Rich Schefren - The Secrets of Being Rich

There's a difference between a strategy that is new that you should be using in your business versus a just a shiny object. Right. And I think a lot of people have difficulty when looking at something determining whether it's one or the other. But it's kind of critical because the times when my business has grown the most or the businesses that I've interacted with is oftentimes with a breakthrough. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. Wiki wiki Wiki.

What is happening?

Welcome back.

We're back. We're back with a friend of ours and a mentor of ours. This is one of the very first guys that we followed online, like in Internet marketing when we first were getting the momentum started.

Yeah. Well, his Internet marketing manifesto ebook was like one of the very, very, very earliest ebook, which in retrospect might have been a little bit more technical than my abilities at the time, definitely for me, but it was a big entry point. And Rich Sheffrin, who is our guest today, which I don't think we named him yet, he is known as the guru to the gurus and I've only ever known him as the guru to the gurus and so that's how we've always looked at him. So it's a great honor to get to chat with him and rub elbows with him these days.

It is. And we've had him on the show a couple times, times before this. So you probably have seen his name pass through the podcast. But this one is kind of an off the cuff chat and we really dive deep into some of the latest stuff. He's up to the model that he has a whole membership site that's similar to the model that we have. But you'll hear his perspective and what he's doing. It's interesting. He's very open with how he thinks about everything there and, and some of the other cool stuff he's up to. Jay Abraham. He's doing something, something interesting that's towards the end of the episode. I'll just kind of leave that there for you. But you're going to get a lot from this one. He's just a brilliant strategic thinker and if you, and you definitely, you should follow what he's doing. The best way to do that is@strategic profits.com and I highly suggest you join one or two of those things. Join his Facebook group for one, but also Steal Our Winners is absolutely phenomenal. Yeah, and we've been in there, featured a couple times, about to record another time. It's just, it's awesome.

So, yeah, yep. This, this episode, it's a very wide ranging conversation that's going to take you from, you know, his dealings with Agora, his membership site, clubhouse, writing a book, just all sorts of all over the place. Just this is the conversation we'd have with Rich if we were sitting down at a bar with him. Just catching up and finding out what he's up to. So you're going to love this one. Uh, before we jump over, I just want to remind you our Pod Hacker course should be live right now. Uh, we are opening it and closing it, and I believe it's in an open window right now. So if you go to podhacker.com, you can learn the new way of using a podcast to build a tribe, grow your business and create multiple streams of income by simply copying our plug and play Pod Hacker system.

Boom. That's podhacker.com so like it. And also, also, just really quick, before we dig into the episode, get the action guides to this episode here as well, because it is wide ranging, but there are some nuggets you don't want to miss some gold. So if you go to some Rich nuggets, they are. And definitely you signed off on that. I'm sure if you go not, you can go to Pot Hacker too, but this, in this case, for these notes, go to flowchart group.com and plug in your email address. Within two weeks of this episode going live, you will get them for free@flowchartgroup.com.

Yes.

That's all.

Let's go talk to Rich.

All right, we're rolling. Rich, it's time. Was episode number three. You've been with us now, huh?

Awesome.

Number three. Yeah. I was like, I kind of blanked out. I'm like, oh, we had you and Jay together when we were talking about Master of Passive Income, and that was kind of a unique session. Wasn't really a lot of talking with you. It was more Jay forward that time. Yes. And then what? Prior to that, we were chatting all about the crazy big tech leading up to the launch of this wild 24 hour live stream that you did in Florida.

Was it second the last big event of 2020?

Dude, crazy. Yeah. I'm like, I recognize this backyard. So you're sitting in your backyard. It looks freaking amazing. Smoking a cigar. Hell yeah.

Enjoying life.

Well, man, I mean, what's. What's been. I mean, we've been going back and forth a lot since that last launch that you had of Steal Our Winners. And I mean just thanks for having us out there. I just want to give you gratitude here publicly because it was just opened our eyes to, well, Florida. Because Matt's never been to Florida. At least that part of it.

Well, I'd only ever been to Orlando.

Other than that, it's always Orlando. It's like you took us to a beautiful place.

Yeah.

But just the fact, the way you ran that live stream and launch and you made it an event for the participants but also outside of the event I thought was super unique and you just had a killer team. So thanks for that and I hope other people.

Oh, my pleasure. And we'll be doing it again this year. We've just got to lock down dates, you know, so we'll figure it out soon.

Can't wait. Is that going to be another Steal Our Winners type thing on the back end of that?

Yeah, totally. And you know, so many people like guests who were on told me that they got a lot of business done like being there. So because of that especially I want to do it again just so that like we kind of create an event where a lot of people can get together and do business. Because there's really not very many of those anymore. Like there used to be a long time ago, like big seminar. Right. Like where. And then traffic and conversion and maybe like traffic and conversion will be back in action where everyone will be at. But if I feel like if I can get mine like a couple months before that. Yeah, do it then we should probably have a good show up. Right. So yeah, so that. And the idea was to do it next weekend. But um, originally it was going to be Funnel Hacker Live. So we didn't do it for next weekend because I turned 50 next weekend. And so what I wanted to do was do a 50 hour live stream and end the live stream on when? Like at 1201 on my birthday. Right. Like. But yeah, it's not going to happen now. I have to wait till I'm 60.

I don't know.

You would too because I remember after 24 hours you were lit. I think you stayed up another, I don't know, while longer.

You somehow had more energy as the thing went on than less. I feel like you, you actually the energy ramped up as it got deeper.

Yeah, it's hard when you pull all nighters and stuff. At least for me. Like I always get a second wind. And then like, you know, we had the mastermind, the Day of. Right. Like, then started the live stream that night, then went 24 hours. So I was already. I was up for like 48 hours by the time we finished because then we all went out for dinner and I was wide awake at dinner. And then like, after that, you know, you have adrenaline running like, you know, about like the last 36 hours. So even then it's like, yeah, it takes a little while to kind of wind down.

Yeah, I probably slept for a week after that.

I'm curious about the sort of behind the scenes of that event. I mean, you guys managed to get pretty much like the who's who in the sort of digital marketing world out there. Like, what went into getting those people out there? Was it sort of hurting cats to get that group of people out there or was it easier than you anticipated? Just kind of curious.

No. Yeah, it was much easier than I anticipated. For the most part. There were a few people who were really difficult. Won't mention their names, but there were a few people that were really difficult. But most people were really easy. And I would say that the bummer of the event was that, like, I had done a 24 hour livestream back in 2008 with no guests, just me at my desk for 26 hours, actually, because I. At the 24 hour mark, I was like, if we can get X number of people on, I'll keep going. Right? And then I did that again. So it was 26 hours and then I just pulled the plug after 26 hours because, like, we were starting to experience some technical difficulties. And after 26 hours, you have a little less patience. So I was like, I don't want to lose my temper on here. So I would have done like a Bill O'Reilly, like, don't do that. Go on. But the. So, yeah, so we had about like 30,000 people when I did it myself in 2008, and we got 30,000 because we made a big deal about it. And so the intention with the live stream that you guys were on was for this to be like, epic, like, huge. And then we had problems with Agora's like, affiliate program. Right. So pretty much I didn't really ask anyone to promote after, like, I saw how bad it was. We didn't run any media for it. And we had challenges with legal all the way through, which made no sense because we made no claims. Like, we didn't say that you would make an extra dollar if you showed up on the live stream. So there really shouldn't have been any legal problems. They were giving Me a lot of grief about, like, I'd say something about Google, but, like, anything I said about Google was in the New York Times or in the Wall Street Journal. I wasn't making stuff up, right? Like, so. But, like, when legal had a problem, we'd have to redo the video, and then we'd redo the video, then I'd have another problem with something that was already in the video before that they could have told us about. Like, so we ended up having about the same amount of people on the live stream, like about 30,000 in total, which to me was, like, incredibly disappointing because, like, I had done that on my own. And so that was, like, the beginning of me having some issue with the way, like, I felt like Agora was managing the business. Because, like, I had been. I've been consulting to agora for, like, 15 years, right? So when I sold half my business, I then started making less than I've ever made in the last 20 years because I was still getting paid as a consultant to Agora, but now they were running my business and they weren't doing it very well. So even when my business was being not run, like, just it was making me money. Like, now I had sold half of it to Agora and now they were running it and, like, losing money because they had spent all the money, like, you know, to make the livestream good, but then spent no money or any resources on actually getting traffic. Right? And it's. It's a little bit frightening, right, when you have a partner that has very deep pockets who also spends money only on the things that don't bring in money. Because then it's like your partner's like, hey, we lost a couple hundred thousand on that. Your share is X. And I'm like, what? Like, so. So, yes, so I bought the business back, like, and we've been in the. I still am a consultant to Agora, so I'm just a consultant, not a partner. But we bought it back, like, I think as of, like, September or so of last year. But, like, the transition took several months, so we're finally, like, as of, like, last month, I'd say, like, kind of masters of our own destiny, which is kind of nice.

Yeah. Well, you still have the what the Daily Insider secrets. And I remember, I think you missed. I don't know, maybe there's like a gap of two days or something like that in that transition. And I think that's what triggered me. I was like, wait, something's different here. And this email looks similar, but slightly different.

Well, that's how you know you're doing something right with email.

Right.

Is if somebody takes notice. Like, wait a second, I haven't received an email in two days from this person.

Yeah, well, and you know, like at Agora, their systems are so antiquated that like to send an email you need someone to do HTML hard coding for every email. Like there are email senders. That's all they do for a job at Agora. Right. So obviously with our four people right now at strategic profits, we cannot afford one of them to be a full time email sender. That would kind of like no market.

Yeah, yeah. So we've got to have more of a templated approach, I guess.

Yeah, man. Well, what are some big moves that you're doing? So you seem a lot leaner now, you know, at strategic profits, your company, you brought back Steeler winners. So the model, that's a recurring product. Right.

Well, you know, when I originally launched it, so I think we've talked about this, but you know, Agora gotten to almost close to the $2 billion in sales primarily by having a newsletter as the front end. And then 2000 to $5000 backends.

And then all the newsletters are sold by premium. When you advertise a newsletter, you can't really advertise what's coming because you don't know what's coming. But you still want people to want to buy right now. So the only way that you can really do that is to have something that satisfies immediate gratification and also something that's relevant and timely to the current moment. So that's why, like at Agora, like most newsletters are sold by premium and you know, a bonus. And so the first half of the sales letter is all about this premium that you get for free. And then when you subscribe to whatever. Right. So my goal at Agora with strategic profits was to build it into $100 million business. And at Agora, for a financial business, give or take, like 100,000 subscribers will support a $60 million business. So 100,000 paid subscribers of a newsletter that is $49 a year will kick off about 60 million, like in back end sales and everything else. And so my thought was, because the lifetime value is higher in Internet marketing than it is in financial, that if we got 100,000 subscribers, we would have $100 million business. And then it was like, okay, well if we're going to have $100 million business, we'll probably need a few gurus, not more than one Right. And so what kind of front end product could support multiple gurus and also spin off premiums left and right? That's part of like the concept of steal our winners. Like that was built into it from the get go. I don't have the same aspirations to build strategic profits into $100 million business if I'm doing it with my.

At Agora, like, you know, they don't mind going six months negative. So to sell a $50 a year newsletter, like even if it costs $200 to make that sale or 250 to make that sale, that's okay. But you know, If I'm selling 10,000amonth at $50 a year and it cost me 250, then I'm losing $200 a sale, which means I'm losing $2 million a month in cash until it, until 6, until the six month mark. Right. So Agora, you can do that all day long at Agora, as long as the stats like check out. Because they have very deep pockets. But I do not have pockets that.

Yeah, my arms are a lot shorter, so I can't reach all the way deep into my pocket.

Love that. Don't.

Because I'm Jewish. Yeah, the Jew and me. So the, So I made it $50 a month, right. Because like now our goal is not to have 100,000 subscribers at $50 a year. It's to have potentially 10,000 subscribers at $50 a month. And so a lot of changes like as it relates to that and then it's a lot more about how do we make the experience as fantastic as we can in every way. And I think we have a long way to go there. Like, I would say that like we're, we're delivering really great stuff, but, but the way it's delivered, it could be a lot, lot better. And so we're working on a lot of stuff like that.

It's, it's gotten a lot better since the first iteration. I know it moved to a whole new members area and I mean, we have some pretty baller membership folks listening. There's one guy in particular, Chris. He knows who he is. He might be able to help you out if you need some help on that front too.

So yeah, we'd love to talk to anyone that is, I mean, what we're talking about right now is developing a challenge a month for members. So there'd be a challenge each month. We would take that challenge and sell it externally as well as a way of acquiring new customers.

And then also creating these packets or marketing stacks. Or whatever you want to call them, where we basically start packaging different segments into based on the outcome. So we've done like nine different steal our winner segments on improving webinar performance. And you know, from everything from like Dave D. Giving the structure, the ideal structure for how you should do the presentation to Onix and Gal, like figuring out a way to reduce the cost per registrar, cost per registration and increase the show up rate at the same time. Plus a bunch of other people like Felicia Bagesh who talked about like how to repurpose the webinar into a bunch of different other things that drive traffic to the webinar. So we did like nine different segments related to webinars. So I want to package those as just like all the secrets to improving your webinar. Or another one being like how to get your first ad working in Facebook and YouTube. Another one like on like how to increase cart value. Right. Like, and basically have these packages that we offer as premium when you, you know, when you, when someone buys. Because like at this point now we've been doing it for a year, so we have about 110 or so steal our winner, Steal our winners segments in total. So you know, there's a lot that we can repackage and create and like that's where we want to go with a bunch of it.

Yeah, so it'd be kind of like the. So this is something that I saw James Wedmore was doing a few years back that I thought was sort of smart. He would bundle stuff like that and he would go and say, okay, do you want this webinar bundle? It's $99. Or join our membership at $49 a month and you'll get the bundle. So doing that kind of thing is sort of what you had in mind.

Yeah, that and.

Leveraging the fact that like the one on webinars, right. Is got like if there's nine, seven of the people, let's say are highly recognizable, like gurus in their own right. They're all contribut contributing to this and sharing their secrets as it relates to just that issue. Right. So I think yeah, that's kind of the idea there. And we could be repurposing them in many different ways. And then I'm talking to Felicia Pagesh right now because she might end up doing the challenges internally as well as externally and then potentially also create courses where she fills in any missing pieces, but using the interviews as well in that way so that we just start repurposing this in as many ways as Possible and also figuring out ways where, when we do a challenge based on a contributor, that we are also feeding that contributor all the leads so that they can sell them other stuff. Because our goal is just to get people into Steal Our Winners, right? Like, and if someone shared a tactic with us that we're going to use as a challenge, it's only fair that they benefit. Right? Like, you know, so, like, the goal is, you know, with everything that we do, the goal is to get great stuff for our subscribers to make it insanely worthwhile for the contributor, which I feel like we can do a lot more there. Right. And then for our business.

Yeah, yeah.

So the goal is just to make it so that people, like, are.

Like, you know, jump at the opportunity. Right. And the thing that we have that we're most excited about right now, I'd say, like, in that, in our promotion stuff, is the. Is the deal that we signed with Groove, which is, you know, the Steal Our Winners Groove edition that's launching this month. And that will probably add about 10,000 or so subscribers, which is like another 10,000 marketers that, you know, next time you guys are on, you'll be exposed to that, you know, I didn't have access to before, so.

So you're doing integration, marketing in that. In that kind of way. That's awesome.

Yeah. So, yeah, so Steel, it's going into the Groove funnel, which has a couple thousand people going through it every day as a dollar trial. And I'm in conversation right now with the guys from Build, Grow and Scale about possibly doing a Steal Our Winners E commerce, just, you know, solely E commerce version.

Which, you know, I wouldn't do on my own because I just don't feel like I have enough of knowledge of that. A lot more people, a lot more knowledgeable than I am about E Commerce. So I'd want to do it with a partner that is E commerce, like, heavy. Right? So that's at least the thought there. But it's such a great. It's so great to be able to leverage other people's distribution channels and provide them with something like, you know, with. With Groove, we're giving them a whole new profit center. Right. Like, you know, and it would be the same with Build, Grow and Scale. So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff between, you know, trying to get a female guru to really be more the face of Steal Our Winners, like external, because for whatever reason, I seem to repulse women when it comes to selling content at least, and I think that would probably be helpful I've been told that everything I like, like, is highly masculine. Like, the colors for steel, like, for the csib, which was red, yellow, and black. Right. Like, yeah. I just. I don't know. I like those colors, but apparently, like, when women look at it, they tell me this screams male so much, and I'm like, wow, I didn't know that.

It's really helpful to have someone looking out for you. Like, we have. There's a loyal listener and customer of ours, Lisa Byer. She's big in the. Actually, she's in your neck of the woods out in Florida, so she could probably assist you. But she's always looking out. She's like, okay, you've had a lot of males on the podcast or your lineup of, like, the top 10 from 2020 wasn't a single woman, which is totally true. So she's helping us out on that front to give us more women. She's like, hey, how about this idea to, you know, highlight women in this way for, you know, was it International Women's Day on March 8th? So we're doing something there.

Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I mean, it's a shame, right? Like, it's a shame. Or at least I feel it's a shame. Like, hopefully someday it's not like this, but, like, even when I did the livestream, like, I had to work really hard to get, like, four women or five women. Like, it just. And it wasn't like I was trying to get men. Like, it was just like, okay, like, who are the leaders? Let's, like, go after them. And, you know.

Yeah.

Like, I had Tim Walsh Phillips. I had Katrina Ruth. I had Felicia. I had Molly Mahoney, and I'm probably forgetting one other woman, but, like, there weren't that many. Like, you know, and. But it wasn't from a lack of trying.

Yeah, no. And that's the same on our side. It's pretty much exactly the same as what you said. It's just. I don't know, it's just the way I hope it doesn't stay that way. And luckily, you have Felicia here. That sounds like, hopefully. I'm happy that that's coming around, too, for. Because I remember we were chatting about this concept of doing a challenge and having someone else that's not you, I think is really cool, for one, because it elevates your brand, it seems like. And then the challenge model, talk into that model a little bit more, because I think that's. It's something that we're toying around with as well, where you have a public challenge, but also this internal challenge and it kind of serves as this lead in, you know, you're giving away amazing content paid on the front, but really the whole idea is to bring them in to steal our winners. Because we have a very similar model and I think a lot of people listening have a membership site. But using this kind of method is just giving value to both sides and it's kind of a no brainer way into the door.

I'm always looking to maximize the amount of leverage I get from whatever it is I do because I'm lazy and I don't want to do that much. So I want to figure out like how I can, you know, like, you know, if I clean the dishes, I want everyone in the house to know that I clean the dishes. So that's.

Everyone. The dishes are clean.

Every day. Yes, but I did the dishes today. So I just want everyone to know that for the next two days, you.

Leave one dish dirty. This is the trick. You leave one dish dirty until somebody else walks in the room and then you clean that final dish when they walk in the room.

That's right. I like it.

Good idea. Maybe I should just always have a dirty dish and then when someone else cleans it, like just whip it out and be like, oh, I just.

So, so with, you know, even with the, you know, the individual segments like of steelr winners, like the goal behind that was is that like ultimately when we get our shit together a little bit more, like we can pivot on a moment's not, I do a good interview, I can immediately turn that into a premium front end like offer. Right. And the whole idea being is like that what we're delivering to our clients, our subscribers can be the same thing that we're using to attract as bait, right? Like new buyers. Right. So we're not like having to create premiums like at Agora, they're creating premiums outside of like the newsletter to do that, whereas ours are self generated. And it's like, so as I'm looking at the clients and our subscribers, right. Like I'm always thinking about like what else can I do for them? That because I'm doing it then opens up something else that I'd like to do. Right. So engagement is important to me and wanting my, you know, the clients to be engaged with the content feel like every month there's stuff that they're getting that can really move their business forward. And my thought was, is that a challenge would be a great way to get a bunch you know, there's really. I kind of, like, look at it as three groups, and there's a middle group that I'm not really sure yet what to do with. But, like, you know, the way I'm looking at it is someone logs in to steal our winners. If they're. If they've got a, like, significant business going already, but they're a marketer, they're not going to really want to learn the techniques or anything like that. They're probably going to want to outsource it or give it to a team member.

So.

So for them, like, you know, we've talked about this. I think, like, where I want to go. I reached out to marketer hire. I haven't heard back yet. But my goal is to work with some company that can take the strategies that are appropriate each month and actually outsource it and then report back to us, like, the results and then make the whoever did it for us available to other people. So that, like, it almost becomes like a buffet. Like, you log in, you see the different tactics, you see which ones are working really well. You're like, oh, I'd like to have that tactic by the same person that did it for us. Like, you know, so my hope is, is that, like, for that group, we eventually move to that level. Right. Where each month we're reporting back on what was given to us the prior month and the results that that caused.

Yeah.

Also starting, I think this month, for last month's material, I'm doing a monthly call with Jay Abraham, where for Jay, he wants to stay up to date with what's happening in online marketing. Like, what are the coolest strategies and tactics. So he wants to talk about, like, what's in scale, our winners. And for me, it's a chance to share these with Jay, who's my mentor. So I want him to be as informed as possible. But two like that will spin other ideas in his head, like, oh, you could take that and do this with it or that with it. So it's a way of, like, expanding value. I think, like, the top level people would probably be interested in that as well. Definitely at the very bottom, like the. And I don't, you know, I'm just talking about not where they rank as human, as a human, but just in the evolution of their business at the very bottom. Right. The people that are still, like, doing it all themselves. For them, I think the challenge would be great because now they're not having to do the, you know, they can. Every month there'll be something from the content that they can do with other people and have their handheld and do it like, you know, in a way where they bond with other people and get an outcome. And so the challenges are really useful for that. So if we do the challenges really for them. Right. Because I don't see someone who's running like an eight figure business like blocking out a week so they can be involved in the challenge. Yeah, so this is more for the new people. But if we're going to do a challenge for internal, then we might as well do it external. And you know, the very first time I saw a model like this was probably, I don't know, like 13 to 15 years ago by a site, a company that's still in business. Marketing profs and marketing profs used to have like they would sell these like webinars with subject matter experts, like true subject matter experts, like if, you know they might have one on increasing your conversions on a webinar. But then it would be someone like a Jason Flatline, I mean not back then, but it would be someone that really knew their stuff or you know, lots of. And it was lots of like very drilled down type stuff. And you could buy. And now I think I'm going to make up numbers because I don't really remember what it was. But let's say you could buy, you know, it's like, let's say it was like a three hour webinar or something so it was in depth and you could buy it for like either 99 or 197 or something like that. And they did two of them a month but they're all free, plus the entire backlog of all the ones they've done in the past, like if you subscribe for $300 a year. So like you can buy that one for 197 or you can sign up right now for 300, get that one for 197 for free, plus the whole Mexican 52 weeks, plus all the ones from like last year and the year before and the year before. So like, you know, it kind of was a clever way of getting people into the membership. Right. Because they were doing those webinars for the members. Right. So it's the same thing here. And the only thing I would add is that, you know, the very first time that I really understood challenges was probably like in March I think of last year. Right. Because whenever I did the interview with Michelle Schaefer.

She was the first one to really kind of like lay out challenges for me and everything that was working. So where the world is today with challenges, like a lot of people are doing them, et cetera. Right. But it would be a mistake for most marketers because I think some marketers will make this mistake. They'll say, oh, that's kind of played out. And it's like, no, that has not played out. Like when I first was thinking about doing a launch, a very well known guru who I don't want to mention his name because he would be mad if I did. I was telling him, like, I was thinking about doing a launch and he's like, oh man, that's so played out already. And the only two people who had done launches at that point, like, other than Walker, was Reece and Mike Filshane. So this is like 2000, early 2006, like January of 2006. And this person was telling me, like, yeah, everyone's, it's passed. And like, I wouldn't be here today if I hadn't done that launch. So, you know, just because a lot of people are doing it doesn't mean that like a marketer shouldn't really explore it. And at least the way I've seen it done and I haven't seen, I haven't really participated in many challenges myself, but I've seen like, as I've been a guest to Kim Walsh Phillips primarily, and the amount of hand holding she does during those is quite extensive.

Yeah.

You know, and I was talking to Molly Mahoney last night about the same thing and she was saying how like, yeah, you're not doing anything else when you're doing those challenges. Like, you're all hands on deck. Right.

We chat with Roland pretty often. Frazier, he's doing a challenge basically a month, and I know he's blocking off a week or two, but there's a reason why he keeps doing them.

They're working during that week where he's running it. There's no, he's not responding to text messages. He's all, yeah, he's all in.

Yeah, yeah.

And I mean in one steal, our winners.

Scott Oldford did a segment on the back end of a challenge. And so he did this challenge where I think he charged 97 bucks. Didn't get that many people in it maybe got like four or five hundred people, like something like that. I mean, for Scott, that's not that much. And maybe he spent like half that money or three quarters of that money on the advertising to get those people in. Maybe it was even less. Maybe it was like 2 or 300. But part of the offer was that during the challenge that if you fill out this application, Scott will review it personally and text you back what he thought your next step should be. Like, whether it's with Scott or with someone else. Right. But he would personally text you back and tell you what he thought your best steps were. And that worked so effectively that on that small group in the challenge, he brought back well over a million dollars in backend sales from it. And a client, a Steal Our Winners subscriber. I don't know her well. I just know her first name is Mia. She used that strategy and then she posted to Facebook, like made an extra hundred and some odd thousand dollars like from that one strategy. And I was like, hot damn. Yeah, we should be doing, we should be doing some of these. And yeah, you know, and I'm so like, yeah, that would be awesome. Because if we can do something like that where like we're doing it to the external, so we're getting new subscribers to steal our winners and then if we're using like a tactic like that you gave us, right, like, then we would want to sell your back end like out of that challenge. And it would be great to sell a couple hundred thousand dollars of our contributors back end. Like that would certainly be something that would make people want to contribute like as quickly all the time. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, you know, it's like I always try in anything I'm doing to try and make it as much a win, win, win, win, win, because, like, because I'm lazy. I know that if I can make it a win, win, win, like then other people are going to be willing to lend some support to get some stuff done because they have an outcome that's beneficial. Like, I find that very, not very many people are excited about me making a lot more money, except me and Kim and my kids. Yeah. But like, but other people can be enrolled in them making more money.

Of course. So yeah, I mean, ever since we got to know you, which was last year or it was what, two years, what, 2019. It was the end of 2019 is when Mars hooked us up, basically got you on a lot of podcasts and that kind of spun into now. But yeah, ever since then, we've kept in touch. I mean, you've helped us tremendously and we were just pulled to help you in anything that you're doing. And something I actually want to talk about because this kind of leads into the model are your live streams. Because for a while we were talking about podcasts for, for you on the back end of Steal Our Winners. But now you went hot and heavy on live streams every week, and you have that thing freaking dialed in, man. So it's basically kind of like a podcast.

Yeah, kind of like a podcast. I wish I had more guests, you know, Like, I haven't really tried to get guests, but there. And I think, like, I wish I could just turn it on and just do it as opposed to, like, thinking of a clever topic, having something to say about that, you know, especially when there's no other person, like, you know, it's you for two hours. Like, geez, like, can I even, you know, what am I going to do after I spend 10 minutes, you know, when it takes only 10 minutes to say everything I know about this thing?

What am I going to do?

The hour, the next hour and 50 minutes? So that's kind of, you know, that's the only problem with trying to get too much leverage out of stuff. Like right now, what we're doing is I'm doing the last 10 minutes of the live stream. I'm recording a YouTube video based on what I just covered in the live stream. And so what's cool is that the people watching enjoy it because they get to see me nervous and, like, stumbling over myself, concerned, like, having to psych myself up to do this YouTube video, which, you know, they don't expect that. You know, we just tend to think, I guess, when we see other people do stuff that it's not as difficult for them as it is for us. And so them getting to see that it's just as difficult for me to record a YouTube video as it is for them, you know, kind of like, I think increases the bonding. And then fortunately, we've been hooked up with some really good people for YouTube. So we started, like, I think this will be the fourth video and. Or maybe the fifth, I don't know. But, like, we're ranked number one or two for how to get new customers. Like, as a search phrase in YouTube, we're ranked number one for digital marketing strategies. I think we're ranked number three or four for how to start an online business. And yeah, something else. And so I got to figure out, like, I think today, tonight I do another live stream, and it's on how to scale your business. And yeah, so I'm going to have to figure out what the hell I'm going to talk about on YouTube because, you know, it's like, one thing to do a live stream. People, like, get to know you, like, they're not versus someone, like, stumbles across your video. You've got A lot less time to get to the goods before they. Right before they decide, like, this is a waste of my time.

Yeah.

How does the live stream stuff fit into the bigger picture of your business? So it's obviously feeding the YouTube channel. Are you pushing people over to steal our winners at the end of the live streams? What's the sort of. How does it fit?

Yeah, well, when I start the live stream, I play the docu series promo. Like, like there's a 10 second countdown now. And then as soon as that 10 second countdown goes, it goes into the promo for two minutes, then it cuts to me. Right. So I'm advertising that every time. I actually, in the last video I shot for YouTube, they told me to make it 10 minutes long, so I made it eight minutes long and then ended with that promo. And that's gotten us quite a bit of traffic. So that's kind of nice. Right now. It's kind of a waste of time. I would say, like, if I'm being all honest, like, other than like building out an audience and being more familiar, like, but if was the only reason to do it, I would say, like, yeah, it's not the best use of my time, but I do want to have a bigger presence on YouTube, so that's important to me and I want to start putting out a lot more content in other places. Part of that is through live streaming. Like we right now we just loaded up our first video to LinkedIn. We're like loading up a few videos and then I'm going to apply for LinkedIn Live. I was going to ask that. And right. Like right now I'm broadcasting live to YouTube and Facebook, but I'd love to be doing it. YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, you know, and LinkedIn, maybe even Twitch, who knows?

I see you on TikTok pretty soon here.

Well, no, actually I'm doing some tests on TikTok right now, but I'm doing it in China.

Okay.

Just in case it all goes sideways.

But Mars of Mars and Michelle, not that there's anyone else named Mars, but.

He just started working with my assistant to help me find a video editor and ideally a video editor that's like somewhere close to me so that they can come over also and like we can record stuff. Because really I would spend more time preparing for the live streams, which would then make the live streams better if like I had a video editor who was coming in behind me, like finding the. Of the four hours I did last week, like the 10 minutes where I sounded really smart to like edit down so that then we can use those videos as content in a lot of different places. And so I'd say that we're like a few weeks away from that. But I want to do so much more video. But I want to do. But I want the end result to be much more polished than me during the live stream. You know, I say like, too much. I say too much. And I like all that.

See the beauty. This is the beauty of live streaming, though. And I know just for people starting a podcast, it's a big hang up for a lot of folks. Is trying to be perfect on the mic and it's like, come on, that's B.S. yeah. Like, we, we actually don't edit much from our show, so we just forced ourselves to kind of practice at getting better at the flow of conversation. But it's like, you know what? It's. We all, we all struggle with it in some ways. I remember watching a video, an unedited video of Richard Branson one time, and he was stumbling around like a crazy person. Like, it was just, I mean, it was just all over the place and. But the edited version made him sound super polished and like, you know, it's just not him, though, in real life.

Like Joe Biden.

No comment there. Yeah, the. But, you know, I was, I would say that I was on the. Mike Dillard's. Mike Dillard's podcast, and he has such attention to detail that he has everything edited. So when I was listening to that, I was like, oh my God, I sound so amazing. And then I started, that's not me. Where's the us? Where's the likes? And he had edited all that out. I was just super impressed. I've never had anyone when I was a guest on someone else's show to edit everything like that. I was blown away. But yeah, most. That's the only podcast I've ever known where I was on, where they actually, they went through the whole thing and took out every, every, like, every.

You can, you can go down the rabbit hole. We had Guy Kawasaki on the podcast recently, you know, and he, he has the Remarkable People podcast. So if you want to hear a polished podcast, go to that one. I mean, the guy, he said he spends five hours editing it himself, himself, and then he has another team member edit for another five hours or something. I'm just like, this is wild. He sees him as like a work of art, like a book that he puts out into the world, though. So he wants it polished. There's a journey. So he has a different intention. It Just comes down to what you want to do with it, I guess. You know.

With Steal Our Winners, I bet you probably run into an issue that we run into as podcasters, where it's just this constant, like, feed of awesome ideas and cool tactics and, like, oh, shit, I got to try that. I want to try that. I want to try that. How do you not try every single thing that comes across your way?

Yeah, I want to. And that's another reason why we want to do that outsourcing thing as a vehicle for us to do more of it right now. It's kind of. I give this advice sometimes to beginners or people just starting out because I. I've been guilty of this in the past, and I guess I'm guilty of it now, too. You get so excited about an idea, and it's a good idea. So you get. When you share it with other people, it's like, oh, that's a great idea. And you get, like, a psychological payoff without ever having to do the idea. Right. Like, you could just share it. And everyone's like, oh, that's really smart. And so now it takes some of the pressure away from actually doing the thing. So, you know, it's. Sometimes it's a good thing not to share your goals, like, to actually keep them to yourself so that you're kind of forced to accomplish it so that you can then share it. Because sharing it kind of dissipates some of the energy, like, inside to get it done. So I guess the way I'm dealing with it is every time I come across something really cool right now, like someone shares something really cool, like, I just share it with some people so I can get that at least initial pressure off, like, because it gets stored up, and I'm like, so, like, I'll call a few people and share a strategy.

Yeah, but I like that, though. I mean, with the bigger goals, if you have a mission or something, you know, you really want to do, like, keep that bottled up a little bit, maybe share it with the right people for feedback. But, yeah, it takes away the momentum or the fire inside of you because it almost, like, becomes reality when you talk about it.

Like, I want people to. Not consciously, but I know unconsciously I have this desire, like, to display intelligence and stuff like that. Right. And so if you can get the payoff without doing the work, then of course you're going to do. Right. Like, if I make an extra ten grand this month, my life is not going to change.

In any way. Right. But if I execute a Cool idea that will change that. Like, that's cooler to me than making the ten grand. So if I could just share a cool idea and get what I would have gotten from executing a good idea, then there's no reason to execute the idea. And. Yeah, so that doesn't work out well, though, if you're building your business.

Not at all. Well, I mean, on that point, I know, and I don't know if we've recorded this. I know we've chatted about it, I think both in person and also just on calls. But I mean, you digest so much information, you speed read like a crazy person, but you actually retain it. And you have a whole system that happens after you digest information.

Could you share some of that? I mean, I know you've.

So the way I used to do it was I would read a book, highlight it, and then sometimes I might read the book twice, one time where it's really being read to me while I'm working out. And then for that I would use an iPad app called Quick Reader. Like Quick Reader. Oh, no, no, sorry. Quick Reader is the speed reading program. The one that would read to me. But also like pace on the screen was Voice Dream, like Dr.

It all the time.

And so I'd go through that. I'd go through the book like in an hour and a half or two hours with Voice Stream. Then I would sit down and read it and highlight it. Then I would take those highlights and then I would speed read it in Quick Reader. And I could do that like, you know, in 10 minutes or five minutes. And that's the way I did it for like a decade. And then, and I'd say a couple years ago, it just went through more stages where Quick Reader highlight. But then instead of taking the highlights and just putting it into my speed reading program, I'd actually take my highlights and put them in Evernote and then do this process that I learned from Tiago Fort called progressive summarization. The idea is that to know just by looking at a note how valuable that note is to you, and the value of the note being based on how much engagement with that note you've had prior. And so each time you touch a note, kind of like the idea of office productivity, only touch things once with this. It's like every time you touch it, do something with it so that you can kind of get a sense of how much you've interacted with it. And so the first time you go through, like, this is Tiago's process of progressive summarization. The first time you go through a note, which now this note is already just what I've highlighted out of a book, right? So now it's just the highlights. Now when I read it, I'm bolding anything that I think is important. Now I thought everything was important like when I was reading it in the book, but now I'm trying to be more selective, right? So it's now what's important of just this stuff. And so I'm bolding that. That's my first pass. But then. And that's always the longest pass because I'm having to re whole note, right? But the next time I see that note, if I see that bunch of parts of bolded, I know that I've already gone through this. So now all I look at are the bold parts. And then I'm highlighting anything that I think is important in the bold parts only, right? And so now the next time I see the node, there's going to be a bunch of stuff that's bolded. There's going to be a few things that are highlighted. I know that the highlighted of the bold are the most important points. And that's what I will now interact with. Like, I will little boxes where I'm now putting my thoughts based on that, right? That's the process I go through. And what, like, what I've kind of realized also is that I need to start doing that or I started doing that this month for Steal Our Winners because someone else was like summarizing stuff. And I think that a few things get lost as far as things that I would think are important but are not the number one thing of that interview. And I want to make sure that people are aware of those things. So it's nice to be pleasantly surprised when someone drops a strategy that you weren't even expecting because that's not even on the topic of what the segment is about. But it would be nice also for people, when they're skimming it, to know that that's there. So it's about teaching my team how to do that as well and then doing it with them for those things. But yeah, I mean, for me, my memory isn't that good. It's more about interacting with stuff enough so that, like, it just becomes that familiar. But if it's read once, like, you know, I could watch a movie this weekend with Kim and if you ask me next week what movie I watch, I'd have no idea. I'm like, you know, so there's hope.

For me after all. No, I'm just Thinking because you've talked about, and I don't know if it's true or not, but you kind of have this ADHD brain. Just the fact that someone like you don't think you have a great memory, but you have a process and it serves you well and it keeps you on point with what's actually important, I think is smart. When it even goes back to your question of shiny object. Oh, great tactic. Well, let's dive deep a little bit more in that tactic and see if it actually does fit in something I'm doing.

There's a difference between a strategy that is new that versus that you should be using in your business versus a just a shiny object. Right. And I think a lot of people have difficulty kind of when looking at something determining whether it's one or the other. It's kind of critical because the times when my business has grown the most or the businesses that I've interacted with have grown the most is oftentimes with a breakthrough.

I have that billion dollar testimonial from Agora because I saw the VSL that John Benson had invented. I had nothing to do with it, but I saw it a week after he had invented it and put it out there and I brought it to Agora. And Agora worldwide conversion rates went up between 300 and 400%. So it went from a quarter of a billion to over a billion that year. But like nowadays if we test a VSL versus a sales letter, there's little to no difference. And it was the same with automated webinars. Like for me and when I gave it to Brunson and Phil, same like we were all crushing it. The registration rate was insane, the show up rate was insane because we were the only people doing automated webinars at that time. And so like my business back then, like strategic profits went from selling like 10 backends a month to selling like 10 to 15 a day. Like I never like was making like so much money consistently as that. And so both of those times were, you could say they were shiny bright objects. Like they were, oh, here's another way of doing something you're already doing, but you know, but those two things were life changing for me. Right? And so it's like, how do you know? How do you know if you're exploring like a distraction versus the next like huge like you know, major step up for your business. And I think most people don't know how to distinguish the two. And I need to give some thought on how best to me, it's more intuitive, but, you know, that's not the best answer. So I'm going to have to give some thought to that.

That's a future live stream. You can make it one of those.

Well, speaking of shiny objects, I. I'd like to quickly hear your thoughts on Clubhouse. It's obviously kind of the hottest shiny object at the moment, especially among the digital marketing community. So what are your thoughts there?

I like Clubhouse, but I have a love hate relationship with it. I also have history online, and that history online also kind of interferes with my viewpoint on it. And what I mean by that is that I think I was the first in our market to get on Twitter because back then, like, Gary Vaynerchuk and I used to hang out a lot. And so when he discovered Twitter, he told me to get on it. So we got on it, like, close to the same time. And then Gary and I were going to the first south by Southwest together. And so I posted on my blog, like, follow us on Twitter. It's this new app, like, blah, blah, blah, download it and stuff like that. After about, like, two weeks, I got kind of bored of Twitter and just like went back to doing whatever it is I do, and Gary, like, didn't. And then Gary got into the algorithm, and everybody who's joining Twitter is being told, you should follow Gary Vaynerchuk. And next thing I check, I've got 10,000 followers or 20,000 followers, and he's got 10 million or something like that. I'm like, oh, wow, I guess I should have stayed on Twitter a little bit more. I think I have 6,000 followers or so on Clubhouse. But I was talking to John Lee and this is. Was months ago, and he already had 70,000 followers then. He probably has well over 100,000 now. And I was like, how did you get 70,000 followers? He's like, I got 3,000 followers today. And I'm like, how did you get 3,000 followers today? He's like, I'm in the algorithm. I'm like, oh, son of a. Like, I should, like, you know, like, once again it's happening. So there's that. It's been great for me to get on there because a lot of people recognize me. So they put me up as a speaker, and then I get to meet a lot of people who I don't know, but they know of me, and I'd like to know them right? So that's kind of cool. What I don't like about it is how in some rooms, I guess it really depends on the Moderator. But there's, like, a one upmanship.

Oh, like, share your best tip. Oh, no, I got it. Yeah, I got you.

Yeah. It's really frustrating for me, like, if I share something that I think is, like, pure gold, because I know it's made me millions and it's made a lot of my clients millions. And then someone comes behind me, like, with a. Something that I invented, like, 10 years ago that I. That Todd Brow, like, taught someone else, and then that person taught that person, and now it's totally bastardized. Won't work, like, the way they're explaining it, but I know because it was my idea originally, and I'm just. And sometimes, like, if you're in a bad room, like, people, like the way it was described, like, sounds sexy. Like, I'm going to tell you this. Like, you know, I didn't set up my idea as being the best idea, and now, like, we're going to another person and the person's like, you know, I'm only going to give you this idea because if I keep giving you ideas, like, everyone's going to get too wealthy in this room. And I'm. I, you know, like, giving, like, all this keys to the idea. And I'm just sitting there and I'm like, yeah, I don't know if I want to be talking to an audience that can't tell the difference between the idea I just gave and that idea. Because that idea for some of them are getting them all riled up. Even though it's not going to work, I know it because I've tried that. Like, that was the wrong idea when I first came up with the right idea. So that part is a little bothersome. But. But what I would say is that it is the easiest place right now to get a following. And so for someone like, so you don't have to be like, me where, like, you know, people recognize your name possibly. But I would say that anyone can get on and start a room and they're going to get more people in that room than they would if they turned on a live stream on Facebook or YouTube or anyplace else. So from that standpoint, it is a really, like, for people who are trying to get more of a following and grow their business, it's a really good place to be. I've spoken to some trainers, like, you know, like, you know, personal trainers, like, in the UK who have, like, filled up their book of business, like, just on Clubhouse, and, you know, and so, yeah, there's, there's. There's a lot that can be done there. I wanted to do a challenge actually around Clubhouse, you know, and it's just a question of whether I can find someone, the right person to do it with me because I don't feel capable on two levels. One, I don't know all the inside strategies for someone who doesn't have any following, to get a following on. On Clubhouse fast and to someone who's really good at hand holding, you know, and like some mother bear kind of person. But I'd love to do a Clubhouse challenge where it's like, get your first 500 followers in 5G days. Something like that.

Yeah. I mean, a couple names. Gary Henderson, he's big on Clubhouse and we had him on the podcast. Here he is. Amazing. Deb Cole. I think you know her.

Yeah, I know Deb well.

She's writing a book on it.

Actually.

It's already out. That is Gary's writing a book as well. So it's.

Those two are probably.

Yeah, yeah.

I was in this actually, you know, I'd love an intro to Gary.

Sure.

I've never really spoken to him. I was in a room the other day where I just thought the moderator was awesome. I don't know her, but I saw her. I then later that day was in a thing for Kim Walt Phillips, and she was on. Her name is Samantha Brown, and she was running this room where it was like, give a tip or strategy on, like something from your morning routine that would be valuable for everyone to listen to. And there was like a thousand people in the room. And each speaker would go. And then people would have to. People in the audience would have to raise their hands if they liked the strategy or not. And if they didn't get more than 70 hands up. The speaker was kicked off the. Kicked out of the speaking thing.

Yeah.

And so, like, you know, the person would give the strategy and then, you know, okay, like, put up your hand if you think that that was valuable and this person should stay on the speaker panel. And I thought that was really cool because, like, then it made it much more like, okay, it's not just a bunch of speakers and we're cool and we're gonna, like, you know, one up each other or whatever this was now more. The audience was in total control of who were. And I. I dug that. Like, and it added the pressure to the people like me on the speaker panel. Like, crap. I don't want to be ticked off. That's kind of embarrassing, right? Like, so now I gotta step up my game. Like, I gotta actually listen. I Can't just have it on in the background. So, you know, I thought that was really cool. So I'd like to. I wanna do a steal our winners, right Room. I want to have like a room, but I want to get a moderator that can be really good. Like, and kind of because the moderator seems to be so important. And that's an opportunity. I mean, that's an opportunity, like for people who are thinking about like starting a podcast. Another thing that might be a good idea for them to do is to be a moderator 100%. Because moderators. It's like this woman, Samantha Brown. I don't know her at all. I know that in the stages of evolution as far as like entrepreneurial growth, I'd like to think I'm probably leaps and bounds ahead of her. I don't know anything about her, so maybe she is, but that's my assumption. But when it comes to Clubhouse, she's leaps and bounds ahead of me. Right. And so this is someone who probably. I'm just totally guessing. So let's remove her out of the equation and just call her moderator A. But like moderator A might have a business where her list is like 2,000 people, right? Like she sells like a $39 ebook and that's her whole business. But all of a sudden now she has 70,000 followers in clubhouse because she's a good moderator and now people like me are like seeking her out. So there's a lot of deals that she could do. Right. And I think there's a lot of opportunity for that because, you know, most people are not going to spend like a ridiculous amount of time in there, but it's an easy way to actually aggregate some clout, I'd say, in a pretty short amount of time.

That's exactly what Gary did, actually, because he said on our podcast he's like, I didn't have a following before this. It was always the behind the scenes guy of big brands and, you know, big names that we all know. But at the same time, yeah. Just because he was moderating, now he's in the driver's seat, he's getting deal flow and these connections just from showing up, up and being the point person of that room. I don't think there's any better approach right now.

And I don't know anything else that like the only other way that that could happen for you. Right. Is if you do a podcast and you happen to get some big guests right out of the gate.

Right.

And then you get some way, shape or form. Right. Like Joe Rogan or Richard Branson or someone, like, with a huge following shows up on your podcast. You could kind of get there that way, but, like, other than that, you know, it's going to be a long, slow drag. It might be faster with podcasts than anything else, except for maybe Clubhouse, Right? Like, because right now, there's just this moment of opportunity where it's still going to grow, right? Like, you know, if there's 10 million people in Clubhouse right now, like, it'll probably grow to 100 million. So that, like, over time. Right. So anyone who's there and being active is going to grow with that platform.

Yeah.

Have you spoken to anyone that has done that yet where, like. Like, they've taken. Where they're hyping their podcast into Clubhouse?

Yes. I've actually been on a podcast interview. Actually. It was Matt McWilliams did it. Matt McWilliams had a podcast episode.

Todd Herman, too, right?

Yeah, Todd Herman, me. It was me, Matt McWilliams, Todd Herman, Molly Mahoney, and Kim Walsh Phillips. Kim Walsh Phillips, yeah. So she was the one person in the room that I didn't really know that well prior to it. But, yeah, Matt McWilliams has been doing podcasts right through Clubhouse, piping them into Clubhouse and also recording them on Zoom at the same time. So I've seen that.

I mean, I think that's really, really cool. Especially, like, if there's, like, a moderator in the. Like, if there was some way that you could, like, where the moderator was pulling questions from the crowd in the Clubhouse room and then somehow getting it to you. Like, when I used to do a lot of live streams back in my office, you know, we had, like, it all built out, right? And there were two pipelines into the teleprompter. So one person could be telling me questions from the audience that would just show up on the teleprompter. So I could just be looking straight ahead, talking, and then a question would. That only I would see would be right there. And then underneath that, like, from another person would be sales and be giving me messages like, you know, keep talking about X. Every time you're talking about X, it seems like we have a bump in sales, right? And so I'm getting all this other information at me, but, like, as far as the camera, I'm just talking to the camera. So it'd be kind of cool if you're doing a podcast and in your ear, if someone's saying, like, the people in Clubhouse want to know this about the guest, right? And so now you're, like, making it real time kind of. Right? Like so. Yeah, that'd be kind of cool.

This goes back to. It reminds me of your live stream with Mars over there and, you know, his team, because I know that's what he kind of does during those live streams. And yeah, I mean, it's so damn effective, especially if you're on the spot or, you know, live in the hot seat for so long. It's like, gotta fill the time with value, you know?

Yeah. So. And it makes it so much easier when, you know, when you have a lot of questions. I mean, I could talk forever if you keep feeding me questions, but, like, if I have no questions, I run out of stuff to say after, like, 10 minutes.

Another model for the clubhouse could be just a simple Q and A with your Steeler winners folks, you know, from the month prior or, you know, maybe every week it's a Q and A with a handful of folks to just.

Yeah, that would be cool.

Yeah.

I'd also just like to have a room, right, like, where anytime, like any contributor steal our winners wants to get on, like, your, you know, specific times every month or something where, you know, all contributors are invited to be on. Could be kind of cool.

Do a little close as a way.

Of, like, also, once again, like, being out there publicly and sharing good stuff. But at the same time, like, if we really have it dialed in, then our contributors would know. They could just show up to that clubhouse room and get a lot more followers on clubhouse because we have that room and we're doing stuff all the time. Right. Like just another win, win, win thing.

Yeah.

Yeah, man.

You know, anything else burn in that you want to get off your chest here before we wrap it up? We're on a roll, man.

Yeah, I think we. We covered a lot of ground in this podcast.

I think we did. I don't even know how we're going to title this thing or present it. That's the story.

Let me just share one last thing. Right. I am in the process, just started, though, rewriting the Mr. X book for Jay. And that's my favorite, one of my favorite marketing books of all time. Jay's been asking me to do it for years, and. And I've kind of just been like. And finally we had a heart to heart conversation about it. And he's like, what is it going to take? And I'm like, okay, okay. I'm like, thinking, like, what would be hard to say no to? I'm like, okay. You know, Jay, we're Close enough that I can just say this. And if you don't want to do this, totally get it. But this is. If you want to do this, then I will write it. Like, no problem, right? And he's like, what's that? I'm like, okay, if you're willing to write a new forward for it and say that of anyone that you've ever worked with, taught, et cetera. You wanted me to rewrite it because you see me as like, the. Your heir apparent, right? Like, because at some point, Jay, you won't be here. And I'd like people to know how close we were and how you see me as, like, the person who takes your stuff and lives on with it. And if you're willing to write that and you have no problem with me using that anywhere, then I would rewrite the book. And he's like, I have no problem with that. So I was like, cool, done. And so in the process of that, I'm working with this other guy who's helping me, Kay Von T. And in the book, there's a lot of talk about lifetime value, right? Because it's an important, obviously, metric for marketers. But I had this long conversation with Kevon about how online.

Lifetime value is incredibly important. But what's more important for most entrepreneurs is cart value, because that's really going to determine. Very few people are like, agora, where it's like, okay, the lifetime value of this person is 700 doll. So we can spend $300 to make this $50 sale go 250 negative. Like forever. Yeah. So for most people, lifetime value is kind of irrelevant, because unless you have stacks of cash, it's irrelevant. Right. What's really relevant is cart value, because if your cart value is more than your acquisition cost, you can sell all day long. And if it's less than acquisition cost, if you sell all day long, you could go out of business. And so cart value to me is really important. And so I was to Kayvon about how, yeah, it's not as simple as we're just updating this book because there are concepts, while important, they are now less so because of who we're talking to, entrepreneurial market, stuff like that. So I always am on the lookout. So that was just a setup about cart value, really, and that I'm always on the lookout for anything that will increase cart value because it is really the thing that will determine your growth rate at the end of the day. And so I came across something really interesting recently. I saw Frank Kern do it. So I Don't think he invented it. And I'm pretty sure actually he did not. But I'll give him credit because that's where I saw it first, where he had this offer where it was like his five books for a dollar. On the very next page, it's a dollar trial to his newsletter for 97amonth. Dollar for the first month. Next page is like, okay, you took the trial, but do you want to just upgrade right now? I will make it $67 a month instead of $97. And you'll save $30 every month by paying for it right now. And you still could cancel at any time.

And so I thought that was interesting. I've seen that before. So that's nothing new. But then on the very next page, he was then offering mass control for 97 bucks, right? Because it doesn't market it anymore. It doesn't offer it anymore. Below that though, was the interesting part. So video of Frank.

Big box underneath, get the entire mass control for $97. Then below that like a little blue button that said add, right? Like if you wanted that. But then below that there were three more boxes, each with like a paragraph of text. And it was like Frank gave this special presentation to the copywriters of this company. Never been sold before, added, you know, get it now, 60 bucks, right? And it's just another add button. And then below that, like at the private mass control event, Frank revealed his number one strategy for blah, blah, blah, blah, $60. So there were three $60 offers below.

The mass control offer of 97 on this upsell page. And then on the very next page, there was a 297 upsell, right? And then another three $70 add buttons.

So every upsell has multiple add ons on the same.

So yeah, so every upsell had three bump offers on it.

Got it.

And I was like, oh my God. And I did a little bit of research, found out like who's doing that and how effective it's been. And the news I got back, I haven't done a full interview on it yet, but the news I got back is that it significantly increases card value. And so that is something that just to pass along to you guys. It's something I'm excited about. I can't wait to try it because, like, I just, it makes total sense. And bump offers, I buy a lot of stuff online and a lot of times, like, I find it very hard to not click on that bump offer because a lot of times there are good marketers who kind of figure out what it is that almost everyone's going to take.

So I think that's cart well. And I don't want to. I just want to throw a mention of your mystery box. I remember you had that as one of your upgrades. The steal our winners. And I thought it was brilliant. Brilliant. Hopefully you can bring out one of those again because I think that works pretty well.

How about like three more mysteries that we put in the box? Right?

Good. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean the whole cart value. I think that's a good distinction though because lifetime value does feel out of touch for a lot of marketers. Especially if you're, you know, small team, lean and mean. You're not going to have deep pockets. So cart value would be more the metric. How about the Mr. X book? I mean, I'm sure that's going to be. That's an undertaking for a while because I know that is a thick book. Yeah.

That's why I needed help. I'm not doing it alone because it would be a full time job and. But yeah, and what's made it a little bit more complicated is that it's a book that already has a conversation going on between two people. So now I'm a third person. Like, hey guys, like, you know.

It'S like they just had this little conversation about lifetime value. Now I have to interject myself and be like, I guys, lifetime value is not where it's at these days. Like then I have to answer like, what do you mean rich? And oh, well, you know, it's a little bit weird. We have to kind of alter the whole thing a little bit.

Right? That's going to be good, man. Well, thanks for the copy of the original when we went to your house right around the time.

You'll get the new one when it's done. Eventually.

Eventually.

Hopefully. Hopefully I'll be a guest on this podcast again before that.

I think you will, man.

Well, let's wrap it up, man. We've already taken way more of your time. I appreciate it, man. What's the best way? What? Strategicprofits.com is your main site. Is that the best way for people to get into steal our winners these days?

Yeah, Strategic profits dot com. The other thing is probably to either go to my YouTube channel and subscribe or go to our Facebook group, which is free, which is also strategic profit. If they join the Facebook group, which I said is free, then they'll get a lot of updates as far as like when I do my live streams and everything else. Cause that all goes there.

Yeah. No, and I agree.

And there's a bunch of my paid stuff that we put in there free. So another benefit.

I saw you release something today or yesterday. I think it was like some old paid report of yours and you put it in there.

Yeah, that's the, your business blueprint where I walk people through. Like, how do you go from an idea to building a business that you. You get free of completely?

Strategicprofits.com will get you there. Rich, always a pleasure, man. Can't wait to do it again. Thank you.

Thanks for having me. Thanks for teaching me everything that I know about podcasting in general and thanks for agreeing to help me get my final podcast off the ground idea. And thanks for being patient and not saying screw Rich Sheffrin when I've wasted your time talking about podcasts that never happened. But this one's to going, going to.

Have hint he has not wasted a minute of her time. Always give it his value. Appreciate it, man.

Hi, guys.

Rich Chefron is my homeboy.

Is he?

I don't know.

I think so.

Do you think he would say that if I was like, hey, are you my homeboy? Do you think he'd be like, yeah.

Sure, maybe, like, I don't know. Let me think about it. Gotta be methodical with my answer here.

Yeah, he's gonna, he's gonna go look at my, my Facebook account and see if I'm working.

Facebook account. That would do it.

Probably not, because I don't use Facebook very often.

He would say, you're unworthy because he's way more active.

That's definitely, definitely true, Rich.

It's always a good time chatting with Rich. I mean, he's just a wealth of knowledge. And we had no clue what we would chat about this episode in full honesty. We're just like, you know what?

He was a last minute ad, actually. And I feel like.

That'S really sort of kind of telling of where we're kind of at now with our business a little bit in this sense that, you know, guys like Rich Sheffrin who, like, we respect insanely, and he was one of the first Internet marketer types that we ever even followed in the very, very, very beginning.

Definitely.

And now we're at a point with someone like Rich where we could call him up and say, hey, we have an open slot. You want to come back on the podcast?

And it's always a fun time, 24 hours notice.

He was like, I'm going to rearrange some stuff. I want to be on your podcast again. Like, holy shit, how cool Is that.

Yeah, to give him big love on that because he did move around some stuff on his schedule to make this happen and did not disappoint. And I'm pretty sure you got. I mean, I don't even know. I'm looking at my notes and I don't know why I am. Because I don't think I wrote a single thing down that I'm going to talk about here because it's. I mean, it was just really cool. I think what I love the most actually is him breaking down a Steal Our Winners model. And. And because it's very similar to our model in that he is a curator of content of the best content. He has an amazing network as well. And Steal Our Winners, which we're in there, we've contributed a handful of times and we're about to do it again. And we've been at the launch event last year in Florida that we talked about as well.

We'll be at the next one apparently.

Yeah. Whenever that is. I mean, it's a really cool model to think of yourself as a curator and then create a membership around it that pays you either monthly or annual or whatever.

Yeah. And then who actually follows that model though?

Who?

Yeah, that was a joke because we're launching Pod Hacker and it's the same model.

Well, that's one too.

Yeah.

For example, the Evergreen Profits membership that. Yeah, Steelo winners that Ryan Lee, we had him on the show with Freedom with a Y that.

So pricing models might be different, but I think the curation model is just so damn cool. I mean, that's what we're doing as podcasters obviously as well, bringing guests on and sharing knowledge.

Yeah.

So the fact that. And I love the way that Rich thinks and I'm sure we've taken so much from this, probably without even thinking about it, but he's like, I'm lazy. I wanna. He kept saying that. I'm like, you're not fucking lazy. But maybe you are, I don't know. But you know, you wanna leverage the time you're spending with those folks and extend that content in other ways. And it might be different ways, you know, segments of that content. Maybe you do some multiple recording, batch record and then use that in other ways. You know, Maybe it's a YouTube video, live stream and also paid content or something.

Yeah, I like how you like, you went, haha, batch record. Because we're actually in the process of batch recording stuff right now. But people listening to this right now probably don't get the reference because the last Time we referenced, it was a completely different episode.

This is the problem with batch recording. Stuff gets mixed up. Yeah, that was from the John Lee Dumas episode.

Yeah, we start. Yeah, we start going, yeah, we were just talking to this person. But from the listener perspective. That was like two weeks ago.

Yeah, it was ages ago. Oh, man. But, yeah, Rich, I mean, he's. It's just so. I mean, it speaks volumes when you know his mentor and good friend Jay Abraham, who, you know, we've had both of them on the podcast at the same time, which was super cool. Cool. So if you haven't listened to that, go check it out. It was totally different topics and stuff, but the fact that he's now going to help Jay write the next Mr. X book, the new version. And the Mr. X book, if you don't know about. I mean, that thing, we do have a copy of it. It is very down there. If you're looking there, it is down bottom right. Yeah. It is a bible of marketing, basically. It is insane how in depth that book is, but it's in hot demand. And he's basically reworking that and updating it, it seems like. So I'm excited. It's the first I've heard of that.

Yeah, yeah. No, that's exciting. I also wasn't anticipating him getting into as much detail about his dealing with Agora either, which I thought was a really fascinating kind of behind the scenes thing to hear from him, you know, because when we went out to Florida at the beginning of 2020, it was actually the second to last thing that we did before COVID locked everything down because we went to Podfest like a.

Week later or something crazy.

But with. With Rich's event, when we flew out there and we spoke on the thing and we were in the mastermind, it was all an Agora thing. Agora was really the ones putting it, you know, putting everything on. And recently they parted ways that Rich is no longer underneath the Agora umbrella. And I didn't think we were actually going to talk about that on the show, but he brought it up and I thought it was just a really interesting behind the scenes to hear. I also thought it was interesting to hear him behind the scenes talk about, like, how he's kind of uncomfortable at times doing live streams, doing podcast interviews. Like, you know, everybody looks up at Rich is like, he's the guru to the gurus, right? That's sort of his moniker. That's what people know him as. And even the guru to the guru still kind of gets uncomfortable when it comes time to jumping on Clubhouse or doing a live stream or, you know, getting on a podcast. It's just really, really humanizing and interesting to hear that from some of these people that we've really looked up to over the years.

Yeah. And him and I have actually had similar chats separately because we've. Throughout this course of the last year or so. I mean, he mentioned at the end of the podcast that he's been wasting our time. Totally not true. Because there's always a nugget of wisdom or 10 that I pull from those conversations. And, yeah, those are legit things that go through his mind, but also go through everyone's mind. And I guess I'll go back to this whole John Lee Dumas episode that we talked about. My brain bled over into here.

Yeah, the one that came out back on March 23rd.

Yeah, that one. Okay, cool. So it's been released already, but it's like, you got to do the reps, and that's John Lee Dumas. He said straight up. He was. Well, yeah, I mean, he just wasn't great back then. And, I mean, Rich is doing these live streams that are freaking awesome, I think. I mean, so I definitely recommend you go checking out his Facebook group, which is free. And I think it's just if you look up strategic profits or actually just go to strategicprofits.com. that's right. It has all the options right there on the homepage. Go join that group. Because he's doing the live streams every week. I think they're every Thursday at the time of this recording. And he's just. I mean, he's always covering one core topic, but he goes for something like two hours. He said, like, you're getting access to his brain and his thinking around that specific topic for that long. And I know I've sat down through many of those, and they're all recorded, too, so you can go back and check them out if you wish. But go do that at a minimum. But go follow what he's doing. Steeler Winners is absolutely amazing as well.

Oh, yeah, no Stealer Winners is really cool. I always pull some cool tips from there every single month. But one of the things about his live stream that I thought was really cool is he essentially has a commercial for his office offer for the first two minutes every time he fires up the live stream. Like, he probably realizes it takes a few minutes before people start piling into the room. I mean, room, it's on Facebook or YouTube, but for people to actually start seeing the stream. So that first couple minutes, he's not sort of wasting his time talking about what he's going to talk about. He's spending that first couple of minutes like, here's the commercial for my offer. All right, now that a few people have sort of rolled in, let's get into it. And I thought that was a really cool approach.

Yeah. Oh, and also, it's thinking around Clubhouse. That was good, too. Being a moderator as being, like, good practice. And also probably the best way to get connected and all that. I mean, like, way to grow a following. Ah, so many good things. All right, we got to cut it off here.

We don't need to recap everything we talked about.

My brain's like, ah, I was so good. Yeah, get the action guides. The action guides are probably going to be all over the place, but hopefully sue kind of organized a little better because we're all over the place. Place. The action guide is free for two weeks of this episode going live. So go get it@flowchart group.com.

That'S the place.

And that is the place@flowchart group.com. and that's a Facebook group. Make sure to enter your email, though, on the questions that pop up when you go there. And you'll get the notes. If you don't, then you won't get the notes. Pretty simple. So flowchartgroup.com and also we have our Pot Hackers sponsor. Not sponsor. Pod Hacker. Yeah, that is our thing.

We have our wonderful sponsor, Pod Hacker. We just happen to be the sponsor and the sponsoree. Sponsored sponsoree.

I'm just gonna let you work that one out.

Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah. So Pod Hacker is our brand new course as of this month, all about Pod hacking.

So much more in a course, Matt. Come on.

It is a community.

It is a lifestyle.

It is a lifestyle. Are you a Pod hacker yet? Go to podhacker.com and find out.

Ooh, that would be one way to find out. Yeah, I know. Check out Pod Hacker. This is literally us opening the curtain. Everything we do not only on podcasting, but also in the business side of things. So one of the most common things that we see an issue is how do you make money with podcast? What the heck do you do at this time that you're sitting around beyond a mic and feel like you're not really talking to anyone? Or maybe you have someone on Zoom and you're like, cool, that was fun conversation. What do I do now? Well, Podhacker explains that we have a full journey. Walks you through we actually have, like, three phases. Build, engage, Amplify, and monetize.

Beam.

The Beam.

The Beam.

We had to come up with an acronym. Come on, you know, a readable acronym. But yeah, I mean, that covers you everything through logs.

It's better than our original acronym, which was tits, remember?

Yeah, I don't know who came up with that one.

I do. It wasn't me. I just.

I don't think it was me either.

It wasn't either of us in the room. I'll just put it this way.

We'll leave it at that. Looking at you, team. Yes. Jk.

JK Also, that was the initials of the person who suggested jk.

Just can't keep saying JK until he realizes who he is.

He knows.

I know he knows. It was a great acronym. But yeah. So everything all the way from launching the show, if you don't have one, launch, but if you have one, it's optimized now as you go through the build phase. Engage. I mean, you gotta get your listeners engaging with you in somehow. So we talked about how we do that. Then Amplify is the other phase where we're talking all about the strategies to growth, hack, and get more listeners of the avatar that you actually want, not just everyone. And then, of course, Monetize is the last one, so that's where you're gonna get multiple revenue strategies. I mean, we have affiliate. All of our affiliate stuff in there, our membership and our newsletter strategy. And then also. So everything. Shoot. What's the last one? I'm blank. Oh, sponsorships.

Yeah. And I mean, there's other stuff in there too. Doug Sandler has a training in there on monetizing your guests. We talk a little bit about merch and actually selling merch off the back of your podcast.

Lisa Byer hooked it up with a fat case study of how she launched her podcast with 50 episodes after learning this whole method here and kind of chatting with us. And Lisa's just so cool. So check out her stuff. But yeah, her case study, it's actually on the Pod Hacker page, so you can go watch it. And it's literally a ton of content. So if you just want to learn some stuff from her, even go check out podcast podhacker.com podhacker.com.

And then finally.

We have Easy Webinar, our favorite sponsor. Out of all the sponsors we have right now. They're my favorite.

I would agree with that one. Yes.

So Easy webinar. They do live webinars, hybrid webinars, automated webinars, all the webinars, they do all the webinars. Evergreen Webinars. Yep. That'd be like, automated, right?

I guess.

So all of the webinars, they do.

Them and there's ways to, like, easily. They're, I would say definitely the easiest. Yes. And then also the easiest webinar is.

Just a little bit longer of a domain. So easy. Webinar is good.

I would say that's pretty good. Typically, webinars are pretty difficult. And it's not the webinar itself. It's the stuff you're doing afterwards or during even, you know, all that tech nonsense that you really don't want to be dealing. They handle it. They do. And they give you cool dashboards to understand what the heck you're doing with stats and. And whatnot. So go figure it out. If you're doing some webinars, you need that in your arsenal. Go get it@easywebinar.com hustle and you will get a big discount. Big discount@easywebinar.com hustle.

Go there.

Thank you so much for listening and.

Share this episode around. I know you know somebody that needs to hear this, so share that with that person. Otherwise it is not cool of you. So be cool. Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliffs Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice, simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to, and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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