Roland Frasier — Scaling Your Business By Acquiring Other Businesses

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys Mount Wolf and Joe Fear.

What's up, yo?

We're back again to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast.

You said that perfect.

Yes. I didn't, I didn't say Flowchart this week.

Jesus. It's a good week after all. I think it's a good sign that we have a good guest today as well.

Oh, this guest is, I have to.

Say this is turn guest.

This is probably up there in my top, you know, definitely top five podcasts we've ever recorded.

You're not just saying that, are you?

I'm definitely not. If you, if we had a camera in the corner of the room while we were recording this, you would see us doing that little like mind blown symbol multiple times throughout this episode.

We actually went on a walk right after hanging up, right after this call and we're just like smile on her face, like, oh my God, I gotta, oh my God, I gotta listen to this episode about ten more times. Like put a lot of this stuff to just memory. Yeah. Like where it's a total checklist that I can do a lot of my businessy stuff adhering to what this, what was laid out on the episode. It was amazing. Yeah.

So we're talking to Roland Frazier today. He is one of the co founders of Digital Marketer Traffic and Conversion Summit, the war room, among many other big name, well known digital marketing brands. And on this episode we cover a wide range of topics and I don't even know how to like get into some of the topics.

I mean we, we got some breaking.

News about trafficking Conversion Summit and some new locations.

There is some breaking news and, and Roland told us straight up, this is the very first place you will hear this breaking news. So I'm going to let that set for a sec. Sit for a second. Let Roland tell you what that news is. But hold tight. He'll say it right in the beginning of the episode so you'll close that loop shortly. And then we went into really how he's doing some cool stuff now. When he looks at investments, he's looking for multiple exit strategies for that single entity and that's splitting out all he goes into it. But it's like this thing that he just fell into and now that's one of his key ways to look for opportunities, filter and then maybe acquire new things.

Yeah, really, I'd say the main focus of this conversation is how to scale your business through acquiring other businesses. And I know a lot of people listening to this probably think, wow, that sounds scary. I'm not somebody who could go and acquire businesses. You got to hear this out. Because not only do we talk about all the reasons you would probably want to acquire a business, I think he lists off seven or eight reasons. Here are the reasons you should acquire businesses. He also explains, here's how you go and do it with no money out of pocket. Here's how you do it with no money down, and go and acquire businesses to. To scale your own business without using either your own money or sometimes any money at all.

And the coolest thing in that last thing you just said there with the no money down, I've asked, and I've thought about this for so long now, I'm like, I want a mini playbook or go to guide that has, like, here are the deal types. If going into. And I want to leverage this or partner up with someone, I want to just have a list of things. I can jog my memory and be like, okay, oh, I could probably try that in this scenario. And I've never found anybody anything like that. And the folks I've asked are like, ah, there's just a million ways to do it. Which is true, but I still wanted, like, all right, so what are the Some of the biggies? Roland literally lists those out and goes into detail when and why and how those work. And I'm just like, yeah, no, this is amazing.

This is a master class on scaling your business through acquisitions. And then we also touched on Roland's got a new podcast called Business Lunch with Ron Frazier.

That's right.

He just launched that. So we also discussed why he decided to get into a podcast and what it's done for him so far and where he sees the podcast going. And that was a really fascinating discussion because podcasting is something close to our own hearts.

And he's about to have some. He's about to have some, you know, just random guys like Richard Branson on his show and, you know, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear and, you know, Sarah Blakely. So it's. Yeah, it's a cool show, so you should probably go check it out. So business Lunch with Roland Frazier. Check it out. It's one of the digital market podcasts.

Yep.

And. But the cool thing when we asked him about this is like, hey, so what are. What are some things you're learning? He basically, he's been. He's been mining his guests for, like, how they can think bigger, goal set and all that stuff. And he digs into what this commonality thing is.

Yeah. So he's definitely found some common traits among the successful entrepreneurs he's interviewed. And so he kind of broke down in this episode as well. These are some of the common traits from all these guests that I've interviewed over the. Over this time.

Yeah, this. This. This is a good one. And we'll probably have a round three with Roland because you can never have enough.

Absolutely.

So good.

Before we dive in real quick, we do have our traffic course. We're still running this promo for it where you can actually get a free Hustle and Flowchart T shirt. And I'm actually wearing one of those T shirts right now. I'm looking down at it and playing with it and rubbing my belly pretty nice. It's a pretty nice T shirt. It says Hustle and Flow chart, not Hustle and Flow Shart.

No, those are the defect poop emoji shirts. You don't want those ones, but you.

Can get one of those by going to evergreenprofits.com traffic buying our traffic course. And we'll give you one for free.

If you type in shirt in the coupon code.

In the coupon code. Or you can go to our store on our website and buy one for 10 bucks. But you get one for free if you get our traffic course.

There you go. So learn all about it. Evergreenprofits.com traffic. It's how we run traffic perpetually every single day on all different platforms. Once you learn this, you can basically sell anything you you want. Or do it for other people. That's fine too. Or sell affiliate products. You can do anything you want.

We sell affiliate products.

That's.

And our own products.

We like it.

And grow a podcast. Why are we whispering? Because it's cool and it's a secret. It's top secret. Shh. Okay, let's go talk to Roland, because Roland's way more interesting than we are right now.

That is true.

Okay.

All right. Hey, Roland. Welcome back.

Hey. Hey. What's happening?

Not much, man.

No, this is.

This is long, long awaited. I know we were talking when we kind of abruptly ended the last episode with you. Remember, we're on a good tangen, and we're like, okay, round two is necessary 100%.

Well, let's just pick up right exactly where we left off.

Shoot. We should have listened to that. We should have listened to the last five minutes of that episode so we know where we left off, Seriously.

Right, Right. Exactly.

Well, it did end up being one of our most popular episodes, it's in the top three.

I know.

Although I did see you say that it was recently surpassed by someone.

I believe the Dennis Yu episode is slightly ahead, but not by a lot.

Kurt, Molly was coming after you too, but that's a good company to be in for.

Sure.

So before we dig into things, what's new in your world? Anything exciting?

What is new? We have, I believe, since we talked, we've sold three companies and we've bought two. So that's kind of fun. And then we've scheduled our Traffic and Conversion summit now for the next three years, 2020, 21 and 22, at the convention center in San Diego. So that's a big move for us.

They're going to be at the convention center now. Nice.

Yeah. For 2020 on. And then we've scheduled one in New York in September. And then next year we are committed to. So 2020 now is next year. We're committed to do one in Amsterdam and one in Singapore as well. And we're working on China, if we can. If we can get that in. So that's been. That has all been fairly busy stuff. And we've got some pretty cool strategic partnerships that we've. That we've just formed with some rather big companies for digital marketers. So that's exciting and that's very, you know.

And the New York one, this is, this is the first time you've actually announced the New York one anywhere, right?

We have, yeah. Haven't announced it anywhere. So we're. We haven't announced it to our list yet. We're. We haven't built a site for it yet. So we'll hopefully within the next three or four weeks before TNC in San Diego this year we will hopefully have all that up so that at TNC in San Diego, we can announce the New York one.

That's very cool. Now, are there any concerns with having two in the same year in the same country? Do you think that'll affect attendance to like the San Diego one or anything like that?

Well, it's funny because we thought that, but since we have now partnered with Clarion Events and they have endless research, money and brilliance that we don't have, they actually did really extensive quantitative and qualitative surveys because that's why we had not done it. We had actually contracted a few years ago to do TNC in Florida and we're going to try a TNC West, TNC East. And that's actually, we ended up. We put that off for as long as the hotel would allow us to in Orlando. And then we decided to do an event called Content Commerce. So the reason that Content and Commerce was born was because we had space we had to take in Florida, and we didn't want to just eat it. So we figured we'd try that, but we didn't have the guts to try TNC over there. So these guys, when they came in and were doing all their due diligence, they wanted to see where was the first place that we should expand the event. And so they said they did all the surveys and there was enough people that they reached out to who would not travel from the east coast to the west coast that it made total sense. So we're looking at. It'll be maybe half as big the first year as the one in San Diego. So we're expecting about 3,500 people. But that's a. That's a pretty good start. And, you know, they. They know what they're doing, so it'll be kind of cool. And then there are people who said, you know, well, we'll go to both of them as well, of course.

Yeah, you're always gonna get the Die Hards. And you had what, about 6,000 in San Diego last year, I believe.

Yeah, and we're. We're fully sold out. So the reason that the. That the move to the convention center is we've already sold out of all our sponsor spaces for 2019, and.

We'Ll end up selling out. So we'll be in the 7,000 ish people. And that's like bursting at the seams. So we're excited to make that jump where we can get to 10,000, 12,000, 20,000 people in San Diego as we get that more space available. And it's really cool looking at the space. So it's just giant going through the convention center. You feel like just a little tiny ant compared to the hotels. So it's. It's going to be pretty cool.

Did you ever see it actually head in that direction to something that large?

Yeah, I. We wanted to take it to the convention center for the last two or three years. And we just, you know, it's. It's one of the nice things about partnering with. Somebody knows what they're doing in that space is there were just. We could see that there were so many places that we could make a mistake that would cost us $200,000. Like, just, oh, we forgot to ask for that. And so having somebody that has been there done that is a. Is a big deal. And having the Extra capital to work with is pretty cool too.

I think it's just really cool that you guys are going out there and partnering with a company who has that skill set. You know, they have the research, they have the budgets, just all the systems kind of in place for you guys to leverage. And, you know, a lot of folks probably wouldn't think to do that, especially at your level.

Yeah, it was a real strategic decision for us. The, like, we had several people that were interested in coming in as a partner and buying part of tnc, but we really wanted somebody that would help us expand the brand and that knew what they were doing in the direction that we wanted. So these guys have been around Since I think 1947, and they own 250 different events, huge events that they run all over the world. So they're very global friendly. They're very well capitalized. They're owned by Blackstone Group, which is a $453 billion fund. And they. They've just got all this experience. They've got 2500 employees. So it's kind of funny though, because next month we're all going over to London because now that's. The headquarters of TNC is now London because it's a UK company. So that's. That's kind of fun getting you out.

Of San Diego and Austin, you know, just the US and period.

That's.

Yeah, yeah. And man, I always said, because, you know, we've been back to. We were at the very first one in Austin and you know, it's just the evolution has been amazing. Yeah, I know we talked a lot about that in the last episode we did together. It's fascinating. I love to see the growth.

Yeah, it's fun. Yeah. And I think that one of the cool things is I try everything that I get involved in as an investor now. I try to look for something that's got multiple company arms and multiple exit points. So the nice thing about coming in here is when I came in now, it's six years ago, since we're in 2019. So when I came in as a partner, we had one company, Digital Marketer, and our idea incubator that had Digital Marketer and then we had this kind of like site for survival and we had this event that Digital Marketer owned. And looking at that and seeing that there were multiple points for exit was really cool. And building the goal of building up TNC and building up War Room and building up Digital Marketer and then Rival Media, which is the one that has all of our websites now. Praxio and True Conversion, which are our software companies. It's really fun to watch that. And as they are, this will be the. Let's see, that was the. TNC was the first. We have two right now that are in the middle of selling, we're in the middle of. The deals have been struck and it's in the documentation phase. So those will both close this month. So three of those six opportunities to exit will have gone on and then one of the other companies has been optioned. So it's pretty exciting to see it down the road, your plan actually working out the way you hoped it would.

Now, as you guys are exiting some of these various entities, how does that look for, you know, the people behind the scenes that everybody kind of has seen all these years is the face of these brands like Ryan Dice and.

Perry and you continue for the foreseeable future. So for tnc, we continue to program the content at tnc, even though we sold a majority interest, we continue to be actively involved and our partners are interested in that because our skill set is the programming, the content, finding the people, having the connections in the industry, being part of the industry ourselves, and feeding the content. That really has helped take that event to where it's been able to go. So we're still doing that, we're still helping with the marketing, we're still helping with the sponsorship sales and that sort of stuff. And they're helping with the things that they're really good at. So that's what makes a great partnership, is having people that have two different skill sets that are complementary, not overlapping.

Yeah. Now with the multiple points of exit, that's kind of fascinating because everybody talks about exiting companies scaling. You're great at that. But the multiple exit points is even cooler. Is that something you plan for typically in the very beginning, or is that something you just kind of fall into or.

I'm sure it's by design. I fell into it and then realized that it was definitely the way to go. So right now I'm buying a real estate company or buying into a real estate company. And the real estate company is it's on the Inc list. It's one of the fastest growing in its category in the country.

And it's got really good operators. But what I like about it is that I'm again buying into the holding company. And so while part of it is a retail brokerage, it also has a mortgage company, an escrow company.

A title company, and several other assets that are all fed by that core asset. Just like digital Marketer was feeding all of its other assets. So I like that. So I know that my investment is a good one, but if something happens to any one of those companies, you still have all the others. And I know that there are buyers for them. So when I invest, I want to know who's my buyer in the end. And I'll actually go and talk to the buyers, and sometimes I'll find that there isn't a sale like I thought there would be for a SaaS company that I was offered the opportunity to participate in as an owner. And it's a great company and it's doing well, and it has lots of customers and good revenue and all that. But when I went to the people who would be the buyers and it was two or three of them that I talked to, they all said that they would pass on it. And the reasons they gave me were, it doesn't have paid media customer acquisition. It's in an industry. It's too small in an industry with too dominant a player, et cetera, et cetera. So that was really good because that let me go back and give great feedback to the people who had offered me the opportunity to come in. But it also kept me from spending my time investing a couple of years to find out that I really couldn't sell the thing. Right.

Yeah.

That's super interesting. So when you're going and considering buying a company or investing into a company, is that part of your process to actually go and find out what the potential exit plan is and talk to those potential buyers before you get involved?

Man, absolutely. Yeah. That's. Yeah, I love that because I remember.

At the Mastermind, so I just did it, too.

We just partnered with Brenda Burchard on Experts Academy.

And before doing that, I went and talked to the people that would be the buyer for that, because that was the whole goal. And that was one of the reasons he wanted to partner with us was because we have that skill set. And so we talked about what the plan was, the plan for growth, the events, the different sides of the business. And then I went and talked to a couple of the potential buyers and had a great conversation with them and said, you know, this is. This is where it is now. This is what our plan is. Is that something you'd be interested in? They said absolutely, positively. So that gives me that confirmation. Now I know I've got a goal that when I get to that goal, I can exit. I've got a buyer who's interested and excited that I've talked to them. So they Keep an eye on the business. Right. And then we feed them the metrics. So it really, really helps. And it motivates, you know, motivates our partner in Brendan and the other people in the other businesses that we get into to know that we've got a set of goals and we're all working towards those goals. And then when we hit those goals, we've got a big payday.

So do you actively communicate with these folks, you know, in. After you invest in the company, after you get their verbal agreement? I mean, is there a contract there or some light agreement?

No, no, no contract. Because you don't want to be constrained. And they wouldn't want to either.

Right.

You know, because things don't always go the way you hope they would. But it just really makes sense to me that you. With anything, with any goal, if you set goals for this year. Right. We're just going into the new year as we record this. If you set goals for the end of the year or three years from now or whatever, you need to know what are the steps along the way, but you need to know that that's actually possible. And so I think if you can reverse engineer and start with the end in mind and talk to your buyer and say, hey, what does it look like for you to acquire this company? And they say, well, we actually would be interested in, you know, here are the terms then that's very helpful. And also, sometimes going to. Going to a potential buyer leads. Leads to an unexpected early sale. We just did that with one of our war room members who we partnered up to approach a company that they wanted to acquire. And that company ended up coming back and saying, well, actually, we're in the middle of being acquired by this private equity fund who. Who we happen to know because we dealt with them before. And then they said, but we'd actually like. They'd actually like to buy your company. So we ended up. We ended up helping him, and we're in the middle of it now sell his company. So it's. It's. It's really funny how that world works.

Yeah. And I can imagine, yeah, like, I'm just gonna role play really quick here. Like, say if, for instance, you know, we went to say, digital marketer and be like, hey, digital marketer, what would it take to buy Evergreen? Profits, you know, and. And nowhere near now, but just. I bet you're probably gonna get. Or we would get some pretty dang good feedback from you guys.

Well, you'd probably help us with almost like a roadmap of okay, here's where we need to get to if we wanted to sell this thing.

Exactly correct. Absolutely. And so that, that's all falls under something called exit planning. And it's very, very good to go through that exercise that's, you know, that, that's the thing I do an intensive on. So I have a two day intensive I do on leveraging, growing, scaling and exiting. And my goal in doing that is to provide great information for people who want to find out all the steps to that. But also it, it's a way for me to find companies that are interested in it that we might be interested in buying.

I think it's brilliant, the whole model there. How are the intensives going? Are they going strong still?

Yeah, really good. It's been a fun adventure, kind of learning and growing and trying different things. But it's absolutely something that will continue to be a valuable piece for lead and customer generation for all of our different businesses. We're doing them now in several different verticals. We have them in the digital marketing space and the real estate space and the consulting space and the chiropractic space. We're in the process of doing one in the automotive space. It's pretty cool.

Yeah. And that's another high leverage multiple exit. You know, who knows what opportunities are going to come of those? I would imagine exactly.

From a business operational standpoint, do you recommend that businesses kind of look at all of their various assets and figure out ways to sort of segment them so that they can break them off and sell them?

Yeah, I think it's really smart. And this is something that I just kind of bumbled my way into realizing as most hopeful great discoveries happen. But the thing that I learned in the traffic and conversion sale was that because of how we had structured the company, we were able to continue to have our momentum in all of our other companies. So we were able to spin that off and sell it and get a nice payday from it and get a great partner that will help us go forward. But we also got an indirect benefit, like a direct benefit that we knew was that if we only sold tnc, because Digital Marketer and War Room and Praxio, our LMS and True Conversion, our analytics software, all exhibit at TNC and are critical parts of our business and we are a critical part of tnc, that all of the additional expansion into all those other markets like New York and Singapore and the Netherlands and so on and so forth, that that TNC brand will carry all of those brands along with it to all of those People who we will be reaching effectively for free. Like that's just an ancillary benefit because our brands are being carried by one of the brands that we sold and the finances of the partner who is, you know, who is expanding that brand. Does that make sense?

Yeah, well, they all have their own arms and these like influence. It's a ripple effect that's going along.

It is, but it's a giant piggybacking as a result of that. So that's, that's a pretty cool side effect of that. And having the momentum of having each of those pieces still exists. This is the second part is that we like, we still have our media company. So I would break up. If I think about acquisitions, there are really seven different categories of company that you might think about acquiring. Which also leads you to say, well, these are the seven categories that I might think about in my business. One is competitors. So that's the easy one is you can grow your business super fast by buying a competitor, a competitor that has the same or more customers than you and you instantly double your business. Fastest way. Can't think of a faster. But also you can buy media companies. And media can be blogs, websites, Facebook groups, YouTube accounts can be anything, but anything that is a place that has content that attracts your customer. Demographic psychographic. You can buy companies for teams like we bought True Conversion so that we could have the software development team and then that team was able to help us with lots of other software that we wanted to develop. You can buy people who are vendors of services or people who are vendors of products to either you, your company or your customers and instantly find an additional income stream, customer generation stream, etc. Right. You can buy the supply chain, either up the chain as manufacturing, all the way down to distribution channels, or you can buy ip. So those are the seven types of categories that I start thinking about when I'm looking at acquiring a company. So what are the vendors? Let's use the real estate company. What's the media company? Well, they don't really have a media company right now, so that makes sense for us to go and acquire some. We're looking at acquiring large Facebook groups that attract brokers so that we can get more brokers. Because we know if we get more brokers working under us, then our company becomes more valuable. It has more revenue, it has more transactions. As we get more brokers from that media, it makes sense for us to look at other services and products that those brokers would want. So that's why you have a title company. An escrow company, et cetera, because those are natural companies that we could buy that we can then feed our, we can feed with our existing network of brokers. When we want to acquire additional teams, we can go out and buy a company that does, say, transaction processing or accounting or something like that that can be then provided to our brokers, supply and distribution. Not as much opportunity there in that particular space. And then IP for sure, we go out and buy other software and things like that that we can make available to our broker community. Then all of those different categories become areas of acquisition, but also become potential areas of disposition when we go to sell. Does that make sense?

Definitely.

I love that list.

I think our brains are spinning right now. I'm curious, when you go to acquire a business, how would you typically structure.

Purchasing a business to essentially bring the assets into your business?

Well, it depends on what we're buying. Like, if I'm buying cold into a new industry, like with that real estate, I typically want 20 to 50%. I don't want less than 20 because it has to be worth your time. And it takes just as much effort to go through the process of acquiring and building a company with, you know, with 20% as it does 50. And so I want, I want to know. And it also has to be big enough because if it's like this company, I think the last year sales were 85 million, right? So I want a company that can get to 100 million as quickly as possible. So it's because my time, if I, if I'm leveraging my time and thinking about my return, if I own 20% of a company that can sell for 100 million, I can make $20 million. If I own 20% of a Company that's going to sell for 10 million, I make $2 million. That's nice. But I mean, if you think about, for three or five years of my time, I want to make a lot more money than that.

You think about the effort that it takes in generating what you're going to get. So I typically will look at 20 to 50% on the acquire side. And I don't want to acquire more than 50% because I want my partners to be equally motivated towards the payday that's going to come when they exit. When we're buying a company for a company that we already own in the industry we already own. So like if Digital marketer, we just acquired a company called omi, the online marketing Institute, Digital Marketer acquired that company. So we acquired 100% of that company because that company is going to be folded in as a subsidiary of the Digital Marketer group of companies. When we bought the software company True conversion, we bought 100% of it for that reason. So in that case, we typically want to buy at least 80%.

And that's if somebody's going to stay on and operate in the future because we want them to have a vested interest.

But sometimes we'll buy 100%.

Yeah. So for our listeners that are listening to this show that may not the size of their business is probably not quite the size of Digital Marketer in most cases. How would, how would somebody go about, you know, investigating buying a company to, you know, to get their existing customers or to buy the ip? Do you suggest something like owner financing or going and raising capital from external sources or, you know, what sort of advice would you give somebody who goes, this is really good, but I don't, I don't have capital in the bank to do this kind of thing?

Yep. Well, there's, so I like to buy companies with no money down. There's eight ways to do that as well. So, so I think about whatever the size of the company that you are right now, if you're a small company and you're only doing 100,000, $200,000 a year, then you can still find in each of those seven categories competitors that are doing less than that or maybe up to say five times that are actually viable. So five times 100 would be 500,000 to a million dollar competitor. Five to 10 times. Right. But there's so many smaller assets like blogs. Let's say that you just want to own all of the keywords in your niche. Well then go find out all the blogs who are, or Facebook groups or LinkedIn groups or whatever that are ranking for those keywords that are your key keywords and start buying them. And you'll find like we buy, we bought a 250,000 plus member, very active Facebook group for $1500. That's not a lot, right? We're in the middle of buying one for real estate right now for about that same amount of money. And that's an easy way to access a ton of customers.

That are potential customers that you would never have accessed before. And that would have cost you a hell of a lot more than that had you gone out and acquired them with pay per click. Let's say the average lead, let's say cost you or the average click for a lead cost you a dollar. If it's only a dollar that it costs and you bought Something that has a hundred thousand members in it, then you just got $100,000 worth of leads for 500 or $1500. That's, that's the way to think about it. So it scales up and down the chain easily. Does that make sense as the first step?

It resonates so well right now because this has been the exact theme of the day.

We were having this conversation at lunch about going and we were actually talking in reference to Instagram. Instagram accounts. But we were having this conversation at lunch about going and buying up influencer Instagram accounts so that we can leverage them for their audience.

Yeah, so you want interactivity and ideally not guru specific, personality specific accounts. So you would much rather have somebody that was in the hustle and flow kind of area of Instagram and had a non name account, like an account not named after a person, but maybe, you know, more efficiency or something like that.

And so Instagram accounts, YouTube accounts, Facebook groups, LinkedIn groups, meetup groups, blog accounts, websites, all of those would be, would be things to think about in that area. And that's just media. So then you go to team. Well, gosh, I can't find anybody who programs Then go buy a software company. Go buy somebody like we did that, that's got, that's already got the team. And you might be shocked at how much you can get them for our initial, into almost all of the categories of everything we bought has been zero or as little as. Well, I'd say most of them are zero. But sometimes I think we bought our software company with a deferred initial payment of $10,000 towards $100,000 payment, $10,000 a month. But we were able to generate the money to pay for it from that list instantly. So we didn't really have to come out of pocket at all. Right. So that's like, that's what you want to think about. And same thing with, with adding additional products and services or getting products and services that your customers will be able to buy or having your offer be available to other product and service vendors who have the customers who should be buying your product too. That's why you go out and find other service companies and product companies and same thing. You just, it's, it's, you can go as small as you want to what you can afford. Now let's talk about how do you pay for it? Well, the easiest way to pay for it if you've ever, if you guys ever bought real estate for no money down, either of you?

Not no money down. No, no.

Okay. Have you ever bought it for not a lot of money down?

Yes, I've done like FHA, 3% down, but.

Okay, great. Well, so that's a good example. Have you ever done seller financing?

No, I did a little bit of that. Yes, I have done that.

Okay, great. So it's this like in a company, it's just like buying real estate with seller financing. You get the seller to finance the company. So all of the companies that we have trying to think, all of the companies that we have bought in the last 12 months have been some form of seller financed deal. So in the seller finance deal, you don't need a bank. You're getting the person that you're buying the company from to effectively loan you the money to buy their company. And then if you do it right, you're having the company pay for itself from the money that it's already making. So you've got seller financing, you've got earnouts, which is you can't agree on a price now because the seller says they want X and you want to pay x divided by 100. Right. So they want $3 million for it or $300,000 for it and you want to pay $30,000 for it. And they say, oh, but it's going to do all this great stuff. So you simply put a formula in and say, tell you what, if it does as well as you say, then I'll absolutely pay you that. But you have to consider the law of price and terms. And to the best of my knowledge, there is no law of price and terms. But I like to talk about it when I'm negotiating. So you say, look, the law of price and terms says that you can get any price you want if the terms are good enough. But if you want terms that are 100% cash payment right now, then the price is going to be significantly lower. So which do you want? Well, I want the price. Fantastic. I can pay you a million dollars for that thing. If I can pay you a dollar a year for a million years. And that's, that's obviously a hyperbolic example, but. Right, so I can say if you want $300,000 for, for your company, that's cool. I can pay you $10,000 a year for 30 years because I only think it's worth $10,000. And then that's your point for negotiation. But so that, that's the price and terms argument. Now you get to earn out and you say, so if you believe that it's going to do all these numbers after we take over Magically. And those numbers that you're thinking are the hockey stick. That seems to never happen, but I'm not going to tell you that it's not. Then you have to put your money where your mouth is and say that you'll agree that as long as the company hits these numbers, then we'll pay you that amount that you want. But if it doesn't, then the amount is going to be less and you agree on a formula for it. You can also do a asset based lending deal. So I was talking about that earlier. If they've got any kind of assets, they've got purchase orders, accounts receivable, hard assets, leased assets, anything that you can get financed from some bank or outside source, then you can use those assets to come up with the money to pay for it. You can do self liquidating payments where you buy the company based on what the payments you know will the company will carry. So you basically do your financing with your seller. Let's say that your agreement is to pay $10,000 a month. But you know that you can generate $10,000 a month instantly just by plugging that company into your existing assets. Then that's an easy deal for you to do because you know it pays for itself right away. So you simply say, I'm going to pay you $10,000 a month, I'm going to pay the first one 30 days deferred. So that deferral allows you to generate money from the company before you have to pay money to buy the company. Does that make sense?

Yeah, you can get your ducks in a row, maybe you know, get whatever marketing system to do it and go got 30 days.

And then we do, we do baseline deals where we say, I tell you what, I want to buy the company, I want to buy into the company. This is usually for buying and not buying 100%. So I want to buy 50% of your company. Right now it's making a million dollars a year profit. The first million dollars that comes in, you continue to keep. And then we split 50, 50 anything over that because we're going to come in and sprinkle our magic pixie dust on it. And, and then, and then when we sprinkle our magic pixie dust on it, it's going to do $2 million. So you'll take the first million and then we'll split the million 5050. On what? On that extra profit. And those are kind of fun deals to do. Then you can do a modified baseline deal, which is, which I highly recommend, where you say so here's the deal though. On that first million that you're keeping, when we've three times, and this is the number I usually use, ranges between three and five, but three is the most common. Say when we've three times the profit, then we're just 50, 50 on everything. So that's, that's another way. Then we have pipe wrench offers where you're providing say 10% or more of another company's business in terms of leads and you go to them and you just say, look, I'm, I'm really building your business right now and I'm, I'm thinking that I love you and I mean it, but I want, if I'm going to build your brand, I want to own part of it. So I tell you what, let's do a deal. If you, if you're willing to give me X percent equity in your company, then I'll continue to provide those leads. But if you're not, then I'm either going to start my own business that does that or I'm going to go to someone else who will give me equity in their company. And that's, that's again a no money deal because you're saying I just, you're going to give me equity in your company. And people are typically happy to do that because they're worried that you'll take your business elsewhere and it'll dramatically adversely impact their business. So they're willing to give you equity in their company. Plus they know that if you now have a vested interest in sending business to them, that you'll probably send two or three times the amount of business that you were sending.

Sure.

So those are, those are just a few no money down ways. So I like eight of them and I think that was maybe five or six that we use on the regular basis to buy companies and for no money out of pocket. And I'll tell you like last year, one of the companies we bought was a $5 million company, had been around for 30 years. Another company we bought was a 20 year old company that had been around that had about $2 million a year in income. So it's possible to do no money down deals with actual real, live, functioning, profitable, existing companies. You don't have to buy losers to do that. And when you're buying media companies, typically the people that are running those blogs and Facebook groups and Insta accounts, they're not making any money or whatever they're making. You can easily do a baseline deal where you say, okay, you're making $25,000 a year selling your T shirts on your Instagram account. That's awesome. You continue to do that, I'll give you 100% of your T shirt revenue ad infinitum forever. And all I want is, is the rights to do everything else. And you continue to do what you're doing. So now you don't have to replace them, which is great. They are motivated because it's. Any money they get is going to be found money and then cut them in for 10, 20, 30% of what the extra that you're able to generate is. So there's a million ways to do those deals.

That seems like a no brainer right there for anyone to just experiment with. Just go look at it.

Absolutely. And you know what? It's a. It's a numbers game, right? It's. It's. You got to just. It's like dating. You just got to ask enough people until you find the right one.

Now, are you ever just, like, given equity in companies because of the platform that you have already and because of your name recognition and like, you know, kind of like advisory shares in a company just because they know now I have some attachment to Digital Marketer and your existing brand?

Yes. Last month we were given 50% of a $7 million a year company and 25% of a $12 million a year company for nothing. Just to have us involved.

And this. That's exactly why we are so big on podcasting and building our brand and our platform and what we call our megaphone.

Right, Right.

Is for stuff like that. I mean, you look at someone like a Tim Ferriss who gets, you know, in the tens of millions of download a month on his podcast. He can go on there and he can mention a product name and it'll sell out on Amazon the next day.

And that's why we put so much focus on brand and that sort of thing. Did you have something?

I was just gonna say, Roland, you win the Wicked Smart award again.

For all that stuff you just said. Because I know we're going to create a little episode companion and that's going to be like, probably one of the hottest downloaded items right there. At least it will be for me. Yeah. So thank you.

So I guess just eat that, Dennis, you and Kurt Malley.

Sure.

I guess my next question would be, what happens after you've acquired a business? Like, how often does the people running the business stay on board versus how often do you install a team and what does that process look like?

You know, it usually is driven by the seller so if the seller is interested in staying on and is going to be an integral part of the continuing value of what we plan to do with the company, then we want them to stay on. Frequently the seller just wants out, they're tired of it or they, you know, they've got some other project. It's probably the most common thing is that they've got squirrel syndrome. So they've seen another, another project that they would rather leave their currently profitable, perfectly fine business to go start something new that's not yet proven is making no money. You know, that's our typical entrepreneurial bent. Right. So usually they don't stay on, but once in a while you'll have somebody who's a really good operator and who is interested in a long term partnership and that, that's I'd say probably 10% of the time. But it's something that we definitely like when we find because as you know, good people are really hard to find.

So are you like shifting people around from other areas and other businesses into these new businesses that you acquire? Are you going and bringing on all completely new staff when you go and acquire something?

I have a team of people that I've built up over the years that I work with that are good strategic people in each of the core areas of operations of companies. So I'll usually bring that team or someone, some part of that team along for whatever is needed. And the idea is that they'll be there temporarily and then we will find someone that will be a full time person there. If that skill set doesn't already exist in the company we're acquiring.

That makes sense. I just remember going back to one of the masterminds we were in, we asked you a question about software development. You said you can either build it or buy it. And that just stuck in my head. And that's exactly what all this whole conversation is about.

Yeah, exactly.

It seems like buying it is more the way to go based on what we're understanding.

Well, here are the strategies to buy with no money down creative financing or deal structure with exit in mind.

Well, at the very least, even if you are going to build a software, what I'm kind of getting from this conversation is you can go and find somebody who has an existing software. It may not necessarily be the software you're hoping to develop, but you buy the software company to get the development team.

Yeah, that's exactly what we did with truconversion. We did not know how to develop software. We wanted to build DM hq buying True Conversion Got us a software development team to, you know, to get us started, and then we were able to go out and find some really brilliant people to add to that. But we weren't starting cold, not knowing what the heck we were doing.

Got it. Okay.

I just think it's. It's. I don't think there's any faster way to get into a business you want to get into that you're not in now or to grow your business than to buy another one that already has what you want.

Yeah.

That'S. I know our struggle, at least. Matt and I, you almost get into bad. Not bad habits, but habits in general. We're good at driving, traffic, ads, audience building that way. But then sometimes just gloss over the fact that, hey, someone did all this hard work already. Let's use that time and now let's go locate them and do exactly what you just laid out here.

Exactly.

Just totally skip everything. Yeah.

Unless you have something else on this topic, I'm going to kind of totally shift gears because I want to talk about your podcast before we run out of time. So with your podcast.

What was the idea behind it? Why did you decide to add a podcast into the mix?

I have wanted to do it forever, and I just want to share. I have so much stuff that I discover in my travels of life that I just think is really cool that I want to share. And I really like helping other business people. And I've wanted to start it for ever since they came out with it, however many years ago it was, and have been really behind the curve on it because of the time that I thought it would take, because I really also hate schedules. I don't want to be. I don't want to have to be any place all the time on Tuesday at this time or whatever. Right. I hate that kind of thing. I'm happy to make an appointment. Although even when I make an appointment two weeks out, I start to dread that I have to go to that appointment. And I don't know why.

But. So I had, for three different times, I had identified all the best equipment and bought it and set it up in a little corner of my house and was all set to go, and then never would go over there and would look at it and go, it doesn't. That sounds horrible. I don't want to have to do that. And then I'd give it away to my kids, give all the equipment away. So when I started doing the Facebook, when I started recording videos on my iPhone of takeaways from my actual business meetings and Posting them on Facebook. John Reese called me and said, you're an idiot. You should do a podcast. And I was like, well, I don't want to do podcasts because I bought the equipment three times and sold it, and I'm never going to be at one place. And he's like, no, no, no. He's like, just do it whenever you want to do it. He said, that's. I'm like, yeah, but, you know, an hour of content. He's like, no, do it five minutes if you want to do it five minutes. And I was like, okay. He just. And so what he said was, he said, you already have the content in your meetings that you're doing for Facebook, but you're showing it to people one time for the minute that they're in your Facebook feed before the cat videos and everything else takes over, and then it's buried, and nobody's going to ever see any of that. At least if you do a podcast, there'll be an archive of all of the stuff that people can find and look at and listen to and benefit from. And I was like, yeah, that. That actually makes sense. So my idea to do the podcast was so that all of the content that I've been creating through all of these meetings when I go and have lunch with people and stuff like that could actually sit in a place where people could access it, look it up, and it wouldn't disappear forever into the bowels of Facebook. Now, in doing that, in actually getting it launched, what I realized was that I kind of wanted to dive a little bit deeper into the stories of the people who I was having lunch with. And it was called. My wife named it Business Lunch because I was like, I don't know what to call it. She's like, well, you basically have business lunches with people, so why don't you call it Business lunch? And then I looked up the domain and it was like, I think 2,000 bucks. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna buy that. So, so anyway, as I started getting into that, I was like, I really want people to see the mindset behind. Not like, we have a tactical podcast called Perpetual Traffic. We have a behind the scenes podcast called Digital Marketer. But what I wanted to do was really, like, if you sit down with people who are really successful, they think a certain way. And if you look at the evolution of their thinking and their career, you can see clues that maybe are common to all of them that you could learn from. And so I wanted to be able to share with people the Actual thought processes throughout the evolution of some of these successful entrepreneurs so that people could see and benefit from the way they think. And it's really interesting reading the reviews that came in. I got a, you know, a whole bunch of reviews to start with and the ones that were negative, which I'm, I think three stars, the worst so far. But the I definitely consider average negative. Yeah, so. So the three star said, well, this person I had interviewed, JJ Virgin, they said, well JJ Virgin just bragged the whole time, blah, blah. And it's like, that's so not the takeaway. The takeaway is what you get from listening to J.J. virgin and Todd Herman and you know, Gary Vaynerchuk and Richard Branson and everybody, you know, Ryan Dice, all the people, Frank Kern, all of them are very humble people and they're very customer focused. They're very concerned about what they're doing for the customer and they don't have the ego of like JJ and Todd Herman and a couple other folks were like the very first group that they ever got in front front of either heckled them or some of the people walked out in the middle of them talking or they only had four people to talk to. Like the whole Todd Herman was talking about helping a sports team and everybody walked out except four people. But he stayed there and he helped those four people. And that ultimately led him to I think a $700,000 book advanced for a first time author, right?

That service ethic and that being there to serve the customer and the stick to itiveness and the put your ego in a box and the continue to challenge yourself like J.J. talked about. Well, when I first, I first I wanted to get on the New York Times, I wanted to write a book. Then I wanted to write a book and get on the New York Times bestseller list. Then when I got on the New York Times bestseller list, I wanted to get on as the number one and then I wanted to get multiple number ones. It's like over and over setting those really high goals and higher than what you've ever done before. You see in all these people that I interact with and I wanted that, that to be shared out there so people could get these mindset, strategic and tactical things that, that wherever you are in your entrepreneurial journey, if you're just starting out, you get to hear how they started out. So you can say, oh, okay, I see from these seven people I can do these things and I can make it. Even though I'm don't. Even though I have no list and nobody knows me and I have no money or anything. I can do that or I'm a super successful multi 10 times decim, you know, millionaire, best selling author, etc. But I can do this to go even further. So my goal was to.

Try to have something across that full entrepreneurial journey that anybody could look and take any part of that and draw some value from it.

I love that. And this actually you hit on something about goal setting. I wrote this down earlier in this conversation. I want to ask you about how you do yours, but also some commonalities. But before that, really quick. I just love that you are because you are the example of what you're putting out there to the world in the podcast. You know, the fact that you give away your best stuff everywhere. So yeah, that's hats off to you for that. But going back to have you found any good commonalities of the podcast you've already done of how they set goals? Kind of in the beginning of the year here.

Of how they set goals. And I would say that the goal setting.

Is a active, integral part of their life. So they are writing down, they're all writing down goals that challenge themselves to new levels of success and they're pushing themselves to achieve those goals. No matter how successful they are, they're not resting on their laurels. They're not being self satisfied. They're saying, I want to get to the next place. And the reason they want to get to the next place isn't so they can make more money. It isn't so they can be more famous. It's so that they can help more people, like consistently more and more and more. I am seeing also that with great levels of success come very, very deep levels of service and planning and intentionality and thoughtfulness. There's a program on Netflix right now called seven Days out that is awesome because it studies seven days out of the Kentucky Derby, seven days out of the opening of one of my favorite restaurants, which just in 2017 got best restaurant in the world 11 Madison park in New York City. And there's a Chanel show and other things. And so they start Seven Days out and all of these people who are just wildly successful, who I see on that show, who I interview, who, you know, who we come across in our travels, they think so deeply about everything. Like in that show, they wanted to be the best restaurant in the world. So they took the time to tailor suits for the waiters and servers and to sit on every seat in the restaurant and say, this seat is too pointy on the Material is too rough on the back. We need to soften this material. When I put my feet down, one of my feet sits on a leg of the table. So we're going to have to turn all the table legs to do that. When you look at some of the best architecture in the world, I was in Russia a few months ago, and there's this church of the Spilled Blood where one of the czar's fathers was assassinated. And so the czar decided to build this monument. And the care that went into it was so deep that the dome that is over the.

Over the exact spot where the father was killed is 93 meters high because he was killed in 1893. And the one in the center is 61 meters high because he was 61 when he died. Like, that kind of depth of thought behind every really great business, every really great piece of architecture, every really great accomplishment, it is so much greater than the depth of thought that the average person puts into their business. They're building their life, right? And so seeing that again and again in all of those environments is really a big takeaway for me from the last year. And, sorry, I digressed a little bit. But, like, in terms of goal setting, then think about, how can you be the best in the world? How can you go beyond the surface that you've been scratching, to go 10 times deeper to provide a better experience, to provide a better product, a better service, a better outcome for your customer?

I love that. And Seven Days out, by the way, is an amazing documentary or short whatever. Yeah, I made a note of it.

I've never heard of it until just now.

Kentucky Derby. When I watched that the other night, I was like, whoa, my God.

It's pretty great.

It's amazing.

It's also scary. If you watched a lot of them. It's. You're never going to finish this in seven, God knows.

Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. I'll watch more of them. How about your own goal setting? Is it very similar? And maybe it's not a specific, you know, like planning the year, but maybe planning a specific business, because I know you're involved in so many of them.

I do categories, so I do physical, relationship, business, professional, which I consider different from business because I think business businesses, the specific businesses, I have goals for them in terms of customer service, finance, KPIs, and things like that. But then professionally, I want to develop myself professionally as a business person, but I also want to develop myself personally as a business, as a human being. So I set goals across all those finances. Obviously, across all those different categories. And then I look at the end of the year and I say, at the end of the year, 12 months from now, as I'm setting my goals for the next year, where do I want to have come in all of these areas. And I'll write that down. And that's my end result goal. And they're very specific in all of those areas. And then I will reverse engineer what do I have to do at each month to have gotten myself to that goal. Like, I. Six months in, I better be at point X if I want to get to point X times two. Right. So that reverse engineering process, I think, is a critical process to chunk the goals down into small chunks, to say, where do you need to be? And then have those leading indicators of am I on track? And if I'm not, then I better do something pretty significant to get myself on track.

Sure, yeah. Maybe you have to go acquire a new Instagram page or something to boost up your traffic or whatever.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I like to set big, hard to get goals, too. I like to be very challenged.

Yeah, Both. I'm assuming both. Financially, maybe it's physically all. Everything.

Yeah. Even stupid stuff. Like, one of my goals for 2018, which I just barely squeaked in, was I wanted to speak at an Internet marketing party because I find, like, I don't go out. I'm not an extrovert. Like, I like people, but I am not like a super. Go to the bar and I, you know, go around and I know everybody and talk to everybody and all that kind of stuff. If I'm in a bar and I don't know anybody, I'm in the corner having my drink, waiting to get the heck out of there. And so the Internet marketing party is the opposite of anything I would ever like, like to put myself in the middle of. It's great for people that like it. It's a really cool thing. It's just. It's not my thing, so it's uncomfortable for me. So one of my goals was that I wanted to speak at the Internet marketing party because it would be incredibly uncomfortable for me and that would be a good experience. So, like, I have goals like that too, and I did it and it actually worked out really well. And it was. People paid attention, which was shocking because I'd watched a lot of videos of, you know, I know when I saw Frank Kern speak a few years ago in San Diego, and I was originally scheduled to speak, but he ended up speaking and, like, he was having drinks at the bar. And then he went over in this corner and got on the microphone and everybody's like talking, and he was like, just surrounded by people. And I was like, that seems super, horribly uncomfortable.

We were at that. Yeah, we were there. We saw that. And I remember it being a little awkward looking.

Right.

The ones in San Diego, I feel like the speakers aren't quite as organized, but when they do it in Austin, because we went to. We've been to a couple in Austin when they do the IM parties in Austin, I feel like the people pay attention to the speakers a little more out in Austin, for whatever reason.

Who knows?

Yeah, the people were very kind. I got their attention for the whole time I did it, though. What I decided as I was going in is I was like, how can I actually connect with this crowd in a way that will be fun and good for them and everything? And so I did. I did business growth in five toasts. So I was like, at the end of each of my five points, I made it very short. I think it was like 18 minutes long instead of 30 or 45, because that's a long time to have to pay attention to somebody in a bar. And then at the end of each, say, three minute segment, when I made a point, I said, so here's to this, or whatever, and raised my drink with everybody else. And we all took a drink. So it was kind of fun. And I actually had a good time, even though it wasn't something I would normally do.

You actually had a good time.

You just have to be personally growing by putting yourself outside of the places that you would be very comfortable and get yourself uncomfortable in a good, healthy, growing kind of way.

Yeah. And I know you're on stage. I think it was the side stage, but at tnc, well, you've been on the big stage, obviously.

Any more speaking appearances coming soon?

I'm speaking at an entrepreneur's organization group in Fort Worth and then another one in Macau. I've got one in Israel. I've got one in Fiji. And then I've got tnc, obviously, in San Diego, in New York. And our war room is in Punta Mita, Mexico, at the end of this month. So those are all quite a bit. I enjoy speaking and I think it's a great way to connect with a whole lot of people. And I'm really focused on going towards goals and partnerships and all the stuff that we talked about. I'm really focused on getting connected with the 12,500 roughly people in entrepreneurs organization who are my exact customer demographic and the 25,000 people who are in YPO.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Yeah. Those are two really big goals for me this year.

Yeah, I was going to say, I was actually going to ask you what's like one challenging 2019 goal that you feel like you're going to have to stretch for.

One of our companies that we've been trying to get to 100 million. I want to cross 100 million with that this year.

Nice. Cool. Matt, got anything?

We covered everything that we wrote down on our whiteboard. We covered a ton of ground. This has just been amazing.

You know, I'm curious, Roland. I know you play some music. I think the last time we did a. You were in Vegas. Do you play piano? Is that what it is?

I do, yeah. I played out in clubs from age 15 to 42. I played keyboards and bass in everything from I was the token white guy in a 17 piece funk band to cocktail piano to country music with chicken wire at military bases. It was super fun.

Oh my God. Are there any video, Is there video evidence of this somewhere?

There's no video. I have recordings of some of the songs and stuff we did and somebody just posted a picture of a band I played in when I. I was 16 on Facebook, which is pretty funny. So that was. Yeah, that's interesting.

That's funny. No, we all share that love of music. Joe and I were actually both in bands in high school and college. And there's definitely videos and pictures of us floating around with long hippie hair down to our shoulders and awkward stages. Very, very funny looking pictures.

I had the hair to the mid back as well. It was pretty funny.

I love it. Well, I think anything. Yeah, I mean we've kind of like there's so much to just kind of marinate on here that.

Well, I feel like if we try to squeeze any more concepts into this episode that people's brains will literally explode.

So for the sake of everyone else listening and their health, I think maybe this is a good time to maybe say until round three.

Cool. Sounds good, man.

Yeah, Roland. So where should folks check out your podcast and anything else you have on the. On the deck.

Oh, thank you. The so podcast is business lunch on itunes or Spotify or your platform of choice, the. I think Pandora coming up too. The website for me is Roland Frazier. R O L A N D f r a s I-e r.com and then I'm on all the Facebooks and Instagrams and all that under Roland Frazier and Obviously traffic and conversionsummits.com or digitalmarketer.com are two of the primary companies I'm focused on right now, too.

Awesome. And I know you have that shiny new Roland Frazier.com website. It's looking nice.

Yeah. They did such a good job on that. I was so pleased with their work, they crushed it.

Awesome. Any new book or anything? I know we asked you this last time, but anything that you referenced that in the last six months or so, that really caught your eye.

That is one of my big goals for this year, by the way. I hired Tucker Max's scribe company to help me write my book. So I'm pretty excited about that. I'm in the middle of that right now, so that should be done probably by the third quarter, I guess.

Cool.

But books that I've read, I just recently read the autobiographies of John D. Rockefeller and Conrad Hilton and Henry Ford.

Is one of them called Titan. Is Rockefeller's book Titan?

No, that is a great book about Rockefeller.

Okay.

This one is automatic. Yeah. I want to get it in their actual own words. And it was really interesting reading. I did them all in about a week, and all three of them had like, those are pretty amazing guys. One guy really built the biggest at the time, hotel chain. One is, I think, still, if you normalize the dollars, the most wealthy person ever in the history of the planet.

And one of them invented something that touches our lives every single day. And he wasn't the first, but he was arguably the most successful the first. And there's so many commonalities between those three things. So I really highly. I got a tremendous amount, and I would highly recommend that you read all three of those books and take notes about the things that they had in common. And it's very insightful. I think there's a lot of really cool takeaways that are common to all three of those people. So I thought that was really good. I'm in the middle of reading Branson's book. I think it's the Virgin Way. He's got like four or five of them.

Yeah, he does.

But I'm gonna read them all before I interview him because I really like to know about people before I talk to him.

Yeah. Losing My Virginity is one of my favorite. Actually probably my favorite autobiography I've ever read. I just love that book.

That was a great one.

It reads. I mean, it reads like a fiction book. Like his life story is just insane.

It is. It really is. And he's, you know, he's exactly on that. Big challenges while he became bigger. I think he really shines extra bright because of the.

Accomplishments outside of business, like the balloon accomplishments and the, you know, the going across the Atlantic and all of those things. Those records that he was able to set and putting his life at risk to do all those things. Really interesting characters. I just. Any autobiography of any successful business person, to me, you just take so much from that. And I like the autobiography way better than the much more well written, well thought out non autobiographies. Because if you're trying to get into their head, into the way that they actually think, I just don't think there's any better ways in the auto.

Yeah, I love it. And the fact that you have maybe this ongoing list of commonalities between all these folks. Yes, that is really powerful too.

Yeah, that should be a book someday. I should do that. You should.

I know. I was just thinking that, like, I would love to read those notes. All right, Roland. Well, this has been amazing and yeah, of course we'll be. We'll be in touch and do this all over again.

Thanks, guys. I appreciate it.

Thank you very much. Talk soon.

All right.

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