Russ Henneberry - How To Create A Newsletter Business Using Curated Content

The important thing is to have a flow, because it's not that any one flow, I think, would work better than others, but when you're writing, if you're gonna write a daily email newsletter or a weekly email newsletter.

This gets into this whole concept of rituals, Right. Where people get used to the way something works. And even though I'm in your email inbox and there's 50 other emails in there that you need to open up, my email feels like a right. It looks and feels and flows the same each day. It's just the content changes.

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and float Shark with your boy. My boy, Matt Wolf. Joe. Hey, welcome back.

I've been here the whole time, Matt.

That's debatable. Physically, maybe. Physically, mentally, mentally.

Always. Always here, man. I feel like my mind has been blown around email marketing.

This was a very sort of tactical episode. I think we were talking about this before we hit record to record this intro. But this is one of those episodes that you can listen to it and build a complete business off of what you hear in this episode. Like you can literally. This episode is one of those blueprint episodes where once you grab the notes and you listen through this episode, you have a business model that you could implement if you wanted to. Right. And I think I love episodes like this where it's just like, here's a play by play, step by step. These are all the elements that go into this business. You can model this in your niche if you want.

That's it. I mean, that's so. Yeah, I mean, anything. Email marketing basically is what this episode's gonna be all about. So it's. Russ Henneberry is who we have on the show today, and he's the founder of the clique. And that's. The clique is spelled C L I K K. So.

It'S really interesting because it's a daily email that goes out to digital business owners and it's modeled after some other publications that are out there. And he'll get into that whole model. So no need to explain that here because he does it much better than we would ever do that. But it's just really cool because he has a huge history of just content marketing in general email and has worked for some really large companies doing a lot of interesting things. And so it's really interesting to hear what this model is that he's focused on now. And he basically breaks it open completely for everyone to check out and understand. And potentially you can apply that into your own niche too.

Yeah, so basically what the click is, and that's T-H-E-C-L-I K K dot com.

It's a daily newsletter to digital marketers, like Joe just said, but he's monetizing it through sponsorships and through affiliate marketing. And it's essentially curated content for the most part. Most of the content that's going into this newsletter is not content that's written by him. It's content that he found around the web that he found would be relevant to his subscribers and put it in front of him. So he's curating content in an email and then putting, you know, sponsorship slots inside of that email. And I mean, it's a pretty sexy business model and we really go into a lot of different topics around it. We talk about how to get better open rates on your emails. We talk about how to get better deliverability on your emails so they actually make it to the inbox. We talk about how to find the content to curate. We talk about the monetization models and how it's making money and how to charge CPMs for your advertisers. And the list goes on and on and on. You pretty much get a full breakdown of everything that goes into this business model.

Yeah, there's even viral sharing, like how to get referrals to be legion, how he pays for traffic. I mean, it's a lot of stuff. So basically, yeah, like you said, Matt, very tactical. It's basically a business in a box. For someone who wants to do a similar business or even just improve their email marketing in general, this is going to give it to you. So get the notes because you are going to need these. Any tactical episode, really any episode, but tacticals especially. You got you covered on that one. So, hustleandfluechart.com comp hustleandflowchart.com comp and that gets you the notes for free if you're quick in within two weeks of this episode going live.

Or you can text the number 38470 and send the word computer in a text message and we'll get you the notes there too. So that's 38470, comp.

And then we're going to sponsor a.

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Let's go talk about some newsletter stuff because I want to go create a newsletter now.

Russ, how you doing, man?

Doing great. Thanks for having me on.

Of course. Yeah. No, you came highly recommended and we followed your work for. Well, what digital marketer days back in the day, but now on the click can't get away from you because it's daily.

Right.

But also it's addicting because it's actually really good stuff and really in depth. I don't know how you curate that stuff and also create a lot of it as well.

I'm sure we'll get into that.

We can talk about that if you want.

We definitely will.

Yeah. We've heard your name all the way way back from when you were doing digital marketer stuff. We've actually been to every single traffic and conversion summit since the beginning, ever since it was, you know, really idea incubator back before digital marketer. And so we've, we've been to all of them all the way up until they couldn't. They weren't allowed to do them anymore. Well, which is the current world. We're in, but you know, it'll be coming back around in December. But let's, let's start with your backstory a little bit. How did you get into the whole digital marketing world? I know you, you were mentioning before this that you worked with Neil Patel and we know that you worked at Digital Marketer. What, what's the quick storyline there?

So quick storyline is I started a business. I used to be a teacher when I came out of college and I started a business when I left teaching and it was a fundraising business for schools because that's what I knew with schools. I could never get that business going. But I built a website. This was back in like 2004. So I had built my first website and I started to figure out like, why are my competitors like ranking above me or below me or you know, how do you use pay per click? Because it was like in it kind of around and I, and I started to get into the digital marketing side of the business. And when I folded up that business, I went to work for a company and did some digital marketing for them and some direct mail marketing for them because I was just like really fascinated by the whole using both digital and print and direct mail and stuff for a direct response and really dove into direct response. And then I went to work for a company called Network Solutions, which fun fact was the first company to ever be able to register domain names in the United States. And we were huge when I got there and by the time I left the company was like basically on its knees because, you know, they had opened up competition and people like GoDaddy came in and started doing 99 cent domains as a front end offer to sell hosting.

And isn't Network Solutions still around? I feel like I've.

Yeah, they got bought. They got bought. So yeah, they're still around and you can still register a domain name there for $30 a year. So you know, because, you know, the model was just, it broke when they opened the competition. When I left there, I picked up Neil Patel as a customer, as a freelancer and launched a blog for his Crazy Egg software company. We called it the Daily Egg. It still publishes, I think every day. So I got that blog off the ground for him and I don't know, took it to like 150k traffic a month. And then I got a crazy idea and decided, hey, you know what I should do is I should go work in a corporation. So I went to work. Hey, yeah, why wouldn't I do that? So I went and helped launch Salesforce.com's blog.

On their marketing team got the Salesforce blog up and going. But that life was not right for me. That was like back to back to back to back to back meetings.

Was that in a corporate environment too, or were you remote?

I was actually remote, so that was good. But I was traveling a lot. I was going to San Francisco once a month for a week or so anyway, so I left there and I went back to Neil. I said, hey man, I'm back freelancing and doing marketing services. And so he connected me to Ryan Deiss.

Because somebody had taken over the the Daily Egg over there, it's crazy Egg site. So I went to work for Ryan for five years and.

Ran Digital Marketers content marketing and.

Built a lot of information products, did a lot of teaching myself, which was natural for me because, you know, I love to teach. It's, you know, if I could have made more money as a, as a high school teacher, I would have stayed in it.

Sure.

But somehow I ended up back as a teacher. So, yeah, I was at Digital Marketer for five years. I was very active in helping to put together Traffic conversion summit from 2015 to 2018, I guess. I don't know.

Wow, those are the big years. It started really popping off of those years.

Right. So like that. Yeah, it really did grow really, really fast. And you know, they were headed to 10,000 this year and they will be in December, so. And then I left there. No hard feelings between us. Like I actually still do a lot of work with them. I do some teaching on their faculty essentially, and we're all good friends. I see them a lot. And I'll be speaking at TNC in December, but started two companies. One is called Modern Publisher, which is an information product business. And then the other one is the Click, which you mentioned earlier, which is a daily email newsletter. We're an email first publisher. We publish content to about 20,000 digital marketers right now and growing in. We started that in December. And.

Yeah, we sell ads and other fun things in there if you want to get into that.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's a daily email newsletter for digital marketers.

Yeah. Maybe we start with the Click because I think you describe it well, Matt and I both, and I'm sure you do too. We're all subscribed to the Morning Brew and it's another daily email that's kind of just like the world news, but also just interesting things you should know, but written in a creative, fun way. So it's actually fun as well.

Right.

And yeah, I love that you. I mean, was the model pretty much derived from that? Obviously you're already doing the daily stuff from Crazy Daily. Forgot exactly what the name was, but it sounds like you've kind of been in it for a while.

Yeah, content production has been part of my job.

For a long time, so there's a lot of things to talk about there as well. But, yeah, I mean, the OGs in this space, I guess, would be the skimming. So the Skim is aimed at millennial females. They have about seven and a half million subscribers, and they are a legit network. Now, they are much bigger than their newsletter ever was, but they started as a daily email newsletter, monetizing through ads.

And then you saw Morning Brew sort of crop up and the Hustle and. Yeah, I've. Absolutely. And this is something I tell everybody, like, I'm a thief, right? Like, I watch what other smart people are doing and I apply it. So, yeah, the click is an amalgamation of things I liked from not just those three letters, but a whole host of letters that. Newsletters that I've watched for a while now.

Yeah, very cool. So with the newsletter, where the content that you're putting out daily, where. Where are you coming up with the content and, you know, how are you making sure you're getting, like, the most timely content in there?

Well, so I. I have a. Essentially a set of tools that. That, you know, basically a dashboard. It's right in front of me right now, actually, what I'm looking at with my two big Thunderbolt displays, which is a set of tools that I use. The. One of the best ones that I use and I get a lot of stuff out of is BuzzSumo, and I use their paid version, and it allows me to quickly scan what's hot.

Based on keywords and some queries and things that I set up inside there. And it just, you know, it builds me a dashboard right there where I can see, okay, what's being shared, what's trending right now. But then on top of that, you know, I visit a lot of sites. I mean, the service that I'm providing with the click, and I think there's a lot of money to be made here right now is curation.

And.

What we do for our readership is we sift through the 30 blog posts that you shouldn't waste your time reading, and.

We listen through these podcasts and we read the books and we do all that stuff so that you don't have to. You can only get the good stuff. And so it's a Daily Digest. I mean, a lot of people email us every day and say, I've unsubscribed from everything except this. I've just, you know, whatever. I read this every morning. You give me what I need and that's all I need. That's kind of the highest compliment that we can get is that we're on point with the curation aspect.

Yeah. You're basically selling time savings, more or less and getting the best of the best. Right to the point. And now more than ever, we're all.

I would like to say we have more time on our hands, but we probably don't. Business owners were doubling down.

We don't.

Yeah, we don't.

Yeah. I mean, we're selling time savings. And something else about that is actually Traffic and Conversion Summit. Either last year or the year before, there was a speaker there and his name is escaping me right now. But he made a very, very good point, which is, you know, education doesn't go viral. You know, he's like, when's the last time you saw like a super how to post go viral? He's like, people don't share it, they don't spread it, they don't. And so what we look to do is be entertaining as well, which is hard to do. Right. And so I've had to go out there and hire some pretty sharp writers that can bring that fun aspect to it because that's what the morning brew is as well. I mean, morning brew is the Wall Street Journal, but the Wall Street Journal is boring.

Right.

The morning brew is not digiday. I love them. I read them all the time, but it's boring. The click is more fun. I have no rules in there. I tell my writers, have fun.

Throw pop culture references in there.

Drop a swear word here and there if it fits. It's just, it's just a lot more fun to read. It's very punchy and the brevity is there. And so that gets us back to that time savings where I know that that's what I'm selling them. And so if they want more information about stuff, I just link out and I just push. And that's kind of a win win for everybody because I send a lot of traffic to people. Occasionally somebody will go, whoa, where'd this traffic come from? And then they'll track me down and say, hey, you know, and ask me about advertising. So it all sort of works really well.

I'm sure you have some pretty sneaky. You could at least the UTM codes on there and you're like, hey, I do the clicks, sent you this traffic.

I totally do the UTM parameters on there. Really? If somebody knows what they're doing with their Google Analytics, they will be able to see where this traffic came from. Smart. I love that you thought of that too. I'm in the right place amongst, amongst marketers, of course.

Yeah. I got to give credit to Kurt Molly for that one specifically. I'm sure you know Kurt.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Kurt will run ads. Kurt's been on the podcast and he'll run ads to our podcast and I'll be in Google Analytics and the UTM will literally say, Kurt is paying for this.

Brilliant.

And I actually took a screenshot of it, sent it to Kurt, and Kurt made a big old Facebook post about how you should be using UTM codes because people are paying attention.

That's true.

I'm curious, have you found with the emails, is there a specific flow that works really well? Because in the digital marketing world, with email marketing, the common wisdom is you kind of want to have one call to action. When you start to get too many calls to action in there, people, you know, seem to click less. So I'm curious, have. Have you seen that to be true and have you found any sort of flow that drives the clicks?

Well, that's a great question. I mean, you know, absolutely. I mean, every doctor marketer in the world knows one call to action in your email, right? Well, something like the click has, you know, there's not uncommon for me to have 20 plus 30 plus links in there, where it, where it comes out in the wash kind of is. The open rates on this stuff are so high and I'm training them to click right? So I mean, it's literally the name of the thing. But the click through rate is really, really high. The numbers are sort of astronomical compared to maybe looking at a list that is doing a lot of promos, right? Or maybe all promos. So if you're just pounding promos, you're probably seeing maybe 5% open rates these days.

And in your click through rate is a result. It's not your rates, not a result, but the number of clicks you're getting is a result of your open rate. So that open rate for us is absolutely 100% critical. You know, I always say every business has a couple of metrics that really, really need to be watched daily. And for us, open rate, is that, is that right? So it comes out, you know, that my advertisers are happy with the number of clicks they're Getting simply because we're getting enough opens. In terms of flow, I would say the important thing is to have a flow, because it's not that any one flow, I think, would work better than. Than others, but when you're writing, if you're going to write a daily email newsletter or a weekly email newsletter.

You know, this gets into this whole concept of rituals, Right. Where people get used to the way something works. And even though I'm in your email inbox and there's 50 other emails in there that you need to open up, my email feels like a place. Right. It looks and feels and flows the same each day. It's just the content changes in and out. So there are a million different ways to format an email newsletter, whether it's designed to just kind of keep your list warm or whether it's designed to do what ours is, which is to sell ads and other things. And it's actually the product doesn't matter. You still should have, you know, some kind of standard flow. It doesn't mean you can't change it, but. And you should change it. You should slowly morph it. Right. So we're always testing new, new things. But the best way to think about it is to think about what I call segments and what everybody calls segments.

Think about. For example, there's a show I always get back into sports analogies, which. Rest in peace, the sports.

What are those?

Please bring them back. But espn, for example, is fantastic at talking about the same stuff over and over and over again. But they just put it in a different, you know, they put a different shirt on it.

Yeah.

So Pardon the Interruption is a show on the. On ESPN that has a format and it's a style and there are segments inside of it.

And then there's a. There are other shows, like SportsCenter also has segments inside of it that are familiar. And you're like, oh, okay, yeah. You know, so like it might be a segment like buy or sell. Right. So they'll make a statement. You know, Tom Brady going to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers is the biggest thing to happen since. Blah, blah, blah. Buy or sell. It's like the same. It's covering the same thing they covered on SportsCenter half hour earlier, Right?

Yeah.

But they're doing it with a different shirt on it, which is the buy or sell. And they have a different person's perspective. And so what I look for are segments. So if you look at the click and the way it flows, there are all kinds of segments in there. It's actually over there on my whiteboard. But it's segment 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, right. There's nine segments in every issue, the Click. And there are different types of content that fit into each one of those. So an example in the Click is something that I call Happy Birthday. So yesterday was. Was the anniversary is actually today the anniversary of the first YouTube video to ever be uploaded to YouTube. Right. Well, I dropped that into my shirt called Happy Birthday. And then I say, you know, Happy birthday to YouTube is the first time you go look at the first video that's kind of interesting and entertaining. But then I also say, you know, here's what. Here's what YouTube's been up to since then, and add some education and some. Some instruction maybe in there as well. And then, boom, that segment's done.

Right.

But I could have just as easily added that into a different type of segment, but I just would have had to approach it a little bit differently. So I think about blogs this way, I think about my newsletters that way. When I talk to people about podcasting and things like that, I'm like, have segments like the Tool Time segment and the blah, blah, blah segment, and then this segment and then that segment, which again, gets back to the idea of rituals where people are like, aha, here's that, and here's that, and here's that.

Now I like that. And then you're in your. You're training them to expect these segments or at least a flow. So, yeah, and I would assume that, yeah, click through rates are going to go up higher. Sponsorships, and they get to where they.

Open up and they say, I don't like that segment. I never liked that segment. I'm going to skip it. You know, I'm going to scroll right past it and go on to the next one. And that's the nice thing about switching it up. You know, I have nine different segments in there. I switch it up a lot. And so if you're bored with what you're looking at, just scroll and you'll be on to something else.

Yeah, I mean, there's something for everyone there.

Yeah.

So I'm curious, when it comes to the email subject lines, you know, if your main KPI is open rates or one of your main KPIs is open rates, what sort of methodology do you use for writing the actual subject lines? Are you using tools, split testing emails? What sort of things are you doing there?

Yeah, so I think about subject lines. There's basically two buckets, right? And this is something that you Know Ryan Dice taught me, right? So it's, there are two buckets that, that we look at and sometimes a subject line will have both. But we talk about blind and direct. So blind subject line would be totally curiosity based. It has like, it's just like the subject line is something like you're not alone, right? That's subject line, you're not alone. And it's like, huh, right? Or I messed up, sorry, right? Something like that. And it's like, okay, I gotta click on that to get in there, right? That's a blind subject line. And then a direct subject line is literally just says what the thing is. So it might say Google Analytics 101, right? So that's very clear. Like what's gonna be in that issue of the click if you open up. But you of course, you know, having a little blend of both.

Can be nice. Like Google Analytics 101 parentheses I messed up, right? So you know, that adds blind and direct. So I mix it up, I mix it up because if I go direct, direct, direct, direct, direct, and I keep going direct, eventually my open rate starts to suffer. If I go too blind, especially too often, I'm gonna see, you know, people start to feel tricked. So the nice thing about a blind subject line is you're gonna increase your open rates. Your open rates are gonna go up if you, if you use a very good curiosity based subject line. But the quality of those opens is gonna go down. So your click through rate probably go down and if your clicks and your clicks will, will probably be a little lower quality as well. Your direct subject line is gonna, gonna qualify people in the subject line. So you're gonna get less opens but higher quality click.

So yeah, I mean we mix it up right now we're seeing north of 30% open rate. As long as I keep deliverability, which is another thing I can talk about.

Yeah, curious about that one.

At some point, deliverability is a, for email. And it's funny because I have a lady that works on nothing but my deliverability and she was telling me a lot of people reaching out, trying to poach her from me right now because, because you know, email is one of the, one of your tools that you can do in the world of the coronavirus. So people are becoming very interested in deliverability.

Yeah, well, maybe we talk about just slightly on that, especially with the frequency that you're, you're putting out there. But yeah, what, what have you noticed with deliverability? Because I mean you've done all sorts of different emails of like the Non daily and also, you know, very direct to something. Email.

Yeah.

I mean the way I think about deliverability has to go all the way back to the way that I acquire subscribers in the first place. So I use a lot of Facebook and Instagram ads to drive subscribers. And it starts there, right? It starts with what's the ad, what's the targeting and that, that kind of stuff. Because if I'm driving a ton of low quality subscribers and they are never opening and that's going to negatively affect my deliverability. So the biggest thing I use ActiveCampaign. So ActiveCampaign has these awesome things that are called recipes. And inside of there is this recipe that tags people that haven't opened in a certain amount of time. Mine's set at 30 days and then if they haven't opened in 60 days, they get a second tag and it says that first tag. When I they're going to get an autoresponder that's going to try to re engage them and get them to open up. If they go to 60 days, I just take them off the list. Which sounds crazy, but you know, because you know I'm selling ads and they want to know how many subscribers I have. But the truth is.

I'm in much better shape by removing that dead weight off of the list. Because you know, the.

Rate at which people are opening doesn't matter the number. It's the rate at which people are opening, clicking, engaging, hitting the spam button, all those things. That's what people don't understand usually about this is you could have a list of a thousand, you could have a list of 100,000.

What these spam traps and blacklists and everything else are looking at is the rate at which things are happening. And so by removing dead weight from your list and spending energy and time and money and everything else to write that autoresponder series to re engage them is worth it. Because if I'm at $3 cost per subscriber, which is another really important metric for me, you got to think about it this way. At 3 bucks cost per subscriber.

If I have a 20% open rate versus a 30% open rate, for me, my brain thinks that $3 cost subscriber is going up when my email deliverability goes down. My cost per subscriber is going down when my email deliverability goes up. If I can squeeze another percentage point out of my deliverability, those leads are worth more because they're not even getting the thing right. It's dropping into the promotions tab or it's dropping in, you know, sometimes even into junk or spam or whatever. So the biggest thing is to cut that weight, that dead weight. Create a re engagement series with some curiosity type. Very somewhat aggressive, actually. Email subject line.

Like an urgent kind of message.

Yeah, hey, what's going on with you? You know, something like that. And they'll open that up and it's like, hey, I'm gonna have to take you off this list if you don't start reading. Or, you know what I do is I remind them why they joined it in the first place, right? Because at one time they were interested in this. In this. That's why they signed up. So I remind them of that. I send them some of them some of our best stuff and try to get them to reengage. If they don't, I take them off.

Do they actually have to click or is it just the open is enough for them to.

So for me, an open is enough.

Okay.

And the reason for that is that I excel on a cost per view basis. So my advertisers. My advertisers only get charged when people open. So what I'm looking for is opens. Depending on what your business circumstances are, you could set it up so that they have to click to actually engage.

And that goes back to that KPI, the metric that really matters for you. Yours is the open rate.

That's right.

One of them, at least. Yeah.

So when it comes to actually acquiring the leads that come on the list you mentioned you use a lot of Facebook and Instagram ads. You know, what sort of things are you doing on the advertising side to make sure that you are grabbing the highest quality leads, the right ones that aren't going to just ignore your emails once they jump on the list.

Well, one of my favorite things to do and work on actually as a marketer is something called a lead magnet, which is the short definition of that is a small chunk of value like a cheat sheet or a checklist or an ebook, which I don't love ebooks as an offer for a lead magnet. But some piece of value that you're exchanging for someone's contact information, at least their email, usually their email. So what I am not doing is that, all right, I'm not using lead magnets. And the reason is because I don't want. I want these people to know that they are subscribing to a daily email newsletter. Now, eventually I'm going to have to probably come off of that stance and start using a lead magnet. But for now, my cost Per subscriber is low enough when I literally say to them, hey, we are a daily email newsletter and here's what we're about. And I literally just qualify them right there inside of the ad. So if you sign up for this thing, you're doing it knowing that this is what you're signing up for. And that's helping me a lot with my open rates. There's been a lot of people that have come to me with different ideas as to how to grow this email list that, you know, eventually I'll have to go after. But for now what I'm saying is, you know, various different ways of saying and different sort of hooks that I'm using to say that, hey, we're a, we're a daily email newsletter and if you want to sign up for this, this is how you do it. I'm also using Facebook's lead ads. About half my campaigns are running using what's called lead ads where they can opt in literally on Facebook or Instagram, like right in the app without going anywhere.

And their emails pre populated in there and everything.

Yeah, their best email too, likely.

That's the thing that I love about them is that they are a little more expensive. My cost per subscriber is higher. But guess what? I'm not getting, I'm not getting a lot of junky emails like go jump in a lake. Go jump in a lake@gojumpanalake.com, you know what I mean? Which I don't know why people would ever put that in there anyways. Because I'm not trying to give them a lead magnet or any content. I'm just saying like, do you want the CMAL newsletter? But I still on the other types of ads where they go to my squeeze page, I still get a lot of junky, inactive. And a lot of them are just, you know, people mistype their stuff in there, you know, they accidentally write gmail instead of gmail.com and then you know, they bounce. So they're a little more expensive. But I get a really great, I get better deliverability off of those leads.

Yeah, yeah. So basically at the end of the day, you want people to be opting in because they see the value of the newsletter, not because they're seeing the value of a lead magnet.

That's right.

Oh, by the way, you're also getting a newsletter.

Yeah, exactly. I want them to opt into the newsletter right now, you know, and eventually I think I'll have to come off of that where I've, where I've.

Oddly Enough. Where I've used lead magnets with this business is not in acquiring subscribers, but in getting my subscribers to invite other.

People to ask about the viral kind of sharing aspect. Because, right.

So I call this a share magnet, right? So what I say to them is, hey, I got this cool premium resource. It might be like, you know, for our people, it'll be like, here's 20 awesome swipe ads, you know, for you to swipe from, you know, Google pay per click or banner ads or whatever. I've used a customer avatar worksheet. But you know, the same sort of stuff that I would use as a lead magnet, I use as a share magnet. And I use a tool to give them a special link and it populates right there inside of activecampaign, which is really, really technically very easy to do. And I say, hey, here's your link. Go share it with three people and it will unlock.

Your swipe file or your template or this extra little training that I shot for you. And that works really, really well. I can grow the lists 5% over a day or two of running a good share magnet campaign.

And I've also run this as a sweepstakes. You know, I'll use sweepstakes, you know, share share this many times and that every time you share, you get an entry into a sweepstakes.

So yeah, I mean, what, what Another, another really key sort of leverage point for me from an email standpoint is how do I, how do I take one subscriber and turn them into 1.2 subscribers or 1.3 or 1.42. Right. This really, really changes the economics of my business when I figure out a new sort of way to, to get people to virally share with other good people.

Right.

You know, now that viral share thing, is that something that's, that's built into ActiveCampaign or is that a third party tool that, that you use?

So I'm using a tool called Up Viral. Oh yeah, Vir a l. Yeah, it works great. I mean, I, it connects. I don't know if I'm zapier or whatever pushing, but you know, my, my leads go into activecampaign and then they get pushed over to Upviral and upviral pushes them back with the, with their special link and it just goes into their record. And then when I write the email, it's literally, you know how you can say like dear first name instead of saying their name? It's literally just one of those. You just populate that little short code in there and Then they get their link and when they share it enough times, Upviral will say, hey, you've shared it three times. And it shoots them an email that says, you know, here's where to go. Get your.

Little perk, whatever that perk is.

Yeah, and that's wilco decrease. Yeah, we've had him on. He's a buddy of ours. Yeah, upvir. It's amazing. And so many different uses you mentioned incentivizing them are a perk. What are some best perks that you've found for your model?

Well, I mean you could obviously you could go out there. And again, this comes back to my idea of I really need to be watching quality of leads and.

You really don't. In my opinion, you don't want to be going out there.

Win an Apple watch because everybody wants an Apple watch. So looking for things that. So honestly, you guys, the first way I incentivized when I first started it was just kind of a minimum viable idea was I just said, hey, share it. If you get three shares, I'll give you a shout out, right? And you know, people like, people like to get recognized. So I get a lot of people even still because at the bottom of every letter it says if you share three times, you'll earn a shout out. So all that does is like up viral will register three shares. It shoots them a link to a form. They fill out the form. I give them a little shout out at the top of the letter. Every once in a while I'll do like 10 people at a time. So yeah, starting out, I wanted to really make sure that if somebody shared it, it's because they, they, you know, they're not going to just cheat, right? Like go and like pay some fiverr thing and have like a thousand people opt in, right? Where I did see some of that spammy stuff was when I did the sweepstakes. Because the sweepstakes was for two tickets to Traffic and Conversion Summit. So you know, that has a lot of value to it. And.

So I saw some goofy stuff there. But Upviral actually does a decent job of catching that when they're putting burner email lists, burner emails in there or whatever. But for me it makes sense to incentivize them with more content, more premium content, right? So they're reading, you know, I think of it this way, right? They are reading content, they want content. That's why they're on the list in the first place. That's why they open up, that's why they share it. So what can I produce that is more premium that I can incentivize them to share it, but not incentivize them to a point where they would cheat. Right. I mean everybody, some people are going to cheat no matter what because they're weird. But you know, the more irrelevant the sweepstakes is or the perk is to your exact audience, the more you're gonna get people that, you know, you might get my wife, who doesn't even really still understand what I do for a living, you might get her to opt in to get an Apple watch. Right. And start sharing. So. But she's not gonna do you any good on your email list.

Right?

It's all good quality.

I think some of the biggest issues we've had doing like contest type stuff has always come from like we've given away Apple AirPods, we've given away Bose QuietComfort headphones, we've given away iPads and stuff like that. And you always just get it just, it brings a bunch of junk on your list that aren't qualified for what you're doing. It's just so general. So what, what we've done that seems to work a little bit better is, you know, software products, like we'll just go buy a tool like, you know, click funnels or something like that. We'll pay for a year of clickfunnels for you because we know only digital entrepreneurs are going to care about that. You know.

That's right, that's right, that's right. And if you can find that, that thing that does get them, you know, to take action but doesn't, you know, doesn't bring a bunch of junk on, then you've got, you know, you've got a good contest there.

Yeah, yeah.

So I want to talk a bit about the monetization of the newsletter because it sounds like you've got a good sized team finding the content and curating the content. And you're also, you've got, you've obviously got lead acquisition costs. And.

So how, how does the sort of economics of all of this work? I know you've got advertising. Is that, is that the main monetization model or is there other ways that it's making money that we're not seeing?

All right, so there are three ways to skin the cat here. So the first one is advertising, of course. Right. So the beautiful thing about this letter for us has been that I haven't had to go out hunting too hard for advertisers because our advertisers are our readers. A Lot of times, like there's a lot of software companies which are a perfect advertiser for us that read the click. And so service based companies are another one that's really good for us.

Info. People selling information, products or consulting, training, stuff like that are also reading to stay sharp with their digital marketing stuff and stay up with it. And so what happens is people will read and read, read and they see an advertiser in there and they're like, well, maybe I should ask about advertising. So I've got that pretty dialed in in terms of what they want. I've got, you know, if somebody hits me up out of advertising, I, I have a loom, I send them to a loom video which explains more about it kind of qualifies them, lets them know the cost and what they can expect and you know, so it's kind of a funnel there where I send them some different content and eventually end up on a phone call with me.

And if they're, if they move all the way through.

So imagine, I also imagine too that, you know, you're driving, you mentioned this earlier, that you're actually driving clicks to other people's content, other people's business. You're cur. Curating stuff. And the people that you're curating are probably discovering that, hey, this thing sends me quite a bit of traffic. I can go advertise with them as well.

I've got, yeah, I just got right before I jumped on with you guys. I mean there's a CEO of a software company that I recommended and he's like, yo, you sent me a lot of traffic. Like what's, you know, what's cost for me to get that done again? So yeah, the advertising side is nice because it's kind of taking care of it itself.

Because I don't have to go, I don't have to have a sales team going, running around trying to catch people. And I have a lot of people in my network as well to tap into and bring me stuff there. I also have affiliate links in a lot of my stuff. So just like, you know.

You know, everybody else, you know, if I recommend something then I'm going to have, I'm going to have an affiliate link on it. We're very, very careful about what we will link to. You know, I've been doing this stuff long enough and the other people that are working on this, we've, we've played with just about any good tool. So.

You know, I have the things I recommend, like I recommend ActiveCampaign because I use it. And so we're very careful about not letting that line blur and sort of making sure that the affiliate links we put in there are two quality things that we believe in.

The third sort of prong on this is licensing. So we actually just rolled this offer out, which is the ability to, you know, people have been asking, can I use this, can I use that? And I'm like, well, yeah, you know, let me put. Put a product together on that. So I think a lot of people struggle with content marketing because content marketing is hard, right? Like producing content like you guys are doing on your podcast over and over and over again and just keeping the quality up. By the way, you guys have the most dialed in system for your podcast I've ever seen.

Thank you, man.

Which is awesome. Made it so easy for me. But, you know, getting to that level with your content marketing is hard. So we take that away by saying, like, look, we're producing a lot of content every day. You know, Joe mentioned earlier, he's like, I don't know how you're putting together this amount. It's like, well, we've got writers and there's a team every day on Slack. Like, we're hitting each other, backing up with story ideas. And so why not monetize that and allow people to use it in their own newsletters, on their blog, in their social channels? We have a lot of fun content that people can license. And it's a pretty easy model. It's, you know, four, eight or 20 pieces you can license per month. And then it's different price points for that.

Okay.

The fourth model that I'm excited to roll out is info, products, training.

Different things like that. So that's.

Would that be under your own umbrella? Like package it up within the team there? Yeah.

So the model I love to watch in here from a publisher standpoint is Harvard Business Review. So Harvard, if you go to the airport and you're standing in the little book section of the Hudson News or whatever, you're going to see like that little spinny thing that's like, you know, got all the Harvard Business Review and all it is, it's them pulling together and curating and stitching together a lot of the content they put on in their magazine and creating a single sort of book on leadership or management or whatever. So I'm looking at that as a model, sort of low price point, high volume sales, you know, like 50 bucks, you know, for, for a piece.

So, yeah, I think it's smart. I think it was the last time we were at the airport. Matt and I were looking at that. I was like, dude, this is freaking brilliant. Like, look how they're just like. And you know, they're not creating new content. It's just taking the best of. Yeah. And we do that same thing in a very micro way. You know, with the content we have here. You know, there's a lot of repurposing that can be done. And we're actually working on something right now for dm and it's like traffic and conversion rock stars. Because we've had so many people like yourself who have spoken at tnc. So we talked to them and they're like, yeah, we'd love to feature that. So we're like, cool. Well, we'll compile that from all of the notes that we have from our show. And now that could be a free piece of content over there, but of course could be packaged up into premiums or individual products as well.

That's really smart. Yeah, no, I love that.

At the end of the day, it's just our way of trying to get digital marketer to send us leads, but.

It'S a win, win.

So when it comes to like the sponsorship stuff, how do you, how do you do the pricing on it? Are people prepaying for like 30, 30 days or is it like a per email pricing? How do you, how do you, how does that work for the advertisers?

It's another great question. So, you know, I.

I am in high growth mode, right. So I'm buying a lot of traffic.

Yeah. So I feel like the CPMs are kind of like a moving target right now.

Since you nailed it. Yeah, that was the problem I stared at for a long time. I was like, because here's the deal, right? So I'm spending a lot of money on traffic to buy subscribers. And so if I lock you into a flat rate to advertise.

That'S not good for me because I'm growing really fast. Like there's a lot of these publications. Like, I have a sense, sense that the Morning Brew has hit the sort of law of large numbers, Right. Where you can't. You literally cannot put enough subscribers in the top to keep up with the churn that's coming off of the list every day when they unsubscribe. Which is why I saw the Morning Brew roll out more publications. Right. They now have Morning Brew, but they also have Retail Brew and they have.

There's a tech one now too.

Tech Brew. Yeah, they've. And that, that, that's smart because what they're doing is they've hit the law of large numbers on the morning brew, I would guess. And what they're doing is creating more ad inventory by standing up new publications. Just like NBC would stand up MSNBC to create more ad inventory and niche out the audience. Well.

You know, that's the problem that I ran into was I'm in high growth mode. Like I have plenty of meat on the bone right here to go to hundreds of thousands of subscribers. And so yes, the way I set this up is that I take a snapshot of my subscriber base and I estimate the amount of views you're going to get and I invoice you that for the month at the front end of the month. Right. So that I can get that cash in the door. Because the other issue that I'm dealing with, of course with a business like this is this is a true startup mentality where I have a burn rate and I'm burning cash. And if I. So let's say I would have set it up this way. This would have been bad.

I land a new customer, I start running ads for them in, let's say, April. I invoice them at the end of April and then of course it goes into their invoicing department and then 30 days later, so 60 days right there. At least some people go past that 30 days and then the whole time I'm burning fuel. Right, Because I'm buying traffic. So yeah, I mean, way to. Man, you nailed that. I didn't see that one coming until I actually sat down and put the ad offer together. But that's the deal is I estimate at the front end of the month and I haven't had any pushback on that at all. It's really kind of.

Well, it also feels like there's some baked in scarcity there too because it's like if you buy now, you're going to get it at the current rates. If you buy two months from now, it could be a lot more expensive. So it sort of adds that scarcity to get the advertisers off the fence now versus later, I would imagine.

I need to hire you as a consultant.

We deal with the same stuff in the podcast world, right? So we've got sponsors in the podcast world. Our CPMs are a moving time.

That's right.

Exact same kind of concept.

It's so funny. Yeah, it's so funny that you're nailing all these pain points. I'm like, oh, no. But like, yeah, that's absolutely. It is. You Know, by the time we get to the end of the month, I've grown, you know, and they didn't pay for that. So typically I don't get any pushback because, you know, they're happy with the results. Like my, my list is much bigger by the end of the month, and they're, they're not paying for that yet. But, you know, it was something I was willing to do rather than, you know, what I'm looking to do. Just like everybody else, I'm looking to lock people into partnerships where it's like, look, I want you to grow right with me. I want to send you a lot of traffic, I want to get your stuff in front of my audience. But I don't want to be renegotiating every month. I can't do it. Like, I've got to spend time on the product. I've got to spend time over here, over there. So I don't want to have to keep coming back and saying, okay, now it's this, now it's that. Instead, it's pretty simple. It's like, here's a snapshot, here's where you're at. It all goes into the invoice. Here's where my subscriber base was when I sent this invoice. Here's what I'm estimating, and if this hasn't happened yet, but if I got somebody that was unhappy about the amount of results I was getting them, I'll just do a make good where I send another one and just help them out.

It's a tricky business, that whole thing. Do you ever do. I mean, this would probably complicate and probably not work, but prepaid for an extended period of time.

Well, so they do. I mean, they invoice.

There is no system in place for them to go to my site and say, like, click on it and pay me through Stripe or something like that. Right now I'm doing everything via invoicing. But interesting enough, I had a conversation with the awesome people at Buy Sell ads the other day, and they do have that functionality where, you know, it'll tell them, like, where I have ad inventory available. So I'm doing some talk with them to see whether, whether I can. They can help me.

Get so that it's like, okay, you bought this. And then I go and I have the cash coming in immediately. That would be outstanding. But right now I feel like most of these people need a sales conversation, you know, I mean, I always think.

About a different kind of model for a lot of folks, too.

Yeah. I always say there's, there's. There's two different types of things we sell. There's stuff that can be closed on a page and stuff that can't.

Right.

It can be, you know, and this is something that I think eventually can be closed on a page. When I hit that, you know, sort of that level, you know, I think I'll have enough demand that I can close advertising out on a page. But for now, it does have to move to an offline sort of sales conversation.

Yeah. And I like the whole idea with the loom video. We do some similar type things. We have a. Essentially a sponsorship doc that shows them. Here are the options and the different option. Yeah. Or things that they could choose. Maybe there's a little bit of wiggle room, but either way, there's always a conversation happening before that ever actually, you know, is a buy right for them to place the order. Yeah.

Are you doing any with. With the click email? Are you doing any sort of segmentation or is everybody on the list getting the same email? Or are you doing anything to break people off based on actions they've taken or anything like that? Or is that something you have plans to do?

Okay. So, yeah.

One of the things that I realized early on is that the more data I have about the list, the better, easier it is for me to sell advertising. So what I do is every week, sometimes every other week, I'll run something called a quick pull, which ask them questions that I then come back the next day and report back. So I try to make it something that they would be interested in knowing the answer to. Right. So an example of this would have been a quick poll we ran right when the coronavirus really started to hit. I was like, how many of you are.

Pausing your ad spend, increasing ad spend, or leaving everything the same? And I had three options and they clicked on the link that they. And those people get tagged. Right. So those people get tagged as people that are buying ads. Right. They are digital advertisers in my activecampaign CRM. So I do the same thing trying to figure out. One of the best ones I ran was, are you doing marketing services for other people as a freelancer or an agency? Turns out 56% of the people on the list are agency or freelancers, which is very interesting to a lot of my advertisers to know. Right. So if I'm mailchimping or somebody, it's better to land an agency than to land a single business. Right. Depending on the size or whatever. But right so if I can get an agency to start using mailchimp with all their clients, that's a lot better deal than. So you know, they are valuable. I do.

In my pitch deck for the advertising. You know, one of the things I saw, I think one of the other companies doing was, was showing what companies people work at. Right. So, and that's easy enough to do. I have one of my people to go through and scroll through and look at the, look at the domain name on these emails. And so you know, we have people from Google, Facebook, Pinterest, LinkedIn, Uber, like you know, all kinds of people, a lot of universities and. But you know, I'm able to go check these domains. I'll do that every once in a while. I'd go check the domains but I also get a ton of replies back and I read a lot of that. So. And one of the things I'm looking at in there is their signature line. Like are they, is this person a business owner? Are they an employee? You know, are they.

So yeah, I mean it's important for me to be tagging them right now. I haven't been doing anything in terms of, but in terms of segmenting and changing the messaging in there. But I can see that happening as the list continues to grow.

Yeah. The reason I ask too is one of the things that we recently discovered about ActiveCampaign because we use ActiveCampaign as well for all of our email automation. One of the things we recently discovered is that on emails that go out, you can dynamically change content with inside of the email based on the tags. So what we've actually started doing is we've got customers and non customers, so we'll send the same broadcast to everybody. But down in the ps, the PS is going to swap out based on what tags. You have a customer of this already, you're going to see this content in the ps. If you're not a customer of this already, you're going to see something else in the PS and we're just dynamically swapping it out, but we're just writing the email once and I could see some, a lot, a lot of potential with a newsletter like what you're doing. Especially when you reached a huge scale, you can be doing things like, oh, this person tends to click on links about traffic and then you could go to sponsors and say, hey, I could put you to our traffic segment and maybe you can save a few and you could start, you know, segmenting off for sponsors based on things that people have clicked. I don't know, I'm just, I'm thinking ahead of like cool ideas that you.

Could do in the future. This is exactly, this is exactly what they're asking for. They're asking, you know, is there a way to only send to, to agency owners. Right. Or you know, people that work in services and you know, we're not there yet, but that's, you know, definitely something that they want, you know, they want to be able to segment. I mean, at the end of the day I'm competing with Facebook, I'm competing with Google. Right.

So.

What they're used to is being able to segment and target and all of it's self serve and it's also easy and so I have to keep adding features like that in order to continue to compete.

Well, you're basically building a platform, a micro platform in the terms of like a Facebook or a big Google type property. And yeah, as long as you can have these, you can almost like take a page from their book as you keep evolving. And I mean really you just have attention with a whole, you know, an audience here that you could just start using that data in all which ways. And I just love this model. It's fascinating me because I can see there'd be opportunity for pretty much any niche out there if you were to do something like this. Anyone who's small business owners in X niche just kind of replicate this type of model.

Yeah, I think you're looking for something that has enough information or news flow. Right. There's got to be enough flow there where, because again, we don't produce new content. You know, we curate, summarize and link out a lot. You know, every once in a while there are pieces inside the click that mostly I write that are, that are really tactical about marketing that are original pieces. But a lot of the stuff in there is just like, hey, this is awesome and here's what it is and go check it out. And hey, this is awesome and go check it out. And you know, this is good. And so if there's enough there, then yeah, this model can work in any niche.

Yeah, I'm actually just, I'm kind of thinking right now about the emails that I actually pay attention to in my inbox. It's all these days it's all either like personal emails, like I know Joe sent me an email directly or it's these kind of newsletter things. It's almost, almost all of the sort of marketer guru types that I subscribed to their list years and years ago. I've kind of Checked out of most of those. But the emails I do pay attention to on a daily basis are the click the Morning Brew. I get odd news.

What's the one with the futurist guy? Peter Diamantis is his.

I forget the name, but yeah, yeah.

He did bold and stuff. Something insider abundance. Insider abundance.

There you go.

I read like those are the emails that I to read. Just kind of thinking about it. It's like the personal emails and the ones that are sort of the curated newsletter, like quick bites here, check this stuff out. POD News is another one in the podcast world that we pay attention to. Yeah.

I mean, occasionally I'll get somebody to comment on my ads. They'll say like email question mark, you know, like, okay, boomer, Right. And so, you know, I laugh because, you know, email is an app these days. People are standing in line at the grocery store six feet apart from each other right now, scrolling through, you know, they scroll through their emails and you know what I find is that just like you almost have to treat this. This is a very mobile business. This is very much about the phone. Right. What I'm doing. And just like anybody else will tell you about trying to market an app, the biggest thing is to get them into a habit. And so a lot of people email me and say like, I hate that it's daily. Can you make it weekly? I'm like, no. Two reasons. One, if you don't want to read it daily, that's fine. You can either skip it or unsubscribe or whatever. But I'm looking to create a habit where you come into your office or whatever and with your coffee you're going to read the click. Right. Or you do it every night right before you go to bed or whatever it is. I'm looking to develop that. And then the second reason, of course, is that I don't want to go to a weekly is because it smashes my ad inventory. So the model depends on the daily email. And eventually I'll move to having a Saturday email once my ad inventory is.

Sold out and then bring them out and then different categories that you might find. Yeah.

So right now it's five days a week then.

That's right.

Okay.

Yeah.

Oh, and let's specify the click. Yeah, it's what? T-H-E C L I K K dot com.

Is that the best place to send them to sign up?

Yeah, the click.com.

The whole homepage is the sign up page.

We do put articles on the site for SEO reasons mainly, but.

The content gets Consumed in the email.

Yep. Right on. Well, Russ, and we always like to try to wrap it up with. Do you have a book or something that you just find yourself going back to pretty often or recommending others maybe even in the click that you can share with us here.

So two books that I would recommend and they're both by the same person.

The first one's called Built to Sell. So the parable.

About selling a business. So I recently this got through Selling a Business and that book was super helpful. They also have Built to Sell Radio, which is another great podcast to listen to alone.

That's John Warlow, right?

Yep. So John Warlow wrote Built to Sell. So if you're ever even maybe would sell your business, I would read that book. And it's a really, really easy read and it's really actually pretty great on.

Audio and it's like terrible form. Like they're telling a story as you read it. It's really good. Yeah. Yeah.

Really, really great. And then the second one by him is called the Automatic Customer.

Yeah, that's a good one.

Yeah. I mean it talks about first of all the importance of continuity or subscription revenue. But it also.

A lot of us listen to this will know like of course, subscription. But that book is really very tactical and talks about how to apply subscriptions, continuity, revenue to just about any business model you can think of. Because, you know, these days, like my car wash, I pay them 30 bucks a month and I wash my car whenever I want. Like, you know, it applies everywhere. And I think, you know, ever since we've seen like the whole subscription box and you know, thing and you know, all of the meal companies and everything. And I'll tell you, this coronavirus stuff as it forces us to become more digital is just going to create even more opportunity for people to move to a more simple model for their customers, which is just pay me this amount and it's kind of all you can eat or whatever that offer is. So Automatic Customer is another really, really great one and it's super tactical read.

Yeah, those are both super powerful books and they've been recommended before and that's a good sign.

I don't think I've actually read my. I don't think I've read Automatic Customer myself yet. So that'll be.

Oh, dude, Matt. Dan Ryan has only recommended it to us about 20 times.

It looks like you got a nice library behind you though. I know they can't see that on this audio.

I've read every single one of those too.

Every single three times.

All right, Russ, everyone check out the click. Remember, it's at T-E C L I K-K.com and we'll link it, of course, in the show notes, too. Russ, appreciate your time, man.

This was a lot of fun. Thanks for having me on.

Of course. Do you want to learn the hard skills necessary to support your favorite shows? Well.

Cool.

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Thanks so much for tuning into that episode. I hope you dug it. I know Joe and I dug it. I actually kicked Joe out of the room. He's not here right now. Because I wanted to tell you about a tool that I really, really dig. We use it in our business. We recommend it all the time. It's called Easy Webinar. And it's a tool that lets you do live webinars, automated webinars, hybrid webinars, and, you know, pretty much any other kind of webinar, if there are other kinds of webinars. But anyway, this tool is kind of like your all in one, do it all tool for anything webinar related. It's easy webinar. It's put out by a dude named Casey Zieman. He's been on the podcast. If you haven't listened to that episode, it's a killer episode. He's a really smart dude, but his software is amazing. It does everything. It's, you know, the title tells you exactly what it does. It's an easy webinar platform. And we use this in our business to run automated webinars all the time. We don't do a lot of live webinars these days. We like to do the kind of automated webinars where somebody can register and then it, you know, they can either watch it like 15 minutes later or they can watch it the next day, but it's just kind of always running. And it's a system that helps us make autopilot sales off of our webinars. Super cool tool. If you haven't tried it yet, you know, it's, it's, it's an amazing tool. And Casey is actually hooking you up, he said. For listeners of Hustle and Flowchart, I can't believe he's doing this, but he said for listeners of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, he's giving 25% off of the membership to use Easy Webinar. It's already super, super inexpensive for what it does and all the cool features it has, but he's hooking you up with 25% off because you're a listener of Hustle and flowchart. Go to easywebinar.com hustle. That's where you can get that 25% off discount. That's Easy Webinar.

It's a awesome tool. You're gonna dig it, so just go grab it. Check it out. Easywebinar.com hustle. See? No, not see ya. You'll hear me in the next show. I don't know. I don't know how to close these things. Go get Easy Webinar. Talk to you later.

Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliffs Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to, and give us your email address, and we'll send you the notes.

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