Michael Trainer - The Lessons Learned In A Pandemic

You know, one of the things I've been thinking about a lot and we talked a little bit about before we jumped on recording, is I've just been thinking about, you know, with Peak Mind, which is my company, a lot of it is around optimizing the internal space so that you can create the optimal life outside. You know, it's the corollary between our inner world and the outer world. And so I just thought to myself, you know, I think there's a conversation that gets to be had that I haven't heard amidst all the noise that is happening, which is really around. What is the mental game in this brave new world? Right? Like, how do we create a sense of resilience and renewal and. And do so coming out of. Of totally unknown circumstances? Circumstances that many of us, at least in this generation, have not faced? Right?

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Flowchart with your boy, my boy, Matt Wolf, Joe Fear.

Hey, we are back again with more awesome stuff for your ears in your brain. Stimulate your brain.

My name's Matt Wolf. I'm here with Joe Fear. Yeah, I think we stopped doing that a long time ago.

I think we had an intro already.

Yeah, yeah, but we used to do that, remember? We used to, like, at the very intro of the episode, we would, like, re. Intro ourselves. Like, I'm Matt Wolf and this is Joe Fear.

Yeah, I'm over it. They'll figure it out. Okay, I'm Joe Fear. All right, now the niceties are out of the way. Let's cut into the real talk.

This is real talk, I would say, today, this episode, with Mr. Michael Trainor. He's a buddy of ours. He's been on the show two years and couple months or a few months or so. Yeah. So, I mean, his backstory, all that stuff, we get into it a lot more in that episode, I do believe. Actually don't remember, but I'm sure we did.

But, yeah, this one, I mean. I mean, we're. We're still in the midst of the COVID stuff at the time of recording. So, you know, we're. We're. It really goes deeper into, I would say, the mental side of what's happening right now and kind of the. The big perspective changes and the ways of being in. Ways to kind of set yourself up right. Mentally more than. It's not like, hey, this is like one singular thing. It's like, this is like the core stuff right now.

Well, so we talk a lot about that, but. So a little bit of a background on Michael Traynor. So he. He co founded a company called Global Citizen, which puts on these giant events in Central park in New York. And he has, like, Jay Z and Beyonce and Coldplay. Coldplay, Some of the biggest, like, artists in the world come out and participate in these events, which I believe are typically for charity. Right. It's a nonprofit organization that he created. And he. He also has a podcast called Peak Mind. And on this podcast, I know he's had, like, Laird Hamilton and he's had Terry Crews and he's had Moby and he's had some like, really, really, really big name guests. Really big name doctors. Really big name, like just some amazing big names. So the first time we brought him on the show, we wanted to sort of pick his brain a little bit about how did he manage to get connected with all of these people. Right now he's actually writing a book about how he managed to get connected with all of these people. So when this episode first starts, when we jump, going to dive into that a little bit, and he's going to talk about some of the big lessons that are going to come out in his book about how to sort of network and connect with anybody. And that's a really fascinating topic in its own. And then it sort of shifts into this discussion about the world and mindset and, you know, how we should be approaching thinking about all the COVID stuff that's going on. And it gets into a really sort of deep philosophical conversation. Beyond that.

Yeah, no, it's a lot of just the mental state that we're all in right now. We're collectively in this weird, interesting times that times are changing fast. It's rapidly changing, and not a lot of folks, you know, we're not equipped to this. Like, no one's been through this kind of thing. So the cool thing with Michael is like, on his podcast, Peak Mind, he.

Crazy Rolodex. I mean, like, he literally, I think his first episode was with the Dalai Lama. I mean. Yeah, wow.

Yeah, wow. That's all I want to say. So, like, that's the caliber of brain, like mind share that he's bringing together and just think about what. And he's distilling the best of the best.

So.

And you got to think, like, as a podcaster, which is so cool, is that we're sponges. Like, we are the ones, the hosts are the ones that are initially, I mean, really probably the most attentive to the conversation because we have to be in it. Like, we are in it. We're choosing to be in it in a. It's what we choose and then we respond. It's not a one way thing. It's a dialogue. So the fact that Michael's been on the show now twice, but this one specifically, it's just really interesting to open up the sponge or squeeze the sponge a little bit. I don't know, I'm just trying to play with the analogy. But you know, like, you gotta think of like the collective thoughts and like wisdom that he has brought into himself and distilled. And that's what we get into in this episode is like, okay, so you've talked with the brightest minds from so many different perspectives. Give us the rocks, give us the principles that everyone should really live by.

The way he thinks is a product of all of these great minds that.

He'S managed to be connected with. Yeah, Peace.

Amazing, amazing conversation. You're gonna enjoy it. We enjoyed it. We did take notes on it. We take notes on all of our episodes and we'd love it if you would go and grab those notes. They are free. Free for a couple weeks.

Yeah, yeah. So hustleandflowchart.com comp hustleandflowchart.com Comp so get them quick. They go away within two weeks of this episode dropping and then they get locked up in our membership vault thingy. But yeah, go to hustleandfluidchart.com comp and you're going to get. There's a lot of philosophical talk. But what's really cool is there's so many references and resources and things and principles that Michael's talked about. So it's almost like it could distill a philosophical talk into a very actionable guide. And actually we told him about our process after the fact. He was like, oh, wow. So yeah, and he actually said he wants a copy one. He's like, this is good stuff, definitely. So go get them.

Hustleandfluechart.com comp or text the number 38470 and send us the word comp in your text message and we'll get into you that way as well.

And as a double cta, another CTA is coming after this, but the Flowchart group dot com. It's free. This is where you want to go chat with us.

Too many CTAs.

Nah, it's fine. Keep track of them. Hustle flow. I mean, flowchart group.com. just join the group. It's Facebook group, totally free. You can interact with us, the guests, and then also everyone else listening on the show.

So Actually, if we're talking about that, I might as well mention. So in this episode we do talk about breathing a little bit. He mentioned like WIM HOF breathing techniques. As of this recording. One of the recent trainings we put inside of the Hustle and Flowchart group is an exercise that follows the Wim Hof breathing method. So that's freely available inside of the Hustle and Flowchart group right now.

There's a lot of cool stuff in there. Profrezil flowchartgroup.com and our last CTA. Not too many CTAs, but a lot of them. We're breaking all the rules. I know is AHREFS is they are sponsor. We have used them for many a years and we've talked about them quite a bit. And I'm just gonna say this is a great tool for anyone that. I mean the elite of traffic and SEO and paid and all that stuff, you can definitely benefit. You probably heard of it. If you haven't actually taken the leap. It's not much of a leap. It's $7 for seven days to try AHREFS out. So if you're one of those elite traffic people, stop waiting because you're hurting your business.

I don't know if we've ever had a traffic person come on our podcast and not mention ahrefs. That's how prolific is among the people who know what they're doing when it comes to driving traffic.

Yeah. And then on the, and I'm gonna say this with all the love, the dum dum side. So that's my side, definitely Joe's side.

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All right.

A H R e f s.com let's go talk to Michael Traynor.

All right, Michael, how you doing, my man?

I'm great. Good to see you gentlemen again.

Yeah, it's what, round two on the Hustle flutechar podcast. So it's been, what, a couple years, I think.

Yeah, it's been a couple years since our last conversation, which was epic. I remember very well our conversation as well as where I was when we had it. So lots of things have changed in all of our worlds since then. So, yeah, it's great to be back on with you guys.

It is.

January 31, 2018 was the last one.

Oh, there you go.

Look at you.

Two years.

Over two years. Dang.

That's crazy, man. So, yeah, since then, I mean, well, now you have a podcast, I think you were talking about it at the time, called PeakMind.

Yep, I launched it. I launched it. It's been about, not quite a year and a half, but, yeah, I had been recording previously for several years. I wasn't quite ready to commit to, as you guys well know, Journey, which I now love, but the journey of consistently putting out, you know, couple episodes a week and wanting that to be obviously high quality, high quality guests. But, you know, I, I had this, you know, experience where I literally, I went to a Fleetwood Mac show and they did a tribute to Tom Petty and I'd always wanted to go see Tom Petty. And I realized, you know what, some things you, you only get one shot at and if you miss them, they don't come back. And I realized I, I still had my song in me. And, and part of that was the podcast and so that I was going to put it out in the world. And it's been a great gift to me and it's been amazing to see, as you guys well know, the community that, that comes around you as a result of the trust that I think is built through a long term audio, long form audio experience and, you know, being able to just be really vulnerable and share, you know, the greatest insights from the greatest people in your network. And it's been a true gift to my life and it's exponentially increased the quality, my relationship with my community. So it's been a, it's been. Peakmind has been. It's been one of the greatest things I've done since we last spoke.

Yeah, no, I know I've seen. I get the emails. I think it's weekly. You know, it's a weekly episode. You drop out there and it's. I mean, the. The people that you bring in. I know Moby has been on there. Your network is amazing. And, you know, it has been for a very long time because you've been doing big things, you know, global citizen. You co founded that. And I know that's a big event that. Well, I know typically it's in person in Central park doing big concerts, people like Jay Z, Beyonce, and all that stuff, but I just like the fact that you're now packaging up all these thought leaders together, and they might not be the leaders that, you know, like, someone that you might not have met, or maybe it is someone, and you're bringing them and kind of just essentially figuring out their minds, you know, see how they operate and then sharing that with the world. I think that is the best part of podcasting, and I'm happy you're doing it specifically with the Rolodex that you have.

Thank you. You know, yeah, it's been. It's been an honor for me, too. I mean, as you guys know, because you've been in the game longer than I have. It's. It's. It's a wild process, right? Because on the one hand, at least for me, there's no better feeling than right now, right, where you're, like, connecting with someone. We're living in an era where getting an hour of someone's undivided attention is such a commodity, right? Like, someone not checking their phone, not being distracted by email, not being distract by other things. And to be able to do that, I mean, sometimes I pinch myself because I'm like, all right, well, you know, like, the other day, it's like, I remember. So one of my favorite books is the Obstacle is the Way. And, you know, earlier this year, Ryan Holiday literally, like, drove across town to come to my living room to record an episode on his new book. And he then hit, like, you know, I'm not saying it was because of my podcast, but he had New York Times bestseller number one or whatever that week. And I was like, what? What world am I living in? Where, like, my hero, like, someone who, like, I respect so much, is not only am I, like, I would, like, pay to go see them, like, in a talk, like, with fifth, you know, 5,000 people, but let alone, like, they're actually investing their time and energy to come talk to me in my living room like this. I can't believe I Didn't figure this out earlier. Like, this is.

This is.

This is amazing.

It really is. It's like podcasting is a secret back door.

Exactly. Yeah. A friend of mine wrote a book, Alex Benayan. I don't know if you guys familiar with him. Yeah, he wrote Third Door, and it's exactly that concept. Right. Like, there's the first door, the second door, and the third door is like, the whole, like, the door no one even thinks about. Right. But gives you access to that. Those. Those kind of, like, unknown rooms. And so actually, that's the book I'm also working on now. Not a third door. But that's the question I get asked the most, including on the last show, which is like, how do you get access to some of these extraordinary people? And I hadn't really thought about it that much, and then I got asked the question enough that I was like, you know what? Let me extrapolate this in a way that hopefully people could utilize that to get into their own coveted room for whomever they. It is they want to speak with. You know, like, who are. Who are your heroes? And, like, how could you find a way to connect with them in an authentic way? You know, because I think that, to me, relationships are the great gold of this life. You know, I think, you know, oftentimes what's exalted on social media is the Lamborghini. And don't get me wrong, you know, if someone wanted to offer me a ride in their Lamborghini, I would take it.

But I would take it probably more because I wanted to connect with the person driving the car and learn from them more so than I, you know, I highly covet having, you know, the Lamborghini in my driveway. And that's just my personal preference. That's not to say it's wrong for anyone to covet whatever they covet in that regard, but for me, it's like the relationships are the true gold. And I think podcasting is one of the great platforms and one of the great ways in which you can actually approach relationship building in this day and age.

Yeah. Since you started the process of ideating and writing this book, have you come to some conclusions on. These are some key elements that I've realized now that have helped me create this network, because last time we talked, we did talk about how you built the network stuff, but, you know, that was a couple years ago, and you're in the process of writing a book about it, so I'm sure you've had a lot more time to actually, like, think about like these are the things that I'm realizing.

Yeah, definitely. I mean it's a great question. So some of which I actually detailed, not to be self serving, but I detailed in great detail on my podcast or sort of like the five techniques you can utilize. And it really underlies a lot of the theory in greater detail and some of which obviously I'm going to keep on the download until the book launches. Love to share it, then maybe, maybe get reinvited back in a year or so when that launches. But yeah, I mean in the benefit of your audience right now, I mean, so one of the things I actually do talk about is platform and basically being, if you will, like what I call a signal in the noise. Right. So there's oftentimes noise, I think in all of our lives. Right. Email, for example. All of us get deluged by email and the emotional state we're in when we open an email generally is, I would call it neutral to negative. Occasionally you get a great email, but largely you're kind of like it's not. Yeah, you're not like elated to be in there. So one of the things I talk about is like, hey, not going where people aren't, you know, and finding ways to connect with them in a way that generates emotional resonance outside of the noise, you know, So a very simple tactical thing is like I love going old school, you know, I have a gratitude practice in the morning and I love to write a thank you note, you know, like, you know, right now most people, when they open the physical mail, it's mostly bills. But like when people get an actual note, even of a simple thing like a thank you note, it makes such an impression and you're, it's so not crowded compared to an email, you know, or send them an LCD note or something where it's like they've never experienced that before, you know, or even like a voice note with the phone or of a visual call, like a birthday message using video as opposed to a text message. So just thinking about things where it's like, okay, how can I kind of stand out and be signal in the noise? And I think that principle obviously extrapolate in a variety of different ways. But I think if you have a really resonance podcast as well, what's interesting is that signal then attracts people to you. Right. So very clear case in example is I remember about a year ago I was listening to a podcast with Melissa Ambrosini, an Australian podcaster, where she had a doctor on, Dr. Stephen Cabral. This was very Specific, but they were talking about alcohol and how alcohol affects certain genetic profiles differently. And lo and behold, and, you know.

No hard rules were set, but I decided to take six months off drinking. So I haven't had a drink in over six months now. And I feel amazing. In part, I got that knowledge from that podcast. I'm not saying I'll never drink again. I didn't have a problem with drinking, but I just was like, you know what? I think the cost benefit analysis, I want to create some big things, and that's costing me more than it's serving me. And interestingly enough, come full circle because of the podcast. I literally just got someone, as happens often, you know, people knock on your door to be on the podcast, but some agency was like, hey, would you like to have Dr. Cabral on your podcast? And I was like. I was like, well, yes, I would.

Right.

So that's interesting, right? Because prior to having a podcast, I would probably have to find the gatekeeper to reach out to him to get into his ear. And then it's like, what I always say is, don't ask to pick people's brain. Like, don't be that. When you're asking for things, obviously you want to be a give, and that's the beauty of the podcast. Right? Like, I'm a give to him. Right. So what better way to start a relationship with someone where they reached out to me, I can be of service to them. And then that's the tenet upon which we're beginning our relationship, as opposed to traditional, quote, unquote networking, where it's like, let me reach out to you with the perception of extracting value by asking for some of your time in some obtuse, obscure way that you don't actually know what I want and probably won't feel the better from having that conversation. Or maybe you will, but it's definitely gonna evoke questions in your mind of like, who is this guy? Is it worth my time? And why would I connect with you? Especially if you're a busy person, which most people are in this day and age. So, anyway, I'll pause there, but that's kind of sort of some of the tactical ways I look at relationships and really being a giver and trying to find ways to create a signal amidst noise. And I think we're living in an extraordinarily noisy time. Oh, man.

Yeah. And it's even getting noisier now in this lockdown that a lot of us are still in at the time of this recording.

Yes.

And, yeah, the noise is getting louder and louder and louder. But I think the connection a lot of times is not going to deeper. You know, there's a lot of noise there. And I know that's something that you've been thinking a lot of as well, with almost like the mental state of what people are seeing every day. Obviously there's the news. I heard some stat that like 85% of the folks are glued to some kind of big TV news channel, whatever that might be. But that's a lot of marketing. There's not a lot of news. News like, you know, like rock bottom. This is actually the facts kind of stuff. So maybe speaking of that, some perspectives that you've had over the last just few months even.

Yeah. So as we're recording this, you know, we're amidst this COVID pandemic. So all of us are in this kind of collective.

Trauma, some for whom this is actually acutely traumatic. You know, I was just on a call with an agency where they were talking about a young girl in Nepal who's literally like, can't leave her home. There's theft, there's abuse. I mean, people are really, you know, there's higher incidents right now of domestic abuse. Alcohol consumption is up profoundly. I think across the board, people are struggling. You know, I think, you know, sense of purpose. Right. In the US where we're recording, currently, you know, there's over 30 million new cases of unemployment. And when you. Your livelihood and your sense of purpose is attached to your work, obviously that evokes more than just the questions of, you know, logistical questions, but it evokes really deep existential questions. And in the sort of maslow hierarchy of needs, you know, you move from this sort of, if you're in a good way, the tip of the pyramid around, you know, what's the purpose of my life? Back into like the base of the pyramid, which is really around how do I actually survive? And if you have kids, which many of your listeners do, you know, from what I've heard from my friends who are parents, you know, it brings a whole nother level of stress. You're thinking about, how do I provide for my kids? Plus, you're trying to homeschool them at home whilst trying to navigate all these different stressors. And so, you know, one of the things I've been thinking about a lot and we talked a little bit about before we jumped on recording is I've just been thinking about, you know, with Peak Mind, which is my company, a lot of it is around optimizing the internal space so that you can create the optimal life outside. You know, it' sit's the corollary between our inner world and the outer world. And so I just thought to myself, you know, I think there's a conversation that gets to be had that I haven't heard amidst all the noise that is happening, which is really around. What is the mental game in this brave new world, right? Like, how do we create a sense of resilience and renewal.

And do so coming out of totally unknown circumstances, circumstances that many of us, at least in this generation, have not faced, Right? And, you know, I think there's lessons that can be taken from other large scale, you know, pandemics and, you know, people coming out of wars. And not to say that this is the same sort of scale or acute trauma, but, you know, there are ways in which, you know, the statistic you just heard, more people have died now in the US from COVID than during the Vietnam War. So there are a lot of people, you know, families who are witnessing loved ones and not being able to be with them in their final moments of life. And I just unfortunately shepherded the man I love most on the planet. I was grateful that I was able to do so at home with him. My father, who you guys know very well, has been a huge impetus for me and how I live. And he just recently departed this life about a month ago. But I was fortunate that I was able to be with him. But I mean, I wouldn't have flown otherwise, but flying on a plane with a mask and goggles and gloves, worrying about my elders, I was fortunate in that I had taken care of myself. I had been in quarantine, but my heart goes out to those who are dealing with similar circumstances, but they can't even touch or hold the hand of their dear loved one. And so I think there's a lot of ramifications to this current kind of collective state we're living in that we haven't even scratched the surface of. So for me, I don't purport to have the answers. I just feel that I've been fortunate to connect with a lot of folks that I think do have.

Compasses, if you will, that are helpful in navigating uncertain waters. You know, from like the Wim Hofs and the Power of Breathwork, you know, to the Laird Hamiltons who confronted fear in big wave surfing, to the doctors, you know, like the Dr. Mark Hyman's and Dr. G's who are really great. And then the performers and the spiritual teachers, like the Dalai Lama and folks like that that I feel like if I. One of the things I want to do is to be able to point people to the right resources, those compasses, so to speak, where they can navigate through these uncertain waters in a good way. So, as I mentioned to you before, obviously my background is in creating sort of large scale events such as Global Citizen and have done a couple of large scale events with PeakMind. And I've just been thinking about and exploring and will likely launch sort of a free digital event with the spirit of being of service to anyone that needs these resources and just have them sort of parked on peak mind, but basically reach out to a lot of these compass bearers and ask, hey.

Things are getting challenging for a lot of folks and I think that it's a mental game a lot of us are not used to. How do you approach it? What are the tools that are most helpful? And how can we empower people with tools in their toolbox that they can use to navigate these uncertain times and to find their way back to center? Because no matter who you are.

Every one of us, I think, has been thrown off center. And so I think there's a real need now for us to reset our mental game to sort of prep mindset, talk to people who have been through profound adversity and really tap back into that sense of resilience and how we can be resilient in our lives and use this.

Obstacle as an opportunity to bring sort of the Ryan Holiday back in to turn the crap into compost for new gardens. So that's the vision.

That's a damn good vision. I love that vision.

Thanks.

Because that's the truth. No one knows the way, but the way is whatever path you have, you know, a lot. There's a lot of reinvention happening right now, and not only to businesses, you know, to the business owners listening, but just personal lives. I mean, everybody is under this insane pressure now with, with the lockdown and, you know, with all the other factors that you mentioned as well. So it's tough to find that compass sometimes. And I think that's going back to podcasts. That's the beauty of having a podcast as well. You know, attaching to someone who does have a network or is kind of sifted and sorted for you. And ideally it's someone you're following that has actually done the work. And they're not just saying yes to everyone, which I know you do not say yes to everyone. So you bring out the best in people. But it's also the Best in your network. Yes. And I think it's just the most powerful thing that people could be attaching to in this time right now and not glued to some screen that's just death toll, new infections or what's happening with the job unemployment. It's like there's some effects that are happening that are going to last and unfortunately not a lot of folks will find a compass. And I think that's what's really scary. However this is going to unfold for a lot of folks.

Well, you hit it on the head there. This is sort of an extreme example, but.

We'Re kind of also conditioning ourselves in new and dangerous ways. Not just through the consumption of media, but also in the fact that we're now being, we're seeing strangers as potential threats, right? Like we're. Which I think is appropriate from an epidemiological perspective to maintain social distance, take all the requisite precautions. But what are the long term consequences of being apart and socially distant and maintaining that distance? And not only that, but like, you know what to see everyone as a potential threat, right? Like someone coughs in front of you, like people get nervous, you know what I mean? Like, oh yeah, you know, it's like, it's like people see you as potentially like, like an existential threat. And I think, you know, extreme example. But like that's kind of what I think, you know, racism is. It's like this artificial construct where it's like you've just been conditioned into a reality which is totally not real, but then that's taking hold of their brain. And now we're in an era where people are being socialized to be scared of each other. That seeing someone as an existential threat and we're all walking around wearing masks, you know, and so much of communication is non verbal. So it's like, you know, people are kind of like trying to teeter and navigate around you. And so instead of a handshake and a warm hug, people are greeted with like sort of a wariness. And what that, what that ultimately will mean for us collectively if that becomes a default way of interacting, we have no idea. But it's, it definitely doesn't bode well for, you know, our individual and collective mindsets. So I just think that there's a new toolbox that we're going to have to bring to bear to help bring us back to a place of healthy mindsets and getting really in a good way to navigate through these uncharted waters. Right. And so that's the vision I have is like, let's bring some people that have great compasses that have navigated through this, you know, been through adversity, you know, and what, you know, what does this look like financially? What does this look like from parenting point of view? What does this look like in terms of like, how we market and build our businesses? What does it look like in terms of relating to our friends and community? How do we look out for those who are most vulnerable? You know, like the incidence of loneliness right now and suicide and how do, like there's whole ancillary risk beyond the virus itself that's being propagated. So, so how do we make people feel seen and heard and connected and take care obviously of their survival needs, their basic needs, making sure they have food and shelter, but also helping them with the psychological aspects of life. I think that's the piece that I'm really intrigued by at the moment and where I want to use PeakMind as a resource to empower people with some of those tools to navigate through these times.

Yeah, Matt, were you gonna say something there?

Yeah, I was just gonna comment. It's very interesting from like a parent's perspective. Right. I've got two kids, I've got a seven and a five year old right now. My five year old, this was his first year in elementary school. So his first experience with going to like public school is he went for two months and then all of a sudden school shut down and now he's working from a computer in the mornings. You know, like that's his experience with school. And we're getting all of these like notifications and emails now saying like when school comes back they might go to like classrooms of only like 10 or 12k. Like school might only be like Monday, Wednesday, Friday. And like the kids will go on alternating days so that the teachers can work with one set of kids on these days. And, and like, it's really, really interesting because nobody knows how this is all going to play out. Like, is this going to affect the socialization of my kids? Are my kids gonna, you know, like the kids that are in high school right now? We were talking about it with one of our last guests. The kids that are like the seniors in high school aren't getting the experience of their senior promotion. How is that going to like affect things down the line? It's like it's such like uncharted territory that that's what I think freaks me out and probably most people out the most is nobody knows what happens next. Right.

Yeah, exactly, right. I mean, John Krasanski just did a good news network and he did a grad virtual graduation. I don't know if you guys saw that. No, but I.

Love seeing is. I love seeing positive kind of.

Approaches. Yeah, he basically, you know, he had like, he'll have graduates on and for one, he had like Jon Stewart come on and give life advice. Another Oprah came on and gave life advice, Steven Spielberg. But it was all these great high school kids and it was like just that spirit of trying to provide some good news and connect. You know, a lot of kids are. That's a rite of passage, right? Like our modern day. In our culture, there's so few instances where we actually mark which is such a human need and human trait, where traditionally and culturally we've had rites of passage to demarcate our moving from one phase of life into the next, from boyhood to manhood or girlhood to womanhood. And graduation is one of those rites of passage. And.

We don't know the consequence that has when you're not acknowledged. A lot of times that ceremony is when someone's actually acknowledged for all the hard work that you put in over four years. You know, I mean, it's like, wow. And so like put all that hard work in and then kind of feel like it kind of just flew in the wind and you know, birthdays and all these different kind of important times where humans need to be acknowledged. You know, they need to feel connected. They need to feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves and that they're seen and they're heard and they're loved. And yeah, I think not having these important social rights, you know, is going to have its consequence. We don't know yet what that consequence will be, but I think we got to figure out some new, new, new ways of acknowledging people and finding, you know, ways to make people feel seen and heard such that it. It mitigates against some of the deleterious effects.

Right? Yeah, I think that's. That's so true. So I'm curious of like all these interviews you've done, even prior to the COVID stuff, but what are some healthy mindsets? I know you mentioned that I think briefly, but how do you train yourself to kind of keep yourself on an even keel, point yourself in the right direction with your compass that you've kind of collectively brought together? So what are some principles that you live by that we can pass on and maybe there's someone else's that you've adopted or something like that?

Well, I'm always in the listening. And I'm always trying to add new tools into my toolbox, but I would say some that I've put into my own life, it's been in part about eliminating the things that don't serve me and in part about adding in things that do. So, you know, I think stopping that alcohol, especially during this time when things have been so uncertain and so acutely challenging, both for the collective and for me personally. Right. Like going through my father's passing and then whilst also in pandemic and this collective suffering not to be at the emotional effect, which I think often happens as a result of drinking, where you just have this more of an emotional roller coaster. That's definitely served me, I think that I have a morning practice where I go out and I try to get some sunlight in my eyes to sort of start setting this circadian rhythm. And oftentimes I'll do my 10 minute meditation. I used to do it inside. I'm making a very concerted effort now. If you are able to go outside, even if it's opening the window or being in front of the window, you know, taking the screen off and like sticking your head out if you have to, to just get that sunlight, that vitamin D, set your circadian rhythms doing those, doing, you know, some deep breath work. The good news is I think right now a lot of people are offering free classes. So you can find yoga classes for free. You know, Moto Yoga is offering some that I've tried breath work you can get for free. There's a company called My Intent which is offering a bunch of free classes. So I think there's so breath work I do journaling. So I'm taking time to actually reflect and process some of the things that are coming up. For me, I think not to romanticize this time, but I do think there are some gifts, you know, in terms of the, the greater existential quandary of being alone and being able to pause and be like, okay, and again, not to trivialize anyone's suffering. It's just to say if you do have the opportunity to get some quiet time within. I do think, think this is a time where it is kind of a collective rite of passage. You know, like there were. There are a lot of challenges going on on the planet for the planet, you know, for all of us at this time. And I think in some ways it's kind of a. My personal belief is that there's a greater sort of.

Existential question being asked of all of us of like, how do we rise up individually and collectively to meet that challenge. So for me, journaling and being in contemplation, reading in the nighttime, I'm very fortunate in that I have a sauna that I use which has become part of my evening routine. I'm turning the lights off, I'm using my blue light blocking glasses. I'm sort of setting my circadian rhythm to prepare for sleep. Sauna and then I do a cold shower which everyone has access to. So some of the things I learned from Wim HOF and a variety of these different practices of boosting immunity and decreasing inflammation. I'm trying to eat as much whole foods. You know, here's a personal meal I just cooked, but it's all the different colors of the rainbow. You know, pasture raised eggs, kale, purple potatoes, garlic, onions, which are anti viral. Not saying that that's in itself a cure for anything, but just looking at natural ways to boost immunity, boost the inputs, the fuel that I'm putting into my body. Especially now when it's like, like. And look, look, let's keep it real. I emotionally eat just like anyone does.

You know, you're not superhuman.

I mean, I watched Tiger King and ate some chips, you know what I mean? You know, like, it's so, it's not say I'm perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but those are the things I find really help me. You know, I, I can't, I can't really go to the gym, so I've been, I, I don't really care for running, but I've been jogging because I live, you know, close to the beach, so. And it's wide enough to where I can maintain social distance. So I'm just finding practices that help keep me in a good way, you know, in a healthy mental frame of mind. So those are some of the ones that I've implemented. There's obviously lots more I could talk about, but those are kind of the core.

That's good. Yeah. And like what you mentioned about journaling and not romanticizing this time, but definitely reflecting and seeing what comes up. I mean, you know, late last year I lost my dad to suicide. And that was not pretty at all. But I had some of my biggest breakthroughs. And that was a time of personal mourning, of course, and it was a very traumatic one, but it brought in so many answers for myself. And all of us have that opportunity in an interesting way to do that now because this is a time that we didn't see coming. It's a time for opportunity in so many new ways, fresh ways, a Molding of something that you've maybe done in the past or you've neglected or just. Just weren't aware of because the journaling practice. Yeah, I've been going strong for a long time now, and it's like probably the most therapeutic thing, but also just mind opening, grounding thing. A practice in my. I do it in the evening where, I don't know, my mind goes wild. But yeah, I mean, it's these weird, unexpected, tragic times that some of the best ideas and self improvement can be fostered.

Totally agree. And my condolences on the loss of your dad, having just gone through that myself. Man, it's. It's a real. It's. Yeah, I won't even do justice to the words, but I do think there's. You know, it's interesting just because I happen to have this in my hand as we're talking, but this Memento mori, which is the Stoic creed. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but that one, this was given to me not try to be a promo for Ryan Holiday, but he gave me this, actually. And this was prior to my father's passing. But it's a. It's a coin and it's a Stoic philosophy, which is use death as an impetus for living. And this is my interpretation. But. But, yeah, but basically, in the old days of the Stoics, even like after a great victory, like an emperor running through the parades, right, we talk about the. The opposite of our social distancing to be. To be heralded with accolades would have someone behind them yelling, memento mori. Memento mori. So, like, even in the moments of your greatest success, you're thinking about the fact that actually this is all impermanent, that death, that death greets all of us at some point. And I think without being morose, one of the things that I think we're being collectively confronted with and in our case is individually confronted with is this mortality, you know, is actually the fact that death, no one escapes death. Right. And we don't culturally like to think about it or talk about. I don't like to think about it. You know, I'd say it's, you know, aging. Aging and death are things that I think culturally, at least, at least in the States, are something that really is swept under the rug. And so I've kind of forced myself to confront it. One, I had to. I didn't have an option. But also I started. It was like, you know, like I reached out. There's a guy, I did a Podcast highly recommend. This guy, BJ Miller, who's a palliative care doctor, he actually had his own near death experience. He lost three of his limbs. But he's shepherd, he's, he's brought over, I think now a thousand people. I first learned about him on Tim Ferriss podcast, but he's got a great TED talk and he's helped over a thousand people die. Well. And a conversation I had with him, it wound up being a conversation I had just before I went to see my dad. And the timing, it's hard to even describe. Like you start to feel like, wow, this is wild. But the thoughts he gave me were so profound in terms of the mindset around thinking about death and since then. And I'm far from perfect obviously in this regard either, but I've just been thinking a lot more and holding this coin and thinking about, okay, well, when I'm worrying about something that just feels like it's, or watching news on Facebook that just doesn't serve me or anything that feels like it's not food for my soul and, and probably a waste of time. And again, not to say don't fall into the tiger, tiger king traps, but, but just, but, but largely now I have more of an acute awareness of the preciousness of time.

That's right.

And how finite it is and what really matters. And I think we're all kind of being confronted with that collectively, right? Where it's like, you know, we're amidst this existential seeming threat, you know, now it's looking thankfully like it's, it's still a profound threat, but less like a month and a half ago. Some of this, the projections were catastrophic. Like it looked like, it looked like it could be another version of the 1918 flu. But thankfully, knock on wood, it's turned out. You know, and hopefully it'll play out that it's less virulent and deadly than that. But I think all of us are still faced with this. You know, this is likely something almost everyone will have to confront at some point. Obviously it seems to affect those with underlying conditions more significantly than others. But even young people that I've talked to that have had it or seen it, I mean, it is not, it's not pretty in. And that's the, that's putting it lightly. So I think it's fronting us, forcing us to confront the, the, the notion of death. It's confronting, forcing us to confront how healthy we are, how much we built up our immunity. And I think it's, it's, it's sort of calling us also to question things we took for granted and also things that we invested our time in that are frankly probably aren't worth our time and energy.

Right.

Like, I don't know about you, but I've been like. And I don't know why I was tripping on that. Like, that. That took me like a week of my time. Like, that was. That was. I could, I could. I should let that go right away or like, you know, things like that. You're just like, wow, okay.

You're right.

Sitting in on me and Joe's conversations over the last couple weeks, dude, it's.

It's. It's a constant onion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Matt and I in the business, definitely, personally, with my dad going, that was an immediate thing. I'm sure you've experienced very similar things.

Yeah.

By the way, I'm getting that coin. I just made a note. So, I mean, and if you think about it, and thank you for sharing that. I think it's awesome. I heard him talking about that Ryan Holiday before.

I think it's a collective morning right now with just, like, how things were just a couple months ago at the time of this recording. I mean, I don't think we're going back to how things were in so many ways. I mean, it's impossible. I mean, it's the past, but now it's been, like, rocked. So, you know, collectively, that coin is probably something everyone should probably have in mind or maybe get. We'll find a link and drop it in the show notes. But I mean, it's a great reminder. And that was one of the big things. It was like, okay, here are the things I'm proud of how I live my life, but also looking at my dad's life, and these are the things I probably. I'm not as proud of and reflect on things in his life as well, because I realized a lot of those traits in a weird way. I'm like, well, not weird because he's my father, but they were in me and I just didn't realize them. There were a lot of blind spots that just immediately popped up. I was like, whoa, how long have I been ignoring that thing? And I think this time, right now is just a collective perfect time to reflect and identify those blind spots and how you can move forward and grow.

I think that's beautifully said. I think it is. We either let. This time there's a saying, and you and I, we all met in a leadership training, but there's a, you know, there's a Saying for me, and I don't think it originated in that particular training, but perhaps another leadership training that I've done before where they said, you know, ostensibly you're either you know, at cause or at effect. And it's kind of like another way to put it is like you're either enrolling people in your vision or being enrolled into theirs. But I think the sense of, of being at cause is being is knowing what you want, living from a place of vision and being committed to it, and then basically going off and creating commensurate with that vision. Being at effect to me is always being in the wind to other people's agendas, other people's visions, other people's ideas, thoughts, you know, plans. And the longer we don't we aren't clear on our own vision, the more we're subject to being at a effect to others. Right? Because that's just, that's kind of, that's just how it seems to work. And so, so I think right now what's interesting is we're all in a way at effect to something way bigger than ourselves. But in that being at effect, we have the opportunity to get so crystal clear on what we want to be at cause with. You know, like, it's like, okay, you know, like we're, we're massively collectively like in this collective pause and add effect to like, okay, well, some things are just bigger than us. Death is bigger than us, pandemics are bigger than us. And, and there's actually like, I think some real beauty in that humility, you know, Like, I think especially in an egoic oriented society such as we live in, where sometimes we live by these false prophets of like, oh, happiness comes on the other end of accumulating shit, tons of money or you know, the perfect 10 girlfriend or whatever it is, and pardon my profanity, is just to say, like for effect, sometimes we, we, we seek things outside of ourselves, thinking that that's gonna bring it to us. And I think in moments like this where even the person with those things that's court sort of made it right, like the billionaires of the world, everyone's still stuck in their home. Granted, their home might be a little bit nicer to be stuck in, but they're, they're not out enjoying, you know, their billions right now. Everyone stuck basically doing the, you know, do it if they're smart, doing this, doing the Skype calls, connecting, reaching out. But the people that are really are at effect are the ones where you get lost in that wormhole. And that's not making them bad, but like, you know, where Tiger King turns into a Netflix and chill for five days or seven days and nothing but ice cream and chips and, you know, drinking and like, you know, basically losing yourself into the being at effectness of. Of life. And I think, think the opportunity we're all in is in this collective pause is to what degree are you going to be at effect and to what degree are you going to step into that which you care about, that which is deep in your vision, and step into being a cause for that?

Dude.

This is a book right here.

You have a way with words. Like, you just. You, like, hypnotize us when you talk about this stuff. It's just amazing. Keep talking.

But I guess that's what peak mind is there for. But you don't probably do as much. Well, you don't do as much of the talking there, but still.

No, I don't actually. That felt good. I don't even know where it came from.

Silent.

At the end of the day, there is a gift being given to people. All of the stuff that a lot of people have taken for granted for so long, there's a spotlight put on it right now, right? It's like you don't appreciate the warmth until you felt the coldness. Right? And right now we're feeling the coldness. So when we come out of this, ideally, everybody looks back at this situation and remembers what we went through and remembers all the things that they took for granted and, like, let that stuff stick with them beyond this event that's happening right now. And I think the world will actually be a better place if people could sort of remember these times once we come out of these times. And I think that's a thing that I've journaled on a lot. And something that I want to keep remembering is like, as I journal each day, I'm writing down the things that I'm grateful for that I've probably taken for granted until there. There's a spotlight on them right now. And so, you know, I think. I think that's. That's an important thing to take away from what's going on right now.

Yeah, I agree. I.

It's.

It's like, what is that? What are the takeaways? And can we actually hold them? I think the one challenge is not to be pessimistic, because I think I veer. I'm a pragmatic optimist, but I think, you know, oftentimes these, for lack of a better term, catastrophic or highly, you Know, these, these events that are massive disruptors, you know, natural disasters or other events, you know, and I volunteered, for example, in Haiti after the earthquake, that are. That are just. That are absolutely horrific. The, the positive is, though, is the way that it causes humanity to rise in our shared humanity, you know, in our shared human nature. And I think that's the thing that's actually being shown to us is that the fallacy that we are. And I'm, look, I love individual liberty. I love the fact that we get to choose how we want to live our lives. But I think the fallacy of individual liberty at no cost is just that it's a fallacy. Right. We've been shown that actually we are inherently interdependent and inherently interconnected, and that if one person on one side of the world gets a disease, it's very feasible that all of us could potentially get that disease. And so. And also, if you take a stand and, you know, say in the words of like, you know, in a great. Like a Martin Luther King or a Mother Teresa or a Gandhi or a Mandela, you know, if you take actions that can have such profound positive implications. But oftentimes after these events happen, we go back to default mode, right? Or, like, or our default lives. It's like, there is no going back. But oftentimes, I, if I, if I had to posit a guess, most people, like, I can't wait till we go back to real life or go back to reality, right? Like, there, yeah, if this is actually the medicine it should be, there is no going back. It's like, okay, we come out of this fundamentally different. This is the graduation. This is the rite of passage into coming out on the other side, you know, And. And I think that's the thing is like, do we use this as just another thing that happened that was, like, unfortunate and messed me up, that we're victim to. Or. And that's not to assuage or like, say, you know, people aren't having very real suffering here. I'm not minimizing that in any way, but just like, like, but do. Are we a victim to it, or are we able to, amidst all that challenge, say, okay, here's what I'm committed to on the other side, and I'm going to fundamentally come at life differently. I'm going to let this go. Like you said, like, I'm going to let go those things that I was doing before that really weren't serving me, you know, and what a better time than now to say, okay, no more, you know, from this point forward, I am, I'm not bringing this to the other side. You know, like, this is, this is getting left behind, and then that creates space for a whole new reality. Or do I just say, oh, sweet, things are back to usual can't, you know, usual to whatever that default world was, and we all go back and then unfortunately, if things don't change, both individually and collectively, the next, the next reminder from, you know, the, you know, the, the. The great beyond. So the bigger green is a bigger pandemic, which is actually more virulent and more concerning. And I, and I think. Not that I would ever call that, Call that in. It's just to say, like, I think that there's lessons, and if we learn those lessons.

And we appropriate and we write the ships, both individually and collectively, we can mitigate against some of the future risk if we just use it as its opportunity to turn, tune out and then go back to default aspects of life that weren't serving anyone in the first place. And we do that collectively. There's 8 billion of us. It's not gonna, it's not gonna turn out well. It's not gonna bode well for our collective future.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think one thing that I really hope a lot of people get out of this whole thing too is remember during this time, which workers you considered essential too, because I, you know, it's such a fascinating thing to see, like, what we consider essential right now. The essentials right now are the people that are making our food, the people that are doing the deliveries, you know, the doctors, the law enforcement, the firefighters that are still working out on the front lines, helping the people that are going through all this stuff, you know, but, you know, more specifically, like the people that are delivering our food, the people that are running the, like, still going into the work every day and cooking food and deliver and, you know, delivering it and stuff. I don't really. Those people don't really have like a high sort of status in our culture. And I think right now everybody is seeing like, holy crap, like, how can we live without these people? Teachers too? Like, look at all the kids that are at home and all the parents going nuts going, my God, like, these teachers are not paid enough. Right? And I'm hoping when we come out of this, everybody feels that sense of community. It's still there. And people go, okay, these people need to make more. Right? And then you look at like the highest paid people on earth. You got your, you know, your athletes, your movie stars, your actors, stuff like that. How essential were they really? Did, you know, the money that they were all getting, like, could some of that go towards other places that we right now are seeing as essential? And I just. I think it's fascinating to look at that and look at how our culture has decided, you know, this deserves this amount of money, but this doesn't quite deserve as much. But then when shit hits the fan, who do we need? Right? So I just think it's fascinating to look at it, and I hope that people remember that aspect of it because, like, I know the teachers that taught my kids aren't making enough.

Yeah, no, you hit it on the head. I think, you know, this notion of what is essential. I think that's a very beautiful point, right. Like, we often in society, I mean, the disproportionate resources, and even, unfortunately, in this Covid time, right. Like the billionaires in our world have gotten richer during this period of time, like, by orders of magnitude. And if we haven't learned historically, most civilizations fall when the disparity between the haves and the have nots become too great. And that's definitely happening. And I think the piece you mentioned, I mean, I was reflecting on that very same thing, and I walked out this morning and I saw some gentlemen getting together for work, and they were working on repairing a house. And I was just thinking, man, so grateful, like, all the people, for example, that are growing the food. I was thinking about that today as I was, you know, as I was eating my kale and my, you know, not to be a California stereotype, but my kale and my. My garlic and my onions and like, all those things. And talking to a friend before, like I was saying, who's in Nepal? And they don't. And there's huge food scarcity and like, just the. The idea that, like, which goes into. Not to get so political, but like, you know, immigration as well, and like, you know, some of the people that don't have even the basic rights of citizenship. I mean, at least now some people who are really. And not woefully enough, you know, I mean, I know a lot of single moms who are waitresses, because I've heard in other states, like on NPR that are getting like $80 a week. But then there's certain people that are, like, you know, who are, like, in the fields that are undocumented, that are getting nothing, but yet you wouldn't be able to survive if they weren't doing the work that they're doing in the fields or others, as you said, who are who are making the deliveries or the folks that are obviously the nurses and the firefighters. All these people that are absolute heroes. And I think it is shining a light on their. Their profound value. And I think it is interesting that societally we exalt things across the board, I think, both in terms of professions, but also the things that we're chasing after, the great carrots in our society.

There's that famous sort of quote which is like, I'd love to see a billionaire be defined as someone who's impacted the lives of a billion people rather than someone who's amassed a billion dollars. Right. Like, you know, and I, and I've seen in confronting this mortality question, you know, you don't take any. We all know this intellectually, but I, as I sat at my father's desk and looked around, I was like, all these material possessions, you know, none of that went with him. You know, none of that. None of that's. None of that's going, you know, that's. That didn't go along the journey. And that's not to say, you know, you know, we don't have things we all love that are, that are sentimental and meaningful and all of that. But, but why, if you're a multiple billionaire, do you need to keep accumulating billions? Is it what for?

And to your point, at what cost is the gross accumulation of resources after a certain point? What cost is it to all of our collective future if those essential workers aren't looked after such that we can keep life as we know it going? Because as we've seen now, it is more fragile than we think. You know, and, and, and you. If you could have all the money in the world, but the bank won't open or you can't get food to your door, you can't get delivery, you know, like, those are just zeros and they're. And you've spent your life accumulating something you can't even really use. So I think it's, it's. And, you know, another friend of our mutual friend Louis said, you know, you give a billion, take a billionaire, the biggest billionaire in the world, and if all of a sudden they found out they had a terminal illness, how fast would they give that billions up for another year of living or another two years of living? And I think that's oftentimes the thing that we take for granted is, you know, and as the Buddha said, you know, of all wealth, health is greatest and best. And I think we're being collectively reminded of that right now. There's no greater wealth than the health we have, and frankly, no greater wealth than what we already take for granted. You know, the sun shines, we have clean water to drink if we're fortunate enough to be listening in a place where we don't.

Fresh air.

Fresh air. We have roofs over our heads if we're fortunate enough. I'm presuming most people are listening, at least have the mechanisms to. By which to listen to a radio. I mean, basically, we are wealthy beyond measure. And. And I think that's the other piece, right. Is like the. The medicine that comes in being grateful for that which we do have. And I think that's the other piece is like, man, I'm so grateful for the essential workers, and I'm so grateful for the things that I've often taken for granted, you know, like just being able to, like, go outside and breathe air after being inside for so long, you know, and just go outside. Exactly. Just go outside. Like, you hear a bird call, you're like, wow, that.

That sounds good.

That's the best thing I've heard all day, you know, like, yeah, yeah, it's. It's a great reckoning happening.

It is. It's a perspective change. And I hope that. I'm sure people have listened to us this long, you know, hung along with us. They're. They're feeling that change and they're agreeing. So. Yep, I think this would be a good place to wrap it up, man. I mean, this is. This has been a great journey just in this conversation.

And, like, likewise.

I'm almost like hypnotic listening to him like it is. Yes, this is the way. So let's, let's remind folks. So PeakMind is your podcast. How can folks go find that?

Yeah, so it's PeakMind with Michael Trainor on all podcast platforms. You know, Apple, iHeartRadio, Spotify, all the things. I'm just ichaeltrainer on all the social platforms. Feel free to reach out. I love, I love responding to everyone. And yeah, Michael Trainor, you know, if you just. You can Google me or peakmind.org is my website, so those are the main ways to get in contact. Always love building the community. So grateful for you guys, for what you've built in terms of your community here and these great listeners. So always an honor to come on and I'm grateful for the opportunity. Grateful for you guys.

We'll do it again when the book's out and I know you have your virtual event coming out sometime. I don't know if it's how it lines up with the episode release of this thing, but we'll point to it nonetheless.

Love it.

Yeah, man. So I appreciate you and Matt. Anything else?

No, I mean, we covered a lot of ground. I love this conversation. Thanks.

Likewise. Thanks, Jess.

Thank you, man.

Bye, guys.

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Thanks so much for tuning into that episode. I hope you dug it. I know Joe and I dug it. I actually kicked Joe out of the room. He's not here right now. Because I wanted to tell you about a tool that I really, really dig. We use it in our business. We recommend all the time. It's called Easy Webinar. And it's a tool that lets you do live webinars, automated webinars, hybrid webinars, and, you know, pretty much any other kind of webinar, if there are other kinds of webinars. But anyway, this tool is kind of like your all in one, do it all tool for anything webinar related. It's easy webinar. It's put out by a dude named Casey Zman. He's been on the podcast. If you haven't listened to that episode, it's a killer episode. He's a really smart dude, but his software is amazing. It does everything. It's, you know, the title tells you exactly what it does. It's an easy webinar platform. And we use this in our business to run automated webinars all the time. We don't do a lot of live webinars these days. We like to do the kind of automated webinars where somebody can register and then it, you know, they can either watch it like 15 minutes later or they can watch it the next day, but it's just kind of always running. And it's a system that helps us make autopilot sales off of our webinars. Super cool tool. If you haven't tried it yet, you know, it's, it's, it's an amazing tool. And Casey is actually hooking you up, he said. For listeners of Hustle and Flowchart, I can't believe he's doing this. But he said for listeners of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, he's giving 25% off of the membership to use Easy Webinar. It's already super, super inexpensive for what it does and all the cool features it has. But he's hooking you up with 25% off because you're a listener of Hustle and flowchart. Go to easywebinar.com hustle that's where you can get that 25% off discount. That's easywebinar.com hustole. It's a awesome tool. You're going to dig it, so just go grab it. Check it out. Easywebinar.com hustle See ya. No, not see ya. You'll hear me in the next show. I don't know. I don't know how to close these things. Go get Easy Webinar. Talk to you later.

Thanks, everybody for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

Go get it.