Rob & Kennedy - Email Marketing Tactics From A Mind Reader And A Hypnotist

I think part of the first thing that is really good to talk about with email is the fact that lots of people think that email marketing doesn't work anymore and that, you know, it's all about social media, it's all about messenger bots, it's all about, you know, the next thing that's going to kill email marketing. And the truth is, like, for all businesses, I mean, you guys know this, for all businesses, email is still like the number one converter of sales generally. Like, it's just awesome. So we have a philosophy that is you should build your audience on social media, but build your business by email.

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Flowchart with your boy, my boy, Matt Wolf.

Joe. Hey, buddy.

Welcome back.

Hey. Now, today. Yes.

Let's talk about some email marketing. Let's get tactical with it too.

I think we get very tactical.

No, I'm pretending like we haven't done it yet.

Oh, I expect a lot of tactics out of this episode, Matt. Yes. About email strategies and psychology from a mentalist, AKA a mind reader and a hypnotist.

Yes.

Two different people, not the same person.

Yes. And today we're talking to Robin Kennedy.

Yes.

And they're from the email marketing show and they have a tool called response suite and they've got a really cool membership about email marketing called the League.

They do. That was all very accurate. And one of them, AKA well, you know, I'll let them tell you. But yeah, think about the. What I was saying about the mentalist and this in the, you know, the hypnotist. Hypnotist. I don't know why I can't say Hypnotist doesn't flow out at the mouth. Think about how that just. What?

No, I'm just, I'm thinking about how that could be edited, the out the mouth thing.

But Jesus, Matt, get your head out of the gutter. We're talking about email and it's going to be epic.

Yeah.

I kind of have a belief that you're going to love it and I really know you're going to need some notes as well. Yeah. Just because notes are required when there's probably. I'm just going to imagine about 10, 15 strategies that are very specific that you can walk away and try for yourself right after this episode, you know.

Specific types of emails you can write to get a better response. I'm hoping they give us some of that kind of stuff.

Welcome series.

A welcome series like how to manage sequences versus broadcast. I really hope they give us some of that kind of information.

How to write a daily email and always know what to write about with a simple framework. And you can really use just what's happening in your daily life and wrap it into something that someone will actually purchase and be interested in.

How to promote the same thing every single day but have different messages.

These are just all guesses of things that you're going to want to take the notes on. But you might as well just get our free notes because they're free.

I'm really hoping they explain to me why I don't need to focus on open and click rates anymore.

I'm going to leave that for the for you, the listener to understand what that means and then make sure to stick around to the end to the banter section. Yes. Get the notes Matt. How do they get the notes?

If you go to hustleandflowchart.com comp we'll send you some notes on this. We'll give you the action guide, we'll give you the steps that they actually told us to do and you can have those steps as well.

Legit action step in them. Their notes. Yes. Hustleandfluidchart.com comp get them. It's two weeks is your deadline to get them for free. The other is Ahrefs.

Yes, Ahrefs. We're actually literally in ahrefs looking at our screen right now. We love em. They're our sponsor and I actually just did a search for email marketing to see how competitive it would be to go after the keyword email marketing spoiler. Really, really competitive.

It's very hard. Owns the space.

It would be really hard. But what I'm looking at right now it's telling me all the top 10 on Google and they're telling me how much search volume I'd get. It's telling me like how many keywords and article that's in the top 10 is ranking for. It's telling me the domain rating, it's telling me how many backlinks. So I basically have this whole data set of how can I go and reverse engineer the top people on Google for this keyword? Pretty damn killer. I fricking love Ahrefs.

And I mean here's some tie ins with the emails too is like I'm just looking at it. There's Optinmonster. It has a beginner's guide to email Marketing. You have Neil Patel Beginner's guide to Email Marketing actually maybe there's a trend there. You can kind of piggyback off of that. But like, if you think about it, if your thing was all about email marketing, might as well do some research here, see where the trends are. Check out some of these most popular guides. You can get some, you know, some ideas for content, some inspiration. But yeah, Ahrefs. I mean, we were digging around. There's just so many things in here. Yep. It's perfect for anybody, beginner or Expert. There's a $7.7day trial that you can get at AHR.

That's hrefs, but make sure the A is on there. A H R E F s dot com. You're going to love it. Seven dollars, seven day. Get in there. Now let's get over to Robin Kennedy. Robin Kennedy, the ultimate duo from uk. How are you doing?

Good.

The most important one first.

We knew you first.

Best to last.

Well, we actually, we have a little bit, a little bit more history with Rob. We go back to somewhere around 2009. We were all in a coaching program together and got to know each other. So Kennedy was sort of introduced a little bit later in our lives. But now we're happy to talk to the whole.

I liked, I liked their, their interactions though. This is how their partnership works. We're seeing the insight of like, Rob likes to be first. And, you know, basically what happened here.

Is they, you know that really big bonus that you leave out till the very end? That's what I was.

Icing on the cake.

Well, you both have epic hair. I don't know how you maintain that with such tight lockdowns and whatnot, but you somehow keep that going on just for everyone not watching. Rob has amazing red hair. And then Kennedy, you have hair like mine, except a little whiter.

Platinum.

Platinum, Yes.

I just moved in with my hairdresser. That's how I've solved lockdown. That's the solution.

Just brilliant.

Live with the hairdresser and then lockdown doesn't get in the way. I didn't really.

Is there an app for that? Which I know, which is funny because.

We did talk to Taylor Welch, like last week and he literally married his hairdresser.

So there's a trend.

Yeah.

All right, enough of that. Yeah. So we have history with a long history with you, Rob, and that was, we've talked about on the show how we got kickstarted in a coaching program. It was Alex Jeffries, but we met so many other people in that space that helped us really, it was like our catalyst to get going. And we've kind of kept in touch over the years as well here and there at Events. And randomly, even though you're far away from us, we just somehow meet up in Vegas or Florida for whatever. But now you guys are doing a whole bunch of other things, too, and partnered up.

Yeah. Amazing times. Amazing times it is.

Well, you guys, I mean, let's talk about you got Kennedy, how you showed up. I don't know the whole story there. So take us back, I guess, as the duo, and maybe independence. I don't know. Whatever makes sense.

What is the story of Robin Kennedy?

How did.

How did Robin Kennedy.

It was a dark and terribly stormy night. I mean, Rob, do you want to talk about how we talk?

Yes. So we have a bit of an odd background, as you guys know, but listeners may not. I'm actually a hypnotist, so I've spent the last 18 years traveling around the world performing a hypnosis show, hypnotizing people, making them do crazy things just for the fun of it. And not that less time ago than that. That's a terrible sentence. Like nearly that long ago. That's a. That's a bad sentence as well. Use your English.

Use it. Use it.

Well, sir, a little bit less time ago than. No, we're still not there.

Anyway, I feel like you're doing hypnosis on us.

You're doing something on us.

And Kennedy is a mind reader, or as you guys in the States would call it, a mentalist. So he goes out on stage and uses, like, psychology and reading people and influence to make it look like he can read people's minds. And we met at the coolest place on earth, which is called a magic convention. So we went to this. This convention for magicians, and we were sat by the bar. Kennedy's three years older than me, so he groomed me, and then we became friends very quickly, basically. And we have a very similar outlook on loads of things in life. And we both work in sort of different areas of what might be known as psychological entertainment. And we realized as entertainers traveling around the place, performing, we'd accidentally started a business. So we had to learn how to brand ourselves, price ourselves better than the competition, higher than the competition, still get work, fill our calendars with work. And so suddenly we had to learn all this marketing stuff that we didn't really care about, but it was important. And along the way, we fell in love with email marketing, just independently. I signed up for an AWeber account, and Kennedy signed up for an AWeber account. And then, of course, I started to investigate that world of Internet marketing, which is how we met, of course. And learned email marketing and realized that was a great way not only to book gigs and to get audiences into venues, but also to sell programs and courses. So that led me to creating and selling stuff to do with helping people become a hypnotist. And at the same time, secretly. We'd never discussed it. Kennedy was selling courses for entertainers about how to price yourself, get better gigs, get more gigs, build a business as an entertainer. And so we were both selling this info product thing, me to hypnotists and him to other entertainers. And then one day we just swapped notes and said, by the way, and doing all this cool thing with email and selling stuff. And. Yeah, so we just kept doing it and exchanging notes and masterminding ideas, I suppose, until just a couple of years ago when we started on this journey of partnering together to teach it and share it and all that stuff.

Nice. That's an interesting blend. Now, Kennedy, what's your story? What's your take of that all? Yeah, I mean, what's your side of the story?

The same thing happened. I was standing at a bar.

It's very similar, funnily enough. Yeah. I mean, basically what I think a lot of people don't realize is when you're a professional entertainer, those gigs do not just come knocking on your door like you have to do marketing. It's like what Gerber talks about in the E Myth, where you're the technician and then you end up also being the finance person and the marketing person, the sales, and you end up doing all this stuff. So that's kind of. Yeah, I ended up just studying a lot of marketing that was derivative of like Dan Kennedy stuff. Very direct response. And that's why I was able to book gigs completely. Cold people visited my website because I had a benefit laden headline, whereas everybody else was talking about how wonderful they were. I was just cleaning up. And that worked really, really well for.

Me to begin with.

And then, and then people kept asking us, hey, how are you doing that? How are you doing the email marketing thing? And just became good at it and just strangely enjoy it. Like love, love putting together email strategy and figuring out how do we. One of the things, I think as entrepreneurs, we actually just are human beings, psychologically speaking, as we compartmentalize. So how many times have you realized you have a skill you use in one area of life and you're struggling in another area of your business and you go, hang on, I've already got the skill for this and I've never transferred it from that bit of my life. To that bit of my life. And it's the same for us. We use the same skills of influencing people, understanding human behavior, moving people through a bunch of beliefs that need to be created. That's what you do when you sell something. That's what you do when you are marketing something, when you come up with your phenomenal offer or whatever. So we're literally transplanting those things. And the really interesting thing that we were sort of told this is not our idea is.

The responsibility for getting it right is much higher when you have to do it on stage. If a marketer doesn't like, if their funnel doesn't work very well or that sales page doesn't convert very well, or that email doesn't work, what's the worst that happens? Okay, you might have wasted a few grand in a few thousand dollars or you might not get the sale and all that sort of stuff bad. But if Rob goes on stage and he does not hypnotize those people or I go on stage and I'm not able to figure out what that person's thinking. We don't have a career. Like we're paid to be reliable, to reliably show up and be able to do those things every single time. So the stakes are much higher when you have to do it in front of audiences of hundreds, if not thousands of people. So we take those same skills that have to be relied up on. We're not talking about made up NLP and other pretend sciences. We're talking about stuff that actually works.

Okay, you have me very intrigued in many ways. I kind of want to hear. What do you have?

Well, I want to. Well just I want to keep on going down the story route a little bit. And then, and then I think we're going to get like real tactical with this episode, which I think we're both really excited about. But you guys also have a software platform, responsesuite. So how did that come into the mix? Like, you know, why, why that specific type of software? How did that come into play?

Right. I think the thing is we are both obsessed with understanding how people think. That's kind of. And if you do that, you can basically read their mind. So one day Rob calls me up and he says, I really want to run a survey, but when someone finishes the survey, I want to tag them or something in my email marketing platform. Might have been aweber, might have been infusionsoft at the time, can't remember and just let my platform that they've taken the survey so I can stop reminding them to take the survey. So Rob, being naive, thought, well, I'm using one of the big companies, the big one that we've all heard of, they don't integrate with email marketing platforms. So I'm going to drop them an email and see if they'll whack that little feature in for me over the weekend. So he drops them an email, and of course they come back and go, who are you? What do you want? Leave us alone. It's not happening. So then we came up with a whole bunch of, wouldn't it be good if not only did it, was it able to say, hey, that person has taken the survey, but you could take some of those responses or all of them if you want, and put them into your email marketing platform so you could then do stuff with them. And then what if. And this was over a few beers, so there's lots of what ifs and a lot of stupid ideas. Well, it wasn't. I'm saying beers to make us sound really manly. It was cocktails. They were called pink.

Pink cocktails. Yeah, of course.

I mean, they were that umbrellas in them. They had to be cocktails.

Right?

So you're the man too.

Right?

So, same, same.

So.

So we were like, what if, depending on their choices to every single little thing they say in the survey, you could tag them differently? So you end up like a complex matrix of this person is male and they want to do this, but they hate that. And they've live in this kind of area, you know, everything. So now when you've got a promotion, you can just send more relevant stuff. Because as we probably get into in the episode, people hate irrelevant emails. They don't hate emails. They hate irrelevant anything. Like, I hate irrelevant Facebook ads. I'm going, I'm like, get out my face. I hate irrelevant emails. I'm like, you're a spammer with irrelevant stuff. And then the final sort of thing that popped in was like, could we integrate it with Facebook audiences so we can show people different ads depending on what they say in the survey? And what if, depending on what they said in the survey, you could take them to a different thank you page immediately after completing the survey, depending on what they said? And we thought, this doesn't exist. Like, this cannot exist. So we did. Well, maybe. Hopefully it does. We looked around. Rob came back to me and said, have you found anything that does this? I said, no. And we said, why don't we? Because we know nothing about tech. We don't know our forward slash from our elbow, honestly. And we, we said, why don't we start a software company? Which is stupid, really.

Go on. I'm curious where this is going.

Yeah, I mean, so basically we did, we hired a developer based in the UK and the reason we did that was because literally we didn't know what technology it should be built in, what code or language or anything. We didn't know anything. We didn't even know what n.net I think it's net.

Yeah.

We had never heard of that.

We were doing the job interviews and asking the interviewees, the candidates to pitch us on why the language that they were like most proficient in was the one to go. So how would you split?

Yeah, so how would you. What were you using your psychology, you know, like that in your mind reading, like to actually figure like, all right, that guy's full of crap. That one's pretty good basically.

Yeah.

Yeah. And we did like reverse interviews because we remember that, Rob and I, because we've only ever been entertainers. We've never had a job, so we've never run an interview, but we've never been to an interview. We've never been a barista, we've never like, we've never had a job, like. And that's kind of the aim of our business, by the way. The reason we're still in business is because all we're trying to do every day is avoid having to go into employment.

It's a good motivation.

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty good. So, yeah, so we thought, well, if we don't know anything about any of this stuff, why don't we hire somebody in the UK who we trust them. We can breathe down the neck and look over their shoulder and go, wow, those look like good forward slashes and they look like good brackets.

So don't breathe down any more necks right now. Bad timing. Yeah.

Currently breathing from a distance.

Yes.

So, yes, that's what we did. We hired a full time developer here in the uk, set up an office, got another member of staffing, started a software company and that was really this weird thing of like, we really needed it. We knew other people were trying to do similar things with. We've got some really big marketers who we've all heard of. We'll not mention names. That's name dropping. It's just not very polite, is it? It's not very British. But, you know, using it for application forms so you can like segment people so you only speak to more the right people and that kind of thing. It's amazing the applications that people find for this kind of tool, whether it's a quiz or a survey or we have a really good objection handling survey. Maybe we'll talk about that a day. That would be really interesting.

Maybe that's a good one.

I think you'll really like that. Yeah.

So.

Yeah. So that's kind of how it all began.

I like it.

Yeah.

Rob. No. Well.

The odd thing is we've sort of told you the story in the wrong order because responseweek came first. That was chicken, wasn't it? And then egg was the email marketing thing. And that came about honestly because we were really struggling to sell responseweet properly because we're not very good at selling software and we needed a way of generating customers at a profit. So instead we thought, well, let's sell stuff that our perfect customers for responseweet are gonna buy that we can sell at a profit, like info products about email marketing and then sell them response rate on the back end. So response suite came first but now sits on the sort of the back end of our business.

I suppose I just love the fact that you guys, your backgrounds, you mashed those two together in your partnership, but then you thought of this. What's this technology that allows you to understand people's thought patterns, their process of getting to a thing and you can now log the whole journey. We just did this, you know, with a tool we won't mention, but less, less like we didn't have. You just have all this kind of thought pattern behind there with email tagging and automations that can come with that. And of course we'll dig into some of the strategies.

Well, it's essentially like making people feel like you're reading their minds, but through email. It's like you're almost doing the exact same concepts you do on stage, but you're using this technology to sort of do it systematically.

And what's really nice is it's the opposite of that scary stuff that everybody's afraid of, which is the artificial intelligence and the data points that we're all afraid of. Instead of all of that, it's only using information that not only do they. That basically that it's only the information they are happy to share with you. They know they have shared that information and you only use that you're not like being. I think the scary thing about being a hypnotist or being a mind reader is that intrusive nature of it. Well, this is the opposite. This is like, what are you happy to volunteer? Great. And now we're going to work out now we're going to give you the stuff that helps you overcome your biggest challenge or helps you learn in the modality in which you like to learn or whatever that might be.

Powerful, man. Yeah, we saw the data and it's pretty wild. I mean, just asking a small group of folks doesn't have to be a lot of folks, but you can get a lot of data that can really reshape and refine what you're doing for the better in many ways. So I think now let's, let's get into some email stuff. Where would be. I kind of like the idea of like, okay, you have response suite. So that's, that's your software and it does all this amazing stuff that we just talked about, but it allows you to really segment your email list and give a custom experience. I know you do a lot of stuff. So like with welcome series, you gave us a bunch of training actually. So thank you for our members in the Evergreen Profits membership and you deep dive on a lot of these things. But where would be a good, I guess, starting point, you know, now that we kind of laid the groundwork, would it be like a welcome series or getting into the psychology of email? I guess you lead us.

I think part of the first thing that is really good to talk about with email is the fact that lots of people think that email marketing doesn't work anymore and that, you know, it's all about social media, it's all about messenger bots, it's all about, you know, the next thing that's going to kill email marketing. And the truth is like for all businesses, I mean, you guys know this, for all businesses, email is still like the number one converter of sales general, really. Like, it's just awesome. So we have a philosophy that is you should build your audience on social media, but build your business by email because that's like where you own the data and everything's going to be great. So I think for us the first thing is there's this massive mindset shift that loads of people need to have that is I write an email and I send it to my list because I want to make a sale and therefore that benefits me as the business owner and it probably doesn't benefit the subscriber very much unless they happen to want that thing at that exact moment in time. And therefore, that's why I can't send too many emails because then I'm going to annoy my subscribers unless I send loads of content for ages first. And we have this massive thing that, that's just all wrong. And if we just flick a switch in our brain to say, you know what? Every single time you hit send on an email, even if that email sells something, it can have value in a whole bunch of different ways. It can make them smile, it can make them happy, it can make them feel good. They can forward it to a friend because they like your email that much, even though it's still selling something at the bottom, they can, they can, they can reply and tell you how much they love it. Like, literally every day we get replies to our email saying, really needed this today. Like, about two months ago, we got a reply to an email from a lady who'd just been made redundant. And her email said, today I found out I'm getting made redundant. I needed to see this email today. This has made me feel amazing. And that was a really short email. Like 170, 180 words, including a sales pitch. The email itself made her feel so good, she needed to reply and tell us about it. Possibly one of the hardest times she's going to go through in our adult life. So I think the first thing we need to understand is that email is not only a way of selling stuff, but it's a really good way of delivering value. Like, if you're flicking through Instagram and you see a quote that really resonates with you, you might like it. You might comment that, you might even share it to your Instagram story so that other people see it and people seem to have a. Real marketers generally seem to have a real differentiation between that. That happens on social media and, well, now I'm going to send. Send an email to sell some stuff. They never see it as like, that email could be just as valuable as that Instagram post. I think that's the first thing. That's the first, like, big misconception. We really want to change in the world of email.

Yeah.

I think when it comes to email, there's really three things. These are three things that I've identified that I know we've struggled with in the past, and I'm assuming a lot of our listeners struggle with, and I really think so. One is how to grow an email list. I don't really necessarily feel like we need to talk a whole lot about that on this episode because we've had tons of episodes on Facebook ads, Google Ads, organic social media, SEO, all that kind of stuff, which is all used to grow your email list. The other two, for me at least, have been what to write about. One of my big struggles is I Try to email very consistently. So I'm trying to email at least four or five times a week. If I had an idea for an email every day, I would email every day. But I honestly run out of things to write about to promote the same things over and over again. So that's one and then the other one is actually getting engagement when I do email. So I'll email and I'll go, cool, this just went out to 15,000 people. Why did I only get 75 clicks on it? Right. Like so those are really the two struggles that I think we could probably hone in really well on this episode is the, like, how do we figure out what to write about? And once we know what to write about, how do we actually make sure people are opening and clicking those emails?

Right.

Would you agree?

I like the, the. Yeah.

Okay, cool. So the good news is it's actually everybody overcomplicates this. And the thing is we struggle with the same thing. So we struggled sitting down thinking how am I going to email every single day? Which is what we do. We email365 and we get replies365 from people who like it. And we get clicks and we get sales, obviously, all of that maximum stuff. Great. So a couple of things is on the click through rate thing, everyone's like, how many clicks am I getting? How many clicks am I getting? What's a good open rate? We often get asked that kind of thing. Let's put that one to bed. First of all, I really don't care that much what my click through rate is. I really don't care that much what my open rate is. I care on a sort of macro level that oh, that kind of style of subject line people go bonkers form bananas for they love that. And that one people hate and it gets reported and that's not good. So as general day to day ideas, that's fine. But actually what I care about is the macro number and our number is literally this. The stat we really care about is what is our earning per earnings per subscriber. That's all I care about. So I go back, I look at January and I go, how many people are on my list? How much did we earn from that list? Divide one number by the other, that's how much we made. And then we go the next month and we do the same. Is that number the earnings per subscriber per month, Is it going up or is it going down? If it's going up where we're doing good valuable stuff to our list and the great news is it doesn't matter how big your list is, whether you think you've got a tiny list. And by the way, we have people on our, on our program and our membership who come and go. I've only got a small list of 20,000 people and I'm worried, whoa. You know.

And we've got members of our program who, who, who've got a list of like less than 100 who are doing six figures. So, like, all that stuff doesn't matter because if you use that macro measurement of earnings per subscriber, if I've got one person on my list and he's paying me a million quid, I'm going to be okay with that. Like, we've got to remember that's what we pay our bills with. That's the first thing. So let's just not worry too much about that click through rate and all that sort of stuff. That's in terms of what to write. So we have the same thing. We sat down and we said, how do we make this easier? Like, that's all we do all day long as we look at stuff, what do we bring in our business? And we go, how do I make that faster? How do I make that easier? That's all we're asking all day long in our businesses. How do we make that better? That is it. And so we've got a few different techniques that we teach. Let's go through a couple of them. So one of the things I recommend you do is at the end of each day to come up with ideas for emails every day. The end of each day, can I say a very slightly naughty curse word on the show?

Say whatever you want.

I can say whatever I want. Okay, lovely. I was thinking, I listened to the show as well. I'm thinking, you know, you're in that heat at that moment, you go, I don't want to mess this up for me. I just wanted to ask, yeah. So basically, at the end of each day, I've got a Google sheet. Nothing fancy, just a fancy, you know, it's a Google sheet. I mean, Google sheets are really fancy.

Pretty fancy Google sheet.

Yeah, right. And I just ask myself, what is the least boring, the least crap thing that happened today? That's all I ask, what's the least boring thing that happened today? And then I write it down. It doesn't have to be a great thing that happened. It could be as simple as Rob the other week, he was reaching into his airing cupboard and he was trying to grab a towel or Something out and some shower gel, like a spare bottle of shower gel fell out of the thing and made a mess of the spare bed sheets. He's got that turned into an email. And so what we do is we come up with stories and we use a simple framework. We call it the Traditional. We've got, like four different frameworks. We use these daily emails. One of them is called the traditional. And this is what it is. It's basically you go story and you write the story without thinking, how does this relate to my product? Or what is even the message? Like, neither of those things matter because when you do this, you get a free shoehorn with every email.

All right?

Free shoehorn and a handbrake. So you can handbrake turn into an offer. They come for free. Okay, so what you're going to do is you're going to sit down every day and we both do this for separate lists. And we sit down, we write the story. And then it's only when you're writing the story about the least boring thing that happened yesterday, when you're writing it, you will go, huh, There's a lesson in this for, in our case, our email marketing heroes, people. There's an email marketing lesson in this. It's in this case of Rob reaching in and spilling shower gel over the bed sheets. You might think, well, what's that going to do with email marketing? Rob talked about, do you ever overreach? And he turned that into a story and a lesson about email marketing. And then you segue from the lesson. So you go story, lesson, offer. Okay, the lesson is this. And guess what? We help you with that lesson in our program, the league, which is our membership, so that he literally. That's literally the format we use. I would say about 70% of the time, we use that one particular framework. So that's one really good way of coming up with stories every single day. They don't need to always be funny or wild. They just need to be the least boring thing that happened yesterday.

That's so, like, the bar is so low for that, where everyone can come up with a good story like that. That is still very entertaining enough to. Yeah. Wrap a lesson in there. Because you could definitely do that even as micro of a connection of just reaching for shower gel and gel, you know? But like, how do you reach in your business, in email marketing, whatever. And then it's subtle.

You can literally apply to anything.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow. So that's one of the techniques. I'll give you a second one, which is, I came up with one day, because I was literally. I literally sat down and then Rob. I promise, Rob's still here. I haven't put him in a drawer or anything. He is allowed to talk. You're back in again in a second, dude. I'll tag you back in. So one day I was sat. I sat down one morning to do my daily email and I was like, I've got nothing.

Nothing happened. Yesterday. I sat. I'd already been. I've been sick for, like, three days. I can't do a third email about being sick. No one cares anymore. So, like, I need to do something different. Like, I recently got two beautiful little Bengal kittens. I can't write another email about kittens. I can't do it. So what do I do? So I came with this mad idea and it works.

Brilliant.

I probably use this two days a week. Go to Google and look for random noun generator. And you just go and you find a random noun generator, hit go. It'll come up with something. And as long as it's something you've heard of, something like that. And then just ask yourself, what is the best one of those, the worst one of those, the most recent one of those? So my first time I ever did this, the word sausage, I was like, this is a cracking word. If you can't write a story about a sausage you haven't got, you know, you can't write. So. And I just thought, okay, what's the best sausage I've ever had? And I got thinking, oh, well, actually, it was about my friend who. My friend who's from where we live, Newcastle, in the northeast of England, and he married a lady from Germany. And when they did that, they imported all of these bratwurst sausages from Germany. It was the best sausage you've ever had. And then I segued it in. The message of going, that's a lot of drama. That's a lot of work to get into in order to just have sausages at your wedding. What is the thing that your market would do anything and go at that level of work in order to achieve? What's the big problem you're trying to solve? Now, I've got a lesson out of sausages. So it's really simple.

So you're using that as basically like a mind just, like, generates ideas for you, and you're like, okay, cool, you got a noun here. Let's just look at that and let's inspect that for a bit and start brainstorming random ideas and crazy things that come up. I love It. That's so cool.

Nice. So then every single email you're kind of telling this story, then you sort of spin it into a lesson and then the call to action is we go deeper into this lesson inside of our members area and then that's how every single email kind of turns into a. Selling email.

Yeah.

And of course sometimes that can, that can transition into like, especially if it's a membership or like a coaching thing that could transition into not the program as a general but as the module that's just been released this week or the webinar that's coming up on Tuesday with XYZ guests. Like you can transition into specific aspects as well to give the pitch a bit more variety. It's not always just and come and join the thing. And come and join the thing. I mean that's what it is most of the time. But occasionally you can like spin it into a particular aspect of what they actually get when they join too.

Gotcha. So this, this is obviously like a broadcast email concept, right? You're, you're writing these, you're saying these every single day. Do you guys do any sort of sequential email marketing in the business as well? So when somebody opts in or you know, you know, gets tagged as a result of a response suite thing that where they're off in some sequence and, and follow up question to that, when they are in sequences, do they still get these daily broadcasts?

So we have a system, a framework that we call train carriages. And that came about by accident. We were just on a call one day and we give it all of our stuff like ridiculous names which we don't give it when we're just doing it internally. But the minute we need to teach it, we have to give it a ridiculous name.

Right.

People go with that. So the way that our business basically works is we've got all the list building stuff going on and then when people come into our business they go through our welcome sequence which is called the getting to know you sequence, which is what the training is on inside the members area for you guys. And then as soon as they get to the end of that four day getting to know you sequence, they now go into our sequence of train carriages. So the way we see it is that the getting to know you sequence is a bit like when you first get on a train and you hear the train guard say welcome aboard the 1432 train to wherever we're going to be calling at these places. This is how it happens in England. I've never been on a train in the States. So maybe it's.

I've been on Amtrak. That was an experience.

That's pretty much our train experience as well.

The UK experience is way better than the American experience.

New York to Philadelphia, okay?

So they tell you where you're going to be going and, you know, there's a buffet thing's going to come up and down the train. It'll sell you, you know, juice and biscuits and whatever, and you feel good about it because, you know, I'm in the right place, I'm on the right train. And that's what the welcome sequence, the getting to know your sequence, is designed to do. As soon as they come out of that and they know what to expect, we run a survey to them. In it, we ask them to reply to us and tell us more about them. We do lots of authority building and proof and stuff, all in four emails. As soon as that happens, they now go into the next carriage in our train carriages, which is a sales campaign to directly sell them something. So in our case, it's a campaign we put together called the Overture campaign, and it basically introduces them to one of our products from all the different angles. Because the problem is what most email marketing lacks is context. What most people do is they opt into your list because they want the free lead magnet or they want your show notes, or they want whatever it's going to be. And as soon as they opt in, they now start receiving random emails about whatever you happen to be emailing about at the time. Which means if you're on like day five of some launch procedure and you're talking about, I've been telling you about this thing for the last few days, and this is Betty, and when Betty bought it last year, she did this, and now she's a gajillionaire. And they're like, well, what's the thing and who's Betty and why are you emailing me? All I wanted was the show notes. And so it lacks all context. But this has been happening for ages. And that's what causes people to forget why they subscribed, to be confused, to unsubscribe, to disengage, and all the other stuff that email marketing has generally seen. Whereas the way this works now, while they're in these train carriages, they're not receiving our general broadcast. So they don't have like the broadcast tag yet. And so they go through that, that train carriage and they get to the end of it, and maybe they bought, maybe they didn't. And if they bought, then they jump the Rest of the train carriages that are selling that product, and they go into the ones that sell our next thing. So for us, that's our membership, the League. Whereas if they don't buy it, well, they just continue on to the next train carriage, which is a different campaign, all automated, all running on autopilot. And basically, when they get to the end of our train carriages, which right now for us, there's like, in that sequence, I think six or seven, when they get to the end of that train carriage, the train carriages, they now get the tag to say that they're now in broadcasts. And that's where they start receiving our broadcasts. And then what we do is, like, once a month, we create a new campaign and we'll run it live as a broadcast thing to all of the broadcastable people. So not the people who are still going through the train, but all the broadcastable people. And if it works really well, then we'll automate it, we'll pick it up and we'll look at our train and we'll say, well, where. Where would this best fit? Is it between this campaign and this campaign? Or here and here, or is it on the end? And then literally, we'll like a train carriage, we'll uncouple those. Those campaigns, drop it in the middle, and then couple that all back up together again. And then the next month we'll have done something else and try that.

How do you determine, like, a good campaign that you would automate, Would that base be based off of value or earnings per subscriber? That same KPI?

Basically, yeah. And if we feel like, you know what, we ran this and it was particularly different to what we've currently got in the train. So, like, for example, in our mind, we know that most of those train carriages are going to sell our membership, the League. However, as people are going through it, one of them, we have a campaign called the Black Widow campaign. Again, it didn't have that name till we had to tease it.

Awesome.

Basically, it starts. Kennedy's the naming department, so he can take the credit for that. Basically, what happens then is it starts with us sending them to a totally free video, just a piece of content, a video on a blank, blank, white page with no sales pitch in it. But it is the starting point of this campaign. So what's nice about it is it looks totally different from the seven days of pure do you want to join the league? Emails that we've just sent them. And so what that means is they now go through something that looks different if they Never click to watch that video, they never see that pitch part of that campaign, and they just move straight onto the next campaign. So it's got some real nice sort of flexibility in terms of how it looks. So we'll also assess it in terms of where does it fit in their journey, of what they know about us, about themselves, about the product, about what it's going to require for them to be in the product. So, yeah, all of that stuff too.

And the whole point of the train metaphor is that you are constantly making the train longer by adding more carriages in or you're making it shorter because cultures change how people respond. As your list growth changes and the culture of the people you're bringing into your train carriage changes, you'll find that certain carriages stop performing as well as they did. So when you're looking at each individual one, you go, actually, that one's not so good as it. That used to be dead hot. We have one, actually, which used to be really great for us. And at the moment we're like, that's probably coming out next month, honestly. So we can just pull it out, make the trader shorter. That's fine. Because at the end of it all, and we'll probably talk about this one, because you mentioned it earlier, is we have the last piece of our trading card, which is something called the Interrogator campaign, which is the. Basically. Well, we'll tell you about in a second, but after that, that's when we tag them to say, now they're in broadcast, where they're going to get this story led thing. A really interesting thing, though is, and we have to constantly remind ourselves this. So I'm going to say this out loud just to remind myself is our subscribers don't know the difference. They don't know if they're in a train carriage or they're in broadcast because they often have a similar feel to them. They are daily. And when they get out of the train carriages, they're going to be daily. So they don't know where they are. All they know is they are getting the perfect experience based on what they have bought, what they haven't bought, what they do engage with, what they don't engage with, with.

What I would say is once. Sorry, once they come out the end of that train and they're now in daily broadcasts, we sort of see the daily broadcasts as a really good opportunity to make sales, because they make sales all the time, but also a really good way to make sure that we are deepening relationships, maintaining relationships, so that when we go back into this month's campaign, whatever that's going to be, they don't suddenly feel like, whoa, who are these guys? Why are they emailing me? What's this about?

Yeah, the biggest reason people get spam complaints is because one of the bigger reasons is that, I mean, it happened to me the other day is I got an email from this guy and I was like, who is this? If you only email somebody once a month, I'm going to forget who you are. I'm going to definitely have forgotten that I subscribed to your list. So I'm definitely going to think you're a spammer. I didn't even get, didn't ask to be on your list. That's definitely going to happen. And it goes. This whole philosophy goes back to this idea that Rob sort of hinted at much earlier on. And we'll just start chatting, which is about emailing people, not just when you want to make a sale, but actually so at the moment they are ready to buy. You are there. That's a big difference, you know, when.

You show up every day. So you're there, you know, and ideally with that.

Well, I just had a quick clarifying question. So the train carriage concept is one train carriage, Is that a sequence of emails or is that one email that you're plugging in?

So it's a sequence of emails? Yeah, it's an entire campaign.

So right now, your whole, like, train with all of its carriages in it, how long is that? Like a day wise?

So it sort of depends because there's a few opportunities for people to speed up something. So, for example, in one of the campaigns, there's like six emails that send people to go and watch a free video. But the minute they watch that free video, the minute they click to that free video, it will pull them out and it will put them to the next sequence. And if they click to watch that bit, they will skip that bit. So, like, somebody could complete the. I'm guessing, but somebody could probably complete the entire entire train of like six or seven campaigns in. Maybe.

Maybe if they buy the league. Dude, if they buy the league in the first in the Overture campaign.

Yeah, they'll be out.

They're out.

They'll be straight out of it and they'll only then receive membership emails. But if they. Yeah, if, if they go through it, I would say the shortest you could go through it without buying anything, which you shouldn't do. But the shortest you could go through without buying anything is probably like four weeks, I think. And it probably extends to be like maybe 12 weeks. If you like took the, if you watched the last. If you clicked on the last email and then the last email.

I want to go to Kennedy really quick. So the interrogator, you mentioned that. So let's discuss. Seems like, okay, all right.

This is one of those things. We actually came up with it for a client and then we were like, this is really good because we actually don't do client work anymore. That's not true. We take on one client a month just to say current. Because we like talking to people honestly, which is nice and it's nice. But the interrogator came out because of one of those bits of work and it's basically, you know when you've done like a promotion and you're like, usually if it's your own thing, it's harder to do if you're doing affiliate stuff. But like you've got your own thing. You're like, I've put you through this campaign, I put you through. We've got. Rob said, we've got all these different weird names. We've put you through a Golden Cloak campaign and we'll put you through a Black Widow, we'll put you through the Temptress and we'll put you with all these different things and then you still haven't bought. So this is like how many emails are even in the, in this campaign in the interrogator argument?

I think it's like four or five.

Is it four or five? Basically we send an email and the email just drives to a really simple one question survey and it says, look, we've been telling you about this thing. We're thinking it's going to be a great fit. In our case, it's the league, right? So we've been telling you about the League of Email Marketing Heroes, our membership. It's going to help you become the email marketing hero of your business. We've been telling you that forever now. We think it's going to massively benefit you. You're going to sell more stuff. You haven't joined. Can I ask you one question? The question is, why haven't you joined? And just be honest, we really want your feedback. So they go with a survey which obviously is built in responseweet and it's just a bunch of options, literally because response suite passes their email address in, we don't need to ask that email address again and stuff. It all pairs up in the back end, which is quite simple, which is nice. And they literally. We have the main Objections that anybody could have to joining our membership. So for any membership, if you've got a membership or any product, they're pretty much the same. I feel like I can't afford it. Important verbiage there, as you'd imagine. I feel like I can't. Very important to soften that down. So obviously we bring all of our psychology into that. Actually, our first option, this is a really important one, is what is the league? Because remember, another big one of our maxims is you are the only person who sees 100% of your emails.

True. Yeah. That's a very good reminder for everyone. Listening people are giving you the idea.

And more important, even more than that is you're the only person who's 100% of your emails. And you see them for longer than anybody else sees them because you have to sit and you have to think about them. You have to like come up with how it works. You have to write it, you have to click the segment, you're going to send it to all of us way longer than anyone's going to see any one email. So you're the only person who sees all of them. And this is a great case in point. I mean, Rob is notoriously hot on his personal Facebook page, talking about what he does as a hypnotist, traveling around, doing these beautiful theater shows that he does around the country. He goes to this new hairdresser who actually happens to be this, this girl he used to go to school with. And she sits down, he sits down in the chair and he's getting his hair done. And she says, and they're friends on Facebook, been friends on Facebook since school. He hasn't really spoken to us since. And she says, so, so what do you do these days? And he's like, I post on Facebook like three times a day, talk about my show. How do you not know what I do? And this is, you gotta remember, is there are people who just do not see your stuff because of algorithms in the world of social media and because they're just busy in their emails. So at this point, you have to have one option in the interrogator survey, which is what is the league? What is evergreen? What is the thing? And if they click that option, two things happen when they click that and hit submit. The immediate redirect on the smart redirect on the response suite takes them to the sales page to tell them what it is. Also we tag them to have us follow up, an automated follow up sequence which tells them what it is and basically takes them through the Overture campaign again. Right. We don't rewrite that campaign. It's already there. Let's loop them back around and do it all again. Cool. If they choose affiliate, I can't afford it. On the next page you can do a price objection thing. So if you've got a one off cost thing, you could take them to a payment plan. If it's so you can come up with your own perspective on the price.

That would be a custom page after response suite in this scenario, right?

Exactly. Or you can actually build the thank you page in response. We probably wouldn't want to do that. I mean, you absolutely can, but yeah. So literally they hit submit, they go to the next page, it's another custom page and it's. I mean, each of us has a video of me just explaining the overcome of the objections to Hey, I totally get it. Like price is difficult for us entrepreneurs right now. I mean sometimes you've got good cash flow, bad cash flow. We have that too. I understand. And then tell them how we're going to overcome it for them. What are the other objections?

Right. So I feel like I don't have the time for this. So like you could give them something that helps them implement it quicker. You could give them a smaller package where they get a bit less stuff and therefore it's not as overwhelming. One of the ones that we use, I don't know if it's going to work for me. That's a great place to offer them the chance to take it for a trial. If you've got like a $1 trial or something like that that you don't like sell publicly, you could just offer it there. Likewise, you could just emphasis the money back guarantee or like the, you know, the 300% money back guarantee. Whatever it is that you do to overcome risk. So any sort of risk reversal stuff. And the last one for us is this is actually.

Go on.

Sorry. Yeah, just on the, on the Will it work for me, the original client we built this for. The way they overcame that is if you've got a lot higher price thing they were selling a $2,000 course is to say do you want to get on a call? On a call, one of our team members is a good way of overcoming the will it work for me? Hey, I just want you to call one of our team members and we'll see if it's a of it for you. Sorry, go on, Rob.

The last one. And this is something we only added fairly recently actually. Is this email marketing in our case is Just not a priority for me right now. Because what we did realize is we had some people replying to that email saying, well, none of those are a fit. It's just, I'm not focused on email marketing right now. It's as valuable for us to know that this is not a priority for you and your business now as knowing the reason why you didn't. Any other reason why you didn't buy it? Because we can stop emailing you as much because. Because email marketing is all we have to sell. And if it's not a priority for you in your business, but our lead magnet brought you in, that's really useful for us to like put you in a pot of people who maybe don't need to hear from us quite as much. You could go as far as to say, okay, great, when would be a good time for us to follow up and loop round on this? And I haven't put a date in and you can literally hook it up in your system to email them again. We haven't done that. We might now, but basically I think we added that fairly recently to stop people replying. That's our other option. It's our. I just don't need this right now.

I've got a name for that campaign, by the way. When they put the date in, it's gonna be called the Revenge of the Interrogator campaign.

Sure. They're gonna love that.

So I'm curious. I really, really love this interrogator campaign. I think that's brilliant. My only question is, why is it so far down the sequence? Why is it the caboose, essentially?

I mean, we want to give it everything we've got to sell it to them before. Like for us, that's our last ditch attempt. Like if you, if you get all the way through everything we've got and even with everything we throw at you, you still don't buy it. For us that's like the last opportunity now. It's not the last opportunity. The last opportunity is the day before they unsubscribe from our emails one day. Because we're going to continue marketing it through daily email and all of that stuff. But for us, it's our last campaign because it's the one that's the most like, I just don't get it. Why haven't you bought it?

Makes sense. And yeah, you don't want to just rest on your laurels that like, okay, well maybe one day in these broadcasts, you might as well really condense that effort and get a lot more Data. And then you know, that can just help you build more, maybe, maybe more of the cars on the train if you need to, for the future or broadcast.

Yeah, that is very true. Yeah, you're getting a lot of data there.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And what's really nice about it as well is it gets people from a passive state of mind, that passive state of reading emails while ignoring emails, which is what they've been doing, or not clicking and buying. Damn them. And it makes them go into a, a positive state, into an active state where they're filling out a survey. They've clicked a link in your email to go take a survey that's an active state piece. And then they're going to click again to tell. And they'd have to think, is it this reason? Is it that reason? You've now activated their mind, which you, you might have given them a chance to do before by watching videos or other things, but this is the first time where they're actually having to get involved and do a little bit of work to tell you something. So now you've reactivated them in many ways. So at that point when they hit submit and they come to the objection page, objection handling page right after it, you've got them in a much more active state than they've probably been in for the entire thing. So I think that's the reason it works and converts really well as well.

It's like a re engagement opportunity as well. Even if they don't buy right then and there, hopefully in the broadcast sequences or whatever, you know, they, they're apt to, you know they're going to reply or at least pay attention to you a little.

Yeah, I'm curious, like how many of the sales come from that, you know, that end portion versus like other sections of the train.

I don't have the exact numbers on it. It's higher than you would think. We find a bit like a launch. You know, when you launch something, you tend to have like a massive surge in the, in the beginning and then a bit of a surge in the middle and a huge, huge spike at the end. We sort of have that with our train carriages. So we have a bunch of sales come in from the Overture campaign at the beginning. Then we have a campaign in the middle called the Golden Cloak. I think for us that's probably the highest converting campaign in the entire sequence right now. And then at the very end we get another spike coming in through some of the objection handling routes. And we track it all with UTM parameters and stuff so we can see what's actually generating the sales. So, yeah, I would say it sort of follows a bit of a launch trajectory over the course of the whole train.

Makes sense. I really. And I know we've been covering some of these, but I really want to dig into some. Some of the psychological strategies that, you know, a hypnotist and a mind reader use an email. And I know a lot of that is the sequencing and really understanding how people think. But is there anything specific? Like if we want to rattle out some tactics that are just kind of like, oh, that's a good one to use. That's a swipe right there for folks.

Right. I mean, one of my favorites is what we call the dreaded dentist phenomenon, which is basically.

We've all got stupid names.

I love it.

But basically, if you're teaching.

If you're teaching something, like, we're going to use the dentist as an example, because I think that's kind of a nice, simple way of thinking about it. Basically. I remember as a kid, I, like most people, hated the dentist. And then I just got, like. Basically my parents were not, like, so stern and, like, making me go to the dentist. So years went on when I just did not go to the dentist and my teeth were a train wreck. Hello. Yeah.

They were just terrible. It was like Kennedy and his dancing teeth. Right. It was all. And so. And so I just avoided going to the dentist. But the reason I didn't go to the dentist was because after every day that went by from not going and not going, not going, I dreaded the idea of going at the dentist because I knew I was going to sit down in the chair and he's going to say, how long has it been since you've been the dentist? And I'm going to go, six years. And he's going to go, oh, well, you can tell. I mean, that's not very good, is it? Yeah, I'm going to get a slap about the chops, right? I don't want that. So what happens is I put off being seen by the dentist. So I just didn't do it for years. And then one day, I just bought the courage. I heard about a really good dentist, and I finally did it. Why? Because the really good dentist, I was assured, was not going to do the dreaded dentist thing. He was not going to do the judgmental thing. So this kind of thing applies really well. If you're teaching fitness and wellbeing, that kind of thing of, like, the biggest objection you have is, yeah, yeah, but I'm out of shape or I can't even run up the stairs or I get tired running a bath, you know, whatever it's going to be.

A lot of us have to overcome that and we have to. And that basically comes down to the overarching psychological principle that we can't change people's beliefs. So beliefs is the whole thing of marketing. It's all about the beliefs that we build. What we can do is, is build on beliefs. So we have to take someone's existing belief and figure out how do we move, how do we take what they believe even though it might be the opposite of what we need them to believe. How do we take what they believe and build upon that as the foundation to get them to where we need them to be? Every single time we come up with a new campaign, we sit down, it always begins. And this sounds like a theory, I promise you, it's absolutely the way we do it. We sit down, we say, what are all the things they need to believe before they could possibly buy what we are selling here? And all we do is go lots of beliefs. And then every email, every ad, every communication, everything we put on social, everything we put on our free Facebook group which supports the email market, all that sort of stuff, everything supports that belief. And because if you're not supporting the belief, you're taken away from it, right? So it's all about beliefs. That's really what, what all of this is about in the most simplistic and broad sense.

I think what's really interesting about that is if you take for example, somebody who believes that email marketing is dead, right? Email marketing doesn't work anymore. It's really hard for us to convince them if we just come out and say, no, no, no, it's not dead. Honest, I promise, it's excellent. You should definitely try it. Like, that's just not going to fly. They're not going to suddenly go, oh, well, they said so. So. So it is. So rather than say, no, no, you think email marketing is dead, but it's not. What we actually need to do is say email marketing is. Is dead. The way that people have been doing email marketing for years has been dead. I've nudge away from what he actually believes, but by building on that belief. So now we can move it. Say the thing is, if you just do what everybody else is doing, of course you're going to blend in with the noise and you're going to. And I've just moved it one more nudge across to where we need them to be. So by taking it, you can slowly pivot that belief, as Kennedy said, by building on it to move them to where you want them to be. And one of the other things that we do all the time is we train people to do what we want them to do, like all the time. In everyday life, online, offline, you are constantly training and persuading and influencing people either towards what you want them to do and behave and believe and think, or away from what you want them to do, believe or think. And if you're not consciously focused on moving them towards where you want them to be, they're naturally very likely going to be moving the other direction. So one of the things that happens if you come and see my theatre show, or any hypnotist, the first thing that happens when you come into the auditorium is loads of things around the venue that are designed to subconsciously make you more compliant. That's just the truth of it. So there's stuff in the introductions, there's stuff in the music, there's stuff on the stage, and the way it's laid out, the fact that you can see there's a row of chairs there, you instantly know there's people going to be sat in those chairs and it builds expectation. So. And there's like, I don't know, hundreds of little things that are going on around the venue and around things I say, around things the music's playing in order to get people more compliant. So the minute somebody comes into our list, we instantly need to make sure that they are being trained to do what we want them to do going forward. So we want them to know that when there's a link, they should click on it, and when they click on it, it's going to reward them with something excellent. So all of our emails have different things they can click on. They can go and click on the podcast, the email marketing show, they can go and join our Facebook group, they can go to our Twitter chat, they can go and they can go and do all these awesome things and each one of them is good. And then we also constantly train them to believe that what we say is true. So, for example, we'll say we were closing keynote speakers at this big marketing event in the uk. And then immediately below that, there's a photograph of us being the key closing keynote speakers of this big marketing event. And they can see loads of people's heads in the audience, right? So we want them to make sure, like in our getting to know you sequence, I think there are probably five or ten occasions there's Only four emails. There's probably five or ten occasions where we say a thing and then prove it to be true, and then say something and then just prove it to be true. Because we want to train them not only to interact and engage with our stuff, but also to believe that what we tell them going forward is true. And the truth is, by the end of that getting to know you see sequence, they will be much more accepting of everything else that we say going forward.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I love that.

Go ahead.

You sound like you've got a really quick little tip, right? So that's quite a those. That's quite a big broad framework. But here's a really little tip and this will be something that we talked about being compartmentalizing earlier, how we have things from one part of our life we don't apply. Otherwise you'll realize once I've told this this is something you absolutely know about, but you're probably not applying it to this thing. Bullet points, right? You've got a series of bullet points on any sales page in an email, right? How do we all write bullet points? Right. We put our big beastly because we're going to write them sequentially, we're going to best one. Great. That's a really strong thing. The next one's good. That was quite good.

What else is there?

There's this and there's this. There's also this included and plus much more stuff. Cool. Great. That's great. That's how we write bullet points, right? It's not how we have to send or publish bullet points. Just because you write them in that order doesn't have to send them in that order. We're going to use a principle you definitely have heard of, of which is primary and recency. We've all heard that. We remember the first thing we've heard and the most recent thing we heard, right. We're going to apply that to bullet points. And what you're going to do is you're going to place your best and strongest bullet point at the top of that list and then after you've written them, find your second best one and put it at the bottom of that list. That's going to mean that your bullet point series ends strong rather than fading out like a really bad DJ at a wedding, right? So you're going to have primary and recency, your best at the top and your second best as your final bullet point. So really simple thing you could really go and apply to any copy right now. And it works.

A tree it makes so much sense.

So I should really stop making my last bullet. Add much more.

What the hell? That serves nothing. That's true. Oh, I love the visual too, Rob. Like of the auditorium and you have all these elements and sound and visuals and all these things and, you know, it's just great to think of that visual and the beliefs that you're trying to have someone believe, you know, and walk them towards something. And now just apply it to email. I mean, it's. It's different, but really it's the same scenario and just. Just make it. And I like how it's very punchy. Four to five emails, but you're giving them options. So it's almost giving them leeway to choose what they're comfortable with, but at the same time leading them closer to the. The carrot total.

So powerful.

I dig it, man. Thanks, guys. You guys are. I don't know how many strategies we covered here. Talk about your email marketing show really quick. The podcast, because we've been on there. I know. It's just a lot of this. Like, there's a ton of value on there. It's awesome.

So it's our third podcast. We finally got it right, that's for sure, because we screwed the other two up. Basically, we just get on every week and talk about email marketing. And then one week it's us, and then the next week we've got a guest, and then the next week it's us, and then the next week we've got a guest, and the next week it's us, and then we've got. When you get the idea. And it's just lots of fun and messing around. But we go really, really tight and really, really, really specific on like, individual tactics and strategies and campaigns of email. So that, like, I think you can listen to one episode and just get like a whole heap of stuff out of it. Yeah, really, really applicable stuff.

But the email marketing show, go check it out anywhere, obviously. Response suite. We talked about that.

I guess. What are like some other favorite tools? Maybe like tool stack really quick. Because, you know, email marketing tools. Any other tools you might use to achieve what you guys are up to?

Yeah, we use a few things in terms of really cool stuff in emails. One of my favorite tools that I definitely overuse. You know, you've got a favorite thing and you overuse it. This is mine. It's nifty images. Do you know about this?

I don't.

This is amazing. It allows you to put. To merge. Like, so basically, in one of my campaigns, we have A thing where I'm holding up a piece of paper. No, I'm so next to a. I designed this, like, five years ago. I think I'm standing next to a dry erase board and I've written on it like, hey. And then their name is in the photograph.

Yeah, I've heard of these. So nifty images. Does it. Okay.

Nifty images. And it's a really cost effective, brilliantly impactful way of just standing out. I have another membership where I mail a physical envelope out to people. And before, when they're sort of in the campaign, which converts them, like, they still haven't bought the. Still haven't bought. One of the last emails is me holding this black envelope and it's got their name on it. And it says, like, can I send you this? And it's like, it looks like the envelope. It's just. Now, we're not trying to trick anybody. That literally is the photo that's been taken. But it's just enough to stand out and make people go flip and help. Heck, that's. That's really cool. It just jolts them a little bit. So we've done that.

We've done a really nice. A lot of the time. So here's a massive thing that I wish more people would do, and that is, you know, sometimes when you, like, land on a sales page or something and you look at it and it looks so nice, and then you buy the product and everything else after that just looks like a dog toast. It's just crap. Like, you can tell they put no effort into anything that happens after the sale. Well, loads of people do it with their emails as well. So, like, all of the email marketing to get people into the program is really clever. But then the minute you're a remember, it's like, hey, it's Wednesday. And that means there's a webinar tonight. Here's the link by. And that's it. Right. So we try and make our emails to members as entertaining, if not more entertaining and useful and clever than the emails that got them into the program in the first place. That's, in our opinion, that's one of the ways you get members for life. Like, if they're. If the marketing that keeps them in is better than the marketing that got them in, that's really cool.

Yeah.

So one of the things we do is we have like a little. Have as part of, like, our onboarding sequence of our membership, we have some little quizzes that people can take. But yeah, three little quizzes. And if they complete all of the quizzes and they're only like three questions. If they watch the videos and complete the three little quizzes, they get a badge and we use nifty images to email them the badge with their name on it so that they can then download that image from the email and go and post it in the Facebook group to say, look, I got this badge. So, like, stuff like that is really cool as well.

Yeah. So another thing I'm taking away is we should probably be collecting names when we ask people to opt in. Because right now the sort of older school general wisdom was just collect the email, you got a higher opt in rate. So we've actually been doing that for the last, I don't know, however many years we've been doing this. We collect the name when they finally buy, but for the most part, our leads list is just email. So it sounds like you guys would suggest get the name because you're going to get a lot higher engagement rates.

Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, and the way we do it, honestly, I mean, I know we're not really going to talk about list building here, but like, for those of you who have stuck with us for the entire episode, let me just slide in our number one way of building our list right now. And I don't mean like it's getting us the best volume. I mean, this is getting us the people who join our list who become customers fastest. And it's our free Facebook group. If people listen to our podcast, our call to action right now on our podcast is converting better than anything. And it's, hey, don't be alone at the end of this episode with all your questions about how to apply everything we've just talked about. Come and find our free Facebook group. We've handily called it the same name as our podcast. Got the idea from you guys. I called it the email marketing show community. Wild idea. Where did I get that from? Right, you guys, 100%. You start this.

So what? I'm sorry, go on.

No, I was going to say a redirect link. I would add. You should give them like, we call it Hustle and Flowchart. Flowchart group.com. yeah.

Yeah.

So we do. So we say either go to your Facebook and look for the email marketing show community or you can go to robandkennedy Group and that will take you there. So that works out quite nicely. But then on the way into the group, of course we say, hey, and this is really cool. Give us your email address and we'll Send you a daily email with tips about how to improve your email marketing. And we'll send you a free gift which is our four day flash sale email campaign that you can go and use. That was working quite well but then we added a bit of extra psychology to that opt in offer offer. And this massively, like I don't even, I can't even tell you the numbers. Massively increased the number of people who gave us their email address on entry to the group. And this was it at the end of that offer. So when you join the group, we'll send you a daily email with an email tip every single day with how to improve your email marketing. Become the email marketing hero of your business. And we'll also send you this free gift. And then we put in parentheses in those round brackets we say this is not a requirement to join this group, it's just a gift. By adding that reverse psychology. Our number of people giving us their email address went bam. Through the roof. And it now means we've got their first name and their last name because it's on Facebook and we've got their email address. They're now on our list. And that converts like crazy.

I love it.

That's.

One of the things I will say about the first name thing is you are right. Like if you put that, if you ask for their first name on a normal opt in form, you might get fewer people giving you their email address. I still think that wisdom stands. And then the sort of follow up argument that most people would have is and when it says hi Matt or hi Joe, people know that that's not really them and they know it's merged. So what we started to do is as often as possible we'll use their first name in a different way. So things like, so we quite often instead of saying hi Matt, we'll say, you know, the cupboard door slammed shut. So we'll like use their name at the end of a sentence rather than that. But then that gives us the ability to do some interesting things with our customers where we've got their first name and their last name name. Admittedly like we sent out an email recently that said, do you remember when you were a kid and you used to go to your neighbor's house and like knock on the door and ask if there, if your friend was coming out to play. And then I put in a quote underneath it. So it would, in their email, if you got it, Matt, it would say hello Mrs. Wolf, is Matt coming out to play? Because we can, we've got the merge data so we can use it in more interesting ways. So I think anything you can do to, like, use the data you've got, but not just start with. With hi first name is a much more powerful way of doing it.

Yeah, no, I love that all this is just like rethinking emails, because I feel like everyone. Just a lot of folks just take emails for what it is. Just like, let's just take hi, blah, blah. Yeah. I mean, you have so many different ways of looking at email. That just makes it so fascinating and it makes sense why you guys are crushing it through email. There's a lot to learn here, a lot to implement, actually. This. I think we already went way over the time.

This is awesome.

What other ways can people get a hold of you? You have the email marketing show as the podcast response suite, as the software. Yeah.

And our Facebook group. I mean, you know, honestly, Rob and I are in there literally all day, every day. We should probably get some work done. Like, we're in there too much where we have, like, engagement posts every single day talking about some element of email marketing. And also the big thing is, is like, answering questions. Because the hardest thing I think that people have with email marketing is they listen to this and they go, that's great, but how do I do that in my business or with this product? And the way that I've structured things, like, we don't want people, even if they never become customers, we don't want people being stuck with this because we're very mission focused. It's kind of a strange thing to do in this big world of Internet marketing. But we genuinely want to fix email marketing that's been so badly done for a long time and abused and misunderstood. The poor thing. We want to fix it. So if you come into our group and you think, how do I do this? Or how do I do that? We're there to answer questions, and it's about showing up and giving value every single day. So, yeah, the email marketing show community is where we hang out a lot. Is there anyone else, Rob?

I mean, we're on the podcast. You can find the email marketing show at the email marketingshow.com or of course, kennedysmatch.com profile, any of those things.

That's awesome. We'll leave it there. All right, good guys. Anything else?

No, I think we covered a lot of ground. I feel around two somewhere in the future, so.

Oh, yeah. And definitely folks who have listened go check out the training inside our membership too, because you guys are rock stars and you're also in our group all the time given value. So got to be everywhere.

So we really know they're not working because they're in their group all day long. And then when they're not in their.

Group, they're in our group.

So we don't need to.

We've got train carriages.

There you go.

All right, guys, thank you so much for your time. See you later, man.

Thanks for having us, guys.

Thanks.

That was.

What was it, Matt?

I don't know. I was trying to think of a good adjective.

That was good.

That was good. That was good.

Better than good. That was a trick word.

Why are you trying to trick me?

I don't know. I was just waiting for your response.

I was going to say something along the lines of like that was some tactical goodness, like for those. For those.

So I got part of the phrasing.

Yeah, you get the part. No, that's anybody who's like doing email will listen to that and go, yeah, damn. I just, I got some, some stuff that I can try now.

Seriously. No, I was feeling like, damn. I mean I got damned from the beginning and I already knew these guys but like hypnotist and mind reader.

Yeah.

Or mental.

I actually didn't know as much about Kennedy story. We knew Rob's story, but I didn't, I actually didn't realize until just now that Kennedy was also a stage performer.

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting duo. And we didn't even get into partnerships so maybe that's like round two.

That'll be in the round two. Yeah, we talked a little bit about it before we hit record, but yeah.

We, we just had way too many. I mean these guys, we knew that they would be packed full of strategies they've we mentioned on the episode. But you know, if you're still sticking around with us, if you are a member of egp, the evergreen profits community, or if you're not, go do it. It's like 15 bucks 59 a year, 15 bucks a month. That it. But these guys have given us, I think it was three in depth videos. These things are like 30 to 45 minute long, like screen capture. Map out your email.

Well, here's what they are. So one of the videos is literally a. Here's how you write your welcome sequence when somebody opts into your email list. The other one was here are some psychological hacks that you can use in your email to get better responses out of your emails. And the third one was here's a revival sequence for when certain people on your list Start to not be as engaged. Here's how you revive those contacts on your list. And each one of those is like a full on training. It's not like a three minute clip. It's like this is a training course on this topic.

It's legit, like deep dive. Both of them on there. Screen capture made just for our community. It's not like some like piece that they posted on YouTube or something and repurposed for us.

Yeah, no, that stuff's in the members area forever Green profits members go check it out. But let's talk about this episode. Like, like what was one thing from this episode that you were just like, all right, that was a big takeaway for me.

I have a lot of scribbles here, but I would say the first one I really liked how simple they call it the traditional. Their way of writing daily emails that are full of a story, a lesson and then an offer. And I thought that was. Well, it solves one of your problems. That is a common thing with broadcast emails. If you're sending daily. A lot of folks have the issue is like, what do I write about? And I thought it was just super cool, the specific phrasing being like, hey, just write a story about the least boring thing that happened yesterday. Like, the bar's not that high, folks. I mean, Matt, you can write about what was the least boring thing yesterday. Go.

Think about it. No pressure, anything.

My day was pretty damn boring.

What was the least boring? Literally, it could be scrolling Reddit.

The most boring was you and I going for a drive and having a two hour conversation. That was the movie most boring. So least boring would be the opposite. No, I'm just kidding.

So we can talk about the conversation. I mean, obviously we don't need to do it now, but yeah, like you can pluck. Okay, hey, we went on this drive or hey, Joe's brain was spinning out a little bit yesterday when we were on the True Story and we're like, you know, not, not flowing like normal. And we had a chat, we took a car drive around for an hour. And then like game planned, crazy deep stuff around the business. Like there's a lot of stuff that came from that drive.

Yeah. And then I came home and played Breath of the Wild. That's probably the least boring thing I did.

I mean, I selfishly want to play the game really bad because I grew up on Zelda, but I'd probably mess shit talk about Zelda, man. Like, what's wrong with that?

There probably is lessons there, but I don't know what they are at the.

Moment, but basically a story that you're working through. Point being, I think that you can really, it's really easy to write emails with that framework. Work story, lesson offer done.

Yeah. No, and I just.

How about you?

I think conceptually this whole like train concept is really, really good. Like you know, you start as like a broadcast sequence, right? So you've got your first like welcome sequence when they get on your list. That sequence is sort of designed to get them used to hearing from you, right? It's like, who are these guys? What are, what set the expectations? They're going to start seeing emails from you daily. These emails kind of look and feel like this and then once they're out of the train, the email broadcaster, kind of a very similar feel. So it's like that. But then after you've got that this sort of welcome sequence now you go and broadcast like maybe a four day sequence, find out if it works real well. If it works real well, you tack it to your, the end of your train and you start pushing people into that sequence automatically. And then over time you're building out this longer and longer and longer train to. It gets to the point where, where somebody opts into your list and they may not even be seeing your broadcasts for the first eight weeks that you're on the list, right. And then after that they get broadcasts that are kind of more of the same. But that whole concept of sort of automating the sequence, right when people get off your list and only plugging in the sequences that have been the most effective over time, I think is a really, really powerful concept that, you know, it's probably been pretty understated by people, you know, but when you study a lot of email marketing, most of what you study is people talking about like broadcasting and you get a lot of tactics around email list growth out there and then very little. Once you have this email list, what do I do with it?

Right?

And this is a framework like go give me that framework.

Yeah, I have a couple more that actually popped out that I thought were pretty dang important or at least stood out for me so really fast. The way that they equate value or like the return of their email list and so their whole thing of earnings per subscriber.

Yeah, that was actually something I was about to question them on and actually like push a little harder. But I didn't, I didn't feel like the time, like it didn't feel like a good transition or like they were kind of going with so many good ideas that I didn't want to like slow the pace of the idea flow by sort of challenging that a little bit. But where I was going to challenge it a little bit is like, doesn't the clicks and open rates effect that? If your main KPI is your value per subscriber, you know, going back downstream a little bit, wouldn't the open and click rate have a direct correlation to your value per subscriber?

Yeah, and I could see. And maybe they're going with like, hey, here's the, the, the broad or like the main, main thing. And then I don't. Yeah, and we could have pressed into this more and maybe that's round two. But yeah, you can could say like, okay, well now that you know this number, if it's lower than the average. Cool. Let's look at those metrics.

Yeah, like there's definitely going to be some correlations between open and click rate and your value per subscriber. Now I 100% agree with them. I think the metric you should be paying attention to is how much you're making per email subscriber you put on your list. If I know the value of an email subscriber is, you know, $200 over the lifetime of that subscriber, I know what I can pay to acquire that subscriber. Totally on board with that. But to not pay attention to the open and click numbers, that's where my head kind of goes. I don't know if I can ever get to that place personally because I know the open and click numbers are what's going to impact the value per subscriber down the line a little bit.

Right? Yeah. And I'm just thinking, I'm like, I wonder. And obviously this is all speculation now, but it's like, yeah, they have. Maybe they're just the types that are not bogging them. Maybe they're just thinking more of a, I guess a macro and then giving it time and then seeing what the metrics shake out and then they go and refine things.

Well, this kind of goes back to something that one of my old mentors, Travis Sego, used to talk about with me is like, when it comes to the emails.

Right.

He was sort of a proponent of not really paying that big of attention to the opens and click rates as well, because his sort of philosophy was, you know, if you're trying to sell a product, you know, the first four emails may kind of like set them up for it. And then the fifth email is the one that like really like taps the Ball in the hole. He like to use golf analogies. Right, Right. So like you know your, your first email may be like the drive get them like as close to like closer to the hole. And then the second one might be a little like chip shot.

Yeah.

That gets you a little bit closer to the hole and then maybe there's a couple putts and then finally the, the final putt into the hole.

Couple putts on the three putts on the grid.

Joe, just follow along with my damn analogy here.

But basically the philosophy is like, you know, maybe your first four emails have really, really crappy click through rate but the fifth one, you close a crap ton of people.

Right.

Well those first four emails all set up that fifth sale. So do you really care about the click numbers on the first four? You know, so various ways of looking at it.

Yeah.

So I do agree with what they're saying. It was just kind of something that I was ready to go a little deeper on the conversation with.

Yeah, no, it's. Yeah, I know they were saying like their main goal and which is a great goal and it's something we do too. I feel like we're doing even more now than ever is like how do I make every single everything easier, like every day? What can I make simpler in this thing? Yep. Last quick point. Maybe not a quick point because you'll probably elaborate and it's okay, we're going over but this is good.

I don't know where the 10 minute thing came from.

I don't really care if our outro.

Is 10 minutes because the people who don't like us have probably turned us off already. And the people who do like our sort of banter banter are still listening. So who cares if it goes a little over 10 minutes.

Here we go, here we go, here we go. Nifty images. That's pretty cool. Cool. I've actually seen that practice used a lot. And there's Mastermind Group locally here that I'm in. I won't mention specific names because I don't know if they wanted out. But using these images for consulting type offers. If you don't have a big list. But if you use something like nifty images and it's customized to that person and I like how these guys even customized it to like hey, I'm going to send you this thing, do you want it? Reply back. I mean just think about you as like listening to talking to listeners is like you as someone who has a high ticket offer or just wants to like really doesn't Need a lot of customers to make a really substantial business. Like you could have a lead list of a hundred people, 200 people and then do very targeted things like that. Yeah. And go for the reply. Be very you know, two way communication with your email and crush it with these personalization things that they've mentioned. And that's funny because that wasn't even the thing I was going to talk about. I saw nifty images. I was like really? Was the customer emails like still crafting stuff after the sale? That was what I was going to say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know one person that I'd love to interview again, I interviewed him years and years and years ago was Andre Chaperone. Right. And the thing about Andre is that he prunes his list insane. Like he's constantly, well he's just constantly cleaning up his list and getting rid of people that aren't responsive. So if somebody hasn't been responsive in a few weeks, you're off my list.

So it's like they don't open the email.

He's like, yeah, but the point I'm trying to make about Andre is Andre like crushes it by through sales from his email list. But his list is very, very small. He keeps his list very tight knit, very like responsive people only. And he is sort of proof that like you can have like a 3,000 subscriber list and make like six, seven figures a year as a result because you're only keeping the response of people on. So like you know, just kind of talking more to. What you were just saying is like you don't need a big list to, to get really, really good results with, with that. You just need a good relationship with the list and you need a like responsiveness from that list. And Andre is someone that's like just pure proof that like you can email a couple thousand people. And I'm, I don't know his numbers, I don't know his sales but him, he's at least making like mid to high six figures if not seven figures.

Fact that he is he's referenced as the or one of the top two email marketers in this space and people mold you know, his, his strategies and like, like George Bryant for instance, friend of ours, he said very, you know, many times publicly and to us like they're buddies and they, he's gleaned a lot of information from Andre and that's where we're modeling a lot of our automations and email emails on the back end.

Yep. Shout out to Joe Kearns.

Yeah, Joe Kearns, George, Bryant, Andre.

Yep.

I mean, we should get Andre back on the show. Yeah. This specific show.

Yeah. No, I've had a handful of email exchanges back and forth with Andre. I just haven't asked yet. So I'll ask him next email I send him.

Ask, man. Cool. Well, anything else other than we're gonna give a shout out in a couple places, but any other takeaways here?

No, I think we. We covered a lot of. A lot of ground, I think. Yeah, let's.

I'm excited about. And just to look behind the hood, under the hood for folks, and it's going to be like weeks later, but really this week and the next week, Matt and I are honing in so much focus on our emails and our sequences like we never really have collectively before. And it's a lot of this thinking, really. It's not these specific strategies, but it's pretty damn near them. So it's kind of like our email 2.0, I guess it's our upgrade that we've been kind of sitting on for a while, but now we have the right mix of people. All those names that we mentioned.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, anybody who's, like, paying attention to our emails, like Rob and Kennedy were saying, not as many people. Nobody pays attention to your email as.

Much as you do.

Right. But anybody who is paying attention to our email, they probably notice we don't mail as frequently lately. That's because we're building a lot of, like, automated systems in the back end to sort of reinvigorate the email list. So once a lot of those systems are built, you're going to see some more emails from us.

Cool. Well, I want to do a shout out the notes. We always talk about the notes at the top of the show, but if you are now at the end of the show and you're like, damn, I wish I took notes. Go get them. They're free. Two weeks of this thing going live at hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m p. And then we also have our beautiful sponsors.

Beautiful.

They're beautiful. I'm just going to say that. Easy webinar. Yes. Casey Zieman and his crew.

He's buff, too. Not just beautiful. Like, he's jacked.

He's jack. Yeah, he's. But I dare to say.

He is beautiful.

Are you about to call Casey hot?

He's so hot, man.

Jesus.

Come on.

You're a man. Call him jacked.

He's jacked.

All right, bro. Casey, come on. Calm down. Later on yeah, we can have a weight lift off.

He'd win.

I know. He'd break everything in my body. All right, so we're not going to talk about Casey's jackedness anymore. His software is jacked, too, with everything. Webinar. You like that?

I do Easy webinar.

If you're doing webinars, you're thinking about it, you're gonna get jacked. Your webinars, you have everything you need. It's basically things that have been pumped with protein powder. It's well rested. It has every option, every equipment that you need to get your. I'm just going with the analogy.

The analogy lost me so long ago.

Oh, it lost you. Well, I didn't lose Bill. All right, so I'm gonna keep talking. Basically, if you're doing webinars, go use easy webinar. It's what we choose to use as well. And a lot of other folks that listen to the show show, they have a special exclusive discount. Up to 25% off, depending on the package you get. Go to easywebinar.com hustle do it. Do it. Maybe put an extra slash at the end for good measure, just to get to the right page in case you don't see that. Up to 25% off. So easywebinar.com hustle go share this around with some friends that like email marketing and stuff, or you think they need some email marketing help. Just subtly push this into the their inbox.

We need more people to listen to our show. We're desperate. We are not desperate.

Don't listen to Matt.

I'm crying right now.

We're trying to help more folks with email marketing in this specific scenario. So go share the episode. Go tell others, please, for both reasons. And we're desperate. We want love from you and others. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliffs Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to, and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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