Luis Diaz - How To Growth Hack Your Content Marketing

So someone listening out there. It's true. Like, if you have the money and the budget and you want to grow, it's like you could literally reach out to people in your space to go to. Go to chartable.com and look at the top, you know, shows in your category and pitch them. Say, would you do like, I'll pay you 100 bucks, 200 bucks to mention to do like a little 15 second host read. I'll provide the script for you and let's run it for four episodes. Or, you know, hey, name your price. So that's like a very organic way to do paid ads or paid sponsorships. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. Wiki wiki Wiki. All righty.

Hi there.

Hey.

All right. Today we nerded out.

We did. This is a podcasterific episode.

Yeah, I cannot do that. What are these things called again?

We've been only saying the word about 50 times. Kazoo. It's a kazoo. And Matt doesn't know how to play a kazoo.

Sounds. Beautiful, man. Sounds.

Wait, wait. We're gonna try to do our jingle with it.

What's that jingle referring to?

38470, comp. 38470, comp.

All right, we'll circle back to that. Let's intro our guest, actually, because that's why people are here, I think. But maybe they're here for a good kazooing. Who knows?

Yes. So let me preface this with if you don't have a podcast, don't ignore this episode. This episode is important for everybody if you've got a media presence online. Cause we're talking about getting on podcasts. We're also talking about podcast growth. But the strategies that we talk about around podcast growth are relevant to growth of anything.

Blog, YouTube, channel content, anything. That's all it is, is content.

Yeah. So don't ignore it. Because we're using the word podcasting a lot. Because this is relevant to any. Any sort of brand and any sort of content marketing. So let me preface with that. But today we are talking to Luis Diaz, who is the. What was that face for? It's the look you're giving me when.

You'Re saying his name. Keep going, Keep going.

Luis Diaz. And he's got a book called how to get yout first 100,000 podcast downloads in 100 days. And I've actually read that book. Apparently I'm one of the few but.

You are one of the few. I have not read it, but I've flipped through it and there are very specific strategies in there and tools that you can basically just swipe and try out yourself. And again, this is angled to podcasting. But don't shy away from like using this for other content too, especially the strategies he says in this podcast as well. And you can go to our Show Notes to get. I don't actually have a link for it because I think he was just going to send it to us afterwards. So if you go to our show notes@evergreenprofits.com, find this episode, you can get his book for free. The digital version.

Yeah. And then his website's podcastdomination Co. So I think you can get it from there as well. So Luis, he's actually helped with 37. Over 37 podcast launches in two years and has accumulated 3.7 million downloads.

That's pretty legit. Yeah. He has an agency that basically does this. He has a podcast on the back end of that, this book. And he's another guy from Austin, or not from Austin, but living in Austin. It seems like it's either San Diego or Austin. Lot of the folks that we're chatting with these days seems like it. But yeah, Luis is just freaking awesome. You could tell he does a lot of similar stuff that we're doing, but also a lot of different things. A lot of lateral thinking. I think that's what my big takeaway here is that it's not like the standard stuff you would hear about growing a podcast or really content in general. I'm going to do this interchangeably a little bit for this intro at least is he's talking about how to, you know, get on other podcasts or if you don't want to do that, get published by other blogs or something like that, or publications. But there's specific strategies he gives in the book, but also definitely on this episode where you can, you'll probably get some aha's. We even got some aha's with like the follow up. He has a total system behind the scenes, depending on, you know, like what. And I think he said he would share that with us or some other. I don't know. He's going to share a lot of stuff.

There's going to be a lot of valuable stuff in the show.

Notes and the note notes and the notes notes. So yeah, get them both. Check them out. Both. But I love just the perspective of how you can. How you can in a cool way, in a nice way, not in a spammy, scammy kind of way to get on other people's platforms and to really help each other out. Establish relationships, grow your business, make more money, but also you're, like, helping people in the same path.

Yeah. I think what I like about Luis and what we talked about with Luis is Luis is a growth hacker like us. He loves to just figure out, like, sort of little hacks that nobody else is doing to just move the needle on the podcast a little bit more, get a little bit more downloads, a little bit more subscribers, and he's just kind of hacking away at these podcasts. And some of this stuff have been really, really high leverage. I'm sure some of it didn't really pan out well, but he's just constantly experimenting and testing stuff and just hacking his way to the top. And that's essentially been our philosophy with this podcast as well. What can we do to grow it? What little tweak can we make to hack our way up the charts just a little bit more? And so that's kind of the stuff that we talked about is some of those growth hacks, but also what to do when you go on other people's podcast. And this is just a podcast. Goodness. But do keep in mind that this is relevant to all content marketing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's cool. And, yeah, you'll see both sides of the coin is going on podcasts, like, where you don't even have to have your own, and then you can if you have your own. This is a freaking amazing resource as well. So good for everybody.

And we got notes coming like this earlier.

Cool. So that's. That. That signals it's time to talk about the notes. So get the notes.

So you're just gonna tell them this is. This is the spot where can fast forward now?

No. Maybe for some people, but why don't do that. Because don't do that. I mean, you're only skipping on your own knowledge and your own time savings in ways to get more of these details that you don't have to do them yourself.

So plus, you never know what Joe's gonna say.

And it's free.

Yeah.

And how bad Matt's kazooing can be. You can hear more of that. There you go. It's beautiful. It's like a tuba kazoo. That was great. Tube kazoo.

Kazooba. I like kazooba.

Yeah. You gonna go make one now? No, Add it to your musician wall.

I'm gonna change my name.

Wow.

Legally flowchart with Joe and Kazuba.

We're gonna go down to the courthouse and I'm gonna, like, actually film you changing your name as to Kazuba Fear.

Fear.

Am I taking your last name now?

No, we're not getting married at the courthouse. You're changing your Kazuba name.

Matthew can be your middle name now.

There we go.

Kazuba Matthew Wolf.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what my dad thinks about that since my middle name is currently my dad's name.

Ooh. Well, you can deal with him, Kazuba Kazooba from now on.

That's a problem for a different day.

All right. Anyway, get those notes. I think that's what we're talking about right here. Right, Kazuba?

Right. If you go to pull out your phone, assuming you're in a safe place, to pull out your phone and type the number 38470 and text the word computer to it. C o m p.

Comp.

That's why we keep making that annoying kazooba jingle. So 38470 on your text ding device. And then if you text the word comp, you will get those notes.

Yes. Or you can go to hustleandflowchart.com comp and you can get them notes there as well.

And we like to remind about the timing of these notes.

That's true. We don't want you to be blindsided. From the time this episode goes live. You got about two weeks to go grab those notes. After two weeks, they get locked into our vault and then they're only available for our Evergreen Profits members.

Two weeks on the dot.

On the dots. Exactly. On the dot. They actually get wiped off the webpage. We scrubbed the webpage.

We scrubbed it. It's been locked away in our very secure vault that is not that expensive to access. So you have that option as well, if you so desire.

Yes. So that is all flowchart.com comp or text comp to 38470. Go get those.

And let's go talk to Luis about some podcasting stuff.

Hey, before we go over to the episode, I just want to give a shout out to our podcast sponsor, LinkedIn. And it's really cool because they showed up right at the same time where we've been obsessing over LinkedIn and testing it out as kind of a new and I put that in quotes platform to focus on and put our content on. It's actually working out really well. So we've noticed that people over there take action. These are actually professionals looking for professional type stuff. To further their business and things like that. So you can actually reach the right professionals at the right time. And there's a bunch of them. There's something like 62 million over there right now. So organic content and all that stuff's great. But also LinkedIn ads are frickin amazing, actually. They're working really well. There's targeting and all sorts of different things you can try over there. And what's really nice is we've secured some free credit for you to try, so you can try it out yourself. LinkedIn's actually offering a free $100 LinkedIn ad credit to launch your first campaign. So simply visit LinkedIn.com flowchart that's LinkedIn.com flowchart and terms and conditions apply. But go be quick. Go check it out. Got Nothing to lose. $100 free credit. Go test out some ads. See what you can do. All right, let's head over to the episode. Luis, welcome to the show, man.

Guys, what's going on? Thanks for having me on here.

Yeah, man. Yeah. No, it's great talking. You speak our language well. A, podcasting, but B, growth of podcasts in cool, tricky, fun ways.

Yeah, yeah. We always, like, at the beginning of our show, we always like to try to, like, remember where, you know, how we got connected or, you know, what the. What the sort of path to this conversation was. And I think, actually I saw you maybe on either Twitter or Facebook, I don't remember which one, but it was on one of the social media platforms. You were out there talking about podcasting. And then I found your how to get 100,000 down podcast downloads book, and I downloaded my first 100,000 how to get your first 100,000 downloads. I found that book, and I think I opted in for that. And then after I opted in for that, I was like, this guy's got some good stuff. Like, there's some pretty good strategies in here that we haven't even thought about yet. So this is really awesome. I got to connect with. With this dude. And I think before I even emailed you, you emailed me.

To intro us to somebody. I think you emailed me and said, hey, I got somebody that I think it'd be really cool if you met. And I got that email, and I'm like, yeah, I'd love to meet that person, but I actually really want to get you on the podcast.

I remember that email. Yeah, there's a funny story behind that email. We can touch on later. But I have probably, like, you guys, I've got A slack bot that tells me who opts into my for that book. And I was like, oh, man. Matt opted in because I was familiar with you before that. And I was like, oh, cool, hope he likes it. And then the email. So yeah, I'm always trying to spy on who's opting in. If I know them already, I try to reach out.

So I like that slack bot idea because we do that for other things but not for opt ins. Really?

Yeah, we actually don't really pay attention to who's joining our list. Really?

Yeah, but that's a good idea.

I like that.

Or even paid subscribers, like a newsletter like Slackbot. There you go.

Yeah. Yeah, we do pay very close attention to who our customers are, but we haven't really paid a lot of attention to just the email opt ins.

I love it.

Yeah, man. Well, let's chat about. Let's figure out kind of little behind the scenes of what got you to this point to release in the book you have your podcast agency. What kind of led you on this whole path?

So I have no background in media. I didn't go to college for it. I didn't plan on this throughout. When I came out of college, I was really, really into health and fitness and I was a personal trainer before I was a podcast producer or podcaster at all. And what kind of led me on this path was you. Flashback to 2014. I was a junior in college going to UCF down in Orlando and I realized that I hated my major and I hated what I was going to be going into, which was hospitality and restaurant management. I was like, if I have to do this rest of my life, I don't know, I might not suicidal, but you know, I definitely won't be happy.

It's so fitting though, in Orlando, you know, it's like, oh, dude.

Yeah, that's. Yeah, we were. It was like one of the top hospitality schools and I worked my butt off to get in there and then I realized like, this is not what I want to do.

Yeah, I don't blame you. So.

Yeah, exactly. I was a night auditor. So I was literally up at night. I remember I was doing it. I was like, night auditor for Marriott, one of the hotels over there. And I was like flipping through. I do my work and then I would just flip through and like look at YouTube videos all night and bored out of my mind. So I was a trainer at that time. I realized I had to get out of this. So I was like, I love the gym, I need to start training. And I realized really quick that there's a ceiling on how fast you can scale as a personal trainer. You can only train so many hours in the day, right. And I was like, well, okay, well, I know there's guys online doing this. Let me see. Let me try and take my business online. So I probably played around with that for two years.

Dabbled, and here and there.

Was that like a. Like a personal coaching online, or was it more like a broad strokes, like, hey, here's a bunch of training that you can do yourself?

It was. I was trying to figure that out. So I was young and I didn't really know still. I'm young, but it's still. I didn't really know if I wanted to do like personal training one on one or info products. Didn't really know. And so I tried it all, to be honest with you. And I had a really good mentor at the time I was fortunate enough to. To. To run into. And this guy, like, changed my life. He actually said, like, why don't you start a podcast? And I had never thought of that opportunity or possibility up until then, had I? I'd listened to podcasts probably about a year, a year in, after. Since before he. He said that. And, and that was my first kind of like, aha moment. I was like, wow. Like, you know, because I. Being online for up until that point, about a year or two years, I had tried to do blogging. Not good at writing. I tried to do video. Video editing is too. Was way too much, too expensive or too hard. But I was pretty good at talking. And I realized this just by going to, like, parties or going to, you know, different types of meetups and things. I could talk to people. So podcasting was kind of like a natural fit for me. So I started a health and fitness podcast after about a month and like an $11 course on Udemy.

We've been there.

Yeah, those courses are amazing. I'll tell you. Great price.

It's a freaking bargain, actually.

Definitely undervalued. A lot of that content's way undervalued.

I don't know why no one's talking about Udemy anymore.

I know I ran into a guy who grew his podcast using Udemy. We can get into that later.

Oh, yes, let's talk about that.

Yeah, it's a really cool story. So bought the Udemy course, launched the podcast, started, started growing relatively fast. This was 2016 at the time, so podcasting wasn't as competitive and, and realized that, like, this is actually fun. I can do it. Only thing was Killing me was kind of like the, the show notes and everything, doing all the back end stuff.

Right, right.

Everyone hates doing, but I love the actual interviewing process of it.

Right.

So. So that's kind of how I got started into this. And then I started to do. I did that for about two years. Then around 2017, I ran into a really big influencer who's in the fitness space and I offered to help him with his podcast for free. And I worked my butt off for about 10 months and helped him grow his show from about 33,000 downloads to a month to about 110. And that's how I realized like, oh, like this can actually be a business.

And from then just growing the agency. So that's kind of how I. How I got into it. The short story at least I'll get into that.

With the business that you have now, the current agency, is the agency the done for you podcasting stuff or is it an agency that will take an existing podcast and help scale it up?

So that's what I'm running into more and more.

There's a lot of podcasts out there. The issue is, and this is what we're going to focus this call on is like, is how do you grow a podcast once you got it up off the ground? So it is. Originally I started just helping people get their show off the ground and then just helping them produce episodes, you know, after that. Nowadays it's more diving into with clients on one on one calls where we're looking at like, how to grow, where are the issues, where's the issue, the audience dropping off at what point, at what part of the show.

So the agency and answer question is nowadays mainly focused on helping people grow, but it started out helping people just get started. Gotcha.

It's such a needed thing too. There are a lot of agencies out there that will do the editing and write your show notes and that kind of stuff. It is next to impossible to find companies out there that specialize in growing your podcast for you.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not easy and I think that's probably why. Because it's not easy and it's never like a. It's always different depending on who the person is. So it's always kind of a custom thing. But there are. It's funny though, because if you look at trying to grow a blog or YouTube channel, a lot of the same hacks and strategies will apply to podcasting if you kind of mirror them and tailor them to the podcasting medium. So whenever I looked at growing A show I look at. Well, I don't try to reinvent the wheel. I look at, well, what have people done to grow blogs? What have they done to grow Instagram channels? What have they done to grow Facebook pages? And a lot of those things will. Will transfer over in some way or another.

Yeah.

So that's how I've always kind of. I've looked at it. Like, I don't try to reach the wheel. I'm like, people have done this before and other mediums. So how did they grow radio. Radio stations back in the day?

Yeah. I love that you're bringing it up in that format or like, you're, like, framing it as such. Because a lot of folks that we've helped kickstart their podcasts or grow their podcast and, you know, just through advising and stuff, I feel like the. Just the label of a podcast, that it's different from a content like a YouTube video or, like you said, a blog post or whatever. It's just content at the end of the day. So it's like we can really apply what's. Yeah. What grows. Like during the blog movement, when that was all the rage and starting up, like, what were the things that. How was the trends? For one, you could look at the market trends with that medium, but also you could look at all the different strategies that were used then and use now and just apply it as this.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's funny because when I use that frame, one of the first things that came up in my head was like, oh, well, when I started in blogging and I wanted to get my blog, I hit up a bunch of people who had blogs and asked if I could produce some content for them. And I was like, well, why doesn't that. Why can't that work in podcasting? And that's kind of how I got really into looking at, like, well, how can I get on more podcasts? Or how can I provide value for someone so that they'll eventually come to me and say, hey, would you want to do a show with me?

Yep.

And that's kind of like the first thing I started with when it comes to helping people grow like a podcast, it's like, well, we need to get you out there on other shows.

Yeah. And that's perfect for everyone. Like, any business, anyone listening can do that. And I think that's an important point. Is you ever talking about podcast growth and getting a podcast started, but you don't really need one to. You could still dip your toes into the whole medium by just guesting yeah.

Oh, totally. Yeah. There's so many people I've seen do that. Like, you know, like book authors, when they have a new book, they go and do this. The question is, how do they scale it and do it, like, do 40 in a month? I think that's the biggest question people want. It's like, how do I do a lot of these in a month or a couple months and really, really amplify instead of dripping it?

Yeah.

And if you are going to do 40, you want them to sort of move the needle a little bit too, Right? Because, I mean, there's. There's so many new podcasts starting up every single day that maybe don't even have any traction yet. So, you know, I mean, I don't know your philosophies yet. We'll dig into it. But, you know, does it make sense to go on some of these newer podcasts when you're going on this, like, media blitz to get something out into the world because, you know, maybe someday that podcast will be bigger and that content lives for kind of forever? Or does it make sense to sort of put all of your effort into the only the ones that are going to move the needle, like, right now? And so that's sort of a thing that I think when we talk about the conversation of going on other podcasts, I think that's sort of the active debate that's always kind of going on is, should I just accept everything, or should we only go on the ones that are going to really move the needle? So I'm kind of curious. What are your thoughts around that?

I think that's a great question. And that's something literally, I've worked with people who have that rule or have people who are like, I'll get on anything, just tell me where to go. And I think it really depends on how much, like, how big you are. Like, what exactly do you have else to do? Like, is this your number one thing that you're doing right now in terms of marketing strategy, or are you. Do you have other things that would be higher, a more better use of your time? I think you had a friend of mine on here, Chris Guerrero, and a few episodes a little while back, and Chris is a guy that, he said he's, like, super successful, he's got a great business. For him to go on a small podcast, it doesn't make sense. He could do. He could spend his time doing something else that's going to be more profitable. So I think it comes down to the equation of, like, where are you which is going to be the best investment time for a guy like that. We can take Chris for an example. You know, it's, it makes sense for him to be on probably like the top 100 podcasts, maybe not the podcasts that are smaller, that don't have a bigger following because he could spend a bunch of money on ads in that same hour and get his name out there way further. So a lot of it depends on what's the best use of that person's time.

What's your philosophy for yourself for going on podcasts?

For me, I am at a stage right now where I accept pretty much 95% of what comes through because my goal is not just the interview is where it starts. The follow up is where you'll make, you'll make your. The lion's share of relationship revenue. The, the, I mean the, like, the value of it is in the follow up.

I think that right there is, I think the biggest point is the relationship.

Well, and also in, in Luis's specific scenario, his ideal client are those smaller podcasts that are kind of getting started up. So you're building a relationship with somebody that could potentially be a client of yours because you now know they have a podcast.

Right? That's one strategy. It's funny. So I worked with a guy who had helped. He had me build out like a, basically a flowchart of the follow up system.

That would go down after a certain pot after he was on a podcast. So depending on what bucket that podcaster fell into, the follow up sequence and how he kind of organized or orchestrated that relationship was different. So for example, if the person has a business you want to do a partnership with, there was a different set of follow up events for that person. If the person was a really big influencer and maybe they just had a huge, a huge following on, on Instagram or they had a huge email list that's different follow up for that person. Or if the person's just a celebrity and you know, you want them to give you a book, a book recommendation, or like you want you to do kind of, you know, a testimonial for your upcoming book, that person had a different follow up. So you can get really, really down the, you get down like the rabbit hole with this and kind of build out a flowchart of like, if I go on this kind of podcast, here's the, or here's the kind of relationship that I want to have and, or if it's this one, it's a different setup, set of follow up so.

Yeah, I think it's almost like a sales, like sales follow up.

It is, yeah. And you brought up a great point. And there's. There's two things. So there's. Well, first thing I wanted to say is Roland Frazier. He's one of the, you know, the owners of Digital Marketer, and he's been on the show a couple times. He made a comment, this was a little over a year ago, so I don't know if it's still totally true, but he, his philosophy and, you know, his time is very valuable. He said he will go on any podcast because he sees that the potential of any show could become one of 100,000 downloads per month, you know?

Right.

But I think what he also probably didn't say is the relationships. He's a very relationship guy and that's how his currency is. Like, he, he helps others grow. So I could. And that's one of the biggest things we find is I think there's maybe 5% of our guests actually follow up with us. You know, like they have a plan to. And usually it's just a thanks. I've never heard of a flow like what you have there. I think it's freaking brilliant. We obviously do our follow ups and a lot of podcasters don't even do that. So it's like, dude, I don't know how to use follow ups.

I don't know how many podcasts I've been on where the podcast went live. And I discovered that it went live like two months after it was live. And I was like, oh, shit, I didn't even know that thing was on air yet. To me, I think that's one area where so many podcasters fall short. But I feel like that's sort of getting on a sort of off topic tangent.

But yeah, no, it's perfect here though, Luis. You're bringing up that every single person listening, it doesn't matter what niche you're in and what your goal is. If you just identify some really key shows, just use it as a conversation builder, relationship builder, and then actually follow up and have a plan.

Yeah.

And analyze the opportunity cost. Of course, if there's higher leverage activities you can be doing with that time, then look at the opportunity cost.

Always true. And it's funny enough because sometimes I'll speak with people and they're like, I just don't know where to start. How do I find the podcast? Talk to them, reach out to them. It's this. This is crazy because I didn't even think of this, but I was in a mastermind here in Austin. It was a think tank with David Gonzalez. And a couple weeks ago, and this guy, I forget his name, he was there and he was like, he showed how he got on the top 10 podcasts in his space. I think he's in the business space. And what he did. He's looked at the top 10 podcasts at the time a couple of years ago when he was launching his book, and he scrolled down all of the episodes and he looked for mutual contacts. He's like, oh, I know that guy. I know that person. He reached out to all those people, asked for a mutual. Asked for a connection or introduction to the podcaster, and got on all 10 of those podcasts. Like that.

I believe it.

I was like. I was like, wow. Like, it's simple. It's as simple as that. Like, you could literally go through the person's like, if I wanted to meet you, Joe, or you, Matt, and like, I didn't know you guys, I could either go through your podcast and ask for mutual connection, or I could go on Facebook and say, okay, he's got, like, he knows David. I know David. I can ask for a mutual connection for sure.

That's so smart. So I'm curious though.

How does that interaction go from there? Because I know.

Depending on the level you're at, I almost feel like you might kind of get filtered out by gatekeepers if you're not quite established enough. How do you sort of get past gatekeepers? And how do you actually get somebody enticed to bring you onto their show?

It's a great question. I think for me, it always comes down to I've got to know what this guy or gal wants. I have to know, are they launching a book? Are they launching a new company? Is there podcast? What are they looking for in their podcast? So it comes down for me knowing what that person wants.

So, for example, we had a client. This was way, way back when I was first getting started. I had a client who was in the health and fitness space, and he. He wanted to get on some bigger health and fitness podcasts. Now his podcast was kind of was okay, but his YouTube channel was huge. It was at over 300,000 subscribers. And I knew of a podcast that was in the top five in the health and fitness space, and they were just starting their YouTube channel. So I reached out to the. To the. The podcasters and said, hey, like, we'd love to do across interview with this person. Because I knew, like, my. My client had the big YouTube following. They didn't, but they have a big podcast following, so it's kind of an equal fit. We kind of both had what the other person wanted. So. So for that, like how I figured that out was I listen. I was listening to their podcast and I just realized that what they wanted was something I could provide. So you kind of got a. It's. It may not always happen, like right off the bat. You kind of have to listen for it and you have to keep your eyes open and like kind of stalk the person.

I mean, it's the same kind of stuff that we do for getting high level guests like we. And people that aren't really in our network. Like one example is Mike Dillard we had on the show and we didn't really have a great connection. We got intro'd, but at the same time we had a reason why we wanted him on the show and he was like out of the limelight for a year plus wasn't doing any kind of interviews. But we said why specifically we wanted him on and how it related to what we're doing, our lives and all that. And he hopped on. He was like, yeah, sure, let's do it.

Right.

It's just.

Well, we found the topic that he was really, really hot and passionate on in that moment outside of. I mean, it impacted his business, but it was a topic that wasn't necessarily a business topic. And we knew he was passionate about it right now. And that was our way in. And we got connected and now we're at. We actually stay in touch with him.

So that's really cool. So you had specificity. It's just like marketing. It's like specificity will help. Will really help get that. Convert that person from like a. No, like I don't want you to. I don't want to talk with you for an hour to like, oh yeah, we can definitely talk about that because you took the. Went the extra mile and went get specific with it. So that makes total sense.

Yeah. And that was a combo of actually what you said, so get intros. So we got an intro which gets you past. Usually past the gatekeepers. There might still be an assistant involved. That's how we got Dave Asprey on as well. It's like, you know, got an intro. But then even talking to an assistant, there was some specificity and we had very, you know, it was, it was like a combo. I think I feel like a good combo approach will make it happen most cases.

Throughout the course of this conversation. I think you mentioned before we hit record that there's a lot of people that do this stuff in San Diego. And I think almost everybody that we've mentioned so far is out in Austin. So I'm like, Dave Asprey. Dave Asprey's not in Austin. I thought he was.

He has. Oh, you are? Yeah, yeah.

No, yeah, you're in Austin. But I think we mentioned Mike Dillard, and then the person that we got connected to, Mike Dillard, was a guy named Kurt Molly, who you probably know. So it's just Austin crew. There's a big crew out there in Austin, too.

I'm telling you. Austin and San Diego, it's the reason why I moved here, honestly. It's because it's middle of this country. It's plenty of people here.

So taxes, tax stuff is pretty good.

Better than California.

Yeah, I know.

Oh, yeah.

Hey, trust us, if we didn't have all of our family, if we didn't grow up in. In San Diego, we'd be definitely be looking at some options. Yeah, Austin's on top of the list.

Yeah. You guys are welcome to come. I hear that every time I go there, I hear new. New tax laws being raised. I'm just like, how is there? No, it's beautiful. But how you guys live here.

I know. I hear you, man. All right, so, I mean, some more Strat. Are there any other strategies you'd recommend? So podcast guesting, I think that's the big thing is, you know, how do you get on shows? That's the question that we get all the time. So I think we pretty much answered that here. It's not rocket science. Just make some connections, do your homework, and then show up with value that serves their audience.

Yeah, we've all seen this. All three of us here. We've all been on the wrong side of really shitty outreach emails, right? So we get these emails that are like, hey, Matt from Hustle in Flowchart, I was listening to your podcast episode, and then they paste a link in there. I think this person would be a great fit for your show. Signature, right? We've all gotten those really, really crappy pitches. When somebody's trying to get onto a podcast, do you have any feedback that you give them on here's how you should structure? I mean, it sounds like a lot of what you're doing is networking and sort of getting somebody else to make the intro, but then once you've actually gotten that intro.

What'S some of the advice you give people to follow up and actually make it happen?

So I think what you just Said there, the follow up is key because if the follow up, like, and I don't mean follow up once or twice, I mean follow up like seven, eight or nine times. For me, that's been a huge key. Even when I pitch cold, like, if I'm pitching a client to somebody else I don't even know.

We always go, we have like a seven, a seven step, kind of all seven emails that go out scheduled. So that's number one. Like, don't be afraid if they don't reply three times, that's fine. They're podcasters, they're always gonna need content. So I don't really mind to know because I know they're gonna be. If they're still producing in a month or two from now, I can still. They still need content for next week.

Yeah.

So it doesn't really bother me. So that's the first thing is like, you have to be ready to follow up multiple, multiple, multiple times. Besides that, when it comes to pitching and kind of getting the interview, I think it takes, like you were saying before, it takes research. Like, you have to know, I know you're, you have to prove a couple things. Number one, I know your audience. Number two, I know what you want. And then number three, I can help you grow your podcast because, like we just discussed, podcasters want to grow their show. It's like the number one thing. So if you're a guest coming on and you've got to get a email list of 10,000 people, I would put in that email list, in that email, hey, I can, I'm going to promote your podcast to my 10,000 email subscribers. Or, you know, you can, you can kind of be creative and say, hey, like, every podcast I get on, I run, we run, you know, $50 with an ad spend on Facebook and to promote the show and to help the guests, help the host as a thank you for having me on. So I think it really comes down to how can you help that person grow their podcast. You can leverage your Facebook, your Instagram account, you can leverage paid ads, you can leverage your YouTube channel. You can do all these kind of things. And the same thing goes for the host, right? You can get creative with how you can show value. So I think if that, that's something that nobody else is really doing, right? There is, is if you're a guest coming on, it's like, well, how can you. They're not showing how they can help podcasts or grow their podcast, right. Outside of just giving, giving great content, which I know a lot of people can do. But if you can show them numbers and like, hey, I'm going to promote you to my 36,000 followers on Instagram and send traffic to your podcast, you know. Yeah, I think that's a. A stronger lead in for most people.

Yeah. So basically show them that you've done your research, you know their audience, you know what kind of things they want to talk about, you know what they're looking for, but also you're willing to do the thing that they probably are looking for the most, which is help them get more awareness on what they're doing and their show and that sort of thing.

It's funny because all the people that we get pitched to us, maybe again, 5% or so, actually put that in there. Most, it might even be less than that. But that's. The common feedback is like, hey, get very specific with what it is. That's. And even come with a handful of topics that relate to our audience and be very specific around those as well so we don't have to search and wonder, how are you going to fit into the show?

Yeah, don't make the podcast that you're trying to do on. Do the work for you.

Right.

Like, don't pitch us and say, hey, I'd love to be on your show, and then make us do research to figure out who the hell you are.

Pretty much.

Right, right. It needs to be a very clear. A clear reason why they would have you on your show. Like, I only talk about podcasting, right?

Yeah.

Not going to talk about anything else but podcasting. So, yeah, that's. I try to stay in my lane, and that's. In that regard.

Yeah.

And the same thing with. With most people, it's that, yeah, I can tell you some horror stories of getting pitched on. What are we going to talk about? I don't even know you.

Yeah, yeah, just. We'll just say, don't be that guy. Just. Just be a good human. Do your research and just know that. Yeah, don't be a pest. Yeah.

So one. One thing that I know comes up for us is because we're doing the podcast and because we're trying to get on a lot of podcasts, there's a lot of connections and a lot of people and a lot of, you know, a lot of things that we've got to remember to follow up on and things like that. Are you using any sort of tools or automations or contact management or any sort of systems like that to kind of keep it all straight?

Great question, great question. So there's Two things I'll note here. One, I have a Google Sheets document that it's called a connection document. And when I have someone who's new in my world and I want to add value to them, I have a list of all the podcasters or all the people I know with a show or platform, and I have them on that list and those will be in the columns on the top going from left to right. And then I'll put the person's name on the left side and then I'll run across my finger, who can I connect with them with? It's like Matt, Joe, James, Rick. Yes, no, yes, no. And I'll, I'll use it, come out of there with like four or five names. Like, oh, this person would be great for that podcast. Let me go make some introductions. And then I'll. I have a, like a copy paste introduction template that I give to my assistant. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Like it needs to be, it needs to be kind of massaged a little bit for every person. But, but that's how, that's one tool I use for, for keeping up with all the connections I have because there's tons of podcasters in my network and same thing with you guys, right? There's a bunch of people who you could potentially connect with. So that's one thing I do. And that's usually for any kind of business relationship or new clients or anything like that.

We'll use that connection document. The second one I'm using now is called Airtable. And Airtable specifically hooked up with Zapier for me. I don't know if you guys have used Airtable before, but it's like Google Sheet. Okay. It's like Google Sheets on steroids.

It's pretty cool.

So what are you doing with Zapier there?

Yeah, I mean, we're actually using Airtable in the same way. We use it for a lot of our contact management. And also our release calendar for our podcast is all built into airtable because you can just pump so much data into it and still have it look organized, right?

Yeah. So right now we're automating a lot of our email follow up with that. So whenever we need to pitch people, we have the sequence automated on there and it's really just plug in a couple different detail, a couple different dates and then you can schedule out like I could schedule out six months of follow up if I wanted to get on 40 podcasts.

Really? I didn't know you can do that. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, it's Pretty cool. The key though, I found is like, well, the good thing about it is that you can scale your pitching, right? So if you had 40 emails and 40 names and you knew kind of the details, or you could have someone, you could pay someone to do the research. Right. You could be essentially be pitched on 40 podcasts today, which is cool. So that's what we're using it for right now. The biggest thing is like you, like again, you have to know the person, you have to know what they want. And then that, and then follow up comes in huge in that part.

People are just so it's like you still got to do the front work that we were talking about, which is still, you know, approach it with it level headed and connections and all that stuff. But then, yeah, it's the follow up that I mean, everyone typically has an issue with unless there's a good system behind the scenes.

Exactly. And that's the issue. People pitch me all the time. I never really respond until two or three times in.

Sure. Same as a podcaster. Yeah, you get swamped by these things every day.

Oh, I actually, I really appreciate it when people bump the thread back up to the top the of. Of my Gmail. Like if somebody reaches out a lot of times it'll kind of fall into the ether. The ether of my inbox. I'm actually pretty clean with my inbox, but sometimes stuff falls through the cracks or I'll leave it in my inbox thinking, okay, I'm gonna respond to this person next week and kind of falls out of my radar. And then they bump it and I go, oh yeah, I was gonna reply to that person. And so I actually appreciate the bumping. I just, I can't stand it when it's like the sort of no thought went into it. I can't stand it when somebody emails a copy and pasted template that you can tell they didn't even tweak it for me. And then they have some sort of automated follow up system that just says want to make sure you saw that. And then two days later, hey, wanted to make sure you saw that.

You know, come on, you lazy ass.

I don't mind the automation. I hate the laziness of it.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's, that's the issue you'll run into. It's, it was funny though. It's. I found like you're right. I have a lot of people who are, who like the second email for some reason we have a, A follow up and it's, it's unfortunately It's a lazy follow up. I'll be honest with you, Joe, but I'll be like, it's. I'll tell you right now, the subject line is like little nudge and then like a smiley face.

It's like, hey, name. Just making, just, just making sure it was it just a friendly nudge on this. Did you see? So and so. Hope you're having an awesome day, Louis. And it works so many times. Like, I get so many responses off of that.

Yeah.

But I'm sure the first email, the initial one that you sent it actually had some value to it.

Oh, yeah, exactly. That thing goes in deep. And that's probably what they're like. They missed that and they're like, oh, oh yeah, this person tried. Okay, cool.

No, seriously, that follow up, that's a great example. I do very similar things. It's just like a couple lines. You don't need to have a whole nother paragraph pitch. It's like, no, we're all busy. We're all fucking flooded with emails. Like, just help me out.

Neville Medora. So I was talking to him on an old podcast that I had and he actually, what he does is he literally just writes the word bump. He just writes bump and then sends it again and it bumps it to the top of the person's inbox.

That's right.

And he said that it's been super effective for getting him replies.

Love it. I love it.

Dude, there's no emotion in there. We're just like trying to get shit done. It's like, hey, bump.

If you ignore it. Okay, Bump.

I love that. Yeah, that's cool.

Another Boston name.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, exactly. I funny, I briefly met him at that Mastermind or that think tank I was at a couple weeks ago. And such a smart guy and I've been following his blog for years. So I'm a huge Neville Mador fan.

To keep going here with the growth strategies. The second thing I see that is a huge something that's huge that no one's really doing is I think you guys are doing it too. So kudos to you guys. You're pretty ahead of the game here. It's creating really high value lead magnets with your podcast content and then taking that content and running paid traffic against it.

We do those.

Right? So that's the thing. A lot of people are sitting on hundreds of episodes or they have tons of great stuff in there, but no one's taking it apart and turning it into a high value lead magnet or something else. A training or something and then taking it against, putting against paid ads and then having people opt in for that and they click through to the podcast.

So what are some good. Yeah, what are some good examples that you can give us on that?

Yeah, so Russell Brunson does a good job with this. If you type in Russell Brunson binge guide podcast that should come up, you find his funnel and basically it's a clickfunnels page. Enter your name and email and he sends you like a PDF of all like the highlights from every single episode he's done on his marketing in your car. I think it's marketing your car podcast. Yeah, I think so, yeah. And the links go straight to the podcast. So now with that strategy, you can easily get the podcast on paid traffic and running it relatively cheap because you're just getting people to opt in. You're not like, you know, it's not a hard thing to do.

Yeah.

So. And then besides that, you can retarget them with the Facebook pixel so you can make it look like, look alike audience and scale that. So that's the second thing I'd say it's. And because you don't need to have a guesting, an interview show or anything else special. Just take your content, repackage it.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, so what we're doing with ours is every single episode that we do, somebody on our team is listening through it and taking notes on it. Not like, not like show notes that you that sort of tease out the episode that are kind of designed to make you listen. These are actual like notes on everything we talked about and any sort of strategies or tactics or anything like that. They take those notes and then we make those notes available for each episode through opting in. But then what we do to sort of further extrapolate on that model is that the notes are only available for two weeks from the time the episode goes live. And then they kind of get locked into a vault. And then the vault is our monthly recurring revenue business model. So all of this audio content that we're making gets repurposed into the thing that you're opting in for. And then all of this audio content that you're making also gets repurposed into the thing that you're buying from us if, you know, you want that sort of shortcut cheat sheet in the future for some of these episodes.

Yeah, exactly. And I don't know if you guys have tested this, but I've seen some other podcasters. Well, they'll take a five minute clip that's like not recorded or not like it's bonus content essentially it's kind of like what's your number one strategy? And then they do a five minute session on that. They don't put publish that on the podcast. They just talk about it and say hey, if you want the five minute session that Louis did or so and so did on on growth strategies, you know, join to hop in the monthly membership and it's there in the vault. Yeah, you know that's. I seen a lot of people that do other people do that.

So similar approach that we do on that front which we're. It's not doesn't happen with every guest is that we'll actually follow up with them which he'll probably get. The this follow up from us is basically offering like hey, do you want to create some like a quick, you know, 10, 15 minute piece of content that can live in our members area and that could be like video content explaining a specific process kind of like what you're saying there.

Right.

And same idea.

Now when you booked in to be on our podcast, did you see the link? I think it goes out in one of our follow up emails that it's kind of like a hey, here's what to expect from the podcast kind of page.

I did. I didn't see the page. I saw the. I saw the. It was like a calendly email.

Yeah. So there's a calendly email that goes out and there's actually a link in the email. When you click on it, it actually goes to a video of me and Joe talking and saying hey, here's we're looking forward to having you on the podcast. Here's some of this stuff that we're going to talk about and we kind of just have like a fun little video of just us holding up the iPhone talking. But then if you scroll down the page a little bit, it actually says oh by the way, do you want additional exposure? To get additional exposure, we invite you to create an extra piece of content that we can put in front of our paid customers inside of our members area. So we're actually even before people come on the episode, sort of sending them to a page that says and we actually set this up not too long ago. So you may have actually booked in before this was actually implemented, but we're actually asking people about this now before, before they even come on the show.

I like it. I like. That's really good. That's a great pre frame and most people will do it, I'm sure that way you have exclusive content.

Yep.

I like that. That's the first time I see people do that. I think we. I. When I first got started in this, one of the guys I modeled was Chris Larson. Yeah. From Expert. He's one of Russell Brunson's mentees. But he's got a similar thing, not for guests, but for him getting on podcasts. So he's got, like, a really simple video that's like, hey, here's my kind of like, here I do podcast interviews, like, every Tuesday. And, you know, you can book in here. They're only 30 minutes. Here's what to expect. And then just send me. Make sure you send me the link, because he has tons of people probably similar to you guys. He has a ton of people who want to want you on their podcasts. And if you're open to going on a bunch of them or any. Taking anyone, you can have kind of like an evergreen process that has people booking themselves in to be. For you to be on their podcast.

So similar thing. I'll send you the link to it later. We can link to it.

Yeah. I'd love to see what that looks like.

Yeah. Just to visualize it. That might help. Cool. We'll link that in the show notes, Right?

Yeah. One thing I actually. So I want to step back a little bit, and I want to circle back around to some more, like, growth strategies for the podcast. But before I do, I actually want to go back real quick to talking about being on other podcasts, because there's one last thing I want to touch on there, and that's how do we maximize.

The value of being on that podcast? How do we actually get people from the podcast to take action and start following us? You know what I mean? Because a lot of people, we do a lot of interviews where at the end we'll say, hey, where do you want to send people after listening to this episode? And they go check me out on Facebook.

Right.

Like, that's not going to get them too far. And so I'm curious, what do you advise that people do when going on podcasts?

That's a great question, because that's like the conversion piece. So I know you guys have, like, the text to full link, which is awesome. I think that's a great way to. That's one great way to do it where you're offering, like, I always offer my free book. Like, my book, I have a paid version. I have a free version. I give the free version away. And that's kind of like I send people to us to the same page. So that's usually what I, what I recommend. Like, you've got to have some kind of really high value lead magnet and if you want, you can put some kind of time barrier on it. Like, hey, we're going to, you know, if you're listening to this now, you know, we'll have it. We'll have this page open for the first 60 days and it's going to be all of my top books that I've written, all for free for this, for the, you know, evergreen pod, evergreen profits, podcast listeners. So I think you have to have, like, first of all, don't send them to like 20 different links like you, like, you guys know, don't send them to Facebook or, or anything, any other social media. You want to send them to a landing page, right? You want to be actually. What's that?

You want to get that email.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then you can retarget them and, you know, you can do a lot of other things with the text. So. So it's definitely got to be nowadays, not even so much a book. Like, it needs to be like a cheat sheet. Because I don't, because no one reads my book. Matt, you're one of the few people who read it.

Most people read like four pages and they're like, oh, this is a good book. Cool. So nowadays it's probably like a cheat sheet. And I think that's where it comes down to where you can. If you're a guest and you're controlling the narrative and you talk about tax saving strategies, and then you have a really congruent tax saving strategies checklist at the end, that's where it's really, really smart. So as a guest, like you were saying before, being able to recommend specific topics, like, here's what I can talk about. And then ideally, if you had like, maybe, let's just say three different topics you could talk about, you ideally would have a lead magnet for each three of those. That is really congruent. And it makes perfect sense for someone who's listening to that podcast that there's no reason why they shouldn't go and get the cheat sheet or the script.

That's my strategy when it comes to converting people from.

And I totally agree. I think that's pretty close to our strategy. I think the one element that's a little tweaked on ours is that we create a sort of unique link for every episode so we actually can tell how effective each episode we've been on was for us. But I can see how that could be a huge pain in the ass if you're trying to be on like 40 shows a month. We're only really going on, like, I think we do about four shows a month and that's like split between us. Like, I'll do two and Joe will do two. So, you know, it's really not that much extra effort to just clone a page and change some of the wording on the page for us. But that's the one slight variation that we do is we are kind of creating a unique page for every show we went on just so we can sort of see the effectiveness and if personalizes it too.

So we'll put the show name in there so we can address the actual podcast listener. Right, right.

Yeah. It'll say like, thanks for being on the Super Fast business or listening to us on Super Fast Business with James Schramko. Hopefully you loved it. Here's the freebie.

Right.

So we kind of. We tailor it to it. I think it probably helps with conversions a little bit. But then also we can go look in our back end stats and go, oh, that podcast really moved the needle. This one didn't really move the needle. And if something really moved the needle, then we're probably going to follow up with that person. Be like, hey, you ready for round two?

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's. I think Tom Schwab, I interviewed him a few about a year ago. He said him and his team do that too.

Yeah, yeah.

If you have the. Yeah, exactly. Interview Valet is his company. If you have the bandwidth. I definitely. That's definitely a good strategy. So, yeah, I find most people don't, unlike you guys, but that's a great way to customize it. So you just put the name like you put the artwork there or just the name of the show?

No, we don't put the artwork or anything. It's just the name of the show and the name of the host. Those are the only two things we swap out.

Okay.

I think we tried the artwork for a little bit, but we're like, ah, it's just too much effort.

Okay. I was wondering why, because I figured that could be it, but okay.

It would help though. For sure.

Yeah. I'm sure it would improve conversions even more. But I actually ran a split test using Visual Website Optimizer where we were driving traffic to these landing pages. One actually had the Show Notes image on it and one didn't have the. Or not the show notes the COVID image on it and one didn't have the COVID image for the show and the difference in conversion rate was so minimal that it wasn't worth the extra five minutes that it takes to do that for every show that we're on.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm assuming it's going to take a. Takes a lot of time if you're doing four or five a month. Four different pages a month. Yeah, opt in. So for sure makes a ton of sense. One question for you guys is, have you guys done anything with other. Or reached out to any directories like podcast directories?

Directories?

No, actually.

Well, sort of. I mean, are you talking about like apps like Overcast and Castro and Podcast Republic and stuff like that? Yeah, so we've advertised in all of those and then we've advertised in some other ones too that actually had assigned NDAs. And if you've done it, then you probably know which ones I'm talking about. But some of them actually require you to sign NDAs before they'll actually allow you to buy ad space because I think they're sort of under the radar and some of their users don't realize that they're actually ads. So there's some. Yeah, yes, we have, we have experimented with that. But I'm curious where, where, where you were going to go with that.

There's, there's a couple of them I know for sure. There's always, there's always a free route where you can do like, you can pitch them and say like, you know, you can ask what are their considerations or what are they their criteria for getting featured on like the front page, you know, so that's, that's one route I usually. I will. The top ones I found successful are podbean places like Podchaser. Yeah, I know Deezer, Deezer and Castro's have also have the free route. And then like what you guys are saying, also there's a paid route to that too, where you can ask them.

What'S kind of their paid strategy or what do they use? What can you do with them for that? Easiest one, I would say for most people, right, is overcasts, where you can basically buy impressions for a month. But for me, I don't know why you. I haven't found too much success in that, though. I find those people don't stay long.

Yeah. With Overcast. So our experience, we've run ads on overcast for about four or five months. Not simultaneously. They kind of, you know, we skip months here and there, but we've done it about four or five times. When we first did, it was probably Two years ago, and it was actually ultra effective. We paid about a dollar per subscriber. It's very cheap then. And yeah, I think in the business category, it costs, I think $300 for the month. Now I think it's upwards of $1,000 for the month. So it was a different time the first time we tried it, but then each subsequent time that we tried it, the effectiveness just went down and down and down and down until we just stopped doing it. With Overcast.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. That's exactly what I found, too. It's like, it's a great way to start, but it's. You'll get a lot of impressions, but the subscribers won't stick. So, yeah, that's. That's. I was wondering to see if you guys had a different.

We've had, I mean, the one. The NDA, one that we're not allowed to technically talk about. Those people have actually stuck.

Yeah, those people have been around for a year. Well, yeah, I think we ran that promo in March of last year, so it's been about a year. And it's still our second most played app. And I wish we could talk about it publicly, but I don't want to, like, talk about something that we have an NDA of on the podcast.

But no. So, I mean, they're not all created equal, which is really cool and overcast. I mean, who knows? It's a great app. We love using it, but maybe, I don't know something there, but I've done a lot of actually, I have done outreach to specific. I don't think it's podbean or podchaser and them, but definitely all the podcast apps. That's something I've done before is basically reached out to their support or whoever contact I could find and be like, hey, how can I be more visible on your platform? And they're typically. They'll let you know what I've found. There's paid options. There's definitely almost a contest where they choose one every month. And it's like, hey, submit your show here and maybe we'll pick you. And then sometimes they'll just feature you because they want to try it out. So you never know what you're going to get. Really?

Yeah. That's a really good idea. I haven't tried this. The apps, funny enough, I get pitched a lot of times by podcast app creators that want feedback on their new. On their new app, which is cool. But that's a great point. Have you guys heard of podcastdelivery?.com.

No, that's a new one to us.

I'll send you the link. We'll link it in the show notes as well. So basically, it's a recommendation email list where they have a bunch of people on the podcast who are podcast listeners and fans, and you can pay to be one of their recommendations for the week. I think it's basically how it goes. I'll pitch like you're sponsoring them. You're a sponsor for that email of the week. So that's kind of a new thing when it comes to discovery that I found. I haven't tested it yet, but it's something that's been on the radar. And there's a couple other ones that do this stuff where they're basically a new site for podcasts and they have a bunch of followers who are interested in.

Yeah, we've. We've done some stuff with pod news.net James Creedland. We actually reached out to him once because we had a podcast episode where we talked about podcasting strategies not unsimilar to this episode, and reached out to him and said, hey, we just did an episode with a whole bunch of growth strategies around podcasting. Would you mind featuring it in the newsletter? And he replied, and I think basically said, I'll do it this one time, but next time consider buying advertising. So we actually got him to do the first promo for free, and we actually haven't tested the advertising since. Yeah, we'll have to try that next.

And really, it sounds like a lot of what we do and a lot of what you're suggesting, Luis, is really. It's like integration marketing. It's like, how do we go into the pool of podcast listeners where they already live, they're already used to using an app or listening, and then just figure out how to show up in front of those folks. Like, we had Jordan Harpinger on the show, I don't know, a month or two ago, and we asked him. I mean, the dude makes like 6 million downloads a month or something. Ridiculous. And he says he wants to grow his show. And we're like, how are you going to do that? What are your strategies? And it was off air. And. Yeah, it was basically working with other podcasts to, you know, essentially. I don't know if I should totally. If I'm allowed to totally say, I don't know. Basically, it's just show up on other shows, episode swaps and things like that.

The stuff that works, the stuff we're talking about on a small scale is pretty much the same stuff he's trying to do just on a larger scale.

Yeah. But the key there is he's not like doing a bunch of little things. He's, he's identified where he can just show up in someone else's feed essentially or you know, pay for a spot sponsored spot on someone else's show. That's like his audience already. So it's something to think about, right? Yeah.

Kind of like an organic, an organic sponsorship.

Yeah.

Campaign where you're reaching out. I've had, it's funny enough, I had one of my clients, he, he has a show that's pretty, pretty darn big. It gets around 10 to 15,000 downloads per, per episode. And there are some networks that were actually pitching him to pay him to do a host read ad for their, for their new podcast. So if it's another strategy there, like you were saying, Joe, was it Joe?

Good job. Our voices sounds kind of similar in the mics.

There's no video here. So I'm a guest and I'm on the fly. You can listening out there. It's true. Like if you have the money and the budget and you want to grow, it's like you could literally reach out to people in your space. Go to chartable.com and look at the top shows in your category and pitch them. Say, would you do like, I'll pay you a hundred bucks, 200 bucks to mention to do like a little 15 second host read. I'll provide the script for you and let's run it for four episodes. Or you know, hey, name your price. So that's like a very organic way to do paid ads or paid sponsorships.

From your experience doing that kind of thing, what, what has sort of been the price range that, that other podcasts are willing to do that at?

It's a great question. It depends what, how big they are and if they already have sponsorships. So if, if you're gonna do this, it's gonna be someone you wanna aim like do someone with someone who doesn't have ads already. Because if they have ads, they could be like, that's a sponsorship. Here's my, here's my sponsorship page. You can learn all about it. But for somebody who doesn't do it, it really just depends on how much money they make for the podcast or what their goals are with the podcast. Some people, my client, he doesn't really care. He's not doing it for money, so he's not doing it for them. He didn't offer, but the offer, the going rates could easily be anywhere from 300 to 500 bucks for four episodes. You know, I would say test, start with that and then start with that and then move on up.

You know, probably not going for like top 10 in the business category because post of those probably already have sponsors. And yeah, they, the opportunity cost is too high for them to do something like that.

Oh totally. Yeah, they probably lose their sponsors. So it's, you want to aim for people who don't have sponsorships already but are already growing and they're big and they've got a relevant audience. It doesn't have to be a terribly huge show, but it can be someone like really like if they're talking about the exact same thing you're doing.

You know, you can, you can always reach out to them like that or invite them on your podcast, build a relationship and then at the end you can, you guys could talk about that. That's probably the, a better way to do it. That way you're kind of, you've already built some, some equity with them and you're not just pitching them.

Well, you brought up a good point too, is that not all shows are created equal. Like the, the smallest shows, like we, our buddy Steve Ul a handful of shows and.

He admitted, I mean it was in one of his conferences, like he doesn't get a lot of downloads, but with the amount of downloads he has, he's able to fill a room in a physical location of like hundreds of people and sell high ticket stuff. But he's basically squeezing everything he can out of that lemon and basically he's making the most out of it. So that means that that's a loyal following, that's listening to what he says. So if you can identify a show, pay him three to five hundred bucks. Like dude. And they're pitching you as like a really, you know, a solid resource to check out. They'll probably take action.

Exactly. And there's studies that show and I have to do some digging, give you guys the articles and stuff that I found this on. But the host reads, obviously the host reads do way better than some kind of like programmed in pre roll ad or anything like that. So because you're getting a recommendation from a source you already trust, the host is someone who's a trusted icon in the person's eyes, in the listener's eyes. So, so that's, that's another thing to consider when you're doing host reads like they're more effective than your normal sponsorship role.

You're right.

I mean it's something we haven't Tried yet. I really. I mean, we've been on this end of it where people pay us to, you know, we. We have sponsors on this show, but we've never been on the end of actually paying other people, you know, for us to be, I don't know.

Sponsor other shows.

Yeah. Sponsor other shows. That's what I'm looking for. Yeah. For whatever reason, my brain couldn't put that together.

So I'm curious, of the various, like, growth strategies that you've tested.

What'S sort of been the most impactful outside of going on other people's shows? What seems to move the needle the most that you've seen?

I would say, if I would actually. It's one of the things I want to. Before I answer that, when I answer, talk about the sponsorship thing to end off that. Don't think about. Don't just limit yourself to sponsoring podcasts. Consider sponsoring Facebook groups, email lists, YouTube channels. All those are fair game.

Yeah.

So just keep that open.

I love that. And just to add to that point, we actually had these guys, they do the Optimal Living Daily podcast.

Okay.

Justin and Lee, they came on and we asked them what was the thing that sort of had the biggest impact on their podcast, what moved the needle the most? And it was actually two different YouTubers that were in the makeup industry. They do like, makeup tutorials actually shouting out their podcast. And he said that that sort of blew up their podcast overnight. Just two YouTubers who do makeup tutorials.

They were saying, I guess, like, there's a thing with a lot of those YouTubers in makeup specifically. They'll about business. They'll talk about all these different things that just happen. And I guess it's like their favorite things. And they just got mentioned as one of the favorite things of that week and boom, just exploded. The podcast. They're like, okie dokie. Never thought that was gonna happen, but okay.

Right. It's some weird stuff. Like, to answer your question, Joe, it was or no. Sorry, Matt, it's.

You're good at this, man. Everyone jacks it up.

Yeah, most. Most people don't. Don't actually get the. Distinguish. Distinguish between. For the end of the episode.

I'm glad I did. I did better than the average then. Yeah. I think for me it's been shout outs on like big, big Facebook groups. So I've had some buddies on my show who had bigger Facebook groups, like tens of 15,000 people. And they'll post the episode in there. And those have been my best episodes when people shout me out in their Community, whether it's like, a Facebook group or an email list or mastermind. But what I found is Facebook groups with, like, really highly engaged audiences.

I think I already know what your answer to this is gonna be, but I'm asking anyway. Do you know of any way to sort of engineer that and, you know, sort of get on more Facebook groups?

Oh, man. I think it comes down to a lot of research, and I actually had a little bit of a training on this. My coach had a training on this that I really loved when he was sharing exactly how he gets on, like, gets in with, like, big Facebook groups. You have to look at what are they offering, and is it. Is what you're offering competitive or complimentary? If it's complimentary, then it can be. You guys can probably do some kind of cool JV or some kind of cool swap, whether, like, you do an interview in their Facebook group and they do a podcast interview for you. So looking at, like, I would look at complimentary products and complementary services or people out there that kind of run parallel to you and don't really clash. So that's. That's probably number one for engineering that. And then number two is similarity in an audience size. So it's like, if they got. They have 5,000 people in their group. Do you have 5,000 downloads a month or you can. Per episode? Can you command a similar.

A similar number? I think those are two big things when it comes to that kind of thing.

I could see that. And I was just getting the ideas from Facebook groups. I'm like, there's probably a lot of Facebook groups that our guests typically have, or they have some following, maybe a YouTube channel. It's like, you can obviously entice them to and give them all the materials. I know you have some stuff in your book about this to get them to share it, but being even very specific and offering, hey, down to pay you some money, too, if you want to share that with the entire group, like, you know, approaching, like, Dave Asprey's people winning, win. I mean, that might probably be a long shot, but at the same time, it's like, hey, he could share, you know, bulletproof, their story on our podcast, and we pay him some money. Well, shit, that could be a big growth lever right there for us. Right? You get the rapport already a little bit too.

Yeah, yeah. And the last thing I'll say here, I know we didn't talk about this, but contests, contests and different types of giveaways, those are fun, and we've seen some success with that, in terms of, especially with growing an email list, those have been really effective.

Yeah. What sort of giveaways have you done? Like what sort of prizes? Because I know when it comes to giveaways, I think relevancy is kind of key. We've done some giveaways in the past where we got a bunch of people to join our list and follow us on Twitter or whatever. I don't even remember all the criteria that we asked for. But if, if it's something like, okay, we're gonna give you an iPad. It's so broad, everybody wants an iPad that you're just getting a crap ton of people enter your contest. They're just totally unqualified.

Yeah, yeah. So relevancy is super, is super, super important. Um, give different ideas. We've done, we've given away retreats, given away different, like different types of supplements and protein, like protein supplements, health and fitness supplements. Whether it's like a detox or something. Giving away different types of event tickets, I find, I like event tickets personally and retreats because then there's opportunity to carry, to build a relationship with that person. Especially if they're in your, in your world. Yeah. And they're probably a potential buyer anyways. It's great because that's a good idea. I like that sold into something else. They got there for free, you know.

So it's a good way to fill a room. When it's already hard enough to fill a room, you might as well give it away.

We even have event tickets available to us. We should do that like now.

I love that.

I love that concept, actually.

Yeah, you guys should do a giveaway for like, you know, Evergreen Profits Live.

Yeah, I love that.

Seriously.

Well, I mean, so we're speaking on some stages, we're speaking at TNC and PodFest and a handful of other things throughout the upcoming year. And when you go and speak at these places, a lot of times they'll give you an allotment and say if you want to invite a couple people, we're gonna give you a few extra tickets that you can give away. And so we have a handful of those tickets.

Still couldn't be discounts. It's like, you know, discounted tickets. Like. Yeah, we'll invest in that if we get you out there.

Yeah, no, I think that's a, I think that's a really smart way to go about it.

Yeah, yeah. Giveaways. I think retreats, maybe sometimes one on one calls as well will work if you're. If, if your audience really loves you. And you can do one on one calls, you know, three or four. And you have something to offer them, a value, you know, maybe afterwards. Or maybe you just give them some access to some free stuff courses as well. I've seen people give away courses, so it runs. It's a very wide spectrum. I would just say for people listening, thinking about giving stuff away. Be careful with physical stuff. And unfortunately, if people who win live in like Europe or Australia, it's going to cost you an arm or leg to send it over there. So just be careful.

It's true. Yeah. No, you can get in. It's just complicated.

Stick to digital or something you can control more or less.

Right.

How would you like, where would these contests live? Like, do you do Facebook contests? Is it right there on the podcast? Kind of a rough structure.

Yeah. So I'll have a, I can, I'll send you my, my, my funnel for, for like contests. It's like a copy and paste funnel. Like you can put in the show notes. People can see it and it's, it's a clickfunnels page. So you can just duplicate, duplicate it out. Yep. And that. What we'll do is normally we'll do like a little ad or promo on the podcast. Nowadays what I find is easier is if you just have like a little like a two minute episode instead of like. Because what happens is people listen to the episode from like six months down the road and they'll hit you up like, hey, is the contest still live? It's like, no. So if you have it as a separate episode, you can just delete it off your feed afterwards, which makes it easier and cleaner. Got it. So you can promote it on the podcast, promote it on your Facebook, change your banners on LinkedIn and, and YouTube to drive traffic to the contest for that month. You can have some paid traffic going to it. And then also if you. It's something I learned from Noah Kagan on his blog. What you would do to make it really good is you would invite other companies or people like maybe old podcast guests, like, hey, would you like to be a part of our contest or sponsor our contest? And they would get something away for free and then they would also help you promote it too in order to get access to a wider audience. Because now they have something in the giveaway that their audience probably love to get too.

Sure. They're invested in it.

Exactly. So getting them to help promote or giving them the tools to promote maybe a couple email swipes is a really cool way because now you've got a higher value or higher perceived value contest with all these people by all their courses or their retreats or whatever as the prizes. And now you've also got them invested in it, so now they can go ahead and, and also share it as well.

Very cool.

Shout out to Noah Kagan for that one.

Noah. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Sweet.

Well, I, I think we're already over time. That hour just like flew by super fast.

Sorry. We actually went over. I was like, oh, crap, I got to wrap this up.

Oh no. It's been an awesome conversation and obviously a very selfish one because we want to grow our podcast, so I think might as well learn from the best.

A good takeaway. Like for anyone listening, if you don't have a podcast, just go back to what we were talking about. Just content in general. Like even with contests and all these reaching out to get featured somewhere, it's like it all applies. It all applies. So yeah, just don't get lost in the terms.

Yeah, no, no, yeah. This is transferable across many mediums.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Now, a couple quick wrap up questions here. Do you have any books that you recommend to your clients or maybe you refer back to often, or any books that have just been really impactful that you revisit every once in a while?

I do. I have a book right in front of me. It's called Words that Sell.

Words that Sell is. A book is literally like a swipe file, a giant swipe file book. So if you're writing emails, if you're writing copy, if you're writing things and you want a different way to phrase something, I have this book, it's open on my desk all the time and I just flip through it sometimes and I look for different ways to lead in to emails or Facebook posts, things like that, or even like podcast titles.

I could say that that's actually one of the things I struggle with, but I don't think we have time to get into that. Today is actually how to name the podcast episodes.

Right. That's a whole. It's copywriting 101. Right?

Yeah.

Super important. So Words that Sell. It's by. Look here, it's by Richard Banyan. B A Y A N. I've given this book away a bunch of times. It's really good. So that's. That's one podcast specific, I would say. There's a podcast book out there called Big Podcast.

Oh yeah, I've got that one by Hooper or Hopper. David Hooper or something, I think.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's him trying to pull it up in front of me. That's a good one too. I'll look through that every now and then just to get some ideas. He's from the radio. He's from the radio space originally, I believe. And he's got some really interesting takes on some on ways to grow your podcast. So those two, I would say, are good starts.

Yeah, that's probably my two biggest ones. Besides my own, of course.

Yeah. And yours is how to get your first 100,000 podcast downloads in 100 days. So where can folks go? Check you out and get that book too.

Best place to go to check out the book. What I want to do for your audience is give them a free copy.

Nice.

So we'll link that in the show notes, but that'll be over. Check out the hard copy. It's at Podcast Domination. Co. I don't know where you'll go if you go to dot com, but co. Yeah, sweet.

And then. Yeah, so in the show notes, we'll link up how to get the free copy as well. The digital version. Absolutely. Awesome, man. Well, I think this has been great. And I think around 2 is in order as well.

Oh, yeah. I think we could probably talk about this stuff for four hours if our audience would actually stick around for four hours to hear us talk about it.

We never know. We haven't tried. Right?

It's true.

It's true. Well, hopefully we run into each other either in Austin, San Diego, or at some podcast conference.

Are you going to PodFest out in Florida?

I am not. I've got a buddy who's speaking. I'm going to tnc, though.

Oh, you'll be at tnc. Okay. We're speaking at that. So we'll see you at TNC then.

Let's do it. Nice. Okay, cool. I'll be there the day before at. Are you heard of Mimosa Mastermind, huh?

Yep. That's Amber Spears.

Amber Spears and Brian and Brett Farrell.

Okay, we know Amber. I don't know Brett.

Yeah, I'll introduce you to Brett. Brett's a really, really good guy. We're launching this podcast soon for one of his. One of his, like celebrity, like medical, like doctors.

Has a big, big following and we're launching it for him. So that'll be fun. But yeah, the most of Mastermind's really cool. A lot of affiliate markers in there. Yeah, probably.

Guys, you both know she's invited us. Yeah, it was like late last year. It was a super last minute thing. Cabo, right? Yeah. Well, last time it was at least.

Yeah, yeah, she invited us to the Cabo one, but, yeah, it was like, it's happening this weekend. We're like, oh, shit, not gonna happen.

But sorry, Amber.

Very cool.

Luis, this has been amazing. We'll have to do a round two. Looking forward to hanging out at TNC next month. So that'll be fun. And appreciate you taking the time today.

Yeah, thank you, guys both. I appreciate it. Looking forward to both having you guys on my show as well.

Thank you, man.

So we got to get that set up soon.

We'll do it. All right, brother.

Did we shout out the name of your show? What's the name of your show?

Oh, the Podcast Domination Show. That's the main one.

Okay. Podcast Domination Show. So if they go to Podcast Domination Co, they'll get introduced to your podcast through the book.

They will. So they download the book. I have plugs for it in there as well, so that'll work.

Get the book, go to the show. Notes. Awesome, Luis. Thanks, man.

Yeah, thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Cheers.

Thanks so much for tuning into that episode. I hope you dug it. I know Joe and I dug it. I actually kicked Joe out of the room. He's not here right now. Because I wanted to tell you about a tool that I really, really dig. We use it in our business. We recommend it all the time. It's called Easy Webinar, and it's a tool that lets you do live webinars, automated webinars, hybrid webinars, and, you know, pretty much any other kind of webinar if there are other kinds of webinars. But anyway, this tool is kind of like your all in one, do it all tool for anything webinar related. It's Easy Webinar. It's put out by a dude named Casey Zieman. He's been on the podcast. If you haven't listened to that episode, it's a killer episode. He's a really smart dude, but his software is amazing. It does everything. It. It's, you know, the title tells you exactly what it does. It's an easy webinar platform, and we use this in our business to run automated webinars all the time. We don't do a lot of live webinars these days. We like to do the kind of automated webinars where somebody can register and then it. You know, they can either watch it like, 15 minutes later or they can watch it the next day, but it's just kind of always running. And it's a system that helps us make autopilot sales off of our webinars. Super, super cool tool. If you haven't tried it yet, you know, it's, it's, it's an amazing tool. And Casey is actually hooking you up. He said for listeners of Hustle and Flowchart, I can't believe he's doing this, but he said for listeners of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, he's giving 25% off of the membership to use Easy Webinar. It's already super, super inexpensive for what it does and all the cool features it has. But he's hooking you up with 25% off because you're a listener of Hustle and Flowchart. Go to easy webinar.com hustle that's where you can get that 25% off discount. That's easy webinar.com hustle it's a awesome tool. You're going to dig it. So just go grab it. Check it out. Easywebinar.com hustle See ya. No, not see. You'll hear me in the next show. I don't know. I don't know how to close these things. Go get Easy Webinar. Talk to you later.

Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to, listen to, and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

Go get it.

Wiki Wiki.

We love you.