Kevin Rogers — Writing Great Hooks And Sales Copy

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float Shark with your boy, My boy, Matt Wolf. Joe Fear.

Hey, hey, hey, hey. It's Joe Fear here.

Hey, Joe Fear. Hi.

Hi. Matt Wolf.

Good to see you.

Yeah, hey, good to see you too. Yeah, good to hang out with you listening. It's a pleasure, especially you, Ryan.

I'm just assuming at least one of.

Our listeners is Ryan and Susan. Uh, yeah. So thank you very much. Or if we haven't named your name, thank you as well. This is the Hustle and Flinchart podcast. Welcome back to another awesome episode. Uh, today we are speaking to one of the top level, the highest, best known copywriter out there. The highest. I don't know, maybe he could be.

He didn't admit it on the episode, but. No, I'm just kidding.

Kevin Rogers, he's been around for a very long time. And, and this guy is the man when it comes to copy and messaging and just crafting, just this persuasive thing that you put out into the world that you can take anywhere you go. Doesn't have to be a written thing. It could be anything in your life. And he's mentored under the best. He continues to hold amazing events with the best and these veteran copywriters who are all of his buddies. And he's also a very talented stand up comedian, which is amazing. And you know, he's, he's walked the, or shared the stages with like Amy Poehler and a whole bunch of big names, you know, about SNL and stuff.

No, it's definitely a really interesting conversation because we do spend a little bit of time talking about that world of standup comedy and what life is like during that, you know, when you're doing that stuff as a career. But then we figure out, you know, how did Kevin transition from this standup comedy world into becoming a copywriter? Because I mean, they just seem like so far apart, like worlds apart as far as a career path. So we dug into that and one of the things that I think we realized about Kevin is that Kevin is just a master storyteller. And being a great storyteller, that benefits being a copywriter, that benefits being a creative writer, that benefits being a stand up comedian. Yeah. So, you know, that's, that's, that's kind of that link that I discovered is, man, this guy really knows how to command attention and tell a story that kind of sucks you in.

Yeah. No, so you'll get sucked into a lot of stories here. He's an amazing guy, very generous with his time and you're going to be. You're going to learn a lot of actionable blurps and bits from this whole thing mixed in with all these stories. So before you get started, though, make sure you definitely go check out the show notes page@evergreenprofits.com that's going to have all the. Just search for Kevin or find the podcast there, and you're gonna find a whole bunch of cool resources, some stuff that Kevin mentions, all the books and all that fun stuff. But we also have a cheat sheet, so that's free, totally free on there, and that'll kind of give you the Cliff Notes versions of all the cool stuff we chat about. And we do that for all the podcasts. So go there, check it out, and hey, you know, while you're at it, hit the subscribe button at itunes. That really help us out. And definitely it's. We'd appreciate it from the bottom of our hearts because we're trying to get this thing out to more people, and you could definitely help us with that.

If there's one thing that benefits this podcast more than anything else, it's literally just going to itunes and pressing the subscribe button. You know, more so than reviews, more so than anything else. Just press that subscribe button if you haven't already, please.

All right, thank you very much. Let's get into it.

Hey, Kevin, thanks so much for joining us. How you doing today?

Good, man. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

Yeah, no, we're excited about this one. In fact, I actually. I don't know if you actually remember this or not, but I actually interviewed you. I don't know, it's probably been four or five years ago with my co host at the time, Josh Bartlett for Beyond the Hype show.

I totally remember. It was a blast. You know what I remember about that one was we're just talking, having this great conversation, and I realized about 10 minutes in, oh, this is the show.

This is.

I was waiting, like, we just did now. We were, like, having this great conversation. Like, let's just hit the button, right? I don't know if. Did you guys do that all the time back then where it was just like. Yeah, we did.

We did. I think. I think you were early on in the show. You were probably one of our first, like, five guests when we first started that show up. And so in the beginning, we were just doing that. We would just hit record and just start the conversation. And, you know, there was always this point, like, 15 minutes in where our guests would Be like, holy shit, this is the show, isn't it? But.

But so we actually kind of felt bad about doing it. So after like maybe six, six or seven times, our email follow ups that went out to people said, just so you know, as soon as we start talking, we're recording. So we started to give people a warning. So you were kind of in the early guinea pig phase with that show.

I like it. It's better. Yeah, it's a funny moment. I've always wondered about that. It's like, did this guys do that on purpose or did they just not know that you're supposed to actually give an intro?

Yeah, we actually stole that from the Nerdist podcast. Chris Hardwick, he always does that. He just, we. When his guests sit down, they're just, they're recording from the second they sit down. And so I always, I listen to that podcast a lot, although I don't think they release them anymore. But I used to listen to that podcast a lot. And when I was listening to it, like, there was always this point, like eight minutes in where the guests would always be like, oh, this, this is the show. Right?

And so it's happening.

So Josh and I were like, I love that concept because when we're doing our pre interviews before we hit record, you know, it's. Everybody's just kind of loose and talking and it's friendly. And then as soon as you hit record, everybody goes into like, okay, I'm in presentation mode now, you know?

Yeah, exactly. Right? Yeah. Yeah, that's. What do you guys listen to Mark Marin's podcast?

Yeah. Wtf?

God. You know, I don't know if you get this. When I listen to that show, I go, why is it so good? Why can I not stop listening? You know? But I think part of it is that.

Well, I have to admit, I usually listen to him talk to people that either knew a little bit or I know that he had a relationship with. I haven't heard him interview someone like Lorne Michaels or, you know, someone like that where maybe it's more straight up, but there's always this thing to be settled between him and the guest. Right?

Yeah.

It's like half the show is, I thought you hated me. Oh, I thought you hated me. You know, and it's just, it's funny because most people don't have those conversations. You know what I mean? They just go on thinking the other person hates them.

That's true. No, I've listened to some WTF episodes, come to think of it, where, you know, in the conversation. The guest is always saying, you can delete this if you want, but I have a bone to pick with you.

He's like, hell, no. We're leaving that in.

And he just leaves it all in. I mean. Yeah, yeah, no, that's a great podcast. I think what I like about that is it's, you know, it's usually a lot of comedians, but it's usually the backstory. It's the, you know, sometimes they're real funny episodes. But for the most part, he actually goes deep with people that are normally. You know, you normally hear the funny side. You don't hear the, like, real life. Who is this person when they're not on? You know, that's what I think I love about that show.

I love that he can also do that with musicians, too. Right. I remember hearing James Hetfield on there and them talking about bands they love growing up and him calling them out on some of the same stuff. So what's with the feud with Megadeth or whatever band it is, you know? And. Yeah, it's just. I guess people know that if you're gonna go on that show, you have to really be real. Like, they. They seem to know that at least they've been prepped that well. Plus, they have to go to this dude's garage.

I was gonna say they're in person.

Yeah. Yeah. That must lower your pretentiousness a bit, too, you know, so.

And nowadays, you're like. You're sitting in a chair that Obama sat in.

I was gonna say, yeah, right.

Boy, that was incredible.

Somehow you got the president to go to your janky garage.

Well, let's dive into your backstory. So anybody who's listening to the show that maybe isn't familiar with you yet.

Let'S introduce them to you. How, you know, how did you get into the world of marketing and copywriting and what you do now?

Yeah, man. So I did stand up in. I dropped out of high school as a restless junior and thought, you know, man, if I could just bag groceries all day instead of only at night, man, I'd have it made right.

Simple.

I just wanted to be an adult. And so I was. I didn't know what I was doing. And I quickly was like, oh, I don't. I was detailing cars, I think, when I was, like, 18. And I'm like, man, this will suck if I'm doing this at 30. And I was funny, you know, I was like.

I was the funny kid in my group because I was really skinny and awkward, and I didn't have any other way to communicate with women than to. I found out I could make them laugh, and that felt really great. So sort of my little defense mechanism. And I got pretty good at it. I was very analytical about why things would work and why they wouldn't. Even if I was, like, doing the best of Sam Kenison in a. At a. At a house party, you know, I would obviously never did anybody's material on stage, but that's how I learned was, you know, doing, like, what was popular. And I would be really analytical. I lay in bed that night going, man, why did that Howie Mandel thing not work tonight?

Wow.

You know, and I was like, oh, it's because I tried to. I did it after the Seinfeld thing, and that was, like, too similar a premise or, you know, and so I think by the time I actually did an open mic night, I was more. More advanced than the average person who kind of does it on a dare or something, you know.

Yeah.

And, yeah, so I ended up being the house emcee. That was the really lucky break. I realize now, looking back, that, man, stage time is just the most valuable thing in your life as a. As a young comic. And so I was after, you know, four or five months into my first time I'd ever done it, I won the house MC gig in a contest. And that mean I was on stage, you know, I was doing eight shows a week.

And, you know, every week after week after week and got to open for, like, Tommy Chong and, you know, some great acts. And, oh, my God, it just so, it got good. And so by 19, I was on the road full time, like, doing stand up. And by 23, I moved left the Southeast and moved to Chicago and did some incredible gigs there with. I was mentioning to you guys with the Upright Citizens Brigade. And I got to know, you know, Amy Poehler a little bit. And Tina Fey was just. Had just gotten a staff writing job at snl.

Maybe she had become the head writer. Actually, when I was there, I remember it was a big deal. She was the first female head writer. And, you know, it's just incredible to.

Look back and then.

You know, life happens and you go, I just knew, dude. Like, I didn't have a lot of wisdom or even certainly no business sense at that age. But I would work with these comics who were really, really good. I mean, they. They just would kill the room. And I thought they were tremendously funny. But he also knew they kind of weren't gonna make it, right? They weren't gonna get that sitcom. They weren't gonna be in movies and they, you know, weren't. And. But they were. And I was thinking, man, if they're not gonna make it, like what? I don't want to. I mean, they were like in their 50s and they were pretty bitter, you know, and they're. And I'm like, damn, I don't want to be doing these same gigs, man, when I'm. When I'm 50, you know. And so long story short, lots of amazing twists and turns. I just came to realize that some people need it, man. Like, I have friends who have been doing this longer than me and are still out there. That is how they make their living on the road. Trying like hell to get, you know, some break along the way. Have had breaks and it didn't turn out the way it could have. And now they're, you know, 52, 53, and they're older. Look, man, you know, older white guy is not the number one genre for stand up comedy. You know, you better have made your mark. You better be Jon Stewart or somebody.

You know, the opposite of Kevin Hart.

Well, I was just going to mention Kevin Hart because I read his book and it was fascinating because it's exactly what you're talking about. It's just like doing all these shows. I mean, he similar kind of state, but I was like, damn, this is a rough gig to do, man.

But have you ever seen that, that Adam Carolla movie? I'm drawing a blank on the name, but there's a movie with Adam Carolla and it's a movie about him just on the road. And it's like, it's almost like Groundhog Day where he's just like doing gigs, doing gigs. He's like forgetting what city he's in. And I don't know, I can't think of the name of it, but it was a really interesting movie about like kind of the, the real life of what stand up comedy really looks like for 90% of comics.

Yeah, nobody should show that though, right? That's terrible.

Just makes you depressed.

That's so depressing.

It was a depressing movie. It wasn't a comedy, surprisingly.

Yeah, yeah, there's a, there's a funny joke I heard somebody. You guys know the book story by Robert McKee the Great? It's about screenwriting.

Oh yeah, yeah, I heard of it.

Never read it.

It's really great. But, but. And he's a notorious asshole, you know. But I did hear, and I could vouch for that because I took his workshop in Chicago in like 99. But he, I'll never forget, he told the funniest story about.

His wife thinking before they really met comedy writers. She's like, oh, you know, we're having that dinner party and I'm afraid, like, the guest list is a little, a little blase. So she invited like three comedy writers to like fill in the gaps. It was like twice as depressing as it would have been, you know, like, no, not one of them said a funny thing the whole night. They were so macabre.

It's not like if you've ever seen Dick Van Dyke, you know, people think like, that's what the comedy. The writers room looks like. You know, they're shucking and jiving and breaking out in song and dance and shit. Ain't like that.

Yeah, maybe 1% of the time, that's about it. So how'd you make that transition? So it sounds like you had a lot of this, like, forward thinking where you're like, nope, fuck that, not doing that. This looks like hell. What did it look like?

That's all I had. That was, all I had was like, I don't. I only knew what I didn't want, right? And I knew I couldn't be on the road anymore. I was really burned out of that. I couldn't do the Ramada Inn lounge in Warner Robbins, Georgia again, you know.

You didn't like the muffins and the weird EG they give you?

Yeah, it's just eight rednecks just, you know, yelling Free Bird and stuff. I don't.

I don't even have a guitar. Why are you yelling at me?

But so, yeah, and then, you know, like, I didn't know what I would do, dude. I was doing what I call no resume jobs.

Because I had no resume. I literally had, you know, high school dropout, stand up comedian, and now I'd love to be a valet parker at you're a nice hotel, you know, and trust me. And so I, I wasn't getting, I couldn't get jobs. And so what was still in Chicago. I literally did the thing that you can never admit to other bartenders, but I went to bartending school. You remember I hear those radio commercials, ABC bartending school. Start your career today. You know, I was like, wow, that makes sense. Like I, I'm sure I can tend bar. And how else would you learn to make drinks? You know, but so I gotta say, you know, it's funny now because we're in this industry where so many people have courses and make these big promises. Right. But I gotta say, everything they promised in that damn 30 second commercial, they backed up. You know, they taught me how to make drinks and then they helped me get jobs. They had a really good job placement service. But the funny thing was, dude, like, there was jobs I did not belong in. I remember one of the first gigs I got was at like a high end steakhouse in Chicago. And these. I was like, supposed to be pouring port wines like through a cheesecloth and these things. And I. I can't even pronounce the name of it. You know, it was just like it's some. Some car salesman's trying to show off for his girlfriend, you know, And I. It was terrible and love it. So. But, you know, I. You manage and you figure stuff out. So I was doing stuff like bartending and then I was a bellhop. And I realized now, again, like, stand up, all those things were kind of preparing me for a life in business and in freelancing. And then, you know, somebody, I was working with, an old comedy friend of mine who only hired me because he trusted me. He knew I didn't know anything about his business, which was timeshare resale. Right? Yeah. Really intense.

And I learned marketing and I learned business from him. He was a really hardcore guy. Still is. But he taught me a lot and basically said, you're in charge. And threw me the keys to his company after like six months. And I, you know, it was trial by far. Yeah, he. He paid me enough to make. It was like golden handcuffs. I couldn't leave. Right. It was. And thank God, because I learned. And I started to develop the business gene and really get excited about sales. And I always loved writing. So a friend of mine turned me on to copywriting and yeah, I was hooked immediately.

I love that you started in timeshares. Not like started, but kind of, because that is like. I know Matt just recently went through his first timeshare, like, presentation.

Oh, God.

And I warned him because I'm a. My wife and I are just suckers. We bought two of them. I mean, luckily we sold one of them, but st's like, dude, if you get. If you make a really nice looking vacation in front of me, I'm gonna buy that shit.

But going through it, I warned him at. And I was like, dude, they're gonna do this, this, this, this. They're fucking good. Beware. And Matt came back. He's like, that was the best copywriting and salesmanship and marketing I've ever seen, dude.

I was like mentally taking notes during this whole Thing going. Oh, what he said there was brilliant. You know, like.

You'Re going like, how. How am I considering this at this moment, seems like the best thing I could possibly do with my money. But I know better, right? Yeah, it's weird, really.

Only 13 grand, you're gonna break it up over 12 months for me?

That's how they hooked me. I had no money at the time. Wasn't even married with my, you know, now wife.

Yeah. So cool. So you learn from that. That's a good place to start. Sucks for a lot of others, but.

Yeah, I don't know how they do it. And so, yeah, we had it worse, though. We were talking to the people, like you said you sold one, which is a minor miracle in itself because we were legitimately trying to help people sell them. There was a lot of really scammy timeshare resale companies, you know, but this company was really trying to do it right. And that's why it learned. It taught me to be indignant because we were in an industry of scumbags, really trying to do it right. And it was my job to. One of my jobs was to protect our BBB rating. And so I would go to. Anytime somebody would file a complaint, I would respond to it and I would go to arbitration with them. And I never once lost because. And what I learned about that from that was, okay, if I'm going to essentially go to court to defend that we. That this sale was legit, then I'm going to make damn sure that these guys and girls on the phone are saying what they're supposed to say. Right. We would record calls and monitor calls and make sure they stuck to the script and verify every sale, you know, because these guys start pitching heat and I get on a. One of these calls and, you know, we would literally tape the calls. And so if I had to, I would just play the call. And, you know, it gave me a lot of empathy for. For all parties involved, the business owner and the customer who felt wronged. But, you know.

It'S something I do to this day with copy chief, where it's like, let's double check and triple check, like every single thing we say. Don't get. Don't get all in the heat of the moment of writing the copy and start promising things we can't deliver on. Right. Like make sure it's 100% legit. You know, the truth. It can be just as sexy if you're good at what you do.

Yeah. Where do you normally see where people slip up, you know, Copywriters, you know, is it like, the guarantee or is there just. Just all this.

Well, copywriter or salespeople. Because, like, in the context of the timeshare, I mean, what. What sort of mistakes do you, like, make you cringe when you see them or hear them?

Yeah, well, you know, I mean, there's. Some people are just downright nefarious and will say anything. Right, True.

Yeah. Yeah.

But I think that in copywriting, yeah. The guarantees get a little wonky. Um, it's gotten better. I don't know how long you guys have been around this industry. I know, Matt, you've been around quite a while.

About 12 years or so.

Yeah. Joe and I started our business in 07, so.

Okay. Yeah. So you guys have been around as long as I have it. It's got. I think it's gotten a lot better. Right. You know, I think people know now that you have to be transparent and you want customers for life. It used to be a lot of, like, forced continuity and crap like that, Right. That I don't see people. I hope not. I haven't worked in biz op in a long time, so maybe it's no.

Better, but it's gone away for the most part.

Okay, that's good. But, yeah, those are the kind of things where you just start to get desperate and resorting to things, you know, like, some things are like a gray area where it's. It's a. It's a. It's a judgment call. Right. Like, you know, cart clothes. Oh, amazing. Cart reopened two days later. You know, that kind of stuff where.

It sucks when you legitimately want to do it. I'm promoting my live event right now, and we're constantly learning in this business about how to be better and not forgetting the fundamentals. But I went to my members first because I knew there'd be the most excitement with them, obviously, and they get the best price for the live event. And last year, it was just, like this phenomenal success. And I made the stupid mistake of thinking that the natural momentum and buzz about last year would let everybody in the community know that this event was happening. Right. And all I had to do was kind of mention that tickets are on sale now, and we sold about the same amount as we did last year. And I'm going, wait a minute. You know, we should have sold twice as many. Right. In that theory. And then I look back, and I'm like, I barely promoted it. Like, I didn't treat it like an actual launch to my members. You know, I made the Stupid assumption of forgetting or thinking that it didn't need to be sold. Like everything needs to be sold.

Yep.

And so I was like, listen, you know, so suddenly I had to like, what I wanted to do was it only seems fair that I extend the discount deadline because I legitimately did not do a good enough job of getting the word out. But then that's not fair to do to the people who did buy under the deadline. Right, right. And so you have to do things like, okay, second chance at it, here's a different discount and it goes to this date and I'm going to do my job this time and making sure you know about it. So those things like that probably wouldn't feel wonky if other people didn't do them as manipulation. Right. So I don't know if that answers the question, but those are the, those are the kind of mistakes I think when people use when what legitimately once was a fair, a reasonable, you know, reason to extend a deadline or to make a special offer and they use it as a, you know, a falsehood.

Yeah, yeah. Or kind of like the limited quantity thing. Obviously if you have something physical and you legitimately have a limited quantity, you know, sometimes it is tempting on a sales page to say, look, we're only going to sell 50 of these and just kind of let it, let it fly.

Right, Right. Yeah, I love, I love, yeah, I love when their ebook's about to run out. Right?

Yeah, we're running out of copies.

Yeah. We're almost out of this ebook.

Yeah.

So going back to like stand up days, how does that, how do you find that influencing your copy now? The way that you write or maybe how you teach?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, good question. I don't know about the writing quite as much.

I'll tell you what's interesting is coming back. So, you know, I did it in for 10 years. I was away for almost 12 years and I really thought it would be something I was never do again. And then my friend, a guy named Billy Gardell, who is the co star of a show called Mike and Molly with Melissa McCarthy, who's one of my best friends and we started together.

So he was playing the theater here and he challenged me to come open for him in front of 2,000 people. And I hadn't been on stage in 12 years and so I did it and it was amazing. And, and so that was the real interesting thing was coming back to stand up and sort of reigniting that part of my brain. Right. And being in the culture of it again, being around quirky, funny people, which, yeah, there's plenty of those in copywriting too. But, you know, people who live for the laugh.

That definitely influenced.

Just overall my confidence. I felt whole again, you know, it's not that I became Rip Rorn funny overnight, but I felt a little more.

I would go for the joke more often. I would take chances more often. Right. Whereas before, I think I thought of myself a little bit more as a straight up business owner, where it was like, yeah, I don't want to take the risk of offending somebody, so I'll just. I had a stronger filter, I think, before, you know.

Well, it's interesting because, you know, you're in this position now where you have a very successful career outside of comedy. So when you get up on stage, you have a little bit less to lose than the first time around.

Oh, big time. That's the biggest difference. You know, I always say that, you know, on the worst nights, it's still fun, you know, it was. I still wouldn't have traded it. And, you know, when I say worst nights, it's like, nobody throws stuff anymore or threatens to kill me like they used to, you know, but even if I just. I'm not in the moment and I don't have a great set, I'm like, I still. That was so fun. And it was, like, just great to be here. And if I have a great set, it feels just as good as it ever did. Right? So. And you're right, Matt. I figured out that my. The difference is my identity isn't wrapped up in it anymore. You know, it used to be all I ever did. It's what I was. I was a comedian. And if I sucked and had a bad show the next, I couldn't wait to get on stage the next night to make, you know, to reset the gauge. And now it's just like, oh, well, what can I learn from that? Cool. I'll do better next time. You know, that's such a cool, like.

Way to think about it. It's almost like, no shit's given. Let's just throw it all out there and see what happens. But almost I could. I'm just thinking, like, copy, because it's one of the biggest things I know. That block, Matt and I, and probably most every single person is kind of getting out of your head, like, almost overthinking the stuff you're trying to tell either in a video, whatever it might be. Sales copy. Do you think that kind of helps you kind of use your voice, your natural voice a little bit More. Take that filter away. Just to kind of step out a little bit more and something like that.

Yeah, I think it does for sure. But I will say, I wish I could answer that question with a big, solid yes and give you some examples, but there is a strange thing I've noticed where I have different voices for different things. Like when people see me do stand up. Like, Dean Jackson came to that show with Billy, and he sat in the front row and he said to me after, he's like, I didn't know that guy. You know, like, he didn't literally. He's like, I'd never met that guy who came out on stage, you know, not that I was mean or some crazy different person. It's just that he's like, you're. You're. The look in your face, your vocal cadence, you were totally kind of a different person, but still you. But this other version of you. And in copy, I'm. I don't know why, dude, but I do like to have fun, and if I see a joke, I'll go for it. But I don't sit down thinking I'm gonna write something funny, you know, Sure. I lean towards the more sincere kind of heartfelt stuff. When I write email, I don't know why. I think it's because when I started writing them, that's the place I was in. And I guess it's anchored that way. So, yeah, totally remind you to be yourself and have your voice and be strong with it. But when I read my. Say, you know, copy or stuff I write to my. My list, it doesn't sound at all like my comedic voice.

Yeah. And I guess it doesn't have to be funny. It's just enough to make you or allow you to kind of free yourself to flow rather than over architect something you're writing.

Well, one of the things we've realized with copy, and, you know, this is. This is going to get a little selfish here, but what are podcasts for?

So one of the things we run into with copy is when whenever we look at somebody else's copy, we're actually pretty good at saying, all right, here's kind of some tweaks I would make. And here's. Here's what I would do with that. And we're good at giving feedback to other people on copy. When it comes to writing our own copy for the products that we created that we spent our, you know, our time making, we just completely blow at writing the copy. Like, we just have some sort of mental block around our own copy. So I guess my question for you is what. What sort of advice do you have for that kind of thing?

Hire a copywriter.

I guess that's the simplest solution, isn't it?

Because I have to do the same thing, dude. It's. I don't know what it is, but everybody's the same. Like every copywriter who decides to create their first product, you know, sometimes the copy's really good.

But everybody struggles to write their. Their own stuff the most, and it really does.

Make it. It's just worth bringing in a copywriter, even to maybe chief your stuff and go, yeah, I don't know. We've talked three times. This doesn't sound like you or. Right. You know, here. I'll tell you one way to do it, though, man. Just get on the phone, like, once you have the offer together.

Get on the phone with somebody that you have good chemistry with, who you feel like really likes you and believes in you, right? And you feel safe with, and just record a conversation of you telling them all about this offer. And, you know, you can guide it a little bit, like, have a checklist of all the things you want to tell them about, but just get that genuine enthusiasm about it across and see how you talk about it. And then send that over to TEMI or Rev and take out the best parts, get rid of all the ums and ahs. And that's probably a pretty good draft to copy, actually.

I really like that because every time Matt and I are talking about just whatever it is that we're promoting, it just flows. But then you freaking get right behind the computer in front of the computer and start typing. You're just like. That doesn't sound quite know. I forgot that one piece that I was so jacked up about, but now it just doesn't seem right. Seems boring. Yeah.

Yeah. That's why I literally. I forget to use my own invention sometimes, you know, But I have a thing called the 4x6 copywriting formula that it's probably the training I created that I use myself the most. Like, every time I'm stuck and I'm like, damn, where do I start this? I just go, oh, you know, I have it by. It's 10 parts of a sales letter, essentially. And I just literally write out the first section that the head I literally printed, you know, posted launch sales letters that say this in the format. So it'll say like, what is it? You know, and then I'll talk about it. Who am I, and why should you trust me? You know? But it's just like suddenly having a framework and knowing everything that needs to be said and then getting the bullet points of that down succinctly. I feel like that then gives you the freedom to sit down and write with some flow because you don't have to think about, is this the right thing to say right now? You're just. Just, you know, writing it now. It's conversational, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess if we were to expand on that there. If someone were to write themselves, and we'll get into hiring a copywriter too, because I'm curious about that. I think you have some resources. What are, what are a handful of things that people really should try to nail down as a business owner or someone just trying to sell anything, you know, is there. Are there specific elements that they should kind of really get good at?

Yeah, well, you know, obviously, like, you know, hooks. Hooks are important. It sort of depends what market you're in and what you're. What you're selling. Right? There's, I think, the first thing to be conscious of. I'm sure you guys have read Eugene Schwarz and anybody who's in the copy has read that book. But just the idea of understanding your market sophistication, you know, are they. Are they problem. Are they very problem aware? Are they very solution aware? And I use a thing called yellow, green, yellow and red zone problems in that, you know.

Most of us exist in the yellow zone with our problem. We're solving yellow zone problems, which is, you know, weight loss, right? Or financial stuff. It's like, life's okay, you're not bleeding, but wouldn't it be better if. Or isn't it finally time to lose that last £10 or whatever, right? So you're trying to get people from a. Yeah, this matters to me, but it's not urgent. Too urgent.

A green Zone problem is something that you're not even aware of or that bothered by, but once it's pointed out to you, you're like, hell, yeah, I want that, right? Like, a great example of that is Dollar Shave Club. Like, nobody was walking around pissed off about paying too much for razors, but the minute he pointed it out and did it in a funny way, you're like, fuck, yeah, I'm tired of paying 30. Why am I paying $30 for razors, right? And now this guy made you laugh about it and made you aware, and you're like, please take my money. Let's see how this goes. And when you have a. When you're selling a Green Zone product, that's when you can really have fun and inject comedy and do those things. And of course, a red zone problem is it barely needs copy. Like, you know, this is such a serious issue. Like, just tell me who to get. Who's the best person I can get to save my life right now? Right.

Yeah.

Refer me to your oncologist, who's your divorce attorney, those type of things. So just sort of understanding, like, what. What is the severity of the scenario where we're even discussing here? And then, you know, taking a very empathetic approach to understanding your avatar, as we hear all the time. And then. And then just. Then it's time to go to the fundamentals and just make sure that you tick off all the parts of the. Of the, you know, the natural progression of a sales argument where people bring open loops to it. And if you don't close those loops, their brain won't let them continue, you know?

Yeah.

Make sure you close those loops. And then. And then, of course, mastery level, which is oftentimes not needed. But if you are a copywriter or if you're in the really serious trenches of financial newsletters or alternative health products that are very competitive and saturated markets, that's where you get to, like, John Carlton, Paris Lampropolis level of mastery, where they scrutinize every single word and every single piece of punctuation. And you'll be doing that for life.

Yeah. You mentioned Paris. Actually, we forgot about him. We had dinner with him not too long ago, actually, in Chicago.

Oh, yeah.

It's exactly what you said.

Great guy. Great guy.

He is. Yeah. He's really funny. No, that's helpful. I love that. Because I think starting taking kind of like a temperature of what you're dealing with at the very beginning. I haven't really heard that analogy. Which is perfect. It's a great place to start. Avatar. People have heard about them, but without knowing the severity, you're still flying blind with your approach and angle.

Yeah. Or, you know, look, you can't be flippant in the face of trauma. Right. And you can't be way too serious. And when there's room to let loose and talk real and have fun, you know, so, yeah, like you said, finding that temperature and. And having that conversation is critical.

Yeah. Now, so I have a question. I know. So you submitted some. You sent us a document with some of the stuff that we could talk about, and there's one that a couple that really piqued our interest, that we wanted to dive in real quick. And one of them was, how would somebody Actually figure out their hook, because I think most people kind of stay very surface level, very feature, you know, focused on the feature. How do you go about. What sort of process do you have for figuring out hooks for offers?

Yeah, yeah, man. I mean, that's one of those that we could do 10 episodes on and probably still not have, you know, have it done. But again, it really starts with what we just said. It's like the first thing you have to do is.

Know the market. Like, know what's been used as hooks already. Right. Like, that's the most critical to see. Okay.

You know, let's just like, like, like health supplements, for instance. It's such a competitive market that every. Not only. Not only is every ailment been covered, and, you know, there's been the promise of this miracle. They can't say cure, but solution that you have to start getting down to the nitty gritty of each ingredient of the. Of the. Of the compound, and then you have to.

Find some golden little nugget of research that you can turn into an interesting and new hook. Right? So speaking of Paris, one of his. Man, I had. I literally found a hard copy of it yesterday. I'm looking around because. Because I. I'd love to read it to you.

Yeah, no, no worries.

Hang on one second. It's worth looking for.

He's going to find Paris's book, I think something written down.

Yeah, no, I have this printed. I think Paris is. Yeah, I got it right here. I found it. Okay. This is Paris and Propolis. So this is.

A supplement for men's.

Potency. Right. And as you know, a very competitive market. And so Paris found this research about a Chinese emperor.

Kang Zi, and he read this story that he was required to. He had his harem, and he had to.

Please them, right? He had to service these women. It made it sound like everything you've thought about having a harem is admitted. They feel like hell to me. Right? Yeah, but it's work. It's actually. I'm exhausted. Yeah. Somebody. You know. But. So this is the headline of the ad. And this became a huge control. Every night, Chinese emperor Kang Zhi was required to have sex with nine women from his harem. And he was required to satisfy each and every one of them. Here's how he did it, right? Like, you know, how do you. If you're struggling to even be able to perform, how are you not reading this? You know? And so, I mean, that's a hook, right? Like.

Oh, yeah.

So oftentimes in the. In the, in the most competitive markets, you have to just go so deep on the research and start putting things together. There's another great way to do it, a book that all copywriters swear by, high level copywriters called A Technique for Producing Ideas by James Webb Young. It's actually out of copyright, it's been around forever, but it's just a little 50 page book and it teaches you how to come up with ideas. And essentially the way to do it is to just start combining things that don't seem like they would go together, right? So you make, you do all your product research and that's the thing that we all, that's level playing ground. Like everybody.

If you're dedicated, can get the same product research. But then there's the people who go even further. Like my friend Marcella Allison is another great, great a list copywriter. If she's writing about.

Incontinence, she will go to the adult diaper aisle at the grocery store and start chit chatting with the women shopping for diapers there, you know what I mean? Because she just wants to really, really understand.

And so it's that level of dedication at the highest levels, at the everyday levels. Again, that book.

Producing Ideas, a technique for producing Ideas, man, just like list out all the features and the benefits and all the research around it. Be conscious of what's been promised already. You got to find a unique angle and then make a list in another column of all the things that are just sort of like rattling around your cranium. Like things that recent books you read that you really liked or some weird fact that you came across or some bizarre hobby you have, right? And just start listing all these things and then just start staring at those two columns and going, what if I, what if I added this to that and brought in some of this and then suddenly, you know.

You know, the decline of the value of the American dollar becomes the end of America, becomes the apocalypse. You know what I mean? And that's where you get these big ideas that when well executed, can, you know, make $50 million.

Yeah.

And it doesn't even need to be something that's unique to your product if you're putting your own spin and hook on it. Because the thing that comes to mind for me, like instantly is like the scene in Mad Men where they're trying to sell cigarettes and somebody says like mentions that they're toasted and they're like, oh, they're toasted. And they're like, yeah, but all the cigarette companies toast them and they're like, so what? We'll focus on it, you know, but it. It kind of seems like it. You don't even need that unique thing if it's sort of a commodity item. If you could find that sort of research where you put your own twist.

On it, that's 100% right. There's a. One of my favorite articles in this whole industry is called.

How to find your.

Capo diastro bar by a copywriter named Bud Williams. And he tells the story of when he was in this sort of. He had to write about a piano, and it wasn't even. It wasn't a Steinway. It was like he couldn't find any reason to get excited about this piano, right? And so he finally goes to the factory where they make them, and the woman mentions something about, oh, the piano weighs more than any other piano, by, like, hundreds of pounds or something. And he's like, well, why does it weigh so much? She says, well, the. She says something about, oh, that's why the. The. The piano at the Met is our brand, and it's been there since, you know, 100 years or something, right? And he's like. And she mentions how much it weighs. Why does it weigh so much? She goes, oh, that's the Capo d' astro Bar. He goes, what's that? She goes, well, it's a thick metal bar that braces the piano together so it never goes out of tune. And he's like, what? And he goes, can you show? And so he's. Now he's, like, on his back underneath the piano, like, looking at this thing, and he realizes that's his hook. That's why if you want, this piano lasts forever and rarely goes out of tune. And that was his hook. And that's what made the ad.

Damn, it seems so cool. It almost just seems like a fun exercise to list all those features or benefits that you can think of from your research and then just list out any random thing that's in your head or that you read. I'm sure copywriters I know are just avid researchers, readers, connectors.

Well, I mean, if you read a lot of the copywriting books, I've probably not read nearly as many as you have, but I've read a handful. And it seems like the general consensus is that most of the effort is in the research phase, not the writing phase.

100%. Yeah. What's that old thing about?

If I had a day to chop down a tree, I'd spend the first 23 hours sharpening the ax or whatever it is.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's exactly right.

It's exactly what it is. Because the truth is, this is the secret of the business. It really isn't the writing part. Right. It's. Yeah, you do want to hone that and, you know, many, many, many drafts. But it really is the research in understanding how to identify a big idea when you see it. And then it just takes a village. You know, every writer has a chief or a couple of chiefs. Like nothing. As we say in copy chief, nobody writes alone. No great piece of copy you've ever read was written in a vacuum.

Yeah. Explain chief really quick, just so if listeners don't understand what a chief is in. Soul thing.

Yeah. So a copy chief is in a traditional environment, like at a publishing house. So you'll have a team of copywriters, and then you have a chief. The chief is the person who looks at all. They approve big ideas, and they look over drafts and they say, this part's weak. Go rewrite this part. Or this hook isn't quite playing out the way we thought it would. So they're basically the managing editor of the copy, so to speak. And, yeah, that's what a chief does. And that's why we call our community Copy Chief, because.

The premise is that we're all chiefing each other. Everybody needs a chief. And if you're. A lot of times when you're freelancing, it's just you, like, you know, it's you and the. And the entrepreneur, the business owner, and there's no chief. You're just relying on each other's best instincts. So to have a community where there's a lot of, you know, writers of all experience levels and experience in all different niches, to be able to weigh in and give you feedback as you go is super valuable.

Yeah, well, this might be a perfect segue into there. But how would you suggest, folks, if they're looking for a copywriter.

What should they be looking for? Maybe where and kind of how much should they be looking to spend? Or at least, you know, the structure of things.

Sure, yeah. I mean, that's what I've really dedicated the last two years of my life to. And I, you know, didn't expect that to be my life. Right. I never thought I'd become the king connector, you know, of business owners and copywriters. But it's again, like, we. We're constantly discovering ourselves as we go. And I. I just love both parties so much. I. I get it. I've been both. And. And the answer is what you should be looking for is, man, so many things, but the, the main ones are super inquisitive. You want a copywriter. When you get on the phone with them, never make the mistake of thinking.

You just want to get this over with, or you want a copywriter who says the right things and you're just going to write them a check and then hope for the best. It's a relationship, very much a relationship. And so you want to actually like your copywriter as much as possible. You don't have to have perfect chemistry, but if you feel something's a little off when you're talking to them, there's a chance that that's going to be the same thing in the copy because.

They'Re representing you for the most. Usually they're writing as you in your voice. Right. So you want them to be grilling you, asking you a ton of questions. Super inquisitive people. You want to. It's a really good sign when they start coming up with ideas just even in the conversation. And I say this with the caveat that a lot of writers are shy and socially awkward. Right. So I hate to say, hey, you know, look, they don't need to be your new best friend, but you should. But they should definitely be super inquisitive and almost aggressive in how much information they want from you. Because like you just said, it really is the research. And then of course, you want to see samples and make sure that they can write in a voice. You know, it's never your perfect voice as if you said it, but it's oftentimes an optimized version of your voice. Make sure. And here's a really good tip. Look, especially if it's a really big important project, don't like, do a test project of some kind first. So if you meet a copywriter that you really like and you have an existing sales letter for the product, hire them first just to do a critique of the existing sales letter. Right. Like, you know, pay them to pay you their full attention and show you what's inside their brain. How do they see your copy? And when you see their review, are you seeing things you wouldn't have seen? Are they affirming things that you suspected? Right. Those are really good ways to verify that what you feel is correct about this. Being your best copywriter.

I love that.

Yeah. And you know, even for a high end copywriter, you can get a critique for, you know, like a thousand bucks, 800 bucks. Especially if you're transparent. Say, look, I'd love to Hire you. But I want to. Want to see your brain work. Right. Let's make sure we're a match. How much for a critique? Let's start there. And if they, like, if they want to work with you, they'll very often do it. And, you know, sometimes they nail it so hard you can just apply their changes and get a little bump while you're waiting for their first draft.

You know what I mean?

This is really cool too.

That's what I'm thinking. Because, I mean, that's like what Matt was mentioning. I forget if we were on the air or not, you know, if we were recording. But how that's kind of like a thorn in our side is copywriting for ourself. And the critique is just a natural thing. It's like, hey, well, let's put in some trusted hands here.

Well, I've also had some sort of nightmare experience. Experience is hiring copywriters. Those were my own mistakes. But the very first time I ever hired a copywriter, just to give you an example, I found somebody for 500 on the warrior forum to write copy for me. It didn't end well.

Go figure.

Yeah.

Wasn't he like threatening you after that too?

Oh, yeah, he threatened lawsuits against me. We went back and forth.

Oh, man, it's. I'll tell you, I, I get so I can't go on any of the other groups or anything and, you know, because I care too much about everybody involved, you know, and I hate that really good copywriters get lumped in with people who treated you like you got treated, man. Yeah, but you know, because it keeps people from wanting to pursue a better, A better option. But. And that answers your question about how much you should be paying right there.

Right?

Don't do that. Critique maybe, but not for full blown.

Right? Yeah. And look, you know, here's the thing. Here's the other. I'll give you another trick. Like, you know, if a copywriter is excited about your product, your, Your niche and you, then they want to work with you and they want to make it work so you can get really creative with the, with the agreements. You know, it doesn't have to be this huge lump of money up front where like, that's all the risk is on you. It shouldn't be that way. They should be willing to accommodate a fair and sensible budget to get the work done. And then a fair. You should be willing to accommodate a fair and sensible revenue share when the thing succeeds. You know, it's. It's not complicated. And I guess that's one thing I want everybody to know is there is no menu to pull from. Maybe it'd be nice if there was, but the truth is, when you find the right person, you know, it's like dating. They're going to want to make it work. And if everybody's above board and honest with each other, it usually does.

I think that's the perfect answer right there because, yeah, I was going into this knowing that you weren't going to give me a perfect answer or a number. I know some people ask for that, but that's not how the game works.

But I mean, from our experience, there's usually a little bit of a negotiation process of going back and forth and saying, hey, here's kind of what we had in mind. And, hey, how about we do this? And pretty much every time we've hired good copywriters. Not my first one back in like, oh, eight or whatever it was, there's always this negotiation and back and forth and a lot of phone calls and, and, and things like that to get to know each other. And you're totally right. I mean, every time we've done it, it's been structured completely different.

Yeah, right. As you said, because it's a relationship and it's a. Just like no two of your friends are the same. If you go have dinner with a friend, that it all feels different. Right. With every single person. If it's one on one. And that's just because it is. Again, it's a. It's a relationship first, which some people have trouble, struggle with. They're like, I don't want to. I don't need, you know, a new friend. It's like, well, you. You better. You better want one. Because if you want great copy, that's. Again, you don't even have to like each other that much. You just have to understand each other. And, you know, writers are empathetic people. They'll get you more than they might let on. But if you feel like something's off, it probably is.

Yeah, that's good to know.

Now, how much time are you looking at right now? I do have one or two little rabbit holes I'd love to go down with you, but I want to be respectful of you. Okay, cool. So I actually want to shift topics. It's kind of a 180 here. And I want to talk about your podcast for a second. You've got a couple different podcasts going right now. Copy Chief Radio, I believe. And the Truth About Marketing. Right?

That's right. Yeah.

I'm a Listener. I love the shows. You get great guests and I just, I love those shows. I. You're. You're one of the few that I tune into pretty much every episode.

Thank you.

So I was curious why you started the podcast and what sort of benefits you've seen from podcasting.

Yeah, good questions. Yeah, I think I started them because I just really love having these conversations.

I started doing them before there was podcasting was really a thing. I would just record interviews with people and I remember how I was posting them in my old blog, you know, but, you know, I think what it was was that I've been really fortunate in my life, in my, particularly in this career, that I've been able to get along with the people that I admire the most in this industry, you know, like John Carlton, for instance, and develop a real friendship. And, you know, being on the phone with, with John, and particularly back when I was coming up as a copywriter, he would just give me such incredible advice, like, life changing stuff. I have a part of an email that John sent me in 2009 hanging on my walls since then, you know.

And I, I just got to a point where I was like, it is such a shame that I'm the only one hearing this conversation, you know, like, so it really just came from that, that genuine of inspiration to like John, Would you. I think other people should hear this, you know.

Yeah.

So my first podcast was with John and.

Was actually a misunderstanding. Was hilarious. He was writing and he still does these great Facebook posts called Psych Insights.

I've seen that.

And yeah, psych insight number 482 and just some great piece of wisdom from him. And I said, John, you know, it'd be, you know, I knew that he loved audio. There's a guy named Ken Nordeen who was a, you know, kind of psychedelic radio guy back when John was like in college. And I said, john, you should, you should produce those psych insights as like Ken Nordeen style, like groovy little trippy audios, you know, with weird music and stuff. And he's like, so what are you saying? We should, we should have a podcast? Like, it's totally didn't understand what I was saying. And I go, I go, yeah, of course. That's what I'm saying. That's not a podcast, you know, awesome. It's so, you know, so we just started the podcast and that was the first one. And I really just fell in love with, with the format. I just love, I love this. It's, you know, it's just so cool. It's like, it's. It's a. It's a conversation optimized. That's all it really is. Right. Like, we're all performing right now because we're conscious that the tape is rolling, and we're appreciative of the listener's attention, and we don't want to ramble on or babble or lose it. But, you know, it's. It's not radio. It's. We get to be really pure and be ourselves and be thoughtful and be in the moment. Right? So I started it because I loved it. And then the shows are very different. Truth about marketing is.

Again, I'm certainly not like Marc Maron, where I wish I could. Maybe I'll have a show one day where I give myself permission to be that loose and really just let it be a couple people talking. But.

There'S a part of me. I don't know what it is that I really love great broadcasters, you know, And I. And I really, really want to respect somebody's time, man. Isn't it amazing? Like, right now, people who are listening to us, they stuck us in their ear for a long time, too. Here is that weird dude. Like, thank you so much, whoever you are. Whose ear you stuck me in right now, I really, honestly appreciate that.

Kevin loves your ears.

I love your ear hole.

It's true, though. You're totally right. It's dedication, and it's carving out time in someone's life. Yeah, Right.

And no other medium is that intimate. You're. You're the only one hearing it for the most part. Right. And you're usually out doing something solitary. Oh, you're at the gym, you're walking your dog, you're riding in your car. It's a very, very intimate exchange, and that's what I fell in love with. So truth about marketing is those conversations where I really just want to go deep. And as you guys know, and you've made me say it twice today, the biggest compliment I can get during interview is someone. There's a little pause, and they go, oh, that's a great question. Right? Because, you know, now they're in the moment, and they're. They're thinking to answer the other show. Copy chief. Radio is actually pretty different. That is me putting members of my community copy chief on. In the spotlight. So it's like 20 minutes. It's often their first ever podcast. And what I love about that show is the rush for them. I forget how nervous you are the first time you do this. Right. Feels like this big performance, and I'm always flattered at the end of it when they go, oh, my God, that was so fun. Just felt like we were talking, you know, but it's a very structured show where it's like 20 minutes, and I. And they give me five talking points, and I want to get through them all beginning to end, and not have it feel rushed, but pack a ton of information in there. So if you want to learn some very specific marketing tactics.

Copy Chief Radio, if you want to really understand what. What are. What are the deeper insights to how the best of the best do what they do, then that's truth about marketing.

Yeah, I love that. And you're speaking my language. I've always been sort of an audiophile myself. When I went to college, the first couple years I was in school, I was going to be an audio engineer. So I actually was, like, in a recording studio every day helping, like, mix bands and stuff. And then I was. I used to work at the local event center here, and I would do the mixing board in the back for bands that played. And I was always this, like, audiophile guy. So audio has always been my favorite sort of modality. And we started podcasting back in 2010. I mean, that's across probably 10 different brands for the podcast. But we started podcasting back in 2010, and I've just. It's. It's my stuff. First love. It's. I mean, you know, beyond my family, obviously, but, you know, it's like this. This is just the ultimate thing ever, and I love it.

Yeah.

So you're definitely speaking my language. There's one last thing I want to talk about real quick. You mentioned earlier your live event. When is. When is that happening?

Yeah, man. Oh, it's so exciting. October 23rd and 24th, and then there's a bonus day for freelancers only on the 25th. And I tell you, man, it's one of those things that I waited too long to do the first one, because once I did it, I was like, how was I not doing this all along? It was just so fun, you know, we're blessed to have a really strong community, and everybody loves each other in there, and they help each other in the public forums, privately, they reach out, and they help each other through all kinds of stuff, business and personal. So when we got, you know, 120, what we call chiefs together last October, it was just electric. And so I knew that would happen. Right. But the things that happened I couldn't have predicted could go as well were two things One was I had this fantasy. You guys ever have an idea that when you get scares you because it's too good not to try? Right?

I get. But yeah, I feel like a lot of those.

And then you're like, damn it, now I gotta go do this, right? You know, it's gonna be a lot of work. And so I had this fantasy. It's like, all right, if I'm gonna do this event, one of the greatest things I could experience is hearing John Carlton play with a band, right? Because I know that he. I sat around in hotel rooms and jammed with him and sung badly while he played. I knew he was good and I knew how much it meant to him to play and how much he loves music. And it was something kind of like comedy for me that he considered a part of his past, but it was a part of him that I really wanted to see happen. And so I had this idea. I'm like, man, I'll get a band. And what if I could get John to play with the band? And what if maybe Paris would do it, right? And maybe these other people who I know do both things because a lot of copywriters play guitar and do music, you know, So I had to pitch John on this, you know, And I'm like, I can't blow this pitch, you know? And I knew I had him when halfway through, he hadn't committed yet, and he still didn't commit even when we hung up the phone. But halfway through me describing the idea, he was starting to talk about the kind of band we'd need, right? You know, they have to be, you know, they got to know the basics. They can't be a bunch of show offs, you know, they got it. Yeah. And I was like, oh, he's in. I guess I could see he was, he was starting to fan. Because my real dream about it was selfishly, I wanted to just hear him play. But even more selfishly, I wanted to see him.

Feel, you know, would have this fantastical night of pack in a room with people who already knew and loved him. And we're gonna be thrilled as I was to see this side of him, because as a guy playing biker bars, nobody was there to see you, right? He's never been the reason anybody went to hear the band. It was just. He might have killed that night and had an electrifying set, but you know what I mean, this was going to be 100 people who already adored him for a lot of reasons, but didn't, had never heard him play music.

I think that's Amazing. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's what happened, you know? And I'll tell you a funny story, because you guys just met Paris. I also asked Paris to do it, and he kind of was like, yeah, yeah, I would do that. And next thing you know, I'm like, putting it on the website, right? And he sees it and he calls me up, like, genuinely pissed. He's pissed. He's like. He's like, dude. He's like, I can't believe you did this, man. He's like, now I gotta. Because, dude, it's been 20 years, and now I gotta. I gotta get back and play guitar again. And, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna look like an idiot. And I'm like. I go, bro, you know, you could back out and bet he wasn't. And I'm like, aha. He's fantasizing too, right? So he goes up Paris, does this song. My favorite moment of the whole night. He comes off stage, he grabs. His Crowd's going crazy. He grabs me. He kisses me on the cheek, and he goes, thanks for making me do that, man.

I love that. So cool.

Mission accomplished. So.

So that happens at the live event. That's now become. And here's the cool thing, dude, like, all the people who did it last year, every speaker who spoke last year, and that was my third fantasy lineup. Like, the best copywriters, right, they're all coming back this year just to attend, just to hang out, right? Because they loved it that much. And John's going to play again, and Paris is going to play again. And. And so last year was sort of about homage to the legends. This year is about what's happening now in copywriting and what are the kind of things, as copywriters we need to be focused on and learning and mastering so that we can ride this next wave of direct response copywriting, right? So I got Tom Brees coming to teach us how he writes these YouTube ad scripts that get past the skip option and actually get watched and convert sales. I got Keith Krantz showing us how he constructs Facebook ad funnels, you know, to make money on cold traffic. I got Laura Belgray. You want to talk about a funny copywriter if you don't know Laura Belgray? She co authored the Copy Cure course with Marie Forleo, and she is my favorite copywriter these days. She is the funniest writer I think I've ever read. And that's a copywriter. And so Talking Shrimp is her site. She's speaking Abby Woodcock talking about how to write, how to master an expert's voice. So if you're a copywriter, obviously, that's a huge. We both talked about our own stuff being the hardest to write. Right. So Dean Jackson's coming to teach us his conversational conversion.

He's a master.

Yeah. So it's just gonna be, you know, it's incredible. And you can see I get pretty excited just talking about it.

That's amazing. And you're rocking out with legends, too. It's not just learning cool stuff, right.

You're dancing to John playing guitar and dude, I tell you, he looks 20 years younger up there. Like, I've never seen him smile so much. He forced me to get up there with him. He's like, you're getting up there, you guys, you got to do your Jagger thing. I love to dance around like Mick Jagger. I love the Stones. And so I'm up there, we're doing Jumping Jack Flash and I'm dancing like an idiot and he's just laughing his ass off and it was a blast.

And this is happening out in Florida.

Yeah. St. Petersburg, Florida. Yep. Which is, you know, a really cool little town. It's like a little mini Austin, Texas, and it's 20 minutes from Tampa. And. Yeah, I hope, you know, you guys should think about coming out, man. You'd love it.

For sure. Yeah.

Are you going to do a stand up set too?

I don't know. You know, we did that last year. We did a stand up show as well. Myself and Ian Stanley and some other. You know, the problem is the venue we did it in last time is too small. We outgrew it. And the venue we're doing the music in this time isn't right for standup because there's no seating. So I think what I'm gonna do is infuse the standup into the two days of speakers. And so you'll come back from break and the lights will go dark and I'll just introduce a standup. It might be Ian Stanley, it might be a local guy, girl, you know, and so I'm just gonna keep the audience guessing, like, what the hell is gonna happen next? There'll be musicians, there'll be. I just want it to be fun and feel like nothing. Like a conference, you know?

Love it. And there's. There's still tickets available and you're good to go buy.

We're about half sold out. And again, you got to October, you know, I'll cram as many people as I can in that room, but we're about half full right now.

Where should they, where should people go to check that out? Just copychief.

Copychief Live.

Cool. There it is.

Yeah, we're do our best to try to get out there. I know I have. I'm actually in a wedding right around that time, so I'll have to like confirm the dates, but I'd love to make it out there. We were out, we were out there a few months ago for an event Todd Brown put on and. Oh yeah, it's always a good time.

Yeah, man. Well, that's great. We've. We've kept you for. Well over the time that we, we asked you for, so I appreciate that, man.

I love it. You guys are great, man.

Yeah, you already mentioned a ton of books. We won't even do that question unless there's anything else you'd like to recommend. That's kind of like a wrap up question.

Well, you probably get this one on the.

On this book in a way it only happens like once a year. Right? Where one this like gets up in you.

Yeah.

But never split the difference by Chris Voss.

I haven't heard of that one.

Oh really? Oh my God. It's. It's. He's a former FBI hostage negotiator.

I love it already.

And so it's called. The subtitle is negotiating as if your life depends on it. And so every chapter, it starts out with him detailing a hostage situation he was in, in this negotiation to get this person's life back. And he then translates that how you use that in business. And there's a lot of books on negotiating. They're all good, the gym, camp stuff. But this is the one to me that's just like really, you know, you start applying it immediately. Right. And I, I felt myself change in how I'm dealing with people like instantly. So highly recommend that one.

Picking that up then. Yeah, because that's the whole thing. It's like, yeah, you can, you can use it for sales, but it's like you're gonna use that in everyday life too. That's like anything, persuasion, even copy. Just if you can persuade and just optimize your speech. I heard you say that a couple times. Optimize your language, optimize all this stuff. Like that's how you do it right there.

And copy.

If, If I can use those techniques to go to a timeshare and get them to pay me.

Me, Hell yeah, I'm sold.

How much would you pay me to come here four times a year?

I'll look Happy? You could take pictures.

I'll tell everybody.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right.

And list out where you want people to go again, because I know we listed out a whole handful.

I'll try to. I'll list them first, and then if. If I miss any, you can. You can let me know. So go to copychief Live to make sure you register for your event in Florida. Copychief.com that's where your main training community is. And then you've got Copy Chief Radio on itunes, and you've got the Truth About Marketing podcast.

Bam, boom. Perfect.

Anywhere else you want to send people, or do you think those four resources are enough?

That's enough. I'm doing my job. CopyChief.com will get you everywhere you need to be. But Definitely go to CopyChief live and check out this event, because I promise you, it'll be the best one you attend all year.

So cool. All right, Kevin, I appreciate your time, man. This has been fun.

Yeah, I've loved it. Thanks, guys. Let's do it again.

Thank you. Yeah, we will.

All right.

See it. All right. Thank you. And I hope you just enjoyed this episode you just listened to. Now, right now, before we sign off, I have a few things I would love for you to do. So, the very first thing is to go find our guest on Facebook and tell them that you loved their episode with us. That's going to help them just feel good about themselves, but also it's going to spread the word a little bit more for us. Go find them on Facebook. Everybody's on Facebook. And go say that you love their episode and maybe one cool thing that you learn there. The second thing is to go to itunes and subscribe to our podcast. Just look up Hustle and Flowchart and hit the subscribe button. And the very last thing, the third thing, is to leave us a review on itunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast and help us spread the word more. That's how more people are gonna get this awesome knowledge, this. This cool podcast training, and a whole bunch of other cool, free training that we give out@evergreenprofits.com so that's about it. Go find them on Facebook, go subscribe on itunes, and leave us a review. You would be amazing if you did that, but you're always amazing. So thanks for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.

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