Paul Lemberg — How To 10x Your Company's Growth

This is an intro, intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Flowchart with your boy, my.

Boy, Matt Wolf, Joe Fear.

Hey, what's up, what's up? Matt Wolfe here. Welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast brought to you by evergreenprofits.com I'm here with my business partner, Joe Fear.

Wow, that was very robotic of you. Hi guys and gals. Today we're chatting with a buddy of ours that for me it goes kind of far back to this like networking thing way back in the day. But we also like to out at breweries together occasionally.

Once.

Once. And Paul actually didn't drink beer, but that's okay. He's cool enough to come out and hang out with us. His name is Paul Lindbergh. He's here in San Diego as well. And this dude actually, I mean, to be very honest, he's done a lot and we had no clue where the direction of this call was going to go. I know just from prior experience of working with him, hanging out with him, he grows any, really any size business, but he's grown multi, multimillion dollar businesses in the big corporate space all the way down to, you know, mom and pop type entrepreneurs and stuff. But 10x is kind of like a benchmark is what he's shooting for. But he's done well past that and it's really cool. He teaches some really, you know, actionable ways on how to do that and how to break it down.

And what I love too is that a lot of his concepts that he teaches on how to 10x a business are actually he makes them sound simple. He doesn't make it sound like some complex process. He makes it sound like a, like an attainable thing that pretty much anybody can accomplish. And I really like how he did that. But I do want to warn you, this is a very wide ranging, varying conversation. We go all over the place with him. We do get into really talking about business and how to scale up the business, but we actually start this conversation by talking about health and the ketogenic diet and, and then we sort of let it go from there. So it's a very fun conversation, very wide ranging conversation. But also you're going to get a ton of insights on how to grow and scale a business.

It's how to feel better, think clear and scale your business and live a better life. Good stuff to me.

All of the above.

All right, let's go hang out with Paul. All right, Paul, we're finally recording after your demands, man.

You know.

I'm honored And a little shocked, but go on.

No, we're just for the listeners. Really quick. We probably should have recorded the last, like, two minutes with Paul because, I mean, I was telling Madam, like, he's always. He's just fun to talk to, like, talk with. I mean, he's just. Time's gonna pass. I don't know what we're gonna talk about. Could be instruments, music, you know, handpans or basses. I don't know.

Oh, man, I want a handpad.

Me, too.

Why have handpads come up so much so recently?

Because they're awesomely cool.

That's why. And they're different. Like, they look like a ufo. And then you can make this amazing music out of it.

That's cool.

I don't know where the hell to find them, but, yeah.

Oh, they're easy to find. They're just like, 2,500 bucks.

They're freaking expensive. They're going more expensive because I heard it's like, rare metal or every single one is handmade.

They can't just do them with machines, you know?

Yeah, I don't think it's the nature of the metal. I think it's that they're really hard to make.

Okay, well, I know we have a mutual friend that they're available.

You can find them. I mean, you got to get on a waiting list usually, or you just buy one from somebody else because people buy them and I was going to say 500 bucks. I don't know what to do with this thing.

I was going to say there's a guy that we both know that I might not mention because I think it's about to go on sale. Who lives in Encinitas or Carlsbad Amish.

Who is selling his handbag. No.

Maybe. Yeah, I think I might try to get that from him. I'm like. Yeah, I know. The waiting list is long.

Hey, his office is around the corner from my house. I might just walk over there.

I think he just moved, actually, out of there.

Yeah, he's working out of a home office now, so.

Oh, did he. Did he ditch that place in Tech Center?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have. We have some other buddies over there, though. Paul Clifford and whatnot. But that's. Besides. But how are you doing, man?

Last time we saw you, we were drinking beer. Well, I don't actually. You weren't.

Now that I. I have not had a beer in a year and a half.

Yeah, that's right. But you came, which is really.

It's a sad thing, and it's one of the few things I actually miss.

Interesting. Really?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we could have.

I went like. Well, it's only been since June. I went full on keto. And, you know, it's funny because you're talking about systems. Yeah. What's cool about something like keto is the rules are very, very simple. And they're like. You know, most people who do diets, you know, or adopt a new way of eating, like, everybody has their exclusions, you know, well, I can eat this and it's okay if I just do that and so on. But keto is such a hack to your biochemistry, and it's a sensitive thing, so you can't cheat. If you cheat, you could end up blowing weeks of work because it takes time to get your body to burn ketones instead of glucose. The system is really simple. This is what you can do, and this is what you can't do. And it's black and white.

So I like things which are black and white because I don't have to apply any judgment to them.

That's so interesting, too, because literally before we jumped into this call with you, Joe and I were having a conversation about keto because my wife and I are about to start doing keto.

So, seriously, I know a ton about this, and if you have any questions at all, I mean, there's so much information out there. If you look at keto versus Paleo, Paleo is, like, the way it's treated out in the blog verse and in the Potterverse is sort of a joke because it's just all a matter of interpretation. Well, are we doing it based on macronutrients? Are we doing it based on trying to really rediscover ancestral eating? Are we doing it. But if it's dessert or if I'm on an airplane, it's okay. Yeah, it's like all that stuff. But keto is crystal freaking clear and how it works is fully understood. So, like I said, there's no judgment involved. You just say these are the rules and what's cool about it, Matt. So I don't know how much you dug into this. I will tell you. Here's the benefit. I lose weight without trying to. I wasn't trying to lose weight when I started it, but since I started, I am down what looks like permanently about 14 pounds, which is fine, because if I look any skinnier.

Yeah. I'm like, you're not. You're not overweight, man.

No, no, no, no. And nor was I trying. Yeah. This is just what happened. I went from a size 36 pants to a 32, which I haven't worn since I was probably 23 years old. And they're a little loose.

Wow.

But here's the amazing part. You have energy all the time and it never stops. And then this is the amazing part, is I've actually gotten a little smarter.

Your brain works better on ketones, and mine absolutely works better on ketones. It's amazing.

So are you a butter coffee guy in the morning?

Yes, I am.

I'm actually drinking that right now.

I found the source for the. Again, I'm a systems kind of guy, so I tested a lot of ghee's and I found like the most amazing ghee of all time.

Oh, what is it?

I'll give them. It's called Pure Traditions. I probably shouldn't even say this because they have a limited supply. It's pure traditions. Brown butter ghee. It's grass fed, it's burnt, so it's a little caramelized, it tastes a little sweet and it's amazing.

Interesting.

All right, well, now we're going to sell it all out because of our massive, massive podcast listeners.

I know, as I started to say, I'm worried it's like telling people to go to Bruce, don't tell them that.

Or like Tim Ferriss, where we just sell everything out. No. So in a quick, like, synopsis, because I'm actually curious now, because I know bits and pieces of keto stuff, but is there like a fast, like two minute blurb of like, this is so.

Not where we thought this podcast was going, but I love it anyway.

Yeah, yeah. So keto's really easy. So here's how it works. Basically, most of your body runs on glucose, and whether it was designed to run on glucose or not, there are arguments about this. But most of your body runs on glucose most of the time. Except your heart. Your heart needs ketones no matter what. And your brain uses up a huge amount of glucose from your body, even though it's small relative to the rest of it. Ketosis occurs when you starve your body of glucose. So normally, Joe, if you're a typical glucose burning kind of guy, if you don't eat enough glucose coming in and there's not enough glucose in your bloodstream, your body will try to make it out of whatever it can and it'll start.

You'll start consuming muscle because it's easy for your liver to turn protein into glucose. So that's where it's going to start. So if you starve yourself, basically, you're going to get weaker, you're also going to feel hungry because your system is craving glucose. So you're going to want to eat things. And that used to drive me to seek out sweet things all the time. But basically you have cycles. And then if you have any kind of insulin dysfunction or glucose metabolism dysfunction, some people will drop down into.

Into low blood sugar, which for me would make me spacey. I'd get spacey, I'd even get a little bit of dizzy sometimes. You'll get very tired. All sorts of crazy things happen. Flip that around. You eat a whole batch of glucose and all of a sudden your system is flooded with insulin, which is, by the way, if you eat a big bowl of pasta for lunch, what makes you tired is not the pasta. What makes you tired is you've got this insulin rush, which definitely makes you feel dopey and so on.

Oh, yeah.

So your basic human is not eating steadily. See sawing all the time. So now if you starve yourself of glucose long enough, which can take days to weeks, could take a couple of days. It could take you a couple weeks. If you starve your body of glucose and you feed it a lot of fat, right? Just fat of any, you know, any kind. Ideally good fat, because bad fat has its own problems. But if you start feeding your body a lot of fat and no glucose, your body gets the message. It's like, oh, we're not going to be able to burn that glucose stuff. But in the fat, you can burn fat. And as a derivative of fat, part of the byproduct of the metabolism, fat is you produce these things called ketone bodies or ketones, and your body can run just fine on ketones. And it has an amazing benefit, which is there's no up or down on whether or not you have fat to burn. Because any basic normal male who's not like obese, but say a normal sized male has about 80 days worth of calories stored in the fat all over your body. Wow. So if you don't eat, and I frequently don't eat because I kind of lost interest in food.

If you don't eat, your body goes, well, I got plenty of this stuff lying around. So it just starts metabolizing the fat from various parts of your body and you're never, ever, ever, like ever hungry. And your energy never drops because you have this steady, nonstop source of energy. You also don't get that whipsaw feeling because your body doesn't use insulin. In the process of extracting fat from your body. Insulin Is for. One of the things it does is it puts fat into your body, but it doesn't take it out. So amazing stuff happens. And then.

Your brain prefers glucose in the sense of that glucose is easier to deal with. But your brain, in particular runs better on ketones.

Yes.

There is no doubt about this thing. Once you hit ketosis, you'll notice it that you stop forgetting the things that you were forgetting. You're sharper. At least for me, I'm sharper, I'm faster.

It's better in every way, and it starts to be noticeable. So it's really neat. I mean, the simple thing is.

Matt, my advice to you is get a scale and become familiar with what amounts of food are worth in terms of glucose.

Food scale.

You don't have to be obsessive about it. I am not obsessive about it. I find weighing food depressing, so I won't do it. But again, because I'm a little bit of a systems guy.

Like I said, well, all right. How many of these nuts is really a quarter cup? I don't know what a quarter cup looks like, but I take the scale, I drop a bunch of pecans on it until I get to 30 grams, then, okay, I know what that's worth. And so you just sort of look at the stuff that you eat habitually and you get a sense of it visually, and then you just stay inside those parameters. I love it. The one other thing that's tricky about ketosis, if you don't catch it, is if you eat too much. Your body needs a certain amount of protein, which it uses for basically maintenance and reconstruction. You can't grow muscle. You can't pack on muscle if you don't have enough protein. You can't even fix the muscles you've got if you don't have enough protein. You need it for all your organs. You need it for everything. Like, you don't need a single gram of carbohydrates. None. But you do need protein, and you need enough of it. So there's various ways to calculate how much you need, but if you go way over that number, and I used to. I was living on steak, right? I was living on, like, you know, pure meat at one point, and it wasn't working. So what I didn't know, and it took me reading it about seven or eight times before I decided it might be true, is your body is very good. Your liver will take the excess protein that you eat, and without fail, it takes the protein it goes through your liver and it breaks it down and turns it into glucose. So if you're overeating protein, you have a ready source of glucose in your body, and it'll keep you from going into keto Ketosis.

Interesting.

So that's the one thing that isn't. I don't think it's stressed enough that you just get a handle on it. Okay, I'm this big. I have this much muscle versus this much fat. I got this much lean muscle mass. And you multiply that by whatever the number is you've chosen. There's different numbers.

Now, that's interesting. It makes me wonder if a lot of the people that don't have success with strictly Paleo, that's sort of the reason, because most of the people that I know that do Paleo, it's just, how much protein could I stuff into my body, you know?

Yes. That will keep you from going into ketosis. Yeah, it absolutely will. Paleo is not about being in ketosis. Paleo is really just, you know, if you look at it is about reducing the processed foods that you eat, which is a big deal. And if you reduce the processed food you eat, you automatically become healthier.

Oh, for sure.

Right. So it's about reducing that and then dramatically cutting the amount of carbs you eat, which is never a good thing, but, like, having a whole ton of carbs in your system. And there's other things, like if you eat a bunch of fat, like saturated fat, like, if you eat a lot of meat and cheese and butter and stuff like that, that's not harmful in and of itself. But if you mix that with also having a lot of glucose floating around in your system, excess glucose is just like rust. So you know how metal doesn't rust? Oh, yeah. But except in the presence of oxygen. Right. So the metal, you know, if you have iron at it and you flood it with oxygen, it oxidizes, it rusts, and it basically turns to shit. So the excess glucose in your body that's floating around in your bloodstream, because it's got nowhere to go, what it does is it attaches itself. It gets sticky. And it attaches itself to any protein at all inside of your body, typically starting with the smaller things first, small capillaries and so on. But the glucose attaches to the protein, a process called. I don't know if I pronounced this right, I call it glycation. It might be glycation. Glycation is like rust in your body, and it starts distorting and eating away at your various protein structures, at your various tissues. And that's what causes the damage. So it's kind of like. It's almost like oxidizing it and it gets sticky, and that's the thing that causes heart problems.

Gotcha.

Interesting.

So it's like there's a whole lot of stuff, like, slammed together in this. The rules of keto are so simple. That's why I love it. It's simple. Anyone could do it. And what'd you say about starting a radio show, Joe?

Yeah, I know, right?

You gotta have a purpose.

Oh, yes, yes.

So if you're purposeful about it, it's amazing in terms of what it proves for health.

100% man.

Now, does it have a positive impact on your sleep as well?

Not for me, no. No, I don't need a lot of sleep. I wish I needed more because I keep reading about how sleep is good no matter what, but I don't need more than I get. So, no, it hasn't helped me.

Got it.

That's all right. But if you're heavy, if you're heavier than you want to be, you do keto for a few months, your weight drops automatically and stabilizes at a lower number. That automatically helps people sleep.

Yeah, I think that's an inherent benefit, for sure. It's funny, and I don't think I've ever mentioned it to you, but I've always thought it since the time I met you, Anthony Bourdain. I'm like, man, has anybody ever called you Anthony Bourdain or said you look like him weekly? I know, it's like, two. Damn. It's probably like an old joke, but it's just funny. I was like, that's just funny that you're saying you're not. You don't really like food anymore. You don't desire it. And I'm like, damn, that you look like the biggest foodie around.

Well, you know, I mean, like, that's. It's a problem because I used to. I mean, I love food, and I used to be more of an epicure, and now it's my interest in food. Just, like, I don't really care, and it's not because I don't still like it. And if I go out for a good meal, I enjoy it, and if I eat something good, I enjoy it. But something about the keto process just had me like, I don't need it ever. There's no metabolism driving me to seek out food, which I think is like. I think people who are dysfunctionally big, I don't know what we're Supposed to say, who are bad. Dysfunctionally big.

That's a new one.

Those people are eating for other reasons than biology.

Sure.

Right. That's just the bottom line.

Yeah.

They've somehow short circuited the mechanism, which is, you know, tells you to be hungry. They just eat when they eat and, you know, it becomes habit. But if you listen to your body and your body tells you when you're hungry and then you're driven to seek out. But at keto, you're never hungry. So I am never driven to eat because of hunger.

That makes sense. I mean, that's. And I just. I just imagine. Sorry. We're like Anthony Bourdain in your picture next to each other.

Yeah, no, it's funn. Anthony Bourdain used to run a restaurant called Les Al that was on park avenue South between 29th and 28th Street. And I lived on the corner of 29th and Park Avenue South. And so with. I was pretty regularly. I used to eat there. And it turns out he was the chef when I was eating there.

Oh, that's cool.

And I never met him. No one ever mistook me for him.

Yeah.

Now it happens a lot.

That's funny.

Pretty funny. Yeah. He's a cool guy. I wouldn't mind having his gig.

Oh, I know, right? I'm like, I just love his shows. But that's a side topic.

We won't go down.

Everything's a side topic. I know.

Let's actually.

What do you really want to talk about?

Let's go to where we normally start and learn a little bit about you. Let our audience kind of know who you are and how you got into business and what you're doing now.

Okay, like you really want to know how I got into business? All right, here's how. I have a fine arts degree in photography. And I thought I was going to be an artist, and I wasn't a really good artist. I was a starving artist for about two years. You know, classic starving art deal. And. And then one day it occurred to me that this wasn't going to work out this way. And so I said, all right, so what am I going to be? And somebody said to me, and I can't even tell you who at this point, and there's a whole story there, but somebody said to me, go be a computer programmer. Anyone can do it. And that's not true, but it just happened to be true for me. I had no experience, I had no training, I had nothing. And somehow I got myself a job on a help desk as an analyst on a help desk and quickly turned into a programmer and software design. I worked for this company for eight months. They told me I was the best person they had ever had in the position and I was never going to fit into their culture. So they actually got me my next job and I worked for General Electric for a couple of years. Learned a ton. Learned how to be out in public, learned how to wear a suit, all that sort of stuff. And also learned that I absolutely didn't fit well into corporate politics and that that was never going to work out. So I spent a couple of years there and then it's like, okay, what am I going to do? I just had no idea like how is this ever going to happen? And I didn't have. There's no entrepreneurs in my family. My parents didn't really understand anything like that. They were working people. And I just kind of said well, I think I got to start a business. And a guy who had been my client and I just wait. We jumped and took $3,000 of credit card debt and started a. What became a software company. You know like most software companies started out as a consultant. So we were consultants and we were consulting with people in the international banking world. And so we ended up. He was the. He was the banking brain, so to speak. He'd spent like a year in a bank. And then we had a partner was the sales guy and. And then I was the tech guy and we just started building projects for people and did that for a while and. And our projects evolved into a product that serviced basically my software ran the farm branch networks of some of the largest European banks in the world.

Wow.

And so for. It was great. So I traveled all over the world and started selling this thing and we made a bunch of money. We're terrible business guys. That business was completely bankrupt and we sold it. And the moral of that story is that if you have a totally kick ass product that's better than anything out there, you actually don't know how. You don't need to know how to run a business. And you can make money.

That's a very cool point.

If we actually knew what we were doing, we would have made a lot more. And I never understood it because those guys could have stolen our company. We owed a million dollars to the irs. We really had done everything wrong. And these guys came along and made us a really generous and fair offer.

Wow.

So I worked for that company for a year. They eventually fired me. No surprise. I took about a year and a half off because I Had a non compete and at one point they broke the non compete, started another company, went back into the same business and eventually sold that company to a German bank. So I had two software companies under my belt by the time I was 35. And I then did a bunch of consulting, high level stuff for big companies like Dell and IBM and Texas Instruments and Anderson Consulting. And you know, some guys are around, some aren't. Did that. And in the middle of the 90s, in 1995, I woke up one day and I was like.

I really don't care about big corporations. I don't care about, you know, if you take IBM and add $100 million to their bottom line. I saved IBM $500 million with a piece of research that they asked me to do.

I did some work at Cisco where we added 100 million bucks to the bottom line. And they don't really care. I mean, you know, you might get a commendation or a promotion or you might get fired. The guy I was working with got fired.

Wow.

So it was like, okay, I don't really care about these things. And I just decided that I cared about entrepreneurs. So I took everything I knew up till that point and decided that I could be like, I could be McKinsey, but for a small business.

Sure, sure.

And that was my vision at the time. There weren't a lot of business coaches. There wasn't even a thing called that. And I just decided that's what I could do. So I started hanging. I hung out my shingle as a business coach, which nobody knew what that was. And I made a ridiculous promise. I stood up there, like wherever I could, I stood up and I said, so I will help you grow your business faster than you ever thought possible. We will make you more money along the way and you're going to have more fun doing it. And I guarantee it. And people say, like, how can you guarantee that? Because the truth is, I knew nothing.

They were like, they were like, how can you guarantee it? And it was like straight out of Tony Robbins, I would just tap myself on the chest and say, nodding my head up and down, going, I'm that good.

We got this.

I love it, man.

That's how I got into it.

Well, I just love how you made that shift. You just realized you're like, you know what? These big companies don't give a shit. And a thanks is, oh, well, you just made yourself obstacles elite. You're fired as one option.

It's also like a real driver for me was how it impacted people's lives.

You add several million dollars, a bunch of millions of dollars to a multi billion dollar entity and it doesn't move the needle very much. Maybe you added a penny to the stock and that's worth something, but it's not worth a lot. Whereas if, if you have somebody who has a half a million dollar business and you get them to a $2 million business, you probably change their lives in many, many ways, as well as all their family and all the people around them and everything. And, and you know, the same as you take somebody with a $50,000 business and you who are scraping by, you know, or even 100k business, you have to pay your expenses, there's not a whole lot to live on. And you help somebody turn that into a half a million dollar business, like a 10x over the 50k, you've transformed their life. You turn it into a million dollar business, it's like, wow. And then maybe you get them to be a $5 million business because they're really committed and they're busting their butt and everything's different forever and ever and ever. So I dig that.

I love it. And that's it. It's kind of. We're at a workshop and someone was talking about how one of the roadblocks are to basically grow their business bigger than just them because they don't want to have to deal with all the other stuff. But it was kind of a mind shift that this is kind of that kind of workshop. And it was like, okay, but think of the lives that a business owner affects. Every time you hire someone new on your team, you grow your business a little, you know, slightly more. But then you hire a project manager or even if it's an outsourced person. Just imagine the lives you're affecting and the fact that you come in and now it's like, okay, let's ramp it up. Where whatever it might be now, you just added maybe a few more people to the team and that's a few more lives that now can be trickled. And it's kind of that ripple effect all the way through.

I'm in the middle of a negotiation for a contract and these guys are a quarter of a billion dollar business and their goal to be the guy, the owner's next goal is to be a billion. And it's real. I mean that's not such a big deal, you know, when you only have to grow forex.

That's true.

It's not that big. It's not like when you're starting out and you're making like 75 bucks and you go I want to be a billion dollar business. Like your odds of doing that close to zero. Right. Nobody sets out from scratch to build a billion dollar business. I don't know anybody who says that's what they started to do. No one.

Right.

People who start, who set out to do that never get there. At least in my experience. But if you're at a quarter billion it's 4x. How freaking hard is that? It's just not that hard if you stay on point. But the impact I said we were talking about it over lunch last week and I said here's what I want to do. I want to create a comp program where the senior team, the actual leaders of the business units will like. What we can guarantee them is that if we hit those numbers they're going to get paid enough compensation. I'm not talking about a liquidity event. I'm not talking about options. I'm talking about their comp in cash is going to be enough to free them for the rest of their lives.

Wow.

I mean look, I'm not saying it's going to make them billionaires. They're not going to get like 100x pop on their options because nobody's ever selling that company. There's no liquidity in it. But that we can afford to pay them a few million bucks which if you keep that few million in the bank somewhere, so to speak then you know, you, everything you do is by choice.

I mean like it's all by choice anyway. But now it's choice freed from the fetters of having to make money so your kids go to college or you know, for whatever. You know, so you can take care of your parents or whatever it is.

I love it. Yeah. What's that purpose behind the business, behind the growth and all that. And I remember when you and I chatted, I don't know, a couple months ago or so you're talking about and I think it was 10x. You usually shoot to 10x a business whatever your think it was a half million dollar businesses are typically what you're working with. It could be totally wrong but. But instead of jumping straight to 10x you do you double, you double, you double. You know, it's this constant, you know, or maybe it's even a little less.

Than that but it's actually it's a tad more. It's 2.16 to the third power. So it's two point. So if you like you grow them the first iteration to 2.16 then you do it again. Then you do it again. Yeah, that's a 10x. That's like. I mean, to me, that's freaking profound. I love it because I have no idea how to 10x a business. Well, I could 10 times their traffic, but I might also wipe out their profits forever.

Sure.

Or, you know, I mean, maybe it's easy to 10. It depends on the business. You know, Right now I'm doing something different for me, which is I'm about to launch a program which is designed for people who speak small. Solopreneurs, 50 to 100k. Now, it'll work just as well for somebody doing a million and there's actually no difference at all. But my intention is I want to give guys who are guys, men, women, who are solopreneurs, consultants, coaches, other professional services companies, and to give them a clear cut pass of going from that hundred K, which is, I know that, you know, if you're in the Philippines, that's a lot of money, but if you're in San Diego, you're just scraping by.

Sure, sure.

And, you know, and you're. And so the idea that there's a roadmap to take that to 10 times what you've got now or even five times. That's awesome.

Oh, yeah.

The program is designed to walk people through a series of transformations that will reliably allow them to grow. If you promise someone 10x and you get them 2x, it's not bad. Sure, you promise them 10x and they get 3x, even better. 5x, even better. But the process really reliably can get you to 10x. Yeah.

And that's similar to what Matt and I offered and we kind of backed off of it now, just like people. But roadmaps, you even mentioned roadmaps, is, you know, instead of doing this group coaching, you know, we've done a lot of, you know, physical newsletters and whatnot. But it's really honing in on someone's goals. So, like, what are their goals in the next, you know, three to six months. Let's just work with something manageable and let's try to achieve those goals. And it's kind of like what you're saying here. Let's give them a roadmap or instruction manual on what to follow to achieve that blip in time there and then compound from there. Re evaluate where are you? And then now let's set out the roadmap from that point on and then kind of keep doing that.

You know, in the theme of system, if all you do. I mean this is like, this is the simplest truth of all, which is if all you do is benchmark where you are set a goal for the future that you have a big commitment to and then have a way to measure progress, not from rearward looking like here were the numbers we hit, but forward looking like here are the actions we have to take to get there. And of course you're measuring the result as well because that would be moronic not to. But you're measuring the result and you're measuring the actions and you just continually check in. I used to do the simplest thing and it grew people's businesses just by doing this is I draw a graph. And it was a simple graph all the way on the left, it was at zero or whatever, adjusted to zero and all the way on the right was where the goal was. And Maybe it was six months, maybe it was 12 months, but it was divided up into weeks. And every week you drew on the graph where you were. So you were either above or. Because all that line represented was where you were supposed to be in terms of your output revenue by where you were on the timeline. And so at any moment in time you were either above or below the timeline. And you look at it, well, if you're above the timeline, fine, just keep doing what you're doing. But if you're below the timeline, it's like, dude, you're off the timeline, we got to push that number up. And then you just ask the question, well, okay, what would push the number up? And if that is the only thing that you do, you can get mind boggling results. And that's, I would imagine asking the.

Question, yeah, like what do we do? And that's one of the biggest things we deal with, with you know, people that are kind of, you know, Maybe they have 100k business, but also a million plus business is always focus. And it's like, okay, cool, we have a plan and all that. But we constantly hear, you know, during these check ins it's like, oh man, it's so hard to just focus on this. Like, I want to try this.

And so the thing. But there's a secret to that.

Yeah, yeah.

Which is if you just keep tying them back into their goals. You know, to me that's the beauty. The beauty. It's like what we started out by talking about keto, like the beauty of keto is you don't have to think about it. You say it's black or it's white, it's this or it's that. And if it's this, it's like, cool, we can do it. If it's that, no, I can't touch that stuff. Right. And it's the same thing. Like, here's my favorite. My favorite is you're running an online. You're running, say, a Facebook marketing program, or you're running native ads, or however you're driving your traffic. And then some really good sales guy from the local TV station hooks up with your client and pitches them on some deal where he's going to spend 50,000 bucks minimum that he can't test. Right. You cannot test, like at 5,000. You can't test that 500. You can only test at 50,000. So now the guy's ready to commit, like, for multiple $50,000 throws to be on TV. And I'm like, why are you doing that? How are you going to measure it? And what purpose is it going to serve? And why do you think that's better than what we're already doing? And it's like, oh, okay, yeah, no, maybe it isn't good.

Yeah.

And it's like, it's so easy to get distracted because that's a sales guy's job, is to distract you, especially when.

You live in the marketing community. Or you just, like, you're inundated with all these emails. You're just like, good luck, man. You gotta definitely keep them on a short leash.

Yeah. And the more you market, the more you attract people who are selling marketing.

Sure.

That's definitely a very. That's why we're getting. That's why we shift away into different niches now. And what we're doing for sure now.

Are there, Are there any, Are there any systems that you can think of that you, you, you pretty much use anytime you go in and work with a business? Any. Is there anything like. That's like a common recurring. Okay, let's go plug this into this business. And you just, you find that almost every business needs it.

So the simplest thing, the absolute simplest thing is what I was talking about before, which is plugging in a dashboard. To me, that all by itself again, without making any other changes to the business. Adding a dashboard that reflects not just results, because all results tell you is that the things you did didn't get you where you wanted to go or that did. Or maybe it doesn't even tell you that. Maybe your results tell you that Mercury is finally out of retrograde and moving in the normal way again. It's like, who knows what it's going to be? You're Saying tinnitus dashboard, which measures, if you look at what that I call them critical points of leverage. If you look at what are the leverage points in the business and we know that every business that we ever encounter, like I'm not talking about a Main street retail, but every online business that we encounter has as its points of leverage its traffic sources. You know, the number of people coming into your system and what you do to convert them. You know, it also there's other critical points of leverage.

Right?

But it's like every single business.

I'm almost never walking into a company that has a solid dashboard, they measure things, but people measure, people mostly measures, they mostly measure revenue. Maybe they measure new customers, but rarely can I get a straight answer from a client when I first walked in the door on what's their long term customer value? Can't do it because they don't know.

Ask them what it cost them to get a new customer, they don't know. They may know their lead cost but they never think it all the way through like well what the customer cost me. And we know you put those two things together. That's the secret to having your marketing blow through the door. But the thing that, the one thing, Matt, that I'd say that everyone needs is they all need a dashboard that is reflecting the forward looking measurements. So what tells us what a predictive, what tells us what's the company's going to be doing in one month, two months, three months And a dashboard that measures those forward things for each of the critical points of leverage. If you do that then everything else is we just, you know, the machine tells us what we need to do next. So that's the one thing that I find is universally it changes everyone.

Right. Now when you say dashboard, are you talking about some sort of like online software tool like an Excel spreadsheet that you're constantly keeping tabs on? I mean what do you tend to use?

So there's all sorts of cool software out there to create beautiful looking dashboards that I don't do any of it. To me that's just like a waste time. It's not a bad idea and they're cool, but it's just not where I put my attention. I think an Excel spreadsheet which is as close to manual as you can get is fine. And I don't care if the data is input by all sorts of fancy API bridges and zapier. And if this then that it's like you could do it that way or you could pay an intern to Keep track of the data. It doesn't matter.

Yeah. And that's it. And Matt's actually pulling up ours right now because we do have a dashboard. We track all sorts of different metrics. I think the thing that we lack, and I think a lot of people lack is that forward looking, like, hey, because, I mean, we have our goals, but at the end of the day, maybe there's a question of, like, okay, well, am I shooting my goal too high? Like, is this not. Or, you know, is it too low? And obviously, you know, creating that bridge to get to that point, I guess. How do you work or how do you figure out someone's goal, you know, from when you first start looking at their business?

I'm driven a lot by what people want.

Yeah. It's just what they want. Yeah.

I had a client when I was first. So my first foray into being a coach and advisor was I'd work with anybody because I needed to create a business. Three weeks after I quit this wonderful job I had, I found out that my wife was pregnant with our first child. So it was like, okay, that was awesome. Because the timing, had it been reversed, I might not have quit. Sure, I might have felt the weight of the obligation, but instead, I got to quit feeling very carefree at the moment and. And then found out that I had to do something for real. So when I segued into then, for a long time, I specialized in software companies. And one of my first software clients was a guy in Portland, Maine, whose offices were right across the street from Marina. And he said he wanted to take his business. His business was doing, I don't know, sub, a million. No, no, that's not true. It was doing a little more than a million, and he wanted to take it to 4 million. And I signed down and said, sure. But I was curious, like, why not more? And it was at a time in my life when I really did believe that more is better. I don't now, but I did then. And I was like, how come only 4 million? I said, we could take this thing to wherever. And so he says, come here. And he calls me out of the window, and he points across at the boats and he says, see that one on that fourth slip? The blue sailboat on the third one out? I said, yeah. He says, that's mine. And I don't spend enough time on it already. And I'm sure that if I hit 4 million, I'll have enough money than I'll ever personally need. And I want to spend more time on my Boat. So we played for 4 million and I got him to that number. And then we were literally done because he'd gotten there, he was happy. I've had other clients who say to me, I need to stop doing the work. My goal is to get myself out of it and make this much money. And then I have other clients who say they want to build a billion dollar business. And I do my best to talk them out of that because that's just a stupid goal, especially when you're just starting out. But no, the short answer for me is I don't have a lot of opinion about people's goals, except if I think they're kind of weenie goals.

Got it? Yeah.

Yeah, you can hit that pretty easily. Yeah, that's not very interesting, but okay. I err on the side of, let's, let's go big. You know, what, what would really light you on fire? And they go, well, I don't know if I can do it. It's like, who cares?

Let's try.

This is really important for me, which is that it's. I don't. I'm very much a guy who's into the journey and not the destination. I want some of the destination points, but that is not my goal. I do not believe that's why I was put on earth so that I could achieve a certain amount of wealth and, you know, own this much stuff and all that. I don't care. That doesn't mean I don't like money and spend it freely. But my motivation is not to say that I should have this much and then I can consider that I'm winning. So I think the real thing is, you know, when you set big goals for yourself and they're not just about the money, but. And they could, you know, look, there are people that, that's just it. They want more money in the bank. But other people, like, they're looking to transform the world, you know, well, why do you want that? And, oh, you know, so that I can do what I want to do. Well, why do you want to do what I want to do? I once had a guy tell me that he needed to reach a certain amount of money because he wanted to give the rest of his life over to the church. And he wanted to be able to support his family in the style to which they'd signed on for. And he wanted to do that without working anymore. So his goals were based on that. People have all sorts of reasons, but the thing is, the goal. The goal calls you forth. The goal should be Something that transforms you. The goal should be something that when you got there or anywhere close to it or even on the right path to getting there, it made you the person you wanted to be in life.

I love it.

That's the important part to me. And if it's not doing that, it's bullshit. Why are you doing it?

That's it. There's so many people. And I know we've. Back in the day, Matt and I were guilty of this, but that's why we radically shifted our business to what we wanted to. What we actually like to do every single day. And I think it starts from, you know, how do you want to live that day? Every single damn day. And maybe you're not quite there yet, but, okay, well, maybe your goal is that accumulation of what's needed. So maybe it's buying back your time so you have to hire some people. Maybe you want that new house, maybe you don't. You know, maybe it's not physical stuff at all, but it's time. So I guess figure out what that goal would be to allow you to buy that time back.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like we literally had a conversation at one point that said, all right, what kind of lifestyle do we want to live? Okay, cool. Now that we know how we want to live, how do we build a business to make that happen? And so we. We focused on building a business around how we want to live. We don't live based on, you know, the business. So it's. We, you know, we've had that flip. Now, I do have a question. When you go into businesses and you're talking to these business owners, do you tend to find that most of the roadblocks that are keeping them from moving forward, do they tend to be more mental barriers, they need to get back, that need to get over, or does it tend to be more tactical? Things like, here's something you should be doing, but you're not doing?

I kind of think I already know the answer, but I'm curious how you would respond to that.

Well, so, I mean, I'm gonna. I'm punting, and I'm saying it's both. It's. It's. And it's often both. But I kind of work with so many different businesses. Each situation is different, but, yes, often. So one place that I'm working right now, they have cultural issues. They built a culture that's actually pretty cool, and it was very cool for what the business used to be, but it's not cool anymore in that it turned the business over to people who don't actually know what they're doing. And the culture says, don't tell people how to do their jobs, tell them what to do, and they'll figure it out. But if you look at the data, the data is not supporting that. So there's a big mind shift there that says we can preserve the best parts of this culture and we're going to let go of the parts that aren't serving your aims. So that, you know, that's a real mindset shift and it's. And it's across the board. But, you know, you walk into other people's businesses and they don't have enough, you know, particularly in the services arena. No services people have enough business unless they built a paid legion system.

Sure.

And I mean, it's just sort of. That's just sort of the basics of it. And all the people who were. Who grew up with the idea that free marketing is better are usually suffering for lack of business.

Yeah.

I mean, those are simple things. I could. I mean, there's a long list of things you usually run into, but I think the answer really is both sometimes. I had a client who I worked with for five years. I helped them sell their business for, let's call it mid eight figures. A lot of money.

And it was not worth that. It was worth. It was worth maybe a couple million when we met. So it wasn't nothing. But we multiplied it, I don't know, 40 times.

A lot. Yeah.

So that was pretty cool. But the first thing was the guy thought that he was the best doer in the place, so that he had to still be doing. And I bought with him over, no, you will make more money. The less you do, the more you'll make. And I persuaded him very quickly because I wasn't letting it go. I persuaded him very quickly to cut his actual doer schedule in half. And it was cool because his life immediately got better. He just became happier overnight. And he also started making more money. And then I got him to cut that in half. And by the end of six months, I got him out of doing it all together. And his amount of money kept escalating and his happiness kept escalating, and it was brilliant. And that was just a mind shift. He was like, yeah, people are coming here to see me. I was a health professional. He was like, people are coming to see me. I said, no, they're not. I said, they're coming here to get healed.

And so we started changing things a lot. And a lot of it was mindset and that just. And then the rest of it was finance in that business. I just figured out a financing mechanism.

To make it work.

And that's what caused all the growth.

I'm actually curious of how you quickly convinced him to just let stuff go, because I think that's something. I mean, I'm just speaking just selfishly. Matt and I think are guilty of doing a lot of that. We just kind of default to, let's just get the shit done. We know how to do it enough or good enough.

Right? So it goes back. I believe it goes back to purpose. It always goes back to purpose. And if your purpose is to. Let's keep it simple. If your purpose is to grow the business, then you say, well, but I'm the best person to grow the business because I know all this stuff. And teaching somebody is going to take three months. It's like, okay, but if we teach somebody and not only do we teach them, but we use the teaching to build a system as we go, then once you get past the systemization process, now you have scalability.

But if your goal is tomorrow's profits, if your goal is tomorrow's revenue, it's pretty hard to let go of anything. Because you say the shortest path to cash is if I do this. But if your goal is scalability because you want 10x and there's no freaking way you can deliver 10x, right? You might be able, because you're marketers, you might be able to get 10x worth of business. But if you're also the doers of stuff, well, you can't deliver 10x worth of business.

True, true.

So your limiting factor is your ability to deliver. And it's like, it ain't possible. It's simply not possible. Now if your life satisfaction derives from the doing of it, then you have to be able to. Then you have to hire leaders and you can be the chief doer. It's okay. I helped a friend of mine systemize his architecture business. And his goal was to be able to make the same amount of money while riding his motorcycle around the world.

Love it.

And basically what we did was we systemized every aspect of his business and brought in a lot of technology so that he could do his. The part which he was a genius at, which was the design part. He could and he was good. He was great at bringing in the business. So he couldn't bring in business from the road, but that was okay. He did that when he was home. But what he could do from the road was all his design work.

Sure.

And he did it from an iPad and a MacBook.

That's freaking awesome.

And so we systemized everything but his design work, and that worked out fine. So he was the doer of that, and everything else got delegated.

I love it.

But the answer to your question, which is how do I stop thinking I'm the doer? Is if your goals are big enough, you quickly realize that you can't do this the way you were doing it. You simply can't. Have you ever seen the mastery curve?

I've heard of it. I don't think I've seen it.

There's this beautiful little book.

Who'S written by a man who. I never can remember his name, but we can find it out really fast. His name is George Leonard.

Okay.

This book is written ages ago. It's been a best, you know, like a popular seller forever. And it's just this little book called Mastery. And in the book is a picture of a graph, and if you think of a sine wave that's just pointed up. Yeah, pointed up and to the right. And basically, you learn something new. And what happens? Your production goes down because you're trying to integrate the new thing. But then quickly production gets integrated, and now you start going up. So you go up for a while, you eventually plateau, and now you're stuck again. So now you inject something new, and your production immediately goes down, and then you start to get better and better, and then eventually it's fully integrated, and now you plateau again. That's the mastery curve. And so if you could persuade people that that's okay, and they have big goals which are going to cause them to change. That's how you do it.

That makes sense.

Otherwise you go like, no, I want the shortest, I want the result, and my results are going to get worse. While I teach somebody, it's like, okay, but you can handle that.

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, that's. That's definitely been probably one of the biggest roadblocks we've had in our own business, probably for different reasons. I think for me, it was more about trust. I've never really felt like people are going to do it as good as me, I think. I think for Joe, it's been more about. He's kind of had the mentality of, I could just do this real quick. So I'm just going to knock it out real quick.

Right.

For me, it's like, I don't feel they're going to do it as good as me. For, you know, for Joe, it's kind of been more the. This is quick and easy. I'm just going to handle it, you know.

So for me, it's a combination of both.

Yeah, yeah, right.

It's a combination of both those things. But this is the deal, which is if you're willing to trade short term results for bigger, better, more powerful, more exciting. Oh, probably more fun, more freeing, more life changing results, and you say, okay, this might be possible.

Yeah.

And that's when you trade. I can just bang this out for. I can just teach someone how to do this. Yeah, but the other part, you know, specifically Matt, it's like that no one will be able to do it as good as you. So here's how I look at it. There's 300 what, 30 million. 330 million people in the United States and there's 7 billion people around the world.

And then we have stuff like upwork and fiverr. Whatever. Like we have tools to find people who are super freaking talented. And if you're, if you're committed to the long haul, then you can find people and they're going to be smarter at it than you do. Maybe not up front, but maybe when you teach them what you know, they'll do it better. And there's a lot of people out there who, if you can figure out how to target the ones who have potential, you can get people who do anything that you do better. In fact, you can help them be better.

Yeah.

You just have to be willing to be. Not be afraid of that. And I think a lot of doers are afraid of that.

I think.

I don't want somebody who's smarter than I am. No, you're an idiot. Your people who are smarter than you are, you're an idiot.

Yeah, that's an ego thing right there. Agreed there. Oh, man, that's a good stuff.

A lot of people don't want to.

For sure. Yeah, they fight. It's that. Yeah. I don't know. I love it. And actively you'll be happy that we are actually having. We have a few, few people sourcing correct people for the roles that we're looking to fill. So we're headed that direction. Yeah.

We essentially hired a headhunter to grow our business for us. So.

No kidding. That's pretty cool.

Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's pretty sweet, but that's a little tangent. Should we start wrapping this up? I'm just looking at the time. I want to be conscious of that.

Yeah.

I feel like we could talk for hours.

Always. I know. Well, what's I guess, like, what's one big thing that. And I occasionally just think of this, like, what's a question that someone should be asking you if they're looking to grow their business? And maybe you just don't think you're asked enough. Like, is there something that's in your brain? You're like, man, I just wish we just talked about this thing.

I mentioned it earlier. Okay, which is, what are the critical points of leverage? What are the things that if we put. If we focus our attention on them, we can reduce the input or even keep the input stable and increase the output and the speed? For every business, there's just a small handful of those critical points of leverage. And to get an understanding of those unleashes the power of the business.

And it causes you to look at all sorts of other aspects. But that's the place to start. Like, what do I do next? Well, what's the most important thing? Well, I don't know. Well, what's the thing that's going to move the business fastest right now that you can do? And that's where the leverage is. And if we can define the leverage, then it's easy to define the dashboard for the things that measure it, things which are going to impact it, what kind of staff that we need? Like, everything flows from that. What systems do we need? If you were taking on the idea of systemizing your business, where do you start? You start with where the greatest leverage is. And if you systemize that one thing, you've transformed the business. Now you look for the next point of leverage and you systemize that one thing, and so on. So I think that's it. And I think the other thing, which I've started to think about a lot lately, is what are the rules around here? In other words, people operate with implicit rules to have all sorts of guidelines in their head about how things are supposed to be. And they're always making decisions based on how things are supposed to be, but they don't talk about those things. So all that stuff is happening. For some people, it's happening in their heads. And then for some people, it's happening unconsciously. And if you can. So I asked questions like, so what are the rules around here? You know, what are the ways that you are. What's governing your behavior that you haven't exposed? Because once you can make them explicit, then you have the chance to evaluate, well, which one of these rules actually matter today and which one of them are. Because.

My dad was an alcoholic and he beat my mother and I came up with some rules about how to live, which I'm running my business by, and I didn't even know it. So the idea of what are the critical success factors, which is what's going to tell you what's more important than everything else? And what rules are you operating by that you're not even conscious of? Because that's where you get to like, there's all sorts of things which are coupled together, you know, which tie into each other. And you, like your normal walking around self, has no idea why you're doing it that way. You just think it makes sense. And then you start to look at like, what are the rules? How did I decide this? And as you expose those things, you'll find out that you made some really brilliant decisions along the way. And then some of your decisions are just lunacy.

Oh yeah. You're like, why did I come to that decision?

And the more you can become clear about those, the freer you are. If we're going to wrap this up, I just want to leave people with this. I believe that being an entrepreneur is one of the fastest paths to personal development that there is. Not everybody I meet is interested in being the best version of themselves. But I'm no longer interested in working with people who that isn't what they're interested in. I'm really only interested in working with people who are a trying to build rocking businesses that serve whomever their constituency is, but really serve them. And their personal mission is to be the next best version of themselves. And running a business is the fastest path to that because once you start to expose your whys and wherefores and how you're making choices and so on, you get to retool yourself. That is awesome.

I love it, man. And I 100% agree with that statement. This is why we love talking to, I mean, so many entrepreneurs because everybody has their own take on it, but everybody's kind of gone through it too. So it's just so many cool stories, things that you could take from others. And thank you for sharing, man. That means a lot. And I guess wrapping up here, you already mentioned a book and we're definitely a Check it out. Mastery by George Leonard. Is there any other book or some kind of resource you kind of tend yourself you see yourself going to often.

You know, it's funny.

Lately I don't spend a lot of time reading business books just because I've been reading them for so long. They're mostly redundant.

Sure, sure.

There's not a lot of new ideas out in the world. I mean, there just isn't. You know, these ideas were invented. Every motivational idea you've ever heard of has been covered in Think and Grow Rich and the Science of Getting Rich. So, like, you don't need to read any more of those. And most of what giant company CEOs do doesn't really. You know what? So here's the book I don't want to read. I don't want to read Stealing Fire, and I don't want to read Stealing Fire, because if I read how the US Government and Google have, like, hundreds of millions of dollars set aside for this really cool equipment that's going to help people explore consciousness, it's like, can I get one at Costco? You're like, where do I get one of those things? And I can't do the stuff that they're talking about. And I find that most of the books. It's really interesting to think about how Elon Musk thinks and so on, but I got to tell you, I don't have those kind of resources.

Sure.

I can't do those things. So I'm really. I'm more interested in, like, talking to you guys. Yeah. How'd you get from here to there? And I just find that to be much, much more valuable. So the stuff I read, I read about history, I read philosophy. Lately, I'm reading a book about. Hold on a second. I'm reading a book about plant intelligence right now.

How plants. Like this guy shows us how bacteria operate intelligently and how plants operate intelligently and how ayahuasca. The stuff in ayahuasca doesn't just grow down in Peru and Brazil, but it's actually in every single ecosystem on the planet.

Oh, wow.

And I'm like, this is the stuff I'm interested in now.

I love it.

So my reading list is probably not all that valuable.

No, I think that's even. I mean, there's a debate that that's even just as valuable or more.

No, I'm with you. I've been known to read very random topics for books, and I've mentioned some on the podcast, and some of our guests have been.

Really?

Why do you bother reading that? Like, I have books about, like, how to build bat houses and how to care for bats because they, you know, cut down on them out of mosquitoes and harmful bugs in your yards. And I just. I. I love just reading about random topics. I'm with you. I'm kind of over the business books.

Well, actually, Elon, I think even said this Is like, if you read so much, you can then start to connect things that maybe you have a knowledge in marketing or business or maybe just two different subjects, history and bats, for instance. Find a connection.

I mean, I would if I once had an assistant who said, so what business books are you reading lately? And I was like, none. And he was shocked. He's like. Because all he was doing was reading. You know, if you read 20 business books, like, the first five of them might be cold. The next 15 are just going to be a rehash of the first five.

Yeah.

And I know that that's a blanket statement. It's not strictly true, but it's pretty true.

Yeah.

So for me, like, the more widely and strangely you read and the more widely estranged people you talk to, you know, you start to build a web of. You just said it. Like, you start to connect the dots in ways where like, you're gonna. You're gonna start to invent ideas that you have no idea where they're coming from.

Yeah.

And so I'm. It's like, yeah, business books. I don't know. I bought two. I bought two this year so far. And I just can't seem to spend a lot of time reading.

That's why, that's why I typically resort to just like the cat Cliff Notes. There's flashbook summaries. It's like, yeah, just give me the meat, you know, and then I'll maybe dive in deeper on something I'm really, really into. But that's a whole side topic.

Yeah. I mean, people should read my, my book, Be unreasonable. Everybody should read.

Well, there you go.

I've never even read that. I mean, it would be a mistake not to.

I might go get that.

Well, we'll have to link that up in the show notes too.

Yeah. So where, where else do you want to have people check you out and learn more?

They can. I have a website, of course, which is Paulumberg.com and I have been woefully remiss in my public Persona lately. I've been doing such deep dive work myself. I've just. I haven't been out there and active, but I'm working on a couple of new projects that are going to have me be like, oh, okay, I'm going to be creating some new material now.

Love it.

Yeah. Paulumber.com is a good place to start.

Cool. Yeah. Now we pulled it up here. We'll link it all up in the show notes and definitely, let's do a round two or three or who knows because, yeah, we had. We have diet talk. You know, I was going to say paleo, but keto and all this stuff here, so. Good stuff, Paul.

Yeah. I mean, next time we can actually talk about, like, real business strategy. That'd be cool.

It's fine. It's a living life. We're good, man.

Yeah. There'll definitely be a round two for this one because I do feel like we could go on for another two hours, but unfortunately, well, or fortunately, however you look at it, we've got other interviews we got to do today, so there are limits.

All right, guys, take care.

Have a good one. See you.

Bye. Bye.

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