Peter Ing - The Massive Business of Play-To-Earn Guilds

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float Shark with your boy.

My boy, Matt Wolf, Joe Fear. Hey.

Hey. Welcome back to Hustle and Flowchart. Today we are talking with Peter Ng. Now, Peter Ng runs Blockchain Space, which is sort of a guild of guilds. Over at Blockchain Space, they aggregate data from over 20,000 guilds. So if there's anybody in the gaming space that knows about guilds, it's Peter. So we're going to dive in with him in this conversation. But before we make sure you go check us out on Twitter. I am Matt Rwolfe on Twitter. Joe is Joe Fear on Twitter. We have Hard Fork Gaming over on Twitter. And once again, if you're not in the Discord, join us over in the Discord. Chat with us. Let's have some fun over there. Hustleandflowchart.com Discord all right, let's just get straight to it and chat with Peter Ng.

All right? All right, Peter, we are here together finally. How you doing today?

Yeah, awesome. Thank you very much for having me, Jerry.

Matt, of course, of course. Yeah, we're. We synced up last week, had a little tech hiccups, but it's all good. We're back. Better timing, new set up here. Interesting things happening in the world we were discussing at the time of this recording. It was the day of the Ronin hack and that was quite a large one. We're still trying to debate if that's the biggest one or not in the crypto space. And Jury's still out. Seems like, but crazy times, man. Yeah. And for you too, being in the middle of all this data and guilds, all that. I'm sure you're going to find some interesting data and publish that along the way in the weeks to come, hopefully.

Absolutely. So, selfishly, one of the first things I'm thinking of is I'm very glad or relieved that our business model doesn't require. Require kind of custodying funds for other customers. Right. Because, yeah, security is such a great risk in crypto, especially when the whole space is kind of being explored and you never know whether you actually have the best developers on your team. And the only way you are going to find out is someone actually manages to breach something that you've built. Right. And yeah, I think that's just a huge relief on our end, you know, that we don't, we don't actually custody any kind of funds and that we're not privy to such kind of attacks at this stage. But yeah, my thoughts to The Axie team. And we're definitely here for the long term to support the community and the game. And so we want the best outcome from this as well.

Yeah, man. Yeah, we all feel the same for sure. And it's interesting, your position. You're in an extremely unique position with Blockchain Space and what you put together. I said it's almost like aggregating all the data of guilds and scholars and games are displaying more just better data. And you have all this and you have some really cool plans for it. But I think you're in such a cool position to leverage that data, present that data and all that. So that's why we brought you on here because it's fascinating. We come from obviously Web2World, but data driven marketing and data driven all this stuff. So when we saw blockchain space, we're like, oh, wow, this is interesting. It's a different kind of play.

How would you describe what you guys are up to at Blockchain Space?

So I guess right now where we position ourselves is ready into data analytics for play to earn guilds. Ultimately, our goal is to empower all play to earn guilds. So we want them to kind of be enriched by kind of like more information. I guess that's by providing kind of transparency in data analytics and giving better insights. Then secondly by providing tooling so things like CRM, ERP solutions and then finally giving them access to finance. And I think the three are very much combined. It all starts with data. I think data is basically the underpinning, kind of backbone of where all of the kind of tooling and the financing is going to come from. So I think the data has been basically our key play since our ideo also kind of for the last six months, even pre ido, we were aggregating so much information on all these different guilds in the space that we started to uncover a lot of kind of key information about who's kind of like driving the growth of the space, which actually positions us very well to understand how are we going to attack this kind of opportunity. And as I saying to you guys earlier, we are probably one of the first to be able to actually using our data, categorize the different guilds that are involved in the play to earn space. And I think that's really key to understanding who is the addressable market and who is your real customer and how much larger can we see this going. So I think that's really, really key. Happy to dig into that if I want to as well.

Yeah, we definitely Will, now I'm curious. How did, how did blockchain space get started? Because I don't believe you were always focused on guilds. Right. It started in a different way. So how did, how did blockchain space started and like, kind of describe the evolution to where it is now?

I think it's actually pretty simple. Right. So I used to. Well, I still am a co owner of a co working space back in Manila, and I was really fascinated with crypto, what, ever since kind of like2016, 2017. So in the 2017 bull run, kind of, I, I, I rode quite a bit of that. But then I also held on to my bags for way too long. Complete amateur mistake. You know, went into 2018, probably lost more than like 60% or 70% of the portfolio value. Right? Just not very good at selling, very good at buying the vision, you know. And I actually was holding Bitcoin since 2013 and sold that in 2016, just before the 2017 bull run, which meant that, you know, when.

Bitcoin started going up, then I was like, you know, struggling to recover the bitcoin that I sold. And that was only around 3 bitcoin at the time. No, wait, I think it was around 6 bitcoin at the time. Yeah, it was a good lesson. And I think those are the lessons that basically, you know, they drive you to want to explore further. Right. What I did with the co working space is I decided okay with the technology. So fascinating, you know, but I don't, I don't understand it. I don't even understand what I was investing into in 2017. And so I made it a mission that I would connect with all the lead, all the thought leaders, you know, in the Philippines. Philippines, right. And invite thought leaders from overseas to come and speak in our space. And so we became the number one leading meetup space for all those crypto gatherings. All right. We hosted around 165 meetups. And ultimately the mission of blockchain space after, like, you know, just considering what are we doing, because, like, we're not just an event space. I mean, what are we actually trying to do? And you know, we were basically trying to, you know, by, by the, by the time I'd become, you know, a little bit more savvy about the technology, I was actually trying to educate others to be able to, into the space. Right. And so you would try to kind of teach people about wallets, teach people about exchanges, how to make your first transaction. What is gas? How do you understand all of this? Right. And then you know, so ultimately what we were trying to do is really onboard people into crypto. And it wasn't hard to see when Axie kind of exploded in 2020, like after, you know, perfect timing during COVID Right. One of our friends articles in the Philippines goes viral and it's this article from Coindesk which is about how to make money by computer games for two, three hours a day. Right? And in that time I think you were earning somewhere around like a thousand dollars in a month, right? Which was absolutely life changing in the Philippines, right? So just to give you some perspective, average salary here is about 250 to 300amonth, right? So if you're making $1,000 a month, you're making three times the average salary, right? And that's just by playing computer games for one quarter of your workday, you know, every day, right. And so you could easily supplement your existing job, right. If you had one. And if you didn't have a job, then this was already a perfect job, right. And so it kind of went viral. And then, you know, the Philippines today probably has between 2 to 3 million Axie players already. If you have a look at it. What actually ultimately happened is axie onboarded about 2 to 3 million new players from the Philippines into crypto, right? And basically educated them how to set up wallets, how to do transactions, everything that blockchain space basically was doing, but at a much, much larger scale and impact, right. And it wasn't hard to see that this was the onboarding tool that we were looking for and that basically I'd already been working towards. And so I realized that, you know, this is the chance for people to get into crypto for the first time and, you know, actually make real jobs out of actually being into crypto. And I remember during our meetups when we were in Manila doing with these crypto meetups, I kept thinking, you know, there was no opportunity for non technical people to be able to get into the space. Gaming is basically just shown us how to get into crypto without really being a techie, without having any kind of development knowledge, having any kind of any gaming knowledge, or you didn't build any games or you don't know how to develop any smart contracts and so on. And generally during my time in the meetup scene, the people that you would meet were people that were very technical. They really understood what they were talking about. They understood the tech and the development side of it. And you hear that many people getting in that were basically from the non tech side and suddenly actually explodes gaming.

It's a heck of an onboarding tool for crypto. And I know it's such a cool thing. And obviously the onboarding process is not perfect. It's still a lot of tech involved. But that's a cool story, man. I love how it started as a root in education and bringing people together. And you're still doing that. You're doing that even at greater scale now. I think you got funding as well through a variety of partners. Is that the same era? And that's what allowed you to really kind of enhance the vision of what you're doing.

Yeah. So after kind of actually exploded, I started one of the first AXI scholarship programs. So I heard about AXIE scholarship programs quite early on, I saw. So I was already in the chats and discord with, you know, some of the OGs, and I saw people talking about like, you know, I have 50 accounts and now I'm renting them out. You know, now they're making me kind of like passive income. And I was thinking, that's really interesting. I have, I have a few axies. I'm not really putting them to you use. And I never thought that axes would be the ones that I wanted to hold long term. You know, it's just, it's a game character, right. So you kind of like, you don't see the long term value. I always thought land assets would be the one to hold long term. So I was holding more land and less axes at that time. But then I realized, like, you know, the breeding costs were quite low at the time. And so to multiply, you know, like a factory of like these axes. And at the time when we, when we set up that guild, you could actually replicate axes with perfect genes. Right. So a lot of people that were around at that time, you were able to go, so if, you know, in the gene pool there are six different parts and you could replicate it with like absolutely perfect genes all the way down from, you know, the dominant to recessive one, recessive two. Right. And it would be 100%, you know, copy paste. And you could just do that as many times as you wanted. Right. And that was very attractive for people who are like, oh yeah, I want, I want the perfect axi. But then, yeah, randomness suddenly came in. So like that was probably like four, five, five to six months or something down the line. You know, basically what had happens is from running my own guild, which was called Axie Academy, I'd already learned like a lot of the pain points. I could see a Lot of pain points that needed to be addressed, right. And so I started addressing them for myself, right. So bit more on the selfish side. Like, you know, I basically knew that within my own pool of talents, my friends and my colleagues, that I could create some tooling that basically would help automate some processes. And a lot of that was native within Discord itself. And so we came up with the Discord Bot. The Discord bot helped to, like, kind of track performance, then provided some kind of guild manager features, you know, and people started using it a lot, right. And I remember within the first week that we decided to make it public, I published it onto Discord Bots gg and then within six, seven days, basically, we'd maxed out our capacity of servers, right? So there was 100 servers that had downloaded the bot. And I was like, you know, in tech, you know, when something goes kind of like viral, you know, in terms of downloads, then usually there is. There's something behind it, right? And then there's usually product market fit. I remember thinking, okay, this is getting more interesting now if I can get the bot verified so that you could get more downloads, let's see how far this can go. I remember it was just about a month or two before I actually went to pitch for funding that the bot got verified and in that time. So you couldn't. Couldn't add the bot to any more servers whilst it was waiting. It was pending for verification. So, you know, it was stagnant at 100 servers. But then when it did get verified, in the space of about two months, it went from 100 to a thousand. Right? So I think when I started pitching, it was around a thousand two hundred. So it went up ten times in two months. Right. And I was thinking, okay, there's definitely something here, right? And if I do want to pitch, I would pitch this because I've got product market fit with the tool itself, Right. And the tool itself is just has continued to grow on its own, Right. So it's sitting at around 4,600 users or something right now. And then that's that. That contributes quite a good chunk of our database. But we've now moved on to other data aggregation methods as well.

Wow, that's so cool. I love. And it's a perfect product market fit. So that helps aggregate data in one of the many ways that you aggregate data. It sounds like I want to go back really fast back to the people side of everything. Like you mentioned salaries in the Philippines. I know things have changed in economies and Axie and A lot of the guilds as well. But going back to the three things that you have, you have data and tools and finance. And I was especially curious about the finance aspect because I remember reading not a lot of folks or there are a lot of folks in the Philippines without a bank or access to loans and the ability to get more funding for whatever in their life. And it sounds like that's something. Is that something you guys are gearing up for or already do? I think I read something about microloans and some of these other things that really guilds are allowing the finances to improve in the Philippines and beyond as well. Is that kind of correct or was I totally off there?

Yeah. So it's really hard to measure exactly what the impact is, except the one that's really easy to measure is the number of Ronin wallets that exist. Right. So just to give you some kind of comparison, there is a fintech here that it's actually backed by telecom. There's actually a duopoly in the telco space. Well, there has been for a good part of like 10 to 20 years. There's been a third telco that came out in the last couple of years and it hasn't really made too much of an impact. But this one telco, it's called Globe Telecom, they have a Fintech subsidiary called GCash and through GCash, they've been trying to bank all the people through digital wallets on their mobile phone. And they've been trying to get everyone to go cashless. Right? And it's been like a massive struggle for them for the last 10 years. You know, I can't remember exactly what the numbers are now. It's going to be somewhere around like 10 mil plus. But that's because of basically Covid. Covid, basically accelerated adoption. But in, in the first, I think like nine years, you know, they struggled to even get their first million users. They poured tons and tons of money into it and there just wasn't any product market fit or like people just weren't ready to go cashless. And now you look at like Ronin Wallet coming out just at the peak of basically Axie and everyone having to use like Ronin Wallet, you probably got 2 million plus Ronin wallets just sitting in the Philippines right now. That makes them a fintech contender in the Philippines itself, right? So if I was to suddenly say, hey guys, with my Ronin Wallet, you can just create a QR code and just go beep at the merchants, then they basically became a fintech company. And what you can do is you translate basically earnings from the game into real life money to spend, which is very, very powerful. And I think that kind of makes you realize exactly which direction all of this gamefi stuff is actually heading towards. Right. And I very much see the Ronin Wallet as being a regular bank account. Just like how GCash was basically a digital wallet and the bank account for the telco users and like, you know, regular users. You're seeing a different avenue for adoption coming through Crypto games or NFT games.

Yeah, that is really fascinating. So I'd love your opinion on something. I want to, I want to ask you about like the sustainability of some of these play to earn games and the guild model because it seems like what we're seeing a lot with a lot of these games is there's not enough utility for the in game tokens, right. You've got Axie Infinity, so you've got the SLP token. Pagaxi is another game that we've been playing with a little bit in our guild and we're seeing these. There's the only utility is really breeding or cashing out the tokens and you're seeing the prices kind of drop, drop, drop when there's no other utility to it. So I'm curious about your opinion on how these games and guilds can sustain in the long term if, if with, with these trends that we're seeing.

Yeah, interesting. So I, I've been discussing this quite a bit with our management team as well. You know, we're really at the very beginning of the industry, right. And what we're seeing in gamefi and any kind of blockchain based games, I think a, a lot of people basically just learn from, if you look at it.

Breeding and earning are basically kind of pioneered by them. But then also a lot of those mechanisms come from other games. So they're just like, how do I add that functionality? Right? So I remember like the founders of Axie, both JIHO and Alex, they both came from the cryptokitty space. And in the cryptokitty space they knew that the breeding function, basically, I think it created hyperinflation at one stage. And so they knew that they needed a way to be able to control hyperinflation. And basically they put on that breeding fee, right? And that was one mechanism for them to say like, okay, well if we've got a breeding fee, then what? You know, then we'll have a loop basically with the earning fee, right? So you've got a breeding fee which is like burning and then the other side is minting, which is earning. Right. And so they basically pioneered this because they learned from cryptokitties that, you know, they were going to face a hyperinflation problem. Obviously Axie is like introduced like multiple, like new layers. Like, they also saw that, you know, fees were going to be too expensive, like using someone else's blockchain. Using someone else's blockchain was going to be too unreliable. You know, they were using initially they were using Loom Network and they considered, and I know they looked at Matic as like a layer two, you know, and then decided like, no, we're going to be. That's going to basically leave us completely reliant on, you know, the uptime of Matic Network. And so they decided, okay, I'm going to create our own network. And I wouldn't say like, Axie is definitely like, you know, the. They were not the famous or Sky Mavis wasn't the famous, like, you know, Block blockchain protocol company. They weren't famous for spinning up protocols, but they pioneered their own and it worked really well for how many months now or nearly a year. And yeah, unfortunate that the hack happens, but it's good that it happened early on and that their treasury is so big right now then rather later down the line when it becomes irrecoverable. So these are all kind of good lessons. But yeah, I think Axie basically, it pioneered a lot of the stuff at the beginning. The great thing is that I've been able to follow the journey and watch where, you know, the difficulties were, were knowing that, you know, when the games, the new games come, if you haven't solved those two or three or how many things that they've already encountered, right, Then, you know, they are all going to struggle. Right. So a lot of people think that they know what Axie did and you know, and like try and replicate the model, do the whole breeding and, and minting kind of balance or mechanism and then realize like, oh, they haven't thought of something else. Right. And so I think we see a lot of copycats right now at this stage stage. And there's no real innovation in that, in the token mechanics. Right. And so I think that's going to come down later down the line. But I don't think these, you know, these games, when they're coming out too fast, you know, and they're going live too fast, then, you know, there's surely going to be something wrong. Like to make a good game takes quite a few years, right. But I'm not A game designer. But I mean like just looking historically I think when you're popping out games too quick, you know, unless your business model is like we are going to do really quick cycles for games, you know, then. Which is another discussion by the way, because I think there will be a genre of game where you just have to every two, three months or every six months you're going to have to pop out a new game basically to keep people in your ecosystem. Right. Because there is always this hype cycle that goes into a game when like you see with Pegaxy recently, right. It doesn't, basically doesn't have any traction at the beginning. Then suddenly people start to earn in it. Then of course the moment people earn, then it goes viral, then people all talking about it and then it just, it creates more hype and then it creates a mass peak and there's no way you can sustain that peak because the economy wasn't built to be that fast, that quick. And then you see a massive crash when people start to profit take. Right. And I do think that there might be like a genre where you know, you will see kind of like these quick kind of cycles, right. And where you know, tokens will just will peak very quick and then you might have to switch to different games.

Yeah, I like the idea of like a game house or an environment of a. You know, when they're putting out games that maybe it's integrating and we're seeing this in some of the folks that are putting out games now and that are coming, that they have kind of a roadmap of multiple games or they have an ecosystem of even other guilds and community members that they can kind of keep close and not have them hop away to the next best thing or shiny thing out there. Because we all know that there's a million of those and way more coming. Exactly. It's patience and you need to I guess build that moat around what you're building and launching out there. And guilds I think help a lot out there. Yeah.

If you haven't, you know, I was watching Axie for a good like you know, two years before anything, you know, remotely interesting actually happened. So at the very beginning I didn't like, very honestly I didn't enjoy the gameplay. So a lot of people, very few people remember the days when Axie used to be a web based game and it used to be auto battle. Right. So you used to have to send, you know like 10 prefabricated teams to battle with like a competitor that you had absolutely no idea who was going to be, because the matchmaking kind of happened in the background and you were would send it by placing a metamask transaction or multiple metamask transactions, which later became really expensive, you know. And it wasn't that like I didn't, it didn't drive me to want to understand even the cards or the parts of the axes I didn't understand, like the card strategy and so on. And then suddenly when they turn into a mobile game with like, you know, cards that you could take turns to play, that actually became way more interesting for me personally, right? And that's where, you know, I started to pay more attention. Then the key moment that I already thought, where I thought this is absolutely going to be huge, is when I start there was this one. So basically it was a community driven esports tournament and it was called the Waxy Thon and it was run by Axi gg. So what happened actually very, very crazy story is that I was just in front of my computer like, you know, doing regular crypto stuff and then I started getting a lot of pings on Discord. And there was this guy that was trying to buy one of my Axies, like, and he kept sending me messages, send me like 20 messages with, in like two minutes, right? I'm thinking like, what's going on? And the guy's like, can you send me this Axie? You know, and then keep sending me the picture of the Axi and like, ID whatever, you know, I go back and check and like okay, yeah, yeah, that is my Axie. I remember going back to Jiho, asking him like, is this a fair price that the guy's offering me? And because I hadn't basically sold an Axi for a good year, you know, I sold it to the guy, probably got a really good deal from me, right? But then more importantly, I wrote back to the guy and said like, why did you need it so urgently, right? And the guy just basically sends me a link for the esports tournament he was in, right? And he basically I. I started watching the tournament, right? And the next round he was basically using my Axie, right? He was competing for like this tournament with like a $5,000 prize pool, you know, and it was like, ah, makes sense, you know, and, and that was kind of like the aha moment where I was like, this could be really big now like before watching Axie was not fun, right? These auto battle tournaments, it was web based, but now suddenly was mobile based. Other people could spectate each games. And I saw this whole kind of like, oh man, if you can spectate on Axie, then this is going to get much bigger in the whole esports side anyway. So that was the moment where I was just like, okay, this is 100% on my radar now.

Yeah, that makes sense. And the whole guild thing, that obviously shows the power of having a guild and the tournaments of a guild now how that's evolved already so quickly.

Absolutely. Exactly.

Yeah. And you broke down some stats right before we got on here. But I'm curious, curious just to break it down for everybody else, the types of guilds and how you see and classify them, and also some of the numbers that you could share behind them that you guys have aggregated that might show or paint a picture for folks of how many people we have in this space where that push is coming from, who has the most influence. And it's kind of more of a landscape that maybe most people haven't heard of yet.

Yeah, absolutely. So right now what we're doing is we're the largest play to earn guild database in the world. We're now tracking just over 20,000 guilds. That was actually our target for end of March. So my management team are definitely going to get something at the end of this month.

Yeah, so we, we. That was a really big target for us to be able to hit. To give you guys some understanding of, you know, how we see the guild space being segmented is between micro, mid tier and macro guilds. Right. And the micro guilds are what we consider someone with at least 10 accounts, up to 100 accounts. The mid tier guilds are what we consider between 100 accounts to a thousand accounts. And the macro guilds are what we consider anyone with a thousand accounts. Plus, if you have a look at the segmentation from what we can see from our data, the micro guilds basically represent around 97% of the entire play to earn guild ecosystem. The mid tier represent about 2% and the macro guilds represent around 1% or even less. To give you an idea of like what that actually means, it's massively skewed by the micro guilds. Right. And so that really brings the scholar, average scholar count off the whole space really much further down than you would expect. So actually the average scholar count across all guilds in the world is well across the 20,000 that we're covering is around 19 scholars. So 19 accounts. Right. Which is not particularly huge. Right. So we look at discord numbers as community sizes, which gives us an indication of like just how big are these communities that the average guild is actually creating. And it's only around 93 people within that Discord server, right? So that's actually really small if you consider like people keep thinking about the tens of thousands within like the macro guilds, right, which are absolutely monster communities. But then if you look at it actually, the average guild has actually only got around 93 members within their Discord server. And so it's like a much smaller kind of more niche, more like a tighter knit community that is getting built as your average guild. I always like to reference basically because obviously the Philippines was one of the first places where guild guilds, or what we call AXI scholarship programs, which are basically what I see as one business model that a guild runs, right? So the. It's basically a loaning model, right? So it's a learning business model, but run by a guild, right? And so the, the guilds from the Philippines that are majority, all micro guilds, these are what we call mom and pop kind of shops or even like very micro kind of entrepreneurs who are spending about, about, you know, a thousand to $5,000 investment into the game. A lot of them. So we can even segment that further, right? And we'll be releasing some research reports about this as well. Basically a lot of them actually came from what we call Scholar Graduation. So they started off as being sponsored in accounts. They never paid anything to get in. Then they earned their accounts, right. Then they started replicating their accounts because all the SLP they earned during the game, they reinvested it back in, right. And then they own, you know, 10 to 20 accounts them, right. So those are what we call graduates, right. Then there are some people that basically did actually put a bit of money in themselves. So they, they are from a slightly different like class. I, I think they are the smaller segments. I think the majority basically came from the, basically the graduation side. And so there's been this whole, what we call social mobility movement, right, which is like, basically someone, you know, from the like lower working class class with the lower income level has been able to earn new assets and make new investments just by playing the game and exchanging basically time for money, right? And it's created them into business owners. And that's where I 100% see the opportunity is these are new business owners who come into the space and not only is it like a whole brand new business for these people, it's a, it's a crypto native business which they have absolutely no understanding about because they came into the game through their friends and family and they were like, hey, play Play this game, it's fun and it's going to earn you $1,000 in the month. But then beyond that, they don't know anything else about crypto. They've learned a bit like, about wallets, They've learned about, about, you know, how to cash out through Binance P2P. Right. But beyond that, they don't know about, like, defi, how to, how to farm, how to farm stablecoins, you know, and things like that. You know, there's so much more to be explored. And so they've just entered this space, but they don't know what else is on. Going available.

The market there just sounds massive. I mean, and just play to Earn. In general, the education, it feels like, okay, it's such a great onboarding mechanism and it will keep improving with the different ways to get into these games. But that's such a valuable space to not only grow wealth, but create a business, a different reality for a lot of folks around the world. And then give them the ability or education. Sounds like, I think you help them with that as well. So give them the education and give them some of that training to go a little further with what they're already up to.

Absolutely. Yeah. No, I, I, I definitely see this as a social mobility movement. You know, I, I think this is people coming into, you know, setting up their first business for a lot of them. Right. And then they just absolutely don't know what to do next. A lot of them got lost with the AXI earnings dropping over the last six, seven months. Right. They're just like, what do I do now? You know, I'm still kind of all in. I don't know any other business model other than this. People talk about pegaxy, which is like an incredibly high investment cost. Right. And then they're like, well, should I, should I liquidate or shouldn't I liquidate? And you know, because like, all the prices have suddenly hit rock bottom, you know, and now with the hack, obviously, you know, that probably doesn't help at all. So you're going to say something.

Yeah, I mean, it was kind of a shift in topic, but so I'm glad you got that in there. But I wanted to ask about the, the Guild token, the, the Guild token of blockchain space and, and what that's about and, you know, the utility of that, that and whatever you can tell us about it.

Yeah, absolutely. So for us, you know, Play to Earn is basically being driven by the guilds. Right. There's no doubt about it right there. Are you Know, if you, if you say like 100 community members on average per guild, then you got at least 20,000 guilds. You know, you've got at least 2 million people basically just coming from the guild space and of which, you know, you know, I think the total addressable plates own market might be around 5 mil or so. I, I think the guild space is probably bigger than this, but in my mind it's around at least 50 to 60 billion percent of play to earn, which is a very, very large part of it. Right. And you can see that's coming from developing markets. Right. And so like the idea is like, how do we mobilize basically all these different guilds that are coming into the space and connect them with the rest of the ecosystem. And so the ecosystem that we see is basically, you know, of course you got the games on one side, got guilt on another side, and then you've got investors on another side that want to either invest into the game games or they want to be able to use the existing structures like the guilds to be able to farm game tokens and they want to be able to invest into the guild. Right. And so our token basically sits in the middle of this triage between the game, the investor and the guilds. And I think where we see the most value is actually mobilization of these different guild communities. Where do we help people to move between. Right. So we've been doing a lot of kind of like consultation together with games, like early stage games on what value you know, these micro guilds can provide to the games, you know, as they are building out exactly what you guys were saying about, you know, like, are these economies sustainable or not? You know, we're looking at, okay, so what is the, you know, the long term value that a guild game relationship can bring? Right. And so I think the, what we're seeing right now is that, you know, the, the guilds basically, even though the game can be very early, you know, if the game, the guilds come in early enough, right. They form a very lasting bond, the game and they will be patient to go through all the different development cycles that the game has. So you can actually, as long as they enjoy your game, what we're seeing is like, you know, you can start them off with starter packs, but then these guys, once they've bidden in, you know, they will start to, you know, upgrade their teams, they'll start to add more teams. Right. And that's basically the relationship that the guild ecosystem will basically provide. Right. So now like the games basically want to be able to connect with like multiple different guilds. We provide that, you know, facilitation. We've yet to build out that automated part of it, but when it does happen, it'll all be driven by guild. And then the part where the investor basically can invest into either the game or the guild will basically also be driven by guild. So we just kind of like see this triage happening.

It's interesting to hear or just to think about the power of what you're building there and the power that micro guilds have over this whole space and how I could see that continuing to grow and be the predominant thing. Of course, guilds will probably mold and change over the time with the games changing and economies and the values of these things. But it's so fascinating because you're dealing with a bunch of different micro guilds, 97% you said, and they're going to continue to collaborate or do things together and you're just giving them so much value, education and yeah, the token. Then it gives the other side, the investors, the ability to actually back all this stuff as well.

Exactly.

Very cool. So where is blockchain space going next? What does the future look like for blockchain space? What are some of the stuff that you're excited to.

To.

To build upon of from what you've done already?

Honestly, I think we're still so early. Like I, I think not enough people know about us. I think maybe, you know, the, the, the people that are deep into the space, they, they, they know what we're doing, they know what we're up to. But the people on the greater side, you know, like the people that are coming in into the space for the first time, or even like, you know, communication with our own guilds. Like when you map that many guilds, when you've got 20, 000 guilds in your database, like how, how do you keep a constant communication channel with 20,000 builds? Right. It's not that simple. It's not like I'll send one email or I'll create a telegram, you know, announcements channel or a Discord group, which, you know, it's. You're not going to get. You, you won't get engagement with 20,000 guilds. Right. And so I think that for us is one of the key foundational things that we need to work on right now is how to communicate effectively with that many people and you know, to keep them engaged basically because we can. That, you know, there's so much potential for them to jump between, you know, different parts of the ecosystem and to get them introduced to, you know, even like the other, other like kind of financial services. So, you know, if you're, let's say your profit taking half of your earnings, which might be a few hundred dollars each month, you know, at the end of the month, what are you going to put it into? Are you going to put into a farm? Are you going to put into stablecoin farm? Are you going to, you can invest into other assets, you know, or are you going to cash out everything? Right? And those are things that we want to be able to, able to work on, to be able to kind of help educate these micro guilds as well, just give them the options.

We're giving everybody a ton of options already. And yeah, we're all super early in this space. Everyone keeps saying it's from like 1992, 1993 of the Internet, think long game. So I love what you guys are doing and data is powerful and obviously used in the right ways. But the fact is you're sharing that publicly and we'll link something up. There's a one pager that you can guys have, I think it's a PDF, but it might be become more interactive or whatnot. And it's super cool to look at because you guys detail so much data in there and give away this publicly.

So absolutely, yeah. And then the other thing is that we, so you know, of course now with all these data points, right, we want to work with other people, right? We don't want to, you know, the data is not just for us, it's for everyone. Right. And you know, we're so early in the space that, you know, I feel like the education part is so critical. Like even the smartest developers out there probably don't know exactly what the data is saying right now. And they're thinking, oh, I want to build products for this ecosystem. But they're probably like a lot of them are probably building it the wrong way. If you don't understand. The market's driven by what we call micro guilds and they're building all the products for only the macro guilds. You're not going to have product market fit for the majority of the ecosystem. The idea is that with this data you can take as basically a feed and then people who are even better than us at building products can come on, use that feed and now build off that. And our job will be to maintain the best, cleanest and best like verified feed for these guys so that, you know, they basically just stick to their part that they do best and then we stick to the part that we do best, you know, And I think there's so much opportunity there. I mean, just to give you an example. No. We are working with fintechs right now in the Philippines, come up with credit scores, Right. So they look at the data, look at the earnings history of each of the different guilds and each of the individual players. Right. And they say, like, okay, we can allocate credit based off this history and this is how much we can loan out and this is the payback period. And that. That's the kind of stuff that you can do with that kind of data.

Yeah. Tracking all the transactions, earnings and all that. What you described was kind of what I was kind of leading at, what I was trying to get out of my mind. Yeah. It was like, wow, that is just brilliant. I love, like, when you start to understand the model of guilds and where it can go and where it's already going. Yeah. The fact that you're now giving people possibilities that never had that before for blockchain or finding these games, it's wild. And the fact that it's so early in education, I think that's going to help so many folks completely.

Right. And the way I see play to earn is also it's a borderless economy. It's basically the metaverse, Right. You've now accessed the open metaverse, the part that really drives me a lot. And I guess I'm very sentimental about this because I've been in the Philippines for over 10 years now, and I've seen basically the workforce here with a certain restriction on top of their head. You can never be bigger than this. There are certain industries that people aspire to work in. And I'm thinking you guys are way smarter than that. You know, it's just you're not given the opportunity. Right. And obviously there's politics and there's manipulation and corruption, right? And now suddenly they're accessing this international labor market, you know, in the metaverse, which absolutely no one can tell you that you can't participate in. Right. So it's not like you have to get permission from anyone. Right. It's like it's 100% opt in, you know, if you. You want it, then it's there.

Trustless plan. Like, just everybody get involved. If you want to learn, you got a place for you. Peter. This is rad. I think we can keep going for another hour, but let's pause here.

We'll have to do a round two at some point.

Yeah, we got work to do. And I definitely. We would love to have you back on in the future as you get more data and, you know, the space evolves. But where's the best places that people can check you out? Socials, website, all that.

So I'm trying to be better on Twitter, so you can follow me at Petering on Twitter. So that's peter ing underscore.

Right. How about Blockchain Space? I think you guys are pretty active over there, though, on Twitter.

Oh, yeah, we are. So we. Yeah, our team is, like, pushing out a lot of announcements these days. So we're at Blockchain spc.

Yeah. And website Blockchainspace Asia. That's what I got here. And yeah, look for that one pager. We'll link it up in the show notes and everything else, too, because there's a lot of Peter. Yeah, man. Well, thank you so much for your time and until next time, have a good one, man.

Absolutely. Thanks. Thank you, guys.