Matt Diggity - Scale And Flip Affiliate Marketing Websites For Six-Figures

Back in the day, we were like, okay, we'll build 100 websites. We'll each get them to make anywhere between 1,000 and 10,000amonth, something like that, and we'll be rich, right? But there's so much problems that come with scaling a portfolio of 100 websites. So the thing that changed everything for us is we learned that you could just sell websites super easy, hands off for a high multiple. And then so everything changed. So we don't have to worry about running 100 sites at a time. We can focus on five. We can keep our staff down small. We can focus on quality, which is the way SEO and website building is trending towards these days. Quality over quantity.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustler Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Hey, welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. I am your co host, Matt Wolf, and today we've got a real in depth tactical episode around affiliate marketing. All right, I'm, I'm a Matt, and I get to introduce another Matt to you, which is always a great day for me. Today we're talking to Matt Diggity. And Matt Diggity is the founder of Diggity Marketing, LeadSpring LLC, the Search Initiative, Authority Builders, the Affiliate Lab, and the Chiang Mai SEO Conference. And he is probably one of the most, if not the most successful affiliate marketer that we know. Uh, he's got all sorts of affiliate marketing sites out there. He's got a course on affiliate marketing, he's got a conference on affiliate marketing and SEO. He is just super immersed in the SEO world. And on this episode, he actually breaks down his exact formula for how to pick which niches to go into, how to figure out what content to write, the ratio of good, valuable content versus content that sort of pitches your offer, how he drives traffic into it using SEO. And then as an extra step, one of the cool things he does is he builds these affiliate sites and then eventually flips them for, he said, over a 40x multiple on monthly earnings. So he might build a website that's making $10,000 a month and sell it for almost a half a million dollars. So really, really, really cool stuff. And he breaks down the entire process. And he also has a really, really cool course on it that Joe and I are about to go through ourselves, and it is called Affiliate Lab. And we actually set up a special link over at hustle and flowchart.com affiliate lab. And that actually gets you $200 off the price of this affiliate course. So what he's talking about in this episode, if you dig it and you want to go even deeper and get to a granular level and get his templates and checklists and all the assets you need to actually do what he's teaching, you can go get that over at hustle and flowchart.com affiliate lab. But before you do that, check out this episode. He's going to give you a deep dive on his entire process around affiliate marketing. Again, like every episode, we are taking notes on this one. This one is a very dense, tactical episode. So I guarantee you're going to want these notes. So you can go grab those notes by joining our Facebook group. If you go to flowchart group.com and request to join the group, we will hook you up with the notes to this episode. And as long as you grab it within two weeks of it going live, we allow people to grab the notes for the last two weeks of episodes and then they get sort of locked down in our vault. So go to flowchartgroup.com, join us in that group and we will hook you up with the notes for this episode. And once again, this episode is supported by ahrefs. That is a H R E F s dot com and that is our favorite SEO tool. We absolutely love Ahrefs. We, we actually talk about Ahrefs quite a bit in this episode. Part of Matt's process for promoting all of these affiliate offers is using Ahrefs to figure out what niches to go into, what keywords to optimize for what pieces of content to write. Pretty much all of his SEO processes use Ahrefs as a part of his tool. And he flat out said on this episode that Ahrefs is a big part of his success with creating these affiliate sites and these assets that generate fairly passive income for them. So really, really cool tool nature. That's what Joe and I use for all of our sort of SEO needs, for all of our keyword research, all of our content decision making. Ahrefs is our go to tool as well. And they're actually hooking you up with a seven day trial for $7. So if you go over to ahrefs.com that's a H R E F S.com go over there, you'll see a big button to grab a $7 seven day trial. I highly recommend doing that, seeing what it can do for you. And they're really hooking you up there because it's an amazing tool. So go check that out. All right, let's go dive into SEO and affiliate marketing with Matt Diggity.

All right. All right. How you doing, Matt?

Doing very good, Very good.

Thanks for waking up a little earlier for us. I appreciate that.

Seven in the morning. It's a good excuse to start the day and get started.

Yeah, you wake up the brain there, huh? So, yeah, you came super highly recommended. We were looking for affiliate marketers and we were telling you we kind of reshifted the show a little bit. The focus of it, we were getting a little wide on digital marketing and people were just like, affiliate marketing, like tactics, strategies, all that stuff, they're eating it up. So you came recommended. I don't know. Tons of people. Talk to Matt, Talk to Matt. So we're here and then we started Nerd nat on you and we're like, dude, he is like the best affiliate model and just scales too. And it doesn't require necessarily you doing it, the processes and whatnot. So I think we're just going to nerd out on that.

Yep.

So thanks for being here. And I guess, yeah, give us a little background because you come from what, being an engineer. At first you have this kind of mindset going into things to take us back a little bit. And I know you travel everywhere too, so maybe a quick backstory there.

Yeah. So let's see. I went to UC San Diego, so the words and study electrical engineering. And then as soon as I graduated, just started working for all these San Diego businesses, Qualcomm and Broadcom, they all got offices up in Sorrento Valley and stuff like that. And I was working for a software company and their job was to sell them some software that enables them to do what they do, make microchips and stuff like that. So as glorious as that sound, it was actually freaking terrible. The culture in the engineering scene, if you ever ran into any of these guys, is like, if you're not working 60 hour weeks, you're one of the lazy guys to not promote. This person is just holding us all back. Let's just keep him at the bottom kind of thing. So 60 hour weeks was a minimum. So naturally I had to start looking for other ways to make money. And one of my buddies named David, still lives in San Diego, gave me the four hour work week. And he's like, oh, check this out. And I'm like, this is insulting. I threw it away. Later, probably like a year later, I was like, okay, let's read that book and let's see what it's all about. And I ended up liking it so much, I went up to a meetup.com that was completely for reading and analyzing the four hour work week and having kind of like accountability with the other people there on your projects and stuff like that. So that's what I did. Everyone there was doing SEO at the time. There was a course called the 30 Day Challenge. So I was like, okay, I'll just do that too. And then that was all about affiliate marketing. Make a website, sell something on there and get a dollar in 30 days. And I just fell in love with it and absolutely just fell in love with it and haven't stopped ever since.

Was that Ed Dale? Was it Ed Dale who put out the 30 day challenge?

Yeah, that's the guy.

Was it Ed? I think I remember that.

Yeah. We've hung out with Ed a few times. Yeah. And I mean I think he doing the 30 day challenge, in some respects it works.

It's gotta be a 300 day challenge now. Man. That's the only beast.

That's true. Oh yeah. Maybe not for SEO. Something else.

So when you started learning SEO, did you jump straight to affiliate marketing with it? Was that like your first venture down the SEO path was start promoting affiliate products with SEO.

It was almost like affiliate marketing came first and just the modality of the day to get that traffic was SEO.

Right.

So I don't know, they happened concurrently. But the 30 day challenge was you use SEO, you rank a website, you build some links and then you're gonna sell whatever, something on Amazon in less than 30 days.

Yeah. And then you figure out on Amazon then you move somewhere else to make even more commissions. And then so yeah, and you have like an interesting evolution. So it seems like you figured that out. You got really good at SEO and then you started what you thing that caught my attention? Well, a your about page. Everyone should read it because I think it's freaking amazing the way that you just outline your entire story. But you had a venture, I think it was the first one where it was like you and three people or three partners I believe, and what the goal was to essentially make these sites, these affiliate sites and you knew exactly what you needed to do to get it done. And then it was like you just had this really well engineered sounding plan for that. And it seems like that's what's carried on into what you're doing still. Is that kind of true or.

Yeah, it's definitely mutated like when we thought we had it together back in the day, like when I created that about page and started describing Our lead spring process. And I'm working on SEO, he's working on conversion. Da da da da da. The main thing that's changed is that we completely changed our model. Instead of building a gigantic portfolio like back in the day, we were like, okay, we'll build 100 websites, we'll each get them to make anywhere between 1,000 and 10,000amonth, something like that, and we'll be rich. Right? But there's so much problems that come with scaling a portfolio of 100 websites. I don't know if you saw what happened to Income Store, but they imploded. Right. So the thing that changed everything for us is we ran into the Empire Flippers guys. This is back like seven years ago, something like that. We ran into these guys and we learned that you could just sell websites super easy, hands off for a high multiple. And then so everything changed. So we don't have to worry about running 100 sites at a time. We can focus on five. We can keep our staff down small. We can focus on quality, which is the way SEO and website building is trending towards these days. Quality over quantity.

So when you start building a new website, is the intention you're going to definitely sell it or do some of them you keep and some of them you decide to sell. How does that work?

Well, they all will definitely sell someday. I would never build something that I have to manage when I'm 70 or something like that. I won't even understand this stuff in 10 years. It's getting so wrong. But.

Yeah, everything is made to sell, so to speak. But certain ones, we definitely want to hold on for longer and take things to a different level, especially if they have a nice branded name that we can see becoming some kind of household name. We got a couple of these right now that we're aiming for the stratosphere.

Well, I think there's a lot of directions here and maybe you mentioned numerous times about SEO, how it's changed over the years. And I know you literally on there, you call yourself SEO, like, I am SEO. That's awesome. So I know it's complicated. You said it's more complicated now than ever before. And we've had previous SEO folks on. But like from your perspective, maybe we start there, like, what are the core things that I guess the principles to you that you should always know about SEO? Maybe when you're creating an affiliate type content site or anything around that online, like, do you have some guidelines to follow?

Yeah, I mean, it's at a very high level. You could just Say SEO and ranking websites boils down to two things, content and backlinks. Right. Then you can take each one of these categories and break them off into a hundred different things. Backlinks you get what types of backlinks you're getting, how fast you're sending them, what kind of anchor text you're using, what's the metrics behind them, where are you sending them to? The details along each of these trees get pretty hardcore. The content side of things is not only do you need to be able to write compelling content, that that does what you want it to do to get someone to read a review and purchase something, but it's got to be optimized for the search engine. So it has to have the keywords and entities and the right frequencies and the right places. This is called on site optimization. And then on top of that, like it needs to match the search intent. So if someone's searching for best routers, Right. They're most likely looking for a roundup list, top five routers or something like that. If you serve them up a piece of content that says the router Plex500 is the best router, it's not going to rank. It's just Google is looking for a different type of article and that's search intent. And so all this stuff, I mean, the devil's in the details. Like you can use software for on site optimization. You need good copywriters that can research or the conversion aspect in terms of search intent. That's just kind of like where your SEO chops come in to be able to identify that. And you can either do this yourself or get a project manager. But that's where the project management comes from, the SEO. Project management.

Yeah.

And then just more, more, just more and more, more content, more links, and.

Keep feeding the machine kind of thing. Yeah. Once you set it up, and that's what it seems like, you have a good framework to not only build all of this, but really feed that content machine to the SEO, because that's. Is that your number one traffic driver for everything you do? For the most part, yeah.

But eventually when you get the website to a certain point, you want to start to diversify away from that. So any business doesn't want to stack all of its risk into one single category. So at a certain point, when you have enough SEO traffic, I highly recommend you at least set up an email marketing system. You do retargeting ads to get leads in there. So then you build up email lists. That's a source of traffic. You Got your retargeting ads. That's a source of traffic as soon as possible and that just kind of protects you, but also it's more scalable. If you can pump money into something and you get more money out, that's called an atm.

Do you think maybe you can walk us through? I know a lot of this is in your courses and you go into a lot of depth in your courses, but maybe at a sort of high level. Can you sort of walk us through the process you'd go through from like, you know, how do you, how do you decide which niche you're going to create? And then, you know, some of the website stuff and then the initial stuff you do to drive traffic. Maybe we can kind of start to build a little bit of a framework for the listeners.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. So most of the time, and I recommend this to anybody, I would not go into any niche that's like hyper focused, like best routers for gamers or something like that, because it's just too small. You're going to cap off at some point. You might rank pretty quickly just because there's not that much. There's not many websites that are hyper relevant like that. And you're just going to cut through the butter, so to speak, but you're going to hit a cap. And whenever you go for like a hyper niche, you don't really know at the end of the road how lucrative that niche will be. You can assume like, okay, everyone needs a router in their home. But like, you don't know, do people really need to like buy it online? Can they just walk into their Fry's Electronics or something like that? So what I recommend doing is either one of two things. Either shoot for a higher level umbrella type niche like fitness or like technology or like education or something like that. And so then no matter what, if you do get into routers and it doesn't work out, you could get into hosting, you can get into video equipment and stuff like that. That kind of protects you and you can scale that pretty big as well. The other option if you want to go hyper niche is if you have the opportunity to look at the marketplaces and you see another website selling and you can see its profit and loss sheet and you can see proof that, okay, here's this website on the Internet, it doesn't have that many backlinks. It's making $5,000 a month. That's something that would make me happy. Let's go for this. That's the only time I would just say let's go niche doubt is when you can see the end of the road here. So let's say you decide to start a website. The first thing you need to do is of course, keyword research. And for that I use a tool called ahrefs. Ahrefs is pretty much like the Swiss army knife of SEO.

They're also the sponsor of this show. So thanks for helping us with our sponsorship.

You just made the ad for us.

Yeah. So there's a few different ways to do keyword research there, but I find the easiest one is to just reverse engineer other websites in the niche. So you can just plug it into Ahrefs and it'll dump out all the keywords that that website ranks for. And if it's in within your niche or you just add these to a list. Once you have a huge, huge mess of keywords, it's time to assign keywords to pages. So, okay, I've had a bunch of keywords on routers. This is gonna go to my best router page. I found a bunch of keywords on how to install a router and that's going to go to a different page. I have another set of keywords on. I don't know how to troubleshoot a router that goes to a different page. You can see that each of these pages have a different search intent. It answers a different query. So we assign these keywords to each one. Next is you got to get writing. So you got to get the writers writing. You can always write them yourself and that's going to be the cheapest way. It's also going to be very much the most time consuming way. So what we do in terms of finding writers is we go to a Facebook group called the Cult of Copy. C U L T like Cult. Right.

You go there, you put up an ad and you say, I'm looking for a subject expert. In this type of niche. You must have experience. And I'm looking for someone that pays between 4 to 8 cents a word, depending on your experience. So when you go, when you guys find subject experts like this.

You'Re going to get there. You're definitely going to ask for any kind of example that they've written in the niche. So you get proven that they've done this before. That's very important. You also want a native English speaker. So one thing that we do is when we make these application forms for these writers, we'll have a quiz, we'll have like a Google form or something like that. We'll say Something like, what's your English level on A scale of 1 to 10? 8 or higher is required for this job. So people feel like, okay, I'm an eight. You know, I'll be honest, I'm an eight. English is my second language. But you're not going to take the eights, you're only going to take the tens. So this really helps you filter out that list, get the writers on board, they start writing. I would say you want to launch with about, I don't know, 15 to 20 pages of content. Good homepage design, good interlinking. I mean we can go down a whole rabbit hole. But I to kind of want, want to stop here. You want to interlink everything together and then launch the website and then now you're on the next phase.

Cool. So the next phase would be starting to drum up backlinks for it. Is that would be that be kind.

Of the thing that's the content side. Right. Like so if we're going back to that tree, I guess from before. Yeah.

We kind of skipped a significant part on like site architecture, like how you're going to build everything and link the pages together. Is your website fast enough? Does it load good on mobile versus desktop like these? This is what's called quote unquote technical SEO, right? Okay, so technical SEO, that's like site speed. It's making everything's interlinked properly. You don't want to have any orphaned pages. Like that's a page that just exists without any link to get to it just it'll rank. So once you get the technical SEO set up, it's time to start the backlinks. The first backlinks you want to build are the backlinks that any normal business in the real world would build, which would be like your social profiles. You build a Facebook page, you build a Twitter, you build a YouTube channel, you build a LinkedIn, all these kind of guys and then those are the first links that you build. The second set of links that I like to build is typically not used too much by affiliate websites, but I like to use business citations. So I will go to business directories. If I'm in the technology niche, I'll go to like technology directories and stuff like that to list out my business, my name, address, phone number. I actually make a fake name, address, phone number. I'll go to local directories. So let's say I decide to make this website's home based business in San Diego. I'll find local address that no one's using and I'LL use that in the directories to give it a little bit more substance, a little bit more of a realism. Right. Google tends to honor businesses that have physical locations or at least more of a sign that this is actually a real business and not just a rink and dink website. So after these two sets of links, we did our social profiles, our directories, then we get into the first set of links that I outreach for, which is guest posts. Do your readers know or do your listeners know what guest posts are?

I'd imagine so, yeah.

Kind of like we call, you know, podcast guesting often. So very similar.

Yeah, yeah. Offer some kind of content, get a link exchange. Like exactly what I'm here. I wouldn't be talking to these guys otherwise.

Truth. No, just kidding. No, that makes a lot of sense. So, yeah, the business directories. And so that's basically it with. And that kind of what just gets the traffic kind of moving. Or at least you've done what you can. Right?

For now, it's at age. Yeah. Like at the beginning, it's called the Google Sandbox. You're not going to get much traction at all. Like there's a holding period where you just need to do the right things, build trust with Google and eventually you're going to jump out of the sandbox. And you'll know that because your rankings just start to go from page five to page one, two and three. It just happens in a single jump, I guess.

For the SEO side, once you get that cranking, are there some ongoing optimizations or what's your plan look like for content after that? Are you still developing more or was that.

Yeah, so content's always turning out. But in this beginning stage, I kind of like the analogy I like to use is like, I planted this tree and I'm just going to give it a little bit of maintenance right now. I'm just going to water it every day. Maybe two or three pieces of content per month, a couple backlinks every week, something like that. Until I jump out of the sandbox. After you jump out of the sandbox, it's like this little sapling has proven to itself or proven to me, that's ready to grow up and be a big boy. So that's when I start churning out more content and links. Then at another stage when it's considered an authority site, then you really just want to give it all your attention. Possible. Publish every single day as many backlinks as you can. If you don't have that backlink already than you want it. Like that's the different. You give more attention to the sites that are given back to you.

So if you're posting every day, is every piece of content pointing to an affiliate link or is it just helpful content that may point to like a different money page? Like how does that part structured?

Really good question. So there's two different types of pages. We call it commercial content, which you're describing with the ones with affiliate links. This is your best router roundups and, and stuff like that. That's your commercial content. And then you have informational content like how to install a router or how to troubleshoot a router, which would link to your best router roundup as supporting content. There's SEO value in that. But no matter what, if you're making commercial or informational, always just make sure that it has keyword volume. Don't write something obscure like.

Should you buy a chocolate covered router or something like that.

If a page doesn't have keyword volume, it's a liability. There's no asset value to it. It's just a liability that exists on your site.

To answer your question, we try to keep them blend. So we're not going 100% commercial, we're not going 100% informational. We like to keep it about 60, 40. But we also tweak this to see what's the sweet spot in this niche. What does Google like the best? Is it 70% commercial content? 30% informational? Is it on the other side? We play around with it.

That makes sense. And then as far as the actual affiliate offers that you pick, how do you go about selecting which offers to plug in there?

The biggest criteria is not Amazon affiliates.

I just don't trust that program. Not only are its commissions that low, but in my lifetime of doing SEO, they just cut it twice for no apparent reason. Once their stock surged more than it's ever has before. So I mean, there's just no rhyme or reason to it. But either way, like sometimes you can find affiliate programs. Depends on the niche, of course. But you can get up to 40% commission rate, which is almost like you own the product. This is the margins that some product owners have. So that's a big, that's a big deciding factor for me, the commission rate, but also conversion rate. Like, does the landing page look good? Does it look like a decent product? Does it have good reviews already? Am I the only weirdo on the Internet that's reviewed it positively when everyone else has said this is a complete scam? You don't Want to go against the grain on that?

Are you more of a physical product guy? It sounds like over, like digital stuff.

Oh, yeah, mostly. I mean, I'm in the hosting niche, I'm in the online gambling niches. So I mean that's. I guess that's digital.

I guess it would be, yeah. But everything should apply for the most part. I guess it just depends on traffic, how you're getting that in certain areas, you know, the restrictions and whatnot.

Right. But we do a lot of supplements. Supplements are great. Right. Because margins on them are usually awesome. And like this is one of the health wealth relationships, like the big three, that even in a recession people aren't going to neglect their desire to meet a partner or lose weight and stuff like that.

And recurring offers too, I'm sure, is that part of the criteria is you do the work once and you keep the. Retain the client.

Hopefully sometimes that's more like in the hosting and software niches.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you, do you mess around with like the CPA offers at all? Where it's like drive to an opt in and we'll pay you $5 per opt in or. Because I remember when our first experience into affiliate marketing was 12, 13 years ago, CPA offer, and it was. We were actually driving traffic to CPA offers where all we had to do is collect like a name and a zip code and we would get a commission off of it. So I'm curious if you ever play with that kind of stuff.

Yeah, in the sense. So like we call it in our circles, we call it lead generation. So I'm not using a CPA offer, but I have partnered with local business in different areas and we just worked at our own like ad hoc commission. So yeah, we do a lot through there, but I have tried. We were in the auto loan niche in San Diego, so we did that for a little bit, but it didn't work out too well.

Yeah, I mean you really cover anything. It's really. It's the framework. Right. Like what you just described that is the thing that's going to sell whatever offer. It really doesn't matter then. Right. The structure doesn't really change at all.

Yeah, I mean the only time it really changes is when you get into like local SEO and you need to rank for cities, states, neighborhoods and stuff like that. Then your site architecture needs to be more thoughtful and you do a little bit more different optimization to optimize it for locality rather than just an industry topic.

Gotcha. So when you're ready to. I might be skipping A step. So you can stop me if I'm going too far. But when it comes to actually selling the website, what sort of milestones do you need to hit before it's sellable?

Well, the first milestone is you need to make at least $500 a month. So that's the minimum that most brokers and marketplaces will list something for. So that's pretty important, right? You can always try to sell a website yourself, but once you hit this $500 mark, now you're eligible for these marketplaces. And the marketplaces, this is just very, very recent. We're seeing multiples go up to 40, 45. So 40, 45x monthly profit. That. That can be your website. If you get a website $10,000 a month, you could sell it for $450,000 right now. That's insane.

So is that a new thing? Like, so it's gone up a lot recently then?

Yeah, like a couple weeks, weeks ago. It was like first start. Started seeing. I think it was Empire flippers. Like, everyone's like, what the heck's going on? Multiples are like 40 plus right now. And they put out a notification saying like, yeah, the market's demanding this. This is what people want.

It's probably passive income, right? Buyers just want. Or maybe passive or at least a new business to start.

I think it's also like, what's going on with the economy. Stock market's through the roof. Okay, that's probably. And everyone's super nervous about putting money in the stock market. I haven't been to the states in a couple of years. But I mean, what's housing prices like in San Diego right now?

They are going up. And I hear that the. But the. Yeah, people aren't really selling. The value is going up, but I don't think it's moving that much. But I'm sure demand is. I don't know about California. People are leaving California. California, we're an anomaly right now.

Migrating away like crazy right now.

But yeah, but yeah, I could see the need for high. You know, it's just a high demand thing right now. These digital assets, especially if they're. They're bringing in income is monthly. There's traffic, SEO traffic going to them. Do you know some of the criteria to kind of hit those benchmarks for multiple like that?

So I mean, yeah, obviously the brokers are going to like bet the site and make sure it's not a house of cards. Right? So clean backlinks. I mean, you can use gray hat backlinks or quote Unquote pbns. But they will disclose that in the listing. They're also just going to look and see like is this entire website just making its money from one single page? That's a house of cards. Right. Or if it's like one traffic source and one monetization source, all Amazon affiliate might get a smaller multiple. But on the whole like they're just looking for good websites with good brands.

Makes sense.

That was actually one of the questions I was thinking of. Is brands like how does that. Or do you think of branding when it comes to all these different sites that you create? Like is there a Persona or is it. How does that look for you guys?

Yeah, so we always try to go for like a branded domain name just because that it just makes it more scalable. Right. Like if, if I'm bestrouter reviews.com, guess what, I can only scale up to routers, but If I'm Tech Guru.com, then I can really, really get big. And when you're doing outreach, the backlinks, it's much easier to get a link to techguru.com than best router reviews.

That's true. Yeah. You're just obviously going for the affiliate player, some kind of you're broker in a sale somehow. Yeah.

Just to touch upon something else, there's a new, I don't know, buzzword or movement in SEO called eat Expertise, authoritativeness and trust where Google is telling everybody that it needs to have these three factors on the website in order for it to rank. How they identify that algorithmically is is up in the air. But the moves that people the SEOs are making right now are just doing their best to kind of show that a website does have a brand, it does have ownership. These are the authors on the website. There's some kind of credibility that can be attached to the words that are being written there. So that's a big part of it too. I would never just make a website with an about page that says nothing. We review routers done to try to go into making at least an effort on a brand just for the algorithm's sake these days.

Yeah. Interesting. I never heard of a brand and algorithm go together, but I mean it makes sense. Yeah, that's what they're. Yeah. I mean it's picking up everything else.

Yeah. Well, also a lot of times Google will tell you they want one thing in the form of SEO, but then your results will actually prove something slightly different. But yeah, that's a whole different rabbit hole.

Yeah, that's why you test everything. That's why the only in SEO is what you see in actual results.

Yeah. So I'm curious about your team. How many people do you have helping you run this stuff and build it out and grow it out? I know you've got your writers, you mentioned that. But beyond the writers, who else is helping you run all this stuff?

Right. So this is another really great thing about the pivot that we made from when we, when we started flipping. So whereas before, if you want to have a hundred websites, you probably need like, I don't know, 25 operators. These are 25 skilled SEOs that know how to manage content writers that know how to like do on site optimization that can fix a hosting problem. Like, like experts. Right. How hard is it to find 25 experts and keep tabs? Right.

Jesus.

So instead when we started flipping, we keep a small amount of sites, but instead of growing horizontally, we're growing tall. Right. So we're small amount of sites that can just grow super big. And the teams we need for these is we just have about three project managers right now. Actually two project managers right now. Which are our key SEOs. These are the best of the best. These are our A players. Right. But underneath them they have huge supporting staff. So they'll have general vas that can just do like handyman type stuff. They'll have content writers, they'll have an outreach team, they'll have a content editor that makes sure the writers are getting all the, like, the throughput is good and the content quality is good. And so they have, when they have this or they have devs, they have designers and stuff like that. So in this sense it's really scalable because the project managers are hard to replace and hard to find and hard to motivate. But the supporting staff, these are plug and play. Like, and if a website gets from, I don't know, 10,000 visitors per month to a million per month, it's easy to scale up because we just need more writers. Those are easy to find, cult of copy or discuss this, et cetera. So we find that this is godsend. Like this kind of structure is godsend.

So when you find, do you call em your project managers or SEOs? Sounded like, yeah, you call them SEOs.

Yes, we call them SEOs. I'm trying to. In normal, not nerdy terms.

I love it, I love it. So they sound almost like they're at an agency, more or less. Or do you find someone with an existing team and you're like, cool, now we can Partner plug or do you actually architect that team along with them? What's the relationship there?

We architect it because we got different ways of doing things and we're looking for different personality types and different positions. Positions. Yeah. I mean I would love if someone we could just absorb like a full set and just get them plugged.

So I was like, I don't know if this is like maybe you're just plugging, getting some agencies, acquiring them and then, you know, training them on your processes and then boom, cranking out more sites. But it makes sense if you have your own system.

Yeah, well, I almost feel like if there's all these teams that are already existing, right, you got the sort of project manager and all the writers and all the people below them, you know, if you've got that sort of infrastructure to go build this, what stops them from just go going and doing it themselves? But if you're sort of architecting and building this team out, then it makes a lot more sense.

So I'm kind of curious, I guess we've kind of covered it, but you're like your business model in a nutshell. We're kind of curious about that because there's so many ways that you can connect what you're doing and scale that. We have our own way that we do that through this podcast email list, retargeting. You know, there's written content as well and video. So what is your like maybe in a simple sense your business model look like you have these assets. Like what does it look like? You have a training area which we want to talk about. Affiliate Lab. There's a lot of. It sounds like you deep dive there, but what does it look like if you kind of pan out a little bit and how are things connected?

Right. So we've really took a deep dive into Leadspring, which is basically the affiliate agency. Build or buy websites, scale them up, eventually exit them. So that's the bread and butter business. But I got some other stuff on the side. So I have a client facing agency called the Search Initiative. And yeah, we do your SEO for you. And I have a backlink service called Authority Builders. I have a course called the Affiliate Lab, which you've mentioned. That's just where I train people to do exactly what we're talking about with affiliate websites. And then I've. I used to run a conference before COVID called the Chiang Mai SEO Conference over here in Chiang Mai.

So hold on, so SEO, Affiliate SEO agency. Is that what he called it? The lead spring.

Yeah.

Affiliate. Describe that. A Little bit. That sounds interesting.

Yeah, I mean, that's what we've been talking about so far. Some people call it Media Group. You know, just like you manage content websites and you monetize them. Our particular monetization modality is affiliate mostly, but we also do display ads and stuff like that.

That makes sense. Okay, what you got, Matt?

I mean, I think we pretty much covered all the stuff that we had on our notes that we wanted to.

Cover this exhausted everything that I had. And it's an amazing. I mean.

I kind of want to hear what you got around like Affiliate Lab and what you. So it's basically, it's a bunch of walkthroughs. It looks like templates and frameworks. Everything. What you just described what, in detail? Because I don't know, Matt and I were nerding out on that and this isn't a sales pitch for it, but we were like, holy crap. If we can go back in time and kind of architect and even maybe if there's something we can optimize with what we're already doing, we would follow that. And it looks like it's the most comprehensive way to kind of do it all, like this whole process and actually go to the selling of a site too. So I don't know if there's any other way you would set that up or maybe tell people or say who it's best for. Is it like a beginner? Is it someone that's trying to add another passive income stream?

Sure. So the affiliate lab came to fruition because when we were trying to build a model of running 100 websites and you have to hire 25 different project managers, we were hiring fast and hiring fast. And so we needed kind of system to train people up that we didn't. Didn't have to be hands on. So me and Jay, my business partner, we started just filming like these really, really good modules that take. Take you from nothing to all the way to the end of the whole entire process. Then at some point, I guess we just like, okay, people talk about info products and they make money and it's a good way to help people out. Like, yeah, I get all that stuff. So we decided to make a course. God, it's so much work. Have you guys ever made a course?

Yes.

And we no longer sell courses because of how much work and upkeep they were.

I saw on your sales page your thing gets updated all the time, which was why we stopped selling courses.

So we ended up jumping in and making this course. And so from the beginning, we Pledged. Because SEO changes all the time, like every single month. Like this eat thing I told you about, that's only a year old. Like the backlinks you needed to build this year are completely different than last year. So we made a pledge that it would be an evergreen course. Anytime something new happens, then we'll update the course. Turns out that something new doesn't happen every single month. So we decided let's just keep adding on different modules completely. Let's teach them email marketing, let's teach them how to scale a team. Let's teach them how to buy websites, let's teach the beginners how to install WordPress. So it's just gigantic. Now it's like 30 hours. So to answer your question, who's it for? Like if you have no experience, you can start with beginner's lab and then work your way up to the high level stuff if you have a lot of experience. This is where we get into like my SEO testing stuff, engineering backgrounds. We tried to test and see if new techniques will start working and work for us. And then we disseminate that to the affiliate lab.

Very cool. Well, I do have like a couple like little rabbit holes that I think might be interesting to go down just based on some of the bullets that are on your sales pa. One of the things that you mentioned on your sales page is how to make an about page be more effective. Maybe you can talk about that for a second. What are people doing wrong with their about pages?

Right? Well, this goes back to that whole eat thing, right? Google's not going to give expertise, authoritativeness and trust to a website that they have no idea who owns it, no idea who's behind it. That's the opposite of eat when there's nothing accountable to it. So with your about pages, let's go above and beyond and show that there's a real business behind here. So let's put your writers on the pages. Like they become your editors and your editors in chief and all that kind of stuff, but yourself. Or you can put a Persona as the owner of the company. You can have different departments. So here's an email address for general inquiries. Here's for feedback, here's for returns, here's for or media inquiries. So this is like how normal businesses look. You have different departments here, right? Then we can have like for each of our authors or for each of our contributors, we link out to their business profiles, their LinkedIn, their Instagram, whatever that might be. Kind of ties this all together. And then even so we talked about Having a name, address, phone number. So let's embed the Google map there. Let's embed the phone number, let's embed this address. Like if you think about this, like affiliate websites, they tried to make sure you don't contact them because they don't care about contacting a real business. They'll do anything they can to get you to contact them. So they'll list out 45 different ways to do it.

So true.

So that's part of the difference here. And then this is getting a little bit geeky. But one thing you can do in the background the code is use Google or use schema markup. Schema markup is just kind of some code that tells Google it's just like a little bit of assistance. It tells Google exactly what your webpage is about. At least allows you to do stuff like add a same as property same as. What that does is says this website is the same as this Facebook page, this YouTube channel, this Instagram, this Pinterest. So it kind of ties everything together and says I'm not just this website, I'm all this stuff. Don't consider me a little rinky dink website anymore.

That totally makes sense.

I love that. Basically look like a real quote unquote real brick and mortar website or company online. And Google will favor you. Yeah, makes sense.

Do you do anything else with the specific with different types of schema? Like with Google there's now if somebody asks a direct question to Google, you don't even need to click into the links anymore. Right. Google will just show the answer for you based on the schema that already exists. Do you play around with any of that stuff as well?

Yeah, like featured snippet optimization. It's a necessary evil. Right. A lot of the time when Google can get the answer right there, they're not going to click on your website, they're not going to buy anything. But if you don't take that featured snippet, someone else will. So you got to optimize for it. And yeah, we do a lot of that and that's covered in the affiliate lab as well.

Nice.

Very cool.

Just kind of curious, if you get selected as the featured snippet, would that affect your rankings from what you found or is it just like an extra incentive?

So the way it works right now is if let's say you're ranked number five and if you stole that featured snippet slot, you're going to get the featured snippet and then you're going to get deleted from the rest of this. So you kind of just got warped to the top position. And I mean, is it better than being number one position with no snippet? No, because people have to click on that number one to see the answer. But it's still better than B number five. So that's why you optimize for it.

Gotcha. Interesting.

Well, my last question would be to maybe talk about your tool stack a little bit. I know you mentioned ahrefs. That's what we use for our SEO as well. What other tools are you digging into that you use a lot in your business?

Right. So I'd say ahrefs is the number one. Number two would probably be Surfer SEO. Surfer SEO is basically an on site optimization tool and allows your writers to not know anything about SEO and then churn out a piece of content that's perfectly optimized for it. So that's definitely necessary for us. On top of that, we use tools like Screaming Frog for technical SEO. We use Hunter IO for outreach and email finding. Then a lot of, like, just knickknack tools like rank trackers, and we use Clicky Analytics, Google Search Console. Like, there's a lot of other stuff like supporting cast, but I would say the big ones is AHREFS and Surfer SEO. That's what we use on a daily basis.

Gotcha. Do you have any, like, any specific, like, WordPress themes or anything like that that you always work with? Are you kind of always just playing with different ones?

We're either building an elementor, but these days we got a nice dev team, so we're making custom templates that load faster exactly how we want them to look.

Gotcha. Very cool.

I like it.

Did you have anything else?

No, I think that's. I love the deep technical talk like that. I mean, Surfer SEO has been coming up a lot like Ahrefs, but like, yeah, Surfer SEO, the way you described it, I think that's super fascinating. If you're hiring content writers, it's like, boom, here's your hit list, here's your topic. I guess go make magic happen.

And.

And that's it.

Yeah, it's a game changer.

That's pretty cool. Awesome, man. Well, I think Affiliate Lab would probably be the most. So that's your training. It seems like the most relevant extension. If someone's excited about this.

Yeah, we have a link. Hustleandflowchart.com affiliate lab.

Sweet. Anywhere else? Matt, you want to go have folks check out? I know you have a blog as well. I forget the URL but you kind of update on the latest SEO stuff. There's.

Yeah. Check out diggitymarketing.com that's like my hub between most of my businesses. And you'll see me blogging about these tested SEO techniques, like, when I have new results from the lab, so to speak. That's where it gets published.

Rad. Cool, man. Well, thanks for the time. And I think it's fascinating. We'll have to dig a little deeper into the product itself and see how we can improve what we're doing too.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Have a good one, man.

Cool, man. It's been fun.

It's been a pleasure.

Yo, yo, yo.

We're back.

Feel like we've just optimized our affiliate marketing brains to the next level.

Yeah. Well, I will say this much about that episode. It was action packed, right? Like, it was no fluff.

None.

There was no fluff in that episode. That was like, here's my question about your affiliate process. Here's the answer. Here's my question. Here's the answer. And he went deep on it, and there was no fluff. He just like, Right to the point.

I know it actually. There's. There's. I'm like, matt, what do you got? I got nothing.

Because I know, like, we have just.

Completely blanked out my notes. I think for the first time ever of.

We literally have two pages of notes, like a one piece of paper, front and back of notes of stuff that we wanted to discuss. And we literally discussed all of it within the first 30 minutes of the episode.

And then. And then we just started getting curious about the business model and all that stuff. And I think that was. Yeah. I mean, you probably heard me stumbling a few times because I was like, okay, hold on. Okay. My brain is kind of wiring how this is all connected and how he's doing this compared to what we're doing too. Because that's the interesting thing, I think, with affiliate marketing is it's not really a known exactly. Like, what does your business look like?

Yeah. And every affiliate marketer we've ever talked to, it's probably structured slightly different too.

And I didn't actually conceptualize that. No words until just right now. But like, affiliate marketing, like, he has his own model, we have our own model. There's so many other models out there. That's kind of. That it's so interesting. And it isn't until you actually talk to someone who's doing it, you actually understand what's under the hood. Like, oh, so that thing is connected. To that thing, and it does that. It spins that thing. Yeah, but that spinny thing powers that thing, and that's exactly what we're doing. He's doing.

Yeah.

I think that's like, the elevated thing. But, like, obviously, there's so much more to learn. It's so cool.

Well, I like that we got him to basically map out a process. Like, here's. Just follow along to this process. And I know he's got his course. What's it called? It's called Authority Builders.

Authority Lab.

Authority Lab. So he's got Authority Lab, and he actually, after. After we stopped the recording, he's like, I probably should have mentioned this on the recording, but if you go to that hustleandflowchart.com affiliate lab, it's actually a $200 off link.

Yeah, he's like, I think that will be a little easier for folks to join. So, yeah, you get 200 bucks off that course if you go to hustleflowchart.com affiliate lab. And we are. We will be buying it. Buying that. I mean.

Well, he gives you the checklist.

Hesitant to say, no, this is too good. Like, it. Yes, go ahead.

Well, Matt's probably listening back to this episode now, going, they haven't bought it yet. What the hell? No, I'm just kidding.

We just finished recording.

I know, I know. Well, he wouldn't be listening back to this episode for six weeks still, but.

Oh, time warp.

Time warp, yes. We recorded this in the past.

That's right.

Are we screwing with our own brains right now?

What were you gonna say about the course, though? Are you gonna say something?

Yeah. So in this course, he literally gives you templates, and he gives you checklists, and he gives you examples and case studies. It's kind of like the. Like, this is why we want to go buy it. We want to get in there and just be. And grab his checklist and templates and go, okay, let's see. Let's test some of this plug and play stuff that he's got built in there.

It's like a user manual. And if you check out his about page, too, I think it's a Diggity Marketing. Com. Love his name, the last name. It's diggitymarketing.com. go to his About Us page. And I referenced that, and he talked about the power of About Us. Read his. It's like. It's very interesting, but you see how he starts to connect things as well, like as an engineer and then how he's engineered how to scale these things up. And essentially it seems like that course is teaching you exactly their process, like you said. And you'll see that he's scaled with teams. So that just shows you really don't need to be an expert to do this. But if you've been curious about affiliate marketing and you have some ideas around content or niche selection, you've heard a lot about SEO stuff, well, here's a pretty good option for you. Yeah, yeah, no, that's all that.

I found it really interesting. I think this was actually sort of a discussion that you and I were having at lunch earlier, before we were. Before we actually recorded this episode. But we were talking about how. How to do affiliate marketing at scale by, like, growing teams.

Right.

And he seems to have sort of cracked that nut a little bit.

Yeah. Right.

With us, you know, we've. We've got a great team. We've got Jacob, who. Hey, Jacob, I know you're listening to this and editing this right now. We've got a great team with Jacob editing these episodes and running our YouTube channel for us. And we've got sue, who takes all the notes on these episodes and writes our show notes for the website and also does some help and support. And we've got Charlie helping run ads, and we've got some guys helping us with email. We've got, like a decent team there. But one of the areas we haven't started to build a team around is the scaling of the affiliate promotion specifically. And I almost feel like that's going to be the next evolution in our business. Just kind of like.

Yeah, the writing of the content. We're starting to hire media buyers and work with people that can drive traffic. But the writing of the content, the managing of the SEO, the following, the sort of templates and frameworks and backlink outreach, all of that kind of stuff, we've never really outsourced. That's just stuff that we've put on our own plates and it's gotten us to where we are now. But I feel like us being all of those roles is the thing that's stopping us from scaling the affiliate piece of our business beyond where we're at now.

I think you're right. Yeah. And it's. Yeah, it's interesting to think what we've been able to do with our system, and it's really just us gluing stuff together after we test things like, oh, that kind of works. Cool. Yeah.

Everything sounds really, really, really smart when we tell you it's a process. But while we're doing it, we're figuring it out as we go along. It's only after the fact that we look back at what we did and go, ooh, there's a process there.

Well, yeah, that can make sense to someone if I explained it. So cool. I'm going to make a flowchart out about it and. Yeah. Make myself look smart. No, but. But in all reality. Yeah, it's just a bunch of stuff glued together. And then we have people. Yeah. Like Joe Kearns of the world and George saying, like, hey, you know, you have this email thing. You can actually do this really cool customer journey automation segmentation thing and build it so you can sell more affiliate products.

Yeah.

Like, oh, okay, let's do that now. So, I mean, this just seems like another iteration in the business that is. It's one of those scalable things. Like, why not?

Well, I love SEO too. SEO was like one of my first loves.

Right.

I ran the WordPress classroom and learned a blog, and our first businesses were literally SEO businesses. I will teach you to be rich and be healthy and relaxed. And the first blogs we built, it was all like, SEO is our roots.

Really fallen far from the tree. And I'm happy that you just said the roots.

Yeah. And already had the announcement. Yeah, SEO was literally our roots. And I still love SEO. I kind of fell off the SEO train for a little bit because I almost felt like it was too fast moving for me to keep up with, like, what I should be doing.

Said it used to be like, yeah, 30 day or 30 thing or whatever it was. Now it's like fricking 700 plus. It's super crazy.

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, these episodes we've done recently, like with Matt and like with the guys from Topic and with with Gert the other day, a lot of these episodes are really sort of getting me reinvigorated on, like, I want to play around with SEO a lot more than we are. And SEO to this day is still our number one traffic source, bigger than any of our media buys, bigger than in Facebook ads, Google Ads, any of the stuff we' SEO still drives more traffic right now.

Kind of nice. Yeah, yeah. And, and yeah, no, you're right. I think that is a pretty good focus of where we can. We can really scale what's already working. I think that's what's beautiful about it. And then obviously you can build to scale and sell if you want to. Following his process. But yeah, man, I mean, Surf for SEO is just one of those tools that have come up a lot.

I haven't even looked into it yet now, but I know it's been mentioned.

A few times, just in the last, like, couple months, I feel like. Yeah, but the way he described it, I felt like, you know, Matt described it was very clear. Like, the clearest that my brain understood at least, is like, it just puts out a report, basically, for your writers to follow.

Well, yeah, that makes. That makes the task of hiring a writer feel so much less daunting.

If you can write or just write.

If you figure out the keyword that you want to promote a product, figure out the keyword you want to go after. And then go find a writer and say, here's the keyword we're going after. Get into surfer SEO and figure out what content to write around it.

Yeah, that's it. I mean, that's it. Yeah.

And then let them write the content.

Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, that's a big takeaway right There is. I love that idea because I know you and I have seen each other as the content guys in this thing, and we are currently.

Well, we'll always be the podcast voices.

Yeah, I guess more the brand voice or something like that. Yeah. But the writers, I mean, like, part of the team, and it's all part of us.

At the end of the day, when we put content on a site like Evergreen Profits, the readers don't know that I wrote it versus me hiring somebody to write it.

But are you who I think you are?

Yeah, I've written most of the content. I think there are actually a couple articles on our website that rank really, really well and drive sales for us that somebody else wrote. But I'm not going to tell you which articles they are because nobody actually knows which ones they are. And I want to keep it that way.

Do more of that.

I want people to think I wrote those.

You're so smart, Matt, with that ego stroked, huh? Is that what you're looking for?

Yes.

Get it out of here.

Yeah, some of our. Actually, the ones that drive the most money were written by me. I'm just going to put that out there.

Inflated. We don't need that here. All right, that's not wanted. All right, so big takeaway, surfer SEO. Yeah. Us doubling down on content is big. I mean, his whole thing of, like having a project manager, he calls them SEOs. That's funny. But yeah, they come or not come with, but he architects a team under them. And instead of going horizontally with his scaling of efforts. So he's not creating a bunch of websites anymore in different niches. Like, sounds like he used to, but now he's going vertical and really doubling down also. That's what kind of a big deal. The 40 to 45 times.

Oh, dude. Exiting.

That was.

That was mind blowing to me. He was saying that and I'm like, I can get a website up to 500amonth if you give me a week.

Like, well, there lies an opportunity, my friend. So, I mean, I guess maybe that's even another reason why we should buy that.

Yeah, no, I mean, we will. Like, I want to just learn, like, the flipping strategies because he said, like, the minimum threshold to be able to sell it on these sites is it has to generate $500 a month. And in my head, $500 a month from a website sounds like that literally.

Could be one product doing.

Although he did say, you don't want the.

What did he call it? He said not one.

House of cards.

Yeah, he didn't. Yeah, house of cards. He basically was like, it wasn't a one product issue. It was more of a one page. You don't want that with all the traffic. One traffic source sounds like. So not in a month, like you're saying, but you want to.

I actually have a site in mind that's already running and generating money right now that we could probably sell.

Yeah, I'm sure we do. And we should do that because why not? Case study, baby. Beer money.

Yeah. Well, if we do go down that.

Road, we're about to get locked down in our house. Let's go buy some booze. Yeah, with some. With some site money.

If we do that, we will follow up. We will share the experience.

Can we make a drunk episode?

We've done it before, but this one's.

A deliberately drunk on Internet money. Funds that we've been sitting on a website for probably. Is it the one about 15 years old?

Well, there's that one too, but that's not the one I'm thinking of. More beer money? No, that one. That one Maybe meets the $500 a month threshold. I don't know if it's generating that much these days.

We can ramp it up.

I'm more thinking of a website that we're running that's generating in the 15k a month range. Ah, yeah. You know which one I'm talking about now?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes, I do. And we should chat after we hit. Let's hit that stop button really quick.

Alrighty.

So we gotta go make some money, y'.

All.

Actually, I was supposed to go home. It's really dark.

You're also supposed to Mention our damn sponsors.

Oh, shoot. Got excited, Matt. All right, so no, couple things here. Get the notes. I don't know why we keep forgetting the notes when we're recording these things, but you should not forget the notes because we did them for you. So if you go to flowchartgroup.com you'll get the action guide for this episode and which there's probably a lot of action that's going to be listed in there. A lot of processes that Mr. Diggity gave us. And then also you're going to get some other notes once you sign up there at flowchart. Group.com gets you in the Facebook group as well. Just make sure to plug your email in to get those. And Easy Webinar is our sponsor that you mentioned.

Yes.

And they do webinars.

They do. They do automated, they do live, they do hybrid. And Casey actually just sent us a demo video.

Was it today?

No. Maybe yesterday. Yeah, he sent us a demo video yesterday of, like, the roadmap of where they're going. And it's like getting so much better and easier to use. Easier webinar, the easier.

Just keep adding ours. Yeah, but don't spell it that way when you want to go claim your discount because he's hooking you up. So it's based on monthly or annual subscription. You're. You're saving a quite a bit of coin. So if you go to easy webinar.com.

That is slash, hustle, hustle. Easywebinar.com hustle. Go get it. Everything. Webinars. If you're doing webinars, if you're thinking about doing webinars, that is your tool. Yes.

Go grab that because it is awesome and it will do anything you need to do with webinars. And he's giving you a sweet discount because you're a listener.

Yes.

We're hooking you up. He's hooking you up.

So did Matt Diggity. Go buy this course.

200 bucks off. We're literally jumping off this to go buy the damn course.

You're hanging out still on this podcast episode for one. Thank you very much. We love you. Go share this around with some folks that you also love. But if you're really thinking about it, go get this thing.

Yeah.

Stolenfluidchart.com affiliate lab. And you will get two hundy off 200.

Yeah, I mean, I make a lot more than that.

I'm sure of it.

The price tag on that one, I'm pretty sure you're gonna get an roi pretty damn quick. You do?

Especially when the freaking multiples are 40 times.

Yeah.

And we don't ever promote courses either. So this isn't us. Like, we're just fanboying over this strategy right now. We literally don't promote courses anymore. But this is one where we're like, all right, we're gonna go buy this thing ourselves.

This is it.

All right.

Thank you all.

Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice, simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com, find this episode that you just listened to, and give us your email address, and we'll send you the notes.

Thanks for listening.

Go get it, Wiki Wiki.