Marisa Murgatroyd - A Blueprint To Create Courses That Get People Results

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and float. Shark with your boy, my boy, Matt Wolf.

Hey.

A bibbidi boppity boo to you.

Cha ching, cha ching. I'm gamifying over here.

You're gamifying? What are you gamifying?

My. My online courses. Okay.

Cha ching, cha ching.

Yeah, see, now you're on my way. It took you a second there.

Gotcha. Okay, so your mission, if you choose to accept it, should you choose to accept it, is to have an online course ready to go after listening to this podcast.

Ooh, wow. So you only have, like an hour.

No, no, no. You can have a window of time to build it.

Like. Oh. So you could pause and then build a little bit. By the time of this episode's done.

You better have that damn course.

Better be making some good money for you too. Yeah.

Um, today we're talking to Marisa Murgatroyd.

Good job. And. And today she is actually going to teach you how to do exactly what that mission was stating. Exactly. So it'll make a lot more sense in a minute here. So just bear with us here.

Sometimes our incoherent ramblings are actually less incoherent once you actually hear what we're referencing later in the show.

Typically, always that's the case.

Typically, always. Sometimes.

50% chance that's always the case.

Right.

I don't know. See, I'm sor. Starting to go down the wavelength. Yeah, yeah. Marisa is amazing in terms of, like, she literally brings in a whole brand new perspective of creating a course, marketing the course, but also delivering it, and supporting folks that buy an online training from you. And she, like, it's like deep psychology. You could tell she studied this for a long time and she pretty much. That's the whole gamifying reference and supporting all that stuff. Like, so the entire process, she's thought it through, and she's basically going to line out a lot of these points to you so you can learn this and apply it. And ideally, I mean, she has a cool resource as well where you can actually dive deeper for free, which is really cool, and you should check that thing out.

Well, she's actually put some cool stuff together over@liveyourmessage.com hustle.

Ooh, that's a good one. Yeah.

So she's actually hooking you up with some cool resources and some cool things that you can work through to help you get your course online. So definitely check that out over@liveyourmessage.com.

Listen to that enthusiasm from Matthew. Yes.

No, but here's what I loved about this episode is there's so many people that go out there and create courses because they're told, you know, you should have an online course or, ooh, you're a smart feller.

Thank you.

You should go make a course. Oh, I meant to say fart smeller. You're a fart smeller. You should go make a course.

It's occasional.

Yeah.

So what did I do? Oh, I brain dumped everything into these modules and I expect everyone to complete the course. Right. Yeah. Is that why you make the course?

No. What I loved about this episode was she actually explains the psychology behind pretty much every element of the course. Like, what should your sales message be to get people interested in the course?

Psychology.

What is. I'm just gonna say psychology. What is the goal of every single video? I'm just, like, waiting for you to use my hands, yell at my ear.

I'm not gonna do that. It's psychology.

But no, she breaks down the psychology behind every element of a membership site, and most people are freaking doing it wrong.

It's true. Even us, and we will be the first to admit it, but I would guarantee that almost everyone's doing it pretty wrong.

Yeah.

Maybe you're getting some points right, and I feel like we're all hitting that. Especially if you have a business and it's sustaining for a while, then you're probably doing okay. But I guarantee you're going to walk away from this thing. And if you go grab that resource, it'll even help you even further because it's pretty sweet. We're probably going to dive in deep with Marisa and her team because we know we need help in some regards.

Podcasts.

Yeah. Cool. We can talk all day long here, but when it comes to all that stuff, I know we can improve.

Yeah. I'm fairly certain after this interview, we're probably going to be customers of hers, because it's that good and she's that good at what she does, and we want to get better at making our courses, and we want our courses to be much more valuable to you, the people that are going through our courses. And I think she can help us do that. And by listening to this episode, I think she's going to help you do that as well.

Bam.

But also, yes, we took notes on this one.

So there's two resources. You get a grab on this bad boy. Yeah.

So if you go to hustleandflowchart.com comp, those are our notes from this episode. So all of the tips and tactics and resources and tools and strategies and psychological lessons that she taught us during the course of this episode. We bundle them and we put them in notes. They're@hustleandflowchart.com comp. That's all of our notes. You gotta go grab them. They're available for two weeks from the time this episode goes live. After two weeks, they get locked into our vault and you may never see them again.

Actually, you can, but you'll learn how to do that later.

Yeah, just go to hustleandflowchart.com comp, get our notes, go to liveyourmessage.com hustle get her additional resources from this episode, and you're going to be pretty well set on your way to have a killer course online.

You're going to love it.

Let's go talk to Marisa.

Hey, Marisa. Welcome to the show.

Hey. Hey. Good to be here.

Yeah. We've been nerding out on what you're working on, and it's exactly the stuff we love. So just making stuff fun, I think, in general, but also giving like a crap ton of really good value too, you know, in the process. So I think absolutely. We're super stoked to chat with you and talk about how you do it. And I know you coach a ton, a ton of people, too, doing the same thing.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I find that we've got thousands of customers and if they can have a fun experience learning something and doing something and getting results, they're going to be happier.

Typically. Yeah. For some reason, people just like to make things boring sometimes.

I know, I know.

But let's. Let's dig into it and figure out, like, let's. What did life look back? Yeah, like, because you said you've done. So you have a big old launch happening at the time of this recording. It's already been done or when it gets released. But you've done it for four years now and pulled off some pretty epic things, too. What happened prior to all of that? So let's like, go back in time a little bit.

Yeah, well, my past life, my past job was a documentary film director and producer. I was doing something completely different and actually remember the exact moment where I realized this is not going to be the rest of my life. So basically I was in the studio editing a film and my boss walks in, like at 1 o' clock in the afternoon. I've been there since 9 o' clock working on this stuff, and she's like, marisa can have your power. Cable. I left mine at home and I said, well, no, I didn't have my computer plugged in, so going to run out of juice. And the thing is, I was working against a really tight deadline, and all of a sudden she goes on this power trip. She says, well, Marisa, that computer you're working on, I own that computer in that power cord. I own that, too, so give me the power. She actually said that, and I eventually did after going back and forth with her for a bit. And the funny thing is, we had production assistants and other people she could have borrowed a power cord from. It did not have to be mine.

The director.

Yeah, I know, I know. She did my power cord that particular day, and I ultimately gave it to her. And I felt like I really gave up my power in that moment. And I was doing what so many people do. Even though I love the work, I didn't love the job, I definitely didn't love the boss. And I was ultimately building her company. I was making a thousand bucks a week, and if I didn't work, I didn't get paid. And she was making all of the royalties and all of the backend sales, and I was creating her empire with very little to show for it.

Was it like. Was it leading up to that point or was that just like that was the breaking point?

It sounds like that was the breaking point. You know, I. There's a lot that I loved about filmmaking, so I kind of put up with a lot. But then at the end of the day, I'm like, what am I doing if I don't even own the power cord that I'm using? Right. It's, like, pretty pathetic. And I had nothing to my name. And it wasn't that I wanted to be rich or famous or anything like that. I just realized I could probably make a bigger contribution somewhere else. And I was frustrated with documentary film for other reasons. I mean, the average documentary takes three years to make, and less than a thousand people see it. Now I can send out a YouTube video that a thousand people see that I spent an hour on versus three years of my life on. Right, sure.

So impact's a big thing for you, then, it sounds like. And the time, the energy you're putting into something.

Absolutely, yeah. That's huge.

So I guess prior to that, I know you actually said something in the bio as well, that your father told you that you don't have any of the marketing skills and you don't have that in you, but you've obviously proved him wrong. And everyone else.

Yeah. You know, when I graduated from undergrad and I studied art semiotics and modern culture and media and all this completely impractical stuff, my dad looked at me and said, I just invested $100,000 in your education, and you came out with no marketable skills.

Oh, man. Yeah. I'm sure he's hurting, and you're hurting, too. In that moment, you're just like, oh, man. So is that what got you into film and all that?

Well, yeah, that was more like the not marketable skills, right?

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Yeah.

Well, the funny thing about film is that I really learned how to make things look good and sound good and tell a great story. And as an artist, I didn't think that had a lot of value, because those skills are a dime a dozen in the creative world. But when you look at that, it's the foundation of all business and marketing. And so the skill set that I had over here, that was worth not a lot, was hugely valuable over here.

Mm, totally. Yeah. And the second you just kind of pivot just slightly, you can. The world can open up to you if you're. If you're definitely shining a light in the right way.

Yeah, absolutely.

So. So how did you transition into, you know, creating courses and launching your products? You know, what. What led you down that path after the documentary stuff?

Well, after the documentary stuff, I kind of stayed close to home, and then I started a branding and web design agency, kind of similar skill sets, you know, service based. And it was going fairly well. And I started dating a guy who's now my husband. And he just thought, well, you know, Maurice, actually remember the exact moment he popped the question, we're hiking to the Hollywood sign, you know, and he popped the question, which was not the one that you're thinking, but he asked me, you know, Marisa, he's like, why don't you create an online program? Because at the time, I was just up to my eyeballs in clients, and I was full, and it was draining and all that stuff, that client work and service work, you know, you know how that feels. And he thought that if I created a program, he'd have more of my time. Right. And we could spend more time together. But the moment he said that, I was like, but who would pay me, you know, to learn from me? Followed quickly by, what would I even teach?

Yeah.

And so it was just the farthest thing from my mind. I never thought I was an educator. I didn't think I was an influencer or anybody that somebody would pay to learn from and you know, however many years later that was 20. Actually, that was 2011. And so eight years later, we've got a multimillion dollar, mid seven figure online education company. So sometimes you don't know what you don't know.

Did he pop the question? The other question. Pretty soon after that, hopefully he did.

Ultimately pop the other question. To be honest, it was a lot less romantic than the Hollywood side.

It's like, cool. Now that I got your time back, I'll marry you. That's awesome. Good for you guys. Yeah, no, that's impressive because that's, I guess in business it feels like a long time since when you started, but really it's such a short period of time. And the fact that you've completely reinvented your life and you've created now this massive following, which is really impressive. Not many people are able to do that.

Yeah. Sometimes life throws you a curveball and you realize, oh, my God, I've been preparing for this my whole life. Right.

Yeah. That's so cool. Well, I want to kind of dig into course creation and the elements of course creation and storytelling and just all of these pieces that come into it. And it's actually sort of a good time for us because Joe and I are getting. We're in the process right now of building a brand new course in the podcasting space to teach people how to podcast. So, you know, some of our questions might be fairly selfish because we're right in the thick of it right now, but you know, there's going to be a lot of people listening that'll benefit from our selfishness. Always.

All good. A lot of good things have come from selfishness.

Some of the best things. Yeah. Better questions and whatnot. Yeah.

Babies, you know, that's right.

But yeah, like, we've made courses since, like, we started around what it was, 2009 and making courses. 0809. Yeah. So it's like we've definitely, we've seen the. There's definitely been like iterations of courses and ways to launch a product and gather attention for that product. The marketing, affiliates, you know, there's like so many elements. So people who typically don't know where to start. Where would you have someone start with, like, they have an idea, they want to make a course, and they want to bring a following. So, like, what does that look like?

Yeah, so that's a good question. I mean, I'm a firm believer of creating the right kind of product at the right time in your business. And so one of my most quotable expressions is that before you can make money while you sleep, first you've got to be able to make money while you're awake. And I think a lot of people start with the dream of massive scalable products with thousands of people and millions of dollars. And I usually don't recommend starting with this giant scalable product, whether it's a membership site or just a low ticket $97 offer, because you have to have a really big reach to basically sell that kind of product. And the conversion rates for Internet marketing are lower than, say, just direct sales. So it kind of depends on where you are now in your business. If you're starting out, I recommend that people actually start with more premium offers, something in the 500 to $5,000 range, for example. Because you know, if you want to make $10,000 with a $5,000 offer, you only need to sell two. If you got a 20% conversion rate, you only need to talk to 10 people. Right.

So you do the math.

You got a 10% conversion rate, you're talking to 20 people. But if you want to sell 100 products, right. I mean, if you have a hundred dollar product and you want to make 10,000, you know, sales, that basically means you have to sell, you know, for $100 product, you've got to sell a hundred of them.

Yeah.

And you know, to get 100 sales of $100 product at say a 2% conversion rate, which is actually even on a little on the high side for Internet marketing, you've actually got to talk to. And I don't know, I'm terrible at math, but what was that?

Yeah, it's same. It's a lot of people. It's a lot more work and energy put into it.

Yeah, right, for sure.

That's good advice. I mean, because that's something that typically people. Well, I know like something and we used to be in these shoes is like when you're starting out, you're like, am I really worth that? You know, the 500 to 5,000? So what would you say to that?

Yeah, well, I think it's actually the wrong question. And I was actually doing the math over here on the side. You have to reach 5,000 people at a 2% conversion rate to sell 100 copies.

Nice.

So where people do get like this little mental kind of twist is that they think, oh my gosh, I'm not worth that. But the question isn't about your worth, it's about is the result you can get someone worth that to them. So is the problem you can Solve for them or the solution or result you can deliver worth that amount to them? Because it's not really about you and how you feel about yourself and your doubt and your inner critic. It's about how valuable the result is in the world to somebody who wants that.

Yeah, I love it. Because that is, that's definitely a hurdle. We've heard it many times through our, you know, just the audience that reach out to us and our clients. Is someone really going to buy that? It's like yes. Yeah. The value. If you're actually presenting a solution, either time savings or they're making more money, you know, past that amount that they invest with you, kind of the sky's the limit when it comes to delivering value in exchange of some kind of currency.

Yeah, absolutely.

So how do you come up with a price? Like, you know, let's say I've got a skill that I want to get online and I want to teach it. I want to create this course around it. You know, 500 to $5,000 is a fairly large range and you know, you could have it less than that or even. I've seen courses that sell for a lot higher than that. Like how do, how did somebody come up with the number, the value of this information that they're going to provide?

Yeah, well, I mean, a lot of it relates to the format of the program. So something with one on one access is going to be a lot more valuable than one to few program, which is going to be more valuable than a one to many program that's completely impersonal, with no support or coaching or consulting or anything like that. Right. So that's a thing to consider, like the kind of program, like a membership site where you're just getting dripped. Automated content tends to be a lot less valuable than say a premium mastermind where you travel the world with Tony Robbins. Right. So you just gotta get a start to get a sense of both the format as well as the value of the transformation and the level of support someone has in accessing that transformation.

Gotcha. Yeah, so yeah, now that makes sense. It's like the level of touch, it's the energy you're putting into it. So when you're training someone for something like that, would you say. Because I guess there's a lot to learn when it comes to course creation. Because I know there's a lot of elements. People get hung up on tech, they get hung up in their own mental, you know, state of doubt. Like you were saying.

Kind of like I'm trying to form, like what is the best or I guess maybe list out a handful of ways you can create a course and the, and the styles of offers that are out there. Because I think a lot of there's just so many people don't know where to start.

Yeah, well, I want to take this in a slightly different direction. So basically I want to talk about a kind of product that I've developed called an excellent experience product. Because basically what most people don't realize is that the vast majority of online education, whether it's a training or a membership site or an online course, have just a huge failure rate that they leave 97% of their students, clients and customers behind. Which means only about 3% of people really finish those programs and get results. And so people want to learn, they want to change their lives. But the way so many of these programs are delivered are just really, really boring, as you mentioned after beginning of the show. And they're very old school kind of lecture based programs that aren't based on, you know, getting real results results right now and don't really work with the way adults learn, don't work with their natural psychology of motivation. Basically the dopamine and serotonin in our brain, the part of us that loves to win and feel like we're constantly making progress. It doesn't work for the attention span of people in today's age who are used to getting all these, you know, pings and bings and stuff on Facebook and Instagram non stop. And so I've developed a new kind of program that gets anywhere from 10 to 30 times the engagement and completion of people going through it by combining gamification and adult learning theory and psychology of motivation, all of these things. So this format, it's not just something you can apply to courses or trainings, it's something you can apply to service work, anything, coaching, anything that requires people to take action consistently where you need to motivate them into action.

Yeah, no, we could speak from experiences. Most people who buy online courses either, I mean we've been guilty of not probably having as great of an experience inside, you know, once the purchase happens. And most people, product fulfillment unfortunately is like the last thing that that's thought about. They're thinking about the marketing too much.

Yeah, well, I don't know if that's the case because I think a lot of people do genuinely care, but they don't realize. Yeah, it's like you're following models that are old models. Right. It's like the old school university style education is becoming less and Less relevant in today's world. So is the old school kind of information based education is becoming less and less relevant. So just like Blockbuster went out of business, when Netflix come along, I think that the traditional information product is kind of giving way to new ways of learning that actually are more relevant today. And if my very first products failed my students too, because I was just following the other models that were out there, I thought that the more information I gave, the more valuable it was, which is not at all the case. And so I think what happens is people buy a program and a series of very small negative experiences stacked together to create what I call the downward death spiral. And this is where people just give up, get frustrated, procrastinate, get stuck, don't even want to do it. I mean, just the way people buy programs you buy, you push a button and all of a sudden you got five emails in your inbox that you got to go. And then you have to kind of log on to a membership site and there are all these hurdles and hoops to even start seeing any kind of result or success. And I like to talk about moment one of day one. Exactly what do you basically have people do the moment they buy? Like, so many people think the most important moment in their relationship with their customer is that moment they buy, but I believe it's the moment right after they buy and how you start giving them an experience where they're gaining unstoppable momentum to begin the program and start taking action and start getting results right away.

So that's. I mean, I would agree 100% with that. Yeah. And I think a lot of folks don't think, because they have seen all the old model over and over, they've gone through school and all that stuff. So walk us through, like, what does day one look like and what is an experience? Like, what does the experience look like after that? Like, why is it so different?

Yeah, yeah. Well, there are 10 core experiences in the experience formula. When you stack them together, you create what I call experience escalation, which is when you've got that unstoppable momentum from what I call mission to mission accomplished. When 10 to 30 times more people get results and complete your program, engage with your program. And the reason why that matters is not just your refund rate dropping. I had one of my clients, Josh Turner, had a $2.1 million launch, and we dropped his refund rate by implementing this from double digits to single digits, which saved him at least, you know, 100, $200,000 right off the bat. Right. But you can also increase basically referrals and repeat sales and ultimately front end sales too, because as more people hear of the great results, more of them are going to buy. So there's a lot of reason to do this beyond just creating a better customer experience. There's a lot of selfish reasons to do this too. That's right, yeah. So how it all starts is with what I call the product mission. And it's not like your personal mission. It's not the big change you want to see in the world. It's basically the mission that your students, clients and customers are accepting. It's what they're going to do, be, feel, have overcome or achieve through your product. And I teach a very specific template for creating your product mission. It's simple. You might recognize it both from where it comes from and because a lot of other people are using it. Since I've been teaching it for a while, it goes like this. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is blank. It's my mission possible template. So, for example, for our signature experience product Masterclass, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to design, market and make $2,000 or whole lot more from an experience product in 10 weeks or less. So you instantly know what you're saying yes to. You know what winning looks like. And it's so clear that you could film someone crossing the finish line of mission accomplished. And that's what you want. You want that clarity, you want that specificity. There's no room for doubt as whether you've made it or you haven't made it. And that's when you know you've got a good product. So it's a product that's oriented around a very specific, tangible result that you could film. Not just like, let me teach you all of this stuff. Right. Which is what most people do. It's like they just are about knowledge transfer or skill transfer or intellectual curiosity. And the truth is, a small percentage of the population is interested in learning for the sake of learning. Without that immediate what's in it for me right now kind of perspective. Yeah. So you got to kind of understand that. And when you have a mission, you can get rid of everything in your program that does not get someone from mission to mission accomplished. Basically the only thing in your program is what's going to help someone get a result. It makes sense. Correct.

Start with the end in mind.

Yeah. So once you have the mission, so much else can come from it. A lot of times, you know, a great way to create a headline is Just take out the words your mission should you choose to accept it. And my headline is now, design market, make $2,000 or a whole lot more from an experience product in 10 weeks or less. So that becomes easy. Then you can wrap a guarantee around that mission. So, you know, basically our guarantee, it's a $2,000 no risk guarantee, is that if you don't make $2,000 from inexperience product in 10 weeks or less and you've done the work and you can demonstrate that you've done the work, that will make up the difference. So if someone pays us two grand and they make 1,000, we will give them $1,000 back if they can show us the work that they did and that they actually tried to market the product and all of that stuff. And so it becomes this ironclad guarantee because the results so specific, we always know in no uncertain terms exactly who's getting the result and who's not. And then we incentivize both mission accomplished and graduation.

So we incentivize education and stuff like that.

Yes. And also, you know, there's a big old button on the site that says, you know, I'm graduating or I'm, you know, achieving mission accomplished. And people get bonuses related to graduation and related to mission accomplished when they hit the button and they actually share their story. So we have 700 pages of testimonials from the three years of the program simply by implementing this, baking it into the program. And I never had to ask for the testimonials. They just come in automatically.

That's so clever.

And it's, you know, it's like a prideful thing by, you know, maybe an ego thing by them. They're like, I want to be featured on that page. You know, so it's another incentive for them to actually complete it.

Yep.

Love it.

For sure.

Cool. So product mission being a big, big key there. I think it's. That's smart because not only are you achieving a really good headline and angles into your product, you're achieving all these other things. And I think the lack of clarity is typically the killing of, like, any momentum and, you know, success in a program.

Well, that's part of the gamification. Like, have you ever played a game for hours and hours where you didn't know how to win that game?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Well, no, you don't, like, you know what winning. You know how you don't know what winning looks like? Yeah, you know what winning looks like. Right. You might not know exactly, like, all the Steps along the way, and you have to have all these challenges and things. But you know what winning the game looks like.

Yeah.

So people do not play games for hours and hours if they don't know what winning looks like. In the number of courses where it's not clear. It's funny, fuzzy. What winning looks like is huge, Right?

Yeah.

It seems so simple, but it's actually not very. It's not very common.

Yeah, Well, I could see from a lot of, you know, like, I know we've failed that in the past as well. And actually our latest course, like we did very similar to what you said with the guarantee and whatnot. And it's been great because people do actually act and succeed with our training. More so.

But I think it's motivating.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of product owners maybe just look too close to them and they're not thinking about their customer when they're crafting their message, the product, the experience, all of that.

Well, it's easy to try to deliver and sell what you want to offer versus what people want to receive.

That's right. Cool. Well, I think that's awesome. What's number two?

Well, we're not going to have time to go through all ten, so I'm going to skip to number nine. All right.

Okay.

And the number nine is unstoppable momentum. And by the way, each one of these principles has an opposite principle that when you. The positive principle, the experience escalation principle, is what gets people excited. The opposite is what I call the downward death spiral principle. So the opposite of mission is serving too many masters. You've got a product that's trying to do too many things.

And unstoppable momentum. The opposite of unstoppable momentum is start and stop, start and stop, start and stop. Unstoppable momentum is what happens when people feel like they're actually gaining momentum through the program rather than decelerating, which is what happens for most people. So this is actually related to how you structure your product. Right. So you want to structure your product in a way that stair steps students, clients, customers up from very small, simple actions that achieve small wins to larger, more complex, more sophisticated, more challenging actions that, you know, lead to more exciting wins. So you don't want to drop people in the deep end of the pool. You also don't want to drop them into the most boring stuff there is. So, for example, one of my students was doing a product on helping musicians get their songs on television shows, and the very first module was Having people go to list themselves on all of these sites, these like websites and studio sites. And it makes logical sense that, yeah, first you got to get listed and that's the first step of the getting your songs chosen. But having all of these creatives fill out all of these boring applications, that's going to create deceleration. Right?

Right.

That's not the first thing that you want to start with. So you got to go out of thinking about your product logically and linearly and think about it from a motivational standpoint. There's something called the growth challenge ratio that when you are about 4% challenged over your current level of skill, it's kind of exciting. You're drawn forward, you want to kind of level up. But when the challenge is like 50% above your current level of skill, it can be overwhelming or intimidating. Right. So you want to kind of ramp people up and increase the challenge over and over again. And if you can do this consistently, you'll see this kind of like acceleration and motivation happening through the program. So what I did is I worked with my student and I said, well, why not instead create a product that, you know, I mean, a first training that starts the momentum going. So what I suggested is to create a training that creates core experience number two, which is a future self vision. So this is a vision of what winning looks like and how it's going to change their life. So instead of starting with this really boring module, instead start with having them create their dream 20 list. So what are the top 20 shows they want to be on, where even being on one of those shows would be a massive win for the entire program? So say the mission of the program is. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to get your music on at least one national television show by the end of our, you know, eight weeks together, right?

Yep.

So you have bragging rights and royalties, right? Whatever.

It happens to be anything.

Yeah, yeah. So now in that very first training, they create their dream 20 list. So they're already imagining their music on these shows. But you want to take it one step further. You want to make this particular action completely fail proof. Because if this is the first thing that you're asking them to do, you don't want any room for a margin of error. So I would actually go another step further, which is create the list of all the shows that are accepting submissions from amateur musicians who are not listed on major labels, put them all in a giant list and sort them by genre. And then people can choose based on whether they're a pop musician or, you know, a country musician or whatever it happens to be. So just completing that training is you cannot fail this training. Plus it's powerfully motivating because now you're already imagining yourself on one of these 20 shows. You're creating a future self vision from the training itself. Is that making sense?

Totally. Yeah. I like it. And then we actually have a buddy and I think he's a friend of yours too, Steve Olsher with the New Media Summit. I think one of his big promises there for all the attendees is they will get booked on at least one show. So the podcasters are actually pitching and he's essentially doing exactly what you're saying.

Yeah, well, he does it as a live event. He can charge like five grand for this event because of that promise. Now the number of people who are just doing a podcasting course with no specific outcome like that can charge maybe 200 to 1,000 bucks for their course. He's charging five grand for just a three day event and he studied with me. He has been one of my top 10 partners for a few years and a few years in a row and has come to my top partner mastermind. So he's learned a lot of stuff. Not that I take credit for all of it.

He's a smart dude too. But I'm sure you influenced him a lot when it came to that. And I know we're going to definitely take away a bunch of these little steps here as well, so. Yeah, I just love the fact that you're starting with the people in terms of the customer as seeing themselves in this future place. I mean, you're wrapping up a lot of psychology around this whole experience, which I think a lot of folks just goes out the window. Like you said, it's just like almost word vomit. It's like just looting all my knowledge. I'm just trying to dump it into this content platform.

Yeah, well, we have this massive cognitive bias as experts or people who understand the topic. And we expect that people are fascinated by our topic. But the truth is that if they're buying your program, they're probably struggling with your topic. So they don't want to know every detail and every nuance. They want to be able to get a result and that's going to be a success to them versus having an encyclopedic knowledge over everything. And I constantly have to rein myself in because I tend to overshare.

Right. It's tough when you have all this knowledge and you want to literally give it out. I mean, that's the problem with us is we talk to so many amazing people on this show, but then we are always experimenting. So we're like, ah, everyone loves this stuff. Let's just throw it all in this big members area. But then we're like, oh, no. Overwhelm strikes.

Totally. I call that, you know, that's the thud factor. And when I was coming up, however many years ago, they were like, you want thud factor? And thud factor is the sound of a lot of information landing on someone's doorstep or on their. In their inbox.

That's like a Tim Ferriss book, right? That's like when you drop that on your desk.

He's got thud factor in his book. But the truth is that thud factor is really the sound of someone's hopes to and dreams collapsing on the floor in despair.

Ooh, that hurt.

But you're right.

Yeah, 100% it's true.

The other thing that is important to understand is that motivation structure tends to be different. So some of the most successful entrepreneurs are intrinsically motivated, which means that we're motivated by our own internal reward system. We don't actually need rewards from the outside world. We don't necessarily need that validation. Someone patting us on the back every step of the way, saying, good job, you go, you did it. Working, working. We don't need all that, but somebody else, like 80% of the population or I think 75% are extrinsically motivated where they do need that person being like, good job, work it, work it, work it. So that leads me to core experience number four, which is constant wins. And with constant wins, you actually have to validate and reinforce that they're winning every step of the way. So I never give any kind of content or training without a win attached to it, even if it's something that's mindset related, you know, and I have a mindset training, I will still say you're, you know, at the end of every training, I say your next mission, should you choose to accept it, is to yell at the top of your voice that I got this, I'm doing it, I'm not gonna stop. Right? I might say something like that. And then they could still check it off. And we've created a membership site where every time someone watches a training, they check it off and they get one extra xp, an experience point, right? And the membership site goes ka ching. And when they check off the action related to it, they get two. Because I'm already saying there that taking action is twice as valuable than just watching Something passively. Membership site goes ka ching, ka ching. And then we run leaderboards all the time in our programs. We have contests, jump contests to incentivize people to get caught up when they fall behind. We run an Operation Unengaged Student Rescue campaign a couple weeks into our program. So we look in the back end, we can see who has gotten no points or like less than five points. And the team reaches out to them aggressively. I say contact them via Facebook, messenger, text message, phone, email, every channel until you get a response. Because if we've lost them at this point, we're not getting them back. But if we can get them back now, then they have a chance of finishing and getting a result. And I actually have a story of someone. Her name is Jennifer Holbes, and she was someone that we reached out to in our Operation Unengaged Student Rescue campaign. And basically. Thank you. Yes, thank you. And so she basically got back on the saddle not because she wanted to, but because we cared. Right. And she said never in her entire life had a program reached out to her because she wasn't engaging. And. And because she got back on the horse, she got $100,000 contract in the program, and then within a few weeks after the program ended, another $150,000 contract. So she went from zero to a quarter million dollars, not from her own intrinsic motivation, but because she had the validation and reinforcement of us in that system, like that win system, where we were able to see that she wasn't winning and to reach out and to help her start to win.

That's awesome. I've never once heard of a product creator or their team ever once, like, try to, let's go find them, let's bring them back.

Well, no, usually it happens once somebody's about to cancel and then they try to re engage you when they want to cancel a refund. It's not usually just based on what engagement you're seeing from them, right?

Oh, yeah. And we do this all the time. Like our mentorship programs, which are five figure investments, is that I mandate 100% RSVP to our live events. We do three live events. So I know if someone's investing five figures and we cannot even get an RSVP from them for one of the most important, most valuable benefits of the entire program. We're kind of lost them. So sometimes we have to chase people down. Sometimes I personally text them, you know, because I know that if they're starting to like.

Come on, come on, bring it back. Yeah, exactly.

And you can't Wait until the end. Because like, like you said, they're just too far gone. They're already future pacing in their brain. I'm going to get my money back with a refund or I'm going to charge back. And that's like, that's. You don't even want to get there. That's not a good thing for anybody.

Well, they're blaming themselves, which happens a lot too. Because the biggest objection I see in this market is not the value of my program. People are undoubtedly see the value of our program. They're like $2,000. This is way too cheap. I'm getting 10 times the value. But it's the fact that they've been burned by other programs in the past. I've had so many people who've invested like, you know, five figures, six figures even in trainings and, you know, masterminds and all of this stuff and gotten no results whatsoever. Obviously, it's not just the fault of the program. They take some responsibility for that, but they're hesitant and they're gun shy about, you know, investing again because of that. And obviously our whole program is based on doing things in a very different way than what's already out there. But what the big tragedy is that when people don't finish is they start to lose hope that in themselves and trust in themselves that they can ultimately do it. Which means that the industry spirals where the consumer distrust starts to accelerate. People are more hesitant to buy even they can't tell the good ones from the bad ones. And there's less people who are kind of living their dreams because of it.

Yeah. No, I love this. I love that you dive into the why behind everything that's happening. Because I feel like these days there's so much of a, at least in the, like this sort of Internet marketer space, there's such a culture of funnel hacking. Right. I see this, this website that's working well, so it's probably going to work well for me. So let's just copy it and, you know, change the wording for my own thing. There's like this whole funnel hacker thing going on, but nobody understands why they're doing it, and then they don't understand why it failed when they tried to copy other people. And so I think what you're doing and what you're teaching is super powerful because I think the why is actually way more important than the what. Understanding the reason you're giving a mission for every single element, the reason the gamification exists, like the why behind all of it is so important and it's the step that I think so many people trying to create courses just completely skip over. They're just, I'm seeing them doing it this way, so let's do it that way too.

I think that just having a financial motivation is a little bit shortsighted in the sense that, you know, if you want to play the long game, you know, then your reputation really matters. Yes, you could sell someone once, you might be able to sell them twice, but will they buy from you over and over again? Refer you bring people into your company, probably not. And as you look at things like ad costs increasing, then you know, making the most out of every single person who comes into your world is going to be essential to your business. As is, you know, even years ago, the most healthy businesses on the planet, 80% of their revenue comes from back end sales, which means repeat sales, someone buying a second, third, fourth time, not just these one off churn and burn sales. And if your cost to get a customer is $100 or $200 or whatever it happens to be, or $500 even, which is not uncommon today.

Sure.

And then they only buy from you once. I mean the lifetime customer value I think is the most important number in your entire business.

Yeah, definitely. I couldn't agree more. Now I'm curious, what does the actual content and curriculum look like once they get inside? Because you mentioned yours is more of an interactive experience, I imagine they're not just getting in there and there's a list of training videos and they're going through each video. What sort of additional experiential elements do you add that make it much different?

Yeah, of course we have the training videos, but obviously the way they're delivered with the experience points, we even have triple XPS too. So I've got these two tracks, a core track and an overachiever track. A core track is for someone who's newer or they don't have as much time. It's the bare essentials to get them the mission accomplished. The overachiever track is some of the more advanced stuff that they might not necessarily need, but they might want. And they get triple XPs, which I call porn for overachievers. So when they click the button instead of going ka ching it goes bom chicka wamp wamp. That's awesome. Just that helps to reduce the overwhelm. For example. So the membership site itself, the delivery vehicle is interesting and unique. Obviously you don't have to have that hold you back. I think a lot of People try to invest in fancy membership sites too soon. It's more important to prove your model. And I teach offline and very low tech ways to achieve a similar outcome in your program. If you don't want to have like our hundred thousand dollar membership site which we have, you know, I was going.

To ask, it sounds like you have your own software.

Yeah, we built it ourselves. You know, we still build enterprise level, you know, membership sites for people, but not at the consumer level right now. But you don't necessarily need us. We've got partnerships with other providers and things like that. Then there's of course the, you know, we do coaching pods. So everyone is assigned their very own experienced product success coach in the program. Now they get, you know, based on that they have the weekly calls with their experienced product success coach and we have a milestone tracking doc. So some of the core milestones in the program, like your product mission statement, the kind of program, the price, a lot of the things that you're asking me, right in this program we have on a Google Doc. So every single person has their own Google Doc and every single time they put a milestone in, they tag their coach, the coach comes in and gives them a thumbs up or like, no, that's not going to cut it. And they get feedback on all the core pieces. So that's an important component to get that kind of customized feedback. And not a lot of programs at the $2,000 level give the level of support that we do. So that's a huge piece of it. When we deliver the program live once a year I also do, and I also do what I call Mondays with Marisa where I, in addition to that Wednesday group coaching call or that Thursday group coaching call, in addition to that call, I do group coaching. And then we have Fridays implementation Fridays with Don Crowther who you know.

Did a product recently with Jeff Walker, but he teaches on how to kind of do the implementation pieces. So they have this opportunity, doing the live version of the program to come in on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, get support, get coaching during the evergreen version of the program. Because you're watching this after the launch has passed. They get the Thursday's calls with their coach, but they also get unlimited email access. So because they're not going to have all those other touch points, we give them unlimited email access in the evergreen version to kind of compensate for less coaching. And we have a very active community on social media. We are running contests, leaderboards, challenges and stuff throughout the program. You know, that's happening. Our emails are more interesting we try to make our emails more interesting. Like the whole experience is more interesting. Right. Just as a whole.

So you brought up something else that gave me another question, but I'm curious. How do you find these coaches? Are these coaches all like past graduates of your course?

Yeah. So we basically have about 14 experienced product success coaches, which is a good amount. A lot of them are past graduates of the course. Some of them used to coach for, say, Alex Mendocian or coach for. Not Alex Mendocian, I meant T harb Eker or coach for Justin Livingston, Callan, Rush or some of them have this other background. Don's been a friend of mine for years and years. So there's different places that they come from and I train them up in our methodology so they coach our people.

Very cool. Got it. No, it's smart. I think just the level of support you have is what the differentiating factor is for you guys. And would you say that's how you can kind of sift through and take yourself away from the pack of folks that might not be doing it and kind of murking the waters a little bit? Because I would imagine attracting the people to you is a little tougher because you have. There's a lot of folks out there with different products. So it would be the support, the social proof. It sounds like you're layering so much.

Yeah. I mean, the 700, we actually have a link that we give our during our launch where people can go and look at all of our testimonials. Right. So like UNEDITED. Here's the 700 pages of testimonials.

Got it. Yeah. So in terms of like, you know, launching this thing, I know you do a live launch, which it seems like you don't see as many these days, you know, so already that's a little different. But what do you. What do you do to attract the right folks to your program? You know, come launch me. I know you're doing a lot right now.

Well, there's a live launch and we also do, you know, like an evergreen funnel using cold traffic. And, you know, we, you know, sell people micro offers and have just different things they can come into and get coaching, get support, get an immediate result, and be engaged. I do speaking, so I speak on stages and I'll speak to sell from the stage as well. So I like to combine, you know, the whole live launch with the evergreen funnel with the speaking and have just different ways of, you know, podcasts. And once I do these podcasts, people come and check out our stuff. And some of them end up buying. So I just, I try to be in all these different places. So I like to not put all my eggs in one basket.

Now, when you actually go and sell the course, when you make like your sales videos or sales letters or whatever way you're promoting it, is there anything you do differently about your sales messaging to promote the courses that you don't see most other course creators do?

Yeah. So those same 10 core experiences that I weave into our product delivery, I also weave many of them into our marketing. So our marketing is actually a bit different, especially when you watch our videos and things like that. I try to make the marketing kind of more engaging than the average person does. So yes, we do some kind of fun stuff in there.

What are some examples?

Yeah, so for example, when you sign up for our training series that we release once a year, our free training series, the way the videos start is I start with this kind of. You hear a voiceover, but it's got B roll and all this footage. And I'm talking about something completely. It's like unexpected. I'm not going to a talking head where I'm like, welcome to my video training series. I'm just to going, grabbing them with kind of this, you know, really interesting portrait sort of exploration. And then that has people stick for a lot longer because even if they weren't expecting to watch a video, it's much more interesting than they expected it to be.

I like that. Now in terms of. Because I know you're doing on and offline, you said events as well. That's something we're starting a little bit more of. How does that look and how does that fit into your business model?

Yeah, well, I mean, I do. Wow. I do probably at least one per month of my own event, you know, as well. So we do pretty big events. I do smaller workshops too. So some people sign up for our EPM Elite and that includes in addition to private one on one coaching sessions. Not with me, but with a couple of my senior coaches copywriting support with one of our copywriters and coming to a two day lab at my house here in Topanga Canyon. So we do those, which is fun because a lot of people like that deep dive with a really intimate group and the hands on support and attention. I speak at other people's events too. So, you know, they have me come and speak from stage, make an offer.

Yeah.

So there's just a lot of different ways that I leverage that.

Nice. Cool. Well, there's a. I don't know I feel like we covered so much. I'm like, you're really good at this, which is really awesome. It makes me really want to go and watch, watch your launch. I know by the time this thing's out it's going to be evergreen. So we'll definitely point people that way as well because it seems like there's just a lot for even seasoned product creators who might have been just kind of gone down the wrong path or just not the most engaging path because I know we have a lot to shore up on our end. Yeah, it's just really interesting. Where do you see. Because this is something I think you talk about it where courses in general, they're kind of fading in a way. There's definitely this feeling of courses and locking info products behind the gate.

It sounds like everything's around the experience, but how do you combat that?

Yeah, well, I think you combat it by implementing creating experience products rather than info products. Right. So I think that what's fading is just, just pure information. You know, like pure information based products where you don't have the engagement, you don't have any high touch, you don't have any support, you're completely anonymous. Feels like no one's noticing what's going on for you. I think people are less likely to just spend a lot of money on something where they go through it at their own pace with no community and no support whatsoever. I think that kind of product is fading, but I don't think that you know, online education is fading. I mean Forbes and expects it to be a $325 billion a year industry. But home self study, like home, those products, they call it self paced Elearning has been going down for several years, right?

Yeah, yeah, we've noticed that. As far as like tools do you. I know, I know you guys are developing your own stuff and your membership is, you know, something that you guys are developing out. But the people that are that go through your course. What's some of the like the entry level tools that you recommend they use to just kind of start setting up some of the stuff?

Yeah, so we include a. I think it's with the program they get a bunch of bonuses. One of the bonuses, a $2,056 tech and marketing power pack. So inside of that power pack includes three months of Thinkific Pro plus Grow. So it's like the top Thinkific subscription for membership site and they're one of our partners. It includes three months of, of heroic, which is a website building software to build any kind of sales Pages, squeeze pages, anything that you need to market your product. It also includes a monthly subscription with plr me private label rights. So if say creating your own lead magnets or even some of your own course stuff is too much, you can use white label, essentially someone else's content to support your own. It also includes, I include font, basically an ultimate product visual branding guide. So how do you create your look and feel of your product and choose your color palettes and fonts and you know, we give collections of fonts. Includes a how to name anything guide. So I give them like I've scoured the web and come up with 21 different naming templates of how do you create a name that's going to sell? So I think that's kind of the things that. And we do like a get, get your website done, you know, workshop as well, a three hour workshop. So we include all of this because we know it's a stumbling block. Now in general, I don't like to make a lot of tech recommendations because I think a lot of people tend to put the cart before the horse and think it's about the technology. But the truth is, is that everyone has access to the same technology and many of them are not successful. The number of people who tell me I gotta have a membership site, like, well, why? Well, I just heard I needed to have a membership site to start making money. I'll be like, well, what are you putting on the membership site? I don't know, I just need a membership site. You're not selling a membership site, you're selling a transformation, right?

I've seen it all too many times.

Not going to make any difference for you whatsoever. Even if you have the best possible membership site available.

Yeah, that makes total sense.

Yeah. No, the tools that. There's a lot of folks that will buy tools and actually ask us like, okay, so I don't have a product yet, but the software tool or this checkout tool that you have over here.

I'm like, if you think it's about the tools, you're a tool.

Quotable. Jacob, if you're listening.

That'S great.

No, we do definitely see it a lot because, you know, we're big affiliates. Affiliate marketing is a big part of our business and most of what we promote as affiliates is software tools. And I don't know how often people tell us they buy the tools and just never implement them. They're just like, cool. I bought this checkout tool because someday I might need it. But you know, yeah, it's.

They probably won't come if. If you don't have the brain and, you know, like the mind, mindset and.

The roadmap, that's how you use the tool. I mean, you got a hammer. You could either build, you know, the Taj Mahal with the hammer, or you could, like, kill someone with a hammer. I mean, seriously.

Right? Many uses.

Very true, Very true.

Well, you know, like. Like I said a couple times, you do have this launch coming up, so tell a little bit about, because it will be in Evergreen as well. So if people want to explore it, let's talk about that and how people can check it out.

Yeah. So basically, if you're curious about the 10 core experiences that I just shared to create experience escalation, your products that get 10 to 30 times the number of people to engage and get results which will drop your refund rate dramatically, increase your sales, increase your referrals, increase your repeat sales. I've put together a checklist. It's called the Viral product checklist. It's all 10 of the things that you should do and the 10 of the things that you should avoid in your product if you don't want to send people down the downward death spiral and get the industry standard results, because I think you're probably the kind of person that wants to get basically outsized, not normal results, good, extraordinary results. So just go to liveyourmessage.com hustle liveyourmessage.com hustle and you can grab that checklist and we'll follow up once you grab that checklist and you can find out more.

Nice. That's great. Thank you very much for sharing that. So it's liveyourmessage.com hustle we'll link it in the show notes, all that fun stuff. This has been really cool. Is there anything that we left that we maybe didn't touch?

I mean, typically at the end of our show, we like to ask our guests if they have any book recommendations, anything that you reference often or find yourself recommending to people often. It doesn't even have to be a book. Sometimes people give us documentaries or movies.

Yeah, well, there's one that I read recently that really impacted me. It's called the Power of Moments. And it's similar in that it's all about creating moments. And it could be moments for your family, for your team, for your customers in your business and how impactful that is and how memorable it is and out of the ordinary.

Awesome. No, it fits perfectly in line with what you have here, too.

Yes.

Just makes sense.

All right.

Marisa, thank you very much. And we'll definitely link everything in the show notes as well for folks interested. So appreciate your time.

Very cool. Thank you. Bye.

See ya.

Hey, thanks for listening to that episode. Hopefully you enjoyed it.

You dang right you did.

Of course you enjoyed it. What's not to enjoy?

We weren't gonna publish it unless you were gonna enjoy this.

If we don't enjoy it, we don't publish it. Therefore, we only publish the stuff we know you're gonna enjoy.

We listen and read the notes as well.

So.

Very, very true. Well, you know what I wanna do? I wanna actually start reading some reviews of some of the people that listen to our podcast because we're getting some really cool reviews. And also I wanna kind of incentivize people to leave more reviews because then we're gonna read them for you.

Hey man. This is our shout out section. Yeah, that's kind of what this is gonna become for the outro shout out section. So yeah, let's do some reviews and prior to that, let's talk about some.

Of the guys that have supported us.

Yeah, and there's a couple shout outs from our friends and some other folks that reached out to us. These two actually are our friends. They're pretty close friends of ours and they support our show. So if you wanna get more of an exclusive shout out, reach out to us. We have a couple spots available occasionally, so it depends. But the first buddy of ours actually Steve Olsher, he's one of our masterminds. He runs a podcast called beyond eight Figures and they're chatting with just amazing entrepreneurs who do have either exited or they currently run a business that is above 10 million and they basically grill. So they have three hosts over there, Steve Ulscher, Mary Goulet and Richie. Oh, they're all buddies of ours as well, all in San Diego. And they basically grill them until they figure out their methodologies, the tactics and action steps that actually got them to accomplish that, which are what few companies ever would ever get to that point for.

Sure, it's a great podcast. They cover a lot of ground and the whole thing is trying to uncover what goes into creating an eight figure business so that other businesses could reverse engineer the success. So, amazing podcast. That's Steve Olsher's beyond eight Figures podcast. Definitely go check it out on Apple podcasts and everywhere where you listen to your favorite shows.

You gonna like it. It's very similar to this one with different approaches. So I think if you're a fan of this, you're Gonna love his show beyond eight figures.

And then our other supporter for this episode is our good buddy Casey Zieman's Easy Webinar.

Bam. And both these guys have actually been on our show too, Steve and Casey, so. So if you like them, you can even check out an episode too.

Yeah. So check out EasyWebinar.com hustle because Casey put together a 20% off deal for listeners of Hustle and Flowchart. So EasyWebinar.com hustleen now, easy webinar is kind of a webinar tool, but it has live webinars. It's got automated webinars, it's got kind of hybrid webinars. It's got all sorts of social media functionality. It's got. It's pretty much like the only webinar platform you would ever need. It's got everything all in a single platform. A lot of the other platforms you gotta buy one product to go live and one product to go automated, and one product if you want to. Hi. And this one is just, you know, you get Easy Webinar year covered.

You got it all.

So if you want Easy Webinar, get it for 20% off. Go to easywebinar.com hustle and again, I just want to thank our partners and our supporters on this show. Casey and Steve, we love you guys. Let's go talk about some of these cool reviews we're getting.

Yeah, let's get into them.

Alrighty, Joe. I got another one.

You ready?

Got a review for us?

All right, I'm ready. All right, drumroll. Is this one a five star or a one star or no star?

This one is a five star review.

Thank God.

Yeah.

This one, the title of it is these guys made me want to start a podcast. And it's from Arena Warrior. I don't think that's their real name.

I kind of like it. Maybe he's an E game or she is an E gamer. I hear that's popular. So maybe this podcast is going to be around E gaming or maybe they're.

A gladiator and they fight, you know, lions and stuff.

Whoa, that would be gnarly. Yeah. They're listening to podcasts. Yeah, dude. Gladiator in the future. Okay, cool. All right, go on. I want to hear about this podcast too.

All right, so Arena Warrior said this podcast is amazing. If you are an entrepreneur, affiliate, marketer, or just someone who wants to make money online, it's such an amazing podcast. And enjoy the amazing guests they interview. If it's learning about click funnels, Growth, hacking, or even their beer business and app. It's pretty amazing stuff and all free value and content. Thanks, guys. P.S. they have a pretty cool T shirt too. They also have amazing courses on their website that is always being updated in their Mastermind Facebook.

Peace. Damn.

Well, peace to you, Arena Warrior. Peace to all.

Please don't kill us, Gladiator Warrior. But that's amazing. I wanted to hear about the podcast personally, so Arena Warrior, reach out to us. I want to hear this podcast you're starting. Dude, this is cool. Yeah. And obviously they listen and listen to the beer business and the app. Like, I think we mentioned that. The app part. I think we maybe mentioned it like, once.

Yeah, you could tell that people probably listen to a lot of the shows when they mention things like the beer app because it's probably come up maybe one or two episodes ever.

That's a very random mention. I love it, though. But yeah, dude, Arena Warrior, you're on it, man. So five stars. Love it. We've said it before. Even if it's a lower start thing, we're still gonna appreciate it. We appreciate all these. Yeah.

And we think our T shirts are pretty cool too.

Well, you seem to, like, wear something branded of ours almost daily. Not today.

Not today.

You have a PodFest shirt on. Love PodFest, too.

And Chris, hey, they didn't pay us to sponsor this episode. Chris, take that back. Just kidding.

Yeah. All right. I think that's about it.

Thanks, Arena Warrior. Make sure leave a review. And we're doing shoutouts on reviews and reading reviews at ends of episodes because we have fun doing it and we love reading them. And thank you.

See ya.

Thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice, simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just like listen to, and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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