Michael Woodward — Micro-Experiments - How To Make Big Projects Simple

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flow Chart podcast with your boys, Mount Wolf and Joe Fear.

Wiki wicky wiki. Hey, hey. We back. We back. And you're looking snazzy today in your Evergreen Profits T shirt. I am. It's beautiful.

Yes. I love this. My favorite shirt I own, actually.

And he designed it. So then you know it's self serving right there. Yes. I'm not even a designer and he actually pulled this thing off really nicely.

Pulled it out of my booty.

Props.

Actually. I watched some Photoshop tutorials on. I literally watched like 30 minutes of Photoshop tutorials to do something that took me five minutes in Photoshop.

He could have just called me, but he chose not to. Yeah. Well, welcome back to another amazing episode, right, Matt? I think this one's pretty dang amazing.

It's pretty good.

Personally. We have Michael Woodward on the show. He's from Jumble Think popular podcast, awesome website. He breaks down a whole ton of cool information on there that you're going to learn actually in this podcast. We're not going to tell you about that right now, but. But dude's amazing. We met him back at New Media Summit in Austin a few months back, Steve Molsher's event. We've talked about it before and he's just an all around brilliant dude, amazing thinker. And I think he kind of has our mantra, keep it simple, keep it fun and simple. That's really what this thing's all about.

And I think the really fascinating part about this episode is when we start talking about micro experiments because he has this five step process to implement what he calls micro experiments that make large projects feel very easy to tackle. And so we really get into his process of how do you break down these massive projects into their smallest parts and just do little tests that inch you forward towards that goal. And he breaks down an amazing process and I think you're really going to love it. Get ready to take some notes when he breaks into that stuff. It's some awesome, awesome concepts.

Yeah. So I was stoked on it and I think we'll be kind of shifting and working that way a little bit more and more. It's already the way we've been rolling.

Definitely if you. We've chatted about it before, but the traffic, audience growth, that's what we're all about. It's what we do for the podcast and everything else we got going on. We got a beautiful course. It's beautiful right Shady. It's. Matt's really into it.

It's the most beautiful course you ever see. Trust me, everybody thinks it's beautiful. You'll love it. It's amazing. That's my Donald Trump selling.

Oh, wow. Okay. Well, if you haven't heard about it, perpetual audience growth. It's how we drive basically new traffic to anything we create.

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Let's go talk to Michael Woodward because he's got some really good stuff to say. Boom. Hey, Michael, thanks so much for joining us today. How you doing today?

I am great. Thanks so much for having me on.

Yeah. So our audience doesn't know this, but I'll give them a little peek behind the curtain. We actually did have a guest cancel on us, and Michael's someone that we've wanted to get on the podcast. We met you out at New Media Summit a few months back and talked about having you on the podcast, and we had a cancellation and you were ready to jump into the slot. And we're super excited because this was an episode we were looking forward to doing eventually, and now we get to do it sooner than we thought. So thanks so much for being super flexible and jumping on the air with us.

Yeah, I think one of my most awkward memories of New Media Summit was between Matt and I. Ooh, do tell.

Let's hear this, because I don't remember it.

They did, like, the weirdest, like, group activity where you got an inch from each Other's face. And you stared into each other's eyes.

Yes. Okay. Yep. I know exactly where you're going now.

And I think that what Matt and I got out of it was one, it was really weird. And two, we didn't know which eye to look at.

Yes.

That was what I remember. I kept on like, shifting from like, do I look at the left eye.

Or the right eye?

Because if I just stare straight ahead, then it's like my eyes go blurry.

It's like, are you a follower? So the other guy's leading or who's the leader? You know? Contrarian.

Yes.

Don't worry. I did that when I had the same issues. So I think it's pretty common.

That is funny.

So you got a lot out of that eye exercise, it sounds like.

Yeah, I noticed that I don't out of it.

That there are things that I just simply don't understand what other people see in it. That was one of them. I like Matt a lot, but not that close. I'm sorry, Matt. It's just not. It's not personal.

So now you know exactly where like, all my, like, zits are and where I like, I missed shaving that day.

And Matt didn't scrub his face. Pores are huge. I don't know.

Yeah, no, that was my big lesson from that is standing an inch from somebody else's face, staring him in the eyes is really freaking awkward for.

Pass out the Mintos before we do that next time.

Yeah. And I think I was probably self conscious because I drank a coffee earlier and I'm like, all right, we're close to each other's faces. This is. Anyway.

Yeah. All right. Well, Steve, it's your choice if you're listening to this, to continue with the exercise or not.

I vote never do that again. Steve. It was just. It was weird.

I know this will get back to him without us saying anything.

I'm sure it will.

We'll let that happen.

All right, so let's get into your story a little bit. I'm curious, who is Michael Woodward? No, I'm not going to ask that question.

Little awkward.

No. Can you. Can you sort of tell us our story? Because you're. You're an entrepreneur like us. So I'm curious, what did you do before you were an entrepreneur and what did that journey look like into becoming an entrepreneur?

Right. So for me, entrepreneurship has been something that was baked into me prior to me ever realizing it. I always had ideas, always had dreams. How. Always wanted to do and create things. And for me, I ended up going into pastoral ministry. For several years, I worked at a church in Northern California, working with recovering addicts and being a youth pastor and overseeing music department and doing really cool stuff. And then the economy tumbled. The church came to the staff, and it was very missional. The church wasn't a huge church, but they're reaching about 12,000 people in the little town that they're in.

That's pretty good.

And they're doing really, really great stuff. When most of your church is under poverty and they're tithing or giving to the church and still your mission is bigger than the funds, then you have to fund other ways. So the senior pastor funded the church through a construction company that he started. And he came to us and just said, hey, I'm sitting on like 14 houses and in Northern California, that's stupid money. I don't know how or when we're going to be able to pay you and what that looks like. And so the core leadership, all of us just said, hey, we will stay on here and volunteer. I went and ended up working for a friend of mine to pay the bills. He owned a web agency, and he decided after I was working there for about a year and a half that he was going to sell the company. So myself and another gentleman split the company. That other guy, he ended up working for Apple, managing all their version control for their os. And so he said, do you want to buy the company? And I said, sure. So I bought out his half of the company and just continued to grow, built a big agency. And so that was the official migration from the film Tropic charitable Church space into an entrepreneurial journey. It was out of necessity, but I think it really tapped into something that was a part of my core of who I was and who I was created to be.

That's. That's pretty amazing. And it taught you to kind of give back immediately. It sounds like, in a much bigger way, play at a high level.

Right. And you know, when you. So I have all kinds of crazy stories from working at the church. And when you're working in that kind of intensity where your decisions could dictate the life and death of somebody because they OD and you didn't step in or take the time for them or that you have to deal with family members that are.

Being hit by the ramifications of a decision of a family member and now they don't have a parent or a spouse, and you have to walk through that, it changes your perspective on what's important, how you view the world and then what you invest in. And so that's just been part of my journey and that's carried over into the entrepreneurial space and how we treat our clients, how we interface with them and beyond that on some of the things that we're doing now.

Yeah, and you're doing some. We'll dig into that stuff you mentioned a little further. But I know you have your podcast as well. Jumble Think, right? Yeah, it's crushing it. You're doing well and it's an amazing podcast. The stories you can extract from, from folks as well. And when did that kind of come on scene? Is that like through this whole kind of process through entrepreneurship?

You know, for many entrepreneurs there comes a point in which they are operating out of obligation. I have to do this because I've built this or I have to continue on this journey because it's what I need to do. For us, when we build out an agency, we had 12 full time people working for us. We were doing web Dev for Fortune 100 companies.

You know, there was a moment in which it was I went into this industry out of necessity and now it's grown and it's doing well. But now I'm operating out of obligation because I have other people I'm responsible for. There's other things I have to do. And I was meeting with my business coach. He looked at me one day and said, what do you want to do? And I looked down, I said, what? What does that even mean? I go, I have to do this. I'm running an agency. I have to make sure we have payroll, we have to make sure the client projects are done. We have to keep in scope and I'm doing everything I have to do. And he goes, look, you are the person that owns this business. You are the person that creates it. You are the one who decides the direction in which it's going to go. And in that, you get to decide what you want to do. And for me, that started a journey that was probably about four and a half years ago now of going, what in the world do I want to do? And there was a lot of things about web design and the agency I loved, loved working with clients and talking about their dreams and converting that into a technology and helping them reach their audience and communicate their message. I loved crafting that, but I didn't love sitting behind a computer for eight hours writing code. Can I do it? Yeah. Am I good at it? Yeah. But there are people who are bent and born to do that that are phenomenal at it we had people on our team that were like that. For me, that wasn't what I was born to do. And so I began this journey of saying, what in the world do I want to do? And it came back to a place of saying, I like pastoring people. Can I do that as an entrepreneur? Can I do that in a place where I can help others achieve their dreams, achieve their goals, give them guidance, walk through the tough seasons, celebrate the great seasons? And I said, so how can I explore this? The podcast was one of the first outlets that I really thought was a way to do that by meeting with other entrepreneurs, talking about their journeys, hearing their stories, and encouraging others who are early in that journey of saying, I want to step into the unknown and chase my dreams, chase my ideas. To say, you know, there is nothing superhuman about any of these entrepreneurs. They are just simply people that have been intentional about the choices that they've made, taken the risk and moved forward. Anyone can do that. And the question becomes, how do you do that? And by sharing the stories of entrepreneurs and dreamers and innovators and influencers and how they do that through the podcast, it is an outlet for others who are earlier in the journey that are maybe not even in the journey to say, hey, this is a journey I could be on too.

That is so cool. And it's true. Because a lot of folks will start a small business out of necessity or obligation, feeling like, okay, here's my mortgage, here's my rent, you know, my cars, family food on the table. I gotta quit this job that I hate. But it's so tough to make that switch to thinking bigger or you are not your business unless you really like the job that you created for yourself.

How do you suggest that someone can maybe notice that they are now in this position that feels like they're obligated to be there, but they don't really want to be there.

Right? So for me.

Faith is a part of my journey. I mean, that's obvious. I was a pastor, and for me, I feel like there's purpose in what I do. I call it created purpose. What am I created to do? How can I operate in that for a season? I think web was exactly where I was supposed to be. Building the agency was exactly what I'm supposed to do. And that's awesome. That's great.

And then a grace removed, where things that were easy are no longer easy, things that were joy filled are now a dredge or difficult to do. And you get into a moment. I've always said, since Day one of starting the business, my chief calling is to love my clients. Well, if I'm doing that, I'm being an advocate for them. As a web developer, as a web designer, as an agency, we are trying to do what's best for them. In the moment in which I stop loving my clients is the moment that I look back and I say, this isn't where I'm supposed to be anymore. I am now operating out of obligation. When I'm trying to go, hey, I need to finish this project so I get paid, or I need to do this or that because of necessity or because I don't find the joy in it anymore, then that's not a place that I want to live. And so for me, I would say that's when I knew that I was walking in obligation instead of being in a place of really being in purpose and position of where I should be. And in that pivot, like I said, things that were easy got difficult. Things that were.

Enjoyable were no longer enjoyable. So that's basically, I think, the moment, you know, you're an obligation to the job you became. And that's the thing. I think a lot of entrepreneurs become a slave to their own creation.

It's like they created a job for themselves. Yeah, it's tough. And because I've been there. I know, Matt, you've been there, and in different business models and also in the same exact business. You know, as an agency, I did a ton of agency work, and I got into it because I love designing, you know, slides and presentations and videos. And then. And then, like you said, I started taking on clients because I was like, oh, that's going to pay me a lot of money. I don't really like that thing. It's going to be boring as hell.

So for people listening to this, then what is the solution or the suggestion if somebody's listening and going, you're describing me. I'm doing this out of obligation.

My head's not in the game anymore. What advice do you give to people that are in that scenario but don't know the next leap? I mean, they don't know what to do next.

Can I phone a friend on this?

You know, I'm a little bit in that. I've been saying for the last several months last year that one foot is in the future and one foot's in the path. The web stuff still pays the bills most of the time. And the future vision of where we're going as a business, what we're creating, that's what we know we need to step into to really flourish and become what we're created to be in this next season. The problem is, is that you have one foot in the future and one foot in the past. Neither of them will do well. One of them is at least going to be wounded by the divided attention. Most likely both will be impacted of that. So how do you navigate that? I think there's a couple questions to be asked. One, why are you in a place of obligation? Why have you lost your job or joy in this job that you have or entrepreneurial career you've created? Is it because you're working too much? Is it because you've lost your. The Simon Sinek thing? Have you lost your why? Why are you doing this? Is it more psychological? Is it more. You're just in the dredge and this is a season that will pass and you just need to push through it or just so that you're finding that you're getting the rest, you're getting the energy you need. You know, sometimes you just need to pivot that. If that's not the case, then I think what you have to do is start exploring the possibilities. Maybe for some people, they just need a season of sustainability and they need to step into a career or partnership for maybe a startup or something where they're not worried about the finances or they have a team around them to support the vision or whatever that is for them. And they just need to make that pivot to get recharged and re energized and refocused. The other thing is that in that journey, they need to get in relationship. Isolation is the death march of entrepreneurship, is what I always say. And so if you're isolated, you cannot get perspective on the situation. When you're in it, it's hard to see what's going on. So you need to step back and get that outside counsel to walk you through, hey, is this just a seasonal thing and you need to push through it? Is this a we need to change some stuff or something's really broken and get that perspective, get some coaching, get some accountability to walk through that season? I think those are the areas I would start.

It's so important. A lot of those points you mentioned there, if you're alone and you can't have that perspective of what's possible, we.

Deal with entrepreneurs like that all the time that for the longest time they were just kind of doing their business, googling whatever they could, but refused to ask for help, you know, and, you know, I think that's a pretty common Problem. Like, there's a giant support system out there that exists in friends and family and outside feedback that people very rarely tap into.

And it's the one foot, one in and out kind of thing. I know Matt and I are guilty. We're actually doing that right now with the Bitsys. We own multiple businesses and it is tough without the structure. And I'm a big believer of figuring out what you're really good at, like your actual core being of what you love doing. And yeah, if you're not the visionary type, then you may not want to be in that role because everything else is going to kind of be hindered by that.

Yeah. And I think perspective is the hardest thing to do. Well, of yourself.

You know, for me, there are areas, looking back over 10 years of running an agency, I go, I thought I was much better at this than I actually was. Or there are areas in which I could have done better.

And did do.

Better because I had a great coach who called out what he saw in me and said, hey, this is an area that you could just really kill it in. Just keep pushing into that, you know, and having that perspective. I think coaches and mentors are awesome. And I think a lot of people say to find the right coach, to find the right mentor, to find the right mastermind group, it's going to cost me a lot of money. And sometimes that's true. And that might be the hurdle, but that doesn't mean that you can't find someone that can walk with you in this journey.

That doesn't cost something. So if it's a financial thing, there are other outlets to help you through that process.

Sure. And accountability is a great first start. And that could literally just be your friend that even doesn't even know your business, but they're just checking in with you to make sure you did the thing you said you wanted to do.

Yeah. And I think a lot of times it comes back to nothing that you talk about in Masterminds, nothing that you talk about in peer groups or accountability or even coaching. None of it is usually earth shaking, world changing, like, oh, I didn't know that. What it is, it's intentional. And that whole thing of being intentional about it all of a sudden makes like, yeah, I know I should do that, but I don't know why I'm not doing that. And it walks you through that process of discovering and overcoming the objection of what's holding you back. Or maybe because you're in it, you're not taking the time to reflect and have perspective. And you go, these are all things I know. But now it's in front of me. Now I'm thinking about it, now I'm processing it. Now I can step into it.

Yeah. Or it could be validation for something that you've been mulling over and you just can't get your head out of it. Yeah. Perspective. It's. Yeah. Power masterminds, power of coaches, accountability partners, all that stuff. It's 100% needed for every single person on this planet, in my belief. Matt, anything on that? No, I mean, well, sorry. I was going to change it to something on the board here that we're curious about. We were talking about micro experiments, and this is something you said you're really big into right now, and we're curious to hear, like, what that is and what you've been doing with those.

All right, so if you have a dream or idea, what holds you back from making that happen? If you are an entrepreneur and you want to pivot your business or step into something, what is it that holds you back? Well, often it's a couple of different things. It could be fear, it could be time, it could be financial, it could be doubts of, like, is this.

A sustainable or an actual profitable endeavor I want to go into. So micro experiments are all about saying, often we think that we have to have all the answers when we start the journey. We have to know where we're going to arrive and what it looks like so we can then go on the journey to get there. And the truth of the matter is, is that's like the biggest lie in the world when it comes to entrepreneurship. What you think the idea and dream is now will evolve and change as you get into it. So if you have to figure it out now, you're never going to get started and you're never going to get down the road. Micro experiments is all about, like, what can we do to leverage our abilities, our resources, with the limited amount of liability to step into that journey. So a micro experiment is nothing more than saying, what can I do on a Saturday, in an hour to try this idea or dream or innovation in my business or pivot or product or service? I want to grow into.

Maybe your micro experiments. A week, maybe it's a month, but it can be as simple as a day or an hour. A great example of that is, like, let's say you have a.

New endeavor. Like, for me, one of the things that I thought, hey, I want to see if there's a market for a micro root beer, Birch Beer, Sarsaparilla Co. Is there are there people out there that would buy that product? So what I did is I created a one page splash page on a squarespace site that took me five minutes to build out. Put a cool logo there, said, hey, we're thinking, we're coming soon. If you're interested, sign up. I created a little newsletter. Sign up. The next thing I did is I ran a three day, I think it cost me $10.

Ad on.

Facebook. It was Facebook ad. And I just said, proof of concept. Is there interest? Okay, how many people saw this ad? How many people engaged with it and went to the website? And then how many people are willing to step in and say, I want to put my name where this is now what that did was it gave me a perspective to say, yes, there is interest. People are clicking. There is a smaller market of people that say, I'm willing to put my name down on this. And then it allowed me to say, okay, what would it take to do the next step in that process? Now I have a proof of concept, there is interest, there are people that want this. What do I do next? And then I create a new micro experiment and I continue on that journey of just iterating and growing. And you're going to fail. You learn from what you fail and you're going to succeed in some things. You learn from that and then you build on that to grow through to the idea and dream you have. So it makes it a tangible process that is affordable, that's easy to do, to move the needle forward and getting to where you want to go.

I like that. It's like making the most informed decision that you possibly can. But that form is usually like a minimum viable product, let's say, or tactic. If it's marketing, you can always apply these little incremental things that could be massive.

Well, and it takes the pressure of like a giant scope off of your mind as well. Right? Because if all you have to focus on right now is this one tiny little test and then the next test and the next test and the next test, you're not sitting there focused on what a monumental undertaking this project might be. You're focused on this micro thing that I got to deal with right now.

Right? And so I'm going to ask you guys a question. So if you are, you've been in the agency world, you've been in this environment, you've been around startups, you've been around client work, you know that space, just like I do. How many projects do you think never reached their full Potential because there was too much bloat and they didn't go into a simplistic process to figure out what was sustainable and what was actually needed to accomplish the project.

I would say almost 100%. Yeah.

I mean.

I always feel like there's a lot more potential in even the stuff we're currently doing.

Yeah, right. And so by overcomplicating over, bloating things, what we find in the development cycle, with working with big corporations and. And different agencies that we've worked with, different clients, small business to Fortune 100 clients, what we find is that most time, the simplest solution is the best solution. But people don't want that because they don't think it's good enough. The problem is, is that simple is usually what the customer wants. They just want somebody to say, here is a way to solve my problem. That's all they want. And if you can solve that problem, then you're going to have market share because there are a billion people solving most problems out there. The problem is, is that most people solving it are overcomplicating it for the customer. They just go, just make it easy for me. Just make it do what I need to do. I don't need, like the entire grocery store. I just need the one product. Give me what I need. Make it awesome. Make it fill the desire and the pain point, and let me get to the place that I can then flourish in what I'm doing. So micro experiments make simplicity the benchmark of the process. Because you can never do anything too big at that point because you have to go small.

Yeah, I actually love that because I feel like inherently, us entrepreneurs, if you have that kind of brain that you're just wired for this, you. You try to always innovate. You have this innovation, like, drive in you. At least I do. I feel like Matt and I both do. Where you have these new ideas. Let's do this. It's going to be amazing. Let's complicate it more and more and more. And maybe you don't even ever build a single thing, let alone. Yeah. With the simple approach, like you're saying here, the micro experiments. Just try this. All right, Little thing here. Let's do that. Like one thing, one goal for the week and just focus on that.

Well, we actually have a process. We call it the Dreamer's guide to Micro Experiments. And if you want, I can break down the micro experiment to make it five steps to make it super tangible for your listeners.

Definitely love it.

Okay, so some of this is based off of scientific experiments, scientific method just applied to entrepreneurs. So the first step is form a question or goal. What do you want to learn or achieve in this micro experiment? Ask a clear question, what do you want answered? What is the goal you want to reach? Just keep it simple, make it one pinpointed thing. That's step one. Step two, set a time limit both in when it will be completed by and how much time you're willing to invest in this micro experiment. So often we go, hey, we're going to get to this one day. I mean we're all guilty of that. And we never get to one day. It just sits on the shelf, we never get there. So, so you, you say for this micro experiment I want to set a short term time limit of an hour, a day, a weekend, a week or a month to try your experiment. Keep it as short as possible as this will help you stay focused and on task and set a dime a deadline for that so that you, you have to be completed by that and you have to, you're holding yourself accountable to that. Step three, run the experiment. It's time for you to get your hands dirty. No matter if you fail or succeed, it's not about like successful micro experiments, it's about learning and iterating and growing. So don't go in with the expectation that you're going to succeed or fail. Just go in with the expectation you're going to learn and just keep going with the experiment for the time limit you set. Document how it's worked, how it's failed. Let yourself have good perspective on what's going on through the process. Step four, stop and reflect. So often we move from thing to thing without ever actually looking back. And I have a saying that to move forward you have to look back. And in micro experiments it's so significant because if you're going to do this process well, you have to take that moment to say I'm not rushing off to the next micro experiment, I'm going to sit with it. And it doesn't have to be long for an hour for if it's a longer micro experiment, maybe a day. And process, write out as much as you can. And what did you learn from the experiment? What worked, what didn't, what did you enjoy about it? And I think often as entrepreneurs we forget about like the enjoyment and the hate factor because when we have a dream, we're just like, we have to get to the dream completion that we don't actually take stock of. Like do I actually like what I'm doing? Do I hate it? Then reflect on the experiment and make observations. And the final step is to rinse and repeat, continue the process, iterate on it, and then figure out what failed and see if you can adjust and tweak it so it works or what succeeded. How can you use that as a foundation for the next micro experiment in the process of the journey you're on? And then you just keep that cycle going. It becomes a lifestyle really, of entrepreneurship so that you're aware. And I think that's what micro experiments do. They make it tangible, they make it easy because it's short, it's quick to do, it gives you perspective, it gives you purpose, and it just is a sustainable process where so many of the processes out there today, you get into it like, you know, the story we always hear is hustle and grind, which is a load of bs. You know.

It'S not going to let you get you to your dream, it's going to burn you out. And I hate to tell you, if you're listening, like, Gary Vee is awesome, but he's not living that lifestyle. And so many of these entrepreneurs who are selling this lifestyle, they have a massive team behind them that makes it work and makes the appearance sell and they're working hard, but they're not living that lifestyle. And we need that perspective to say, what are they doing? Well, they're doing this kind of thing. They're making it tangible, they're making it realistic, they're making it so that this is sustainable.

Yeah.

Now with your micro experiments process, do you, at what point, are, at what point throughout the process, are you looking at the sort of macro level? Because I imagine at some point, let's say we want to kind of test a new industry. I would imagine you'd kind of have a bigger business plan and then kind of go, okay, what's the first micro experiment I can look at? So you know, are you kind of looking at the big picture at any point and sort of checking back in with the big picture? Are you only ever really focused on the micro experiments?

Okay, so there is an ancient word, it's a biblical word, ahrit, which means to think of the end result of your actions. Right. So micro experiments aren't saying like, just be so hyper focused, like, I'm a dreamer, I have big ideas. But what it's saying is like, have those, but then figure out the process to get to that and then just take the first step and then adjust as you're growing through that and then as you do that part of the reflection is saying, based on the new knowledge, because there's things you know, things you don't know.

Well, let me say that again. There are things you know, there are things you know you don't know, and then there's things you don't know you don't know. Right. And so in the process, you're going to be learning a lot through the micro experiments that may evolve the end Akhari goal, the goal you're building towards. And so when you're doing that assessment, when you're doing that reflection, you're thinking both at the micro level. But how does this micro experiment then impact the bigger picture? If you're not enjoying the journey and you go, I've always wanted to start a winery or a vineyard, let's say. And then you go and you work at a vineyard for a month to learn, and you go, I hate this. Well, then that's going to change your dream. You go, well, what I really want to do is make wine. I don't want to grow the grapes. Well, then now all of a sudden you go, well, that changes the end picture game. Now how do you evolve that? Well, the next thing would be like, hey, I'm going to go source the grapes. How can I learn how to do that? And then that might be your next experiment. Like you spend two hours researching on the Internet how to source grapes so you can create wine. Right. And so the goal is still there, but the goal, the end goal has evolved with the micro experiments. So it is both a micro and a macro throughout the entire process because all of that will impact the other.

Yeah, I like this. I'm almost like I'm trying to visualize this. Wish I was actually drawing this on a whiteboard, but where it looks like you have this end goal, let's call it. That's pretty dang specific, but the path is more or less kind of fuzzy because you don't know if it's gonna verify. Will veer around through these micro experiments.

And throughout the course of the micro experiments, that end point could move on you based on what you're like, the realizations you have through these micro experiments.

And then the in check in that you said with the like now you're always refining the path. It's like a ship to its destination. You know, it's the zigzag. Zigzag kind of approach.

Yeah. And I think most of the time entrepreneurs think that the destination will be arrived to, but the realization is, is that as you get into entrepreneurship, what you learn is that when you reach that goal, a new dream and a new idea, it could be an iteration on the original one has now grown. You never truly arrive to the end. Place of like, now I'm there, there's still a next step, there's still a next season of that dream and a new place that you flow towards. And so you know, what happens after you reach your goal, what happens next? How do you keep that sustainable? Like, how do you grow your business or market share if that's what you want to do? How do you keep it fresh? How do you do new things in that? Because that's part of the journey. And I think that often we're looking at the destination. When we get there, we go, well, this is it. Well, you got to stop thinking that way, like, hey, we're arriving at a destination. No, you're, you're hitting a milestone on a journey that's much larger. You just don't have the full picture of the next milestone until you hit that first milestone.

Yeah. And that's where it's feel like entrepreneurs. Yeah. Love the journey. But, you know, and that's why, like something like retirement, you know, for someone with a day job that doesn't have this fire, they don't mind the idea of just hanging it up. That's all that's my goal, is to retire, live a great life. Entrepreneurs, it's like, no, it's like a dirty word almost. It's like that, that's impossible. I don't understand what that means. Can't stop.

Well, I would disagree with that a little bit. And the reason is, and I don't mean to be contrarian, but how many people that you know have gone the traditional career path have said, one day when I'm retired, I'm going to do X, Y and Z.

I want to go buy a ranch, I want to go do this journey. I want to go, whatever that is their bucket list, right?

Yeah.

Well, all they're doing is you can apply the same principles. That is an entrepreneurial journey. It may not create revenue, but it is a journey of creation. It's a journey of dreaming. It's a journey of innovation and ideas. That's why we call it the Dreamer's Guide to Micro Experiments. Not the entrepreneur's guide is because anyone and everyone has a dream. That's what they were created to have a dream, a purpose, a place that they're going. And so these micro experiments apply across all spectrums. You could be a CEO of a corporation, you can apply this, you could be A person who works for a garbage company picking up trash. But what you're learning from that is for them, they're going, hey, I'm happy picking up trash because it allows me to have the lifestyle I want with my family, to take them on vacations, to have all the toys, do whatever I want. Now, they can still apply that dreamer's guide to where what is outside of the career that they've chosen because they still have dreams. And the job is a tool to reinforce those dreams. And so I would say that. That most people.

Are scared to live. They're not truly living alive. They are living scared. They are looking for.

A safe path. If I get the job and I have it, it's going to pay my bills, I'm going to be able to get a house, I'm going to pay for my insurance, I'm going to be able to go on. But the truth of the matter of that is that as we saw in 2008, as we're going to probably see again, and I would say three to five years, that career journey is not a safe journey anymore. It is not a sustainable journey for most people. How many people do you know that do the entire career life, their entire life, it just doesn't happen anymore. So this principle applies to everyone. And everyone has a dream. Everyone has a message to share. Share. We always say that you were created to change the world. Your world might be your family, it might be your community, it might be your city or your state or the nation or the world, but you were created for purpose, to do something that impacts the world around you. If we all started to live with that philosophy, that would change the very fiber. Fiber of where society is going. And people would be seeing much more joy, fulfillment and purpose in a direction of where they're going.

All right, I couldn't agree with you more. So thank you for that clarification. I love it. And I'll. Because this is something constantly Matt and I are talking about. It's like, oh, you know, people talk about the separation of personal life and business life. It's like, it's life, it's creation, it's having a great time and all these principles. You're exactly right. You just apply this to, like, say if you want to go to a crazy, you know, an amazing vacation with your family. Well, there you go. You got your end goal. Now let's dream it out with these micro experiments and get there.

Yeah, like, I want to go to Italy, let's say. Well, the first thing I have to figure out is how am I going to get there? Lots of micro experiment. Get online. I want to go to Tuscany. What does it take to go to Tuscany? How do I fly from here to there and then where do I go from there? Do I get on a train? Do I get in a car? How do I get from point B to point C? And then now I'm there, where do I stay? This is all a learning process. That's a micro experiment.

I love it. This is super cool. No, that excites me because I love these little, it's like bite sized chunks. It's all about momentum. That's the hardest damn thing ever is just get up or even go to Google something. As easy as that is. It's that whole mental block that a lot of people just don't take the first step.

Yeah. And we have a free guide people can download if they just go to jumblethink.com guides. We have a couple guides there. Micro Experiments is one of them. Download it. It's exactly what I just shared, but it's just a pretty graphic that shows it, I guess.

That's amazing.

Sweet. Now, what is an idea camp? I know we were kind of talking about this before we hit record and I said I was just going to wait until I hit record to find out what it even means. So can you go ahead and explain what an idea camp camp is?

Okay. So we just talked about micro experiments and I think that this is an exact explosion of that. So an idea camp is when you were a kid, you went to summer camp probably and you had experiences and they were fun and you build relationships and you dreamed and you talked and you shared stories. But as adults we never do that. So an idea camp is all about people who have dreams and ideas, whether that's an entrepreneurial one, whether it's their dream is to be a teacher or their dream is to start the next billion dollar startup. They want to be a unicorn builder, whatever that is, they have it and they just go. But I don't know where to start and I don't know how to have that conversation. An idea camp is a marriage of summit, of keynotes, of breakout sessions, topical sessions, masterminds, fun things we're going to have where people can come and try standup and we'll have some standup comedians there to be a part of that. We're going to have all kinds of pitch sessions where people can learn how to pitch, how to tell their story, how to tell their message, how to communicate their idea and the whole thing is it's three days long. It's going to be a lot of fun. It's going to be a lot of experience. It's going to be a lot of inspiration and learning. But what differentiates this from most things is that when you leave this event, you will have a roadmap for your next year. How can I move forward and make this dream a reality? What are the next steps and helping people have that clarity to say your dream is big, but it's not unattainable. There is a roadmap for you to get there and giving them the tools to walk through that process and say, now I can see the picture. Making the unknown parts known, making the fear of the unknown go away or at least manageable. Giving them tools to know how to ask the questions and ask for help and find the resources and build the team. You know, it starts with identity. Who are you? What's your personality? How are you bent? What are your.

Strengths and your weaknesses? And then how do you resource the coaches and mentors and team members? And how do you do a micro experiment and how do you put a business plan together? How do you do social media, marketing? All of these things are a part of this event. It's three days long and it's basically to help people go. We need people like you in the world and we want to help you on that journey. And it's a no pitch event. We just simply want people to come so that they have a roadmap for the future, so they can create the future they were created to live.

That sounds awesome. So it sounds like a perfect combination of pretty much everything we've been talking about, which a lot of it's community, it's support, Mastermind coaches, the micro experiments, of course, that whole process. I love the fact that you walk away with something tangible and this is just a cool exercise. Even if, you know, maybe someone doesn't attend your camp, they can try to do like a little mini camp with someone they trust. Mini Mastermind. This style, I love it.

Yeah. And we're super excited because for us it's been something that we've been dreaming about. Our passion at Jumbo Think is very simple. We want to help people reach their dreams. And so idea camps are an extension of that. That's the next season. The podcast was phase one. We're going to continue doing that. We have some crazy stuff planned for season three starting in February. We have some crazy guests coming on in season three that are lined up and idea camps are an extension of that. Where we get dirty, we get into the weeds of this. We make it a lot of fun, but we get you there so that you can do what you're created to do.

That's awesome. Now, the podcast and Jumble Think, I want to make sure we don't go too long on your end. Jumble Think. Let's talk about that and how that fits in with everything. Obviously, it seems, like, perfectly congruent with the idea camps. Micro experiments, Jumble Think. Yeah, talk about that, because I know you've grown that very. It's very popular and you have amazing people coming on. What's your structure? It sounds like you have seasons, so that's slightly different than most.

Yeah, well, I've gotten asked that a few times by other podcasters, like, why in the world do you do seasons? Like, you're an entrepreneurial podcast. You have episodes. It's not like seasonal, where it's like a serial or anything like that. It's very simple. It allows me to do micro experiments. It's applying it in real world. Season one was basically anyone that remotely looks like a guest that fits X, Y and Z criteria can be on. Great. That was micro experiment. I'm learning the process, learning how to do it. Somewhere along the line, we grew that became a little bit more focused, so we don't bring coaches or marketing experts on anymore. And then in season two, we start getting feedback from our audience. They're like, we love your podcast, but we want to hear more from you. So what we started to do is we pivoted so that we stopped doing just guest episodes. So now we do one guest episode a week and one topical episode a week, and people love it. And it shocked me because what I learned in that micro experiment, when I said, oh, you know what? I'm going to do a month of these. So one guest episode, one topical, is that our numbers on the topical were just as good, if not higher, in some weeks than the episodes. So I learned a lot from that micro experiment. So seasons allow me to make pivots. So season three's pivot. Season three's micro experiment is that we're going to try to do as many of the interviews as humanly possible in person, in video, and then offer the video out there, too, as part of the content that's available.

That is super cool. And just to piggyback on what you said, the solo episodes for you are, as we call them, duets.

Those are. So when we. Yeah, we're doting.

Do it. Ing.

I don't know. But the whole Point is, those have been very high requested by our listeners. Like those are the emails we see a lot of are, hey, we want more from you. What's behind the curtain? What are you guys thinking outside of an interview format like this? Something where Matt and I can just talk it out, kind of have a general concept and yeah, we've experienced the exact same thing that you're seeing on your end. Yeah.

And for me, the seasons allow me to have the freedom. Like we have a couple of experiments we're going to run next season that we haven't even told anyone about. Like we're going to do some topical episodes where we try to get some friends of ours from different spaces and just talk about a topic. Like we may just go in and say, let's talk about marketing. Get three of us together and just basically go at it and be like, why social media marketing is difficult, the benefits of it, the drawbacks of it, how you communicate your message, you know, things like that, where that's something we haven't done before. But I think it's an avenue that people will really enjoy to hear perspective, perspectives like that in a non interview setting, but more of a panel setting and have those conversations. So that's, you know, season three. We will throw those in and if they work well, then we'll keep them as we go throughout the entire season. If they don't, they'll just kind of fade into the distant memory of people. That's cool. And so that's why we do seasons, that's why we do these things so that we can have fun and experiment and try to always be better than we were the last time we did a podcast episode.

I love it. So our audience is actually, there's a lot of marketing and entrepreneurs and we actually do have few a quite, quite a bit of podcasters that listen to us as well. And I'm curious if there's been any sort of strategies or sort of pivotal points in your podcast that have, have really helped with the growth of it.

I think the biggest thing in the last year. That's a really hard question to answer because there's so many different touch points on that, on what could be said. But I think as you grow really understanding what your audience wants and communicating to them with episodes that really bring value to them. So for us in season three, we're getting hyper focused on the guests that we bring on and selective and in that I think that our audience will really connect with it and it will help us get back to our core vision of what we wanted to do with the podcast, which was interviewing dreamers, makers, innovators and influencers about their story of that journey. And for season one and season two, we started getting into the weeds with marketing people and with coaches. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just wasn't the DNA of what our audience was and who we were trying to reach and the story we were trying to tell. And so getting back to that identity of what we really wanted to create, because we get pitched like I get pitched probably five or ten people a day to be guests on the podcast. And now I'm coming back and I'm saying the people. So we have two podcasts now. We have Jumble Think and the B side. And the B side is an extension of the Jumble Think podcast. Um, much shorter format, but with the main Jumble Think podcast, you almost have to be invited to be on it now, because we want to select people that fit into the DNA of the story we want to tell. And so for us, that's where we're at. No, you can't be there necessarily day one and that. But remember your identity and what you're trying to communicate and stick with that. And don't let the fear of rejecting someone from being a guest or a fear of rejecting someone who really wants to be a part of it, dictate who you bring on and why you bring them on.

I think that's, yeah, being very selective. And I love that you said having your vision and it's being in, you know, basically true to yourself in why you even started this podcast in the first place or whatever business, you know, because like you said, it's almost becomes like that back to that obligation feeling. Just bring in anybody on your show that maybe it doesn't perfectly align and making that transition. I would imagine later on, if you really stuck that kind of course for a while, it's even more difficult to pivot.

Yeah, I think the two other things I would say that are very quick things. The first one was. And we hit on it a little bit, and I think you guys have the same kind of experiences. Don't forget to inject yourself into the episodes. Whether it's a standalone episode that's topical, whether it's just sharing a story, whether it's asking questions or putting your personality into the episode, make sure that you're doing that in the process. People listen. And this was at New Media Summit, Jim beach, who's another podcaster, radio guy, speaker, he said people come to the podcast for the host, not for the guests most of the time. That's why they're coming back every time, because they like the guests. They connect and relate with them. Um, so remember to let yourself shine in that, even if you're interviewing a guest, let you be part of that. And then the other thing is, is.

I just blanked. Well, that was good. So that was solid.

No, we've. We've been true. That's what Matt and I. That was the biggest turnaround when starting this podcast. We almost felt like we had to use a voice, a mask in a sense, to speak the way that we thought we had to. But we made a very conscious shift that was maybe, you know, after six months of doing that or so we're like, hold on, this doesn't feel right. And we just kind of let us be us. And it's completely changed everything about the show.

And we have had to get pickier and pickier about who we bring on as well. So that's definitely been a big focus and a big topic of discussion fairly recently, too, where we're kind of really discussing who we're going to allow on the show and who we're not. Because, you know, when we first started, we kind of tapped our network and our friends first, and then after that, we started tapping our network's network, you know, asking for referrals and stuff. And when we kind of got into that place, we got. We kind of flooded. We got flooded, and we kind of. There's episodes here and there that, you know, if we did. If we were there today, we wouldn't have done those same episodes, I think. So it's definitely been a learning process, and I think we're. We're pretty much on the same page with the way you feel about your podcast and the direction you're taking it in.

Definitely.

And I remember the other thing now, and I think it's really important, and that's. Don't wait to start. Just do it. It's going to suck. Just get over it, move on, Just keep doing it. And the other thing is, is that if I am relentless and the things that I do, that's probably a good and bad trait for me. Most people that start, you know, we talk about, in the podcasting space about Pod fade. The reality is, is just expect your first year to be bad. You're not going to get the numbers you want. You're not going to be as good as you think you're going to be. You're not going to reach people as much as you'd like. But go in for the long game. Play for the long game. We're three years in, and I'm just hitting where I wanted to be in year one, but if I would have given up, I would have never gotten to year three and I would not be reaching the goals that I wanted to be, that I'm reaching now. And so.

Just play for the long game. Don't give up. Just keep going. Be relentless. Be stupid.

So do you think that, like, the, the reason you, you have the download numbers and the sort of itunes rankings and things like that that you have today, do you think that's just. That's just pure persistence and just sticking with it and, and being, you know, being consistent with your release schedule and just staying with it?

Yeah, I think so. And of course, I've gotten better as I've gone along, or at least I hope I have. I don't want to listen to the early episodes. But anyway.

The thing is, is that I think I've grown. I've gotten better. I understand our audience better, they understand me better. And.

The reality is that people, there's so much noise out there, there's so many voices shouting for attention, that people who stay consistent and keep on the journey and keep doing better each time that they do it, their voices get heard eventually. And it may take a while. It may be three years, it may be five years. Just keep doing that. Just play for that long game and ask for perspective again. It's coming back to that coach, mentor, friends, have friends listen, have other people listen and tell. Let them tell you what they think and take the things that you like and that resonate. Don't be hurt by it. Just, you know, push through it and grow and keep on going.

Accept the feedback and analyze it afterwards and do something if it fits. Right. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's all great feedback.

Podcasts are just amazing because we've had way too many pod fades in the past where now sticking with this one is two years in or so.

It'S finally getting to a point where we're like, ah, okay, now we're rolling. You know, you finally get that momentum after a while because, yeah, it did suck at first in the previous shows that Matt and I did together, where.

Yeah, I mean, we've actually, we've been podcasting since 2010 across probably six shows, but this show is the one that's. I think we're approaching two years now, you know, 130something episodes. And we're not fading.

No, no, no. We're not going anywhere.

Well, this is a lot of awesome stuff and just want to be careful on time now, but sort of wrap things up. Was there anything that you felt like you wanted to touch on that we might have missed in this whole discussion here?

I think the simplest thing, and it's the heartbeat, my heartbeat, it's the heartbeat of jumbo. Think is that if you're listening, no matter where you're in at life, no matter the situations that you're facing, no matter what is going on, you were created for purpose. You were created for something significant. And significance is measured by. By what you leave behind in the decisions you make. And it doesn't have to be big. It doesn't have to be. You don't have to be Elon Musk, be you. Be who you were created to be, but choose to step into that and not buy into what you're told you should do or the lifestyle that's acceptable for you to have in this journey of creating. Create what you are supposed to create. Write the story that you're supposed to write. But if you don't, you're stealing from all of us. You're stealing from your family, you're stealing from your friends, your community, the global community. Because when you are not walking in the fullness of your created purpose, you are not offering the world what you were created to be here for. And so if you are 70, you still have so much time to do this, whether it's a day or a year to start moving forward. If you're 20, just start that journey, stay humble in that journey, but know that you were created for something so unique and special, and significance isn't what others people tell you it should be. Somebody asked me one time, how did you know that what you were doing was successful? And I said, when I chose to be successful. And the truth of the matter is that you get to paint and decide what that story is. So figure it out and step into that, because the world needs you. Your family needs you, your community needs you.

And you're not going to get it perfect. You're not going to get it right. Just keep on the journey, keep going, get there when you get there. But just one step today, one step tomorrow, another step the next day, and just keep on that journey.

I'm not even going to elaborate on that at all. It is amazing. Thank you for that. That was awesome. Michael. All right, so I know we didn't prep you totally on some final questions that we have for the podcast, but is there a book that you find reading often or one that you refer to people that you love and trust and business folks, whoever. Something that's left an impact on you. Yeah.

There's a book called the Dream Giver by Bruce Wilkinson, and it's about a journey of a character. It's allegorical, so in the vein of like a CS Lewis book or a token book or something like that. And it's about the journey of chasing dreams and ideas and the process that you go through through that. It's very similar to the Hero's journey that that's out there. And so that's a book that I highly recommend.

Cool. I haven't heard that one yet.

Love it.

It's a good one.

Cool.

Well, final question then.

Where.

Where do you want to send people to go learn more about you and what you're doing and your podcast? You know, what's. What's your. Your call to action for the listeners here?

Yeah, just go to jumblethink.com and you can find us right there.

Cool, man. This has been. I'm going to listen back to this and definitely take some notes because there's a lot that I know we can just reshape the way of how we just act every single day through these little micro experiments and ideas that you laid out. So thanks for your time, Michael. This has been super fun.

Hey, thanks so much for having me on. Really appreciated it.

All right, man. Have a good one. All right. Thank you. And I hope you just enjoyed this episode you just listened to now, right now, before we sign off, I have a few things I would love for you to do. So the very first thing is to go find our guest on Facebook and tell them that you loved their episode with us. That's going to. To help them just feel good about themselves, but also it's going to spread the word a little bit more for us. Go find them on Facebook. Everybody's on Facebook. And go say that you love their episode and maybe one cool thing that you learn there. The second thing is to go to itunes and subscribe to our podcast. Just look up Hustle and Flowchart and hit the subscribe button. And the very last thing, the third thing is to leave us a review on itunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast and help us spread the word more. That's how more people are going to get this awesome knowledge, this, this cool podcast training and a whole bunch of other cool, free training that we give out@evergreen profits.com. so that's about it. Go find them on Facebook, go subscribe on itunes and leave us a review. You would be amazing if you did that. But you're always amazing. So thanks for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.

You're awesome.