Ryan Levesque - How To Choose The Perfect Business For You

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Floatshark with your boy, my boy, Matt Wolf.

Joe. Hey, yo.

God dang it, Joe.

It's always a race to talk first. Not like we're talking enough on the podcast.

I have a disadvantage, though, because I gotta hit the record button.

I know I'm seeing this gap in time where I'm like, that's my in. Go, go. Seize the moment.

Joe's like those. Those. Those people on Facebook and Reddit and stuff that when a new post goes live, first comment, they just.

And you're like, what? Thumbs up. Why? I'm so famous in comment land of different social media networks for being just.

The first comment on everything.

People know me everywhere. I'm international love. They love my comments.

So you're skinny cheeks, 1943.

How do you know 1943?

I don't know.

How old do you think I am?

I don't know where that username came from.

I'll take it.

Yo, you're just a World War II buff.

Okay. That works in skinny jeans.

No skinny cheeks.

Yeah, but you need skinny jeans for skinny cheeks, right?

Not necessarily.

Which cheeks are we talking about, Matt?

It's your username, Joe.

I've never thought about the meaning behind it. Oh, man.

Anyway, let's talk about what we're gonna talk about on this podcast today.

I guess it's not Skinny Cheeks anymore.

Today we've got the Ask man. The Choose Man.

Choose man.

Ryan Levesque is joining us on the show, and this was a fun call. This was really. He has a new book that just came out called choose, and he's actually giving it away for free.

Bam.

If you go to. Let me look at this URL here. Choosethebook.com hustle. He said that our audience can get a free hard copy version of that book. So go to choosethebook.com hustle and Ryan's gonna hook you up with that.

In addition to. Not just a book you're getting, you're actually getting, like, the audiobooks for free when you go there. And you're also gonna get all these training videos. He has, like, a whole bonus members area, so it's pretty rad. Yeah, he's. It's probably the best, like, book giveaway type thing that I've seen done. So. Yeah, go snag it.

It's cool. Yeah, on this episode, I mean, we cover a lot of ground because we really wanted to dive into what his sort of choose methodology is. And it's. It's really a sort of framework for. To decide what business opportunities and what niches to. To pursue in your business. And he has like a legitimate framework. Like it's got to meet these five criteria and, you know, it's got to on, you know, a handful of things. I don't want to. I don't want to give spoilers away.

He has like the red light, yellow light, green light concepts that he. It's very objective. We'll say he has like a system to this whole thing. And he lines out exactly how to do a lot of that stuff. Obviously the book dives like super deep into it.

You know what my two favorite parts of this interview are?

Yes. No, I don't go for it.

My first favorite part of this interview is when he explains how picking your niche is sort of relevant to stock trading and like technical analysis of stocks. Yeah, I felt that analogy was really cool. When he explained it, I kind of got a little aha moment there. And then also when he talked about the home brewing niche. Yeah. Because we have a home brewing.

We said it's in the book. So once we get the book, he was like, oh, yeah, there's a cheat sheet right there. Just copy that.

Yeah, exactly.

Thanks, Ryan.

So we talk about a lot of good stuff and he's going to help you understand exactly which business models and niches to pursue. And that's really what chooses all. All about.

And it's really cool because don't think it's just for you if you're beginning or, you know, or for, you know, kind of like the novice of entrepreneurship. Because it's definitely can be very applicable to if you're a consultant for people who are trying to bring new products or offers into the world or just you adding another product line. I could see where Matt and I have probably lacked in some of this due diligence in the past and probably still currently. But, you know, that's just. We can always improve. Yeah, it's okay. So that's what we're gonna choose to do.

That we're gonna choose to do that. I did there.

Yeah. Yeah, it was smooth.

You know what you should choose to do?

I'm gonna tell you about these notes that we have for you.

That's where I was gonna go.

I thought so.

But I was doing my salesy, like transition. You know what you should choose, Joe?

I'm gonna choose to turn on my sales voice, my used car pitchman voice.

If you go to this website, tell them what they're going to get.

All right. So when they go to hustle and flowchart.com comp c o m p. You're going to get the free notes for this episode and the one previous to this or the one after, depending on the time you get there, because it's basically free for a limited period of time, about a week. And get the notes because we have someone taking the notes for every single episode, so you might as well snag some free ones.

Yeah.

Hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m p. They're there waiting for you, along with another episode. Free notes and make it a thing. Just check them out because they're really cool. I promise.

Yes. Yes.

Not in the vault yet.

They're not in the vault yet. We have not locked them away for good.

Not quite yet, but be quick.

Be quick, because they will. All right. We should go talk to Ryan Levesque.

Let's do it. Hey, Ryan. Welcome to the show.

What's up? It's awesome to be here. I'm pumped to dive right in.

Yeah, man.

So you've been on a. I know you've been on a tear lately with podcasts and media and all that stuff, so appreciate your time, man. With the new book coming out here with choose.

Yeah, no, it's awesome to be here. I've been looking forward to chatting with you guys and talking and, you know, I just want to earn a coveted place on that bookshelf behind you that is, like, that is my goal in life. I want book on that shelf and have a permanent place. If I've done that, I've done my job.

Well, you may have actually already done that. Cause I do have the Ask book. I don't remember if I have it on Kindle or on print, though.

I'm like, I know we both have that. I don't know. There it is.

This one right here.

Chooses on the way to my house. I know that much. It's in transit.

Awesome.

Yeah, man.

That's my goal. Cool.

Yeah. So I know we have a lot of listeners that have. Oh, Matt. Just found it.

There it is. There you go.

I wasn't going to sleep until I found it.

Awesome. I could have gone terribly wrong. I could have been like, it was on the bookshelf, but it was actually didn't make the cut.

So it's now in limited space over here. Yeah, we have a lot. I know everybody. Everybody. They should. A lot of folks know about the Ask Ask method in the previous book and just what that. I feel like it kind of, like, created a wave of fury around the whole serving your people different software tools probably came from that, including, I think you have your own. Right?

Yeah. It led us to, on the heels of Ask, one of the single biggest holes and questions people.

Came to us with was, this is great, love the methodology, but what tool do you recommend? And the truth is there was nothing and still to this day isn't anything on the market that does exactly what you needed to do. So I decided to invest in a company called Bucket IO, which is a technology for building quiz funnels, survey funnels, assessment funnels, and really is a hand glove software solution for implementing the Ask method in your business. It wasn't there, so I had to invest in it. And you manifest it. Law of attraction. That's it.

Yeah. So how do you. I know you came from a completely different background. So for those that don't know you, walk us through a little bit of your story, the origin story that got you to this point and then we'll take it from there.

Sure, man. Yeah. So you know, for me, a little bit about me. So I grew up blue collar. First person in my family to go to college. My dad worked nights our entire life, basically loading boxes on the back of a truck and my mom cut hair in the basement of our house. And so again, first to go to college in my family. When I got into an Ivy League school, it was like a really big deal in my kind of extended family. And so I studied at Brown and studied neuroscience and Chinese and, you know, being the great hope in my family, my parents expected that I was going to go to medical school and become a, you know, a brain surgeon basically. My best friend in college actually is a neurologist at the Mayo Clinic. So he went all the way. He went studied, we studied neuroscience together. He went all the way. He's a neurologist now at the Mayo Clinic. But I knew it wasn't for me. I didn't know what was for me. So after college I worked on Wall Street, I worked in investment banking and still had this interest in Chinese that I wanted to pursue. So moved from New York to China and lived in China for about five years with my wife.

Was working for the insurance company aig, basically opening up sales offices around the country. And it was around this time that I kind of had what I call my quarter life crisis where I kind of woke up one day and just said, wait, time out. Like, is this it to life? And at that point I had, you know, I was working a good paying job and I kind of had this moment where I felt like there was more inside of me. I felt like there was more to give. I felt like there was more that I wanted to do. And I just kind of had this moment where like I flashed my life forward and I saw myself and my boss who was close to retirement age. He had worked in the insurance industry his entire life. He was the president of China for aig. So huge responsibility. And I said, if I keep doing what I'm doing, that's who I'm going to be. I'm going to be that guy. And I have a ton of respect.

For that man. But I saw my life and I said, that's not my life. And ended up writing this crazy, like 20 page letter to my mom that my editor forced me to publish it in Ask. It was never meant to see the light.

Very embarrassing, vulnerable letter that I wrote to my mom, basically saying what I'm telling you, but in much more sort of emotional detail. And, and it was around that time that this is 2008. It was around that time that the world financial crisis hit. And one day I woke up, went to my office and found the Wall Street Journal Asia edition on my desk and the headline read, AIG to file for Bankruptcy. That was the moment that I discovered that the company I was working for was about to go out of business. And.

It played out a little differently. The US government ended up bailing out AIG and a few other companies. But this is when Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns and all these companies basically cease to exist. And I called my wife that day and I said, honey, I've obviously been talking about starting a business and doing my own thing for a while. I think this is the sign I've been looking for. And literally that day, guys, I wrote up my resignation letter, printed it up, signed it, run, ran to my boss's office because I was so afraid I was going to lose the courage to do it and gave him my two weeks notice. I sold everything that I owned. This is in Shanghai. Sold everything that I owned, moved in with my wife. Sounds like, well, why would you move in with your wife? She was in grad school in Hong Kong, so we both went to college together at Brown, lived in New York together where she went to grad school, then we moved to Asia together and she pursued a PhD at Hong Kong University. I'm in Shanghai, so I sell everything that I own, move in with her in student housing in Hong Kong. In your mid to late twenties and started our first business. And that's kind of how it all began and how it all started.

It was the first business, if I remember correctly. Wasn't it something like a Scrabble tile necklaces or something? Something along those lines.

You nailed it, man. You said it, not me.

That was good.

I could hook you up with a gift if you'd like.

You know you still got them.

Yeah, you know, it's funny. So it was. Yeah, you're exactly right. It was the first niche. And I talk about this in shoes, and everyone wants to know, like, how did you get into why Scrabble tile jewelry? Like, that's the most random thing ever. And the truth is, it is pretty random. But the reason why we went into it is, was at this time where I'd been, like, talking about starting a business. And every night, probably at dinner when my wife would come back from university, I'd be talking about some idea like, oh, what about this? Let's do this, and all these ideas. I think one day she finally got so sick and tired of hearing me talk about these ideas, she was like, all right, what about this? And she said, take a look at this website. It's called Etsy.com, which is a huge site today, but it just started in 2007, 2008, right around that time. She said, check out the site. She said, it's like ebay for handmade goods. And if you're not familiar with it, it's like a site where you can sell jewelry and crafts and things like that. It's like, for crafters. Look it. There's this jewelry that's selling like crazy. And it's exactly what you said. It's Scrabble tile jewelry. And it's jewelry that's made by combining Scrabble tiles with origami paper and resin in a very specific way that's made into pendants and pins and all sorts of brooches and all sorts of different things. And so she said, it's selling like crazy. And her logic, which was sound, was, look, we're in China. We have access to all the origami paper in the world.

We have access to inexpensive labor. We could set up a little factory in southern China, manufacture this jewelry, and import it into the United States. And I was like, we are not doing that.

We are not doing that. Closed the book on the idea, thought it was done. Then a couple weeks later.

We'Re having again, one of those conversations where I'm all over the map. I'm like, do we do this? We open up a McDonald's franchise? Do we do an Import export company, all the crazy ideas that I had. And she said, well, what about this gravel tile thing? I was like, honey, I thought we closed the book on that. She said, no, no, no, no, no. Check this out. She turned her computer to me, and she said, look at this woman's shop on Etsy. Now, she wasn't selling the jewelry. She was teaching people how to make the jewelry. What she was selling was a digital tutorial on how to make the jewelry. And we looked at it. My wife said, check it out. She's selling these things for, like, 30 bucks each, digital product, all profit. And look at how many she's selling every single day. See, on Etsy, you can see a person's sales history, just like ebay. So you can see how many someone's. How many products someone sells today, yesterday, the day before that. So she went back in for a month or two, and we found that this woman was selling on average, like, 30 copies a day of thing. And we did the math, and it's like, that's like 10 grand a month. And it's like all profit selling this little tutorial. So my wife bought it, and she's like, I think I can learn how to make this jewelry. I think I can learn how to make it, and we can teach people. I bought this woman's tutorial. It's not very good. It's homemade. It was done in Microsoft Word. There are all sorts of problems with it. I think we can do better. And so that's what we did. So we created this guide. Start selling. This is the first thing I ever made any money doing online. Start selling. This first month, we sell a couple copies. Then the next month, a couple hundred bucks, a couple thousand bucks, 5,000 bucks, 6,000 bucks, $8,000 a month. And I remember turning to my wife one day, I was like, honey, we're gonna get rich. Like, this is crazy. This is awesome. And then literally the next month, our sales went down to almost zero. And at this point, I quit my job. My wife's in grad school. She's not making any money at all. We're living in Hong Kong, which is one of the most expensive cities in the world. And we've basically run through most of our savings at this point. And we look at each other and say, oh, crap, what do we do? And my wife said, well, I'll finish my program. She finished her program. And she said, I'll get a job. And she. She got a job as a museum curator, which is what she went to school for as A museum curator in Brownsville, Texas, which, if you're not familiar where that is, it's. It's on the Texas Mexico border.

Wow.

Down south?

Yeah, super south. It's a historically important trade path between Mexico and the United States. But we moved and lived in the poorest zip code in America. That's not an exaggeration. It is the poorest city in America, and we lived in the poorest zip code in America. We had a tiny little. My wife in that job was making $36,000 a year. We didn't have enough money to ship our stuff back from China, so we had to donate and sell everything that we owned. We had one suitcase each, moved back to the States and basically started over. We had a 500 square foot apartment, bars on the windows, a mattress on the floor, two lawn chairs. That was our living room furniture. And we got those lawn chairs when we opened up our bank account in the US that was like the gift.

Oh, my God.

Soccer chairs like that, you sit on the side of the. We got one of them. But my wife's a good negotiator, so she asked for two. So we got two for each of us and that was it. A dollar fifty a week grocery budget. We didn't have any cable. We didn't have anything. No Netflix, nothing. And I just had a laptop, an Internet connection, and I drove my wife to work, to and from work, every single day in our old beat up car and just got to work. And I learned from that experience in the first business. And it's one of the lessons I talk about in Choose. The importance of choosing the right market and the importance of not going into a fad market. That's what the Scrabble tile market was. It was just a fad. It was like Beanie Babies or fidget spinners or one of these things that like, exploded at the time. And it's funny, from time to time I have people who reach out to me who, like, send me little photos and be like, yeah, my daughter got me one of those, or my mother got me one of those, or something like that. But it's largely forgotten. It's like one of these things that just poof. And I learned the importance of not going into a fad market. And it's one of the first lessons I talk about in choose is what I call one of the five market must haves. And the first market must have one of the factors you want to be looking at when you go into any market. It's something I learned from personal experience. It's something I learned studying not only the 23 niche markets that I've gone into in the last 10 years, but the markets my clients have gone into, our students have gone into. And looking at the factors that separate those markets that were successful from the ones that weren't, it turns out that there are these five market must haves. And the first market must have is what we call going in an evergreen market. Now, an evergreen market, in contrast with the fad market, the Scrabble market is one that was relevant 50 years ago, and it'll be relevant 50 years from now.

So things like insurance, all these foundational types of things. Okay.

Yeah, exactly. Things that are been around forever. So the example that I'll share is the next market I went into, which is. So I started.

Looking into. I said, all right, if this Scrabble tile thing is a hobby that lasted, like, five minutes, well, what are the hobbies that have been hobbies forever? What are the things people have been doing forever? And I started doing research and came to find that the oldest hobby in America, the thing that's been around forever, and it's the number one or number two hobby in America and has been for close to 100 years. It's gardening.

I was gonna guess fishing.

Yeah, fishing. Or something outdoorsy.

Something like a hundred million Americans consider gardening to be a hobby. Now, of course, it takes different shapes and forms. There's urban gardening, and there's.

Herbs, and some of it's vegetable gardening. And so there's different forms, but gardening in some way, shape or form. The other main hobby is reading, by the way. So it's reading and gardening, number one, and number two for anyone who's curious. So I started looking at gardening, and I started looking at sub niches within the gardening market. And I was making a big, long list of possible niches. And on that list was a market that came to mind, the market of orchid care. And the reason why orchid care, as in caring for the flower orchids, came to mind is because when we lived in China, my wife asked me to buy a bunch of orchids for the apartment. We did. And literally, like, within, like, a week or two, they all died.

Yeah, they're pretty easy to kill.

They're hard to keep alive.

Exactly. I was like, all right, well, if we had this problem, other people have had this problem too. So it's just, like, one of the ideas on the list. It sort of passed all the other tests that I learned to be important, and so went into the orchid market, applied the ask Method. So went through what's now come to be known as the ask method to understand that market at a deep emotional level, understand the buckets that exist in that market, the different groups or segments of customers in that market who have different needs, wants and desires, and then grew that business from nothing to $25,000 a month in 18 months. That point, we had the confidence for my wife to quit her job. So she quit her job. We moved from Brownsville, less than a mile away from the Mexican border, up to Austin, Texas, which is where we've been for about the last 10 years, grew that business to half a million dollars a year. And in contrast to the Scrabble market, that orchid market, that business that we built over a decade ago, 10 years later, still continues to pay our living expenses to this day.

Wow.

Now, I share that as an example. In contrast, when you have a market, when you choose a niche that checks off the boxes and sets you up for success not in the short term, but for years and potentially decades.

Got it. I love that. So, yeah, yeah, with the five mark markets, all that stuff, I know the book, you lay out so many different, different specific things that people can kind of start with. You also have a process. It looked like of it's kind of, I think it was a three tier process of really brainstorming then trying to kind of discover some of these markets. I know you use Google a lot, a lot of the keyword research, and then you finally make a move based off of all this stuff. Can you kind of walk us through a process?

Yeah. So at the highest level, right, so the highest level is brainstorm, test, choose. And I want to back up just for a second, and I want to talk a little bit about how this process came about and why.

This process. Like, why is this so important? Well, with ask, we joked about it's on your bookshelf. You know, the book sold literally hundreds of thousands of copies worldwide. And when you write a book like that, that reaches so many people, you get letters and emails from people who say the book changed their life. But you also get some letters from people who say, dude, I read your book and it didn't work.

As an author, when you get letters like that, it makes you wonder, well, what did I do wrong? Where did I miss the boat? Where did I mess things up? I kind of kicked off what became a three year research project to really understand why some people were having success and other people weren't. When I looked at the thing that was causing people to fail, all roads kept pointing Back to the same thing, and that's this. People were choosing bad markets. And there's this metaphor that I use in the book that I think is helpful to understand. And it's sort of like this. Like when you start a business, it's kind of like tossing your raft in a river, right? You can have the best raft money can buy. You can have the best equipment money can buy. You can hire the best crew in that raft with you to help you row. You can row 18 hours a day. But if that raft is pointed in the wrong direction or that raft is in a river that doesn't have any water in it, you're never going to get to your destination. That's what I realized is people were choosing bad rivers. In Ask, I share the methodology I used to enter 23 different markets. But what I didn't teach was how and why I chose those 23 markets. Specifically, what was it about those markets as opposed to the millions of other possible markets out there? What was it that separated them? And so within that, I started kind of being curious around, well, what is it that makes a good market? What does that mean? It's easy for the three of us to say, choose a good market. What the hell does that mean? Exactly. I got that question out all the time. Have I chosen a good market? And so I didn't know how to answer that question. And so I started looking at first the 23 markets that we've gone into. And candidly, some have been more successful than others. And so I wanted to know, what was it that separated the ones that were home runs versus the ones that were not as successful. I then did the same thing with our students and our clients and looked at our most successful students. What was it that separated them from everyone else? And what I discovered in that process is that there are seven factors, seven tests to determine if your market is a green light, meaning proceeding, a yellow light, proceed. But watch out. There's some red flags and you may want to be careful, or a red light, meaning you do not want to go forward with this thing. You want to start over. So with that as the backdrop to answer your question that led this off, the process is to brainstorm, test, choose, brainstorm a list of possible market ideas, possible business ideas. And I take people through in the book a number of exercises to do that. Then once you've come up with those ideas, run them through these tests. And you run them through these tests in such a way that if something doesn't pass the first test, that's it. You can just cross it off the list. But if it passes that first test, you move to the next test on the list. And then when you finish that testing process, you're left with a handful of possible ideas. And then it's the process of choosing how do you choose which one is right for you based on the final list of candidates that you've arrived at after this process. So at a 30,000 foot level, that is the process in a nutshell. And it's predicated on actual results. It's predicated on not theory, but what I and my students and my staff and my team, what we've seen actually work in the markets that we've had experience in.

I love that. And this is, it reminds us, it reminds me of a conversation we had with Todd Herman just a few days ago and how, you know, he deals with a lot of people in the sports market. Whereas if it's entrepreneurs, there's really no boundaries. Like, everybody thinks, oh, I could just do whatever you want. Well, you can. But the problem is there's a lot of avenues and rivers like you were saying, that are total red lights and you would never know. Maybe it's too late. And it's funny because we talked to a lot of successful people on the show and just in our network and they're not going through a process, a systematic process like this and still like it's going to hurt you even more, I would imagine, at that level, rather than just starting off where you're kind of scrappy and maybe not putting that much money into it.

No, I would say the thing that comes to mind when you said that immediately is what's interesting is personally me, I'm a very risk averse entrepreneur. I am not like your classic entrepreneur who goes all in, throws caution to the wind. I was very reluctant. I needed that kick in the pants of my company, aig, about to go bankrupt to give me light the fire under my butt to start my own thing. And I think there are a lot of people, at least in my world, that their situation is as follows. They're not living in a cardboard box on the side of the road. Their life is good, it is fine. But there is this fear. People are afraid screwing up their good life in order to go after what they really want. In other words, people are afraid to give up good in order to go for great. And the reason why I wrote this book is because I know there's so many people out there that are afraid to go all in. Like, I know for me, I'm Willing to do the work. Like, if you tell me that if I climb this trail, I'm going to get to the summit, I'm going to get to the top of the mountain, I'm willing to do the work. Most people are like that. They know if they say if I. If, okay, you're telling me if I climb this trail, if I walk this path, I'm going to get to the top, I'm willing to do it. But what scares people is when they get to the bottom of the mountain and they don't know if the path is actually going to get them there.

Right.

It's the space in between process is designed to help you have clarity and confidence that the niche, the market, your business idea is one that is set up to succeed. In other words, it's not one that you're just going to invest time and money and energy into and spend months or years of your life and find out that it's a path that was never going to take you to the top of the mountain. It's just a path that's going to keep spinning you around in circles at the bottom. Right. Nobody wants that. That's why I wrote this book and that's why.

I think for anyone who's in that situation, this process can help you in a huge, huge way. Got it.

I love it. Yeah. And it sounds like.

It could be applied to any kind of entrepreneur. It sounds like even if it's someone who's never had a beginning, just totally fresh to someone who's been in it for 20 years, similar problems all the way. It's just the extremes of those.

Well, that's one of my next questions. Was going to be, let's say somebody's already in a market. They've already picked their market, They've already kind of established, they're already kind of going down a path. And maybe they're listening to this, going, you know what the market I'm in, maybe that's not so evergreen. Maybe telling people about pogs isn't like the best path forward. You know, maybe they're in a niche that's like, I gotta get my slammer out, man. What advice would you give them? Would you tell them to start shifting into different niches and start kind of working on a backup plan or, you know, where does somebody go from there?

Yeah. You know, so there. People tend to be in one of two situations. Situation one, you've got an existing business. You may be listening to this right now. And if your business, if it feels like you've Been paddling that raft against the current and you've been busting your butt and it's like, gosh, I'm working so damn hard and I'm not getting to where I want to go. Chances are you may be in a yellow light or red light market. And the good news is that sometimes all it takes is a slight shift, a slight pivot, slight tweak in your direction to turn the thing around and have that current at your back. So I'd encourage you, if you're in a business right now, and maybe you haven't gotten the traction that you want to get, things are coming a lot harder than it feels like it should be coming to get things going, then I'd encourage you to go through these tests in the book to look at your current market, your current business. And if it turns out that your business is a yellow light or a red light, sometimes all it means is making a slight pivot. I'll give you an example. So one of the tests that we take people through in the book is something around. We call it the market sweet spot test, market size sweet spot test. And the reason for this test is one of the most common questions I get all the time is what size market should I go into? How do I know if my market's too big or too small? Like, am I limiting myself if I'm in too big of a market? And it's kind of like that, using our metaphor, it's like you don't want to toss your raft.

In a river that doesn't have any water in it. But at the same time, you don't want to toss your raft in the middle of the ocean because you're just going to get swallowed up whole, right? You need to be a cruise liner, you need to have a big budget, you need to have a cruise liner budget to attack an ocean sized market. If you're a little dingy, you're going to, the waves are going to crash over you and swallow you up whole. So how do you know if your market is too big or too small? And it's a question honestly I didn't have a good answer to for years. One of the things that we did in this research is once again, we looked at our 23 markets, we looked at our students markets, clients markets, and I wanted to see is there any correlation between market size and the success of that market? And what we found was fascinating. We found that every single one of our home run markets, the ones that just completely killed it, every single one of them were in this very narrow market size range. And the way we measured it was by evaluating the keyword search volume for each of these markets. And we did it using a tool called Google Trends, which you guys are familiar with. Use Google Trends to evaluate the size of these markets. And every single one of our failures or markets that never really took off in the same way were either outside in terms of the size of the market being too big or too small. They were outside that, like, narrow band. And literally for months, we were like, do. This was huge. When we found this, we're like, this is like, this is crazy. In the book, I call it the Rosetta stone markets, right? And so for months, we're like, do we share what these keywords are? Yes or no? Because, like, at the end of the day, you guys know this. Like, your keywords. Like, once someone knows, like, what your most profitable keywords are, your most profitable niches, you're gonna attract competition. Because other people that don't have imagination are gonna say, well, I'll just go, I'm not gonna come up with my own market. I'm just gonna go into that market. Cause that checks all the box.

Did we reveal this? Not reveal this? And in the end, we ultimately decided that, listen, we may attract some competition, but we can do more good in the world than we would otherwise by sharing what these keywords are. So in the book, I show you, number one, what these keywords are, and number two, how to determine what your bullseye keyword is. It's a process I take you through so you can compare your bullseye keyword against these reference benchmark keywords. And see, is your market too big? Is it too small, or is it in that sweet spot? So that's an example of one of these seven tests that I take people through inside the book to help determine, is your idea a green light or not? Now, to answer your original question, if you've got a business right now, sometimes it's as simple as if you're above that sweet spot, you may need to just niche down. Or if you're below that sweet spot, you may need to just niche up to get yourself into that range. And sometimes it's just a repositioning or redefinition of your business and your market that gets you into a position of success.

I like that a lot. It seems like with timing, there's a lot of folks, like podcasting, for instance, right now. We actually looked at the Google trends yesterday. Very upward trend right now.

It's like hockey sticking right now.

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous. Yeah, it really is. I'm like, this is perfect. But, you know, back in 2010, when it was around then, little early, you know, for a software company to create some cool analytics thing for podcasting, for instance, you know, a little early. So is that, like, is timing a factor that you kind of play into this whole thing?

Yeah. So one of the things that you want to look for, and I talk about this in the book, but it's the book. There's a section of the book that almost reads like a stock chart book where you're actually charting the actual trends of different markets. And so you want to be looking for.

There are a couple things you're looking for when you look at the cadence and sort of.

Trending of your market. So first thing is this. You want to look at is your market trending up or is it trending down? So you can do this by looking at Google trends and seeing is your market a growing market, a declining market, or is a stable market? You also want to look at the cyclicality of your market. So most markets have some cyclical nature to them. So if we look at the Orchid Care market as an example, you'll see that that market has some cyclicality to it. We just, at the time of recording this interview, passed one of the peak moments of that market, which is Mother's Day. If you look at that market, you see Valentine's Day and Mother's Day. There are two peak moments every single year. Things decline in the fall months in the Northern Hemisphere, Northern Hemisphere, and kind of reach a low around Christmas and then start to pick up after the new year going into Valentine's Day, peaking at Mother's Day, starting to decline into the summer. You see that same trend every single year. So that will give you clues into what your income is going to look like in your business. Now, if you look at a market in the health space, you're most often going to see a peak after the holidays at the first of the year, a slow decline over the year, a big drop between Thanksgiving and Christmas, and then it picks up again. You'll see that annual cyclicality. Now, why is that important? Well, listen, if you want to take a vacation every year in the month of January, you don't want to put yourself in a weight loss market because that's your most important month of the year.

If you have a market right now and there is cyclicality to it, you might want to balance that cyclicality with a business with a reverse profile. So an example of a market that has a reverse profile to the orchid market, just as an example, home brewing. So if you brew your own beer at home, that market tends to peak in the colder, more winter months and starts to decline a bit more in the warmer summer months. So you can offset your existing business with a business that has a reverse trend. So when you start diving into this and kind of geeking out over all this, you start to notice certain things. You also start to see signs of markets that are ripe for a rapid decline. So we talked about the importance of not going into a fad market, and I mentioned one of them offhand. You go to Google trends and you look at fidget spinners. Take a look at fidget spinners, what you're going to see is nothing.

A sharp spike into the heavens followed by a sharp decline back to nothingness. And when you see these sharp rises like that, and that's the thing that I would be keeping an eye out on podcasting. You see these sharp rises like this, you need to be careful. More recently, we saw this happen in a market that when I say it, you're going to say, oh, my gosh, yes. That caused everyone in the world, at least on Facebook, to be talking about this thing. That thing, of course, was bitcoin.

Nailed it.

Yeah, Bitcoin, right? I mean, there was a time, not that long ago, when you would go on social media, you go on Facebook, you could not turn the corner, corner without someone talking about bitcoin and how bitcoin is going to go up and it's going to go to $100,000, whatever. And then building courses and podcasts around bitcoin and membership sites and exchanges and all these things.

And Lamborghini, it's lots of Lamborghini talk.

Oh, my God, yes.

95% of those people are not doing anything with bitcoin. They're doing something else. Why? Because the market spiked up. And you can look at the Google trends. It's directly in line with when the price of bitcoin skyrocketed to the moon. I think it was at the end of 2017.

Sounds about right. Yeah.

Spiked up to the moon, fell off a cliff, and you can see the search volume did the same thing. So when you have a market that is a breakout market like that, you need to be careful because oftentimes it's unsustainable and it's a sign that it's a market that's going to pop. And so what I'm looking for is I'm looking for what I call Metronome. Markets, these are markets that just.

Tick along every single year. So I talk about the Orchid Care market. You look at that market, it has cyclicality to it, but it's this sinusoidal curve that just waves up and down every single year. And you're looking for markets like that that are going to sustain you forever. Now, it's not to say the pot. I don't want to poo poo on the podcasting thing, but it's just something to keep an eye out for. Right. Is this a market that. That is growing and will kind of reach this stability, or is it a market like Bitcoin that is going to explode up, be a breakout market, and then run the risk of crashing and like analyzing stocks, the more markets you start to analyze, you start to see these patterns over and over again. You start to see that there are signs that the market you're going into is a green light, it's a yellow light, or a red light. And I talk about what those signs are in the book.

Yeah, no, it's interesting. I mean, Joe and I, we've done a lot of stock trading in the past, but we've never actually applied this sort of technical analysis that you might do on stocks to businesses, which is so smart. It's funny because Joe and I kind of looked at each other and laughed a little bit because you mentioned homebrew, and that's actually one of the businesses that we own in that niche is the homebrew niche.

And we've seen this.

I'll tell you right now, I mean, I could have nailed that without you even telling me that. You guys are like the poster boys for home brewing. I mean, we could have been like, you are built for the home brewing court.

Got beards, got hats.

It's gonna sell. Exactly. You are guys like the poster children, San Diego.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I've seen that. We've looked at trends before, Google trends, and we use Ahrefs to dig maybe a little deeper, you know, into the keyword specifically. And yeah, it's super cyclical. And there's ways to mitigate that. You know, if I guess there's a scenario where you know that you have cyclical products, or maybe you are aware something's going to run up like that. And maybe you have a horizontal, you know, I'm thinking like verticals and horizontals. Those are almost like a vertical thing that, you know. Yeah, it's got a lifespan, or I could sell it off or just cash it out. But then like this horizontal feeder thing, maybe you Have a little bit more going on. Not just fidget spinners, not just whatever the latest gizmo is. But you know, you know that there's a system, it's going to happen. So I'm sure that there's like both sides of the coin there too.

Exactly. Yep. No, absolutely. And you can take advantage of those pops within the market. And I think that's the sweet spot, is you found an evergreen market, one that is sustainable, one that you can take advantage of these pops happening within that market. One of the other market must haves I talk about, it's natural for us to bring it up is the second market must have in that list. So evergreen is the first one that's necessary but not sufficient. So evergreen is where you want to be, but it's not sufficient. People have been drinking beer for hundreds of years.

Egyptian days. Yeah.

For the next hundred years it's probably pretty safe. Like we can probably like it's a pretty safe bet. Unless we have like Prohibition 2.0, in which case market explode, chances are you're going to be fine. Right. But it's not enough to be in an evergreen market. You also need market must have number two, which is an enthusiastic enthusiast market. Now what I mean by an enthusiast market is that's in contrast to a problem solution market. Problem solution market is someone's got a problem in their life, they solve it and then they move on. Like they never want to think about that thing ever again. An example that makes it very clear is something like the wart removal market. Warts are evergreen. People have had warts probably for, you know, thousands of years. They're probably not going away anytime soon, but yet it's a problem solution market. So a market where people, if they've got that problem, they want to solve it, move on and they don't want to talk about it. It's like it's even uncomfortable for us to be talking about it right now.

You mean there's no enthusiasts out there on warts? I mean, Matt was the only one.

Yeah, exactly. No one's posting on social media. Like, look, guys, I got a wart today.

Check this one out, bro.

Yeah.

There'S no. Like, that doesn't exist.

Right.

It's not happening. There are no Facebook groups. There are no, no one signing up for an email newsletter on like wart enthusiasts. Like it just doesn't exist.

Yeah.

Compare that to a market like the dog market. If you've got a dog, you're basically signing up for the next 10 years of your life. To be a consumer in that market. And I know because last year my wife convinced me to get a dog. We got a dog for home protection purposes. She is a menacing four and a half pound chihuahua rescue that they found on the side of the highway that we brought into our home mainly to scare off would be burglars. And so she's four and a half pounds. And I'll tell you guys, we spend more money on this damn dog than anything that I can ever remember bringing into our home. The doggie toys, the doggie treats, the doggie food, the doggie clothes. When it's, you know, it's cold, she needs a doggy sweater, the doggy bed, the doggy this. A million things and it's. There's no end now difference. The differentiating factor is in a problem solution market, you have to constantly chase after getting a new customer. You get a customer, solve the problem, and you got to get a new customer. In an enthusiast market, you get a customer and if you do a good job, you can sell to that same customer in the same market over and over and over again. And I realized along the way with some of the mistakes that I made, One of the businesses that we went into that didn't have success was the flea removal market. I thought fleas Evergreen been around forever. Fleas are like a problem that's not going away, but it's one of these things. You solve that problem, someone doesn't. No one's talking about fleas in their carpet, in their home, whatever, in their furniture. No one's talking about it because it's embarrassing. And when you solve it again, you're not joining the flea removal club of Austin, Texas, just on the. But you can think about it. There's like 10 Chihuahua clubs of Austin just in my city. There's a Chihuahua Club in every city in America. There are clubs, Facebook groups, there are newsletters. There are just groups galore. And that represents a market that is an enthusiast market and that's the type of market you want to be looking at. Home brewing is a great example. I talked about the home brewing market in Shoes.

Looking forward to getting that book because we will probably follow whatever advice you give us in that book.

Definitely. Yeah.

I love it.

Yeah. I just love that knowing these factors and there are many factors and the five key ones that you were saying you can kind of mold maybe. Yeah. If you're just in it for a quick win or if you're just starting off, it's a great way to learn if you know. Yeah, maybe It's a solution aware. And you know you're only just going to get one customer each time. It's not going to go mainstream, but it's a good way to kind of play with these markets and figure out how to bridge the gap between them. If you can connect all of these, I'd imagine you're onto something interesting now.

Totally.

Do you have. How does it look like? Do you buy and sell businesses yourself personally, or do you have thoughts about that?

I did a little bit of that early in my career and really my path kind of was as follows. I launched three businesses on my own. Scrabble Tile 1, the Orchid Care one. And then my next business was Rocket Memory, teaching people how to improve their memory. Truthfully, the reason why I started that business is because my parents wouldn't get off my back about not using my neuroscience degree. So I had to do something that was related to the brain. So I went into the memory improvement market. Then after that, I started partnering with people in different niches that either had expertise in that market, experience in that market, a business in that market, to go into those different niches, and along the way learned a lot of things, was involved in the acquisition of a few businesses, the sale of a few businesses. But for me, what I realized, my passion, the thing that I became really good at and the thing that I enjoyed the most is really what I talk about in choose and Ask. And that's the process, the process of identifying a green light market. It's like Warren Buffet, where he's thumbing through.

Annual reports of all these companies and then finally finds one that checks off his investment criteria and he goes all in. And I kind of rush when I'm doing that, going through all these different niche markets and studying them and looking at them and what I find when that checks off all the boxes, it's like this jackpot. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding kicks off. And I'm like, this is a huge opportunity. I've got to find a way to get into this market. And then the process of once I choose that market or you choose that market to go in and then ask the questions to understand that market at a deep level. I talk about some of the markets that I've had experience in and been successful in. One of them is the golf market. So that's one of my markets. But here's the thing. I've made literally millions of dollars in the golf market, and I don't play golf.

I love it.

I don't play golf. And I share that story because I think a lot of people think that in order to be successful in a market that you need to be the expert your like, you need to be, you know, you need to be the world's foremost expert in home brewing or whatever. But one of the things I talk about in choose is that it's something one of my mentors shared with me and I'll share it here. And it's remember this to the fourth grader, the fifth grader is a genius. And I know this firsthand because I've got kids now and my older son who's 7 years old, the 9 year olds that he hangs out with like they are, they know more about the world than I know about the world.

It's the gods.

But adults are the same way. Like you can be nothing more than a learner teaching other learners. I learned this myself back when I was at Brown for two years. I was a neuroscience instructor in Neuro one, which was the introduction to neuroscience course at Brown. And I did it as an upperclassman and I led a section, meaning like a weekly section of the course for two years. And I sure as hell did not know anywhere near as much as our professor, our lead professor literally wrote the textbook. He runs the neuroscience program at mit. He's one of the most knowledgeable neuroscientists in the world. But he was struck with the curse of knowledge. He knows so much about neuroscience that when he's teaching the subject, when he's trying to convey that knowledge to underclassmen, there's a gap. And so in the book I advocate, one of the strongest things I advocate for is no matter what business you're in, to get into the business of selling education and expertise. Meaning if you're in the home brewing market and you're selling home brewing equipment, you guys should have a course on selling, teaching people how to brew at home, right? Home Brewing 101, right. If you are a stationary store and you sell stationery in a brick and mortar store, you need to have an online course teaching people hand lettering and better handwriting. My guy that owns the gym that I work out at, my personal trainer, he has a local gym here in my hometown, but he also has an online membership site teaching people how to work out using the same techniques he does for his clients in his gym. And I believe every business should have this. So much so that it's the number one business model I advocate for that people start with and or add to their business. So with that in mind, you don't need to Be the expert. You can partner with people. You could just be on the journey of learning yourself and just teaching people what you learn. And that's exactly what I did at Brown. I took the course a year earlier. I did well in the course and I was just teaching people what I learned. And you don't have to be any more of an expert than that. You really just need to be that fifth grader to your customer's fourth grader.

Now, does passion factor in at all? Because I know that's sort of common wisdom that you hear all the time is, you know, find a thing that you're passionate about and you know, if you're not, you're obviously not a golfer, but you're in the golf niche. So. And I'm also, I can also see your 5 market must haves on my screen right now. And I know passion isn't one of them. So I'm kind of curious, you know, what are your thoughts there?

Yeah, I'll talk about passion.

It's a common question I get right. So people want to know, should I pursue my passion or should I pursue the idea that's profitable? And sometimes those things are aligned, sometimes they're not, Sometimes they're at odds with one another. The way I'll answer it is like this. In this process of figuring out what market to go into, what business to start, there's a process that's very much external, which is what we've really talked about up until this point. You're analyzing specific factors in the marketplace. You're looking at things like the keyword search volume. You're looking at things like the amount of competition online. And all of these things factor in to determine if you've got a green light market or a red light market. But there's a second piece to the puzzle, and that's the introspective piece where you're actually looking inside of yourself. And in this process of writing this book and the sort of three year research that I did leading up to it, I discovered that there are four different types of entrepreneurs. So people tend to fall into one of four buckets, if you will, when it comes to starting your business. And for you guys, I'm going to kind of put you on the spot as I kind of touch on each of these four, I want you to think about which one you most resonate with, which one you sort of identify with the most, because I think your listeners will be very curious to know which one best describes you. Let's do it. So four types of entrepreneurs first one is what we call the mission based entrepreneur. Now, mission based entrepreneurs are the type of person that have a cause that they would die on the hill for. In other words, they've got some wrong that they want to make right in the world. I talk about in the book Christy Kennedy. Christy is a mom. Her son is autistic and was bullied in elementary school. And so as a mom, she had to do something about it. She had to go talk to the principal and do something about it and get involved. Well, before you know it, she decided to make it her mission to eliminate bullying from her son's school, which then led to eliminate bullying from the school district, which then led to building a company that's now worked with thousands of schools and school districts around America, eliminating bullying from their schools. And it all started because of this mission that she was really drawn to. Now, not everybody's wired that way. Not everybody has like this mission that they're really drawn to. Some people do, but not everybody. In contrast, you also have what's called the passion based entrepreneur. And this is why I'm going down this road. To answer your question, passion. There's some people that are very much drawn to making their passion their vocation. In other words, they've got something that they're super passionate about. Like in the book, I talk about Charlie Wallace. He's a guitarist, traveling musician, loves the guitar, wanted to find a way to make the guitar and playing the guitar and learning the guitar the focus of his business. And he built a very successful business teaching people how to play guitar online. It's a business that's grown to over $2 million a year that he started from scratch. Now he's an example of someone who's taken his passion and transformed it into his vocation. Now, the difference between those two, it may seem like, well, what's the difference? Mission based entrepreneurs are the type of people who want to move people away from something negative. Passion based entrepreneurs are the type of person who want to move you toward something positive and that which they love. But not everybody's wired that way. You got mission based, you got passion based. The third type is the opportunity based entrepreneur. There's some people that are just wired in such a way that they look around and they're constantly saying, how is it that nobody's created a solution to this? They look around, they're like, oh my gosh, I've got an idea. And they just sort of have this radar that's always up. They're kind of the entrepreneur in the Most classic sense of the word. Now, you've also got a fourth type, which is actually my type, so spoiler alert. Anyone curious? My type is the fourth type, which is called the undecided entrepreneur. Now, the undecided entrepreneur is the type of person who knows they want to be their own boss, they want to start their own thing, but they just have no idea what that thing is going to be. And for that person in the book, I recommend doing what I did, which is to start with what's called a practice business. Just like when we learned how to drive a car. The first car you learned how to drive in probably wasn't like your dream car, right? But it's a vehicle in which you learn the skill of how to drive, and you've been able to transfer that skill to your next car, your car after that. It's a skill that you have for the rest of your life. And very similarly, you guys know this. There's certain skills that you adopt and learn when you start a business. Setting up your website, setting up Facebook ads, building a product, setting up your shopping cart, doing email marketing. All the things you need to learn. And if you relieve yourself of the pressure of having to find that forever business, take that pressure off your shoulders and that anxiety associated with that, and just start with the practice business, you can relieve yourself from focusing on the outcome and instead focus on the process.

With that in mind, we got four types of entrepreneurs. I'm curious of those four, if you had to pick one, if there's one that maybe resonates more with you than the others, or maybe it's a combination. Do you think you're more mission based, passion based, opportunity based? Or were you undecided when you were first starting your business?

So when you were. Oh, when we were first starting. Is that the criteria?

Go ahead, whatever comes to mind.

My gut was like, the whole way through, I was like, shit. I feel like I can relate to all of this because I have the mission thing pops up when I'm like, okay, made enough money. Well, I want to do a bigger thing, and we definitely have that. I'm undecided, personally, I would say.

I mean, the undecided thing is definitely, like, for me because when I think about it, there's a lot of things that I really enjoy doing, but I can't really say any of the stuff I'm doing in the business is stuff that I'm really passionate about. I enjoy doing a lot of it. But the stuff we're doing now, I can't guarantee is going to be the same stuff we're doing five years from now. If a bigger play comes along, we'll probably, you know. And so I would say I'm between opportunity and just kind of undecided based on. On those criteria.

Yeah, I would say the past 10 years are approving of that too, where it's like every couple years there's something new. We're always testing. The podcast is a catalyst for a lot of that.

It's not uncommon for anyone listening to this right now for you as a human being and as an entrepreneur to evolve over time. For me, in my case, I started very much undecided and I needed my wife to pick something to finally say, all right, let's just do this damn thing and let's just make it a practice business and if it works, great. If it doesn't, I'm going to learn the skills of starting a business and have since evolved to kind of really discover what I'm personally most passionate about and what that mission is. So it's not uncommon for you as an entrepreneur or anyone listening to us, to evolve over time. Now, here's the thing. With each of these entrepreneurial types, there's a light side and then there's a shadow side. And the reason why I want to touch on this is because of your original question around following your passion. So for the mission based entrepreneur, if you're more of a mission based entrepreneur, the thing you need to watch out for is many mission based entrepreneurs tend to struggle with charging money or the thing that they believe in, because they're so drawn to that cause, they believe in it so passionately that they struggle to make a business and a profit out of it. Passion based entrepreneurs, the thing you need to watch out for if you're passion based is you run the risk of taking something that you were once passionate about and transforming it to something that you're dispassionate about. Because if you love watercolor painting or gardening or playing the guitar and suddenly becomes your job, it's not that much fun anymore right now. If you're an opportunity based entrepreneur, the thing you need to watch out for is that you don't wake up one day, 10 years later and look back and say, why the hell did I spend the last 10 years of my life doing this? You may have filled your bank account, but you've left this real empty sense inside. And if you're undecided, the thing you need to watch out for is that you don't constantly swim in that safe swimming pool of talking about that next big thing you're going to do or living in fear of failure or analysis paralysis. So there's a shadow side to each of these that you want to be aware of and make sure that you are cognizant of it. So that way, when you are making that all important choice and choosing in your business, you're choosing something that's not only going to fill your bank account, but it's also going to fuel your soul at the same time. And for anyone who's curious, if you're not sure what type of entrepreneur you are, what type of business you should start based on your lifestyle goals, your personality type, there's actually a free assessment that I take people through in the book and anyone can do it. You don't even have to buy the book. If you go to choosequiz.com I'll take you through a series of questions to help you identify not only what type of entrepreneur you are, but what type of business you should start that's going to fit with those lifestyle goals, your personality type, if you're more introverted, more extroverted, the type of entrepreneur you are, and a number of different factors.

Perfect. Thank you. And we'll link that in the show notes. And also I know you guys have a URL you guys made for us to grab choose your book. And I believe that is choosethebook.com hustle.

That's right. Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. I want to do something super special for you guys because you guys are awesome. You're in the home brewing market and you're doing some great things. And I wanted to say thanks for really doing this interview. So what we've done is this is you can of course buy the book anywhere. You can buy it on Amazon, you can buy it at Barnes and Noble. It's 24.99 in the United States, $33.99 in Canada. But I wanted to make a limited number of hardcover books available for free for your listeners. All I ask is that you pay, just cover the shipping so we can ship it to you and I'll ship it to you anywhere in the world. When you do that, I'm also going to hook you up with over $200 in bonuses as a way of saying thank you, including the audiobook. So if you're the type of person, listen, if you listen to podcasts, if you're like me, probably like listen to audiobooks. So I'm gonna hook you up with that. Second thing I'm gonna hook you up with is one of the biggest questions I get from people is, so you got these seven tests in the book. What are examples of markets that pass all the tests? Like, what are examples of green light niches? And so what I've done is I've put together my personal list of the 25 niches I would be going into in 2019 if I had the time. These are niches that check off all the boxes. These are niches that, like I said, I would be going into. I've gone into 23 of them. This would be 24, 25, 26. This is my list. So you can use these either as go into these markets if you want, or use them as inspiration to give yourself ideas of other things that you might want to go into. I'm going to hook you up with that, plus a whole bunch of other cool stuff. Over $200 in bonuses. Just pay a few bucks shipping and handling, and I'll ship you a hardcover copy of the book anywhere in the world. And I think you said the link that we've set is choosethebook.com hustle and being honest about this, we only have a limited number of copies here in our office that we can do this for. So we've set a few aside first come, first serve, and would be happy to do this for anyone who's interested to dive in further.

Thank you, man. We'll link that up as well. And yeah, after I bought the book, I hopped into the bonus section, and that thing is pretty badass. And yeah, like you said, I love the fact that not only the audiobooks there, because I'm always undecided which one's best for this book, you never know. But you have all the supplemental materials in there. So anybody who's listening, you actually have those graphs that you were talking about. So you're doing it right, man. Thank you. Cool.

I appreciate that, guys.

So once again, choosethebook.com hustle and also choosequiz.com go check those out. Thanks so much, Ryan. This has been amazing. Yeah.

Appreciate your time.

Awesome. Thank you guys so much. Super appreciate it. Thank you. All right.

Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. Before taking the time to listen, we want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliffs Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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