? These could be competitors. These could be people that are in different industries, but people that you admire. Where are the places that people like you are going to grow? I mean, this is about growth. At the end of the day, if I'm not growing, I'm dying. So who are the right people in the right places for you in order to get where you want to go? Who are the types of people you need to be around? And what are the places that you need to be in? Are they conferences? Are they webinars? Those are places. Who are the people? Do you have a mentor in your life that you can go to and be really vulnerable with? And they love you and they've got wisdom, they've got knowledge, but even more importantly, they'll hold you accountable to your growth plan. Who are your peers? Who are your peers? I write about the mentors and peers in the book. Who are you hanging out with?

You're going to be like the five people you spend the most time with. You just are. So do you have some old buddies that you've known forever or a couple neighbors that you really like hanging out with? But every time you're around them, it's kind of 50% fun, but 50%, they suck the life out of you. Or they kind of. They kind of get you down because all they do is talk about how bad their life is, and they can't wait to get to the weekend to drink, and they can't stand being around their wife, and all they're looking forward to is vacation or going to Vegas and blowing. Blowing a bunch of money and losing a bunch of brain cells just to try to get through the remaining three months of the year.

Oh, man.

Who are your peers? Or are your peers people that, by their own example, are they pulling you almost like a gravitational force? Do they pull you into their sphere when you're around them? You go, oh, man, I love around, because they naturally pull me in and they make me want to be better because of their example. Do I have friends who are holding me accountable that will be willing to call me or push me? You know, do I have friends that are cheering for me? They're for me. They're not competing against me. They're cheering for me. You know, that's just two examples. Am I hanging around other professionals or am I. Am I. Am I paying attention to the professionals in my field that are at the top of the field? And I can't have lunch or coffee with them, but I can listen to their podcast. I can read their books. You know, I can. I can. I can learn from them through what they're doing publicly. Who are the other top producers in my field? They might be, again, competitors or just people that are killing it. And hey, am I willing to reach out to them? Am I willing to buy a plane ticket, spend a night in a hotel room, to be able to sit with them for 90 minutes at their office and say, hey, I admire what you're doing. I've seen you go from A to B and you're heading towards C. I want to get to C, but I'm an A and I'd love to just get some best practices. If I buy your lunch or I buy your golf round, will you dump on me? I mean, are you doing that? And if you're not putting yourself in proximity around the right people or in the right places, you are already getting passed by. I promise you. You just haven't realized it yet.

That rings so true for a lot of the folks listening here. A lot of folks will have online businesses, so I think our typical default to a bunch of these folks sometimes living behind the computer and not really exploring what's around or maybe picking up the phone or reaching out even. Because I know, even just. Just it's maybe a prideful type thing. I know you mentioned that earlier and you've also said it in the book. What are some ways that folks remember to, or strategies they can use to reach out and not have that prideful, like, I could just figure this out and do it myself. Kind of feel the Internet has all the answers. That's all I need.

Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I would start with the realization and put it on a mirror, put it on, on your closet wall, that nobody has ever done anything of any worth by themselves. They just haven't. I mean, Steve Jobs even said this. Have we ever met a more fiercely independent thinker in the business world than Steve Jobs? And yet you just can't do it alone. Somewhere, somehow, everybody has had a nudge of help, assistance, a connection, a teaching.

An encouragement. So you can't do it on your own. So swallow your pride and get out. And if you're going to sit behind the computer, that's fine. Get on YouTube, listen to a podcast, get some outside influence that is allowing you to learn to do and connect. And that's what proximity allows me to do, you know, and it ought to be a daily practice. I ought to be learning something. I ought to be doing something new, doing something different, challenging myself, if you will. And I need to be always connecting. I need to always be doing that. And so that would be my challenge is how are you putting yourself in proximity around people that will make you better and in places where you get an opportunity to learn something, do something, or connect with somebody. And if you're intentional about always learning and growing, then you'll never worry about progressing. You just never will.

I almost feel like having a podcast is a very sort of systematic way, especially an interview style podcast is a very systematic way to implement the proximity principle. I mean, one of our philosophies with the podcast is almost all of our guests, at least in our minds, is we're always trying to level up a little bit with our guests. We're always trying to bring guests on that are a little bit further along in their business journey than we are. So, so that we can sort of learn some of the ways they think and some of the strategies they use to get closer to their level. But as a byproduct, we are now, you know, we have a relationship with all the people that have ever been guests. We still reach out and talk to and, you know, refer people to and stay in communication with pretty much every guest we've ever had. So I almost feel like that is a Very systematic way to, you know, to have the proximity principle in action.

Well, it's exactly right. That is exactly what you guys are doing. There's no question about it. And you're getting a chance to learn and connect. And I would say even the act of having a podcast is doing something that makes you better, that builds your brand, that gets it out there. So, I mean, listen, there is no question about it. My first book was entitled One question, and the 34 people in the book, I couldn't believe I got them all. But it was because of a podcast that I was able to get access to them. I said, hey, I got a book I'm doing. It's just one question. It's a different question for everybody. I think you have the experience and the expertise to answer it. I want to send it to you. If you approve it. We cop on the phone. It's going to take less than 10 minutes, and we're in and we're out. And it was amazing, you know, and I've sat with some of the brightest men and women in the world, and I can't tell you how many times I felt like I didn't belong in the room. And yet it was huge for me, developing and for growing my brand and developing as a broadcaster. So, you know, I. I hate to get so excited about it, but. But I really. I can't get over this. I don't know why it took me so long to come up with the proximity principle. It's nothing new. You guys do it all the time. Every successful person I talk to goes, dude, this is great. I never thought about it, but that's what I did. I go, I know.

It's. It's. It. I. I'm so excited about it. Because if people really grasp how actually easy it is to practice, it doesn't mean your journey is going to be easy. But momentum and opportunity is easier than we make it seem in our heads and in our hearts. But if we just get in proximity, I'm telling you, it's like going to a train station and just waiting for the right opportunity to come along, because it's there. It will come along.

Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool, because I'm just nodding my head over here. Yeah, this is exactly it. And I think the proximity principle, even for folks who know they have done it, is an amazing read. And it's kind of like this freeing thing, you know, that it's always in your back pocket if you understand this is what's happening. Even though if you're Doing it kind of naturally. At least it's in your brain. Solidified. Here are the components that really make up this whole thing. So it's great to have as kind of that guide to just. Just know, hey, stick with this and.

Just trust the process.

It's going to happen.

That's exactly right. Yeah. Because my hope is for people who read it, they go, oh, yeah, okay. I've done this before.

Right.

In fact, I've done it a lot, you know, for folks, for some people. There's some people who've never done it, never use it, and it's going to be like a lightsaber to them. But for other people, it's going to be, oh, okay, great. Now I can actually be more intentional to do this. It's like I want to raise the antenna on people. Yeah. You know, it's like, you guys remember the original Robocop, you know?

Oh, yeah.

You know, or even the new version, you know, I want to turn people into that Robocop. When they're out there during the day doing their thing, they're scanning and they're identifying. Is that a person I need to be around or is this a place? You know what I mean? Or just looking at their industry or looking at their role going, if I want to be better, who do I need to be around? Yeah, if I. If I'm going to grow this company, what are the places that I, as the leader or my other leaders, we need to be in places. And, man, I tell you what, if we can turn on the antennas, it's going to be a game changer.

Yeah, man. Oh, it's so cool. Let's just get that exciting going, you know, get that excitement going. Be like the Jimmy Fallon. If that resonates, you know, just be excited. I know.

That's like, exactly right. Exactly.

Love it, man. Well, all right, so proximity principle, when it's out, where should folks go? Grab that.

Yeah, they could get it at. Kencolman.com is my website, of course, wherever books are sold, Amazon, it'll be everywhere. And, you know, it's. It's there for everybody. We got the audiobook, of course, as well, so you can get that, you know, as well, if you. I know of more and more podcast listeners. They're driving the audiobook business, which I love, you know, because when I'm on long road trips, I love to listen to books. So we'll have it in all the formats. And kencolman.com is where they can buy it, of course, and also connect with our radio show me on social media and all those good things.

Awesome. And what's the release date? One more time. It was May.

Yeah. May 13th is when it hits stores. And so if you're listening to this after May 13th, it's already out. Whatever format you want, and we appreciate anybody who's willing to give it a spin. And. And more important than reading it, I want you to practice it.

Yes. Yes. Awesome, Ken. Well, go grab that. We'll link everything up in the show notes like always, and we appreciate your time. Ken. This has been super cool, and you're hitting on so many points that Matt and I were just like, ah, we need to figure this out, or we've done it. And so, yeah, you shined a light on a good thing here.

Well, Matt and Joe, I appreciate you guys. You're doing good work. Keep doing it because we need you to do it. And I'm really grateful for being on your program. Thanks for having me.

You got it, man. We'll talk soon.

Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliffs Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice, simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.net find this episode that you just listened to, and give us your email address, and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

Go get it.