Ralph Burns — This Is The Future Of Facebook Advertising

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. Welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast.

What's up?

Matt Wolfe here with my business partner, Joe Fear. What's up, business partners@evergreenprofits.com thank you for clarifying that.

I forgot what business we had together.

You know what I want to talk about today?

No.

I want to talk about Facebook and Facebook ads.

Why would you do that?

Because we have Ralph Burns joining us. Oh, it's Ra. He's the founder of Tier 11. He's the co host of Perpetual Traffic. I want to say perpetual audience, which is us. He's Perpetual Traffic. So today on the podcast, we're going to cover a lot of ground around Facebook advertising. You know, we're going to. He. He really has some systems built for E commerce and how to make E commerce work with Facebook ads. And we were really curious because we've always had this impression that when you're in E Comm, you're selling like $10 widgets and you have a $5 profit. There's no money left over for Facebook ads. But, you know, he kind of dove in with us and explained how to make that profitable. So we're gonna touch on that and.

You can apply that. Obviously, if you're not in E Comm, you can take the principles of what he's teaching. What's really cool is because E Comm, inherently, there's kind of tinier profit margins, but if you have something like an info product, you can still apply a lot of what he's saying here. And then you have a lot more margin.

The stuff that's gonna work with the really low margin products is gonna work with the really high margin products as well.

Exactly.

So lots of great stuff there. We also go down this rabbit hole of Chatbots because Joe and I ourselves have done some crazy cool stuff with Chatbots. And so we wanted to hear about some of the cool things that Ralph and his team are doing with Chatbots. So we kind of dove down that rabbit hole a little bit.

Yeah. And talked about the future of the Facebook ad platform as a whole and kind of some of the cool new things that are being introduced right now that you can leverage on Facebook, but also the fact that this is just the early stages of where Facebook's taking things, and Ralph breaks that down and his thoughts, his experience behind the platform and what he expects to come next.

Yeah, I mean, if you Kind of put it this way. Facebook is trying to take all the subjectivity out of advertising. Facebook wants to get to a point where you go in and you say, here's the page I'm trying to drive traffic to. Here's what I consider a conversion. And then Facebook algorithms just take it over and. And figure out how to make you more sales. Facebook is legitimately trying to get to that place for advertisers.

They want it to be.

They want to make it as effortless as possible for advertisers to promote on their platform and be really very profitable. So they're trying to do all this optimization behind the scenes. So we're going to really dive in on some of this stuff that Facebook is doing to make advertising even easier.

Oh, and we are neglecting the fact that we had a co host with us, a guy that's never been on the show, but he's been mentioned many, many times on previous episodes.

Dan Ryan.

Dan Ryan.

So Dan Ryan joined us today.

He graces us with his presence on this show. The entirety of the episode, actually.

Yeah, he hung out and he just kind of. He kind of listened in live and then jumped in with questions and feedback and stuff from time to time.

So a little background on Dan. We're not gonna. But just so you are aware of who this guy is in the background talking occasionally. Dan's a good buddy of ours. That's how we met Ralph. That's how we've. He's actually like our. Our quote, unquote booking agent, which is total. It's bs, but it's.

It's just something we booked a handful of people for us. He's also the guy that taught us how to do Google Ads. He's our sort of Google Ads mentor. So a lot of this stuff we've talked about in the past around Google Ads, we learned from Dan Ryan.

So Dan's a traffic master. He's just a brilliant marketing mind, business owner. He is behind the scenes typically, and has always resisted being on a podcast. I think this is his first podcast as well.

Yeah.

So take that, Dan. Yeah.

You broke Dan's cherry, not Jan's. Terry.

Moving on.

All right, so this episode is sponsored by GenM, and we actually have a special link for you. If you go to evergreenprofits.com genm, g, e, n M. You can actually get a nice little discount on it. So GenM, what is it, Matt? A really cool platform. So let's say you've got tasks that need to be done in your business and you don't want to pay a lot of money for them or where would you go? Well, genm, for 50 bucks a month, you can get a worker who will work 40 hours a month for you, 10 hours a week for only 50 bucks a month. Virtually. They're like virtual. What do they call them? Not virtual apprentices. Virtual apprentices. So for 50 bucks a month, you're going to get this virtual apprentice working on things in your business for you for 10 hours a week. And we're talking things like SEO, paid traffic, content creation, content curation.

Dude. Writing your copy, sending your emails, proofing stuff, researching, curating.

Like writing show notes for podcast episodes.

Or cheat sheets or. Yeah, doing your SEO, that probably was mentioned already, but. Or even, you know, using our traffic system. The perpetual audience growth actually following that and implementing that for you.

Yeah.

If you purchase that or if you're going to. You should get an intern to do this for you. And this is like, literally the biggest hack. People feel like. I don't know. I'm just. I'm just pumped up about this. Matt's like, dude, what are you doing? You're talking too much. I'm like. Because I'm excited, Damn it.

It's evergreen profits.com genm G, E N M. And that'll get you a little discount code.

And it's already cheap enough, but we're gonna make it cheaper for you.

Yeah, I mean, 50 bucks a month is too much to pay for somebody to work 40 hours a month for you.

Dear God.

You get a discount code anyway. @evergreenprofits.com GenM, let's talk to Ralph Burns about some Facebook stuff.

And Dan Ryan.

And Dan Ryan, mainly Ralph.

All right, I think we are finally rolling now. Even though we should have been recording what was previous.

Our pre.

What are you guys doing? And I said, guys, not just Ralph.

Good, good.

Ralph, how you doing?

We are we live now?

We're live.

We're live. This is. This is airing to the Internet right now.

Oh, my God. The interwebs.

The interwebs.

I'm great.

How are you, gu?

We're doing amazing, man. Podcast days are the best days. And I know we're going to have a lot to talk about. For some reason, this guy Dan Ryan popped on the show as well.

He just emailed me.

He found a link or something. I don't know. On the Dark Web.

We've talked about Dan enough on this show that we decided to bring him on as a third co host for this episode.

Great.

That's great. Well, he was probably just cruising the dark web all day and had nothing to do.

He sounds ecstatic about being here.

Well, I think Ralph is actually bummed that Dan's here. And.

Some workout tips, too, which I hope to. Yeah, cash in on those.

We could get to that maybe later in the episode. Yeah, Dan's workout tips.

As well as Dan's selfie tips for Instagram.

Yeah, you don't know how to take.

A picture of your foot.

We promised to double your viewership on Facebook.

Tens of views on your Facebook post.

Tens of views now.

Yeah, tens of views.

All right, well, let's start with you, Ralph. Since you are the focus of this interview, Dan, you could just kind of lurk, you know, do what you're good at over there.

What is that?

Actually.

Nobody knows.

Yeah, who knows, Ralph? So give us a little backstory. Nothing too crazy, but you're doing a whole bunch of stuff in ads, podcast. You have tier 11 agency. So give us kind of the scoop of what brought you to this point.

Yeah, well, I started off as a slimy affiliate way back 10, 12 years ago. Not that all affiliates are slimy, but I definitely was. The offers that I was selling were very sketchy, but they were converting. And, yeah, that's actually how I started with paid traffic, believe it or not. Before that, my wife, in her infinite wisdom, realized on her ninth wedding anniversary that I was working in the corporate world and we got together for, you know, what was the ninth wedding anniversary? Actually, I think I gave her like an ethernet cable for, like her ninth wedding anniversary.

So lovely of you.

I know it's like the worst gift ever, but she gave me the best gift, which it's kind of cliche now because a lot of people have the same story. But, you know, I was in the sales and marketing world and sales and sales management world, really, for a couple of Fortune 500 companies and making pretty good money. You know, the expense account, the nice car, all that, the house in the suburbs. But I was just miserable. Actually, I was worse than miserable. I dreaded going to work every day at a five hour commute. So she gave me this little book called the Four Hour Workweek. And yeah, I'm sure you guys have either read it or familiar with it, and listeners are probably familiar with it. I don't know how relevant it is today. I don't know as if it's been updated, but I read it and she's like, you need to read this book because you are freaking miserable to live with.

Wow, that is love right there.

Yeah, that is love. That is love. So even though I gave the Ethernet cable for the ninth wedding anniversary, I got the bigger gift, which ended up just opening my mind to the fact that people were making money on this thing called the Internet. And I couldn't actually believe that it was possible. So immediately, not immediately, I would say within the next month, I actually started my own blog. Because I was a sales manager at this lab company. I figured I would start the blog about sales and sales management, something that I actually knew. And if they found out, they wouldn't fire me because I was just kind of on the job or on the blog training. And I guess that is a cliche there. But the point was, is that I actually felt it was the safest thing to do as sort of a moonlighting business. They eventually did find out. About a year later, they ended up firing me for some sort of corporate scandal about Medicare reimbursement and paying off doctors. I don't know what the hell that was all about, but anyway, so I was like the Oliver north of that whole thing. Basically, they pointed the finger at me. I got fired and I was now forced to do this online thing and make this blog that I had, which was really pathetic work. And I realized that it wasn't doing well as far as bringing in any sort of measurable income. But one of the things that I had learned in the couple of years after starting the blog was how to run paid traffic to it and how to use Google AdWords as well as Bing and Yahoo, if you guys remember those networks. Way back when.

I started selling affiliate products that were actually making money and were converting as opposed to the products that I had on my crappy sales management site that nobody wanted. I became an affiliate for a bunch of different work at home products, diet products, really kind of scammy products. But eventually Facebook started allowing advertising on their platform. This is about 2009, 2010, and I was an affiliate for. I don't know if you guys remember Christian Mingle. Do you remember that?

Oh, yeah, yeah, I know the name Matt was on there.

Yeah, that's right.

There you go.

He met his wife there. That's great. Christian Mingle is a Christian dating site. And I was. I was doing well on pay per click advertising. But as soon as Facebook came up, the only targeting that they actually had for advertising was what gender you were, where you lived, what your age was, and if you're interested in men or women and marital status. Well, the only real offer that I had that would potentially work for Facebook was This Christian Mingle offer. So I actually started selling it on Facebook and did really well. Actually turned into known as sort of a super affiliate. But I was amazed. One night I actually let the traffic go on this campaign and I didn't put a campaign budget cap on it. And literally I set it live. And an hour later I brought my laptop, my old like IBM ThinkPad laptop, like next to my bed and I looked at it and I had spent $700.

But not made a single sale, which was horrible because obviously I didn't have very good. But point was I was like, holy crap, there's so much traffic on this platform. If they ever figured out any sort of interest targeting, then it would just be killer. Kind of got away from it for a few years, still did the affiliate thing. And then they started putting ads in the newsfeed around 2012 and then got good targeting added in third party data and it was lights out from there on. I actually started taking on customers who wanted to advertise their local businesses through Facebook as well. As we were doing SEO as sort of a SEO Facebook agency and my first customer as an agency customer, I charged them $100 a month.

Yes.

Yeah, that was it.

The affiliate stuff wasn't doing so hot then, huh?

No, it had died out. It was sort of like 2012, 2013. There was a big crackdown with the SEC, so I was out of that game. So I needed a legit and I started the agency there. And we've sort of pivoted from SEO to straight Facebook and have been doing it with Instagram ever since.

Wow. I actually got an idea while you were explaining that, because where I thought you were going to go with Christian Mingle is if you wanted to get more dates, couldn't you run ads straight to your profile on Christian Mingle and then target people who shows their job description as model and female? And then.

I think we're onto something here.

I'm thinking about actually getting into the matchmaking business and just like lead genning for people, I think you could do it.

Definitely. The targeting's there. You gotta watch out for policy.

Better than Christian Mingle.

That'd be great. Yeah. Dan's all in. He's ready to invest.

I'm literally looking for your blog. That's what I'm like. Oh my God. Where's feels the burns? Feeltheburns.com where is it?

You'll have to really search hard. It was salesmanagementmastery.com sweet.

You gave him way too much ammo there to Work with.

That's gonna come back to haunt me later on, but I've got plenty on Dan right now anyway, so it's.

Well, now you have the platform, so.

No, it's super interesting because your story actually kind of parallels our story quite well. You know, we had. We had a job. We had jobs. We started blogging kind of in the evenings.

Joe's slash, when your parents weren't looking at us on the computer.

Yeah, it was actually the family company, but then the company sold. Then I hated my boss, and I ended up quitting and saying, all right, I'm gonna figure out how to make the. This blogging thing work. Transitioned to affiliate marketing, then started selling courses. So you went the agency route? I went the course route, yeah.

Yeah, and I went more agency route and then came back.

Yeah. I found that, you know, the. The. I had built this site up, and I spent thousands and thousands of dollars for sales managers who wanted sales management training. And. And I launched it, you know, using Jeff Walker's product launch formula. I remember, like, the third video. It's like we opened the doors at 11am and I was like, you know, I had my wife at the ready. I was at a conference for the company I was working for. Like, just press that button on my laptop at home and just buy this thing. Because I was, like, I was so sucked in by the whole, like, you know, scarcity product launch for me, the whole thing. And I bought it, and it was $2,000, and I ended up using that for my launch for my paid membership site, which precisely two people bought.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

I was killing it. I was killing it. My list of 10,000.

But I learned a lot about traffic. It was a very expensive tuition to pay. But, yeah, I still draw on that to this day. Like, you know, never try to sell something that, you know, that you have no idea if the market actually wants it. I mean, go out there and create some kind of minimally viable product, you know, with $20 or $30 or $100 of traffic, as opposed to investing tens of thousands, which is what I did, into a venture that never really took off the ground. Lesson learned.

How would you test now? How would you approach things?

I would definitely test a lot of people. We get this a lot inside the agency. Is that when you want to test a new offer, people always want to say, oh, well, I've got my website, custom audiences, the audiences I've built inside Facebook that have been to my site or been to my blog or been to my sales page or maybe my Leads, people who know me who are familiar with me. That's great. If you have a list. In my case, I think I had a list of like 10,000 people, 12,000 people of sales managers, supposedly, that are ready to buy this product that no one bought, two people bought. A lot of people want to test their offers to traffic just using their warm audiences. And I think that's helpful, like using those leads, using those website custom audiences. But it gives you a false sense of security because it will help you to test the funnel and make sure all your buttons are working and your merchant account is set up and all that, and that the offer actually has a pulse. But we still recommend now, if you have a new offer, yeah, test it out on a segment of your list. But you still need to devote maybe 10 to 20% of your cold traffic audiences that have more no idea who you are to that offer. And that's how you really figure out whether or not you've got something. So I did it the exact opposite. Spent tens of thousands to create a list and then tested it only on that list, when, in fact, I probably could have done it just to cold traffic. Tested it out a little bit, see if it had actual pulse, and then figure out whether I want to scale it out. So I sort of did it in reverse.

That makes sense. How many people, like, if you were to test with cold traffic, did you say hundreds would be like a fairly good test, or do you have a number, magic number in mind?

I think it depends on what your pain threshold is, because with any new offer, we were just on a customer call yesterday. I said, you have no idea how this new offer is going to respond to cold traffic. So be prepared for a world of suck. I don't care how good you are as a marketer. I don't care what agency you have. You don't ever know whether somebody's going to buy your stuff. But so you have to be able to put a certain amount of money that you just light it on fire. I mean, whatever that level is, I mean, if you're making good money in another business and you want to test something out, that pile of cash that you want to light on fire might be bigger than somebody who's just starting. But the data inside Facebook is so good as far as how people respond to your cold traffic ads, your offers, your landing pages, everything. Read into the data as much as you possibly can. We talk about that a lot on our podcast, Perpetual Traffic, because the vast majority of our campaigns, believe it or not, 70 or 80% of them fail. And you know, it's the 20 or 30% that you know if you're, if you're batting.300 in the major leagues, you're on your way to the hall of fame.

You're solid.

Like I always, yeah, I always joke with my co host, Molly Pittman. Like she. Everything that she ever does is like 500. Like she 50% of her ads. I'm like. You're like, you know, at another level.

Good thing we have her coming on the show soon. We'll. I'm just kidding.

I love the multiple self plugs he just casually threw in there.

Oh, they're gonna get plugged eventually anyway.

It was so subtle.

Seamless plug.

Yep.

Seamless, yet intentional.

Subtly intentional.

He knows what he's doing by mistake.

We have Dan as the co host today.

This is the kind of sass I wanted out of Dan.

That's it.

Keep it coming, brother.

By the way, what was it? Fantastic.

Dan, I'm actually curious from your. Do you ever test anything or do you have some taking what Ralph just said there, do you have your own process?

Yeah, I test stuff.

Very similar.

Right.

So it's not lighting stuff on fire necessarily, but more about the intent is to set up metrics. So whether it's like if it's adwords, I'm looking at. Well, the first, I look at things in steps. Right. So the first step is the keywords and then it's the ad and then it's the landing page and then it's the conversion. Same thing with Facebook. Right. So there's no keyword, it's an ad and you go down the chain and you're just trying to figure out like, well, if you have a crappy ad, it doesn't really matter what happens after the click. So then you're always working down the chain to get to whether it's the landing page and then the opt in rate or the sales page and the purchase rate or whatever.

Yeah.

So try to set, establish some baseline metrics and then see if there's anything there.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Well, it's interesting. So Ralph, from the perspective that you're talking about, you're mostly driving. It sounds like you're mostly focused on working with cold traffic. And then you do a little bit of retargeting as sort of the cleanup, as we call it.

So you're just taking cold interests on Facebook and you're driving them directly to a sales page or are you taking cold interest driving them to like a lead capture page and then Upselling them to the sales page. I mean what, what sort of flow do you recommend people use for the cold traffic?

What do you do at tier 11 agency, Ralph?

There it is.

Tier11.com works with us.

Yeah. What do you do?

Tier11.com agency that worked on Facebook and E commerce and stuff.

We do all that stuff. Dan, thanks for that lead in.

I really appreciate it. Dan, you didn't realize that Ralph actually signed a contract with us, 500 bucks every time he drops that name, anything related. So he owes us quite a bit.

Coming out of your half price for when Dan mentions it though. Yeah, that was the addendum. Yeah. I mean it depends on the industry. So we're focused in the tier 11 agency, Dan, primarily on e commerce companies, but not exclusively. So we started off obviously just from this conversation here. I started off in information products first information product that nobody wanted. But since then I've graduated to customers that actually have products that people want and those are information based. We've got.

A healthy product mix between physical product companies as well as information based companies and then we've got some services and obviously we market our services through Facebook ads as well. But how we actually approach that, it depends. E commerce, let's just start there. We actually have a system called the e commerce ad amplifier that we use. It's a systematic sort of a five level approach to cold traffic to an E commerce store. Now it doesn't matter in that case whether or not you have a sales page or whether you have any sort of promotional type of page or a lead capture. We send traffic directly to maybe a collection page or maybe a homepage in some cases for a lot of our customers. If a customer does have a sales funnel and it always works better, a sales page for the product itself. And then once they click the button to actually go to the product, then it's a product page where they can then add it to cart and then complete the the purchase. So it works. The ecommerce ad amplifier, the way that we set up traffic, it works both ways. But always having some kind of upsell path after the original purchase will raise the average order value and allow us to scale up a whole lot more quickly as opposed to just one off purchases without any sort of real sales funnel. So it really depends. We've got customers on both sides of the equation. We're constantly pushing them to refine their site to, you know, add, you know, upsells after the fact as well as we'll use retargeting to cross sell folks who have already been previous buyers as well as refills, you know, all that. So it sort of depends. So on E commerce you can do it both ways without a sales funnel and with a sales funnel, a sales funnel is definitely, you know, recommended because it's easier on the info side. You know, we'll sell products directly in the newsfeed to like a tripwire, what you guys are probably familiar with or like a self liquidating offer. We like to do that more because with info I tend to think that you can get leads, but I don't really care about leads. I really care about getting our customers sales and customers. And then once they get a customer even it's for their lowest price product or a free/ shipping offer or a book funnel, something that they actually have to plunk down the credit card. Those are the best types of campaigns because we know that we can monetize deeper. Especially if they have multiple products, multiple offers, we know that we can monetize that traffic much more readily. We're geared towards trying to get the sale on Facebook and then retargeting them with a lot of different types of strategies. But then we still have customers that have webinar funnels, you know, straight up sales funnels to a lead magnet, some using lead ads right off Facebook. So it runs the gamut. And I think if you do it a lot of different ways, it actually helps all the other industries kind of for us it helps everything sort of work together really well.

I wanted to dig in really quick on the E. Comm specifically that I know. Matt and I are looking at each other like, kind of like. Yeah, I do too, but profit margins. And we have a lot of folks that reach out to us and kind of, you know, and they have E Comm stores, but they have like $10 watches or something they're selling where there's no profit. Obviously they can have upsells and all that. Is there a specific type of margin that you'd like E Commerce specifically to.

Have or even just a minimum price point that you'd even deal with order value maybe?

Yeah, I mean I always use the metric. And we do this when we're screening new customers to come in through tier 11. I mean, obviously through our podcast, there's a lot of folks that'll say, oh, I want to hire you guys as an agency, but they're not really ready yet.

You throw in our fees on top of that and the fact that they might not have the average order value or the margins to be able to really make it Online, we tend to use 3X as our strategy. If your cost of goods sold is 3 bucks $3.50 and you're selling it for 10, you can probably make it on Facebook with that. That's sort of a minimum requirement. But for us, cost of goods sold, the lower it is and the higher your price is, the better you're going to be able to scale up your traffic. Or if you have a front end offer that maybe self liquidates but then you upsell them after the fact, your average order value has margin, maybe 50, 60, 70% margin after cost of goods sold, you're going to be able to pay more for a customer when you have healthier margins. And maybe you're bundling products together, maybe you're taking that first product and then offering some kind of three, six or some other product that cross sells later on after they purchase. What we try to do is we try and figure out, and then we might even hire outside consultants to help them specifically with this is to up the average order value as much as possible. And it might even be like a little order bump on the order page. It might be something simple as that to finally make the economics work. Because what we're finding is that there are a lot of folks that are selling on Amazon, for example, and their margins aren't that great on Amazon. Obviously when they get to a successful level, Amazon really does look at what they're doing and says, hey, we can do that too, we'll partner with you. And then next thing you know they're basically eating your lunch. We have a lot of those folks that will come over to E Commerce and just talking to Ezra Firestone about this, and he sees it all the time now too, is that. But just because you've had success on Amazon doesn't necessarily equate to doing it on your own with cold traffic. Because your conversion rates on your own Shopify store, your own E Commerce store are going to be far less than on Amazon. And you got to make those metrics work to begin with. So long answer to your question. But we typically will use about 3x as like a benchmark for us and then sort of work the math backwards and figure out how we can use some of the, our systems to add more value, to add more margin through cross selling and upselling other products.

Got it.

So, so you're going for that, that, that 3x sort of what, what percentage of the, let's see, what's the best way to word this? What, what percentage of the final sales price are you Willing to spend on advertising. So if our cost of goods sold is, is 1 third, are you willing to spend like another third per sale? Like what the cost to acquire a customer? What are you shooting for based on those same metrics?

Yeah, every customer is different. But I would say on average, the most successful customers that we have at scale realize that because they have either an upsell path or other offers that they can offer after the initial sale. Once we acquire a customer for them, they just say try and get us to break even. Makes sense at 30 days. Just pay more. Scale up and pay more. Because as you scale up your traffic, your CPAs are going to increase. Your cost per acquisition is going to increase. It's been very rare where we've seen CPAs cost per acquisition decreases as you add more budget. That's great when it happens. It's not typical. But the point is that I think if you've got a longer term vision of your business, you want to be able to acquire a customer in those first 30 days break even. Or most of our customers are looking for like 1-2x in some cases as far as return on ad spend go. So spend a dollar, get $2 out. But then I know I've got a customer, I can resell them, I can sell them into a continuity, I can cross sell them in different products that I have on the back end. In some cases, customers of ours just don't have those back end products. So they're looking for a 3, 4, 5x return on ad spend, which is much more challenging to do unless you've got a killer offer. And again, it comes down to that. I met some guys at a conference I was at a week or so ago and we were talking about traffic and their offer is so damn good and they were on the Inc. 5000 this year and things growing. It's physical products, it's workout products. They get 7 to 8x return on ad spend on Facebook ads. And when I saw their product, I'm like, no wonder it's novel. Nobody has it. So what you can actually get from a return on ad spend has a lot to do with how novel your product is, how good your offer is, as well as what you're sort of forced to do from a cash standpoint as you look at your business. So it varies widely, but I would say 1-2x is reasonable on Facebook, especially with some of the strategies that we teach.

Makes sense. Now this question might be getting into the weeds a little bit and I might be getting our listeners to check Out. But do you ever go in and set the target cost per conversion or are you just going in and basically saying, give me the lowest price clicks, lowest price conversions.

Usually it's a joint agreement. So when we first talk to a customer, they'll tell us what their goals are. So for example, there was one that we were evaluating today whether or not we should do sort of the next step of our onboarding. And their return on ad spend goals were 1.2, basically, you know, spend a dollar and probably like 1.5, include like our fees in there. So they had a realistic expectation.

So we'll typically, if somebody comes to us and says, well, I need a 10x return on ad spend to get Facebook ads to work, I'm like, forget that. And they're selling something that everybody else has.

You know, it's hard to say, but so we'll try to. If the customer for us isn't a good match, their business model just doesn't work, then we'll let them go. But if they're realistic and they've got like a real business, like, you know, our criteria typically is, you know, folks who are spending anywhere from 30 to $50,000 a month on Facebook ads, or they're a multimillion dollar business and they're looking to expand, exploit Facebook as a channel, meaning that they probably have, you know, they have a war chest to spend and to test. Because the first couple of months, once you go on Facebook, you are going to be testing a ton of stuff, a lot of which doesn't work. And you try to get the lowest, you know, cost per acquisition you possibly can. But sometimes it's, it's a challenge.

So it sounds like you're setting them up for success as best you can, you know, trying to in the first month, 30 days or so, get them a nice win, at least break even. I think it's good for an agency owner like you to retain your clients, but it's great for anybody just testing this on themselves too. So using these same metrics to kind of steer the way.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you're already sending some traffic to your site, let's say if you've got an E commerce store, I mean, we start with what we refer to as level five traffic. So that's your people who have already purchased. We start there, get the early win, cross, sell them, upsell them, sell them a refill, whatever it happens to be. Then we sort of move backwards from there. How about all the people that added to cart but didn't buy in the last 7 days, 14 days, 30 days. Then we'll build out that level of traffic. Then we go to level three, which is people who view content or maybe viewed the product, but didn't add to cart and didn't purchase, obviously. So then we'll build out that level of traffic. Then we'll build out the next level of traffic. Maybe somebody who's engaged with your page. It could be your fans, maybe somebody who's clicked to your site, your homepage, your collection page, maybe a landing page, maybe a sales page, but hasn't taken the next step. We'll then build out those ads. And then last, we'll build out the cold traffic ads, because those are the most challenging. Those are the ones where you. So all the while.

You'Re gaining intelligence as to how to approach cold traffic by getting early wins, which is good. I mean, the customer is now making money. They probably haven't looked at it that way or at least approached it that way. But we're gathering intelligence to launch those big campaigns which end up. That's going to be 70, 80% of your traffic anyway, which is on cold traffic, which doesn't know who you are and will typically exclude purchasers or exclude all the warm traffic audiences and then test the hell out of that. That's the trick.

Yes. You're basically starting with, like your bottom of the funnel ads, the most sort of product aware, and then just sort of backing, backing further and further out with each new set of ads.

Yeah, yeah. In a logical progression.

The name Ralph. I can't. We have to pause the five levels. I'm thinking Backflow maximizer.

It's called the E Com Ad Amplifier.

No, that's the other one. Now you have this backflow thing, right? Bottom up.

Oh, bottom up. Bottoms up.

Dan. Dan Ryan's bottoms up strategy.

Oh, God.

I don't know. It's going beer when we're all together.

Backflow Maximizer Academy.

Don't forget matrix. You got to get matrix in there. So much golden circle backflow.

Wait, so how do we get to tier 11, then? Level 11?

What is that?

All go to 11, bitch.

Oh, we can swear on this podcast. Awesome. I've been trying to keep it.

I can.

Yeah, well, we're just going to edit your part.

You edited yourself? I already.

I was like, oh.

Totally.

Hold talk.

I love it.

I can talk clean. Yeah, it's possible, but you don't have to.

Yeah, no. Our podcast is very unedited and unpolished and uncensored.

There's a reason why we Brought Dan.

On, and we're going to launch tier 12 in honor of Tone Brady next.

Tier 12, FYI, that's the mastermind.

Oh, man, you are an idea guy, aren't you? You know what?

I'm here. I should be on this podcast all the time.

I can ship them salads for payment if you wish.

Yeah, I probably owe you some royalties anyway because you did approve the tier 11 name and I helped you push.

It over the edge. Yeah, It's Spinal Tap. And you're like, yes.

I didn't even realize it.

I know. I was like, that's the first thing I thought of.

That's awesome.

Here we are publicly giving you props. I'm here for you.

I love it.

I feel you, brother. I feel you.

So back in the vein of what we were talking about.

Geez, Matt, ruining all the fun here.

I know. I just. I need to.

Somebody's gotta.

I need to bring the room back into control.

So with Facebook ads right now, there's constantly new stuff being rolled out in Facebook all the time. One of the newest things that we've been experimenting with is the campaign level budgeting, which I think is pretty fun. But is there anything that you're seeing right now that you're excited about that's working well? Any sort of like new rollouts or cool things in Facebook ads?

Yeah, I would say.

There'S a lot. I mean, I think Facebook is. Well, obviously they're smart. I mean, there's no doubt about it. But they've been targeting and bringing out new features of the ad platform almost specifically for e commerce companies. And that's one of the reasons why we sort of pivoted towards this direction a few years back. But one of the things I think that's really cool right now is all the different ad types that you've got now with instant experience, which used to be canvas. And it's an area where we're now playing because you don't really have to rely on a landing page and you can do all your pre selling actually in the Facebook feed. That's something that we're really pretty excited about because a lot of our customers don't have 100% are great mobile experiences, or maybe their pages don't load quite as quickly as we want them to because of heavy images or whatever it happens to be. So that's an area where I think just new placements and constantly new tools being rolled out. Campaign budget optimization is one that we were really excited about when it first came out. We haven't had as great of experience with and we're still sort of struggling to figure out exactly where does it fit in. But like the concept, like we've got probably a dozen tests of it going right now, so, you know.

No final decision on that as of yet. But I mean, typically when Facebook rolls out any new feature, they roll it out as a beta, knowing that there's lots of bugs in it. And then if you try it and give up on it, you might actually miss out for a really great tool later on because they start to refine it.

One of the placements that we first tested when it first came out was Instagram and this is three plus years ago. And we used to actually talk on our podcast like Deselect Instagram. Nobody's buying on Instagram now. It's easily 10 plus percent of our total spend on a monthly basis, which is a lot. For Facebook, it's 16 to 17% of their total spend is probably upwards of 20% now. But we see Instagram stories, like the volume that's in Instagram Stories, for example, is enormous.

And we've got a great creative team that knows how to present video in a 15 second format or even a carousel format inside Instagram Stories. And we're finding that those work almost like across the board for any type of customer, whether it's a webinar registration or it's a physical product. There's so much inventory on Instagram right now, we're super excited about it.

Curious, do you have like, do you know, like a simple framework or some criteria to create those ads?

Well, just to preface that we actually experimented with Instagram ads in the past story ads and our cost per click was just, you know, prohibitively too high for us. So we ended up, I've been excluding those, especially when Facebook just wants to throw just like a static image inside of a story with like your text below it. But we don't seem to get much traction on that kind of thing either.

Yeah, I think when we first started using Instagram Stories, we just did face to camera and just swipe up for a webinar registration, then put stickers on it, that kind of thing. We used it that way and immediately started seeing results. Now it was in its separate ad set. It wasn't bunched together like it is now. You can actually use all placements together and then optimize placements for the specific, specific platform. So we found that face to camera ones really did well initially, but now we've since sort of adopted the format knowing that it's A tall. It's a 9 by 16 format and telling some kind of quick story in under 15 seconds.

And it might be sort of a mixture of text with some kind of other image or maybe a little bit of video. And we either sound on or sound off, doesn't really matter. So we've gotten away from. Because a lot of people are just doing the face to camera, but.

Our design team is really good there. So they started to get more and more creative and sort of saying, all right, well here's the offer. Create an Instagram story for it. The output back to us is something that our customers want to then test.

The more movement in Instagram stories, the better. But also you've got to compress your message to under 15 seconds. And for a lot of people, a lot of customers, that's really challenging to do. So if you can get that, if you can get it in and there's actually a resource, let me actually find it for you. But if you search for Creative Shop Facebook ads, Creative Shop will give you a ton of ideas as to how to put together Instagram stories.

Yeah, Facebook Creative Shop is it. We've actually met with these guys and like they're gonna, we're gonna be doing a beta with them where they're actually gonna be helping us create the videos themselves, which is really, we're really excited about that. But yeah, I think whenever something new comes up, you're like, that's cool, but how do I actually use. Was kind of the same way with when Canvas first came out. I was like, these are cool, but how do I actually design the thing? Well, now they have templates for instant experience, which is super helpful for people who didn't really know where to start. Same thing with Creative Shop for Facebook. So definitely check that out and you'll be filled with some good ideas based upon what your offer is.

Yeah. One of the options that I don't think gets enough love from people talking about traffic is the Audience Network. We actually get the absolute cheap. Like if we're just trying to go traffic and get a ton of traffic. Audience Network seems to be where it's at. Have you had similar experiences with Audience Network?

I think it's. Dan and I actually talked about this way back when, when they first started Audience Network. I think it's great for pure pre engagement content. So it depends on if you're going for a lead or a sale. It's all across the board when it comes to that. Sometimes we deselect it, sometimes we keep it on because it's getting some impressions, but not costing a whole lot. But if you have a piece of pre engagement content, like for tier 11, how we actually promote the agencies, we do it like pure content first. And Audience network is fantastic. I mean, people are clicking through and engaging and then, you know, filling out our lead form. So I've actually found it to be really useful there. But, you know, as we always talk with our Facebook partner manager, I mean, she advocates, you know, keeping all placements on at all times and we start that way. But then once you run some traffic to it, you know, you have to look at your data and figure out, all right, am I spending, you know, my $100 daily budget every day on audience? Not getting any conversions there, but I'm getting it all on mobile and desktop and right hand column or maybe even Instagram. Then if your data is just screaming, it's just wasting your money. Turn it off. Turn it off. Definitely. So we always test it up front, but like I said, for pure content play, I found it to be really, really helpful.

Yeah. Have you. I know I'm totally getting in the weeds with this conversation, so I bet most of our listeners are checking out.

By now, but I'll make it nerdier.

Audience Network is basically the equivalent of modified broad on AdWords. So it's outside the funnel, really. But since you have some interest targeting, if you send them to a page and maybe put a content view conversion on that page, then you can build that audience that way. So you're outside the funnel, kind of pulling them in.

Yeah. Spreading the net a little bit.

No, that's smart.

Are you going to ask Matt?

I was curious about.

That's my cue to go.

One smart thing.

Give me a sec.

Have you experimented with dynamic creatives at all? Because this is something that we're playing with right now and I'm not sure how I feel about it because I can't quickly at a glance see what's working. I know I can get into the breakdowns and stuff, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on the dynamic creative where you can essentially have like five variations of text copy, you know, four or five variations of images, four or five variations of the actual headline, and then Facebook is just going to kind of rotate through them for you and try to optimize based on all of those. How much testing have you done with that kind of stuff?

We love the idea of it because it allows you in essence, what, 30 variations, I believe, of your one ad, you know, if you use all the variations. So in Some cases we don't use it because, like our ad copy and our creative, if we have, you know, different images for different avatars, we won't mix them together. So we try and keep like our interest, targeting in alignment with the ad as much as possible. But, you know, sometimes we'll throw in, like if we've got an avatar for, for moms and then another one for, I don't know, accountants for the same product, which, believe it or not, we actually had a customer that those were their two avatars. The different types of ad copy, if you mix them together inside, dynamic creative might not work for you. What we found is that the copy limitations sometimes do get in the way. But we've used it extensively. But it hasn't worked the way that we, that we've wanted it to work. For whatever reason. It just like the reporting on it isn't great. Once you actually figure out what that combination of ad copy or post copy, I suppose image, headline.

Description is, there's no way to really make it into one campaign and sort of take that data, boil it down seamlessly, and then have the campaign continue. So what we end up doing now is just doing a bunch of different ad sets and then we'll throw in three to six ads, different images, maybe the same copy, some kind of variation inside the ad set level, kind of like old school, the way we used to do it three, four years ago, because we went through a period of doing just hyper testing, which we refer to as the Michigan method, where we would do one ad per ad set, but each ad set would have a different variation of the ad with the same interest or the same targeting. So we've gotten away from that a lot and kind of gone back to the way that we used to do things three years ago, which is a couple of ad sets, just our own copy and creative, and just spinning them that way. Because Facebook now, if you have enough traffic in an ad set and you put in three to six ads, they'll typically show most of those ads, I mean, depending on what your, your budget is. Obviously the more budget, the more they'll show all the ads. And then we'll fold in new creatives on top of that new ads. Because we've definitely seen as a huge trend is that if you're spending a fair amount, budget wise, you got to swap out your creatives like at least a couple of times a month, if not once a week, you know, because the audiences just get tired really, really fast. Yeah, so. So dynamic creatives. Yeah, we still test It, I just, I don't know, it's like one of those things that Facebook came out with. We were so excited about it. Now it's kind of like eh, yeah.

I mean between the Dynamic Creatives and then the campaign level budgeting, I don't know their technical term for it. I already forgot. But between those two things, I was, I was getting excited because I was like, oh man, this kind of makes things like at Espresso and Kawaia sort of obsolete. You just do it right from within the platform. But it sounds like there's still probably a little bit of work, a little more to be desired in those two things.

Yeah, I think so. I think Dynamic Creatives is the first iteration of it. And Facebook knows, they know that testing and they once told us this at a high level meeting. They said they're like, well, why are you guys always use the Michigan method? You know, I'm like, you're creating 180 AD sets and you're duplicating your audiences and you're doing 12 different variations of an ad. I'm like, well you guys tell me a better way to test quickly as far as like audience ad and creative combo. And they're like, you're right, we don't have anything good.

So they added those in as a result of you telling them it's all you. We can.

Thank you.

Yeah, it was actually, it was Dan. Dan was there.

Nice.

He's exited the building. So high level.

Yeah, that's me.

That's me. He's the brains, he's the idea guy. But no, they knew that they didn't really have a good way of testing because that front end ad is the thing that can make the big difference, like just one tweak of the ad copy or an image or whatever. All of a sudden your lead costs get lower, your CPAs get lower. It's like they realize that we need as advertisers a better way to test. And I think Dynamic Creative is the first iteration of it. Test and learn, which is another sort of way of doing it, is another iteration of it. But I think it's going to get.

Better.

As long as they keep wanting to improve the platform, which it certainly seems like they will.

I kind of wish that Dynamic Creative, you go in and you set all your variables and then it just created 15 ads for you and you see them all within the ad set. I think that'd be a better way of doing it.

But yeah, the problem though is that it's, I mean I don't know if you guys run multivariate tests, but it's basically, they're building dynamic multivariate test. You need a crapload of data to come up with a winner.

Right.

So you have to be prepared to burn money for sure just to get to a winning creative. So I don't know if you should do that up front. Right up front. You should probably do a more mechanical sort of testing and then get a winner and then go in and maybe do AB in the beginning and then later maybe try to take that to multivariate and see and if it doesn't work, you can kind of roll back.

To your A. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, right now we have a few campaigns that we are running the dynamic campaigns on or the dynamic adds on. So we're trying to see, trying to see how it plays out, but we're not putting huge budgets behind it, which is probably going to be problem, you know, problematic.

Well, it's like a big, it seems like a big elaborate split test happening. Yeah, yeah.

So to that point, then you would let that run forever. Right? So if you do a B or multivariate, sometimes you run those and you just push 10% of the traffic at it. Like if you're using visual website optimizer, right. You can control the level of traffic. You're basically doing that.

But with budget. Yeah, that's a pretty ninja tactic. We've tested that before, which is very cool. I think Facebook.

What I would love to see is you use as many of the optimization tools that they give you as possible to leverage the algorithm, Meaning campaign budget optimization. You set your campaign budget at 100 bucks, you know, and you run three distinct interests at three different ad sets or maybe a larger budget, and then you've got maybe five variations, or Dynamic Creative has like 12 variations of each one of your ads. And then as it learns, then Facebook whittles down, like which combination of the ad, which ad set, which interest, they do the optimization for you. And that hasn't happened yet. It's still like they give you the data. All right, well, headline one is doing this, but there's like nothing you can. There's no actionable part to it. So I think that's coming because there's a lot of third party platforms that do do that. You have to pay for them. But I think Facebook realizes, yeah, if we can get our advertisers, we can make it easy for them to test multiple variations of an ad. We know the platform's going to work Better for them and leveraging the algorithm at the same time. So I think it's coming. I just don't think it's there yet.

I think that's smart. Now I want to shift it over to a pretty obvious topic because you have Molly on your podcast with you. But Chatbots, I know there's so many talks about this, but are there any methods that you would like to share here that are working really well, pairing up something like ManyChat with Facebook ads?

Yeah, ManyChat is the provider that we use. I think it's much easier to use than I think. When I first started using it, I thought it was actually kind of complex. And now they've made it so that the platform is really super easy to use.

And you can set up really basic campaigns in there, or you can get pretty complex if you have multiple flows. We use ManyChat. We use messenger as our primary lead flow inside our agency. I don't have an autoresponder series. I don't have infusionsoft. It's all manychat. And all our leads come in that way. I think that you just have to get in and actually test out some of the growth tools. For us, one of the tools that we use right now is delivery of a lead magnet. We use what's referred to as the JSON growth tool, which is basically like a click to messenger ad. And those are working really, really well. I mean, for us, just because I think like the old school way of just going lead magnet or webinar registration, it's like a new sort of twist on it and it's not hard to set up at all. And I think that that one type of growth tool, that's basically how they describe it inside manychat. You go in there, it's like, here's all your growth tools, but these are the things that you will use as ads with ManyChat in the background or non ads. There's lots of ones that are non ads. But if you're interested in getting into Facebook Messenger, I would start with the JSON ads inside manychat and just try it out. Maybe test it against your lead magnet or test it against your webinar registration.

I found that it works really, really well. And then once you start getting some confidence with it, but then you can build out longer and longer flows, which to us are like, you know, email sequences sort of, but in a very different kind of way. And manychat has really, really good training too.

Yeah, they do. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's all Free. And the service is like super cheap too.

Yeah, it's like what, 10 bucks a month or something?

Yeah, it's.

It's crazy, but yeah. And I think Molly does the bulk of the training over there. Quite a bit of it. Yeah. And she has a killer course on that. But definitely. Yeah, I mean, we see the same and we've used it for over a year now and a lot of that time was not with automated sequences. It's pretty much for what you're saying. Like we did that with retargeting ads when people abandoned carts. We actually just had an ad running straight to messenger to answer any questions they might have had.

So cool. That tool right there is like where we started with it. I was like, man, that's cool.

When you run these ads that are trying to get somebody to message you, what does one of those ads look like? What kind of image and ad copy would you use to try to get somebody to message you?

We would use really a lot of the same kind of images that we would use in regular ads. Believe it or not. The call to action is just slightly different. Your call to action button says send message as opposed to learn more.

So the front facing ad, if you saw a Messenger ad versus a regular lead ad or a learn more kind of ad, they wouldn't look different. And the call to action is pretty much straightforward because people kind of know to click an image and they know to click the button in the lower right hand corner if it's on mobile or desktop. So yeah, they don't look altogether dissimilar, quite honestly.

Yeah, no, that makes sense. And it's all with the follow up after that. I know we did a lot of manual chats after the fact, but you can get fancy. And this is where we're starting to do it now is automate some of the pre questions. Once they click over to try to just answer their questions immediately before kicking it over to a support person.

Yeah, I mean that's probably really the best way to build out a mini chat sequence is do something really basic, get in there yourself and answer people's questions as they come in. Then once you start to see trends, then automate the answering of the questions that you see.

Trends around 100% going back to Sales Management Mastery when nobody wanted what I had to sell. It's like, don't build out this whole sequence. Just start with one thing and see if people like that. And if they like that, then you're like, all right, if they don't like it, you can Give up and go home. But no, try something else, obviously. But the point is that with all our manychat sequences, we start with one thing and it's typically like one JSON ad or maybe some variants of it. You know, in the format that I just talked about, like one ad set, we might have three or six variations of that same ad. But then see if people actually like what you have. If you have a lead magnet that people want and that's getting leads on your site or on a landing page, just translate that over to, you know, a Facebook ad into messenger and see what your lead cost is. I would almost guarantee you if get something that's doing well lead cost wise in a regular website conversion ad. If you did a Messenger ad, your cost would be much less, if not half, just because it's novel and people and you're responding or you're following up with them in a novel way. People check messenger all the time and once you get that lead, you're like, oh, this is something somebody wants. I have no follow up. That's okay. Then figure out how to follow up with them after the fact.

Yeah.

So one thing, a lot of people.

Just did something like. So we did a thing where there was a post on Facebook that we were putting up every week. And then I was like, literally like a weekly basically contest. But you know, we didn't have contest software or anything hooked up to it. But I had really high engagement and I'm like, huh, wonder what would happen if I turned that into a Messenger thing and then did the JSON like comment and then launch Messenger. So to Ralph's point, the first step was, well, what will happen if I do that? So I did that and then people were joining the bot. Get them to join the bot. It was like, hey, do you want to know who the winner is? Then they ascent to the bot, they're on the list, and then we announce the winner through the bot. Then I was like, well, I've got this email sequence that I know works in infusionsoft. I wonder if I can get people to give me their email address. After they say they want to find out who the winner is, we asked them like two or three questions. Are you a customer? No. Hey, would you be interested in this headline from the opt in page that they're never going to see? Yeah, okay, great. Give us your email address. Then that zaps over to infusionsoft. And I think I duplicated the sequence in Infusion. So I had a totally separate set of data. Now I know Everyone that enters that came from Manychat to Ralph's point. The opt in cost is like 1/7 of what I pay through AdWords or whatever.

Yeah.

And I mean it's pretty ninja too because like in Minichat, when you ask the question, can I get your email address? Manychat will actually pre populate their email address. All they have to do is click it and it sends it to them. They don't even have to type their email address.

Yeah.

So cool. And it's their best email address.

Yeah. I mean it's the one they use with Facebook. And another thing that's really cool about Minichat that I don't think a lot of people totally know is that the response you get on manychat is insane. I mean, every time we send a broadcast it's like 98% read rate and like 50% click through rate. I mean.

You'D pay good money to get an email list that gets that kind of response. And chances are you probably still won't get that kind of response out of an email list. Probably.

Oh God, no.

That's why we don't have an email follow up. I'm like, should I. I'm like, we don't really need it. Yeah, I mean the response rates, the open rates inside manychat are still great. I mean, you still have to provide solid content for them. So as a part of our sequences, we will send them or ask them question. If they're sort of disengaged and they've said sort of no to part of the flow, we'll then throw content back to them and say, hey, I just got this blog post. Are you interested in reading it? Kind of thing, like simple stuff like that to re engage them, yes or no or they don't respond, but just that unto itself, the response rates, I mean, I don't think email can match it at this point.

No.

We've actually started feeding our podcast into mini chat. We actually, once somebody gets into our mini chat system, I think three or four days after they're in our mini chat, they get an automated message that says, hey, we can actually deliver new episodes to you straight here on Facebook. Do you want to be notified when new episodes are live? And if they click yes, it tags them with a podcast RSS tag. And anybody with that tag, every single time a new episode is released, an automated message goes out to let them know that there's a new episode. So we're actually using that mini chat sequence to actually drive listeners to our podcast as well.

That's great. And it all started with just one first step and figuring out if it works and if it responds. And now you're reaping the rewards of it. And you obviously have content that you can follow up with them on. I mean, it really is a continuation of a conversation with somebody. I think as long as people are using it, don't abuse the system. And Facebook's really. I would imagine they're probably going to have more regulations with regard to messenger coming on down the line. But right now it's still in its infancy and we advocate it, obviously using it for the agency. And now we're adding it as a service to our customers that are at higher levels of spend. But we also want to start offering it as just sort of part of our overall service because it's just one more tool that you can use. It's another tool in the toolbox. Why not use it? And we've seen it to be so effective.

And how often are you broadcasting, just out of curiosity, or is it all automated?

It depends. I mean, we've got some customers that just do it manually, like once a week. I would say that the average cadence is probably about once a week. We don't like just because we haven't gone much further than that. I don't know if that's the right amount. I mean, you know, you opt into an email sequence from Digital Marketer, you get like three emails a day. So is it that or is it once a week? I don't know. I mean, I think probably once a week is conservative. But if you've got valuable content that they is related to or a continuation of their previous action, they opted into a lead magnet about generating leads or whatever it is or building their business. And you've got a podcast that talks about that. Well, why wouldn't you send that to them? So I think the way that you guys are doing it is smart because that's how you develop that relationship, continue the conversation going. And ultimately the end goal is to turn them into a customer.

Very cool. Now, I feel like we could probably go on for another hour, so if you're up for it, we may want to do a round two sometime in the future, if you're open to it. Because we didn't even touch on Show Up. What's that?

No, we would have to have Dan on.

We didn't even get to touch on all the stuff we wanted.

That's good.

It's on record.

Dan's welcome back as well. Hey, Dan, was there. Was there any Questions you wanted to ask Ralph while you had this opportunity to talk to Ralph?

Once in a lifetime chance.

Ralph, who is this?

Jennifer. Jennifer Sorrenti, who left a glowing review on your book on Amazon.

She is a paid reviewer and just so happens to be my wife.

Oh, I did not know that.

Called out.

There's a tiny bell ringing.

Oh, man.

Just like everyone. Avatar on Facebook. More related.

You may recognize her from my Facebook feed.

She was the only person who read that book, by the way.

And left a review.

Left a review. Exactly.

Hey, she was motivated behind that review. Right then.

That is a woman right there.

That's it.

I just want to make sure Dan gets all the opportunity to ask Ralph questions while we have him.

No, I asked. We talk. Ralph and I are friends.

That was a joke.

I don't think Dan's getting the sarcastic nature of that question now.

We were talking about my buddy Ezra Firestone. That Ralph to keep me from. That's a different story.

Yeah, well, you know, he was a great friendiversary, but, I mean, I figured I would, you know, I would, you know, sort of break the ice and just call Angela Ponsford, my, you know, greatest friendiversary, just to, like, jokes. Now, I know both you and Ezra were pissed about that. So, anyway, he's over it now. He's, you know.

We have him on.

Yeah, it's some therapy. Yeah.

All right, I do want to know if Ralph's coming to here now we'll plug. Are you coming to the overtime 2019 traffic conversion event, Ralph?

If I'm invited.

You are officially invited.

You're a VIP.

I'm pretty sure tier 11 is a sponsor.

I think they've been there like that. We've been a sponsor the last two years, but no one's ever sent me a bill, so. Anyway, that's the building administrative, Daniel.

Yeah, well, let me get with the Gallup. Done.

Building department.

I'll be there. If you have beer there, I'll be there.

All right, well, if you're listening podcast listeners, be there.

And we got to do another jam session, too, if the bunker's still available for jam sessions.

It is.

Yeah. Blow the roof off that place again. That was pretty good.

All right, Ralph, where should people go find and learn more from you?

Well, sounding like I've already thrown in a couple of shameless, you know, on purpose plugs.

Salesmanagementmastery.com.

Yeah, go there.

Don't go there.

Via the Wayback Machine.

Yeah, I was going to say the Wayback Machine will definitely pull up Some gold.

It's a good logo, though. Check out the logo on that site. Like thousands on that stupid. No, go to tier 11. T I E R spell out 11.com and that's where we're at. You can also, you know, if you want to check out the podcast that we have. It's perpetual traffic on itunes, Stitcher, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. So you can check us out there. Yeah. If you want to work with us, there's a work with us page. You can go in there and fill out a form and figure out whether there's a match. But yeah, Tier 11 is the place where we're at. We post pretty regularly on our Facebook page and we even have a blog now on tier 11. So, yeah, seriously, Content marketing. Content marketing.

Welcome to the 90s.

I know.

Podcast and a blog.

Amazing.

Check him out. Ralph's amazing. His team's great. And Dan recommends you, too. So, you know, glowing reviews from Dan Ryan.

Always good to hear.

Didn't I book this podcast? I mean, come on.

Probably. Probably. Why not?

Isn't that what our booking agent is supposed to do?

That's true.

Administrative.

Sorry, Admin. All right, guys, it's been fun. We'll do it again.

Thank you.

Maybe every beer.

Thanks for having me on, guys. Appreciate it.

Anytime. See you later.

See ya.

All right, thank you. And I hope you just enjoyed this episode you just listened to. Now, right now, before we sign off, I have a few things I would love for you to do. So the very first thing is to go find our guest on Facebook and tell them that you loved their episode with us. That that's going to help them just feel good about themselves, but also it's going to spread the word a little bit more for us. So go find them on Facebook. Everybody's on Facebook. And go say that you love their episode and maybe one cool thing that you learn there. The second thing is to go to itunes and subscribe to our podcast. Just look up Hustle and Flowchart and hit the subscribe button. And the very last thing, the third thing, is to leave us a review on itunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast and help us spread the word more. That's how more people are going to get this awesome knowledge, this. This cool podcast training, and a whole bunch of other cool, free training that we give out@evergreen profits.com. so that's about it. Go find them on Facebook, go subscribe on itunes and leave us a review. You would be amazing if you did that. But you're always amazing. So thanks for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.

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